Israeli ground forces enter Gaza

January 4th, 2009 at 11:28 am by David Farrar

The Herald reports that Israeli ground forces have entered Gaza. This is a sad day, after they voluntarily left it some years ago.

Whether will be sucessful with its aims to cripple remain to be seen.

While I am a defender of Israel’s right to respond to the thousands of rocket attacks Hamas launches at Israel, it doesn’t mean I agree with every aspect of their response.

Will this make things worse in the long run? Sadly it may.  The status quo of “Let Hamas keep firing rockets without a response” seems a pretty bad strategy also. This is the problem in the – there are no good options, just a series of bad to very bad options.

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198 Responses to “Israeli ground forces enter Gaza”

  1. JC (840 comments) says:

    “This is the problem in the Middle East – there are no good options, just a series of bad to very bad options.”

    It would be fairer to say that the West has made the options bad by demanding standards of retaliation that it never followed itself in any of it’s past wars.

    JC

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  2. Murray (8,835 comments) says:

    All the plaos have to do is stop firing missiles at civilians and it all stops.

    They just don’t want it stop because they like killing.

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  3. Southern Raider (1,376 comments) says:

    For all the guilt ridden lefties. This shows what nice people Hamas are. Hamas have killed more Palestinian civilians in the last two years than the IDF.

    “Fatah officials in Ramallah told The Jerusalem Post that Hamas militiamen had been assaulting many Fatah activists since the beginning of the operation last Saturday. They said at least 75 activists were shot in the legs while others had their hands broken. ”

    And before you continue on your Israel bad rants. Even Palestinians want Hamas gone.

    “Wisam Abu Jalhoum, a Fatah activist from the Jabalya refugee camp, was shot in the legs by Hamas militiamen for allegedly expressing joy over the IDF air strikes on Hamas targets.”

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  4. Southern Raider (1,376 comments) says:

    And Matt McCarten going on about Israel. How about

    “Meanwhile, sources close to Hamas revealed over the weekend that the movement had “executed” more than 35 Palestinians who were suspected of collaborating with Israel and were being held in various Hamas security installations. “

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  5. goodgod (1,363 comments) says:

    Can’t understand what you’re saying DPF: you say no response is out, armed response is out and status quo is out.

    Contrary to popular opinion war is good for some things, it moves things along when the diplomatic illusions of peace are revealed as impotent.

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  6. Southern Raider (1,376 comments) says:

    And Red Ken once again showing is true colours. I’m glad this wanker finally got voted out.

    “Earlier former London mayor Ken Livingstone addressed the crowds in Trafalgar Square.

    He told the BBC the protests sent “a powerful message” to the prime minister that the public would not tolerate Israel’s “war crime.”

    The MSM is once again doing a terrible one sided job of reporting what is happening. Like the picture in the SST of a dead baby and it is only until you read the fine print it was the son of the Hamas armed forces leader and not some random kid playing in a street.

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  7. dad4justice (7,406 comments) says:

    Well said Murray.

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  8. beautox (408 comments) says:

    No doubt we will hear the predictable cries of “Violence never solves anything”. Which is simply not true. Heinlein says:

    “Those who cling to the untrue doctrine that violence never settles anything would be advised to conjure up the ghosts of Napoleon Bonaparte and of the Duke of Wellington and let them debate it. The ghost of Hitler could referee, and the jury might well be the Dodo, the Great Auk, and the Passenger Pigeon. Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor, and the contrary opinion is wishful thinking at its worst. Nations and peoples who forget this basic truth have always paid for it with their lives and freedoms.”

    imho the problem is that in the past, Israel has not been violent enough. It’s always been hampered by most of the western spectators insisting on a measured response, which, as JC pointed out, has not been the way the west has conducted itself in previous conflicts. Overwhelming force is what solves things. Measured responses are the way to prolong conflicts..

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  9. jastowns (157 comments) says:

    Ever here some fool say that Palestine was never a state? Or even more ridiculous, that Palestine never existed?

    If you are one of the many idiots who say that I say to you:
    That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Palestine was a State even in My Grandmother’s life time. Of all the Jewish Prime Ministers only one has ever actually been born in Israel.

    Even in Biblical times Jews never made up more than 3% of the population. Palestine is pronounced Falestine, if you go there no one says Palestine. It comes from the word Philistine you know the people the Jews were always writing about killing in the Bible. Note the Story of Samson who supposedly killed 1,000 Philistines with the jawbone of a donkey before a woman Delilah tricked him and cut off his magical hair which gave him super strength.
    Yes, I am not making that up.
    Quote:
    “And she made him sleep on her knees; and she called for a man,
    and she caused him to shave off the seven locks of his head:
    . . . and his strength went from him.”
    (Judges 16:19)
    This is the kind of crap that Jews try to pass off as history. Christians believe it too yet basically none of them have bothered to read it since they were being brainwashed as small children and had it read to them.

    He also supposedly killed a lion with his bare hands and also carried the gates of a city he destroyed away on his shoulders and also got water from the ground after praying to god because he was thirsty after he killed 1,000 men. Awe how nice of the Jewish god to give water to his favorite mass murderer. Read the book of Judges it’s full of all kinds of fanciful fairy tale bullshit.

    You can’t make up shit more wacky than the Bible stories.

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  10. jastowns (157 comments) says:

    Palestine was under Ottoman and British occupations and also Roman but under Rome (who they kicked out) and in between occupations they enjoyed autonomy.

    The Bible is pure BS. Moses didn’t free Hebrew slaves, Cyrus the Great did and that is a historical fact. Moses is copied from the Misis mythology in Egypt as are the trinity gods Isis, Ra and El (Israel) and Horus aka the Jesus myth. History vs Religion

    Quote:
    Cyrus the Great (c.600–529 bc) King of Persia, founder of the Achaemenid Empire in Persia. He overthrew the Medes, then rulers of Persia, in 549 bc, defeated King Croesus of Lydia (c.546 bc), captured Babylon (539 bc) and the Greek cities in Asia Minor. Although he failed to conquer Egypt, Cyrus’ empire stretched from the Mediterranean to India. He delivered the Jews from their Babylonian Captivity, sending them home to Palestine. His decree, held in the British Museum, is regarded as the first declaration of human rights.
    -World Encyclopedia (that’s a real encyclopedia not wiki [however even wiki agrees on this])

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  11. Patrick Starr (3,675 comments) says:

    Hamas, is an acronym of harakat al-Muqāwamat al-Islāmiyyah, meaning “Islamic Resistance Movement”
    By its name alone it will never commit to peace.
    There again it could appropriately mean; Here’s Another Murdering Arab Shithead

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  12. jastowns (157 comments) says:

    It was a Persian King Cyrus the II who freed the Jews from what is now Egypt but at the time was part of the Babylonian empire. The ancient Jews were saved by ancient Iran. Cyrus entered Babylon (now Baghdad) and replaced an unpopular king, a King who worshiped the Moon god Sin rather than the more popular god Marduk, the Harvest God (whom the famous Hanging Gardens was made for). The People wanted the king to worship Marduk not Sin so they welcomed Cyrus in ridding the corrupt king. The Persians did not believe in slavery so all the slaves in the Babylonian kingdom were set free not just the Jews.

    That’s right it was Cyrus not God who freed the Jews from Egypt. And they were lead by an Egyptian (not a Jew and yes that river in the basket story is nonsense) into what is now Palestine/Israel. There, the nearly all male force, (because slaves were usually men used for labor and the women probably opted to stay prostitutes rather than wonder around in the desert) immediately began their long stint of raping and murdering and constant warfare. Read the 4, 5, 6th books in the Bible and get a feel for the blood craze and if you really want something sick read Leviticus and learn the details about sacrificing animals and sleeping with your own daughters and all the laws that would result in you being put to death (by very creative means) if you broke them.

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  13. Southern Raider (1,376 comments) says:

    Jastown you are a rambling incoherent piece of leftist shit. It you’re going to quote history at least get your facts right.

    Cyrus didn’t release the Jews from capitivity in Egypt, it was from Babylon hundreds of years later. The Jews where taken into capativity when the first temple was destroyed.

    Also there has never been a Palestinian state. It was a description of the general area. Arabs were a nomadic people and tended to move around. They had no need for a country or defined borders. The Arab League disputed the break up of the Ottoman empire because they wanted just one big Arab area and no individual countries (this included Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Israel and Iraq.

    You are making yourself into a bigger joke with every post you right.

    You really need to stop reading Mein Kampf

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  14. Southern Raider (1,376 comments) says:

    DPF I think Jastown is pushing the boundaries of racism, bigotry and libel.

    There is no issue with debating the current issues with Reid, Spoff etc in an adult, thoughtful and educated manner.

    However Jastown is using this blog to spread his anti-semitic bullshit.

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  15. jastowns (157 comments) says:

    Yes out come the tolls,well this is history pal
    Now contrast the World Encylopedia with what Zio-Wiki tries to say about Palestine. Here is the world encyclopedia.
    Quote:
    Palestine Territory in the Middle East, on the e shore of the Mediterranean Sea; considered a Holy Land by Jews, Christians and Muslims.Palestine has been settled continuously since 4000 bc. The Jews moved into Palestine from Egypt c.2000 bc but were subjects of the Philistines until 1020 bc, when Saul, David, and Solomon established Hebrew kingdoms. The region was then under Assyrian and, later, Persian control before coming under Roman rule in 63 bc. In succeeding centuries, Palestine became a focus of Christian pilgrimage. Muslim Arabs conquered the region in 640. In 1099, Palestine fell to the Crusaders, but in 1291 they in turn were routed by the Mamluks. The area was part of the Ottoman Empire from 1516 to 1918, when British forces defeated the Turks at Megiddo. The Balfour Declaration encouraged Jewish immigration. After World War I, the British held a League of Nations mandate over the land w of the River Jordan (now once again called Palestine). Tension between Jews and the Arab majority led to an uprising in 1936. World War II and Nazi persecution brought many Jews to Palestine, and in 1947 Britain, unable to satisfy both Jewish and Arab aspirations, consigned the problem to the United Nations. The UN proposed a plan for separate Jewish and Arab states. This was rejected by the Arabs, and in 1948 (after the first of several Arab-Israeli Wars) most of ancient Palestine became part of the new state of Israel; the Gaza Strip was controlled by Egypt and the West Bank of the River Jordan by Jordan. These two areas were subsequently occupied by Israel in 1967. .

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  16. reid (15,593 comments) says:

    Have a look at this Haaretz column.

    This week I spoke with my students about the Gaza war, in the context of a class on national security. One student, who had expressed rather conservative, accepted opinions – that is opinions tending slightly to the right – succeeded in surprising me. Without any provocation on my part, he opened his heart and confessed: “If I were a young Palestinian,” he said, “I’d fight the Jews fiercely, even by means of terror. Anyone who says anything different is telling you lies.”

    His remarks sounded familiar – I had already heard them before. Suddenly I remembered: About 10 years ago they were uttered by our defense minister, Ehud Barak. Haaretz journalist Gideon Levy had asked him then, as a candidate for prime minister, what he would do had he been born Palestinian and Barak replied frankly: “I would join a terror organization.”

    I hate all the terrorists in the world, whatever the purpose of their struggle. However, I support every active civil revolt against any occupation, and Israel too is among the despicable occupiers. Such revolt is both more just and more effective, and it does not extinguish one’s spark of humanity. And perhaps I’m just too much of an old codger to be a terrorist.

    But, and pay attention to this but, if a normative young person has a spontaneous answer that is different from mine, and that answer also escaped the mouth of an Israeli lieutenant general, then every individual must see himself as though his son is running with the wrong crowd. If things were the other way around, our son-whom-we-loved would be a damned terrorist, almost certainly, because he is of the third and fourth generation of refugeehood and oppression, and whence cometh salvation? He has nothing to lose but his chains.

    Whereas we, his mother and father, would be weeping for the departing son because he will never return to see the land of his birth and us, except in his photograph on the wall as a shahid, a martyr. Would we detain him before he carries out his plan? Would we be able to hold him back if we wanted to? Would we not understand what he is feeling? What Ehud Barak understood in his day – would that be impossible for us to understand?

    Young people who have no future will easily give up their future, which they can’t see on the horizon. Their past as guttersnipes and their present as cursed unemployed idlers lock the opening to their hope: Their death is better than their life, and their death is even better than our life, as their oppressors – that is how they feel. From the day they are born to the day they leave this earth, they see their land ahead, to which they will not come as free people.

    There are no good and bad peoples; there are only leaderships that behave responsibly or insanely. And now we are fighting those whom a goodly number of us would be like, had we been in their place for 41 and a half years.

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  17. Don the Kiwi (1,338 comments) says:

    jastowns.

    You are a pathetic small minded uneducated idiot. Shit, boy , you can’t even spell properly.

    Nor read, it appears. Cyrus freed the Israelites from their Babylonian captivity, of which there were two. This is actually confirmed in the Bible, if you read the whole scripture – don’t just take isolated books, some of which are allegory and not necessarily actual events.

    It was several hundred years before that, that Moses led the Jews out of Egypt. And its not only the Bible that says that – ancient Egyptian cuneiform writings say the same thing. Biblical history is supprted by the history of other cotemporaneous civilizations.

    Now – go to “Pallestine” and repeat what you said on this blog – the Muslims would probably shoot you. The Jews and Christians give do you the honour of recognising your own free will, though they don’t agree with you.

    You small minded twat.

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  18. Patrick Starr (3,675 comments) says:

    Where is the possibility for Israel to exist, and have peace in the ME with this?

    “The 1988 Hamas Covenant (or Charter) states that the organization’s goal is to “raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine, for under the wing of Islam followers of all religions can coexist in security and safety where their lives, possessions and rights are concerned.” It further asserts that “The Islamic Resistance Movement is a humanistic movement. It takes care of human rights and is guided by Islamic tolerance when dealing with the followers of other religions. It does not antagonize anyone of them except if it is antagonized by it or stands in its way to hamper its moves and waste its efforts. Under the wing of Islam, it is possible for the followers of the three religions – Islam, Christianity and Judaism – to coexist in peace and quiet with each other. Peace and quiet would not be possible except under the wing of Islam. Past and present history are the best witness to that.”

    The telling bit,
    “the organization’s goal is to “raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine…..It does not antagonize anyone of them except if it…. stands in its way to hamper its moves”

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  19. jastowns (157 comments) says:

    Personally the crap we are fed from any religion needs checking against the facts,we all know facts are not any religions strong suit
    Another encyclopedia says
    Quote:
    In the Bible, Palestine is called Canaan before the invasion of Joshua; the usual Hebrew name is Eretz Israel [land of Israel]. Palestine is the Holy Land of Jews, having been promised to them by God; …
    -source Even the Bible admits that The Philistiens were living there for Joshua invaded it and the Jews self proclaimed the land by say that lol GAWD promised it to them. Sorry but you can’t just write a book saying god gave you land that people were already living in and then start murdering everyone there.

    If you want you can go read the bs that wiki writes.

    There you have it Zionism is as old as Judaism with a certain swath of people believing that God granted then land which only their ethnicity could live on. The Samson story and countless others praise the murder of Philistiens/Palestinians.

