Titles are back

March 8th, 2009 at 3:46 pm by David Farrar

The Labour Government abolished titles for our top , with pretty much no consultation.

National had indicated for some time it was likely to reverse this, and today they have done so.

Like Dean Knight, I’m a staunch Republican, but also a supporter of our top honours having titles. It makes them more meaningful. We see this in academia also where the top staff get a title of Professor, and top students can get the title of Doctor for a PhD.

The top two levels of the NZ Order of Merit will revert to their old titles of Knight and Dame Grand Companion (GNZM) and Knight and Dame Companion (KNZM/DNZM). They had been changed to Principal Companion and Dinstinguished Companion.

The 85 NZers who got one of those titles in the last few years have the option of accepting a title. It is up to them.

Interestingly is not resuming the practice of recommending top Judges and Ministers to the Privy Council, which gets the person a Rt Hon. This means he will never be the Rt Hon . The last Prime Minister not to be a Rt Hon was Sir Thomas Mackenzie who served from March until July 1912 only.

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112 Responses to “Titles are back”

  1. Inventory2 (10,337 comments) says:

    Best news of the day. Arise Sir Colin Meads!

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  2. Manolo (13,746 comments) says:

    What about the chameleonic and despised Jim Bolger? It would be almost an affront to decency to call him Sir.

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  3. Sushi Goblin (419 comments) says:

    Those leftist destructive scum are going to throw up when they hear the words “Sir Donald Brash”.

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  4. reid (16,442 comments) says:

    Now let’s restore the Privy Council, as well.

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  5. billyborker (1,102 comments) says:

    Good old jonkey, can always be relied upon to tackle the most pressing issues facing the nation.

    [DPF: You're obviously never learnt to multi-task, have you? Hey quick commenting on blogs is stopping you getting an education - best tackle your most pressing issue]

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  6. Jack5 (5,137 comments) says:

    Further to Manolo on Bolger at 3.56…

    Bolger is one of the most prominent republicans we’ve had in NZ. It would be hypocrisy for him to accept a knighthood. It’s an honor steeped in the monarchy tradition.

    Sorry DPF, you miss out too.

    [DPF: Afraid not. They are NZ honours, not British honours. Big difference. As for Bolger he has made it very clear on several occassions that he would not accept a Knighhood if offered]

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  7. Sushi Goblin (419 comments) says:

    Well done Billy, for completely missing the point. Have you had a history of retardation in your family?

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  8. Mike S (229 comments) says:

    I’m pleased. It’s nice to have a little bit of poetry in life.

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  9. Manolo (13,746 comments) says:

    “Bolger is one of the most prominent republicans we’ve had in NZ. It would be hypocrisy for him to accept a knighthood.”

    Nothing is hypocrisy for Bolger. He has very flexible, almost malleable, principles and is capable of changing colours at the drop of a hat (or the smell of money). He’s done in the past and well may do it again.

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  10. Jack5 (5,137 comments) says:

    What about a new uniquely NZ honour at a lower level to complement knighthoods and damehoods?

    The courtesy title for male recipients could be Bro. I’m not sure what we’d do for women. Perhaps Sro. The title of the order could be the Brohood of NZ. The dress uniform could be a black hood. The medal bestowed would be warn backwards to hang over the back.

    This might quickly put the young proletariat off hoodies, and similarly off grunting “bro”.

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  11. Glutaemus Maximus (2,207 comments) says:

    Bork Bork is really ‘Screaming LORD SUTCH’

    Why bother dealing with success, reality, prosperity, common sense, when you can be a negative drone.

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  12. billyborker (1,102 comments) says:

    reid (2164) Vote: 2 1 Says:

    March 8th, 2009 at 3:58 pm
    Now let’s restore the Privy Council, as well.

    reid is typical of the small minded fools that hold this nation back.

    Honours – oh no, we could never make up our own, knighthoods are so much better.

    Law – our lawyers are not as clever as the nice English ones, and they may even understand NZ and get the “wrong” decision.

    Government – we can’t be trusted to govern ourselves, let’s get the UK to do that for us too.

    Just why don’t you people want to grow and mature?

    [DPF: The NZ Honours scheme is no longer part of the British scheme. The traditions come from there, but it is now the NZ Order of Merit, not the Order of the British Empire]

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  13. Inventory2 (10,337 comments) says:

    borker said “reid is typical of the small minded fools that hold this nation back.”

    Pot, meet kettle

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  14. reid (16,442 comments) says:

    Just why don’t you people want to grow and mature?

    Billy, Knighthoods have status and cache internationally and amongst discerning NZers.

    The Privy Council consists of the absolute best legal minds in the entire Western World. I would put them above the US Supreme Court.

    And we give both of these things away for what?

    So we can play ‘mouse that roared?’

    That’s pathetic, small minded, petty and idiotic.

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  15. Sushi Goblin (419 comments) says:

    Borker fails to understand that we already had a New Zealand Honours system as of 1996 – a whole three years prior to the 1999 election.

    KNZM = Knight Commander of the NZ Order of Merit, instead of KBE (British system). We adapted the British system to create a unique NZ system, then Helen decided to rip it away in a fit of socialistic pique.

    Borker also seems disparaging of the legal skills of those on the Privy Council. Given the incredible rich history of legal jurisprudence in the UK, that’s pretty gutsy on his part. About the only area where I think the NZ Supreme Court would have a superior ability to deal with NZ law would be Treaty case law.

    That being said, restoring titles is easy – it requires no infrastructure or serious dollars. Abolishing the NZ Supreme court would be more dramatic. Now we have it, I think we should keep it, but it certainly doesn’t change the fact that British legal procedure and thoughts are perhaps the worlds best.

