This shows that no matter what your race, Maori, Pakeha, Asian, Pasifika whatever, you can still miss the point.
Let me state AGAIN seats are about 3 key issues:
Te Tiriti o Waitangi was a document founded on partnership. Despite the rhetoric flying around that the Treaty does not say “give Maori seats” we need to realise the Treaty has and will always be a living and breathing document. The Waitangi Tribunal in 1975 clearly stated that the treaty needed to be interpreted not simply upon the words written (and there is still debate on the interpretations of what was written between Maori and Pakeha) but also upon the principles that were meant to be applied. In keeping with this partnership, there should be a guaranteed voice for Tangata Whenua.
There is no denying that Maori are key economic stakeholders in Auckland, from Land and Water usage rights, to Fisheries and beyond. Ngati Whatua is a significant player within the Auckland region as is Tainui….for those who don’t know these are tribes(ahem)….and they should be represented.
Myth of Equality
I struggle to see exactly how people can claim that our elected officials are simply elected on their relative “Merits”. What a joke. Are you all serious? To claim this is factually incorrect and logically incosistent. The fact is people are elected because of perception, qualifications and merit to some degree, advertising and money. In local government especially, people are more likely to vote for the candidate they KNOW rather than the candidate best suited or qualified for the job. Its easy for the right to claim “its based on merit” when it suits!
So David how about instead of trying to use your token Maori opponent, and lets be honest you wouldn’t have posted the article if the writer wasn’t Maori, you try and come up with a substantive case as to your parties opposition to a guaranteed voice for Maori?
[DPF: I have no problems with a guaranteed voice for tangata whenua. A guaranteed Councillor is a different thing.]
Dime, even if Maori stand what guarantee is there that they will be elected? Zero. And as Tangata Whenua with significant interests in Auckland, this simply can’t happen. Maori need to be at the decision making table.
Secondly, there will always be pakeha that are elected. Always! You are not the minority. You as a demographic do not fall behind in every socio-economic indicator. When you are 14% of the population, when only 13% of young pakeha achieve Level 3 NCEA. When 51% of the prison population is Pakeha. When Pakeha household income on average is only $24,000. Then perhaps you could make a comparison between Maori and Pakeha, but as those will never be the facts. Your argument is inherently flawed.
so kingi, what youre saying is… if white people slack off, dont bother to educate our kids, commit crimes and go to jail… we should be rewarded with special privileges in both local government and national government?
How would you react if those white people campaigned on the basis that they were going into office to push the cause of the white man and nothing else?
A council should be made up of people who are there to push the views and concerns of ALL of their constituents, to say you want to be elected simply to represent one race of people is racist, it CANNOT be anything but racist.
“dont bother to educate our kids” – I’m sorry did our PUBLIC education system disappear overnight?
“commit crimes” – and how do we go about reducing crime, because it is a societal issue that our SOCIETY needs to address.
And don’t even think you are going to abrogate pakeha responsibility for the inherent disadvantage Maori face in our society.
as long as maori think like you do maori will never progress. As long as you sit around with your hand out playing the victim you will always be the victim.
Give yourself a boot up the fucken arse and become a productive part of society. Stop maori youth crime? Start becoming role model parents – simple.
The maori I know living overseas are prospering – why – because they dont have a hand out mentality -THEY GOT OFF THEIR ARSES
Why bother folks this is NZ now KINGI (or a very small potion of him) was here first and the BROS rule and us honky red neck pakehas can fuck off, right kingi its all about (IWI) i want it for nothing BROS
Oh yes Big Bruv…you are right…its simply everyone’s own fault for every problem that disadvantages them.
You know following your logic…theoretically…I could say get mugged…the police catch the culprit and then when he goes to court, he says its not his fault, its my fault for allowing myself to be at the place he mugged me, and for allowing him to take my stuff.
As you can see, clearly it doesn’t make sense to simply say EVERY PROBLEM FACED BY MAORI IS SIMPLY THEIR OWN FAULT. Its ridiculous and typical of a right wing attitude to any minority group who don’t fit their ideal. The right have always been prepared to judge generally without context being taken into account.
Kingi, it’d be a veeeerrrryyy long bow to claim that Maori underachievement in education, over-achievement in crime and lower than average incomes is due to a lack of Maori city councillors.
Maybe we’d be more receptive to a Maori point of view if we saw some hikoi where Maori were marching to send a message to other Maori to take education more seriously, to break the cycle of crime and violence and to get ever-improving quality of work and income.
Until that happens then please don’t be surprised if we are dismissive of Maori attempts to obtain undemocratic representation. Yes, undemocratic. One person, one vote. If Maori want to get representation then the Maori Party should put up a strong slate of candidates for the Supercity council and get the Maori vote out to ensure they get elected. Shouldn’t be too hard when you see the turnout rates for local body elections.
Maori have special seats in central government as a historical legacy, from a time when votes were only given to landowners and Maori were cut out of representation because of their shared ownership of land. That time has passed, and so should the Maori seats in Parliament. Certainly we shouldn’t be compounding a historical blind alley by creating a new undemocratic distortion.
And no, I don’t buy that the Treaty justifies special Maori representation. The Treaty gave Maori all the rights of British subjects. Like the right to vote. We’ve honoured that part of the Treaty. If you don’t think that’s something Pakeha conveyed to Maori under the Treaty then perhaps you should ponder just what formal voting rights regular members of a tribe had pre-1940. I wonder what Hone Heke would have done if someone had said he had to take a vote before chopping down the flagpole?
Kingi, my father’s family arrived in NZ in 1840, my mother’s family in 1852 and 95% of my forebears were born and raised in our country. Yes, our country. Yet I don’t regard myself as any more entitled to special treatment than someone who received their citizenship yesterday. So remind me why someone with fractional Maori ancestory should be entitled to apatheid-like entitlement to representation in our democracy?
Nearly every problem I face is caused by ME, if it is not caused by me then I am the only one who can fix that problem.
Why is it that my politics should be an issue here?, this is not a left v right issue at all, it is an issue of personal responsibility, I refuse to blame anybody else for my misfortune and I sure as hell do not expect people I do not know to pay for or assist me with those problems.
I do not seek to blame anybody else Kingi I simply get on and make the best of a bad situation, why should it be any different for anybody else?
The Asians are a minority group kingi you dont see their kids skipping school whilst mums at the pub and dads nowhere in sight, neither do you see them demanding anything special – In fact you see them in the higher income groups
why is that kingi?
In fact history will show the more you’ve got over the past 15 years – the worse you’ve become
Patrick Starr- I am the first to say we need to stop whinging about past injustice and start working towards improving outcomes. I AM THE FIRST. But what I don’t need is the right saying, “you are equal with everyone else, you don’t need assistance, get on with it we do” how about stop thinking about your own self interest and looking at simple fact. Maori are disadvantaged. The facts are there! Right in front of you, and you still base all your arguments on the fact its “their own fault” “they are to blame” how about instead of blaming, you look at what the causal roots of societal dysfunction are and address them.
Big Bruv- Similarly, why does the right always like to blame and shame and then not do anything to solve the deeper issues. The facts are fact, we need to have measures to solve the issues.
Kingi. Thats because Im sick and tired of brown hands in my pockets. You are disadvantaged because as a race you expect everyone else to prop you up.
I’ll ask you again;
-The maori I know living overseas are prospering – why?
-The Asians are a minority group kingi you dont see their kids skipping school whilst mums at the pub and dads nowhere in sight, neither do you see them demanding anything special – In fact you see them in the higher income groups – why?
Yes, Maori were disadvantaged when NZ was colonised by Europeans. That was 150 years ago, that excuse is long past its used by date.
All cultures have been disadvantaged by others, my ancestors have been murdered, invaded, and robbed by Vikings, English, Romans, Visigoths, Russians, Germans, Huns and god knows how many others. I’m over it.
It’s up to Maori to maintain their culture or as Darwin predicted, it will die.
Why do Maori need help to solve these “issues”, no other ethnic group in NZ seeks to blame others for their ills, no other ethnic group seeks to blame another race of people for the problems that they face.
What exasperates so many people Kingi is the total lack of Maori personal responsibility, Maori will march for land and for council seats yet month after month Maori continue to be at the very top of all the negative statistics, NOBODY inside Maoridom seems to want to take ownership of this problem, meanwhile generation after generation of your young continue to fall through the cracks.
It is about time that you demanded action from your leaders, and it is about time that your people stopped looking to blame everybody else for your problems.