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  20. jastowns (157 comments) says:

    Stop getting your info from wikicrap it is a propaganda tool for fools
    as i said don the kiwi fact is something the bible dose not have alot of,so dont just write your propaganda back it up with some facts like i have you brain washed shmuck

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  21. Patrick Starr (3,675 comments) says:

    “Sorry but you can’t just write a book saying god gave you land that people were already living in and then start murdering everyone there”

    seems the way of the world since the dawn of time. Maybe you should find your roots….and set an example

    (Hint…it’ll be under a rock somewhere)

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  22. Adam (552 comments) says:

    Another day another rant from Jastown. Zzzzzzzz

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  23. Turpin (342 comments) says:

    Thanks for that Reid, I can understand the position and feeling of each of them, BTW how do you insert a post like you did into your post?
    I was sent this today.

    Nizar Ghayan was killed on Thursday. Nizar Ghayan was the face of terror toward Israel.

    A professor at the Islamic University in Gaza City, as well as the most respected Hamas military and spiritual strategist since the 2004 assassination of Hamas founder Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, no one knew better than Ghayan the maxim he taught his students – “Whatever Israel does to Hamas, Hamas will win. If you kill us, we will become martyrs, the most beloved of God and the Palestinian people, and we will win. If you refrain from killing us, whether from fear or political expedience or moral considerations, we have only cemented our victory. For us to win, we only need to survive.” Every move Israel makes to undermine and crush and topple Hamas, he taught, only builds support for the defiance, the resistance and the culture that Hamas symbolizes and embodies.

    Imagine what your life would be like if your neighbor launched anywhere from 30 to 100 rockets, missiles and mortars into your backyard on a daily basis. All of your appeals for him to cease fall on deaf ears – both from your neighbor and from the surrounding community. Your neighbor has only one purpose – to make your life so intolerable and so miserable, so as to drive you out of the neighborhood for good. The community says it is your fault your neighbor is so angry at you – that you should give your property to him and just abandon what was given to you by your ancestors.

    You can’t walk freely on your own property in the likelihood of something falling out of the sky. Even though most of the missiles fall harmlessly into an area of your backyard that holds nothing of value, occasionally one finds its way into your living quarters – but you never know which one might be ‘the one’ to completely alter your life. You endure day after day of inadequate sleep because the bombs fall constantly and are no respecter of day or night. Your children huddle in a corner and shake uncontrollably from the uncertainty the fear of not knowing what is to happen next brings. You can’t sell your property (who wants to buy it to live as you do?) and you don’t have enough money or resources available to walk away from it and start elsewhere. It takes you two minutes to get into a ‘safe’ room, but the siren warning of another incoming missile only gives you 60 seconds to get there. If you manage to get to the room in time, there are not enough adequate supplies of food, water and medicine because all of the neighborhood stores have left for fear of losing their businesses. Since the businesses have left, there are no jobs – how do you then make a living?

    Imagine what it would be like if this neighbor embraced a culture of death so severe that he would arm a bomb and send one of his children to your front door with instructions to detonate it as soon as you appeared.

    This is the reality of living with terror. For over seven years “harmless rockets” have been falling into a population area of just under a million people living in the mid-south of Israel. In just this past year of 2008, over 3000 have landed on Israeli soil. Until now, Israel has responded with restraint. Contrary to what has been popularly reported, up until seven days ago, Israel provided 70% of the electricity, water and sewage to the residents of Gaza – even in the face of this barrage from the democratically elected terror organization, Hamas. The Israeli Defense Force (IDF) is permitting sick and wounded Arabs entrance into Israeli hospitals – even though the casualties to Israeli citizens of this incessant terror assault has tripled over the last year. Right now, Israel is allowing 100 trucks a day of compassionate, humanitarian relief aid into the area – even in the midst of a war situation. Who does that?

    Because Israel embraces a culture of life, because they are concerned with the ramifications of collateral damage to civilians, the IDF engages in a tactic that has come to be known as “Roof Knocking.” These Arab militants hide themselves, their weapons and explosives beneath mosques, inside of school classrooms, hospitals and private residences. Before bombing a target considered to harbor such activity, the IDF will call the owner of the building on their cell phone to tell them they have ten minutes to evacuate the premises. Before dropping the actual ordinance, they will drop a ‘sound bomb’ meant to scare away anyone still lingering in the building or the surrounding area. Frequently (seeking to exploit the Israeli embrace of life, even for the enemy), the targeted Arabs will send their wives and children to the rooftops to deter the military firing on them. Even then, the IDF will first bomb just a corner of the building to scare them away before sending the real missile. Who does that? These are the people who are consistantly painted as insensitive, immoral and uncaring of human life.

    The most explicit indication of how intensively this culture of hate is taught to Arab children was brought home to me when I looked at a map contained in an Arab elementary school geography book only to realize there was no trace of the country of Israel to be found on it. So pervasive is this culture of death, it is ingrained into their children from the earliest ages that in the nobility of life the highest honor bestowed on an individual is to blow themselves up taking as many Jews as possible with them. These thoughts and images are taught to their children before they are even able to walk.

    Ghayan believed in and promoted such a culture. He sent one of his own sons to his death as a suicide bomber within Israel. His four wives and 11 children died with him as he chose not to leave the building he was in – choosing instead to hide behind his family and use them as human shields. If these people hold so little value over their own lives, why should we think they would care about anyone else’s?

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  24. Southern Raider (1,376 comments) says:

    You can’t state that Philistines = Palestinians. You are making up shit as you go along.

    Judaism is the longest surviving culture without change.

    The Philistines are dead, nix, gone. You can’t just reinvent them. You sound like Hitler with the 4th Reich

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  25. Glutaemus Maximus (2,207 comments) says:

    Let me think again who actually conquered the Ancient Egyptian Civilisation last?, once so proud and advanced, and turned the clock back?

    Yes it was the Islamics!

    Over 3000 years of learning and culture, 3 Millenia of learning and advancement.

    The the Rag Heads moved in and slaughtered all the Blue Bloods and Intelligensia, and then enslaved all lands. Up to the White Nile.

    Does that go far enough back in time Jastowns?

    And it is the Islamics who want El Andalus back in possession.

    Just because there is a 20Euro admission fee into the Alhambra, and Granada TV produce Coronation Street.

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  26. jastowns (157 comments) says:

    Truth is Israel didn’t exist until 1947 and it is Israel that is wiping Palestine of the map. YOu may want to see this as well The Myth of the “Generous Offer.” it seems to be another common Zionist mythology. Like Occupation 101 says, Prisoneers might mke up 90% of a jail physically but the 10% control everything. And that is what was being offered.

    And finally i get sick of running into Zionist who talk about the “Security Fence” AKA the Apartheid Wall i would like to send them there to see what it is all about

    Here is an excerpt

    Quote:
    Israel openly is building what senator Hillary Clinton calls a security fence, but is in reality an apartheid wall. First off, the wall, and it is certainly a wall, is not even on the Green line. It is not on Israel’s boarder; it cuts deep into the West Bank, effectively creating a land grab by cutting off a portion of Palestine from the rest of it. They are sandwiching a swath or territory between the Israeli boarder and the apartheid wall which is already being peppered with racial/ethnic settlements of religious fanatics who hold the ridiculous belief that “God” gave then the land they are stealing and murdering people to take.

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  27. Don the Kiwi (1,338 comments) says:

    jastowns.

    So I’m a “brainwashed schmuk ” am I?

    Actually, I’m a Christian – Catholic to be precise. And I’m proud of it.

    I’ve been listening to bigotted small minded idiots like you for years. Sometimes, some of them decided to actually engage in a sensible discussion. Some of them have since, even become Christian. But all sensible and logically supported views – even if the logic is faulty -are relevant because belief is something that science cannot proove, and is subjective to the individual, even though Truth per se is Objective.

    So tell me jastowns, if, as you say lol GAWD does not exist – have no proof of existence – has no facts to back Him up;
    How did this world and universe and all within it come into being? Science doesn’t have an answer, only theories.

    But what’s your brilliant scenario?

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  28. jastowns (157 comments) says:

    Heres some info israel do not want you to see,those that think israel is only for peace are fucken kidding themselves,but more importantly trying to keep others from making an informed decision for themselves
    do not take the word of the trolls on this site,do not take my word just do some research for yourselves and have your own opinion

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  29. reid (15,593 comments) says:

    Re: the issue of this being a fight for Israel’s survival, I think that’s bollocks. The reason I think that is on a previous thread.

    Turpin, you use blockquote tags [blockquote]text[/blockquote] but use left and right arrow brackets in the code not the square ones.

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  30. Patrick Starr (3,675 comments) says:

    “And finally i get sick of running into Zionist who talk about the “Security Fence”

    what a coincidence. The Zionists were just saying the same thing about running into boats carrying rabble rousing congresswomen- they’re sick of it!

    Seriously jastown – I think you should get help

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  31. Fletch (5,726 comments) says:

    Jastown, sorry but you’re dead wrong. There never has been a nation called Palestine.
    You can find the whole history of this name HERE.

    As someone pointed out above, it has always been a description of the general area.

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  32. kiwi in america (2,336 comments) says:

    jastowns
    Your grasp on history is tenuous.
    The Balfour Declaration, issued not long before the end of WW1 when the Allies began to size up the German and Turkish territories they desired, signalled the intention of the British to use their Palestinian mandate to create TWO states, a Palestinian and Jewish state in the land between the kingdom of Jordan and the Mediterranean. The Peel Commission of 1936/37 drew up proposed boundaries to reflect the reality of the migration of Jews to the region BEFORE WW2. By the outbreak of war, the population of Jews and Arabs in the coastal strip was roughly equal. The land in the region in the 19th century had been largely barren and sterile and poorly and sporadically farmed by tenement Arab farmers. The vast majority of the land that became the 1948 Israel was legally acquired at market values from the absentee land owners who mostly lived in Lebanon. The Arab tenants were only displaced in the way any tenant who lives in a rental property that you might buy in NZ for your own use would be – its a long standing legal term called vacant possession.

    By the time the United Nations revisited the issue of the two states proposed, the Jewish population of the Jewish territory had hugely increased due to the exodus of post war European Jews. The State of Israel as an independent state was formed and recognised by the UN on May 14 1948. The Kingdom of Israel and the notion of the ancestral home of the Jews in the land of Palestine is thousands of years old. The Jews connection to Jerusalem as its Holy City predates any Islamic claim to the city.

    Ehud Barak’s offer gave the Palestinians 97% of what they asked for and they would’ve been compensated the 3% by the offer of other land outside the West Bank. The offer was supported by the US, the EU, all the moderate Arab nations and all major parties in the Israeli Knesset. It was rejected by Arafat because he and the other Palestinian radicals have no desire for peace with Israel, only its total destruction. That is the outcome Israel haters like you seek.

    The security fence virtually eliminated the menace of the suicide bomber – again, had the Palestinians been genuine partners for peace the Israelis would’ve done with the West Bank what they ended up doing with Gaza and the Sinai.

    Jastowns, why are the Egyptians supporting the Israeli action in Gaza? In fact the only supporters of Hamas in the Arab world are their fellow extremists like Iran, Syria and Hezbollah who all seek the destruction of Israel. All other Arab nations have stayed very silent and quietly support Israel in their action.

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  33. jastowns (157 comments) says:

    Don the kiwi i never said only jews have been brain washed,like the pope is a hitlers child but you still think thats OK

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  34. Spoff (275 comments) says:

    Anybody here know how many deaths have been caused by Hamas rockets in the past six or twelve months?

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  35. jastowns (157 comments) says:

    At the end of the day isreal is stealing land from the palestinians and then trying to convince the world they are the victims,it is not working despite all the zionest frail attempts to hold on to the illusion

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  36. Patrick Starr (3,675 comments) says:

    Anybody here know how many innocent civilians have been killed by Islamic terrorists in the past 7 years? – what’s you point spoff?

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  37. jastowns (157 comments) says:

    Here is what a true jew has to say about zoinest lsrael

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  38. kiwi in america (2,336 comments) says:

    spoff
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Qassam_rocket_attacks

    I’ll let you do the totalling. Why launch rockets into civilian areas knowing that they can cause death unless it is your intention to do just that – cause civilian deaths. Only costly Israeli early warning systems and building strengthening have avoided more casualties. I note Hamas dont warn Israeli citizens of their rocket attacks while the IDF texts civilians near its Hamas targets in Gaza. I dont recall too many nations who warn the targets of their attacks BEFORE the attacks.

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  39. Don the Kiwi (1,338 comments) says:

    jastowns
    Post 2:53 pm.

    Another deep and profound pearl of wisdom from – you guessed it – jastowns.

    I note that you never answered the question.

    And of course the Pope is Hitler’s child. Aren’t all Germans?

    jastowns, you are a brain dead illiterate troll.

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  40. kiwi in america (2,336 comments) says:

    jastowns
    Your posts are devoid of any substantive evidence, are repleat with a breathtaking ignorance of history and ooze venomous anti-Semetic invective.

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  41. reid (15,593 comments) says:

    “It was rejected by Arafat because he and the other Palestinian radicals have no desire for peace with Israel, only its total destruction. That is the outcome Israel haters like you seek.

    At the Paris 2001 negotiations George Tenet CIA director who was the lead middleman recounts in his excellent memoirs “At the centre of the storm” [p90]:

    “We were in the Israeli cabinet room, right outside Ariel Sharon’s office, putting the final touches on a possible pact, when the Israeli’s began demanding a side agreement, some sort of cover they could hide behind if things went sour or, more likely, could leak to the press to sabotage the whole process.

    No sides, I told them.

    No deal, they said””

    He then also discusses the games Arafat plays as well. Point is, lots of things happen in those negotiations, to lay total blame for resolution failures at either side’s door is just not true and quite simply irrelevant.

    One thing people have glossed over so far in all these Gaza threads, are the internal politics both in Israel and in Palestine.

    For example we haven’t really discussed whether the Feb election is relevant. I’ve been following the Israeli polls and the various players but I don’t have a good handle on Israeli politics.

    Neither have we discussed the significant internal power-plays between Hamas and Fatah. A lot of posts seem to refer to Palestinians as one big blob. They’re not, at all.

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  42. GPT1 (2,043 comments) says:

    You are being uncharacteristically cautious DPF. Correctly you say that status quo is out, do nothing is out – that leaves ground invasion. This is important for a number of reasons not the least of which is that the IDF has to recapture some of its aura of undefeatability (if that’s a word) lost in Lebanon. Will it completely stop Hamas or the rockets? Unlikely, but it might unsettle/degrade Hamas enough for the PLA to take over. Israel needs to get in, blow up and kill as many Hamas and Hamas facilities as possible, allow a PLA regime, declare victory and get out – and hope for the best (or repeat as needed).

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  43. jastowns (157 comments) says:

    Don the kiwi to answer your question i could throw anything out there and it would be as valid as what you believe(fantacy)

    kiwi in america keep watching fox news,by the way it is owned by a zionest,bill Oriely needs some fan mail he is running very short,maybe your time will be better spent there

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  44. Spoff (275 comments) says:

    I am afraid kiwi in america is a bit off beam with his history again. The Balfour declaration which, incidentally, was a letter from Lord Balfour to his mate Rothschild did not signal the intention of the British to use their Palestinian mandate to create TWO states.
    In fact the letter was very clear for it contained this admonition:

    “…. it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine.”