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  16. Stuart Mackey (337 comments) says:

    # billyborker (330) Vote: Add rating 0 Subtract rating 1 Says:
    March 8th, 2009 at 4:13 pm

    Government – we can’t be trusted to govern ourselves, let’s get the UK to do that for us too.

    Just why don’t you people want to grow and mature?

    Not that you will ever back up your claim with any evidence, eh?
    I can understand a person not wanting titles of some kind, or the privy council, but to claim that NZ is somehow governed by the UK is either wilfully ignorant or just plain ignorant.
    To suggest that we will not grow or mature as a nation because of these titles or the Monarchy is to have no knowledge of history, as such institutions are inevitably adapted by the host nation to suit, as such I assume you will be railing against these horrid French titles before long (that’s right, our Monarchy and its titles are French in origin, introduced to England by the Normans after 1066).

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  17. Ross Miller (1,704 comments) says:

    I applaud the move and it will be interesting to see if any of the Labour activists (e.g. Margaret Wilson) appointed to those top two levels of the NZ Order of Merit in the past few years opt to restyle themselves accordingly. I suspect some will not be able to resist the opportunity because underneath the veneer of socialist equality lies a certain latent snobbery – Chardoney over Lion Red et seq.

    But accepting the title is a two edged sword. Sure it might help get you an uograde on an international flight but you can be assured the begging letters fron charities you have never heard of will come flooding in.

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  18. Stuart Mackey (337 comments) says:

    I have to say I am glad to have the titles back, adds a sense of class and grace to an otherwise dreary, drab and boring system.
    However I wish I could say that having the titles back should give its holders immediate recognition as a person worthy of some respect for some great deed, but that’s not the case. So long as there is political interference in the granting of honours in this country it will always be something less than it could be, for the public will always wonder what favours were rendered for the award of the title and they will be right to be suspicious. What did Bolger do to deserve the nations highest honour, or Jonathan Hunt, a world record for parliamentary longevity, amount spent on taxi chits or a record consumption of savouries at a diplomatic function?
    If the public have held the honours system in contempt in the past, surely it must be the requirement for a political approval to get a gong, and who knows what the price of that approval might be?

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  19. mickysavage (786 comments) says:

    What a great move. All that Key needs to do is now bring back serfs and we will again have a medieval system and economy.

    So that is what is behind his economic policies …

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  20. johnbt (90 comments) says:

    Jonathon Hunt. Sir Jonathon Hunt. FFS. (Please excuse the crudity. Too many gins this afternoon.)

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  21. Stuart Mackey (337 comments) says:

    # mickysavage (234) Vote: Add rating 0 Subtract rating1 Says:
    March 8th, 2009 at 5:08 pm

    What a great move. All that Key needs to do is now bring back serfs and we will again have a medieval system and economy.

    So that is what is behind his economic policies …

    Because in your world the firefighter who risks his life to save a family doesn’t deserve recognition, eh? You would rather they be forgotten in obscurity for their lifetime, I am sure, out of some misplaced sense of egalitarianism.

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  22. s.russell (1,641 comments) says:

    Like DPF, I support this despite my republican leanings.

    Unlike the UK where so many people are Sirs or Dames or Lords because some distant ancestor was good at sucking up to Charles I or whoever, New Zealand titles are for life only and are (generally) awarded to people who have earned it. I have found it miserably disappointing that such people recently have gotten nothing more lasting than a few letters to put at the end of their name in formal correspondence.

    I wrote (in my January 08 Daily Post column) that our honours are “all too often invisible”.

    “Recipients get their name on a list in the papers, they might get a few paragraphs in the local paper. They get a little ceremony at Government House with the Governor General and a medal to take home. After that …
    The medal gets tucked into a drawer and forgotten. The letters after your name are seldom used.

    “I can’t help thinking that the people who earn these awards deserve more. We are, after all, right to be honouring them. They are extraordinary people whose selfless dedication and effort have made New Zealand a better place. “

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  23. Stuart Mackey (337 comments) says:

    # johnbt (27) Vote: Add rating 0 Subtract rating 0 Says:
    March 8th, 2009 at 5:15 pm

    Jonathon Hunt. Sir Jonathon Hunt. FFS. (Please excuse the crudity. Too many gins this afternoon.)

    No apologies necessary, I am sober and the thought of Jonathan Hunt having a knighthood makes me wish I was not sober.

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  24. Sushi Goblin (419 comments) says:

    Sir William Apiata VC has a lovely ring to it.

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  25. tvb (4,417 comments) says:

    This is a good move though I am surprised John Key has done this I thought he said they would not be back. People like the Sir and Dame as it recognises talent. The problem is these titles can and have been hawked off. The only change I would make is the wife of a Sir should not be “Lady”, there is no corresponding thing for men if the wife becomes Dame.

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  26. tvb (4,417 comments) says:

    Seems they have allowed a courtesy title of Lady for women provided they use the knighted husband’s surname and continue to do so. Be interesting to see how many take up the option to become a Sir/Dame. I always liked the appellation and hopefully it will continue.

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  27. dime (9,972 comments) says:

    OUTSTANDING! this has long been on my wish list!

    The fact that its sent rabid lefties over the edge is just a bonus :)

    Sir Russell Coutts:)

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  28. Fletch (6,367 comments) says:

    Best news I’ve heard all week. It’s about time they brought it back. Sorry, but that NZ Order of Merit was kind of meaningless.
    I’ve heard someone mention it before, but doesn’t NZ feel like a better place now? Like a huge oppressive weight has been lifted off the country.

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  29. big bruv (13,884 comments) says:

    Great stuff!