Kingi, you seem to be stating that if only pakeha would be more bloody understanding Maori would do better in education etc etc.
I have heard some wonderful bullshit in my time but your bullshit takes the bloody card.
Damn it man have you ever stopped for a bloody moment to work out that too many Maori kids watch too much bloody TV or play too many video games to do well in education.
It is the fault of pakeha that too many Maori homes have no books in them ?
Pity so many of our people have not heard of libraries is it not ?
Or the bloody internet for study from the open poly.
Or are you saying that our people are not up to studying in a pakeha started university ?
Sonny – I believe the culture is part of the problem not the solution.
With culture comes values and what values you instil in your children. If I taught my children to dance around with sticks, making loud noises and poking their tongues out was going to lead to better things in life then I could only blame myself if they didn’t achieve anything later on.
If, on the other hand I taught my kids that education was the key, in fact I moved into a suburb to get the best schooling, and set a strict regime for my children’s study, no expense spared….well – I would probably be an Asian
– their lays one big difference between the two minority groups
A prediction. If the proposed Hide Auckland Governance structure is put into place there will be:
1. One Samoan Manukau councillor and two pakeha
2. Two Waitakere Councillors
3. Three North Shore pakeha councillors
4. Four Auckland pakeha Councillors
5. 8 at large pakeha councillors.
6. A pakeha mayor. Len Brown would be good, John Banks would be a disaster.
How representative is this?
[DPF: Wow, you know the ethnicity of all the Council before we even have candidates and a vote. I know this is hard for you to handle but there are lots of white folk who vote for non-white candidates. Yeah I know this is hard for you to handle but it is true. Sam LI beat Carol in Maungakiekie and she was white.]
Patrick, where does your inherent prejudices against “brown hands” come from? I’m Maori but my hands are white I can tell you now! rofl.
Its about my belief in caring for the poorest and most vulnerable. Unfortunately and it is unfortunate, Maori tend to be over represented in these demographics. When people begin to acknowledge the reasons behind why things are the way they are, begin to acknowledge the deep rooted reasons behind the issues Maori face, we can move forward.
So when you all, stop blaming and beginning looking at solve the root problems ie being proactive rather than reactive. We can move forward together. Although I would rather say I will move forward with sane and intelligible people. Not that those who have made racist, rude, comments aren’t intelligible…..
mickysavage. Just as an example … for the last 15 years good old ultra-conservative white Dunedin has elected an Indian women and then a Chinese man as their mayors. I don’t think the Pakeha of Auckland are really any different than the Pakeha of Dunedin – both are quite happy to vote for non-Pakeha, as long as they are good candidates who can deliver good outcomes. So no, I don’t buy your prediction.
Or rather, if your prediction turns out to be correct then maybe it will say more about the (low) quality of non-Pakeha candidates, rather than the voting preferences of Pakeha voters.
[DPF: And the conservative folk in Carterton elected a Maori transsexual as Mayor]
“inherent prejudices against “brown hands” come from?” – I heard Bob Harvey say it about Paula Bennet (apparently it was fine then)
“my belief in caring for the poorest and most vulnerable” Fine, dont do it with my money, I’ll decide where my charity goes.
“So when you all, stop blaming” No Kingi – Its YOU who are blaming.
Besides, you still havent answered my two questions?
To all of you. Again you all come down to this inherently flawed, yes thats right boys start rejigging those causal links, start getting out your dictionaries of hate and realise the following:
I am not saying Maori do not have long ways to go in improving their own situations. However what we are talking about is representation as mandated through partnership under the treaty. Some of you seem to not know your history very well, there were severe and historic injustices committed, this is widely acknowleged.
In spite of that, we managed to survive population decimation to almost 5% of our previous numbers and have surived to be a rich and vibrant part of what makes our country what it is. I don’t understand how you can all claim Maori are simply “another minority” Are Maori anywhere else in the world in numbers such as in Aotearoa? If we don’t succeed here, our culture and people will wither away! Don’t you all see that? Clearly not, but I’m getting off the post topic.
The same right wing arguments will fly as they always have, based on hate, based on factual and logical inconsistencies and based on this belief that if I don’t have it no one should. Well guess what boys, sorry to break your parades of conservative vitriol, but the facts are the facts. Maori are Tangata Whenua and none of you can EVER take that away.
[DPF: You have a view that the Treaty mandated separate representation, but that is merely your view. You can;t state that as a fact. What is a known fact is that the parliamentary Maori seats were introduced as a temporary measure to allow Maori to vote, as many Maori did not qualify as land owners, as so much of their land was communal. So the history of Maori representation is nothing to do with the Treaty, but was intended as a short-term pragmatic measure to allow Maori communal land owners to have a vote]
“So when you all, stop blaming and beginning looking at solve the root problems ie being proactive rather than reactive.”
I am being proactive, I went to school, got a job, pay taxes, and treat people politely. My only brush with the law has been parking tickets and I haven’t spent a night inside a hospital for 25 years. I have never received any form of social welfare except for a student loan.
Until we get representative organisations that reflect the local population we have a problem.
[DPF: Maori are currently over-represented in the NZ Parliament. Is that a problem? As for Auckland Council I would say that John Tamihere and WIlly Jackson could easily win seats on the Council - either at large or wards]
“I went to school, got a job, pay taxes, and treat people politely. My only brush with the law has been parking tickets and I haven’t spent a night inside a hospital for 25 years. I have never received any form of social welfare except for a student loan.”
“What more would you like me to do to help you?”
Well anything other than looking after yourself might be a start.
Kingi, no-one who thinks they’re a victim ever grows or succeeds in doing anything of significance. No-one.
If you preach your attitude to your own people you’re doing them the greatest dis-service any man could do to another. You give them an excuse to say: I’m helpless. I can’t succeed cause “the man” is keeping me down.
Whether you like it or not, or whether you intend to or not, that’s what you do.
“Maori are currently over-represented in the NZ Parliament”
As are middle aged white men in suits.
Patrick, until you think about that “brown hands in my pocket” quote I’m not sure if it is worth talking to you on this subject. As for your interest in my personal life, well I’m flattered but perhaps you should find a more suitable forum if you are trying to make new friends.
You screwed up, deal with it and stop trying to divert attention Paddy.
I think without talking about the issues of social justice we can look at the significance of Tangata Whenua – that is the important role of Tainui and Ngati Whatua in the creation of Auckland. Let’s not forget that Tamaki Makaurau existed before Auckland did, and Tangata Whenua had a meaningful way of life before colonization. We can’t ignore the principles of the treaty, that is, the mutually supporting principles of Kawanatanga and Rangatiratanga in the formation of the state of New Zealand. The Kawanatanga is illegitimate if Tangata Whenua don’t have Rangatiratanga, or chieftainship (perhaps, embedded self-governance, to an extent). In the modern sense, Rangatiratanga is supported and maintained by the Maori seats in parliament, and by recursion, the same principles have to apply to the Auckland super-council, if said council is to have any of the authority of Kawanatanga.
Until we get representative organisations that reflect the local population we have a problem.
My next door neighbour is a one-armed wallpaper hanger. He’s terribly underrepresented in local body politics. As is the woman with alopecia next door to him, as is the young boy racer at the end of the street. Based on your comment mickey it appears that we need more morons standing lest you be left unrepresented.
“Are Maori anywhere else in the world in numbers such as in Aotearoa? If we don’t succeed here, our culture and people will wither away! Don’t you all see that? Clearly not, but I’m getting off the post topic.”
Yes, we do see that Kingi. It’s a message Maori culture needs to heed, nobody else can do anything about it. And introducing apartheid is a step away from doing something about it.
“The same right wing arguments will fly as they always have, based on hate, based on factual and logical inconsistencies and based on this belief that if I don’t have it no one should. Well guess what boys, sorry to break your parades of conservative vitriol, but the facts are the facts.”
And now you reveal yourself to be a bigot. It goes hand in hand with apartheid I suppose.
Kingi. Please, a serious question … just which part of the Treaty entitles Maori to special undemocratic representation in either local or central Government?
Article 1 says the Queen is sovereign of New Zealand. Article 2 gives the Chiefs (but what about non-Chiefs?) undisturbed ownership of their treasures. But it also says they can only sell their land to the Crown. And Article 3 gives Maori the same rights as all other British subjects.
Maori have had justified grievances about Article 2, particularly around land. But, really, I think it’d be absurd to argue that local government was a taonga that Maori treasured in 1840.