    It is not possible to create a race-based State without offending this clause.

    The British confirmed this in the White paper of June 1922 which concludes:

    “Nor does the special position assigned to the Zionist Organization in Article IV of the Draft Mandate for Palestine imply any such functions. That special position relates to the measures to be taken in Palestine affecting the Jewish population, and contemplates that the organization may assist in the general development of the country, but does not entitle it to share in any degree in its government.”
    http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/brwh1922.asp

    One should be very careful about using the Peel Commission recommendations. Ben Gurion repudiated them:
    “In internal discussion in 1938 [David Ben-Gurion] stated that ‘after we become a strong force, as a result of the creation of a state, we shall abolish partition and expand into the whole of Palestine’

    The population in Palestine before partition was non-Jewish ( 1,237,000 ) Jewish ( 608,000 ), app. 2 to 1 Palestinian.

    “The security fence virtually eliminated the menace of the suicide bomber”
    I believe about 1200 Palestinians per week are arrested for crossing it. The suicide bombing was ended by Hamas declaring a moratorium.
    http://www.sott.net/articles/show/141669-One+Thousand,+Two+Hundred+And+Seventy-Six+People+Per+Week

    The Historic claim is quite simply not tenable. Professor of History at Tel Aviv University, Shlomo Sand, deals with this question:
    “But during the 1980s an earthquake shook these founding myths. The discoveries made by the “new archaeology” discredited a great exodus in the 13th century BC. Moses could not have led the Hebrews out of Egypt into the Promised Land, for the good reason that the latter was Egyptian territory at the time. And there is no trace of either a slave revolt against the pharaonic empire or of a sudden conquest of Canaan by outsiders.

    Nor is there any trace or memory of the magnificent kingdom of David and Solomon. Recent discoveries point to the existence, at the time, of two small kingdoms: Israel, the more powerful, and Judah, the future Judea. The general population of Judah did not go into 6th century BC exile: only its political and intellectual elite were forced to settle in Babylon. This decisive encounter with Persian religion gave birth to Jewish monotheism.

    Then there is the question of the exile of 70 AD. There has been no real research into this turning point in Jewish history, the cause of the diaspora. And for a simple reason: the Romans never exiled any nation from anywhere on the eastern seaboard of the Mediterranean. Apart from enslaved prisoners, the population of Judea continued to live on their lands, even after the destruction of the second temple. Some converted to Christianity in the 4th century, while the majority embraced Islam during the 7th century Arab conquest.
    http://mondediplo.com/2008/09/07israel

    See also:
    http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/959229.html

    “Ehud Barak’s offer gave the Palestinians 97% of what they asked for ”

    Sounds great but it wasn’t the reality. The reality was about 22% of what they wanted and was a “bantu” style settlement. The PLO even considering it was what caused the people to turn to Hamas.

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  45. jastowns (157 comments) says:

    kiwi in america is a disinfo agent and will try to baffle people with his bullshit take on what is real
    that or hes a fucken moron

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  46. Spoff (275 comments) says:

    Patrick Starr

    It was a perfectly innocent question. I simply did not know. From kiwi in america’s link I learn that 15 have died since April 2001. I still don’t know how many died in 2008 or since the ceasefire ended, which is the given cause of this current attack on Gaza.

    If there is a point, I suppose it is this. Many posters here have been vehemently defending Israel’s attack as a retaliation for a crime they know very little about. This seems at the least rather foolish.

    I do know that since New Year, of the first 30 Palestinians to die, 25 are either women or children.

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  47. reid (15,593 comments) says:

    “Israel needs to get in, blow up and kill as many Hamas and Hamas facilities as possible, allow a PLA regime, declare victory and get out – and hope for the best (or repeat as needed).”

    Wouldn’t work, GPT1. Do you think Fatah would be any better than Hamas and if so, why? History suggests otherwise, does it not?

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  48. Russell Brown (403 comments) says:

    For all the guilt ridden lefties. This shows what nice people Hamas are. Hamas have killed more Palestinian civilians in the last two years than the IDF.

    “Fatah officials in Ramallah told The Jerusalem Post that Hamas militiamen had been assaulting many Fatah activists since the beginning of the operation last Saturday. They said at least 75 activists were shot in the legs while others had their hands broken.

    The two organisations are pretty much in a civil war, especially since Hamas took control in Gaza and Fatah, with the encouragement of the West, illegally removed Hamas’ elected representatives in the West Bank in 2007. I think 40 Hamas MPs are still being held without charge by Israel. I hold no more of a brief for Hamas than for any other bunch of religious extremists –like all groups that stoop to terrorism, it promotes brutes and bullies — but it does seem that the route to some kind of accord was fairly brutally cut off there, particularly given that Hamas had backed off somewhat on its position on Israel in the previous year’s election manifesto.

    The deep irony is that both Mossad and Shin Bet actively (and financially) supported Hamas in its early years, perceiving it as a useful counterweight to the PLO. It hardly needs saying, it was an Israeli security strategy that backfired awfully.

    This is what disturbs me: the horrible sense of deja vu. I can recall having endless arguments with people here when Israeli was laying waste to Lebanon, because it was not evident to me how it could end well. I was called a useful idiot, but soon enough it became clear that the attack was an awful mistake. It devastated an emergent, West-facing democracy, greatly strengthened the hand of Hezbollah, and cost lives on both sides.

    The current assault on Gaza is, like the Lebanon war, oriented towards domestic public opinion (there’s an election in February) and, as DPF says, it’s just as hard to see how it ends well.

    Between the racist rants of the likes of jastowns and Patrick Starr, I think most people in the West believe in Israel’s right to exist, and to respond to existential danger. It must be awful to live in fear on rocket attacks in those working-class Israeli towns near the border. But, objectively, what has happened in the past week is an order of magnitude worse. Of the 1.4 million people crammed into Gaza, half are under the age of 14. That’s why there are so many dead and injured children. If this Gaza diary published by the Guardian doesn’t make you weep, there’s something wrong with you:

    Thursday 1 January

    In the morning I get up early and call a friend who lives in Alshabora camp. He confirms the attack had hit there and I go to meet him.

    It looks like an earthquake. Many houses have been damaged, and many people have been wounded. The people who had escaped injury were trying to clean the place up – they have nowhere else to go. But the biggest shock is when I ask about the target. It was the children’s playground.

    “We heard a strong explosion happen, but with all the smoke and the dust we couldn’t see well, and the electricity was off,” I am told by a small child.

    “We saw everything fall down – the window broke on us. We went downstairs, and people were saying that the playground’s been targeted. This park is not a member of Hamas, it’s a park for playing. It’s for civilians – so why did they attack it?,” asks one 12-year-old girl who lives nearby.

    The target was a civilian area – but there was no warning, not one phone call from the Israeli army to tell civilians to beware.

    I visit the main hospital in Rafah. There are so many injured people, most of them children. In one ward, I meet four children aged five or six. They are in deep shock. They can’t speak, they just look at you.

    Only one child could say his name: “Abdel Rahman”. That’s all he can say. Otherwise, he just stares. He’s five. His ear was wounded by shrapnel, his head is covered by bandages.

    There is a 16-year-old girl also suffering from shrapnel injuries. Three of her brothers were killed; all her family were injured. She looks like a zombie and says nothing at all. Her mother is dying in the intensive care unit.

    The hospital manger, Abu Youssef Alnajar, gives the statistics for 1 January: two dead – a young man aged 22 and a woman aged 33; 59 injured – 16 children, 18 women and the rest old people. Most of them had been sleeping when the bombs dropped.

    I go back home and the first thing I do is take a shower. I feel really upset after what I have seen. As always I am trying to cope with the situation but sometimes it is too much to deal with.

    A short message to the pilots in the Israeli F-16s: does it make you feel happy to kill Palestinian children and women? Do you feel it’s your duty? Killing every child and woman, man and teenager in Gaza? I don’t know what exactly you feel, what exactly you think, but please think of your mother and sister, your son and daughter.

    Tell me how that ends well.

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  49. reid (15,593 comments) says:

    “kiwi in america is a disinfo agent and will try to baffle people with his bullshit take on what is real that or hes a fucken moron”

    On the contrary jastowns, I’ve always found KIA’s posts to be illuminating and interesting. Ad homina is not usually a useful contribution unless it’s very funny.

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  50. Manolo (12,637 comments) says:

    Is jastowns Phil U in drag and also writing in a different style?

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  51. jastowns (157 comments) says:

    Top 5 Lies About Israel’s Assault on Gaza

    Jeremy R. Hammond
    Foreign Policy Journal
    January 3, 2008

    Lie #1) Israel is only targeting legitimate military sites and is seeking to protect innocent lives. Israel never targets civilians.

    The Gaza Strip is one of the most densely populated pieces of property in the world. The presence of militants within a civilian population does not, under international law, deprive that population of their protected status, and hence any assault upon that population under the guise of targeting militants is, in fact, a war crime.

    Moreover, the people Israel claims are legitimate targets are members of Hamas, which Israel says is a terrorist organization. Hamas has been responsible for firing rockets into Israel. These rockets are extremely inaccurate and thus, even if Hamas intended to hit military targets within Israel, are indiscriminate by nature. When rockets from Gaza kill Israeli civilians, it is a war crime.

    Karen Abuzayd of the United Nations Relief & Works Agency admits that it was Israel that violated the truce, not Hamas.

    Hamas has a military wing. However, it is not entirely a military organization, but a political one. Members of Hamas are the democratically elected representatives of the Palestinian people. Dozens of these elected leaders have been kidnapped and held in Israeli prisons without charge. Others have been targeted for assassination, such as Nizar Rayan, a top Hamas official. To kill Rayan, Israel targeted a residential apartment building. The strike not only killed Rayan but two of his wives and four of his children, along with six others. There is no justification for such an attack under international law. This was a war crime.

    Other of Israel’s bombardment with protected status under international law have included a mosque, a prison, police stations, and a university, in addition to residential buildings.

    Moreover, Israel has long held Gaza under siege, allowing only the most minimal amounts of humanitarian supplies to enter. Israel is bombing and killing Palestinian civilians. Countless more have been wounded, and cannot receive medical attention. Hospitals running on generators have little or no fuel. Doctors have no proper equipment or medical supplies to treat the injured. These people, too, are the victims of Israeli policies targeted not at Hamas or legitimate military targets, but directly designed to punish the civilian population.

    Lie #2) Hamas violated the cease-fire. The Israeli bombardment is a response to Palestinian rocket fire and is designed to end such rocket attacks.

    Israel never observed the cease-fire to begin with. From the beginning, it announced a “special security zone” within the Gaza Strip and announced that Palestinians who enter this zone will be fired upon. In other words, Israel announced its intention that Israeli soldiers would shoot at farmers and other individuals attempting to reach their own land in direct violation of not only the cease-fire but international law.

    Despite shooting incidents, including ones resulting in Palestinians getting injured, Hamas still held to the cease-fire from the time it went into effect on June 19 until Israel effectively ended the truce on November 4 by launching an airstrike into Gaza that killed five and injured several others.

    Israel’s violation of the cease-fire predictably resulted in retaliation from militants in Gaza who fired rockets into Israel in response. The increased barrage of rocket fire at the end of December is being used as justification for the continued Israeli bombardment, but is a direct response by militants to the Israeli attacks.

    Israel’s actions, including its violation of the cease-fire, predictably resulted in an escalation of rocket attacks against its own population.

    Lie #3) Hamas is using human shields, a war crime.

    There has been no evidence that Hamas has used human shields. The fact is, as previously noted, Gaza is a small piece of property that is densely populated. Israel engages in indiscriminate warfare such as the assassination of Nizar Rayan, in which members of his family were also murdered. It is victims like his dead children that Israel defines as “human shields” in its propaganda. There is no legitimacy for this interpretation under international law. In circumstances such as these, Hamas is not using human shields, Israel is committing war crimes in violation of the Geneva Conventions and other applicable international law.

    Lie #4) Arab nations have not condemned Israel’s actions because they understand Israel’s justification for its assault.

    * A d v e r t i s e m e n t
    * efoods

    The populations of those Arab countries are outraged at Israel’s actions and at their own governments for not condemning Israel’s assault and acting to end the violence. Simply stated, the Arab governments do not represent their respective Arab populations. The populations of the Arab nations have staged mass protests in opposition to not only Israel’s actions but also the inaction of their own governments and what they view as either complacency or complicity in Israel’s crimes.

    Moreover, the refusal of Arab nations to take action to come to the aid of the Palestinians is not because they agree with Israel’s actions, but because they are submissive to the will of the US, which fully supports Israel. Egypt, for instance, which refused to open the border to allow Palestinians wounded in the attacks to get medical treatment in Egyptian hospitals, is heavily dependent upon US aid, and is being widely criticized within the population of the Arab countries for what is viewed as an absolute betrayal of the Gaza Palestinians.

    Even Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas has been regarded as a traitor to his own people for blaming Hamas for the suffering of the people of Gaza. Palestinians are also well aware of Abbas’ past perceived betrayals in conniving with Israel and the US to sideline the democratically elected Hamas government, culminating in a counter-coup by Hamas in which it expelled Fatah (the military wing of Abbas’ Palestine Authority) from the Gaza Strip. While his apparent goal was to weaken Hamas and strengthen his own position, the Palestinians and other Arabs in the Middle East are so outraged at Abbas that it is unlikely he will be able to govern effectively.

    Lie #5) Israel is not responsible for civilian deaths because it warned the Palestinians of Gaza to flee areas that might be targeted.

    Israel claims it sent radio and telephone text messages to residents of Gaza warning them to flee from the coming bombardment. But the people of Gaza have nowhere to flee to. They are trapped within the Gaza Strip. It is by Israeli design that they cannot escape across the border. It is by Israeli design that they have no food, water, or fuel by which to survive. It is by Israeli design that hospitals in Gaza have no electricity and few medical supplies with which to treat the injured and save lives. And Israel has bombed vast areas of Gaza, targeting civilian infrastructure and other sites with protected status under international law. No place is safe within the Gaza Strip.

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  52. Spoff (275 comments) says:

    Russell.
    A good article on the Hamas/Fatah thing:

    http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/04/gaza200804

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  53. reid (15,593 comments) says:

    “I think most people in the West believe in Israel’s right to exist, and to respond to existential danger.”

    Quite agree with you Russell, I certainly believe both of those things. The often overlooked fact however is that Israel isn’t in existential danger. Rocket attacks are strategically speaking, mere pin-pricks and Israel’s regional security is assured via the US. There is no conceivable regional existential threat to Israel unless she bombs Iran which changes everything, or there is the long-standing possibility of a rogue WMD.

    BTW, one of the obvious risk factors in Israel’s belligerence level is that as belligerence rises, the likelihood of a rogue WMD attempt being made, God forbid, is INCREASED not decreased. Who woulda thunk.

    [DPF: I hope you never end up within a few metres of one of those pin pricks]

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  54. kiwi in america (2,336 comments) says:

    spoff
    I said the populations of Arabs and Jews pre WW2 were similar in the territory that came to be known as Israel not the entire Palestinian region. Ben Gurion wasn’t happy about the Peel Commission because, whilst the British favoured the two state solution, they were not thrilled at the escalating levels of Jewish migration because of the extra burden of administration it imposed on their mandate forces.