    Yes it will stick in my throat to see wankers like Hunt, Coutts, Cullen (and he WILL get one) being called Sir but that is a small price to pay, the stupid system we have was simply not good enough.

    I only hope that Key does not go all soft on the pinko’s, Labour will pester the hell out of him to honour people like Mike Williams, Maggot Wilson and even Klark herself.

    That would be far to much to handle.

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  30. Glutaemus Maximus (2,207 comments) says:

    Titles would have been changed again anyway.

    1) Sacred Keeper of the Killing Fields.

    2) Beautiful Upholder of the 5 year plan.

    3) Cunning Comrade of the greatest leap forward

    4) Great suppressor of the evil Internet.

    5) Fantastic Forgery Folklore.

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  31. Kimble (4,438 comments) says:

    Misread the headline. Was thinking “when have boobs ever been unpopular?”

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  32. stuarts-burgers (96 comments) says:

    Inventor at 3.48pm
    Now we need to workout if we can get him to change his name by deedpoll to Pine Tree.
    I think that Sir Pine Tree Meads has a certain ring about do you not agree

    Some may think that to do so could be mocking the system but I think that it shows the type of Country we are willing to honour our heroes but still not so far up our selves that we need to be to formal about it.

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  33. Ryan Sproull (7,115 comments) says:

    This is very cool.

    31 comments and no one’s mentioned Sir Peter Jackson?

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  34. penny svoreiz (5 comments) says:

    well i for one think it’s a fantastic thing to have the titles of ‘sir’ and ‘dame’ back! it will give the people who have earnt our highest respect a chance to be recognised internationally (and locally) in a way that is easily understood. I’m sure I wasn’t the only one who would look at the new year honours list and have to google to work out what all the new titles meant. also big echoes/agreement with s.russell, tvb, fletch and big bruv.
    re. micky savage et al… sigh… perhaps some people only see what they want to see, and will twist anything to avoid admitting they might be wrong about a party/person?

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  35. penny svoreiz (5 comments) says:

    (also i found the fact that they had orginally been taken away without even consulting with the new zealand public arrogant, insulting, sneaky and more than a little off)

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  36. deanknight (263 comments) says:

    Yeah – partly good news. But no mention of Te Reo equivalents. That for me was an important part – recognising our shared histories and cultures.

    [DPF: I agree that would be good. Why not push for it through Maori Party? I'd be happy to help!]

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  37. Stuart Mackey (337 comments) says:

    # big bruv (2903) Vote: Add rating3 Subtract rating 0 Says:
    March 8th, 2009 at 6:28 pm

    Great stuff!

    Yes it will stick in my throat to see wankers like Hunt, Coutts, Cullen (and he WILL get one) being called Sir but that is a small price to pay, the stupid system we have was simply not good enough.

    I only hope that Key does not go all soft on the pinko’s, Labour will pester the hell out of him to honour people like Mike Williams, Maggot Wilson and even Klark herself.

    That would be far to much to handle.

    Indeed it would be too much to handle, that’s why the system of how such things are awarded needs urgent modification to remove political interference. Ideally the decision making process should not involve politicians serving or retired or any current or former political appointees like a certain (recently)former president of the Labour party.

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  38. deanknight (263 comments) says:

    See further:

    http://www.laws179.co.nz/2009/03/yes-sir.html

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  39. Stuart Mackey (337 comments) says:

    # deanknight (189) Vote: Add rating 0 Subtract rating2 Says:
    March 8th, 2009 at 7:14 pm

    Yeah – partly good news. But no mention of Te Reo equivalents. That for me was an important part – recognising our shared histories and cultures.

    I was not aware that Maori society ever developed equivalents to European/Japanese military/social honorific’s for services rendered to a country/Lord, I could be wrong of course, but if not then I fail to see why something like it should be made up for subjective political expediency.

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  40. goodgod (1,348 comments) says:

    I only hope that Key does not go all soft on the pinko’s, Labour will pester the hell out of him to honour people like Mike Williams, Maggot Wilson and even Klark herself.

    What, Key go tribal? No chance.

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  41. Viking2 (11,467 comments) says:

    Does Sir Owen Glen sound a bit catchy? Better than being an Honorary Council to some minor state.
    Just another for the list and oh of course don’t forget our most enduring politician. I refer of course to the Honorable (Sir) Winston Raymond Peters.
    Now that really would Make Whaleoil regurgitate his ambergris on a Monday Morning.

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  42. grumpyoldhori (2,362 comments) says:

    This old Labour type is right in favor of bringing knighthoods back.
    As for political interference in awarding them why not set up a body to oversee who gets what, Dame Susan Devoy, Sir Brian Lochore would be a couple of good picks to start with.

    Damn, more Republican types to have shortened up by HM’s loyal wood chopping company.
    Look at the good part we will be shortening up Nats, Labour types, Greens
    and ACT types, no horis, bugger all horis want a Republic.

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  43. grumpy (260 comments) says:

    Who TF is this “Billyborker”? I reckon it’s DPF winding us all up. Surely nobody is that thick?

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  44. deanknight (263 comments) says:

    SM:

    I’m not sure the Governor-General previously took to the oath of office in Te Reo before. Or faced a powhiri before inspecting the troops.

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  45. Paul Marsden (998 comments) says:

    billyborker (330) Vote: 1 22 Says:

    March 8th, 2009 at 4:13 pm
    reid (2164) Vote: 2 1 Says:

    March 8th, 2009 at 3:58 pm
    Now let’s restore the Privy Council, as well.

    reid is typical of the small minded fools that hold this nation back.

    Honours – oh no, we could never make up our own, knighthoods are so much better.