And we have delivered Article 3. In terms of the Supercity, you have a vote. You can stand as a candidate in the election too. Those are the same rights as all the other “British” subjects have. The same rights. Rights that were new to Maori, who had no equivalent in their pre-Treaty culture.
So your comment about “representation as mandated through partnership under the treaty” seems a very wishful interpretation of what the Treaty promises.
David, david, david. I find it interesting you bring in the parliamentary maori seats. You say they were brought in to give Maori a vote as they were not land owners. Now why was that, why was it that Maori were not land owners David? What legislation was enacted that stripped Maori land and meant Maori could not vote? Don’t even get me started on the laws passed clearly to disadvantage Maori and manipulate them into giving up their land. At a time I might add that Women were also not allowed to vote. They weren’t set up for any other reason but to use as a political tool by the governments at the time. How you could claim that as pragmatic…I will never know.
And now Sonny disqualifies himself on the grounds of ignorance.
Go find out what Apartheid was Sonny, I’ll give you a wee clue, it did not involve respecting the rights of indigenous people to be represented,it was more a creation of white settlers who thought all black and brown people were inferior to them, indeed culturally they were “savages” They had to be led by the civilized white people so they could be more like them.
Ask yourself Sonny, which attitude is closer to yours?
Let the Treaty Process which is necessary, redress the evil that was done to your ancestors but relegate that to the past and don’t view it as a necessary solution to enable some future utopia because it won’t and it can’t.
Healthy people stand in the present looking forward.
Try to act like that and you start thinking that and then after awhile of doing that, sincerely, miraculously your previously insurmountable issues melt away in the light of your unlimited possibility. And newsflash: it’s all up to you and once YOU ALONE decide on that path, no-one and nothing can stop you from succeeding in whatever you want to do.
Get that message across to your people and the issue of Maori Seats will become a minor issue of little significance.
Fail to do that and you continue to wallow in the hell of victimhood.
Virtual, I would point you to the Waitangi Tribunal Act 1975. The act mandated that the Tribunal should evaluate crowns dealings with regards to Maori, to ensure that the “principles” of the treaty were being upheld. Now as I have articulated previously, these principles are a broad range of agreed upon conventions, and partnership is utmost amongst these.
I would like to put it another way, if Maori were not to get seats, and no maori were elected. Would that be ok? What if no women were elected? No pasifika, no indian, no one but white men. Would that be ok? Would that be representative? I think not. How can you all justify a lack of diversity?
As I’ve already said, you all seem to have this inane belief that somehow people will make the “right” decisions based “solely on the people’s merits” this is just so inherently flawed its ridiculous! Why do you think people have CAMPAIGNS! Get real.
Kingi, the “principles” of the Treaty (and yes, we both put the word principles in quotes … implying they’re pretty woolly) were probably best set down by the Court of Appeal in 1987. Re the concept of “partnership” the Court of Appeal said that the Treaty created a partnership and that the partners had a duty to act in good faith towards each other. But acting in good faith is not the same as “guarantee seats in local and central Government”. I would contend that acting in good faith in partnership is delivered by allowing Maori to stand candidates and to vote in those elections.
If Maori don’t get seats, and no Maori are elected, then I would ask you just who did all the Maori voters vote for???? If you want Maori representation then put up some good Maori candidates and get the Maori vote out. Yes, people have campaigns. I recommend that Maori get started on their one asap.
Take the opportunity you have and run with it. Stop asking for an undeserved hand out.
For goodness sake
Maori were never, are never and will never be PARTNERS. They were PARTIES to a treaty. A treaty that gave them the same rights as the settlers. They have the same right to vote, the same right to stand for election and the same right to be elected.
oh reid. you live in a sad little world my friend. Where nothing but what you want seems to exist. Please once you come off whatever you are on…let me know and we can have a debate based on intelligent discussion.
Patrick, as I said, once there is an equitable society for all people, we can begin to move forward.
Kingi, if you look at Auckland’s votes in central Government … you’ll see Aucklanders elected a good diverse range of representatives. There’s some white men, and some white women, and some Maori, and some Pacific Islanders, a few Asians, a Muslim …
I think you have an undeservedly low opinion of Auckland voters. They have proven they will vote for good candidates of all races and creeds. Why do you think they will vote differently in a local body election???
sonic – I know you are feeling lonely because no one would talk to you on the budget threat, Like I felt embarrassed for you, you poor attention seeking old fool. But really, as grumpyoldhori said………STFU
Patrick – maybe you missed this from the other thread -
After the runaway success of the IGNORE SONIC campaign on the Budget2009 thread on Kiwiblog, John English and Bill Key have just announced as a extra Budget2009 bonus the IGNORE SONIC campaign will now be in place until March 31 2010.
Thats right Ladies and Gentlemen you get to – IGNORE SONIC UNTIL MARCH 2010.
Who said there wasn’t something for everyone in Budget 2009?
This Government delivers bigtime.
Apartheid definition if anyone needs it –
any system or practice that separates people according to race, caste, etc. – source – Dictionary.com
Kingi- So what are you saying. You want maori to control and dictate? – Geeez, I dunno, lets think about this for a moment, on one hand you doing so well for yourselves, stable family units, disciplined, hard working, well educated, real role models…….
yep, that’s what special privileges are – because I don’t get them because I’m a different race – hang on, that’s racism isn’t it?
Sonny Blount for fucks sake man, the people of Gisborne voted for Meng Foon are you trying to say the Maori and Pakeha there are all types who feel such guilt that they had to get a bloke with a Han Chinese heritage in as mayor ?
Sonny-I’d be careful, the Secret Service and all..rofl.
Virtual-I point to the decimation of centuries of civilizations. Egyptians, Romans, Persians and so on. All at the hands of who? Yes thats right.
Patrick-No no, you want to control and dictate. Because its suits your apparent misogyny. Are you saying all non maori families are stable, disciplined, hard working, well educated, real role models? HAHAHAHAHA, I love how you generalise to suit your tory ends.
Many immigrants have arrived here with nothing. They aren’t white, they may not even speak the language. They succeed. How do you account for that? They started from a position of disadvantage far behind Maori.
They realized they’ve won life’s lottery simply by being in this country.
Maori, sadly, often fail to realize the same thing.
Get your act together. You’ve been handed opportunity after opportunity and you’re still whining.
Kingi, so why are YOUR views right ?
And no you are not the only Maori posting.
But I am amused by the statement that those who do not follow your lead are all real conservatives.
Makes a change from being called a screaming socialist.
Kingi. You haven’t got a chip on your shoulder, you’ve got the entire fucken forest.
My generalisation was based on my previous questions you continue to avoid,
Here they are again.
-The maori I know living overseas are prospering – why?
-The Asians are a minority group but you dont see their kids skipping school whilst mums at the pub and dads nowhere in sight, neither do you see them demanding anything special – In fact you see them in the higher income groups – why?
Grumpy, peoples views are of course relative to each person. However I believe in my convictions strongly, and I will defend and argue them strongly. I am not so arrogant however that I don’t appreciate differing views, however if those views are simply hateful, racist and vitriolic splurges, I tend to ignore them. If they are reasoned, rationale and passionate arguments that don’t descend into muck raking, then I of course give them the benefit of my reading and acknowledging them.
“I point to the decimation of centuries of civilizations. Egyptians, Romans, Persians and so on. All at the hands of who? Yes thats right.”
I think other cultures were trying to destroy this ‘white male’ culture also. Are you saying the ‘white males’ should have let them? Or that the prevailing culture should be ashamed of being smart and successful?
Does their exist a non island culture that didn’t try to conquer it’s neighbours?
Well Kingi of course we are exceedingly grateful to have the “benefit of your reading” and accordingly with due respect I’d politely ask you please to direct your mighty intellect toward Patrick’s question about overseas Maori and Asians.
That’s politely put isn’t it?
Looking forward to your astute response with baited breath and in appropriate and respectful silence.
Patrick, we are talking about Maori here in Aotearoa, New Zealand. Besides, there is no credibility to your claims that the “Maori I know living overseas are prospering-why?” Do you not realise not all people are the same? I mean that in terms of skills and so on. Of course there are successful Maori. This doesn’t mean because SOME are succesful that suddenly EVERYONE can be in the same way. We are not all the same. We are diverse and different. So claiming that because Maori “oversease” are succeeding has no correlation to the overall substantive case you are trying to peddle.