    Space (and the fact that it is off the thread topic) doesn’t permit a full rebuttal of your claims dismissing not only the exodus but the existence of the Davidic kingdom of Israel nor your claims about the 70AD diaspora.

    The Palestinian militants themselves admit the security fence achieved the objectives the Israeli’s set. On November 11, 2006, Islamic Jihad leader Abdallah Ramadan Shalah said on Al-Manar TV the terrorist organizations had every intention of continuing suicide bombing attacks, but that their timing and the possibility of implementing them from the West Bank depended on other factors. “For example,” he said, “there is the separation fence, which is an obstacle to the resistance, and if it were not there the situation would be entirely different.”

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  55. Turpin (342 comments) says:

    Thanks Fletch for that site, It’s interesting, it quotes Bernard Lewis who’s book The crisis of Islam I have enjoyed, The site has this to say.

    The word itself derives from “Peleshet”, a name that appears frequently in the Bible and has come into English as “Philistine”. The name began to be used in the Thirteenth Century BCE, for a wave of migrant “Sea Peoples” who came from the area of the Aegean Sea and the Greek Islands and settled on the southern coast of the land of Canaan. There they established five independent city-states (including Gaza) on a narrow strip of land known as Philistia. The Greeks and Romans called it “Palastina”.</blockquote.

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  56. kiwi in america (2,336 comments) says:

    jastowns
    Quoting journalists who write for institutions like the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace (an institution with a long history of pro-Palestinian advocacy) adds nothing to this debate except to reveal your partisan leanings. Try again mate.

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  57. Turpin (342 comments) says:

    Kiwi
    well said.

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  58. Spoff (275 comments) says:

    kiwi in america

    It seems somewhat disingenuous to cite the Peel commission when you already knew that the Zionists had rejected it. You know as well as I that Eretz Ysrael was and remains the object.

    Whatever Abdallah Ramadan Shalah said or for what reason he said it, the fact remains: if more than 1200 arrests of illegals circumventing the fence are made each week it cannot be impervious to suicide bombers. I think you should give Hamas a little credit here.

    BTW. Where are you from?

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  59. Turpin (342 comments) says:

    Reid
    you seem so fair minded with all your posts but there is a subtle thread that says to me that in reality you are aiding the Jew/Israel haters when you say things as you do.
    Whether you are aware of this I don’t know as I don’t know you but in all you write it all seems to be so sensible and fair minded, but the value behind it I don’t know is right.

    The often overlooked fact however is that Israel isn’t in existential danger. Rocket attacks are strategically speaking, mere pin-pricks and Israel’s regional security is assured via the US.

    .

    What’s strategic got to do with it when you’re running for your life several times a day, NO ONE should have to put up with that wherever they live.
    For you it almost seems that this is Ok as it’s not strategic!

    Well I say it is NOT Ok ever.

    You may well be correct in stating as does Russel that it is imperative now because of local domestic politics, that merely shows up what wankers the Israeli leaders are in allowing the situation to go on for so long as like you they think it isn’t strategic.

    It should never be accepted for even one day.

    The perversity of the hypocrisy of the Western media and Poliies is it’s Ok for the Jews to be subjected to “non strategic pinpricks” for months on end but for the Jews to retaliate.
    Oh NO! the wicked disproportionate kikes, how dare you attack the poor defenseless downtrodden unwashed of the Gaza strip. shame on you you bully.

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  60. kiwi in america (2,336 comments) says:

    Spoff
    The Peel Commission has relevance only in that its proposed boundaries became the template the UN began from in 1948. The Zionists obviously wanted more than they were given under the UN mandate but were happy to stick with the 1948 boundaries as long as their survival was not threatened – something that came under immediate threat the day after the 14 May declaration. I also cite the Peel Commission as evidence of the British government’s two state intention. Whilst the Jews weren’t happy with what that Commission drew up, at least they accepted what the UN decided on. The Arabs however rejected any solution involving any Jewish state and fought a series of wars to attempt to wipe out Israel.

    I don’t reject the fact that there are the border arrests you mention; its just I find little evidence to support your contention that the suicide bombings ended because of some magnanimous gesture on the part of Hamas. If there was the prospect of a lasting moritorium on suicide bombings, the Israeli’s would’ve far preferred that to the costly and time consuming construction of the security fence.

    I live in Arizona but I’m actually in NZ right now for holiday break.

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  61. Turpin (342 comments) says:

    Reid
    I just read you and Bok on the first post about the herald calling for Israel to be dismantled, and what do I find?

    [I have only said above that Israel is UNNECESSARILY aggressive. That's NOT the same thing as saying Israel is the 'blamable' belligerent. I have NOT said that above, and this is again an impossible conclusion to draw from my words. BTW, IMO the answer to that question is quite irrelevant anyway, since IMO that issue isn't at all relevant to the dynamics in the here and now.]

    Am I missing something here, Is there a way to call up all of someones posts in a thread?

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  62. reid (15,593 comments) says:

    “Reid you seem so fair minded with all your posts but there is a subtle thread that says to me that in reality you are aiding the Jew/Israel haters when you say things as you do.”

    Don’t see how, Turpin. Pray tell which suggestion I’ve made would if implemented, not have a positive effect on Israeli security?

    Edit: What did you find, Turpin, not sure what you’re saying.

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  63. jastowns (157 comments) says:

    kiwi in am and your other disinfo queen turbin,posting a different view should always add to a debate the fact you don’t want to hear it is of no concern to me
    What doesn’t add to a debate is the lies and disinfo you preach,i to could lie and carry on like the high almighty but personally truth is the only thing that interest me
    the fact that the post is from someone that actually knows whats going on just enforces my belief that you are a israeli troll and a disinfo queen

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  64. reid (15,593 comments) says:

    Crikey, an “israeli troll disinfo queen,” hear that, KIA?

    Well done jastowns, that WAS funny ad homina, but how about making a point, next time?

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  65. Southern Raider (1,376 comments) says:

    Have any of you actually been to Israel? The place is tiny yet the left make out that Israel should just give back more land. Fom where?

    Yes I’ve seen the security fences.

    Spoff you claim they don’t work and yet how many suicide bombings has there been since they were built? Near zip.

    Also Russell made the point that half the Gaza population are under 14. That means since the early 90′s they have made a concerted effort to breed. You can’t state someone is living in a cage when the “cage” started off the size of a farm and then they just filled in up in record time.

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  66. Southern Raider (1,376 comments) says:

    Jastown FYI
    - there are 613 Mitzvot (Judaic Laws). Christians only recognise 10 of them
    - Mitzvot cover everything from living, food preparation and religous acts. Many of these revolved around the temple and are no longer followed
    - Judaic religion does not and never has included human sacrifice (as you tried to allude). All animal sacrifice stopped after the Romans destroyed the temple
    - Christian commandment says “Though shall not kill”. Jewish law says “Though shall not murder”. Difference being Jews have the G-d given right to defend themselves.

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  67. jastowns (157 comments) says:

    reid the point is that a different view helps the debate and that bullshit dose not
    hope this helps you

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  68. Southern Raider (1,376 comments) says:

    Also Jastown as they Philistines where “sea people” that would imply they invaded Canaan as well. So what is your point?

    As with any area 3000 years plus ago there was mulitple tribes everywhere. Civilisation grew through conquest. Don’t apply your strange modern ideals to events that took place so long ago.

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  69. jastowns (157 comments) says:

    Southern Raider personally i find a few of those laws you speak of sicker than murder,round and round we go

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  70. Southern Raider (1,376 comments) says:

    Jas your not adding to the debate. You have no reference for your comments and are just spreading hate.

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  71. Southern Raider (1,376 comments) says:

    I would rather follow them than live my life filled with hatred and spewing bile as you seem to.

    If your such as expert on Jewish law then name one that you believe os “sicker than murder”?

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  72. kiwi in america (2,336 comments) says:

    Yea I did Reid. I agree – I’m waiting to read a coherent and cogently argued line of reasoning.

    jastowns
    The report you posted was laughable pro Hamas propoganda that you buy hook line and sinker and is so easily fisked.

    Hamas more than anyone knows the territory in which it lives. It knows that Israel seeks to avoid civilian casualties. Therefore it’s leadership blatantly hides behind civilians. If it were honest about fighting a clean war between soldiers it would send it’s militias out into the open and engage the IDF on ground away from civilians. Rayan hid with his family precisely because he thought it would add to his likelihood of survival. The Allies targeted Hitler in his bunker and, had they hit the Berlin bunker, Hitler’s wife and some family would’ve died. When you try to dislodge the leader of your enemy no army in history resiles because the leader’s family might also be killed. Its called the consequences of war. If you want to avoid such deaths then avoid war. In the case of Hamas, avoiding war was simple – stop the rocket attacks.

    The Israelis sent text messages warning about SPECIFIC attacks on SPECIFIC buildings. Gaza is not so crowded that people cannot leave a building and walk 500m down a road.

    The special security zone was nothing more than a buffer zone to try to maneuvre as much distance between Israeli settlements and the rocket launching sites. Hamas and Gaza residents were told precisely why the zone was created and what the consequences were for entering.

    When you analyse all the neutral parties reports of the daily rocket attacks, it is clear that Hamas did nothing more than reduce their intensity so in effect they were never serious about the ceasefire in the first place.

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  73. Russell Brown (403 comments) says:

    Also Russell made the point that half the Gaza population are under 14. That means since the early 90’s they have made a concerted effort to breed. You can’t state someone is living in a cage when the “cage” started off the size of a farm and then they just filled in up in record time.

    For a moment, I was really going to go off about this, but I think I’ll just leave it up to any decent person to see it for what it is.

    You really do have a nerve accusing anyone else of “spreading hate”.

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  74. Russell Brown (403 comments) says:

    The Israeli’s sent text messages warning about SPECIFIC attacks on SPECIFIC buildings. Gaza is not so crowded that people cannot leave a building and walk 500m down a road.

    Unfortunately, there’s ample evidence to indicate that such a practice has been far from universal, and that civilians have been killed in their homes and schools, without warning.

    But if it helps you to believe that Palestinian civilians are only dying because they’re too lazy to walk up the end of the road with their families, then I can hardly stop you.

    [DPF: I don't think anyone thinks that. But I do think the practice, even if not universal, does show the very significant difference between the two sides. One side wants to maximise civilian deaths while the other side takes significant steps to minimise civilian deaths while still undertaking military action. And the difference between the two practises stands at the heart of international law]

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  75. NeilM (370 comments) says:

    The deep irony is that both Mossad and Shin Bet actively (and financially) supported Hamas in its early years, perceiving it as a useful counterweight to the PLO.

    Hamas might be very surprised to hear that. This does get repeated a bit but it is not true. Muslim groups were certainly not hindered by Israel in setting up social services at a time when the PA was showing little interest in doing so. An element of that religious community did set up Hamas as a reaction to the first Intifada in 1984.

    To claim that that amounts to active support of Hamas is stretching things.

    The current assault on Gaza is, like the Lebanon war, oriented towards domestic public opinion (there’s an election in February) and, as DPF says, it’s just as hard to see how it ends well.

    It’s not surprising the Israeli public wants its government to take action to stop Hezbollah kidnapping and killing Israeli soldiers and to stop Hamas firing rockets and its little wonder the Israel govt takes notice.

    One result of the conflict with Hezbollah was a vastly increased and resourced UN peacekeeping force in south Lebanon which will has a far greater ability to keep Hezbollah in check. That should have happened without the need for Israel’s military actions.

    Similarly, the international community has been very slow in providing resources to ensure that Hamas cannot smuggle in rockets. It looks like international observers will now be a part of any new ceasefire arrangement. Again, it would have been far preferable for that to have happened without Israel’s military actions.

    But in both cases the international community failed to act until Israel had taken drastic measures.

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  76. reid (15,593 comments) says:

    “reid the point is that a different view helps the debate and that bullshit dose not. hope this helps you”

    I guess my concern is jastowns that the “different view helps the debate/bullshit” ratio is a little out of whack and not in a good way, IMVHO. Usually, consistent negative feedback indicates you should change your strategy, lest you fall into the old “definition of insanity is trying the same thing…” trap.

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  77. jastowns (157 comments) says:

    i realize many of these laws are not practiced now and how many religions have done many sick things in the name of god
    there are still many things done in the name of god that are just wrong
    95% of wars are in the name of god and you telling me you would rather live like that dosent do you any favors in my eyes
    I’m not here to judge religion as i believe people have the right to believe what they will
    i am here to let people know the truth from the bullshit thats all

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  78. reid (15,593 comments) says:

    Sorry to post on two threads but this is a great article, well worth-while, explaining US-Hamas-Fatah politics. It adds some interesting pieces to the jigsaw. Hatip to Spoff, thanks Spoff:

    http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/04/gaza200804?currentPage=1

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  79. Southern Raider (1,376 comments) says:

    Russell. I was trying to make a point about how the average joe blog has an impression that Israel marched 1.4 million people into a seaside village and locked them up.

    Yes there were many who moved temporarily to the Egyptian controlled space. But since them with a birthrate of over 7 per family it has created a major issue.

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  80. reid (15,593 comments) says:

    So jastowns, if religion is responsible then what’s the solution?

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  81. jastowns (157 comments) says:

    round and round we go where it ends i do know
    israel will loose this war or the world will be pulled into ww3 either way israel will pay the price for its lies
    well girls ive run out of time,i know you will be eagerly waiting for my next instalment (stop the bullshit)
    until then repent

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  82. kiwi in america (2,336 comments) says:

    Russell
    Name one army in military history that has INTENTIONALLY tipped off its opponents as to where it will attack.

    I was responding to the ludicrous claim that Gaza is so crowded that people had nowhere to flee. If I were living in a building that I was warned by the IDF that they were going to blow it up – I’d leave. Many clearly did but not all. The Israeli’s objective is to avoid as many civilian casualties as possible realising that a zero casualty outcome is impossible. Name a war involving combatants in a crowded city where there were no casualties. There wasn’t one.

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  83. Southern Raider (1,376 comments) says:

    Jastown if you come back please actually answer the question and tell me even one actuall Jewish law you find “sick”.

    Seem to be all bluster and no substance.

    Repeating diatribes from left wing marxists doesn’t actually add anthing to this blog.

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  84. Southern Raider (1,376 comments) says:

    Nice to see Annie Lennox leading the protests in London. Can’t sell any songs now so has to just make public appearances.

    Team America was on C4 the other night. Had to laugh at the piss take of the Film Actors Guild (FAG) supporting Kim Il Jong.

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  85. reid (15,593 comments) says:

    “If I were living in a building that I was warned by the IDF that they were going to blow it up – I’d leave.”

    So would I KIA and misery = with my house demolished with an unknown future then what am I then to do multiplied who knows how many times for families and other helpless groups like the elderly etc etc…

    “Won’t someone think of the children” is a cruel parody on the reality, as we move through our Christmas break. I know you’re not saying that, KIA.

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  86. Southern Raider (1,376 comments) says:

    Reid have you seen any of the pictures. The vast majority of the strip is intact. They are not straff bombing like WW2.

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  87. Glutaemus Maximus (2,207 comments) says:

    Jastowns.

    Serious Question my Boy/Girl.