    Law – our lawyers are not as clever as the nice English ones, and they may even understand NZ and get the “wrong” decision.’

    So BP, do you think that in the matter of David Bain, that the Privy Council was wrong to slap the legs of the NZ Judicary and tell them to go back and do their home work again….. and without screwing up??

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  46. big bruv (13,884 comments) says:

    Those who deserve to be knighted include…

    Don Brash
    Richard Prebble
    Ian Taylor
    John Banks
    Jonah Lomu
    Willie Apiata
    Peter Montgomery
    Evers Swindel Twins
    Sarah Ulmer
    Ian Ferguson
    Paul McDonald
    Owen Glenn
    Peter Leitch
    John Todd
    John Walker

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  47. Paul Marsden (998 comments) says:

    Everyone ‘cept Lomu. Over rated. No brain.

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  48. Fairfacts Media (372 comments) says:

    A good list from Big Bruv

    But what about Baron Don Brash

    and

    Earl Key of Kumeu

    Let’s have a House of Lords too.
    A second chamber

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  49. sonic (2,818 comments) says:

    You guys are really desperate to have somebody to bow and scrape to.

    Is tugging your forelocks really that much fun?

    [DPF: Nothing to do with that. Do you bow to someone if they are called Professor or Doctor?]

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  50. billyborker (1,102 comments) says:

    sonic, seems it is since they pulled their forseskins over their heads and can now just whistle through the hole …

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  51. dad4justice (8,214 comments) says:

    You are one very sick unit billy. Great mate you got chronic sonic. Sick scum of the earth!

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  52. Don the Kiwi (1,750 comments) says:

    Can’t work out the bleating from our lefty retards about this. We still have our links to the British Crown – let’s see:
    Governor General – (went to school with Anand) – the Queen’s representative, and titular head of state.
    Royal Commisions of Inquiry.
    Legal experts – Queen’s Council.
    Our whole legal system and parliamentary system is based on the British system.

    Have heard enough from wankers like billyborker the pigporker, and mickeysavage – all we need now is for greenfly to lay his flyspots on this combox to really downgrade the topic.

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  53. billyborker (1,102 comments) says:

    Fairfacts Media (131) Vote: 0 0 Says:

    Let’s have a House of Lords too.


    t just gets worse and worse, doesn’t it? Can’t have the horrid peopled deciding on a government, they might see through Jonkey and throw him out at the next election. We need an Upper House to thwart democracy!

    [DPF: And again a fact free post. Upper Houses are there to restrict the power of the Lower House. Personally I don't support having one, but I can debate one logically rather than with slogans]

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  54. kiki (425 comments) says:

    bean counters, sportspeople and politicians, just great!

    Where are the scientists and engineers who will create our future?

    Why do we have this stupid obsession with sports? and the idea that a politician deserves anything? I always thought the pumped up ego and power trip is their reward.

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  55. billyborker (1,102 comments) says:

    Don the Kiwi (176) Vote: 0 1 Says:

    March 8th, 2009 at 8:53 pm
    Can’t work out the bleating from our lefty retards about this. We still have our links to the British Crown – let’s see:
    Governor General – (went to school with Anand) – the Queen’s representative, and titular head of state.

    Only as long as he stays in NZ. Outside NZ he is just Mr Satyanand. The queen is NZ’s HoS, the GG simply her representative in NZ, HRH is NZ’s HoS everywhere else.

    Still, wouldn’t expect any real understanding from a right wing nutbar fruitjob.

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  56. big bruv (13,884 comments) says:

    Sonic

    “You guys are really desperate to have somebody to bow and scrape to.

    Is tugging your forelocks really that much fun?”

    It’s about recognising people for their good work and service to the community without placing them on some board at the tax payers expense.

    Not that I expect you to understand

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  57. Paul Marsden (998 comments) says:

    Kiki. I agree. It’s bullshit, though a world class athlete at the top of their game for a number of years, can deliver a high profile fo NZ on the world stage, and has to be worth a brownie point or, two.

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  58. Stuart Mackey (337 comments) says:

    # deanknight (191) Vote: Add rating 0 Subtract rating 1 Says:
    March 8th, 2009 at 8:21 pm

    SM:

    I’m not sure the Governor-General previously took to the oath of office in Te Reo before. Or faced a powhiri before inspecting the troops.

    Oh, nice, a red herring argument, what has that to do with what I wrote? nothing. Care to answer the question of Maori having or not having equivalents to Knighthoods, and if not, why they should be made up and used for political reasons, instead of throwing out fallacious nonsense? Please note that I don’t actually know, which is why I stated that I could be wrong, but even if I am, that is not in and of itself a good reason to use such titles, made up or not.
    After all we have not seen the title of Huscarl or Theagn used in the UK, letalone, here in the modern honours system.

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  59. stephen (4,063 comments) says:

    Good point kiki!

    Peter Hunter, Peter Gluckman and Richard Faull are not names heard often enough – they just do their jobs, but it’s not something that the media or the public is particularly interested in, unfortunately. Just the facts, sportos and policiticans perform on the national stage, where they are extremely visible.

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  60. Scott (1,792 comments) says:

    Very pleasing move and shows a recognition of history and tradition,without getting bogged down in it.The titles are part of our rich heritage and I am pleased that they are back.
    I like just about everything this government is doing and all power to them. Great stuff!

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  61. billyborker (1,102 comments) says:

    [DPF: And again a fact free post. Upper Houses are there to restrict the power of the Lower House. Personally I don't support having one, but I can debate one logically rather than with slogans]

    Upper Houses are there to restrict the power of the Lower House sounds remarkably like Upper Houses are there to thwart democracy.