Comparing Asians and Maori is also a fallacious and erroneous attempt to push what you want to push. I can pull examples out of thin air anytime to support my claims. I prefer to stick to facts. The way you lump people together to push your views, is ridiculous. How about I lump you in with the 70% of paedophiles in the states who are white men? You wouldn’t like that much would you? So stop doing it to others.
Patrick is clearly saying that if Maori succeed overseas, which they do, then clearly there is nothing inherent in Maori that prevents them from succeeding.
Secondly, he is saying that if Asians succeed here, which they do, then clearly there is nothing inherent in the NZ environment that prevents anyone from succeeding here, regardless of whether they are Pakeha or anything else.
No no, you miss the point again. What I am saying is that just because you dredge up some examples to prove your point, doesn’t actually change the facts. Anyone can show examples of success and can say, “well look this person did it so you should be able to as well” but that simply doesn’t take into account context. Which is vitally important. Each persons circumstances is different. So sure you can say oh well this person succeeded and that group did this, that doesn’t change anything.
That reid, is what it has to do with the point of this thread.
Kingi, you’re arguing that Maori need Maori seats because they won’t be represented if they don’t get them. That’s what you’re saying.
In other words, they won’t succeed without special treatment.
This mentality degrades Maori and treats them as victims and worse than that, it teaches every individual Maori who buys your argument that they are helpless on an individual level because they would never have elected representation without the good grace of those people in power who were kind enough to grant them a special dispensation.
Is that the message you want to send? That Maori depend on Uncle Tom? I thought you were for the Maori people. Guess I was wrong.
you just like to lump people together dont you! Your generalisations are astounding!
Frankly this is fucking rich (no pun intended – seeing as Kingi is turning this into a debate about rich and poor) coming from you!
Let me remind myself (and others) of your towering intellect:
[E]ven if Maori stand what guarantee is there that they will be elected? Zero. And as Tangata Whenua with significant interests in Auckland, this simply can’t happen. Maori need to be at the decision making table.
Naturally, Kingi, you’re not making an astounding generalisation about Maori standing for election – a generalisation, by the way, that is easily refuted (Georgina Beyer).
The same right wing arguments will fly as they always have, based on hate, based on factual and logical inconsistencies and based on this belief that if I don’t have it no one should.
Of course, Kingi, I wouldn’t suggest you’re lumping people with “right wing arguments” together.
I’ve given your comments on this thread a fair reading, Kingi. However, I think this comment (9:47 pm) gets to the heart of your argument: “Its about my belief in caring for the poorest and most vulnerable. Unfortunately and it is unfortunate, Maori tend to be over represented in these demographics”. So, Kingi, if it’s about poverty and vulnerability, why aren’t you advocating that the “poor” and the “vulnerable” (according to widely-accepted criteria) should have preferential representation (in addition to the same guaranteed voting right that everyone else has)? Is it because you know that argument wouldn’t be politically acceptable?
I’ve never heard a group of people that generalise themselves as much as Maori do. Common shit from the racist party – “Maori need ….. ” “… Is important to Maori” “our people”. Naturally it’s a little different if you turn it around and generalise them in a negative light, they want their cake and eat it too. If a Scot tried to generalise me because I’m a Scottish, I’d tell them to go fuck themselves.
Who the fuck does this Kingi guy think he is talking for them? Clearly Toa thinks differently.
“and even your last comment reid, “If Maori can succeed” “If Asians succeeded” you just like to lump people together dont you! Your generalisations are astounding!”
Well Kingi, here’s a hint for you in future.
If someone does succeed and another doesn’t, it usually depends not on circumstance, but on their attitude. Everyday, millions of people do extraordinary things that sometimes astound even they themselves. Everyday, millions of other people give up and fail. Guess what both sets of people have in common? They think.
The people that think they will win, do. The people that think they won’t, don’t.
The amount of times force majeur enters into this equation is limited to the accidents of fate that physically prevent the person from succeeding. Perhaps they miss the bus to that interview, perhaps they get hit by a bus. In all the rest of the cases, it’s attitude alone that determines the outcome.
So you see Kingi, everyone’s fate is in their own hands. Lefties have particular trouble understanding this because they are taught from birth that no-one is ever responsible for their own fate, that rather, it’s circumstances that control people’s destinies. People, according to lefties, are helpless automatons swept up by forces beyond their control and tossed hither and yon by circumstance. This is the basis of lefty social engineering and its poisonous application is responsible for more unhappiness than any other force known to man, including warfare. The fallacy of this proposition is so mind-bogglingly obvious that one would think lefties would number in only the few hundreds worldwide. Unfortunately there are millions of you and since you’re not all completely thick I can only conclude that you’ve been sucked into believing that your approach is the only humane way to go and that’s why you guys keep advocating it. Shame really, for while your hearts in the right place, your mind is elsewhere.
The point Kingi is, don’t treat people as victims. Instead, give them self-belief, from that comes confidence, from confidence comes results, from results comes change in circumstance. That’s the only thing that will pull Maori out of their plight.
Hey Kingi, since Maori cant be lopped into one basket as you put it, and each persons circumstances are different, how about we don’t just give funding to Maori just for being Maori. How about we give a hand up to people who are suffering hard times. Now watch this magic: if more Maori are suffering, a higher proportion of Maori get aid – which should help Maori “close the gaps”. But this way doesn’t automatically associate all Maori with failure. Such a policy also passes a key test for me: I take two people in poverty to equal degrees, one Maori, the other non Maori; they both get exactly the same amount of aid and thus the policy is 0% racist. Incidently, this is what Don Brash suggested. For some reason he was branded a racist for doing so.
Kingi’s silly argument aside, if this guy Toa runs for the new auckland council in an at large seat, he’ll get a vote from me. If he runs in my area he’d probably get a vote from me as well. So there we go a white male is prepared to vote for a Maori councillor. Take from that what you will, but I’d suggest chance of a Maori getting elected is >>0. In fact people are so desperate to hear a Maori politican take a mainstream view that if he did so, he’d probably get voted for over non-maori using the same platform.
Seems like Kingi has to get in touch with his inner maori – his mana – like his ancestors did. The ones who navigated across oceans in open outrigger canoes; arrived in a new cold country with just a few tools, some seed, and half of their number sick and dying. They cleaned up their corner of the world with miltary power and built and enforced a recognised culture with the technology of the day.
So now it’s a new day, with new technology and new challenges. Don’t let your ancestors down, Kingi.
I might have missed something in this superb discussion but I think Peta Sharples let the cat out the other day when discussing Maori representation when he said something like ” If Maori stand for election, no-one will vote for them so they must be appointed.”
What this says to me is
1. Maori members of our community are not interested in democracy
2. The tribal structure is alive and well
3. A chiefly class of Moari continue to rule the roost
4. No-one else really cares about Maori representation except those who will be appointed as representatives
I hope that Maori wake up to the fact that after 150 years of opportunity in a 1st world country, they are their own worst enemies. If they carry on with Kingi’s mentality for the next 150 years they are certainly consigning themselves to the scrapheap of history.
To think that the gravy train we have been living under will carry on for ever is just plain dumb.
The only thing that will prosper is hard work and education.
As the Asian immigrants are out their proving every day.
Anything else is a long term death warrant. And that goes for every race.
Don’t expect someone else to butter your bread.
So when things are looking really bad
And you’re thinking of giving it a way
Remember, New Zealand’s a cracker
And I reckon come what may
If things get appallingly bad
And we’re all under constant attack
Remember, we want to see good clean ball
And for god’s sakes, feed your backs
We don’t how fortunate we are to have this place
We don’t know how propitious are the circumstances.
We don’t know how lucky we are, mate
We don’t know how lucky we are,
We don’t know how lucky we are, get it right
We just don’t realise how fortunate we are
We have no idea, the luck, we possess, collectively
We just don’t know how lucky we all are. Full stop
Kinigi – your male ancestors had the vote in New Zealand before mine did. Mine did not qualify for the vote until universal male franchise was introduced because they did not have the requisite property entitlements.
You don’t get it guys. Kingi wants ‘right thinking’ Maori elected – the ones not many people would vote for. Toa is just not acceptable to them as he is not Maori enough. He doesn’t support the whole ‘Maori as victims’ story so is a traitor to his people. Totally unacceptable to Pita and Hone and the rest. The only way they can get ‘real’ Maori into power is through special reserved seats.
Good to see one Maori (Toa) who’s thinking ahead for once.