    Tell us where you live, and we will be there at the dawn Chorus to take you to the promised land.

    My compatriots have now got sick and tired of your Nazi Filth.

    The Squadron can also be deployed soon after, to extract your sing along mates.

    Just tell us.

    Then you will get to see a balanced view.

    You’ll be returned unharmed, but enlightened.

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  88. kiwi in america (2,336 comments) says:

    reid
    I agree with your sentiment – Its the reason why democratically elected governments resort to war with great reluctance – because wars are horrific and involve the deaths of innocents.

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  89. reid (15,593 comments) says:

    “Reid have you seen any of the pictures.”

    I haven’t looked into the details of this attack yet, SR and don’t intend to until the dust settles. I’ve found it’s only then that you get to see through the bullshit propaganda.

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  90. reid (15,593 comments) says:

    “Its the reason why democratically elected governments resort to war with great reluctance”

    Yeh but Israel’s not behaving with great reluctance, KIA. Forget tactically, but strategically, why is Israel doing this? It’s NOT to enhance her own security, that’s assured already. She has nukes, US support and complete security. Simple, no possible doubt. End of story.

    That Vanity Fair article Spoff gave us spells out with journalistic integrity from a reputable publication, the plausible strategtic reasons why the US, instantly Hamas was elected, refused point-blank to deal with Hamas. Read that article and think about it.

    This latest incursion is for political purposes for the upcoming February Israeli elections and to destroy the main Hamas support-base. In the US, it also, as several people including Paul Buchanan have observed, has greatly restricted Obama’s ME options, when he takes over.

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  91. kiwi in america (2,336 comments) says:

    reid
    Its pretty simple – governments are tasked to protect their citizen’s homelands. A continuous rain of rocket attacks threatens the peace and movements of innocent civilians. Having tried fuel and power blockades and diplomacy to stop the attacks, Israel has resorted to force. Is domestic politics involved? Name any Israeli military activity since independence that didnt involve domestic Israeli political considerations.

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  92. reid (15,593 comments) says:

    “continuous rain of rocket attacks threatens the peace and movements of innocent civilians”

    KIA, it’s obvious isn’t it that rocket attacks aren’t a security threat to Israel? It’s political dynamite, that’s why they’re trying to close them down. In no way whatsoever however are rocket attacks ever going to become a strategic security threat to the State of Israel unless someone is provoked into placing some WMD into a warhead. And if they do that, isn’t it true that this current Gaza action (a) does nothing to increase the ability to prevent such an attack and (b) does everything to increase the motivation to launch such an attack?

    Like I said, read that Vanity Fair article.

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  93. Andrew W (1,629 comments) says:

    What would be required for this old conflict to be resolved peacefully is for one side or the other to do something really surprising, populist politics will ensure that neither side does anything really surprising.

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  94. Southern Raider (1,376 comments) says:

    Yes it might have something to do with the upcoming election for the reason that if you or your relatives families lived in fear from day to day about being hit by a random rocket you would be voting for someone that was going to end it.

    Reid etc you are all in complete denial if you honestly believe it is acceptable for familes to live in South East Israel and have 20 to 50 rockets fired at you every day. You don’t know if your kids are going to come home from school or your partner from work.

    You would not accept your family being in that situation so why should the Israeli’s.

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  95. reid (15,593 comments) says:

    SR, it’s not about individuals it’s about strategic politics: Israel & Fatah vs Hamas

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  96. kiwi in america (2,336 comments) says:

    Reid
    Would you live in a town within rocket range knowing over a dozen had died playing russian roulette or being unable to get to a shelter in time? What about those in towns a little farther away who progressively come in range as Iran smuggles in rockets with longer and longer ranges? The Germans launched very few V2s and proportionately few died from their attacks in England and yet the Germans were able to inspire terror in all within their range – terror that never ended until the Allies finally nailed the rocket launchnig sites. England’s overall security was never at risk. Had Churchill’s war cabinet displayed the nochalence to the situation that you believe Israel should show, they would’ve been swift demands for their resignations. That’s what happens in democracies – the voters demand their leaders enact their collective will. Israel’s citizens are sick and tired of the attacks – that why 80% back this campaign.

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  97. Southern Raider (1,376 comments) says:

    Reid I was there in early 07 and rockets where streaming into Sederot and it was happening before I arrived and has been going on since.

    As pointed out by KIA what happens when they start hitting Tel Aviv or one carrying a larger war head hits a kindergarten.

    Should Israel just set their rockets to random targets?

    You are honestly full of yourself to suggest you would put up with this. You have proved through numerous posts on this blog over time to have a major dislike for anything that Israel does.

    How about in protest you turn off your computer and chuck it out the window because we all know where the Intel chip comes from.

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  98. Southern Raider (1,376 comments) says:

    Of course it is about politics. The residents don’t have the ability to fight back and therefore will vote people into power that can.

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  99. reid (15,593 comments) says:

    SR and KIA, I compassionately concur with all your points, but note that you have said nothing about what are the strategic motivations and interests of the various players which are being reshaped as we speak, which is what, I had thought, my posts have all been about.

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  100. Ruth (178 comments) says:

    DPF: While I am a defender of Israel’s right to respond to the thousands of rocket attacks Hamas launches at Israel, it doesn’t mean I agree with every aspect of their response.

    Same here.

    Farrar’s posts on the subject have actually been very good and balanced. Actually when I think about it most of us who can claim Jewish heritage are pretty objective about this and mourn the loss of innocent Palestinian lives.

    Many on the right support Israel *uncritically* no matter what — someone told them it was worth starting a regional, if not global conflagration over, but they forgot why a long time ago. Also the cost to the American taxpayer, with their multi-billion-dollar aid packages to Israel, is never debated on right blogs. Which is rather strange. Israel’s interests are not always the same as US/Western interests.

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  101. Don the Kiwi (1,338 comments) says:

    Thank God jastowns has shut up shop :lol:

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  102. big bruv (12,380 comments) says:

    I agree with every single aspect of the Israeli response, if you keep poking a stick at at Rottweiler pretty soon it is going to become one pissed off animal, these murdering Muslim scum have had it coming for some time now.

    Its just a pity that the pinko media refuse to tell the true story.

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  103. big bruv (12,380 comments) says:

    Who are these “innocent Muslims” that some of you keep referring to?

    Would these be the same Muslims who consistently refuse to speak out against terrorism?, would these be the same Muslims who pray every night for the destruction of Israel yet think nothing of going across the border to seek medical aide?

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  104. Southern Raider (1,376 comments) says:

    Reid hopefully the outcome is
    - Hamas is surgically crippled
    - very few more non-combatant lives are lost
    - UN sends in peace keepers (which will stop the rockets attacks, smuggling and Hamas being able to reassert any power)
    - Abbas can act as sole representative for Gaza and the West Bank
    - Two states can be created with final borders

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  105. grumpyoldhori (2,410 comments) says:

    Glutaemus Maximus, Hmm ragheads , next time you have your shoes off to do a bit of counting look up this word, al jabr.
    And just look where Europe got a kick start in maths way back in the tenth century from.
    Have you worked out what the word is in English yet, or have you had one of those modern educations ?

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  106. Spoff (275 comments) says:

    I notice that no-one has been able to tell us how many deaths were caused by rockets in 2008. Why is that? I haven’t find it after many searches.

    Here is a picture of a rocket that made a direct hit.
    http://www.reuters.com/news/pictures/searchpopup?picId=7701736

    Here is a piece I found strangely moving:

    Sderot was settled by Jews in 1951. According to Walid Khalidi in All That Remains, it along with the settlement of Or ha-Ner, founded in 1957, were established on the village lands of Najd, which means “elevated plain” in Arabic.

    Najd’s Palestinian villagers, approximately 620 in 1945, were expelled on 13 May 1948, before Israel was declared a state and before any Arab armies entered Palestine. According to UN Resolution 194 and also the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 13, Section 2, the villagers of Najd have a right to return home to their personal property and to their native village.

    Today, according to Khalidi, “some old trees grow” on the site of the village. It is “overgrown with cactus and Christ’s thorn and sycamore trees and contains the crumbled walls of unidentified buildings….”

    There were 82 houses in Najd. Children went to school in Simsim, two kilometers away. According to Palestine Remembered the village has been completely “defaced.”

    In 1596 Najd’s population was 215.

    In 1838, Edward Robinson, an American biblical scholar “observed the villagers winnowing barley by throwing it into the air against the wind with wooden forks” [Robinson (1841) III: 260 as quoted in Khalidi 128].

    Najd’s villagers were mainly farmers and engaged in animal husbandry. “Fields of grain and fruit trees surrounded Najd on all sides.”

    Najd is fourteen kilometers from Gaza. Palestinian Arabs own 12,669 dunums in Najd although Israel refuses to honor their rights to their personal property, and refuses them their inalienable right to return home. In 1945 Jews owned 495 dunums of land in Najd and public lands consisted of 412 dunums.

    Najd is one of 418 ethnically cleansed villages that Dr. Khalidi includes in his seminal work. Khalidi dedicates his book:

    To all those for whom these villages were home and to their descendants.

    Khalidi, Walid, ed. All That Remains: The Palestinian Villages Occupied and Depopulated By Israel in 1948. Institute for Palestine Studies: Washington, D.C., 1992.

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  107. Spoff (275 comments) says:

    Kiwi in america.
    Just spotted your reply above.
    “The Zionists….. were happy to stick with the 1948 boundaries as long as their survival was not threatened ”

    At least one was not:
    “In 1948, Menachem Begin declared that: ‘The partition of the Homeland is illegal. It will never be recognized. The signature of institutions and individuals of the partition agreement is invalid. It will not bind the Jewish people. Jerusalem was and will forever be our capital. Eretz Israel (the land of Israel) will be restored to the people of Israel, All of it. And forever.” Noam Chomsky, “The Fateful Triangle.”

    ” The Arabs however rejected any solution involving any Jewish state and fought a series of wars to attempt to wipe out Israel.”

    The timeline does not support this thesis.
    Before the Arab League moved to stabilise the area on 15th May 1948, 250,000 Palestinians had already been terrorised out of their homes and made refugees.
    They were terrorised by events such as the massacre at Deir Yassin which is well documented and occurred at the beginning of April that year.

    Benny Morris, himself a committed Zionist and Professor of history at Ben-Gurion University of the Negev in Be’er Sheva had this to say about his book:

    ” It is based on many documents that were not available to me when I wrote the original book, most of them from the Israel Defense Forces Archives. What the new material shows is that there were far more Israeli acts of massacre than I had previously thought. To my surprise, there were also many cases of rape. In the months of April-May 1948, units of the Haganah [the pre-state defense force that was the precursor of the IDF] were given operational orders that stated explicitly that they were to uproot the villagers, expel them and destroy the villages themselves.
    http://www.logosjournal.com/morris.htm

    It was for this reason that the Arab League acted. I recommend a thorough reading of their declaration:

    http://www.ipcri.org/files/Arableaguestatement48.html

    “I find little evidence to support your contention that the suicide bombings ended because of some magnanimous gesture on the part of Hamas.”

    Well we know the fence didn’t do it and there was a moratorium declared by Hamas, I would be interested in any other conclusion you might be able, logically, to deliver.

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  108. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    Germans, Arabs—fuckwits. Just check out the names of the scientists of the Manhatten Engineer District and then tell me that the ragheads have a brain cell between them. They are just lucky that the Americans have kept the Israeli finger off the trigger. Once that dickhead in Iran gets another few thousand centrifuges operating then sit back and count the mushrooms. Keith will need more than body paint to stop the flash burns.

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  109. kiwi in america (2,336 comments) says:

    reid
    Israel’s strategic motivations and interests have always been pretty simple – survival. It’s what you get when a tiny country is hemmed in on 3 sides by hostile neighbours who, for decades, sought your annihilation and backed the desire up with well bank rolled armed forces led by despotic leaders desperate to prove Arab hegemony in the midst of corruption ridden regimes that could never deliver the wealth and prosperity that comes from the combination of free market capitalism and democracy.

    Israel sought and achieved lasting peace with Jordan and Egypt and tried to do the same with the Palestinians. Arafat’s PLO, Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Hezbollah had/have no intention of ever recognizing Israel’s rights to exist. Israel’s current strategic motivations revolve around that reality and a desire to find a Palestinian partner in peace. Abbas and Fatah, having seen the billions in aid to Palestinians wasted on futile urban guerilla warfare with a technologically and militarily more powerful enemy, have grown sick of the poverty of his people, is now prepared to get around the table with Israel so that it can use foreign aid for what it was always intended – the building of roads, hospitals and schools.

    The ideologues of Iran use their Palestinian proxies to wage a constant low grade urban insurgency war a la the IRA in Northern Island to wear down Israel. Counting on a compliant and largely anti-Israel world press and an increasingly impatient America to pressure Israel into submission, Hamas has used the rocket attacks to needle and goad Israel into precisely a rerun of the Lebanon war in 2006. The use of human shields to maximize civilian casualties ensures Israel loses the propaganda war to images of dead children in apartment buildings. Hoping the international pressure on Israel will soon push the war weary Israeli civilian population to have their leaders to sue for a cease fire – a ‘peace’ Hamas will observe in the time honoured fashion by a secret arms buildup and a resumption of rocket attacks. They will continue this low level war of attrition for as long as it takes to achieve the ultimate goal – to buy time for Iran to obtain the nuclear weapons it desires to wipe out Israel.

    This Gaza campaign is no different in concept to the 6 Day War – a pre emptive strike to send a message. Egypt and Jordan finally got that message after their failure to prevail in the Yom Kippur war of 1974. The eventual peace greatly enhanced that ultimate strategic goal of survival. Israel’s goal is to avoid the blunders of their Hezbollah campaign two summers ago and make the price of Hama’s strategy too great for all but the diehard jihadists.

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  110. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    KIA: You have just said it all. Excellent.

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  111. reid (15,593 comments) says:

    KIA, I addressed this point last night on a previous thread…

    “The way I see it, Israel has been invulnerable since the 70’s or whenever it succeeded in getting a nuke. In addition, it has a cross-party decades-old security guarantee from the world’s only superpower. If the worst came to the worst in the ME and it became a case of having to support either say, Saudi Arabia or Israel in a fight against the other, whom do you think the US would choose? If it was the entire Arab League against Israel, whom do you think the US would choose? On top of this, the IDF has both quantity and quality superiority in self-controlled and operated military hardware in every single important combat area across electronic, air, land and sea theatres. I assume one of the diplomatic tools the US uses when it wants to control Israel is the supply of ammunition, but even if that’s the case, there is still no conceivable case whereby if Israel’s security was threatened, that the US would abandon her. Now if I was Israel, about the only thing I’d be really scared about is a rogue nuke. Everything else from an invasion/take-over risk assessment perspective is under control, region-wide. Isn’t it? (Unless Israel bombs Iran, in which case everything heads south, so therefore would be a rather good thing to see Israel try to avoid doing that. Those who believe that Iran is controlled by warmongers aren’t accurate, IMO.)

    My point is that a nation’s strategic security relies not only on the military but also on the diplomatic band. By that I mean, in peacetime, a nation’s relationships are important for protection and trade. Protection is more important. Obviously on the diplomatic band the first thing you don’t want to do is piss off your own neighbors. Almost uniquely in the world, Israel has struggled with that since her inception. Some argue that Israel is forced to act tough in order to deter the surrounding hatred. Again, that used to be the case, before she gained something like a combination of Batman’s and the Green Lantern’s superpowers, multiplied by eleventy gajillion +1.