    Upper Houses have their genesis in the aristocracy attempting to retain control, and usually came with a male property owneer franchise. Democracy had to be forced on them, or they had to be disestablished. NZ seems to function quite well without one. Oz has one, but how was Oz under Howard with a majority in Senate and House the better for haveing 2 houses?

    So, saying the desire for an upper house is to thwart democracy is based in historical fact, not sloganeering.

    [DPF: At least you have put together an argument this time. Good. But you argument that upper houses thwart democracy hardly holds up when around 90% of democratic countries have one. And in Australia Howard only had a majority in the Senate for a small fraction of his entire time in power]

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  62. deanknight (263 comments) says:

    SM:

    According to various Maori dictionaries, there are equivalent translations. I’m not arguing that Maori necessarily have a similar system (such as Samoa, where Matai chiefly title system). In any event, language and culture evolve.

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  63. expat (4,050 comments) says:

    Quite.

    Either a) divorce NZ totally from the Crown or b) continue on with ot.

    I see no point making arbitrary splits to feed ‘the not-quite-sure-of-themselves-re:-total-republicanism-lets-go-half-way-and-then-run-a-few-focus-groups-on-the-topic-in-a-few-years’ leanings of Labour.

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  64. Stuart Mackey (337 comments) says:

    # deanknight (192) Vote: Add rating 0 Subtract rating 0 Says:
    March 8th, 2009 at 9:20 pm

    SM:

    According to various Maori dictionaries, there are equivalent translations. I’m not arguing that Maori necessarily have a similar system (such as Samoa, where Matai chiefly title system). In any event, language and culture evolve.

    Cool, thank you. However I still don’t see a compelling reason to have such wording for titles in the honours system, as I said above, we don’t have Huscarl or Theagn, yet they were English equivalents before that unfortunate incident in 1066.

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  65. Inventory2 (10,337 comments) says:

    billy borker said “Upper Houses are there to restrict the power of the Lower House sounds remarkably like Upper Houses are there to thwart democracy.”

    No billy borker – the Upper House is there to ensure that democracy is protected. Would an Upper House have endorsed the passage of the Electoral Finance Act, for which there was widespread condemnation for example. I think not.

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  66. expat (4,050 comments) says:

    The real issue for bork et al is that the CTU isn’t the upper house.

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  67. billyborker (1,102 comments) says:

    Inventory2 (2646) Vote: 0 0 Says:

    March 8th, 2009 at 9:33 pm
    BORKER SAID “Upper Houses are there to restrict the power of the Lower House sounds remarkably like Upper Houses are there to thwart democracy.”

    No billy borker – the Upper House is there to ensure that democracy is protected. Would an Upper House have endorsed the passage of the Electoral Finance Act, for which there was widespread condemnation for example. I think not.

    If the Upper House was controlled by the govt, then yes. All you ned to do is look at Oz under Howard with a majority in both houses to see that it is nothing about “protecting democracy”. It does, however, have a lot to do with protecting the privelege of the Thieving Right.

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  68. deanknight (263 comments) says:

    SM:

    Perhaps we are nowadays just a bit more enlighted and prepared to accomodate different cultures and traditions?

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  69. big bruv (13,884 comments) says:

    I am surprised to see Borker back here after the hammering he took on Friday night.

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  70. Paul Marsden (998 comments) says:

    Let society decide who would be worthy particpants of the mana and wearing the mantle of Knighthood amongst us, and not politicians. Perhaps this could be conducted by an annual referendum via various media and/or, mail?

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  71. billyborker (1,102 comments) says:

    hammering? In your dreams!

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  72. big bruv (13,884 comments) says:

    deanknight

    One of the reasons the public were not happy with the NZ honours system was that they found it impossible to understand, no amount of posturing by Klark and co could replace the instant respect a “Sir or Dame” gave the holder

    I fail to see how a Maori system would change that situation.

    And before you and DPF rush off to change more of MY HERITAGE in your silly push for republicanism I would like to be consulted, after all its not as if we would ever consider taking away Maori titles or customs overnight and against the will of the people is it.

    [DPF: No taking away involved - just about letting the recipients choose whether their title be in English or Maori]

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  73. Paul Marsden (998 comments) says:

    Participants?? Try recipents.

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  74. expat (4,050 comments) says:

    Personally I think NZ should become a republic as fast as possible and that titles are an anachronism. There is no point however going halfway because you arent too sure of the focus group opinions.

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  75. Barnsley Bill (983 comments) says:

    I hold no truck with titles, one of the only real egalitarian aspects of this country is our informal approach to addressing each other.
    And as such I am still disgusted that Jonathon Hunt was elevated to the same status as Ed Hilary.
    Can anybody tell me why this fat old ???? got a MONZ?
    Was it for running up the biggest taxi bill the world has ever seen?
    Or was it for drinking cathay pacific first class champagne stocks completely dry (As witnessed by me)
    Or maybe it was for having the cheek to apply for a British pension within a week of arriving in London as our highly paid and undeserving high commissioner?
    Or maybe it was for shaming us all by running back to his limo at his first cenotaph service because it rained and left the Queen and our less effete commonwealth and world war allies to stand respectfully by the tomb of the unknown soldier?

    Actually he got the gong for being a mentor to that crazy witch who we turfed out in November, guiding and sponsoring her through the labyrinthine and bizarre ranks of the Labour party from Princes street to the treasury benches.

    [DPF: Hillary and Hunt were both ONZ, but Hillary was also KG which trumps everything else]

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  76. wikiriwhis business (3,996 comments) says:

    Ok,

    I understand you National supporters over rating the Don, in fact I can tolerate that.