Don’t be fooled – there are tens of thousands of Maori who think like Mr Greening. They are the ones who don’t make up the negative statistics applied to Maori that seem to be so beloved of those on the left.
“if Maori succeed overseas, which they do, then clearly there is nothing inherent in Maori that prevents them from succeeding.
Secondly, if Asians succeed here, which they do, then clearly there is nothing inherent in the NZ environment that prevents anyone from succeeding here, regardless of whether they are Pakeha or anything else.
Actually Linda, we DO get it. That too terrifies the Kingis of this world.
Peter, perhaps the best and brightest are the ones who went overseas. Certainly a huge proportion of Maori have moved to Oz and are doing very nicely for themselves. My brother couldn’t get half here of what hes collecting there at the moment.
Murray – when I lived in london in the 80s I used to work for this Maori guy who owned three pubs and a land-scaping business. I remember him telling me that getting away from NZ was the best thing he ever did because he was away from all the negativity he had to put up with from his family for trying to be a ‘success’ in the western sense of success.
Kingi: “and even your last comment reid, “If Maori can succeed” “If Asians succeeded” you just like to lump people together dont you! Your generalisations are astounding!”
Says then collectivist who bleats on about a non existent abstraction called “Maori”. Quit your racist shit Kingi….humnas are individuals….not collectives.Want to see whats really keeping Maori people down…? Look in the mirror.
Big ups to Kingi for at least attempting to defend the proposal for seperate representation for indigenous people.
What everyone else doesn’t get is that it does not need to be defended because as I read the lines and between the lines:
1. It is
2. Te Tiriti says it is
3. We are the Tangata Whenua end of discussion. (sing after me: “this land is our land, this land is our land from North Cape Headland, to Stewart Island)
4. Maori are FIRST NATIONS therefore there can be no argument. (we were here first and you remain guests in our country. It will never be your country regardless of how many locally born generations you represent. We would kick you out if we could but there are too many of you)
5 White people have subjected Moari to hideous abuse over decades and it is time for retribution. (we demand a say in running the government and councils as of right – not as representatives of anyone)
6. The world has not changed since 1800. Success is not possible through a citizen’s own efforts or through the ambition of himself or his whanau. (victim mentality and demands for extra funding to support a relatively small but totally disfunctional segment of “society)
7. It is society’s (rich racist white people who have subjected Maori to unspeakable abuse over decades) fault that the whanau have no ambition for themselves or for their children (the problems with crime, gangs, drugs, child abuse, obesity do not reflect the standards of the influencers by and large)
8 Maori live in a feudal society whereby the chief “owns: everything and the rest of the tribe (iwi/hapu) do what they are told, when they are told and are not permitted to think for themselves, set standards of behaviour for whanau or other tribe members or have ambition for their families. (No one votes but thousands can be got off their arses to march on a Hikoi.WTF) We have carefully hidden this “chieftanness” and privilege of the few behind a smokescreen of Kaumatuas, Trustees of tribal trusts, rituals, a King and all that surrounds that role, spokesmen and activists. Meantime many, many people of Maori descent want nothing to do with it, don’t ask for a share of the settlement claims for a variety of reasons but commonly because they don’t think that they deserve a handout, are making their own ways, are bringing up relatively stable families and educating their kids to get on in the real world.
Frankly it is no wonder that many of us have difficulty with the concepts that are driving this matter and how they can be supported by thinking and educated people who have supposedly developed a refined ability of critical thought and analysis
I agree totally, but you have IMHO left out a few additional ones:
IF you are a Maori and dare to get educated and advance yourself, we’ll beat the living daylights out of you because ‘your’e not Maori enough and have sold-out (betrayed) the tribe’.
If you are a Maori and DO succeed and do well for yourself we’ll beat the living daylights out of you because ‘your’e not Maori enough and have sold-out (betrayed) the tribe’.
If,in spite of all of the above beatings you STILL insist on advancing yourself, we’ll declare you to be a ‘Bounty Bar’ (White on the inside, Brown on the outside) and isolate you completely and utterly – and than come around and trash your house, harrass your kids and turn the ‘bro’s on you.
And IF you STILL somehow actually manage to succeed (even in spite of what has gone before), we’ll then claim you as one of our own and tell everyone what a wonderful example of your tribe and culture you are and how PROUD we are of you, and what a role- model you are for all (especially young) Maori. (A ‘koha’ of the ‘folding-stuff’ seems to speed the process, I’ve noticed)
Believe me, I’m NOT joking!!
(BTW, has anyone else noticed that Kingi hasn’t responded to any of the last 20-odd posts. Doesn’t that strike you as somewhat strange?)
You all seem to think that someone by Maori seeking rights that should be according to tangata whenua, this somehow means we are simply asking for handouts and are “consigning ourselves to the scrap heap.” I love how you feign your “concern” for Maori, when in reality the right hates the ideas of Maori seats because YOU WILL NEVER GET PEOPLE ELECTED TO HOLD THEM! Why do you think National wanted to get rid of the seats!? Because National has never and will never hold them, that’s seven seats in Parliament they will never be able to get their mits on and its irks them to no end.
So what do the right do. They make this a race issue. They say, “oh well, Maori should be able to get elected on their merits like everyone else.” Sorry, but Maori aren’t everyone else. We are Tangata Whenua, at the hands of the British our populations were decimated by pakeha introduced disease that we had no immunities against. Our lands were corruptly taken away.
However this is about Maori Seats on the Auckland Super City council. We need to contextualise this discussion. Are maori significant economic stakeholder via Ngati Whatua and Tainui holdings?Yes. Should there be a guaranteed representative to provide the voice for these stakeholders. Yes.
Majorities can never be expected to protect minority rights. Democracy is about protecting its most vulnerable. Much to the ire of the right.
Oh James, this may be an alien term to you but its called ethnicity. As hard as that is for you to understand, people have DIFFERENT ethnicity’s. Komata, I don’t know who you are talking for but it certainly isn’t me.
And please don’t attempt to tar all Maori with your particularly warped view of what Maori do. Ask Kingi Tuheitia or Rangatira Tumu Te Heuheu, and I don’t think THEY would agree with your assertions.
Ok we have serious disconect here. Kingi talks about all Maori but no one else is allowed to touch it.
Get a grip kingi, you only talk for you. We elect people to represent us, sometimes we get the person we want, sometimes we don’t. We call it democracy you call it racist because you don’t get a free pass.
The fish you’re peddling smells a bit off frankly.
Komata, frankly I have difficulty believing it is that bad but then I am not a direct participant in that part of life.
My parents and wider family raised me with an expectation that I would need to work hard, get educated and make my own way. They felt that the best gift they could give me was an education – certainly I was right not to expect a fortune to be left behind.
But I have assisted staff members to create secret bank accounts into which some pay might be diverted for the kids uniforms and groceries as the pay packet was snatched at the factory gate on payday and I have taken bruised and battered wives for medical treatment the day after payday so have witnessed the effects of how anything can be fixed with a good bashing. (sarc) Once Were Warriors in reality. BTW I’m sure Alan Duff was using it to try and bring the worst of human behabviour into the light but it seems to have turned into some sort of twisted badge of courage – how did that happen?
As racist and bigoted as some of my comments may have seemed to you, I am only reflecting back to you how this whole thing is coming across to those who are not spritually committed. NZ has long espoused the seperation of church and state and in the widest sense of church we see no place for spirituality in our political governance. And it is hard not to see a strong element of spirituality mixed up in the representation issue or is that just another way of clouding the matter in fog and avoiding the hard questions.
MY credibility is completely intact. You miss my point, what I am saying is that simply because one person who is asian, or one person who is Maori succeeds, can’t in of itself be used as an argument to say well therefore ALL Maori’s and Asians should therefore succeed because this doesn’t take into account circumstances, or the individuals context.
In NEW ZEALAND however the facts show that Maori on average are the most disadvantaged in our society. That is the point. I don’t see how me saying there are different ethnicities is contradicting my point that earlier that by using one example to represent a whole is fallacious when all the stats show Maori in this country are worse off.
Kingi – and the point that you are failing to grasp is that it will be individual Maori who improve things, one person at a time – not government, not a hui, not some maori aristocracy born to rule and certainly not people with a pecuniary interest in “race” relations.
In NEW ZEALAND however the facts show that Maori on average are the most disadvantaged in our society. That is the point. I don’t see how me saying there are different ethnicities is contradicting my point that earlier that by using one example to represent a whole is fallacious when all the stats show Maori in this country are worse off.
