A reader writes on pig farming
A reader sends this in:
Firstly though, I’d just like to point out the MASSIVE difference between dry sow stalls and farrowing crates.
The latter are used for only a 5-6 week period, generally a few days before giving birth, and around a month afterward. As you will read below, the primary purpose for these is to protect piglets prior to weaning. You can’t imagine the horror of finding a sow who has rolled on, and killed all of her newborns. These are incredibly large and heavy pigs, and quite honestly will squash anything smaller than a 10 week old pig like a pancake. I know because I’ve had to clean it up. Typically a sow will have around 1.5 pregnancies in a year, so on average will have around 9 weeks in a farrowing crate. It isn’t ideal, but better than the alternative.
Dry sow stalls are a totally different kettle of fish. These all sows are kept in all the time (hence the term, dry) I’ll take the opportunity now to tell you that neither of our farms have them – one is free range, the other is more intensive but contains a large, well ventilated dry sow shed, with plenty of straw and plenty of room. If you want to see an example, try googling “ecoshelter”. I won’t defend dry sow stalls, as it is difficult to do so. I don’t support their use. There are other options, even on a relatively intensive farming operation. However, the Pork Board are right to say you cannot just ban overnight. What you need is a period of phasing them out – ten years perhaps. That may seem like a long time, but the costs are incredibly high.
My main concern about groups like SAFE etc, is that they are unable to differentiate between farrowing crates, and dry sow stalls. I hope I have managed to explain the difference to you above (and below).
The other thing I would note is the TVNZ piece. Two points about Mike King’s “disgust”. Firstly – yes the pigs were screaming. Why? It was the middle of the night or early morning. The pigs had been left alone and were suddenly woken by human activity. What does this usually mean for them? Quite simply – feeding time. Free range pigs have EXACTLY the same reaction. If King and his companions ahd fed the pigs the screaming would have stopped. Guarantee it. Secondly – the chewing of bars and frothing of the mouth? Again, it is completely standard across all pigs. They chew things. Free range pigs it’ll be tree branches etc, for pigs in stalls or crates it’ll be bars. And yes, they froth. Christ, you should see them when they mate!
I find the last paragraph very interesting.
On a related note this video is referred to in this story at news.com.au about the cull of pigs in Egypt in response to swine flu. I warn you the video is highly sickening and not for the faint hearted.
May 19th, 2009 at 9:36 am
“However, the Pork Board are right to say you cannot just ban overnight. What you need is a period of phasing them out – ten years perhaps. That may seem like a long time, but the costs are incredibly high.”
If it is determined that the practice is inhumane (and I wait for more expert opinion than mine, on that) then what has cost got to do with it? It should become illegal, instantly.
After all the mob can’t use economic loss as an excuse for phasing out dog fighting, so why should that defense apply to the Pork Board … if it is inhumane.
May 19th, 2009 at 9:36 am
Indeed, although the mental image of pigs mating is not something I really needed! The screaming bit was also very powerful. Elements of staging for effect really. And an example of why I donate to the SPCA but not SAFE.
May 19th, 2009 at 9:36 am
Funny how Hans Freak and the other hollow-cheeked jaundiced idiots from SAFE aren’t going to tell MAF where the farm is until today. What’s with that? Off to make a bacon sandwich. I’m hungry for pork….
May 19th, 2009 at 9:46 am
As I suspected.
The program is total deceit.
Lies and propaganda.
Just so typical of NZ’s appallingly dysfunctional mainstream media.
Shut TVNZ down now.
May 19th, 2009 at 9:49 am
Perhaps the government could fortify bread so we don’t have to eat pigs anymore.
May 19th, 2009 at 9:51 am
Your membership to the Green Party has been validated. Please advance to the communist circle. It should be easily apparent what the overnight elimination of jobs, closing of factories and removal of product would do to the economy and industries associated with raising pigs. “Inhumane” is not an argument in itself. Economies are too complex for that. Next you’ll be asking us to imagine that we are pigs and how would we like it.
Rule one of emotional media stories: never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
May 19th, 2009 at 9:54 am
As I blogged today — the One News 6pm Sunday edition has become a promo for the Sunday program and the Monday evening bulletin has become a chance to engage in further self-promotion by two rounds of back-patting (one on the news, the other on CloseUp) by simply rehashing the same stuff all over again.
Surely there was more important news in the world on Monday evening than the fact that a comedian/frontman has turned on his pig-farming overlords?
Were we not concerned/interested in the conflict in Sri Lanka? How about the fact that Pakistan seems to be amassing a fairly sizeable nuclear arsenal? Rapes and murders here in NZ?
No… we got “pigs” — solely because it was a great chance to regurgitate the tired material that had already been thoroughly aired the night before.
News? Yeah, right!
May 19th, 2009 at 9:58 am
No pork – cages inhumane – banned! overnight.
No fish – nets/hooks catch dolphins and other unwanted species – banned! ovenight.
No beef – emission of CO2, pollutes waterways, inhumane – banned! overnight.
No chicken – cages too small, inhumane – banned! overnight.
What the fuck are you emo’s going to eat? Oh right, rice noodle and mung beans.
May 19th, 2009 at 9:59 am
” “Inhumane” is not an argument in itself. Economies are too complex for that.”
Morals are a mere commodity? Surely not! I am shocked
To recap an old story:
A fellow approaches an attractive girl and says “would you sleep with me for a million dollars?” and she says “Well, sure!” Then he says “Would you sleep with me for a dollar?” and she says “Certainly not! What do you think I am?” and he says “We already know what you are. We’re just haggling about the price.”