    Simply can’t understand the fascination for Richard ‘I won’t sell the workshops’ Prebble.

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  77. big bruv (13,884 comments) says:

    Absolutely Borker, I particularly liked the blatant lie you told us about your old man.

    Have you no shame?

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  78. Rex Widerstrom (5,354 comments) says:

    When did this tendency to knight sportspeople start? Time was a gong was reserved for those who’d done something that benefited others (winning a few battles or a VC, say, or discovering a cure for some disease or tending to the wounded). There was usually some tacit recognition of foregone opportunity in the service of others. Now you can get one for running round in circles quicker than other people. Kind of devalues the whole thing, no?

    Sorry, big bruv, but I can’t see an equivalence between the actions of Willie Apiata and Jonah Lomu.

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  79. big bruv (13,884 comments) says:

    Expat

    “Personally I think NZ should become a republic as fast as possible”

    Thankfully it “ain’t” going to happen in your or my lifetime, that battle will be a long and potentially bloody one.

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  80. expat (4,050 comments) says:

    Rex, agree. Sure an historic Olympic medal of the like but the cult of professional sportspeople esp. Rugby players in NZ has been tiresome and oversold for decades now. Much like the oversold cult of the Labour movement.

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  81. Stuart Mackey (337 comments) says:

    # billyborker (335) Vote: Add rating 0 Subtract rating3 Says:
    March 8th, 2009 at 9:17 pm

    [DPF: And again a fact free post. Upper Houses are there to restrict the power of the Lower House. Personally I don't support having one, but I can debate one logically rather than with slogans]

    Upper Houses are there to restrict the power of the Lower House sounds remarkably like Upper Houses are there to thwart democracy.

    Upper Houses have their genesis in the aristocracy attempting to retain control, and usually came with a male property owneer franchise. Democracy had to be forced on them, or they had to be disestablished. NZ seems to function quite well without one. Oz has one, but how was Oz under Howard with a majority in Senate and House the better for haveing 2 houses?

    So, saying the desire for an upper house is to thwart democracy is based in historical fact, not sloganeering.

    Actually, what you have written above is called a strawman argument, that is to say cherrypicking from history to present a self determined weak argument, which is easier to knock down than a real argument. In more modern times upper houses, at least in democratic nations (barring the UK early in the 20th century), tend to be used as a democratic means for the electorate to moderate a government or administration via uneven voting periods and/or longer terms, like the US senate. There is some validity in what you say for earlier times, but its worth noting that Magna Carta was forced upon King John by his own titled aristocratic landowners, the Barons. We owe our many of our traditions of parliamentary democracy and basic rights to those aristocratic Barons.

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  82. Don the Kiwi (1,750 comments) says:

    Before we rush into becoming a republic, we need to have federal union with Australia. The Australian constitution still has provision for NZ.
    Then we would have a republic worth having.

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  83. expat (4,050 comments) says:

    BB, once the old timers kick the clogs NZ will be a republic.

    The aussies messed up their chance.

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  84. big bruv (13,884 comments) says:

    Rex

    First of all let me say it is refreshing to read a post where the writer disagrees with another member without that post being one full of abuse and insults, Borker and Sonic would do well to follow your example.

    My reason for suggesting Lomu has little to do with his on field rugby exploits, more to do with the massive amount of unpaid and often unseen work he does for charity and renal causes.
    I use that criteria when I consider any sports person for an honour, in my book it is how they used their sporting fame to benefit others that makes then worthy.

    While I am on that subject I should have included the name of Wynton Rufer in my list of people I would like to see honoured.

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  85. big bruv (13,884 comments) says:

    expat

    This “old timer” is still in the early part of middle age, it will not be happening in my lifetime I can tell you.

    Elections will be won and lost on this subject, this is why it has not and will not be pushed as a major issue by either party.

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  86. expat (4,050 comments) says:

    Agree BB, that said NZ would do well to develop more of a sense of nation and self as a people. Kiwi’s, in general, are a bit unsure of who they are and tend to overcompensate on the world stage at times. Case in point the endless cring inducing Haka’s (poorly) performed by white middle class pissed kiwis.

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  87. Stuart Mackey (337 comments) says:

    # deanknight (193) Vote: Add rating 1 Subtract rating 1 Says:
    March 8th, 2009 at 9:37 pm

    SM:

    Perhaps we are nowadays just a bit more enlighted and prepared to accomodate different cultures and traditions?

    Why is it ‘enlightened’ to force people to adopt something that is foreign to most people in a nation, even if it is from the first settlers, that they may not want? Better to allow a nations culture to evolve overtime without interference from subjective minority governments that can never truly reflect an entire nation on such matters.

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  88. big bruv (13,884 comments) says:

    Expat

    On this we agree, I think I have mentioned before how I avoided Kiwi’s like the plague during my seven years in the UK, I was often mistaken for an Aussie and I hardly every corrected that mistake.

    Half the problem we have is the lefts insistence that we honkies do not have a culture and that in their fucked up minds that means we should embrace the Maori culture, I disagree, where I came from and where my ancestors come from is just as important to me as it is to Maori people and I am fucked if any bone carving wearing liberal honky is going to tell me that is not important.

    BTW..just to clarify things I was NOT accusing you of being a bone carving wearing liberal.

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  89. Paul Marsden (998 comments) says:

    Personally, I think it is important to the structure of society, that we acknowledge those who contribute most to it. To be be revered by one’s peers is perhaps after all, the one of the highest accolades an individual can achieve in life. And who knows, it may even have carry over into the education system, where teachers might once again, be referred to as ‘Sir’ I liittle respect goes along way to law and order in society, and it may also have many downstream benefits.