    Point is, sure, back in time, Israel was under threat and miracles happened. 6 day war was a genuine miracle. She ain’t however, under strategic now. Whichever way you cut the cake, Israel now, today, has complete and utter security from everything but a rogue threat, unless she attacks Iran.”

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  112. Spoff (275 comments) says:

    KIA.
    One small correction.
    “Arafat’s PLO, Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Hezbollah had/have no intention of ever recognizing Israel’s rights to exist.”

    This is not complete. I would be happier if you inserted the all-important clause:
    “as a Jewish State”, for this is what Israel insists upon and it carries with it the renunciation of the right of return for Palestinians and/or compensation for the lands and property lost so eloquently described by Dr. Khalidi in the piece I posted above.

    A minor point is that Egypt and Jordan also got the money.

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  113. kiwi in america (2,336 comments) says:

    spoff
    I’m away from my library with much of my source material that utterly refutes your version of the 1948 war including other material published by Benny Morris that support a far more nuanced view of the flow of refugees in the face of the swiftly moving ebb and flow of the 1948 war. What I recall in my reading is that atrocities occured on both sides but that there were many more Arab atrocities. Sadly, what the Stern gang (and some elements of the Haganah) did fits the pattern of pretty much every war known to man. This is not to condone their acts but to acknowledge the horrible reality of almost all wars. Reporting these atrocities and failing to as studiously report Arab atrocities merely acts as a distraction from the central purpose of the 1948 war – that of the stated desire of Israel’s Arab neighbours to annihilate the fledgling state – something you seem to tacitly approve of by your failure to condemn.

    You furnish zero proof that a Hamas moritorium on suicide bombings achieved what you claim the security fence could not.

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  114. reid (15,593 comments) says:

    “This Gaza campaign is no different in concept to the 6 Day War – a pre emptive strike to send a message.”

    No it’s not, KIA, it’s a strike to take out Hamas’ main support base. Real question is, why? What evidence has anyone seen that explains why Hamas is the boogeyman but Fatah is not?

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  115. iago (19 comments) says:

    This has the potential to be very messy, I think it is in everyones interest for Israel to quickly eliminate to Hamas leadership and destroy the vast majority of the rocket stockpiles. But if this ends up dragging on with the body count piling up on both sides, the chances of long term peace look slim, the more moderate leaders like Abbas could be forced for power and likewise there could be a shift to the right in Israel who are less likely to support a Palestinian state.

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  116. kiwi in america (2,336 comments) says:

    spoff
    Good point – my understanding is that any 2 state solution would involve similar ‘reparations’ as was paid to Egtpt and Jordan. Israel sees the price of lasting peace as being worth any financial compensation. Israel paid alot to buy off its Gaza residents prefering to leave that territory to the Palestinians if it would lead to peace.

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  117. kiwi in america (2,336 comments) says:

    reid
    Fatah is the lesser of two evils. Hamas ideologically supports the annihilation of Israel in line with its Iranian sponsors – Fatah does not. That distinction is crucial. Abbas is a pragmatist not an idealogue. Yes this is a Fatah v Hamas proxie battle to some extent but one Israel happily fights in its pursuit for a lasting peace. I personally think that Israel’s faith in Fatah is somewhat misplaced but it illustrates the lengths Israel will go to replicate its Egypt and Jordan arrangements.

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  118. jastowns (157 comments) says:

    Here is a must see video that will sort out any confusion that you may have

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6604775898578139565&hl=en

    there are alot at this site that will not want you to see this

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  119. reid (15,593 comments) says:

    “Hamas ideologically supports the annihilation of Israel in line with its Iranian sponsors – Fatah does not. That distinction is crucial.”

    KIA, that’s fatuous.

    International negotiating positions with elected govts don’t hinge on the issues you cite. If members of the public choose to think they do, then they fool only themselves.

    Fact is, for reasons unknown, the west immediately refused to negotiate with Hamas on its election. I never heard why. Did you?

    Far as I’ve ever known, one was like the other, now all of a sudden for no particular reason, one is white and the other black. How very curious…

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  120. Spoff (275 comments) says:

    KIA
    “that of the stated desire of Israel’s Arab neighbours to annihilate the fledgling state ”

    Did you read the statement made by the Arab League? The bit where they pledged to the United Nations that they would withdraw once order had been restored and a plural democracy installed with the guarantee of minority rights? And have you ignored the fact that Morris confirms that the massacres began before the Arab League moved? Morris is talking about the second edition of his book. Perhaps your distant library holds the first.

    “You furnish zero proof that a Hamas moritorium on suicide bombings achieved what you claim the security fence could not.”

    I furnish no proof whatsoever. I simply pose the question: If Israel Television runs a story about the 1200 or so Palestinians who get round the security fence every week “illegally”, can it be impervious to suicide bombers? And I pose the further question, given that Hamas has declared a moratorium on suicide bombing, could that have something to do with the fact that there have been no suicide bombings?

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  121. kiwi in america (2,336 comments) says:

    reid
    Calling it fatuous doesn’t change the facts. Hamas was elected because Fatah were incompetent. Hamas suggested they could do a better job of filling in the potholes – no mention of a war of attrition with Israel. If an election were held today, any moderate party would wipe out Hamas. The driving mission of Hamas is reflected in their strategic actions to date. I’d venture that the almost universal refusal of western nations to deal with Hamas upon its election was because their intelligence agencies knew what we all know now – Hamas were never partners in peace.

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  122. Spoff (275 comments) says:

    KIA

    “my understanding is that any 2 state solution would involve similar ‘reparations’ ”

    Please point me to any site that informs your understanding that Israel has offered reparations.

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  123. Spoff (275 comments) says:

    KIA
    “Hamas was elected because Fatah were incompetent.”

    Hamas was elected because Fatah was bought, sold and prepared to settle for a pittance and the Palestinians people said no.

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  124. reid (15,593 comments) says:

    KIA:

    Hamas suggested they could do a better job of filling in the potholes – no mention of a war of attrition with Israel. [Provoked by whom?]

    If an election were held today, any moderate party would wipe out Hamas. [You mean before or after Gaza 09?]

    The driving mission of Hamas is reflected in their strategic actions to date. [Are they actions or reactions, KIA?]

    I’d venture that the almost universal refusal of western nations to deal with Hamas upon its election was because their intelligence agencies knew what we all know now – Hamas were never partners in peace. [Did we ever give them a chance? If so, when?]

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  125. kiwi in america (2,336 comments) says:

    spoff
    You ignore my premise – that wars inevitably involve atrocities on both sides and that you assiduously report Israeli atrocities and studiously ignore the Arab ones. Michael Oren’s book “6 Days of War” cites original archives of Syrian and Egyptian leaders and senior diplomats where the desire to wipe out Israel was explicitly noted in writing. The public pronouncements you cite were merely puffery designed to fob off the UN.

    Please give the citations with dates of the Hama suicide bombing moratoriumm.

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  126. kiwi in america (2,336 comments) says:

    reid
    Israel didn’t force Hamas to start firing rockets – it was a strategic decision.

    Before Gaza 09 and certainly after.

    Hamas have had the annihilation clause in their charter from its inception.

    Its pretty significant that the EU, having sent the Palestinians billions already, refused to deal with Hamas – I wonder why.

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  127. jastowns (157 comments) says:

    This video will clear up everything about this war
    A must see

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6604775898578139565&hl=en

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  128. kiwi in america (2,336 comments) says:

    spoff
    The Oslo negotiations never got that far. Reparations became the last thing negotiated in the Egyptian and Jordanian treaties. There’s no reason to suppose that a signed deal with the Palestinians wouldn’t have included the same notwithstanding the Israeli initial blustering to the contrary. Arafat’s intrasigence meant the talks never got past the land negotiations.

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  129. Spoff (275 comments) says:

    KIA
    Ferchrissakes do a search for the contrary to your religious belief. Don’t make me do all the work you should have done before launching into print.
    Here is just the first that got chucked up

    Hamas has been observing a moratorium on suicide bombings against Israel for the past year.

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,404766,00.html

    03/07/2006

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  130. reid (15,593 comments) says:

    “Israel didn’t force Hamas to start firing rockets – it was a strategic decision.”

    KIA, apart from everything else, Hamas is not and has never been, the only party responsible for Qassams. Gee Fatah has a really good reason for firing rockets, doesn’t it. Bet it didn’t though, cause “they’re the good guys”

    “Hamas have had the annihilation clause in their charter from its inception.”

    Claiming such a clause is the reason why all deals broke down is like the blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat, that isn’t there.

    In international negotiations, such positions are used for bargaining chips but they are never show stoppers otherwise why sit down in the first place? As I recall, Hamas always expressed willingness to sit down. I’m hazy as to whether the offer was ever taken up, at the time.

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  131. Spoff (275 comments) says:

    KIA
    “The Oslo negotiations never got that far. Reparations became the last thing negotiated in the Egyptian and Jordanian treaties. There’s no reason to suppose that a signed deal with the Palestinians wouldn’t have included the same notwithstanding the Israeli initial blustering to contrary. Arafat’s intrasigence meant the talks never got past the land negotiations.”

    I asked for a link to any fucking evidence that Israel has ever offered a deal on the fucking land

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  132. Southern Raider (1,376 comments) says:

    Reid/Spoff why do you continue to believe that Hamas is a sane party you can negotiate with in good faith.

    If it was Israel and any other country trying to sort out an agreement then it would be a different story.

    To enter into a good agreement there has to be risks on both sides if the deal is broken.

    What would Hamas have to lose?

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  133. Southern Raider (1,376 comments) says:

    Spoff they removed the settlements and handed back the land at the north of the Gaza strip. What thanks did they get in return?

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  134. Spoff (275 comments) says:

    Southern Raider

    “Spoff they removed the settlements and handed back the land at the north of the Gaza strip. What thanks did they get in return?”

    So they stopped committing a war crime while they stepped up the war crime in the West Bank.

    Blatant PR stratagem.

    There are now 400,000 settlers in the West bank, subsidised by the Israeli Government. This is a War crime under the Fourth Geneva convention.

    Meanwhile they commenced the strangulation of Gaza.

    Let me ask you one question. If you could smuggle arms into Gaza, what would it be? RPGs, ground to air missiles?

    Where is the evidence of these during this latest conflict?

    I posted the link to the rocket attack for a reason. I doubt any of you “truthseekers” hit on it. It’s a piece of plumbing filled with sodium and sugar. This is a desperate people fighting for their very existence.

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  135. Dazzaman (1,114 comments) says:

    jastowns, back to the loony bin boy! Philu is almost coherent and rational by comparison.

    Funny how he considers those who support, or at least can understand, the Israeli POV or position as being brainwashed; when the MSM and, dare I say it, the alternative media actually push his (jastowns) POV. Someones been duped…..and it ain’t me!

    His bitterness towards religion is also……odd. Most atheists or agnostics tend to just ignore religious viewpoints. Virulent opposition to religious viewpoints displays a pathological madness in my opinion. Can this guy be curbed, Farrar? I believe he’s truly sick and needs help!

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  136. Patrick Starr (3,675 comments) says:

    “Verily, for the Muttaqun [righteous], there will be a success (paradise); gardens and grapeyards; and young full-breasted (mature) maidens of equal age; and a full cup (of wine)” (An-Naba 78:31-34).

    Here’s a possible solution. a slight amendment to the Koran to read the 72 virgins are available for all causalities, not just the [righteous] suicide bomber.

    If the afterlife is so good, WTF do they care where the borders are in this life?

    (TIC DPF – because it’s so ridiculous)

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  137. NeilM (370 comments) says:

    …they removed the settlements and handed back the land at the north of the Gaza strip.

    that really is the central issue. the deal is Land for Peace. the international community expects Israel to give back occupied land in exchange for peace.

    But what happened in Lebanon? Israel withdrew from occupied land but did not get peace. Instead there’s a hostile parasitic state-within-a-state that kidnaps and kills Israelis.

    And in Gaza, again Israel withdrew from occupied land but did not get peace.

    It’s the West Bank where the remaining illegal settlements are and that’s not where the rockets are coming from.

    Land for Peace is the deal. not land for more war for more land – which is what Hamas and Hezbollah are doing.

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  138. Spoff (275 comments) says:

    Southern Raider
    Do I detect a party who is sincerely interested in information?

    Reid/Spoff why do you continue to believe that Hamas is a sane party you can negotiate with in good faith.

    Because Hamas has offered a meaningful truce which you probably don’t know about:

    Another Hamas Peace Plan Ignored
    by Ira Chernus

    Read this carefully. Note that a Hudna is a truce that is sanctioned by the Koran. You Islamophobes seem to think that “these people” are driven by religious dicta. Well here it is, a truce that binds every Muslim.

    “As Yousef explained, a hudna is “a period of nonwar but only partial resolution of a conflict.” It “extends beyond the Western concept of a cease-fire and obliges the parties to use the period to seek a permanent, nonviolent resolution to their differences.” A hudna “affords the opportunity to humanize one’s opponents and understand their position with the goal of resolving the intertribal or international dispute.”

    http://www.commondreams.org/views06/1104-26.htm

    Did you know about this?

    Why not?

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  139. kiwi in america (2,336 comments) says:

    spoff
    Foul language does little to enhance your arguments.

    Hamas were not the only purveyors of suicide bombings. Hezbollah, Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade and Islamic Jihad have all claimed to be responsible for suicide bombings. Whilst there has been a debate in Israel as to what has actually reduced the suicide bombings, the debate has been between those who cite the fence and those who cite the stepped up pursuit of Palestinian militants by the IDF and Israeli intelligence agencies. In a March 23, 2008 interview, Shalah again complained, this time to the Qatari newspaper Al-Sharq that the separation barrier “limits the ability of the resistance to arrive deep within Israeli territory to carry out suicide bombing attacks , but the resistance has not surrendered or become helpless, and is looking for other ways to cope with the requirements of every stage” of the intifada. Left wing opposition inside Israel to the wall revolves more around the route chosen and the infringement of Palestinian freedom than claiming any Hamas moritorium rendered the wall pointless.

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  140. Spoff (275 comments) says:

    kiwi in america

    Worry the bone if you will. I apologise for the language. Sometimes you piss me off.

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  141. reid (15,593 comments) says:

    “Reid/Spoff why do you continue to believe that Hamas is a sane party you can negotiate with in good faith.”

    Thing is, SR, I’ve never really looked into evidence one way or the other regarding the reliability or otherwise of either Fatah OR Hamas. This is because I saw at the time that when Hamas were elected that somehow, all of a sudden, immediately following their most unexpected victory, Hamas were instantly, instantly, really really bad, according to that segment of the world media that influences the foolishly moronic. No reasons have ever been provided, and it was presented as an instant fait accompli.

    Did this happen, or not? As in, did you get this same perception at that time?

