Labour supports so called UN Conference on Racism

April 21st, 2009 at 10:00 am by David Farrar

I blogged yesterday on the welcome news that New Zealand would not be attending the so called Conference on Racism. The last conference was an appalling show of hatred with really two aims – to demonise Israel and make it illegal to criticise religions such as Islam.

Now I expcted the Greens to get upset about this, but surprised that ’s Grant Robertson also condemned the decision.

Now let us look at who else has decided to not attend this vile little conference. We have:

  1. Australia
  2. Canada
  3. Germany
  4. Israel
  5. Italy
  6. Netherlands
  7. Poland
  8. Sweden
  9. United States

There may be more. But note that Obama and Kevin Rudd have both decided to stay away, and they are from sister parties to NZ Labour. Grant presumably thinks they are doing the wrong thing also.

So who will be attending? We know the Iranian President is attending. Denying the Holocaust is not racist it seems. But Libya will also be attending – in fact they are chairing the preparatory committee.

Now you would think the Chair of the preparatory committee would come from a country that excels in human rights and treatment of all citizens regardless of race, tribe or ethnicity.

But we know this about Libya:

Within Libya there is open racism and violence towards black Africans such as migrant workers. Physical attacks against them are commonplace and unpunished. Nigerians tell of Libyan parents encouraging their children to throw stones at them.

And worse:

The United Nations, the American Anti-Slavery Group, and the US State Department all agree that Libya is actively involved in trafficking black Africans in a slave trade that still prospers in Libya., Mali, Mauritania and Sudan.

But will there be one word of criticism of Libya at this conference they chair? Of course not.

Robertson claims that it is vital NZ has a voice at the table. No, not when the outcome is pre-determined (they have been negotiated texts for months) and it will bring shame to be associated with it.  By disassociating ourselves from the conference, we send out a far stronger message that we will not be associated with attempts to make it illegal to criticise certain religions.

UPDATE: It is off to a good start:

Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad accused the West of using the Holocaust as a “pretext” for aggression against Palestinians, prompting walkouts by every European Union country at a UN conference on racism.

Oh yes, we definitely should be there to hear from the Holocaust Denier in Chief – on the eve of Holocaust Memorial Day no less.

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119 Responses to “Labour supports so called UN Conference on Racism”

  1. Manolo (12,624 comments) says:

    Another talkfest attended by mendacious politicians, do-gooders and anti-semitics. 100% correct to avoid it like the plague.

    The Iranian president is mad as barking dog and should be neutered as soon as possible. Unfortunately, his rantings are supported by a number of rogue states (and now the Labour Party).

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  2. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    Denying the Holocaust is not racist it seems.

    It’s technically not racist. It’s irrational, and may be motivated by racism, but it’s not racist in itself.

    Has the UN ever tried to defend its appointment of brutally repressive racist countries to committees like this?

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  3. Paul Williams (867 comments) says:

    David, the words Robertson used are “unfortunate” and “careful”; hardly a condemnation.

    Robertson’s making the point that the “rhetoric” about Israel is overwhelming other issues. He’s also saying NZ’s independence may be in question. I know nuance isn’t well regarded here, but they’re valid and important points and miles away from a “condemnation”. Too much coffee this morning perhaps?

    [DPF: Grant could also have not said anything. If Labour were more open about some of the failings of the UN system, it would be welcome. Overall the UN does more good than bad, but some parts of it are really quite awful]

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  4. libertyscott (355 comments) says:

    Labour is just taking a cheap shot at National playing the “National wants us to be the lapdog of the US” card.
    The Greens embrace anything the UN does as moral, and encourages taking a “sceptical of Western civilisation” perspective always.

    This is nonsense of course, the Nats didn’t even overturn the irrational nuclear ship ban when they got elected in 1990. It is Labour clasping at straws. Labour preferred in the 1980s for NZ to be neutral in the Cold War rather than accept nuclear ships, that in itself was a disgraceful moral betrayal. How could anyone be neutral between the totalitarian Soviet Union and the relatively free West? Of course we know Chris Trotter misses the USSR, and Keith Locke once supported it.

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  5. He-Man (270 comments) says:

    and they are from sister parties to NZ Labour

    The Democrats are a sister party to NZ Labour? Yeah right!

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  6. Paul Williams (867 comments) says:

    Liberty, that’s a bit rough don’t you think? Robertson’s got a different view, it’s hardly inexpert or ill-informed and it’s pretty calmly stated. The issue’s got global relevance, it’s a significant event and is dividing members. Robertson’s simply noted it’s dissapointing. David’s introduction is a characature – black and white, zionest or anti-semite – and is ridiculous.

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  7. Paul Williams (867 comments) says:

    Grant could also have not said anything. If Labour were more open about some of the failings of the UN system, it would be welcome.

    Yeah, he could have. He could be the first Opposition spokesperson on Foriegn Affairs to not put out a release on a major event. The point is he made a reasonable and sensible alternative point and you mischaracterised it to score cheap shots. I think you’re guilty of the offence you falsely accuse him of.

    [DPF: Sorry Paul but I disagree. Grant's comments have been reported by media as an attack on the Govt's decision - as he intended it to be. And on this issue I think the Govt is very clearly right, and Grant is wrong.

    While just one conference, this is about a bigger more strategic issue of how do you improve the UN. Grant and Labour think that you can improve some of the more vile parts by turning up and being reasonable. I think this is naive and wrong - all you do is give them credibility.

    The history of the UN, is that the one surefire way to get some reform, is to have countries withdraw and remove their credibility from that organ. It worked for UNESCO in the 1980s. It worked for the former Human Rights Commission.

    So I think Grant and Labour's stance on the conference is quite a big issue. They have made it clear they would have attended, and it raises the question about whether they would have joined the EU on a walkout as the Holocaust denier in chief addressed the conference?]

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  8. libertyscott (355 comments) says:

    Paul: It is one thing to say one should go to the conference and discuss and confront, another to say that NOT going implies NZ foreign policy isn’t independent any more – as if NZ agreeing not to go, for similar reasons as Germany, Poland, the Netherlands, Australia, Italy and the US, is somehow surrendering control of foreign policy? THAT is what i object to. Would Robertson say if NZ went that NZ’s independent foreign policy is under threat because NZ is doing what Britain is doing by going? Of course not.

    It’s a cheap shot, and if Robertson had NOT said that then I’d respect it being worthy of debate about attending.

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  9. Paul Williams (867 comments) says:

    Liberty, Labour was and probably always will be more an advocate of multi-lateralism than National. I agree the UN’s far from perfect and I understand the misgivings many people/members have of this conference. That said, I’m trying to make sense of McCully’s redirection of Foreign Affairs and the two decisions Robertson’s noted, the withdrawal from Human Rights council and now this, are a significant change. I think Robertson’s very measured release and questioning are reasonable and hardly surprising (and still clearly not the condemnation David claimed).

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  10. Gooner (995 comments) says:

    Goff can go and hold hands with Arafat again. Who knows maybe this time he ups the stakes to kissing Ahmadinejad?