Well that’s a fallacious argument. You’re using aggregated statistics to argue that all Maori in “this country” are worse off. But then you breathlessly decry those who lump “all Maori” into one basket. You should try stand-up comedy sometime.
Sure Brian, but its about giving Maori the OPPORTUNITIES TO DO THAT.
The opportunities are there. Please show me where the opportunity to read a book is not given to Maori. Or the opportunity to try to end the day knowing more stuff than you started the day knowing. Or to have ambition to be better tomorrow than you were today?
While you believe that your life is being held back by forces outside your control you will never have any control of your own.
Claims of Maori success overseas and Asian success in NZ made in this thread are entirely anecdotal. Does anyone actually have hard statistics which would enable valid comparisons with the countries of origin? Furthermore, people who choose to leave a country for another are by that very act a self-selected group who may well be significantly different in other ways from those who stay behind. So, Patrick/Reid’s questions, while ones we should try to answer, might not have the answers some people expect.
Of course, the above reservations in no way validate Kingi’s notions that his ancestry guarantees him automatic rights of representation others don’t have, that he can treat Maoris as an undifferentiated group when it suits his argument and exceptional individuals when it doesn’t suit, his highly arguable Treaty interpretations, his willingness to lump all Pakehas together, and his refusal to acknowledge that Pakehas have voted for non-Paheka candidates.
If his concern is for poverty, then, as others on this thread have pointed out, this is not an exclusively Maori problem and guaranteed Maori representation on the super-city council is unlikely to solve the Maori component of this problem. My unreliable recollection of 20 year old statistics is that the majority of poor NZers are not Maori.
issues? I have said the what they are numerous times.
They are the fact that across every socio-economic indicator, from life expectancy, to education, to healthcare, to household income, Maori are worse off.
Now you will all come back as you always have to say, well if they “tried harder” then they wouldn’t be so bad off. However this is based upon the inane belief that we live in an equitable society where every has access to exactly the same opportunities. Unfortunately we DON’T. So in order to make society more equitable, we have affirmative action to give those at the bottom the opportunity to succeed.
So then Kingi – you are bascailly parroting the left wing play book, chapter and verse.
Tell me how Maori dont have equal opportunity to say, grow fresh veges for themselves if they can’t afford supermarket prices (most poor Maori in my city live in houses with dirty great sections). Education – it is free. Sit in a class and listen to the teacher. Why are so many Maori kids not listening to their teachers (60% Maori, 40% non-Maori kids coming out of secondary school abject failures), Life expectancy – stop smoking and eating crap food (especially the first bit – maori smoke as a proportion far more than non-Maori). The list goes on – individual Maori have to take the initiaitve as individuals.
If a smoking, chops and spuds eating, non-book-reading maori were to say, stop smoking, eat more balanced diet and perhaps go to the library then perhaps that person’s kids might think – hey, if it is good enough for Mum (or Dad).
Affirmative action has never helped any group better themselves. How about at least one example of how an entire people have been lifted out of poverty, bad socio-ecnomic indicators etc by affirmative action. Doesn’t happen. It encourages dependence and give a person someone/thing to blame when life goes against them.
So in order to make society more equitable, we have affirmative action to give those at the bottom the opportunity to succeed.
You’ve really dug yourself into a six-foot hole. You say “opportunity to succeed” but you’re openly advocating a rigged poll that guarantees a successful outcome for Maori. If your real concern is the poverty statistics, as you claim, then what you’re really arguing is that the poor should have guaranteed political representation (in addition to the same guaranteed voting right that everyone else has). But, as Kiwi Dave has so rightly pointed out, poverty is not an exclusively Maori problem. So why do you try to defend preferential political representation for Maori on this tenuous basis?
I’ll hand back your shovel if you promise to stop digging.
Lets be honest, the treaty is an impediment to modern New Zealand moving forward. The sooner the whole thing is closed down and it becomes a nice warm fuzzy the better. It seems however those in the grievance industry don’t want the giving to stop.
“Oh James, this may be an alien term to you but its called ethnicity. As hard as that is for you to understand, people have DIFFERENT ethnicity’s. Komata, I don’t know who you are talking for but it certainly isn’t me.”
An ethnicty is still not an existing entity….which as only individual human beings are means only those individuals have rights…not your non existent abstraction ‘Maori”.
As others have said you are all over the place with your argument……
Kingi, respect for commenting on this thread and sticking to your guns.
Picking up on your comments about “across every socio-economic indicator, from life expectancy, to education, to healthcare, to household income, Maori are worse off”. I don’t disagree with you, but it’s always struck me that there’s some uncomfortable truths beneath those indicators that Maori just don’t want to confront.
When you measure indicators like life expectancy, education, healthcare, household income (and I’d add crime as well) then you are comparing Maori levels of achievement with those of the “white males” you referred to last night.
The difficulty is though that first-world western levels of lifestyle come from first-world western culture, value and behaviours.
The huge problem facing Maori (and all other “first nations” people) is how to balance, on the one hand, achieving those first-world outcomes with, on the other hand, staying true to Maori culture, values and behaviours.
White males mastered agriculture, metallurgy, clothing, medicine, chemistry, writing, music, architecture, steam, the atom, electronics and a thousand other items I could list. Maori (and Polynesians) mastered fire. Maori culture is a tribal culture from the Stone Age. No tribal culture, and certainly no Stone Age culture, can deliver first-world lifestyles.
So Maori face a predicament of having to either isolate themselves in their own historical culture, at the expense of ghetto-ising their lives, or adopt Western culture and values that will deliver the socio-economic outcomes you referred to but at the expense of losing their history. There’s a really hard choice to be made about where on that continuum Maori want to be. I have never seen Maoridom openly grapple with that trade-off.
If you want western levels of life expectancy, education, healthcare etc then you need to become brown Westerners. But I suspect being brown Westerners isn’t acceptable to Maori, and so I believe Maori will always have less-than-first-world levels of achievement on those socio-economic indicators.
Virtual I simply can not agree with a viewpoint that states it is culture that determines a people’s success. You seem to believe that Maori need to give up their own culture in order for them to succeed! Are you serious? Are you really of the belief that one culture must prevail and that all others that are different must somehow give up their own identity and simply adopt another culture because it forms the majority? Dear lord! Heaven forbid diversity right? Heaven forbid other cultures and points of view that somehow come into conflict with western ways of thinking!
I am the first to say that some aspects of cultures, and I’m saying cultures in general not just maori culture, have their flaws. For example in Maoridom, the fact that men always sit on the paepae not Women, is something that I am opposed to in that it degrades Women to being somehow lower than men. However cultural shifts take time, change in general takes time.
Upon what basis do you claim that achieving first world outcomes and staying true to Maori culture is mutually exclusive? Why are they even within the same sphere’s? A poor Maori childs ability to succeed in life has less to do with Maori culture and more to do with whether or not he/she has the opportunities to succeed in life.
I can’t believe that you would so naively say something like “brown westerners.”
“They are the fact that across every socio-economic indicator, from life expectancy, to education, to healthcare, to household income, Maori are worse off.”
Kingi finally gives us the *issues*, so lets deal with these one by one:
- Maori have the same access to primary and secondary school as “everyone else”. Due to their lower average socioeconomic status, they are more elligable for state help in paying associated fees. One might argue that tribal Maori have less access to schools because they live away from major centres – where the educational facilities are better. This arguement is, however, flawed. Maori who choose to live in the middle of nowhere will inevitably get poorer access to education. Choosing to live in an area of your ancestors is a luxury. It has a price. The number of Maori who achieve qualifications in highschool is somewhat limited. However this is a matter of achievement, not opportunity. This probably is the biggest factor in low Maori involvement in tertiary education.
For tertiary education, one might argue that Maori are less likely to be able to afford tuition. However student loans and allowances, should alliviate the problem, at least to the point where it is no worse than any other cash strapped student. There are an enormous number of Maori only scholarships available, and many departments in our universities scale up your grades if you are Maori. It is not an exageration to say that if I was a Maori, I could have advanced to post graduate study without attending any lectures. As noted maori tend to struggle to get university entrence qualifications, this was delt with previously.