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  90. Jack5 (5,137 comments) says:

    Expat wrote at 9.53: “nce the old timers kick the clogs NZ will be a republic.”

    How are you going to square it with the Treaty of Waitangi, Expat?

    And on the suggestion of parallel Maori honours, we might ask Maori instead of trying to set it up for them. I think many, like Sir Howard Morrison, Dame Kiri Te Kanawa etc might have worthwhile views on whether there should be two systems.
    They might just prefer access to selection of who will be knights and dames, e.g. including the Maori King for example.

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  91. transmogrifier (522 comments) says:

    I’m all for recognising the achievements of others, and I don’t really mind how we do it, as long as the recipient is made aware of how much our society appreciates their contribution. I was fine with Sirs/Dames, and I was fine with the new system, and I suspect most of the “debate” here is merely a pretense for your typical “your bloke’s are wrong”, “no your blokes are wrong” grandstanding orgy of blanket dismissals of anyone on the other side. Payback for the some members right, defense from some of the left.

    The rest of us shrug our shoulders and get on with our lives.

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  92. wikiriwhis business (3,996 comments) says:

    Ok,

    Newsflash, new years honours list 2010: Knighthoods for Kullen @ Klark

    ROFL!!!!!!!!

    The hypocrite commo’s will take them!!!!!!!!

    Duck misses out due to criminal record hahahahahahaha

    and coming up the rear, oh nooooooo, it’s Johnothan ‘say nothing’ Hunt , taking honours! !

    Dear oh dear.

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  93. oob (191 comments) says:

    Sushi Goblin: Sir William Apiata VC has a lovely ring to it.

    A VC is an appropriate award for action in a military theatre. Appointment to an Order is generally for other types of services rendered, primarily these days to general society.

    [DPF: The NZ Honours scheme is no longer part of the British scheme. The traditions come from there, but it is now the NZ Order of Merit, not the Order of the British Empire]

    Citizens of New Zealand are still eligible for all of the Empire Orders, including the B.E. Appointment to both of the New Zealand Orders is at the sole discretion of the Crown. The citations of each recipient are signed by the reigning monarch in his/her own hand.

    Stuart Mackey: So long as there is political interference in the granting of honours in this country it will always be something less than it could be, for the public will always wonder what favours were rendered for the award of the title and they will be right to be suspicious.

    The current vetting involves the Herald Extraordinary, the Governor General, his secretary, the Cabinet, the P.M. and the Monarch. It’s a solid system, though the timing of a nomination ought to take into account the Party in Office.

    s.russell: The medal gets tucked into a drawer and forgotten.

    Not so. “Decorations to be worn” still appears on the invitation to almost all occasions of State.

    Fletch: Sorry, but that NZ Order of Merit was kind of meaningless.

    The NZOM (and there’s another, the ONZ) are bona fide Orders of Chivalry. They’re staying, justly so.

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  94. oob (191 comments) says:

    Sushi Goblin: Sir William Apiata VC has a lovely ring to it.

    A VC is an appropriate award for action in a military theatre. Appointment to an Order is generally for other types of services rendered, primarily these days to general society.

    I should also add, that while the Victoria Cross does not bestow the use of an honorific, it’s still the highest award available to the citizens of the Commonwealth; the post-nominal “V.C.” carries far more esteem than an honorific.

    In the order of wear, Willie Apiata can only go left. Nothing is fixed to the right of a piece of Sebastapol cannon, even if it was made in China.

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  95. Cactus Kate (551 comments) says:

    Reid

    I would be more impressed if National chucked out Labour appointees to the Supreme Court and replaced them with some good hard right wing Judges.

    If there are any left out there.

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  96. sonic (2,818 comments) says:

    [DPF: Nothing to do with that. Do you bow to someone if they are called Professor or Doctor?]

    Those titles are earned. You are cheering over the title “knight” being reintroduced to the country. Will they have to sit a jousting test (just to see if they are up to it you understand)

    As for Dame………

    You have to love the Tories though, always in thrall to the past.

    [DPF: I love someone who uses the term Tory (a term never used in NZ) complains about being in thrall to the past. Pot meet Kettle]

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  97. expat (4,050 comments) says:

    BigBruv, I was about to rush out and buy a cow bone carving from Victoria Park Markets and then find a Grey Lynn vegan cafe to hangout in. You have saved me ;)

    Jack5 – with all due respect, once NZ ditches the British monarchy what does New Zealand get called?
    The Socialist Workers Eco – Aotearoa Treaty?
    Also, what do a couple of singers awarded honours (and who happen to be Maori) have to offer on the topic?

    Sonic – do you study politics?

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  98. reid (16,442 comments) says:

    I would be more impressed if National chucked out Labour appointees to the Supreme Court and replaced them with some good hard right wing Judges. If there are any left out there.

    Yes Kate, you’d have to look pretty hard, these days.

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  99. the deity formerly known as nigel6888 (852 comments) says:

    Hmm thinking of new appointees, this could the first time Ms Clark has been called a dame in decades?

    :)

    On a serious note, the same lefties screeching about adopting foreign titles again, are all over themselves recognising indigenous inherited chiefly titles and insisting they be used all over the place.

    witness Taito PP

    etc etc

    it is only western european culture that must be despised.

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  100. tvb (4,417 comments) says:

    There will be an awful lot of Professors getting the title Sir and Dame, she gonged everyone she could in that area. But recognising high achievement I think is a good thing. The Americans have an informal system in which a person retains a courtesy title of the highest public role they held. And it is used often.

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  101. Dave Mann (1,218 comments) says:

    I’m with you on the sports people, Rex….. but I’m even more opposed to TV personalities getting a title. The idea of a “Sir Peter Montgomery” just demeans the whole thing to idiot proportions for me, sorry.