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  11. straya (55 comments) says:

    Paul,

    “Murray McCully needs to be careful that NZ continues to adopt an independent and principled approach to foreign affairs.

    “New Zealand should not simply follow the actions of other countries in declining to attend; rather it should ensure it continues to follow our own path in foreign affairs rather than simply following along behind other countries.

    What can that possibly mean, other than constitute an accusation of NZ acting as the US’s lapdog?

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  12. libertyscott (355 comments) says:

    My point being if New Zealand “followed the actions of other countries by attending” would it be the lapdog of the UK?

    It’s pathetic finger pointing by Robertson.

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  13. Auberon (816 comments) says:

    And it wasn’t just Grant Robertson who got it so wrong – the leader of the Labour Party, part man part verb himself, flew into a fit of indignant rage that New Zealand wasn’t attending this, as you quite rightly say David, vile little conference. What appalling judgement.

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  14. Komata (971 comments) says:

    Given that a certain Phil Goff was fawning all over the (thankfully, now late) Yasser Arafat and photographed holding his hand ‘in friendship and solidarity with ‘The cause”, why am I not surprised at this ‘bleat’ – and (if memory serves me correctly), wasn’t it also Labour who INVITED and actively promoted the establishment of a PLO ‘reperesentation’ in Wellington, causing Israel to withdraw its diplomatic representation to Canberra?

    And wasn’t it also Labour who actively blocked any attempts to import Israeli technology into New Zealand?

    The fact that the technology-concerned was superior and cheaper than that available locally, that licensing-agreements were available, and that it would be BENEFICIAL to the country as a whole was irrelevant: the party-mantra was:

    PLO / Palestinians /Hamas (aka active murderers who were determined to destroy all and anything ‘western’ – even New Zealand) etc = Good.

    Israel (aka democracy, western civilisation) = VERY, VERY Bad!!

    Am I surprised? no, not really – it’s just the ‘reds’ and their fellow travellers the ‘watermelons’ being normal.

    Thank goodness they’ve gone, and we at last have a Foreign Minister who stands up for us and what we believe in. A nice change after nine years!!

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  15. Paul Williams (867 comments) says:

    Komata, don’t mind the sensible conversation, it’ll soon pass.

    Liberty and straya, the points you object too are relevant and important. Discerning McCully’s motivation and agenda are precisely what the Opposition spokesperson on Foriegn Affairs should do and NZ’s independence is highly prized and regarded. I’m going to leave it at that, I sense the discussion is reverting to the usual cartoon (well set up in this instance by David’s introduction).

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  16. Neil (526 comments) says:

    Yesterday of interest we had the screechings of Rosslyn Noonan and Joris de Bres calling for NZ to stay at this idiotic conference.
    Noonan is human rights commissioner, a reminder of her appointment by UN lover/leftist Hulun Clark. When can the National government sack this left wing apologist for the tea towel people ? De Bres,wasn’t he the race relations conciliator, sucking off the government teat after years of involvement in left wing twerp organizations.
    There is no doubt a left wing bias in the United Nations and some of the leading news agencies and reporters in the world.
    Seeing the pictures of Ahdamenajab slagging off the west and the cheering of the Arabs etc it makes you fear what is going on in some of these Mickey Mouse states.
    Obama,who I feel will be one of the weakest and most disasterous presidents ever for the USA, even decided to not turn up.Well done NZ govt for seeing the light before the event.
    Just wait when the democracies on Cuba,Venezuela,Zimbabwe and the Democratic Republic of Congo start attacking the west !!!!!

    [DPF: Noonon did an admirable job in opposing the EFA in my books]

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  17. KiwiGreg (3,129 comments) says:

    I’d like to see us not attend on simple cost benefit grounds – it would cost good money to send people and deliver no benefit to NZ to go. Simple analysis without any ideology.

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  18. TimG_Oz (883 comments) says:

    Paul – but surely boycotting the festival of hate shows New Zealand as an intelligent, independent country.

    Will the Greens denounce Ahmadinejad’s speech? Will they renounce his Holocaust denial and militaristic activities? How about the “Wipe Israel off the map”? You know the answers: No. No. No.

    What is it about your beloved Greens that they are so desperate to join in the hate fest???? Why are the Greens racist??

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  19. emmess (1,333 comments) says:

    Robertson is full of shit
    When he talks about independent and principled he must realise that Labour’s policy is neither.

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  20. coolas (105 comments) says:

    Heard Benny Netanyahu on radio this morning saying his primary role as PM of Israel is to prevent another Holocaust!
    When are they going to get over it?
    Cambodia has, Rawanda has, Croatia and Kosovo have. But Jews are still playing the victim. It’s pathetic!
    Yeah the Nazi extermination of 6m European Jews was appalling and should be condemned at every opportunity but Israel is now an aggressive ruthless state and deserves the criticism it’s getting. Israel has destroyed the lives of millions of Palestinians for over 60 years. Will there never be enough revenge?

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  21. TimG_Oz (883 comments) says:

    coolas. You haven’t made many posts here … are you sure you’re not greenfly? :-O

    Wow anti-semitism is still rife throughout the world. Just look in your own backyard with the vandalism of Jewish cemetaries in NZ. But to you – it doesn’t exist!!

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  22. coolas (105 comments) says:

    Anti-semitism is indeed rife but not with me. I’m anti-Zionist ie I oppose the religious/racist state of Israel as much as I oppose all religious fundamentalist regimes which includes Islam. And I’m not Green, or Blue or Red. Have never supported any political party, ever!

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  23. Banana Llama (1,105 comments) says:

    The sooner the world heads back to barbarism the better imo.

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  24. Mr Nobody NZ (396 comments) says:

    Perhaps Israel will get over it at the same time Maoridom gets over the colonisation of NZ.

    Personally though if 6 Million of my countrymen/people had been rounded up and murdered it I think it would take a few hundred years to forget and certainly not while it still within living memory.

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  25. unaha-closp (1,033 comments) says:

    The history of the UN, is that the one surefire way to get some reform, is to have countries withdraw and remove their credibility from that organ. It worked for UNESCO in the 1980s. It worked for the former Human Rights Commission.

    The early 1990s reform of UNESCO was caused by wider world events than the boycott, communism collapsed. The HRC changed its name from Commission to Council.

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  26. paradigm (507 comments) says:

    Coolas, you talk of Israel as though it is bombing Palestine to get vengence for what the Nazis did to it. This is simply not true and makes little sense since it was Nazi Germany rather than Palestine that oversaw the extermination of 6 million Jews. Israel bombs Palestine in retaliation for Palestinians firing missiles at it – and it is by in large quite reserved in how it goes about this, given it has enough conventional firepower to easily bomb the whole of Palestine into non-existance.

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  27. Ross Miller (1,624 comments) says:

    So, ‘they’ will; meet, eat, drink and be merry and the decisions of this talkfest will influence the way things develop not a jot.

    Waste of money and our Government has done the right thing by giving it the big flick.

    Labour with its penchant for attending conferences (never mind the quality, feel the width) is upset … who cares.

    How sad, never mind, move on.