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  142. Patrick Starr (3,675 comments) says:

    “I apologise for the language. Sometimes you piss me off.” Translated from leftwing “I’m losing the debate”

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  143. jastowns (157 comments) says:

    Dazedman if you watch this video you will gain an insight into what it is like in gaza rather than pretending you know what your talking about
    you dont have to agree with me to watch this vid
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6604775898578139565&hl=en

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  144. kiwi in america (2,336 comments) says:

    Ah yes Ira Chernus – the left wing peace activist Prof of religious Studies at UC Boulder – an avowed anti-American, pro-Palestinian advocate who uses his tenured protection in the ivory tower to spoiut forth his propoganda.Nice neutral source there spoff.

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  145. Spoff (275 comments) says:

    KIA

    “Ah yes Ira Chernus – the left wing peace activist Prof of religious Studies at UC Boulder – an avowed anti-American, pro-Palestinian advocate who uses his tenured protection in the ivory tower to spoiut forth his propoganda.Nice neutral source there spoff.”

    Any comment on the concept of Hudna and the chance for peace that it holds?

    I take back my former apology. Attacking the source and ignoring the fact is a pissant tactic of trolls. As far as I can see, you have run out of argument. A gentleman would either request time to consult his library or concede a point or two.

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  146. reid (15,593 comments) says:

    Spoff, what’s the “concept of Hudna?”

    Seriously.

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  147. Dazzaman (1,114 comments) says:

    Dazedman if you watch this video you will gain an insight into what it is like in gaza rather than pretending you know what your talking about
    you dont have to agree with me to watch this vid
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6604775898578139565&hl=en

    jadedtown – Who are you trying to convince, some fifth-former, pull yer dreadlocks in and get your ‘research’ from somewhere other then…ahem….Media Education Foundation. Anyone with half a brain, this includes you, knows Gaza is a shit-hole. A leftist, partisan organizations website isn’t likely to shed anything of interest to me.

    I’m of an age where I can spot bullshit artists a mile off. And what’s more, I can see who the bad bastards are in all of this too. You defend them, that’s your right but pull the re-education bullshit on someone else you arsehole.

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  148. jastowns (157 comments) says:

    Dazedman so you don’t want to watch the vid that’s fine,your ridicule of a video you haven’t watched tells me more about you than any of your rants,thanks for your time any way
    for any one that is not a troll this is a must watch
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6604775898578139565&hl=en

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  149. pushmepullu (686 comments) says:

    Innocent Palestinians? Yeah fucking right.

    The fact is, by refusing to do anything about the rocket attacks on Israel, the people living in Gaza have forfeited their right to not suffer from Israel’s justified revenge.

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  150. Spoff (275 comments) says:

    Having consumed a bottle of wine while discussing these points, I have to retire. I hope I have a least made one point clear.
    I am a sixty year old, fifth generation kiwi. It distresses me that so many of my (obviously young) kinfolk are so ready to sanction the bombing of innocents when they are confused as to the History of this conflict and ignorant of the crime that gave rise to the current atrocity in Gaza. Need I remind anyone that there has been no response to my request for the number of people killed by rocket attacks in 2008. The only data (provided by KIA) suggests that 15 Israelis have been killed by rockets since the year 2000. This represents approximately one tenth of the Palestinian children killed by the Israeli military during the period. To this Kiwi in Kiwiland, this does not look right.

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  151. Nomestradamus (2,772 comments) says:

    Spoff:

    Having consumed a bottle of wine while discussing these points, I have to retire.

    A bottle of wine – and you’re still more lucid than Jastowns! :)

    Israel-Gaza threads tend to attract divergent (but strongly-held) opinions, which I read with interest. While I don’t necessarily agree with everything you say, Spoff, at least you articulate arguments that others can respond to – Jastowns, on the other hand, has posted the same link at 9:46 pm, 10:25 pm and then 11:15 pm.

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  152. Patrick Starr (3,675 comments) says:

    “suggests that 15 Israelis have been killed by rockets since the year 2000. This represents approximately one tenth of the Palestinian children killed by the Israeli military during the period. To this Kiwi in Kiwiland, this does not look right.”

    nope, it doesnt look right that those Arabs are both violent terrorists, and piss poor shots, but those may be the facts nonetheless.

    Ask any Hamas how many Israeli deaths they intended to achieve, which is more to the point

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  153. reid (15,593 comments) says:

    Jastowns, on the other hand, has posted the same link at 9:46 pm, 10:25 pm and then 11:15 pm.

    Yeh but if you OBJECTIVELY look at the link jastowns gave, it details facts. Are they true, or not?

    It’s ridiculous to dismiss out of hand as the majority appear to, the possibility that one side isn’t all good and the other side isn’t all bad. Yet these are the dimensions along which we always discuss this issue. It’s very curious.

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  154. jastowns (157 comments) says:

    speaking like head troll for israel nomestradamus i know you don’t want people to see this video so ill post it again just for you and when you put more of your bullshit on ill post it again
    its an important video that all should watch pro-israel or pro-palestine its still important

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6604775898578139565&hl=en

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  155. Nomestradamus (2,772 comments) says:

    Jastowns:

    Let me re-type this in bold for you: Israel-Gaza threads tend to attract divergent (but strongly-held) opinions, which I read with interest. What I don’t read with interest, Jastowns, is your abusive vitriol directed at others (“head troll for israel”). Reid offered you this advice above:

    On the contrary jastowns, I’ve always found KIA’s posts to be illuminating and interesting. Ad homina is not usually a useful contribution unless it’s very funny.

    Now, Reid, the problem with historical “facts” is that they can, in fact, be viewed through a subjective revisionist lens (especially those tainted by agenda politics – such as those of Jastowns).

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  156. Patrick Starr (3,675 comments) says:

    As Barack Obama said on a visit to one Israeli town in July, “If somebody was sending rockets into my house where my two daughters sleep at night, I’m going to do everything in my power to stop that. And I would expect Israelis to do the same thing.”

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  157. jastowns (157 comments) says:

    Nomestradamus
    strange you should think this of me when i have only ever been abusive to some one who has been abusive to me first,childish i admit but that’s the way it is,all the post are still there feel free to check
    i have to say you being one of the main instigators and one of the most insulting i find your moral high ground sickening and the proven tactic of trolls, once again you have excelled in disinfo
    you say that what i say does not interest you yet you cant leave me alone even when i ignore your abusive rants,your like an ex girlfriend that’s fucked in the head
    the truth is i think you and your friends are trolls and use ridicule to discredit rather than real logic or evidence,you are whats wrong with good sites like this one

    back to topic this video is very important for anyone who wishes to gain a clear perspective of gaza
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6604775898578139565&hl=en

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  158. Nomestradamus (2,772 comments) says:

    Jastowns:

    your like an ex girlfriend that’s fucked in the head

    I see you’ve been reading How to win friends and influence people – great stuff!

    A couple of points:

    1. It pays to learn the difference between your and you’re before saying someone else is fucked in the head.
    2. I’d also suggesting learning what “troll” actually means (hint: it doesn’t mean someone who disagrees with your views).
    3. I’ve noticed a common theme with your comments. Your tactic is to make (in my opinion) spurious claims and challenge others to prove you wrong. I happen to think the onus is on you to substantiate your claims first, with compelling evidence, then leave it up to others to rebut those claims (if indeed they can). Hardly controversial, I would have thought, but you seem to hate being called on it. Merely posting links to YouTube clips, without explaining what you think they prove, doesn’t do much for your credibility.

    Some examples of your posting style (I won’t post links as otherwise this comment will go into moderation):

    October 13th, 2008 at 4:52 pm

    this is the first time i have been to this site and to be quite honest im a little shocked,ive gone though about 50 posts and not one was informative,i can tell that all of the opinions have come directly from mainstream media left or right

    November 4th, 2008 at 7:45 pm

    obama will win he is the USAs last false hope to make the yanks think that there is no election fraud,he is for change just like key but nothing will change only get worse,obama was born in kenya not in the US,after he gets in there will be another 911 only bigger and like the first 911 israil will be behind it want proof watch FABLED ENEMYS
    there is much more going on than you have been told
    just prove me wrong only one rule no government info unless its from japan, italy,russia,iran,they know the truth and have started to release there info to the public not that any of you will see it unless you look outside main stream media

    November 8th, 2008 at 10:03 am

    the reason i come here to this site is not because i like to be insulted,it is because most here still believe in the tooth fairy(so to speak)and i promise all that read this i am not a lyre nor have i ever been to find out all main stream media is owned by those setting the agenda is the wake up you all think 911 was done by muslims because the media has told you this but what if they are lying to us

    And, in making these points, I’ve politely overlooked your inflammatory rhetoric and more abusive commentary (directed at other posters) that I’ve seen from you in the last 48 hours.

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  159. jastowns (157 comments) says:

    Nomestradamus
    as i have said i have only attacked when attacked,i know what a troll is and think you are one,i stand by everything i have said and have posted what i see as evidence even though you will not even consider it, but why would you your a troll
    my motive is and always will be for people to do there own research rather than believe me or especially you
    it is impossible to convince people of something they refuse to believe hence there own research is vital to seeing the truth
    as i recall with my claim that bush was the 13th cousin of the queen, you harassed me ridiculed me said i was crazy and all i asked from you was to google it,finally i gave up to your insults and gave you the direct link in the Washington post, not a sorry not a kiss my ass nothing from you, you are a rat
    im glad you spent time going over my post thats a little less trolling other sites from you today,no doubt a full time occupation for you

    back to topic this video is very important for anyone who wishes to gain a clear perspective of gaza
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6604775898578139565&hl=en

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  160. kiwi in america (2,336 comments) says:

    Spoff
    You of all people should know that there are partisan and strongly held views on this issue on both sides. I readily admit that I am a friend of Israel but I try to look at both sides. I am not near my library where I have access to the research of historians and others who are well regarded on this issue. However when you cite the writings of a polemic partisan like Chernus you do your arguments a disservice because a commentator like him has little interest in promulgating anything other than a pro-Palestinian point of view. It would be the same as me quoting IDF spokespeople.

    Peace in the Middle East, while difficult, is achievable. Israel’s peace with Egypt and Jordan demonstrates this is possible. As a philosophical marker in this debate, I need to know this. Do you support the right of Israel to exist?

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  161. Turpin (342 comments) says:

    so lets all quote an unbiased commentator as yet.

    As Barack Obama said on a visit to one Israeli town in July, “If somebody was sending rockets into my house where my two daughters sleep at night, I’m going to do everything in my power to stop that. And I would expect Israelis to do the same thing.”

    As far as I am concerned due to the perfidy of the so called democratic States and the biased anti-Israel media, the IDF has the right as far as OB1 has uttered to Flatten the top half of Gaza to protect the Israeli towns.

    Yeah go the IDF.!
    Flatten the northern 30 Miles of Gaza so nothing moves, sleeps or lives.
    Rubble rubble rubble so your UAV’s can see everything that moves and kill it.

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  162. Bok (740 comments) says:

    “Reid/Spoff why do you continue to believe that Hamas is a sane party you can negotiate with in good faith.”

    Thing is, SR, I’ve never really looked into evidence one way or the other regarding the reliability or otherwise of either Fatah OR Hamas. This is because I saw at the time that when Hamas were elected that somehow, all of a sudden, immediately following their most unexpected victory, Hamas were instantly, instantly, really really bad, according to that segment of the world media that influences the foolishly moronic. No reasons have ever been provided, and it was presented as an instant fait accompli.

    Did this happen, or not? As in, did you get this same perception at that time?”

    Try Zimbabwe?!

    Jastown – you are truly the only person here with a modicum of common sense. My god!!! just yesterday i was sitting here marveling at the zionist-american counter intelligence unit and their total Matrix like skills, how they wen back 20 years, established these totally believable Islamic schools, trained their moles and sent them off to do the bombings (including England) while dodging bullets backwards in slowmo. And then… Ah fuck it! Why do I lower myself?

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  163. Patrick Starr (3,675 comments) says:

    Just listening to a live CNN telephone interview a guy living in Gaza. he claimed, “I can’t leave the house as the Israelis are targeting everything that moves, women, children, they’re killing everyone”

    According to GFP Israel is the 26th most powerful military force in the world.
    According to the MSM Gaza is the most densely populated area in the world and a population of 1.3m, ……..but there have been 512 deaths since Dec. 27

    Hmmm, take your pick;
    1. nothing is moving in Gaza.
    2. the Israelis are the worst shots in the world
    3. ‘Comical Ali’ escaped to Gaza

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  164. Turpin (342 comments) says:

    I’ve never heard of martin lewis before but his post at huffington was interesting historically.
    just goes to show history or should I say humans repeat themselves.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/martin-lewis/stop-this-vicious-slaught_b_155039.html

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  165. jastowns (157 comments) says:

    Is CNN owned by rupert murdoch the zoinest
    a phone interveiw what no pictures
    512 deaths and counting, dont forget over 100 of them are children, maybe you would feel different if it was one of your kids
    of cause you would not be afraid to go outside if you lived there patrick
    over 2700 injured

    here is a touch of realaty of this surgurcil bombing your so happy with

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  166. Patrick Starr (3,675 comments) says:

    “maybe you would feel different if it was one of your kids”

    I wouldn’t fill my kids heads with hate, then strap a bomb to their back and send them off to blow themselves up. The gutless fucken terrorists use women and children for their dirty work, hide their bombs in schools and hospitals, stage paliwood atrocities, start the conflict by randomly firing rockets into civilian residential areas, then expect the world to feel sorry for them.
    Well it’s only dickheads like you who get sucked in.

    “of cause you would not be afraid to go outside if you lived there patrick” No, step back a bit, I wouldn’t have voted for the terrorist Hamas in the first place and put the prospect of peace down the toilet

    Architects of their own misfortune

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  167. Murray (8,835 comments) says:

    Hey jastown apparently the Israelis do know how it feels when its their kids. http://hittingmetalwithahammer.wordpress.com/2006/10/27/why-i-dont-give-crap-how-hard-she-cries/

    And they’re really fucking sick of it.

    Didn’t hear a self righteous peep out of you and your kind while it was Arabs deliberately murdering these kids so a lot less noise from you lot now would be, if nothing else, less hypocritical. Evidently its all cool when only Jewish kids are doing the dying.

    You people disgust me.

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  168. jastowns (157 comments) says:

    ha ha that’s a joke right,every kid has a bomb strapped to there back,
    answer this if you got home from work, if you work that is,and your nabough had moved your boundary fence so you could no longer get your car up the drive,then when you took action to get your land back they killed your kids and told everyone that your kid had a bomb strapped to his back so it was justified,is this ok with you,because that is why the palestinians are pissed,have a look at how much land israel has stolen and israel has stolen there land
    and of cause you wouldn’t of voted for the only people that are listening to your plight your nabough was justified yes

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  169. Murray (8,835 comments) says:

    Good to see you find the deliberate murder of children funny (as long as they’re Jewish children).

    You’re just an anti-Semitic cunt really.