    Having said that, I have LONG wished that NZ would re-institute the titles as it really DOES give a tangible recognition to people who (mainly) have achieved something notable and worthwhile in their lives. There will always be disagreements regarding whether so-and-so deserves one, of course, but that’s no reason to have scrapped they system entirely.

    Good on you John Key for re-instituting knighthoods. Well done! It is also very interesting to note how astute John Boy has been in not according the automatic ‘Rt Hon’ (and ‘Hon”??) to politicians and judges. This is a direct and frankly very honest move which sends the clear signal that people who have risen – or maybe bribed, blackmailed, politicked or bullied – their way to these positions might not necessarily be ‘honourable’ at all! Again, John has his finger on the button.

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  102. Murray (8,847 comments) says:

    “billyborker (337) Vote: Add rating 4 Subtract rating53 Says:
    March 8th, 2009 at 3:58 pm

    Good old jonkey, can always be relied upon to tackle the most pressing issues facing the nation.”

    Interesting how billy bonkers came right out with the green party line before it had been delivered by the media.

    Just another green party cyber stalker.

    Unlike socialists, conservative can walk and talk at the same time.

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  103. OECD rank 22 kiwi (2,752 comments) says:

    Yeah.

    Helen Clark must really be sucking hard on those lemons these days now that all her hard work is being undone by the super popular National/ACT Government.

    What else should we chuck on that raging right wing bonfire?

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  104. Murray (8,847 comments) says:

    Socilaism and the beleif that only socialist should be allowed to decide the shap of society and what people may be permitted to thing.

    Kieth Locke can be the Guy.

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  105. expat (4,050 comments) says:

    a few union picket cards?

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  106. expat (4,050 comments) says:

    maximum security prisoners?

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  107. georgebolwing (845 comments) says:

    Here’s my tip: virtually all the people with PCNMZ/DCNZM will elect to be called Sir or Dame, including Margaret Wilson. I mean, Professor the Honourable Dame Margaret Wilson has such a ring to it.

    Slightly disappointed that they have continued the idea that the wives of men who receive a Knighthood and who have taken their husband’s name on marriage will be called “Lady X”, but the wives of knights who use their own name and the husbands of dames will not have any courtesy title.

    My preference would be for the title to be reserved only to the recipient, with all partners being treated the same, i.e. no courtesy titles.

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  108. artvanderlay00 (2 comments) says:

    Lets bring back “God Save the Queen” too.

    [DPF: No need - it is still one of our two National Anthems]

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  109. Tim Ellis (251 comments) says:

    I think the PCNZM/DCNZM titles should remain, with those who receive the honour having the right to style themselves as Sir or Dame, if they choose to do so, accordingly within the PCNZM/DCNZM honours. That would seem to be a reasonable middle-ground to me. Existing holders of the PCNZM/DCNZM titles could have, say, six months to decide whether they want to be styled as Sir or Dame, and be gazetted accordingly. New recipients could decide whether they wish to be styled as such, allowing those who receive the honour to decline the sir/dame styling if they wish, but still receive the honour itself.

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  110. Ratbiter (1,265 comments) says:

    This is good news – the titles are not meaningless, they are part of our heritage. It is all too easy for people to throw away old things just because they don’t appreciate them.

    “This means he will never be the Rt Hon John Key.”

    Blatant National cheerleading. It’s obvious from what we’ve seen of his character that Key is a down-to-earth sort of guy who probably doesn’t seek things like high titles. He doesn’t need cheerleaders or pet bloggers shaking their pom-poms to make this point.

    John! John! John’s our man! If he can’t fix it, no-one can!

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  111. barry (1,317 comments) says:

    Key has just given himself another 5% lift in the ratings.

    Best news so far this year. It restores a bit of class to the scene. Sure some of them are totally unworthy, but the socialist approach of the communists with things like “companion of the order of New zealand” was very similar to something from the old USSR – “Hero of the republic” etc.

    And as for a maori name – like Komatua – for shit sake dont frighten the horses – most komatua are useless old bums who have lost control and any respect from their young ones. Maori can keep their problems – the rest of the world sure dont need them

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  112. royalcourtier (6 comments) says:

    There is nothing backward-looking about adopting titular honours. Nor is it any form of “colonial cringe”. Most countries have titular honours. Knighthoods are the logical and traditional form in the English speaking world.

    Of course we could have the title “Bro” instead, but fortunately governments aren’t run by spotty teens or comedians.

    Oddly Phil Goff has said that New Zealand should not restore titular honours because Britain has them. And he argues that if we adopt titles we are acting contrary to steps taken in other countries such as Canada and Australia. So therefore, accordingly to Mr Goff, it is good to follow Australia and Canada, but bad to follow Britain. He has unwittingly confirmed that the motive for the abolition of titles in the first place was anti-British republican sentiment.

    If titles go against our mythical egalitarian traditions, so do all honours!

    These are New Zealand royal honours, and we can chose to use titles or not- we don’t have to follow Canada and Australia, or Britain. Opinion polls have long shown that most of us support titular honours. The Government has made the right decision.

    Appeals to the Privy Council, or appointment of judges and politicians to the Privy Council are a different matter. Though restoration of appeals now seems unlikely, there is no reason why senior cabinet ministers can’t be appointed to the Privy Council.

    And for Murray’s information, Governments can always find time to make decisions on matters like this. It doesn’t take a lot of effort. A few hours for one civil servant and all the paperwork is done. If honours are too trivial to bother spending time on them, why did Labour bother to abolish titular honours in the first place?

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