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  28. coolas (105 comments) says:

    Netanyahu’s said his primary role was to prevent another holocaust.
    I’m talking about the ongoing victim mentality of Israel.
    Revenge is about a victim’s need for retribution.
    Israel is playing out that mentality by suppressing the Paleatinians.

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  29. toad (3,654 comments) says:

    DPF said: But will there be one word of criticism of Libya at this conference they chair? Of course not.

    Because the countries that would lead that criticism (including New Zealand, much to our shame) are not going.

    And TimG-Oz asked: Will the Greens denounce Ahmadinejad’s speech? Will they renounce his Holocaust denial… The Greens will condemn anyone who gets espouses Holocaust denial.

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  30. TimG_Oz (883 comments) says:

    Israel is playing out that mentality by suppressing the Paleatinians.

    Yeah? So how many times does Israel need to go to peace talks to offer creation of a Palestinian State?

    If that was the case – we’d have peace right now! Why can’t the Palestinians or other Arab states allow themselves to have peace with Israel?

    If you went there, you’d know Israeli + Arab can live quite nicely side by side within Israel. There are Israeli Druze and Bedouin in Switzerland to demonstrate on Israel’s behalf this week.

    Finally – don’t you think Ahmadinejad’s nuclear ambitions and rhetoric point to an annhilation of Jews in Israel? A second holocaust!

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  31. TimG_Oz (883 comments) says:

    Toad stated: And TimG-Oz asked: Will the Greens denounce Ahmadinejad’s speech? Will they renounce his Holocaust denial… The Greens will condemn anyone who gets espouses Holocaust denial.

    Thanks Toad – great to hear. Can you point me to the public Green condemnation of Ahmadinejad’s overnight speech.

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  32. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    Tim,

    While Toad’s finding that link, could you link us to the public National condemnation of Ahmadinejad’s overnight speech?

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  33. oob (194 comments) says:

    TimG_OZ wrote: Just look in your own backyard with the vandalism of Jewish cemetaries in NZ.

    Oh yes, the time honoured tactic.

    It was of course, Jews who vandalised the Jewish cemetery in Wellington. This was to enable distracting international cries of “New Zealand anti-Semitism!” when the trial of the two Mossad agents caught stealing NZ passports got underway.

    That the Jewish people use their dead for propaganda in this manner is really quite disturbing.

    [DPF: No disturbing is your smears with no proof. 35 demerits]

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  34. TimG_Oz (883 comments) says:

    No worries Ryan – thankfully National heard that a holocaust denier was going to be opening a supposed “anti-racism” event, and decided to withdraw knowing the absolute fallacy of attendance. Kevin Rudd did the same. However the Greens wanted to attend – and maybe would have been cheering at the end!

    Hey did I mention already (several times) I’m going to a luncheon with Kevin Rudd on Friday?? If you want I can post Kevin’s condemnation over the weekend….

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  35. Mr Nobody NZ (396 comments) says:

    Do you have one shred of proof about that OOB or are you just voicing your own anti semitism ?

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  36. TimG_Oz (883 comments) says:

    Hi DPF — Just pointing to oob’s post at 12:40. Surely such an inflammatory post is worth a comment or demerits. Thanks

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  37. toad (3,654 comments) says:

    Well said Ryan. Tim, the Greens put out at most 3 or 4 media releases a day so they have to be prioritised. Any more won’t get covered, so they have to be prioritised. Keith Locke obviously made the call that NZ’s non-attendance at the conference warranted a media release (because it was about New Zealand’s foreign policy, but Ahmadinejad’s speech didn’t.

    If you want to hear it from Keith Locke himself, email him and ask. Guess what, you can even post the reply here, although it will be the same as mine – condemning holocaust deniers, as he did here.

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  38. oob (194 comments) says:

    Do you have one shred of proof about that OOB?

    Nope, pure supposition -but the timing was simply too perfect.

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  39. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    It was of course, Jews who vandalised the Jewish cemetery in Wellington. This was to enable distracting international cries of “New Zealand anti-Semitism!” when the trial of the two Mossad agents caught stealing NZ passports got underway.

    That the Jewish people use their dead for propaganda in this manner is really quite disturbing.

    Mossad vandalised the cemetery?

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  40. TimG_Oz (883 comments) says:

    Toad – do you realise you just posted a link stating that the Greens support the Right for individuals to incite hatred?

    Ryan – are you serious or tounge in cheek??????

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  41. oob (194 comments) says:

    Ryan Sproull wrote: Mossad vandalised the cemetery?

    There’s at least as much evidence to support that as there is to suppose it was performed by some mythical Kiwi ultra-Rightists.

    Consider these two headlines;

    “In international news, two suspected Mossad agents have been arrested in New Zealand for attempting to steal New Zealand passports. The New Zealand government alleges that these passports would be used by the Israeli secret services for espionage.”

    “In international news, two Israeli businessmen have been arrested in New Zealand for an immigration violation. Separately, a Jewish cemetery was vandalised in the Capital Wellington overnight.”

    Which headline would you prefer if you were fighting a propaganda war?

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  42. gd (2,286 comments) says:

    We are wasting our time trying to deal rationally with the anti Jews brigade. As far as they are concerned either Holocaust never happened or at worst it was a minor matter blown out of all proportion and used by Israel and others to justify the unjustfyable.

    meanwhile as others have posted Iran and others commit the more horrendous breaches of Human Rights and Ros Noonan and Jois deBres both turn a blind eye as it doent fit their agenda.

    Mind you as one who Joris de Bres was required to apologise to in writing over his racist remarks regarding my grandfather a few years ago the Nz Human Rights Commission isd a cesspit of 2 faced arseholes.

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  43. sonic (2,818 comments) says:

    I hate and despise antisemitism, but I also feel sick when people throw around accusations of it to defend the indefensible policies of the Israeli state.

    For 40 years Israel has occupied and brutalized 4 million people, while the world has stood by and done nothing. That’s the issue we should be discussing,.

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  44. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    Ryan – are you serious or tounge in cheek??????

    Completely.

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  45. sonic (2,818 comments) says:

    http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1079368.html

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  46. dad4justice (7,406 comments) says:

    “For 40 years Israel has occupied and brutalized 4 million people, while the world has stood by and done nothing. ”

    Your hatred runs deep sonic. Any rockets in your neighbourhood? Don’t answer that.

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  47. sonic (2,818 comments) says:

    As it’s you that’s asking I have no intention of.

    This is a serious subject Dad4J, any chance you could leave the sane people to talk about it?

    xxx

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  48. dad4justice (7,406 comments) says:

    sonic’s sanity = SOCIALISM.

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  49. Murray (8,835 comments) says:

    Clark put multiple deployments into Iraq and Afghanistan, does that make her an American lap dog?

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  50. Murray (8,835 comments) says:

    You’re a really sick wack job oob.

    A good reminder to decent people everywhere that nazis are amongt us still.

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  51. Patrick Starr (3,675 comments) says:

    ” while the world has stood by and done nothing. That’s the issue we should be discussing,”

    maybe ‘discussing’ is just ‘doing nothing’ by another name.