Obviously if Maori are more poorly educated they aren’t going to get as high paid jobs. But as I showed above, Maori have an easier time in the education system than non-maori. For some reason they just make foolish choices that lead to under-education. Also if you choose to live in the middle of nowhere, its going to be more difficult to find a job than in Auckland, let alone Wellington where you can live off a state job (the bureacrats love to employ Maori)
What are the common illnesses Maori suffer? Diabetes, Obesity, Smoking related diseases? All of these tend to be self inflicted. Many of the other illnesses result from a lack of taking freely available immunisation. Reduced life expectancy is just a follow on from all this. Interestingly there is a health budget for Maori. Is there a health budget for “everyone else”? No there is a general health budget, some of which is spent on Maori as well. So Maori are actually getting a larger share of the health budget than everyone else.
So what is the factor that is preventing Maori from doing as well as “everyone else”. Could it be that their is some mass conspiracy to keep them down, perpetrated by “the man”? Or could it be that a culture of contempt for education, admiration of brute strength and intimidation and focusing on skills no longer relevant in modern society could be to blame?
“However this is based upon the inane belief that we live in an equitable society where every has access to exactly the same opportunities. ”
Lets be frank here: either list the specific opportunities maori lose out to “everyone else” in or admit you are wrong and buzz off. I await your reply.
And don’t use the work equity. It is a weak and nebulous term.
Kingi, we will just need to agree to disagree then.
As I said in my earlier post, Western culture has invested thousands of years in achieving those standards of health, education etc that you refer to. They flow from Western values such as the value of the individual, the rational scientific approach to discovery, the constant striving to improve health and education. And so on and so on. Westerners didn’t get to the top of your socio-economic indicators by accident. We didn’t win the lottery. We worked at it for thousands of years and we shaped our culture and our values to continually achieve, reinforce and improve those indicators.
Maoridom is a tribal Stone Age culture. I don’t say that with malice, it is just a simple fact. Maori culture, in its fullness, will never deliver Western levels of achievement. It didn’t pre-1840 and it won’t today. You ask for examples … straight off the top of my head how about …
1. Education does not have the same prominence in Maori culture as it does in Western culture.
2. Communal ownership of property in Maoridom will never offer the same incentives for improvement as Western values of individual ownership.
3. Tribalism will never allow Maoridom to maximise the achievement of all of its people, in the same way that the Western values of individual opportunity and responsibility do.
4. Self-destructive lifestyle choices (smoking, drugs, alcoholism, obesity) are more tolerated in Maori culture than in Western culture.
That’s just a few.
FWIW, no I do not believe that all cultures must simply assimilate into the Western culture like some Borg collective from Star Trek. What I am saying though is that if you want to reach Western levels of socio-economic achievement then you need to adopt Western culture, values and behaviours.
I think virtualmark has a good point. The most successful culture will always dominate in the end. So how do Maori retain their unique culture, while still achieving first world success as individuals in their own right?
Kingi should also consider that your average european culture underwent enormous upheval to get to its current point: One obvious example is it no longer involves riding around on horse-back defending the code of chivalry. Guilds and their master craftsmen gave way to the industrial age. Superstition was thrown out in favour of science. Some asian cultures underwent even more rapid and significant changes. (Japan pretty much modelled its self after a european nation dot for dot, and changed its self so rapidly as to create enormous internal tension). The point is we are not saying Maori culture is anymore inferior than other cultures of a similar period were. Merely that it other cultures have already adapted themselves, and Maoridom has not. Interestingly europeans labeled Maori as “noble” savages during the contact period, because Maori were prepared to adapt themselves, accepting written language and technology. It is a shame that this attitude was somehow lost as it now represents the major barrier to future Maori prosperity.
Ngata, Carolle, Buck and Pomare were all realistic to grasp the fact that the only way that Maori could survive in what they correctly saw as an increasingly British (and consequently Westernised) world was through education, and this was something that they pushed assidiously. The Churches also saw this need and established various boarding schools, (Queen Vic’ Wesley etc) while the state created Native Schools for the same purpose. It was seen that education was crucial to the continued existence of Maori as a group, because otherwise they would become incresingly marginalised and ghetto-ised. Ngata especially pushed very hard for Ngati-Porou to get skilled as quickly as possible.
It was also recognised (and not patrionisingly either, but out of genuine concern) that Maori health and housing was crucial to their survivial and so special medical services evolved, (very) low interest loans were given (and given ONLY to Maori!!) and all in all a huge amount of effort went into providing as much assitance as possible to Maori.
At some pont however, a cancer set in. A lot (note that i ahve NOT said ALL) found it easier to sit around and do nothing – to do very little and to live off the state. I”m not sure when this started but would guess that it was around the late ’70′s when, for their own reasons which had nothing to actually do with Maori per se’, members of various left-wing political groups (yes, even the Labour party) started telling Maori that they were ‘owed’ something.
It should be noted that these actions were primarily aimed at finding away to get at Muldoon and the National Party – maori were just a very convenient lever to use.
Predictably, they sought-out played on Maori grievances and resurrected old, long-dead issues especially about land, to the point that many Maori were persuaded that it was their RIGHT’ to do what they wanted, and to say to the government (indeed any authority – including their own elders, hitherto respected) ‘Up Yours’, with the Treaty being a very useful point- of-reference and fall-back.
This appealed immensely to the younger Maori as it gave legality to their otherwise appalling (and illegal) behaviour and so the ball started rolling.
The hitherto-respected elders could not control the situation, whuich made it worse, and eventually gave up, leaving a new wave of oh so clever Maori radicals increasingly in charge. They of course had little resopect for authority, and this quickly spread throughout Maridom, effectively removing any respect for, or inclination to be obedient to the law, in any form.
It even became ‘cool to be dumb!!
The labour party pandered to this (to get votes – of course) and the situation worsened, to the point where it is now out of control, and all the education-based intents that Ngata et al tried so hard to implement have gone.
Maori cannot blame anyone elser for this debacle – they have done it all themselves, but blaming everyone else has become totaly acceptable and is so much easuer.
Maori DON’T have a grievance against anyone else, they DO have a grievance against their leaders, but until they wake up to that fact and start to do something about it, sadly, little is going to change.
And it is VERY notocable, that the present crop of leaders don’t intend to do anything about it – blaming everyone else is SOOO much easier.
So, Kingi what are YOU going to do to change things?
How are YOU going to improve Maori education – and bring your people into the ‘real’ (21st Century) world?
A lot of us will be very interested in your reply.
“Perhaps if it was your culture that was under threat”
What possible basis do you have for making this outrageous claim?
As a nation we go out of our way to make sure YOUR culture survives, hell, us tax payers even fund the survival of YOUR culture, had it been left to Maori you would not have any bloody culture at all.
Everywhere one turns we are confronted with Maori culture, indeed many are so arrogant and precious about Maori culture that they demand that the rest of the world takes it seriously, we are even so rude as to export Maori culture overseas and attempt to force it down the throats of the locals.
Rangi was walkin down the road the other day when he spotted his cuz Kingi comin the other way wearin only one jandle. “Phew cuz how ya goin man” said Rangi….”I see ya lost one of ya jandles”… ” Nah mate” said Kingi..”I found one”…
One thing is forgotten, Maori are special and deserve more than any other New Zealander.
We have to keep giving and get nothing back other than “you owe us”
Special seats are only for the lazy to sit on.
I owe Maori nothing more than I owe anyone, zilch.
There is a thing called “arse” get off it.
paradigm:What are the common illnesses Maori suffer? Diabetes, Obesity, Smoking related diseases? All of these tend to be self inflicted.
Not entirely. People with darker skins have problems making vitamin D and around the world we see a constant problem with indigenous and dark-skinned ethnic groups typically having vitamin D levels lower than caucasians. Low vitamin D levels are a risk factor for diabetes and heart disease and there’s even been speculation that low levels might be risk factor for obesity. The net result is that diabetes and heart disease are more common in these groups. Urbanisation, which tends to decrease vitamin D levels in populations, will make the problem even worse.
It’s always interesting to hear other interpretations regarding the intents of the Waitangi Treaty. Although I wasn’t present at the signing some 150 years ago, I have always been of the opinion the the main intent was to stop the wars.
I assume Kingi also wasn’t present at the signing, so his comments here are based on his personal beliefs from what he’s read or from what he’s been told.
So can someone please explain to me if this Treaty is between the Maori and The Crown, how did the Auckland City Council get involved?
I’m pretty sure there is no guaranteed voice in the Levin Council for one.
Another clarification I need – the water I use comes from rain falling on my roof. Where in this process do Maori fit in with Kingi’s ‘usage rights’ ?