    (demerits noted DPF and I stand by my description and not really giving a crap)

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  170. jastowns (157 comments) says:

    Murray i would never say that nor have i ,thank you for trying to put words in my mouth,but from now on i will speak for myself so please take ownership of your rants yourself

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  171. Patrick Starr (3,675 comments) says:

    Very hard to follow your analogy……… but as it’s the Hamas who want to shift the neighbours fence (so there is no more neighbour) I’ll tell you what these Palestinians would do. The first thing he’d teach his remaining children is hate- hate anyone who does not share the same religion he has been cursed with. He’d then feed him so much shit that the poor child would actually believe he will be rewarded with gardens and grape yards; and young full-breasted maidens of equal age; and a full cup of wine if he straps a bomb to his back and knocks on his neighbors door.
    so after losing that child, and making only a small dent in the neighborhood population he’d then start firing rockets through his neighbours bedroom windows, and then squeal like stuck pigs when the neighbour gets so pissed off he finally comes over and clobbers him

    and yes I work. Do you work jastown, I seem to recall you previously claimed to whaleoil be a semi retired millionaire? – that was just before you asked him for oral sex.

    (You obviously never saw any photos of Cam during Movember)

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  172. Glutaemus Maximus (2,207 comments) says:

    Jastowns, please let us know where you live please.

    Think it is time you went for a ride!

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  173. Southern Raider (1,376 comments) says:

    TV3 just has an article about Hamas. Chucking other Palestinians off roof tops, summary executions etc etc.

    Nice chaps Jastown and Spoff wants to negotiate with them.

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  174. Glutaemus Maximus (2,207 comments) says:

    Think Jastowns needs to it for itself!

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  175. Southern Raider (1,376 comments) says:

    How do you tell how many of the dead are Hamas? they don’t wear uniforms, have been known to change clothes and employ women and children to carry out their dirty work.

    Also it has been reported at least 35 Fatah have been executed by Hamas in the last week and many more shot and injured. I bet the MSM countes these as causalties caused by Israel.

    Spoff claims hes semi-retired, well educated but thinks that Hamas can be trusted. We have their mates in Iraq today blow up innocent pilgrims. I’m leaning towards he must be a retired professor as thats the only way you could become that left wing, have time to drag up false evidence and blind towards what is going on.

    Didn’t Spoff also say that Israel lied about Hamas smuggling weapons? What the hell has been chucked and fired at the Israel tanks then? Humus and falafels?

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  176. Southern Raider (1,376 comments) says:

    And Jastown I’m waiting for you to name one Jewish law that makes you sick and is worse than murder. You claimed it was most of them but haven’t been able to state even one yet.

    Either come up with the goods or retract your comment you piece of shit.

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  177. Glutaemus Maximus (2,207 comments) says:

    SR, as they say. You can’t polish a turd!

    I still think Jastowns is Female, and Fugly Butch, with a better beard than me!

    Fuck H2 has re-surfaced!!!

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  178. Dazzaman (1,114 comments) says:

    Dazedman so you don’t want to watch the vid that’s fine,your ridicule of a video you haven’t watched tells me more about you than any of your rants,thanks for your time any way
    for any one that is not a troll this is a must watch
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6604775898578139565&hl=en

    jadedtown, you are a persistent egg. My download speeds are lousy so videos any longer then a couple of minutes are a waste of time for me. Not that I’d watch your silly leftist propaganda. Crikey boy, take the MED’s!!

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  179. Spoff (275 comments) says:

    Apart from a sizable hangover, I have much to do and have my grandkids coming to stay so I shall try to reply to KIA with a summary of the various points from last night. I won’t be able to post tonight.

    “when you cite the writings of a polemic partisan like Chernus ”

    If it was Chernus’ opinion I was referencing, I would concede this point, just as you would have to concede that Michael Oren’s opinions are, to me, unreliable.
    In this case however, I rely only on Chernus’ explanation of a Koranic principle, something that, as a professor of religion, he is well qualified to present.
    When I deal with Oren, it will be on the content of his book, not the fact that he is a senior fellow of The Shalem Center “an academic research institute in Jerusalem established in 1994 with the goal of developing the ideas needed to guide and sustain the Jewish state”

    “Do you support the right of Israel to exist?”

    I am a single state solution man. The success of partition is directly relative to its perceived fairness. In this case, that opportunity was lost many years ago. I do not buy the thesis that the Palestinians missed the opportunity, it was never given them and I can prove it using only the statements and documents of the principal actors of the time. That, however is another debate.

    I do not support states based on either religion or race. It is my view that Israel desires the entire territory but not its indigenous people. The history of this affair has seen the Palestinians share whittled down to the pittance of Oslo. The justification for this is always Israel’s security – the existential threat. I believe that, had Oslo succeeded, we would be seeing the very same “security threat” justifying the final, and inevitable annexation of whatever territory the Palestinians were given and driving out it’s people. When the “security” of Israel is threatened by rockets that have killed less than 1 percent of those killed on Israel’s roads, I cannot see how a Palestinian State could avoid provoking it.

    I think I have dealt with 1948 and the fact that the forces involved were 90,000 Israeli to 68,000 Arab League and that, on no occasion did Arab forces cross the line of partition. Israel’s existence was never threatened.

    “You ignore my premise – that wars inevitably involve atrocities on both sides ”

    The Arab League did not move until May 15. It is important to remember that date for on March 2 Israeli forces attacked the village of El Manara (490 Arab inhabitants), chased its inhabitants out, destroyed some houses, and left leaflets behind warning the inhabitants not to return because the village had been mined. On April 10, they attacked the adjoining village of Nasr-ed-Din (with 90 Arab inhabitants) and destroyed all its houses, killing most of its inhabitants, including women and children, and expelling all the rest. The siege of Tiberius was April 3 – 16, Deir Yassin April 9 ….and so on. The siege of Jaffa began on April 25. This is particularly significant because it was outside the proposed Jewish State.
    I repeat, all this happened before the Arab League acted, before the war began.

    1956.

    On this occasion, subsequent to Nasser’s nationalising the Suez Canal, Israel, France and England attacked him. It was a rather messy affair and nobody would question that it was an unprovoked attack, or that Israel’s existence was in any way connected with it. As a result, Nasser requested UN forces to station themselves in the Sinai on his side of the border.

    1967

    It is usually sufficient to quote….
    General Peled, Israel’s chief of staff “The thesis that the danger of genocide was hanging over us in June 1967 and that Israel was fighting for its physical existence is only bluff, which was born and developed after the war.” and Yitzhak Rabin: “I do not think Nasser wanted war. The two divisions he sent to the Sinai on 14 May would not have been sufficient to launch an offensive against Israel. He knew it and we knew it” (Le Monde, 29 February 1968)
    …..to dispel the existential threat myth but KIA is an Oren fan so I will have to go further.

    In 1982, the Israelis admitted that they had started the war. Prime Minister Menachem Begin, in a speech delivered at the Israeli National Defense College, clearly stated that: “The Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him” (Jerusalem Post, 20 August 1982).

    One must understand the context of the times. Israel was harassing the Syrians to clear the ground for their diversion of the Jordan River:
    Moshe Dayan, Israel’s defence minister at the time, said that 80 per cent of these confrontational episodes were planned and executed by Israel…..
    “It went this way: We would send a tractor to plough some place where it wasn’t possible to do anything, in the demilitarised area, and knew in advance that the Syrians would start to shoot. If they didn’t shoot, we would tell the tractor to advance farther, until in the end [the] Syrians would get annoyed and shoot.
    “And then we would use artillery and later the air force also, and that’s how it was.”
    In April 1967, one of these Israeli provocations became a full-fledged aerial battle with the Syrians. The Israelis shot down six Syrian planes, including one over Damascus.

    At this point Gamal Abdel Nasser, president of Egypt, was highly criticised for his ineffectiveness and was seen as simply an orator, and not a doer, for Arab nationalism and unity. He signed a defense pact with Syria and sent troops into the Sinai hoping to deter an Israeli attack. With his first rank forces bogged down in Yemen, the forces available to him were ill-equipped and took up defensive positions only.
    On receiving Soviet intelligence that Israel was about to attack, Nasser asked that the UN forces be moved onto the Israeli side of the border. He did not wish to be responsible for UN casualties. U Thant (U.N. Secretary General)said in his memoir that the war could have been avoided had Israel complied with this request but they refused, the UN withdrew.
    It was at this point that Israel attacked.
    One interesting theory has it that Israel’s attack was prompted by fears that Nasser planned a surgical strike on Israel’s nuclear weapons facility at Dimona.

    KIA will no doubt cite Oren’s contention that closing the Straits of Tiran was cassus beli. This is hardly credible. Less than 5% of Israel’s trade flowed through the Straits and was easily re-routed. Nasser knew this as did the Israelis. It was a token gesture in protest at Israel’s behaviour in the Golan and Nasser offered a moratorium on it almost as soon as it was announced, along with an offer to have the World Court arbitrate the issue.

    Mordechai Bentov, a former member of the ruling coalition during the June war, said he had not voted in favour of the war because he was convinced that all diplomatic and political means had not been employed to obtain the reopening of the Gulf of Akaba. He added: “This whole story about the threat of extermination was totally contrived and then elaborated on afterwards to justify the annexation of new Arab territories.”

    1973

    Not much to dispute here. Israel was certainly not ready for this one, though they should have been:

    “…Sadat offered Golda Meir an interim deal for opening the Suez Canal in return for a partial Israeli pullback in the Sinai, which she rejected, making the 1973 War inevitable.” – Ehud Ya’ari, The Jerusalem Report (December 13, 2004), p. 28.

    “Finding that Israel rejected American peace proposals (which involved the return to Arab sovereignty of virtually all the territories occupied in the 1967 War), and that the Israeli government headed by Mrs. Golda Meir dismissed contemptuously Sadat’s hints of readiness for an accommodation, Sadat decided to launch a fourth full-scale Arab-Israeli war.” – Larousse Encyclopedia of Modern History (revised edition, 1981), pp. 427-8

    However, the massive airlift of materiel (I think the biggest in History) that swung the war in their favour should, if nothing else, prove that the alliance with America provides a guarantee that Israel’s existence is no longer an issue.

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  180. Peter N (1 comment) says:

    An excellent analysis. Israel is the victim of an obscene irony, one which it has generated for itself. It has erected a wall around the Palestinian ghettos. I believe if they felt they could, they would take the genocide option. I used to feel there was a rightness to the plight of Israel. I no longer feel that the death of a single child on either side is worth the supposed rights or wrongs of this conflict. Peace must be paid for not in blood but in true integration which requires the courage of acceptance. For that the religious idiots must step back and look to the inherent compassion espoused in both zeitgeists of belief. I see no hope of this. Only the horror of innocent life being snuffed out by exploitative “patriots” on both sides.

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  181. Southern Raider (1,376 comments) says:

    Selectively taking sound bites doesn’t mean jack. I’m sure I could take quotes from Arafat and make out he claimed he shagged Mother Mary. You even try to make Nasser look like Mother Theresa. The guy though he was a modern day Pharoh and had grand designs on taking over from the Ottomans

    Peter nice to see you lumping Hamas who are responsible for this mess in with the ulta Orthodox who spend all there time praying. The only religous idiots here face Mecca.

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  182. kiwi in america (2,336 comments) says:

    spoff
    A target rich environment of revisionist history and Palestinian propoganda undergirded by a predictable one state world view. I never attempt a detailed rebuttal of material like this (as other Kiwiblog regulars who have read my posts on threads on the subject of Israel will attest) without proper references and quotes of original source material – material I am a week away from accessing. By the time I can respond, this thread will long be passed.

    You will however keep as I have copied your post and will prepare a response that I will post at some future date when next David blogs on matters Israeli.

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  183. morris (53 comments) says:

    http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1052348.html

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  184. Turpin (342 comments) says:

    No Morris nobody counts the 20 odd bodies around the main man killed.
    why should they the main man and his men have made targets of them all.
    All the kids that will die with their mums.
    and they will as sure as God made little green apples.
    the Israelis are good but not that Good.

    At least there are people like Melanie Phillips who gets it right and out there.

    http://www.melaniephillips.com/articles-new/?p=636

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  185. jastowns (157 comments) says:

    Dazedman your slow download speed has nothing to do with your lack of understanding

    southern raider the laws which include genocide are pretty sick 598to604 i think

    Glutaemus Maximus why such an interest in where i live,would it matter,maybe I’m just across the road from you

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  186. morris (53 comments) says:

    Yes Turpin, sad isn’t it that 20 people around the main man must die and, as you say, more surely will. I presume you are not suggesting that proximity to the main man reduces the significance of these people’s death.

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  187. Patrick Starr (3,675 comments) says:

    Im sure everyone in Glutaemus Maximus’s neighbourhood can at least spell.

    You didnt answer my question jastowns – do you work?

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  188. jastowns (157 comments) says:

    turbin the israelis are good but not that good?
    the israelis couldn’t give a fuck who they killed,as proven many times,its just the world is watching very closely now and has stopped listening to the propaganda they spew forth,something you have not caught up with yet

    kiwi in am still not interested in the facts i see,still listening to radio israel

    southern raider i have never said humus were nice blokes but you seem to think that anyone anti-zionist is,i have said that israel is stealing land that is not there’s maybe you could touch on this subject as this is what has caused this conflict

    [DPF: If Israel did not care who it killed, there would be a million dead, not 400 or so. And the return of Gaza to Palestinian control seems to have made things worse, not better]

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  189. jastowns (157 comments) says:

    sorry patrick i mistook your question for sarcasm,yes i do work but mostly only when i want too,thanks for your interest but i find the question off topic,could you answer my question “are you jewish”

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  190. jastowns (157 comments) says:

    back to topic this video is very important for anyone who wishes to gain a clear perspective of gaza
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6604775898578139565&hl=en

    this video is not left or right or even in the middle it is the way things are the video is the proof of that

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  191. Patrick Starr (3,675 comments) says:

    oh, you didnt make a mistake, and no, I’m not.
    Now as you demand answers from everyone else – are you on a welfare benefit of some description?

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  192. jastowns (157 comments) says:

    No patrick i have never been on a benefit,still i have failed to see what your questions have to do with gaza but im sure in your immature twisted mind there is a connection
    patrick are you on medication

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  193. Glutaemus Maximus (2,207 comments) says:

    So Jastowns, where do you live?

    Simple question.

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  194. Patrick Starr (3,675 comments) says:

    Sorry jason, none to share. I know its late but you’ll just have to go and see your dealer

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  195. jastowns (157 comments) says:

    Glutaemus Maximus ill tell you what you tell me where you live and i will respond in kind
    is that fair

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  196. jastowns (157 comments) says:

    patrick you see a dealer for your medication,this explains a lot, cheers

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  197. grumpyoldhori (2,410 comments) says:

    [DPF: If Israel did not care who it killed, there would be a million dead, not 400 or so. And the return of Gaza to Palestinian control seems to have made things worse, not better]

    You would find that Turkey could well enter the fray at that point David, and unlike Israel, Syria etc they are not an Arab army.
    Some Israeli fools believe they have the ability to take on ALL the Middle East Muslim countries at once.
    Rather tasty the Turks, after all they stopped the ANZACS at Chunack Bair .
    Turkey has a professional army, they do not have twenty year old draftees pretending to be platoon sargeants.

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  198. Patrick Starr (3,675 comments) says:

    So what is the ‘true nature’ of Hamas, and what makes a ‘responsible human being’?

    “On Monday, Hamas leader Mahmoud Zahar exhorted Palestinians to fight the Israeli forces and target Israeli civilians and Jews abroad”

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10550648&pnum=3

    “target Israeli civilians and Jews abroad” yep, Hamas are nothing but murdering terrorists and the world will be a better place without them

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