    “Brutalisied”? Fuck – they didn’t look very brutalised in this celebration of innocent deaths

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  52. sonic (2,818 comments) says:

    Murray is an excellent example of what I’m talking about. If you raise real concerns about the Palestinians and quote an article written by a leading reporter on an Israeli newspaper he feels justified in calling you a “Nazi” This does not help anyone try and make sense of this issue.

    I am unsure what an “oob” is though.

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  53. sonic (2,818 comments) says:

    I see Patrick, so they way some Palestinian people reacted in 2001 justifies their being occupied since 1967?

    What colour is your TARDIS btw?

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  54. unaha-closp (1,033 comments) says:

    For 40 years Israel has occupied and brutalized 4 million people, while the world has stood by and done nothing. That’s the issue we should be discussing,.

    Sonic is rather unobservant as usual.

    “Done nothing”?

    Several hundred UN condemnations. A refugee agency commited to helping the victims, the victims children, the victims grandchildren, the victims great grand…. Assistance to the Palestinain state in the form of aid and mentoring. Civil works donated, hospital staff supplied, monitors assessing their every need, a veritable industry of “human rights” victimologists dedicated to the task. International conferences.

    “Brutalised”?

    In the same period as the Palestinians have been “brutalised” by the Israeli state, the Arab regime in Khartoum has carried out ethnic cleansing campaigns resulting in over 400x as many deaths. The sanctioned rape of civillians is common place. A burnt earth policy was adopted and millions have been driven into exile. Slavery of the victims is condoned by the regime. The same regime has sponsored the Ugandan LRA which commonly recruits child soldiers by night time abduction.

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  55. sonic (2,818 comments) says:

    So the refugees get assistance unaha, how is that ending the occupation.

    AS for Sudan, all horrible stuff I agree, but how does that excuse Israel? Would it be a defence to a charge of assault if I pointed out that some other person had murdered lots of people?

    BTW have you got casualty figures that prove that 400x figure, I’d be interested to see them.

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  56. Spoff (275 comments) says:

    Ahmadinejad explains his position on the Holocaust:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykd-syzZ4ZY

    Shulamit Aloni, the former Education Minister of Israel explains why there is a case to answer:

    “Jewish self-righteousness is taken for granted among ourselves to such an extent that we fail to see what’s right in front of our eyes. It’s simply inconceivable that the ultimate victims, the Jews, can carry out evil deeds. Nevertheless, the state of Israel practises its own, quite violent, form of Apartheid with the native Palestinian population.”

    http://www.counterpunch.org/aloni01082007.html

    The Herald explains why this whole brouhaha is an hysterical response to a storm in a teacup:

    “Israel’s Foreign Ministry yesterday thanked the boycotters and predicted the conference would “once again serve as a platform to denigrate Israel and single it out for criticism”.

    Still, after years of preparations there appears little evidence to validate these fears.

    The statement of 2001 that is so contentious now was cheered in Israel at the time, as it recognised the Jewish state’s right to security.”

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10567533&pnum=3

    It is interesting to note that the U.N. General Assembly passed Resolution 3379 on November 10, 1975 determining that Zionism is a form of racism and racial discrimination. The resolution was revoked by Resolution 46/86 on December 16, 1991. George H. W. Bush stated:
    “to equate Zionism with the intolerable sin of racism is to twist history and forget the terrible plight of Jews in World War II and, indeed, throughout history. To equate Zionism with racism is to reject Israel itself, a member of good standing of the United Nations.”

    I have a problem with the logic of this. Is he saying that because Jews suffered, they cannot practice racism? By protesting South African racism were we rejecting South Africa itself? Israel is hardly a “member of good standing of the United Nations”, being in violation of over 60 resolutions.

    Somehow Ahmadinejad’s logic is more appealing. He simply states that the Holocaust was a European event in which the Palestinian people took no part. Why then, he asks, are they made to give up their homes and land with no compensation – to pay for a European crime.

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  57. TimG_Oz (883 comments) says:

    Sonic – Murray was referring to a poster called “oob” as a Nazi (not you). As you can see from his posts on this thread and elsewhere, it is actually probably quite justified.

    DPF has now taken a justified stand (via demerits) which reflects the offensiveness of oob’s post.

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  58. unaha-closp (1,033 comments) says:

    So the refugees get assistance unaha, how is that ending the occupation.

    It is what the UN does, talk and provide humanitarian assistance, doesn’t work, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t doing anything.

    AS for Sudan, all horrible stuff I agree, but how does that excuse Israel? Would it be a defence to a charge of assault if I pointed out that some other person had murdered lots of people?

    It would excuse from going to a conference on “murder” if the only topic scheduled to be discussed was “assault”.

    Figures wikipedia: 1st civil war – 500,000; 2nd civil war – 1,900,000; Darfur – 450,000.

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  59. dad4justice (7,406 comments) says:

    Tim, unfortunately sonic doesn’t seem to be as sharp as it has been in the PAST. Must have something to do with Aunty Helen flying away and leaving the country in a mess?

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  60. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    What exactly makes Oob a “Nazi”?

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  61. coolas (105 comments) says:

    Thanks Spoff for this:

    Shulamit Aloni, the former Education Minister of Israel explains why there is a case to answer:
    “Jewish self-righteousness is taken for granted among ourselves to such an extent that we fail to see what’s right in front of our eyes. It’s simply inconceivable that the ultimate victims, the Jews, can carry out evil deeds. Nevertheless, the state of Israel practises its own, quite violent, form of Apartheid with the native Palestinian population.”

    Not from radical Islam but an Israeli cabinet minister with the humility to recognise that Zionism is obsessed by the ‘ultimate victim’ status confered by the Holocaust.

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  62. TimG_Oz (883 comments) says:

    Ah Ryan – so you feel it’s OK to villify the entire Jewish Community of New Zealand with disgusting smears, without evidence, other than a confessed hatred of a Jewish State.

    You obviously don’t feel as disturbed as myself, DPF, Murray or others then?

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  63. Patrick Starr (3,675 comments) says:

    “I see Patrick, so they way some Palestinian people reacted in 2001 justifies their being occupied since 1967? What colour is your TARDIS btw?”

    Well did you mean 40 years ago – or did you mean what you said ????

    “For 40 years Israel has occupied and brutalized 4 million people”

    The only ‘colour’ is the one you are applying to your shifting sand story – Sonic

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  64. oob (194 comments) says:

    Ryan Sproull wrote: What exactly makes Oob a “Nazi”?

    Anti-Zionism.

    The efforts of the Zionists to conflate anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism are working altogether too well. You’ll note that Timg_Ozs allegation above, that a cemetery was vandalised by Kiwi anti-Semites, passes muster without a blink, while my allegation that it was members of the Jewish community for propaganda purposes, causes widespread condemnation.

    This is pretty much par for the course in any discussion concerning Palestine.

    Back to my original point. When have you ever heard of Kiwis vandalising graves to make a political statement? Over the last 30 years of fairly tumultuous race relations not once have graves been vandalised, yet there are plenty of Maori burial grounds about. It simply isn’t done in this country.