I think what seems to be missed is the Libertarian related notions of autonomy and self-determination. What is relevant to Maori in this, is the idea that they are entitled by Te Tiriti to rangatiratanga, for Rangatira to protect and command iwi and to provide meaningful opportunities for Maori to express their autonomy and inherent right of self expression.
I know the obvious rebuttal is that some Maori have made meaningful ways of life in the “westernized” world – as a previous post alluded to with the success of Maori in Australia etc. But what remains is the individual’s right to autonomy and self-determination. Whilst the social structures of Maori are protected by The Treaty, it is the individual’s right to decide whether or not to uptake this claim right. And certainly it is possible, and indeed evidenced, that Maori descendants are able to create meaningful autonomous ways of life outside of Maoridom.
BUT!! It remains that the right to self-determination and autonomy, that so cherished by the Right (and me too, even though I’m a hearty Lefty ) happens to be contractually expressed in the Treaty – claims to “Rangatiratanga” and rights over taonga.
While social injustices are committed against many New Zealanders, of all ethnic compositions, there is a relevant justice claim made by individual Maori that is not able to be made by persons of other ethnic backgrounds. And that is the claim that oppressions of Maori cultural expression and rights over taonga and self-determination have been committed against them.
Note that this doesn’t exclude the justice claim that the poor and disadvantaged have to a better deal.
No point stooping and throwing mud Sonic. As long as we stick to our principles and continue to debate with sound reason and based on fact, the right will only ever be able to respond with personal attacks and racism.
They did it to Helen for years, and in spite of them she has gone on to achieve some truly fantastic things. Kia kaha e hoa. Kia kaha.
Kingi I wonder, are you doing what so many others seem to do in putting people in boxes, one box under the heading Maori ?
Because when it comes to political outlook I know Maori who range from further left than the Alliance party to raving Ayn Rand followers who believe that they should be the first on any lifeboat.
You seem to be painting with a very broad brush without getting down to what YOU believe Maori need.
So what do you believe all we Maori need ?
Just because you don’t consider the Treaty of Waitangi to be a substantive argument, doesn’t mean that I have not used facts to support my argument. Not once did I stoop to the level that some other people did.
Because I don’t agree with you Patrick Starr I am a disgrace? How so? Simply because your views are contrary to mine, I am suddenly a disgrace? How about instead of resulting to personal insults, you simply acknowledge there is a difference of opinion? Why do you resort to low grade personal insults. It only reflects badly on you Patrick Starr. Only badly on you.
“Just because you don’t consider the Treaty of Waitangi to be a substantive argument, doesn’t mean that I have not used facts to support my argument. Not once did I stoop to the level that some other people did.”
Yeh but Kingi, wot’s the point of being on a blog if all you do is repeat what you’ve already said without clarifying or disputing in response to the points others are making? You might as well have a conversation in the mirror.
Here’s a hint for next time. This is not question time with Margaret Wilson as the Speaker. In this forum, it’s polite and indeed expected, that you do address questions raised by others against the arguments you yourself have put forth. Otherwise don’t bother putting them. By “address the question” we don’t mean: repeat what you’ve already said in a slightly different way, at the same time ignoring completely the point made by the other person to whom you’re purportedly responding.
I do applaud the response you made a few moments ago on the other thread to one of my points, and I do hope you’ll adjust your response rate upward in future not just for my points but for all others as well.
And sonic, that poster wasn’t pretending to be defending a proposition, merely making a joke. And why not? But if you choose to do the former, then expect to be called.
Kingi – Your views not only reflect badly on maori, your views are the very reason maori do not achieve.
Yesterday @ 9.23 you said “I am the first to say we need to stop whinging about past injustice” yet you have done nothing BUT continue to do so!
I’ll tell you why Asians do so well in NZ. Because most of them come from a harsh environment with no special privileges, but more importantly NO welfare. They have an inherent hard work ethic, they don’t expect anything. You on the other hand continue to play the victim card with your hand out.
You further say @10.04 “Some of you seem to not know your history very well, there were severe and historic injustices committed”
FFS look what the chinese have gone through if you want to see injustices. Look what the japs did to chinese who are still alive today, not distant ancestors 130 years ago. ‘Victims’??? – you’re not even close. You’d do very well to look at their ethics and learn something
(and the reason maori do so well overseas is they are removed from your ‘victim’ indoctrination – and welfare)
Asian people have no relevance to this discussion. NO RELEVANCE.
Different culture, different history and in no way supporting your views. Are you Asian Patrick? This is not about victim indoctrination, its about honouring the Treaty. We have a treaty, asians don’t. Get over it. Talk about whinging, your hypocrisy is unbelievable.
Reid, whatever. I respond to points that are just repeated and that don’t take into account what I have already said. Your patronising posts serve no purpose but to show your own ignorance in ignoring what I have said over and over. How about taking a leaf out of your own book before preaching to others.
If this discussion is about problems with maori then Asian people as a comparison have EVERY RELEVANCE to it, however I notice you immediately identify your first two problems in your next para “Different culture” and “We have a treaty”
I’ll bet “Treaty” is said before “mum” and “uncle” as first words for those maori children that actually learn english these days. Your desire to maintain the status quo is extremely obvious, It keeps you sitting on your backsides whilst the free money keeps rolling in, and as I said to you very early in the piece, history will show the more maori been given over the past 15 years – the worse maori have become.
It is people like you who should get over it with your whining and hypocrisy, It is people like me that just keep having to pay for it
You are not just unbelievable.- you are sadly indoctrinated into that $$ gimme$$ victim attitude
(And no, whilst I’ve spent a bit of time there Im am certainly not asian)
“Asian people have no relevance to this discussion. NO RELEVANCE.”
As I pointed out above Kingi, in another 150 years time, Asian people are going to be highly relevent to your position. Through hard work and taking the opportunities that you seem to be unable to grasp, they will control a reasonable proportion of our economy i.e. businesses, property, education, money. Unfortunately for the future generations of Maori, these New Zealand Asians won’t feel any great moral obligation to hold Maori in any special light or accord you any race based privilege, regardless of your precious treaty.
I wonder why?
If you spend your whole life with a grudge on your sholder and a victim mentality, of course you will not see the opportunities that are in front of all our noses, regardless of culture or race.
Kingi, you say that Maori are denied opportunity.
That single statement alone is enough to consign you to the scrapheap of history.
The world moves on, every day, and every day you fall another step behind.
itsallapriori … I hadn’t realised your comments hadn’t been responded to. Looking back at what you said, I see you responded to one of my earlier posts …
Re Virtualmark’s question of Kingi: “just which part of the Treaty entitles Maori to special undemocratic representation in either local or central Government?”
- Answer: Kawanatanga/Rangatiratanga
As I understand it Kawanatanga was Henry Williams’ word for the sovereignty, or governorship, that Queen Victoria received through the treaty. Rangatiratanga was Henry Williams’ word for the authority the chiefs would retain over their people, lands, fisheries etc.
I think the chiefs in 1840 were pretty clear that Hobson had arrived to be the Governor, the kawana, and to exercise civil control over the settlors. They had petitioned the Queen for just such a Governor.
It strikes me that the question of the Supercity council, which is at the origin of this whole thread of comments, is the modern day equivalent of Hobson’s governorship. It’s all about civil control and governance of the population. The Treaty doesn’t give Maori a say in kawanatanga. That’s Hobson’s job. In fact, the Maori explicitly didn’t want that job. They wanted the Queen to come in and establish control over the white settlors and the emerging towns and districts. (Remember, pre-1840 NZ was basically lawless, with the Governor in NSW nominally in control but far too remote to exert any meaningful restraints on the settlors).
As I read the Treaty (which, to be fair, has had more interpretations than this thread has commenters) … Article 1 says the Crown, via Hobson as Governor, will set and enforce the rules and govern the towns, districts, farms etc. Meanwhile Article 2 says the Chiefs will continue to have authority over their lands and treasures, but not presumably over the towns and districts which they were quite happy to be shot of responsibility for.
I really don’t see how those underlying principles leave Maori with any wriggle room over wanting dedicated Maori seats in the Supercity. In the Treaty they were quite happy to sign over that responsibility to the white guy.
Yes, you are right insofar as you have outlined the responsibilities of te kawana, and were accurate in your pre-treaty history.
The question of the interrelatedness of kawanatanga and rangatiratanga is then posed. It seems as though rangatiratanga is nothing but lip-service without the kawanatanga recognizing and legitimizing their claims and concerns about any sort of governorship that can limit or change the context of their rangatiratanga.