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  65. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    Ah Ryan – so you feel it’s OK to villify the entire Jewish Community of New Zealand with disgusting smears, without evidence, other than a confessed hatred of a Jewish State.

    You obviously don’t feel as disturbed as myself, DPF, Murray or others then?

    Oh, I’m not easily disturbed.

    Oob didn’t villify the entire Jewish community of New Zealand. He suggested that Mossad – agents of the Israeli state, not embodiments of every Jewish New Zealander – set up the desecration as a PR ploy after they got caught stealing New Zealand passports. He made the assumption that these Mossad agents would be Jewish.

    I agree that he hasn’t provided evidence, besides “awfully good timing, though, wasn’t it?” Though I’m not sure what the evidence was that it was carried out by ultra-right racists like the National Front or whatever.

    But failing to provide evidence for an assertion is hardly criteria for Nazi-dom.

    For that matter, even actually being racist is not a sufficient criterion for being a Nazi, not that I’ve read anything Oob’s said so far that inclines me to believe he’s racist.

    Just a silly word to go throwing around.

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  66. oob (194 comments) says:

    TimG_Oz wrote: Ah Ryan – so you feel it’s OK to villify the entire Jewish Community of New Zealand with disgusting smears

    Check out the double standard;

    TimG_Oz wrote: Wow anti-semitism is still rife throughout the world. Just look in your own backyard with the vandalism of Jewish cemetaries in NZ.

    Apparently it’s alright to vilify Kiwis.

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  67. TimG_Oz (883 comments) says:

    Ryan said

    “He suggested that Mossad ”

    oob said

    “the Jewish people use their dead for propaganda”

    Uh oh … seems like there’s some disagreement in the household….

    Did you guys forget that dickhead from Upper Hutt running around doing nasty things to Jews a few years back?? Remember the link to the current National Front leader – jailed for a firebomb attack on the Synagogue?

    Oh no …. they weren’t racist .. just Anti Zionist, right?

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  68. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    Ryan said

    “He suggested that Mossad ”

    oob said

    “the Jewish people use their dead for propaganda”

    Like I said, he assumed the Mossad agents were Jewish. I asked for clarification after he posted that. I asked if he meant Mossad, and he said he did, and that it made sense.

    Oob, do you mean Mossad or Jewish Kiwis? I took it that you meant that Jewish New Zealanders were victims of Mossad, rather than perpetrators of desecration themselves.

    And Tim, yes, there are racist nutters in New Zealand – I don’t think anyone’s disputing that. Who said there was no racism in New Zealand?

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  69. oob (194 comments) says:

    Ryan Sproull wrote: Oob, do you mean Mossad or Jewish Kiwis?

    The Mossad of course. It’s highly unlikely that Jewish New Zealanders would be inclined to vandalise the graves of their relatives.

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  70. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    Ryan Sproull wrote: Oob, do you mean Mossad or Jewish Kiwis?

    The Mossad of course. It’s highly unlikely that Jewish New Zealanders would be inclined to vandalise the graves of their relatives.

    That’s what I figured. Well, I’m glad that’s cleared up.

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  71. TimG_Oz (883 comments) says:

    Who is villifying Kiwi’s? I am a Kiwi (living in Oz)…..

    Actually there were four attacks on Jewish cemetaries, over several months during that year. Some in places like Wanganui! The Major attack at Makara was the culmination, and got widespread attention.

    There were a number of anonymous mailings to Jewish people around the time – those whose family members whose graves were identified for “special treatment” during the attack.

    This included such disgusting things as sending photos of the graves draped in Nazi flags. My friend was one of those and he has no doubt that the same dickheads from Upper Hutt was responsible … and there is a lot of evidence that hasn’t been released that shows that.

    oob’s post made no suggestion to the Mossad. But hey if you want to change your position now, fine. I’m sure things like evidence won’t sway you… And it’s a bit hard to go back and edit your original post….

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  72. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    oob’s post made no suggestion to the Mossad. But hey if you want to change your position now, fine. I’m sure things like evidence won’t sway you… And it’s a bit hard to go back and edit your original post….

    Read under his original post. You are right, he made no suggestion of Mossad. I immediately asked if he meant Mossad, and he said that he did.

    Personally, I think that local racism is a more likely explanation than Oob’s suggestion. My point remains that Murray had no good reason to call Oob a “Nazi”, and neither do you, if that is your inclination.

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  73. TimG_Oz (883 comments) says:

    Ah OK – I thought that the Mossad was your suggestion – hence why I asked if you were serious. The language is still very inflammatory, and it got what it deserved.

    I guess we ultimately don’t know what the entity “oob” is IRL. His language is VERY similar to the language of the NZ National Front.

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  74. Danyl Mclauchlan (1,049 comments) says:

    The desecration of the graves also took place in a general atmosphere of increased Nazi activity – demonstrations, racial attacks, web sites in which they were ‘profiling’ jews (like DPF!) and publishing photos of their houses and businesses on the web.

    Blaming Mossad is a happy reminder of my time living and traveling in the Middle East where every time a watermain bursts or someone loses their keys ‘Mossad’ are instantly blamed – which is comic when you consider how incompetent and ineffectual they’ve been for the past 20-30 years.

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  75. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    Ah OK – I thought that the Mossad was your suggestion – hence why I asked if you were serious.

    I certainly admit the possibility. Mossad were caught in a very embarrassing international incident, made all the more serious because they had previously murdered someone using a stolen Canadian passport. An organisation that is capable of murder is easily capable of faking racist desecration and letters in order to divert attention. I would just require more positive evidence beyond the handiness of the timing in order to believe the theory.

    I guess we ultimately don’t know what the entity “oob” is IRL. His language is VERY similar to the language of the NZ National Front.

    I am quite certain he is not a member of the National Front. My experience of him is as an intelligent fairly recent graduate who routinely disagrees with me, but can back up his disagreement with some argument. I don’t find his language similar to the language of the National Front. He suggested a perfectly plausible theory, immediately admitted he had no particular evidence for it, and was consequently called a Nazi. He may well be racist, but he hasn’t displayed any reason to think so that I’ve seen.

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  76. oob (194 comments) says:

    Ryan Sproull wrote: I am quite certain he is not a member of the National Front.

    I’m pretty certain of that too. I’ve never even considered copulating with one of my cousins.

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  77. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    I’m pretty certain of that too. I’ve never even considered copulating with one of my cousins.

    Me neither.

    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .

    Your cousins are ugly.

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  78. TimG_Oz (883 comments) says:

    Ryan – we’ll have to agree to disagree there. oob has referenced “Jews” before, and he has made a lot of violent references towards the left and built up some demerits now to show for it.

    But This thread has been hijacked enough after the first inflammatory post.

    If you agree that there is an anti-semitic extremist element in NZ (and in fact, most countries), then it is essentially exercising the point (which I originally made BEFORE oob) that anti-semitism still exists today, regardless of Israel, or the holocaust or anything else.

    Given the original thread is about a racism conference … it kinda proves the point. Now we can debate over Israel for a while, and Ahmadinejad (what the topic is about!) but I have some work to do, and there are others here that have made some excellent points that have probably been buried somewhat….

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  79. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    I do agree that there are racist extremists in New Zealand. Racism against Jewish people does still exist today, as does racism against almost every other ethnicity. It is very sad, and reeks of stupidity. But any ideological position that puts the interests of one human being before another by virtue of their ethnicity is racist, as far as I’m concerned. Anti-Semitism is racist. White supremacy is racist. Zionism is racist. Any value position that is not blind to ethnicity is racist (culture is a separate question).

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  80. MyNameIsJack (2,415 comments) says:

    Ethnicity is not race, is it is much more about a culture.

    White supremacy is not necessarilly racist. Why is it wrong to believe that your race is the best when it is right to believe the same about a football team?

    Zionism is not racism. It is probably closer to nationalism.

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  81. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    Why is it wrong to believe that your race is the best when it is right to believe the same about a football team?

    Because “best football team” actually means “best team at football”.

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  82. georgedarroch (303 comments) says:

    The desecration of the graves also took place in a general atmosphere of increased Nazi activity – demonstrations, racial attacks, web sites in which they were ‘profiling’ jews (like DPF!) and publishing photos of their houses and businesses on the web.

    Danyl’s completely right. Just a couple of weeks earlier I was woken up at 1am to come over after a friend’s place had windows smashed and National Front grafitti. Not long later a different Jewish friend had a National Front member try to kill him, and Somalis in Wellington were getting assaulted by NF members. Thankfully the morons have been embarrassed enough times that their egos were burst and they’ve largely given up in Wellington.

    We, and the police, had a fair idea who did it, but the police obviously didn’t have enough to lay charges. To say that it was Mossad is pretty stupid. Although I dislike them thoroughly after they tried to get a passport in the name of an extended family member.

    Oob’s statements are classic poisoning the well tactics, designed to stir up hatred over things that have not happened.

    Racism in any of it’s forms is despicable.

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  83. MyNameIsJack (2,415 comments) says:

    Because “best football team” actually means “best team at football”.

    Well, you seem to have misread me.

    I said why is it wrong to believe that your race is the best when it is right to believe the same about a football team? Note the use of ther word believe.

    I support a football team with passion, and yet their last premiership was won in 1954. Doesn’t stopp me believing in them. Same with my race – I believe that the white europeans have been the biggest catalyst to human advancement for the past 500 years, making, in my opinion, white people supreme to all others. And that is not being a racist, it is being a realist. Prove me wrong if you can.

    [DPF: It is racist for you mix up culture and race. I certainly agree that European culture and especially the liberal European tradition of limited Govt, seperate state and religion etc etc is "superior" to other cultures. But I also think no culture is perfect and there are benefits from a merging of cultures - so long as key cultural elements such as equal rights for women, separation of religion, democrarcy, free speech remain. But again nothing to do with race, Many people with brown, black and yellow skin in Europe support this also]

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  84. georgedarroch (303 comments) says:

    Yeah, and there were the attacks on the synagogue. It was a pretty traumatic time for those friends of mine who publicly identified as Jewish anti-Nazis.

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  85. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    I support a football team with passion, and yet their last premiership was won in 1954. Doesn’t stopp me believing in them. Same with my race – I believe that the white europeans have been the biggest catalyst to human advancement for the past 500 years, making, in my opinion, white people supreme to all others. And that is not being a racist, it is being a realist. Prove me wrong if you can.

    So when you believe your football team is the best, despite them consistently losing, what are you saying about them? What does “best” mean in that context?

    And when you say that white people are supreme to all other people, what do you mean by “supreme”? Does this supremity come with any entitlements for people born with white skin and Caucasian features?

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  86. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    Supremity?

    Supremacy.

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  87. AG (1,727 comments) says:

    MNIJ,

    “in my opinion, white people supreme to all others. And that is not being a racist, it is being a realist. Prove me wrong if you can.”

    Try visiting Dachau on a wintery afternoon. That’s the realism behind “white people supreme to all others”.

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  88. James (1,338 comments) says:

    “Try visiting Dachau on a wintery afternoon. That’s the realism behind “white people supreme to all others”.

    Although it was white people in the main who were murdered at Dachau…..and the other camps….fussy them Ayrans….

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  89. reid (15,531 comments) says:

    This whole question revolves does it not on whether Israel treats the Palestinians with respect, as the indigenous people of the land which it currently occupies.

    Some people seem to think that the Palestinians never even occupied the land, or if they did, they weren’t the originals. Personally, I leave that to the scholars and prefer the generally accepted reference point which is that the Palestinians were well established in the land of Israel when the Israelis came under UN mandate in 1946 and I also observe that some Jews who never left during the diaspora, apparently were treated fairly, up till then.

    Who then is right? Is it really the case that the current actions and policies of the state of Israel (as distinct from the Jewish people), are conducive to peace?

    If no, then why is the Iranian President excoriated for pointing that out? If yes, then why isn’t there peace?

    There seems to be a sentiment amongst Westerners helpfully promoted by most of the Western Media both left and right oriented, that almost all Arabs would like nothing better than to simply wipe the State of Israel “off the face of the map.” I wonder how many Westerners have actually investigated that claim and whether they really think that their fellow human beings who live in the ME, for that is who they are, are simply all “terrorists” bent on destruction of our civilisation.

    Reading this thread gives me little hope, for discernment and wisdom.

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  90. Inky_the_Red (718 comments) says:

    Reid

    Well put that man

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  91. Southern Raider (1,367 comments) says:

    Reid once again spouts his normal anti-Israel diatribe. He’s never been there think all Arabs are locked in cages and that we should give Iran a chance.

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  92. Southern Raider (1,367 comments) says:

    Funny how the third most holiest site in Islam just happens to be built on top of the most holiest Jewish site.

    Seems hard to believe that the “indigenous” people as Reid claims could be seen as “indigenous” yet built something after the event?

    Amazing stuff that time travel. I knew the Jews were behind Intel etc, but the TARDIS?

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  93. reid (15,531 comments) says:

    So without descending into history SR, do you think the current actions (say, last ten years) of the govt of the State of Israel (as distinct from the Jewish people) are conducive toward peace?

    If so, why? If not, why?

    (Please don’t crap on about justification, it’s not at all relevant, there’s no justification for violence, ever, on any side, under any circumstance.)

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  94. TimG_Oz (883 comments) says:

    So the last 10 years would include Camp David 2000, which Ehud Barak offered essentially everything for a two state solution, only to be rebuffed by Arafat, who then started a campaign of violence, eventually ceding to Hamas and Hezbollah who won’t accept peace with Israel under any circumstances leaving us in the mess of the situation we’re in now?

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  95. reid (15,531 comments) says:

    Perhaps you should read George Tenet’s account of that Camp David meeting, Tim, for a more accurate account of who rebuffed whom. Or perhaps the former Head of the CIA was just plain lying, in his biography.

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  96. TimG_Oz (883 comments) says:

    Is that the sole account you’ll listen to?? One that supports the beliefs you already hold?

    From Israel’s negotiator, it appears to differ….

    “George Tenet (CIA Director) tried to persuade Arafat to accept Clinton’s proposals. In Clinton’s presence I told Saib Ereqat: ‘You are barely 4 million Muslim Palestinians and pretend to represent one billion Muslims regarding the Temple Mount. Clinton’s proposals are historic and you are about to miss another opportunity’. I added that Arafat placed the Muslim agenda before the national Palestinian agenda. ‘Your national agenda is held hostage in the hands of the Muslim agenda and you will pay a heavy price for this…”

    If Bill Clinton blames Arafat for it failing, that’s gotta hold some weight…

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  97. reid (15,531 comments) says:

    Regardless of that Tim, most of your posts (every single one that I’ve personally read actually) indicate you’re a cheerleader for Israel, right or wrong.

    Tell me, do you really think that Israel never does anything wrong? That it always acts merely defensively. That it never commits acts of aggression?

    Everyone with a 3-digit IQ understands Israel’s security situation. It’s just that some of us with such IQs think Israel brings it upon herself by her own actions. Not fully but at least partially. When we say that, people like you immediately leap into the fray and pretend that Israel is snow-white and her enemies are as black as coal.

    Surely you don’t REALLY believe that, do you?

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  98. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    Same old same old.

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  99. reid (15,531 comments) says:

    Funny how the above comment took so long to refresh, almost 30 mins.

    I cited Tenet because of the fact he was at the centre of negotiations between Clinton, Israel and Arafat at Camp David and that he mentioned that BOTH sides used tactics at different times to scuttle the negotiations.

    Surely you don’t just cite the source that “supports the beliefs you already hold?”

    “Is that the sole account you’ll listen to??”

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  100. TimG_Oz (883 comments) says:

    Reid … let’s just have a look at the question you put to me …

    “Tell me, do you really think that Israel never does anything wrong?”

    You are lumping the entire country into one term. I think it’s important that you highlight who you are referring to “The Israeli Government”. Of which, there have been several in the last 10 years, each with many failings (including a highly flawed system of government).

    However, you must agree that many who criticize “Israel” are actually enemies of everything Israel – it’s existance.

    The only thing you must realise that if people tell BS, I am going to do my best to provide evidence to correct or dispute them. And, unfortunately, there is a rather large amount of BS coming from some people on this blog…..

    One thing to point out .. even though I was in Israel for a period of time, I no way profess to being an expert. But I do have a number of resources to me that many people don’t have. Still, if I, as a non-expert are able to dispell myths and BS, then imagine what an expert would be able to provide…..

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  101. Spoff (275 comments) says:

    Funny how the third most holiest site in Islam just happens to be built on top of the most holiest Jewish site.

    Seems hard to believe that the “indigenous” people as Reid claims could be seen as “indigenous” yet built something after the event?

    Amazing stuff that time travel. I knew the Jews were behind Intel etc, but the TARDIS?

    Had you considered that the original inhabitants might have converted to Islam? This is the thesis most popular among Israeli historians.

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  102. reid (15,531 comments) says:

    I think it’s important that you highlight who you are referring to “The Israeli Government”

    Try not to be too disingenuous Tim.

    How about the govt that committed the IDF to Gaza this last Christmas? The govt that decided to restrict the imports into Gaza leading up to that. That govt.

    …you must agree that many who criticize “Israel” are actually enemies of everything Israel – it’s existance.

    I agree that many who do are enemies Tim, but that doesn’t mean everyone who does is an enemy.

    For example, in my reading, Sharon in his last act stood up for the people of Israel against those who wish to destroy them. The person that took over from him actually obeyed those people, went to war in Lebanon, lost, destroyed the invincible reputation of the IDF and thereby severely weakened the security of the State of Israel. The same thing happened in Gaza at Christmas, just in a slightly different way.

    So you see Tim, I’m actually an Israeli patriot, just not one that you’d be familiar with, I’m sure. You seem to imagine that patriotism for Israel equates to supporting them no matter what regardless of whether their actions are good for the Jewish people. I personally don’t look at that as patriotism, I look at it as foolishness.

    If you choose to imagine that I’m seeing things that don’t exist then that’s fine, you don’t know what I know, and vice versa. All I ask is that in future, when I do make a criticism of the actions of the Israeli govt, that you consider it in light of the wider long term interests of the Jewish people. Sometimes I may be wrong but in Lebanon and in Gaza, I think I was right, both times.

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  103. Jim (385 comments) says:

    reid,

    You have some points, but let’s add some perspective. Jewish people are clearly a minority worldwide. Muslims outnumber them between 50:1 and 100:1 depending on which figures you follow.

    I know that I’m talking of religion here, not race. Equally, you raise the nationality: “Israel”, not any race.

    But let’s assume that these distinctions are somewhat blurred in the context of this UN conference of racists. Ahmadinejad seems to follow that reasoning (it’s about religion, not race).

    So, getting back to your points, isn’t it generally accepted (ie: politically correct) that when a tiny minority projects some force that they should be sympathised with? That that force is somehow justified? Seems to be a general lefty principle to defend the criminal and not the victim – so why not defend Israel if you think they are criminal?

    Disclosure: I’d prefer not to take sides and I find myself closer to Muslim friends than Jewish ones. In fact, I don’t have any Jewish friends.

    I’m not a fan of Iran or Israel and my gut feeling is that the govt was correct in side-stepping this debacle. This is one of the many areas in which the UN is a joke.

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  104. RainbowGlobalWarming (295 comments) says:

    Oh jiminy cricket, we get onto a Jew-Arab thread yet again, how tedious.

    Rugby chit chat anyone?

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  105. OECD rank 22 kiwi (2,786 comments) says:

    The correct answer is…

    Parliament would be better off with Stephen Franks in it.

    Grant Robertson future leadership material? ha ha.

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  106. Spoff (275 comments) says:

    Transcript of the 2001 Durban Declaration, the result of what McCully considered “rancorous and unproductive debate that took place in 2001″

    http://www.un.org./WCAR/durban.pdf

    Transcript of Ahmadinejad’s scary speech, 2009:

    http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-files/Guardian/documents/2009/04/21/speech.pdf

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  107. noha (1 comment) says:

    5 years ago I would have condemned what the Iranian president has said but the fact of the matter is Palestinians who are the indigenous people of “Palestine” use to have a civilisation, lives and believes but now all that is on their minds is survival, just like animals. Whether you like it or not this is hugely because of the Zionist movement. I am disgusted by what is happening to the Palestinians just like I am disgusted with what has happened to the Red Indians of American, the aborigine’s of Australia and the Maori of NZ but unlike these other indigenous groups, the western world refuses to recognise what is currently happing to the Palestinians for the simple reason that they are sympathetic towards what happened to the Jews in World war 2 which no one is arguing was a horrible thing to happen but is still no excuse for the western world to look the other way in regards the Palestinian issue. While the Iranian president’s views may have been a bit negative and one sided, he is the only leader that was bald enough to bring this issue to the international arena and what does the western world do, they walk out, surprise surprise.

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  108. valeriusterminus (242 comments) says:

    I’ve viewed and listened to the 38 minutes of Mr Ahmadinejad represented by the 4 youtube postings derived from un.org/webcasting
    Did not hear the word “holocaust” once – despite what guardian.co.uk asserts.
    I did hear a considered and intellectual appeal to reason on the causes and manifestations of Racism. It is so sad that our Mandarins of foreign policy (Jorges excluded) arrogantly absconded their representation. “The Racists were not there”
    I question just which of the 143 statements in the subsequent declaration were not acceptable to Murray. (Hey Murray, what is it with these “blacked out yellow lines” in Beachfront Lane. – Did the Smarts get it wrong??

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  109. libertyscott (355 comments) says:

    Did the NZ media report on the Palestinian man who the Libyan Chair of this farcical conference tried to shut down, because he gave testimony about being imprisoned by Libya along with the Bulgarian nurses, accused of giving Libya children HIV – because Libya wanted to “send a message to foreigners”?

    The farcical conference also included attempts by Cuba to remove references to freedom of speech, and by the OIC to call for the end of defamation of religion.

    The Islamic states are no more interested in racism than they are in human rights – they are using it as a platform for one issue. I don’t mind that the issue of the Palestinians is raised, but in not talking about others it is a hypocritical hijacking of the conference for a goal beyond racism.

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  110. valeriusterminus (242 comments) says:

    For the real transcipt go here;
    http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=92046
    Otherwise the un-attributed guardian pdf complete with “notes in the margin” may be viewed as a templar of “shonky journalism” here;
    http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-files/Guardian/documents/2009/04/21/speech.pdf
    Otherwise listen to the real words here;

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  111. valeriusterminus (242 comments) says:

    So libertyscott
    Lets identify the issues, and then address them as we can. To deny all issues because some are not addressed is a penny wise – pound foolish strategy.

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  112. libertyscott (355 comments) says:

    Ahmadinejad said “I also want to lay emphasis on the fact that Western liberalism and capitalism has reached its end since it has failed to perceive the truth of the world and humans as they are.

    It has imposed its own goals and directions on human beings. There is no regard for human and divine values, justice, freedom, love and brotherhood and it has based living on intense competition, securing individual and cooperative material interest.”

    I guess that justifies Iran’s oppression of people who convert from Islam to other religions or atheism, oppression of anyone advancing other religions or atheism, Iran’s execution of a teenage girl who had sex with a man whilst unmarried, Iran’s imprisonment and execution of homosexuals, Iran’s sponsorship and celebration of suicide bombing in Iraq and Israel

    “considered and intellectual appeal”? Sure, you go to Iran and see how much reason you can embark on in public discourse, in print or in broadcast.

    Ahmadinejad declared his opposition to liberal secular society – how can that be taken as a “considered and intellectual” appeal? How can one appease such a challenge to Western civilisation?

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  113. valeriusterminus (242 comments) says:

    Did libertyscott listen to the entire Ahmadinejad address? There were no expansionist claims, no assertations of righteousness other than those that derived from the humanity that exists as a consequence of a benevolent creator. (common ground with christianity and Islam) The government of Iran has no expressed wish to assert any doctrine inconsistent with christianity on the rest of the world – just a simple desire to wish an end to the Zionist regime that prevails in Palestine. This is not a claim to “wipe Israel from the map” rather an appeal to the principles of GA181 from which Israel derives its right to exist.

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  114. RainbowGlobalWarming (295 comments) says:

    And therein lies the problem Valerie.

    “no assertations of righteousness other than those that derived from the humanity that exists as a consequence of a benevolent creator”

    Ahmadinejad was proclaiming his religions greater righteousness by making these statements and this is wrong on a number of levels not least the fact that religion is a tool for subjugating the peasants, an excuse for persecuting those who differ from you and a vehicle for warmongering.

    But I guess that sort of thing is only perpetuated by the anglo-judaeo hegomony.

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  115. libertyscott (355 comments) says:

    Valeriusterminus: I read it all. Iran has long used its proxies to wage war against Israel (Hamas, Hizbollah), more recently in Iraq and previously in the UK, with its backing of the IRA with funds and arms. It has long promoted Islamism globally, through entities that use terrorism. Hamas after all promotes to Palestinian children the glory of being a martyr – which is so utterly repulsive beyond words, against many UN resolutions damning children as soldiers (which Iran did use in the war against Iraq too).

    The government of Iran opposes secular liberal democracy, Ahmadinejad has made it clear time and time again. Iran’s government has a view of humanity that includes executing teenage girls because they had sex. Iran is in fundamental opposition to liberal secular Western civilisation – it’s theocracy makes it just worse as it opposes apostasy by its own citizens.

    I don’t care what is in common between Iran and christianity, I don’t live in a theocracy, and have no desire to do so. Iran rejects this.

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  116. valeriusterminus (242 comments) says:

    So LibertyScott
    I see your vitriolic criticism of Iran. So who is the racist here?
    Ahmadinejad critiques the policies of Israel and you unashamedly respond “antisemite”
    If you want to see a racist you should look in the mirror (of your) mate!

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  117. valeriusterminus (242 comments) says:

    LibertyScott
    “Hamas after all promotes to Palestinian children the glory of being a martyr ”
    And the state of Israel conscripts every one of it’s children into the obscene ranks of the IDF.
    I see the evil party here!

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  118. valeriusterminus (242 comments) says:

    Alas – need to quote myself!
    “Murray, what is it with these “blacked out yellow lines” in Beachfront Lane. – Did the Smarts get it wrong??”

    And Murray is Justice Michael Lance your mate? – or just the guy next door?
    So where is the ROW? – to the North or to the South of Flax?
    (can recommend this restaurant – and The Saint and the Massey Albany McThing”)
    Did the Smart brothers do everything, needed? – or is your ROW not defined – however;

    http://www.northshorecity.govt.nz/your_council/agendas_minutes/2009/Community-boards/East-Coast-Bays/ecb-cb-090202-minutes.pdf

    – may atttempt to address this. (sorry no tagging)
    Mr Lance allegedly addresses this in his own fashion;
    http://kiwisfirst.co.nz/….wrath
    Sorry no tagging or linking cos this alleged coiner is allegedly litigious and I have no wish to express a critical opinion

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  119. valeriusterminus (242 comments) says:

    Some context here;
    Engaged at Flax for a wine and desert for my Wife and I on a most recent public holiday, encountered an ugly incident; where a family (obviously imimgrant – but so essential to our NSC fabric) had parked their Wagon – complicit with signage – while having a picnic on the Green, before dusk — Mr “I live here” – maybe inspired by the confidence of recent imbibiles? (maybe not!)
    asserted the common right of “there is no valid – noparking sign here” – however sod off! (apropos)
    Then many ascribations of failure of NSC and violations of the DP re the nearby Skate Park were absorbed by Flax diners
    Scary – finished our desert – checked our adjacently parked car for reprisal – and fled!!

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