May 19th, 2009 at 10:06 am
There is a case for confinement of sows during and shortly after farrowing on the grounds of the welfare of the piglets. But it is only necessary for about 3 days, not the 5-6 week period suggested by your reader DPF.
That is reflected in Green Party policy:
Note that it also talks about a phase-out, not an immediate ban which would be impracticable.
May 19th, 2009 at 10:10 am
Oh yes Toad.
This is the same bullshit the Greens have been peddling for years, you “milk” the animal welfare vote then spend the next nine years as the lap dogs of the Labour party.
YOU could have done something about this, YOU could have pressured Labour into banning this cruel and disgusting practice yet YOU did nothing.
An immediate ban is practicable and it should be implemented today, it is a bit bloody rich for the Greens to jump on this bandwagon now and so typical of the deceitful nature of the Greens.
May 19th, 2009 at 10:11 am
May 19th, 2009 at 10:13 am
Your cynicism says morals are not for sale, but that they are for sale. Yes, that is my reasoning too. When you own a pet pig you can have it running throughout your house and tuck it in at night with a kiss. Once you start feeding a nation though, you’ll have to make some adjustments to that plan.
May 19th, 2009 at 10:15 am
“I find the last paragraph very interesting.”
Because you would rather not think about the fact that the political party you have supported for most of your life cares not one whit for animal welfare.
May 19th, 2009 at 10:18 am
Ignoring somewhat the vastly greater efficiency of land use for vegetable food production than for pig meat.
You’re not talking about feeding a nation, you’re talking about providing a luxury food.
May 19th, 2009 at 10:20 am
radar: “Because you would rather not think about the fact that the political party you have supported for most of your life cares not one whit for animal welfare.”
Well, that is a very cheap shot considering that the party I assume you support was in government for a decade and did absolutely nothing about the problem. What does that say about what Labour thinks of animal welfare?
May 19th, 2009 at 10:36 am
When will you stop talking shit, Ryan. Are cigars a luxury food? Is coffee a luxury food? And have you any idea the scale of economy of both those industries and their “inhumane” practices? Jesus wept. You’d better give up the cigars, Ryan, or you’d be a hypocrite.
May 19th, 2009 at 10:39 am
“Well, that is a very cheap shot”
All he’s ever got.
The entire National Party and everyone who voted for them are animal hating abusers of livestock.
They don’t think like Radar, the good little half educated numb brained commie, so they have to be evil.
May 19th, 2009 at 10:40 am
You attempted to justify the treatment of the pigs with the noble cause of “feeding a nation”. I simply pointed out that pigs are not only unnecessary to feed the nation, but that other uses of land would be more efficient at feeding the nation.
Have you decided to stop talking about “feeding a nation” and instead talk about cigars and coffee?
May 19th, 2009 at 10:40 am
and this is based on how many years pig farming experience?
May 19th, 2009 at 10:43 am
Next you’ll be saying that waterboarding is not torture.
May 19th, 2009 at 10:49 am
YOU could have done something about this, YOU could have pressured Labour into banning this cruel and disgusting practice yet YOU did nothing.
Hear bloody hear!
May 19th, 2009 at 10:55 am
And the pork people say that the price of pork would rise by $2 if their cruel practices are stopped. Typical fear mongering.
May 19th, 2009 at 11:12 am
I’m considering doing a doco on the disgraceful treatment of bean sprouts. Poor bastards – plucked before their prime. Sometimes, if the iPod is turned off, I can hear them screaming…
May 19th, 2009 at 11:29 am
He Man
Given the way other meat prices have risen over the last 12 months, especially chicken – which has just about doubled – $2 per beast wouldn’t seem too much of a price to pay.
May 19th, 2009 at 11:31 am
“And the pork people say that the price of pork would rise by $2 if their cruel practices are stopped. Typical fear mongering.”
Linky?
May 19th, 2009 at 11:32 am
Buggerlugs – that is right – just because you can’t hear them screaming doesn’t mean they aren’t.
We had pigs on the farm and they made such a racket when they wanted food. They lived mostly under a huge stand of gums trees. Were happy as larry and still screamed their head’s off when they got excited.
May 19th, 2009 at 11:34 am
Your response implies you’ve understood the concepts in my argument, Ryan, but you then clumsily imitate ignorance of those concepts in the same sentence. There is nothing noble about feeding a nation, and you know that I have not implied that. All the animal rights in the world will not escape the reality that people will eat meat. Since you smoke and drink coffee, both activites that are “luxury foods”, and think others should give up “luxury foods” or that they should be banned overnight, why not stop using them yourself? You can’t, so don’t ask the rest of us to become vegans overnight.
You are just another midget intellectual argue-any-point-just-to-argue ingenuine hypocrite.
May 19th, 2009 at 11:35 am
The majority of pig farming in NZ is free range. SAFE haven’t mentioned this fact in any statement to date.
Here in Canterbury examples of free range pig farming can be easily seen from major road sides and some are on a quite large scale. Nothing is hidden. A classic example for instance is one on the highway between Timaru and Pleasant Point easily seen from the road.
Secondly SAFE itself openly links itself to the infamous organization PETA. Both organizations consider animal farming in general to be ‘exploitation’. That includes not only farming for meat but also for animal products such as milk and wool. Milking a cow and shearing a sheep is considered ‘exploitation’ by them.
Thirdly in a national radio interview this morning Mr Hans Kriek, the SAFE spokesperson on this stated he didn’t actually know how long the pigs shown in the footage had been in crates.
Later in the interview Han’s let his mask slip and revealed the real aim of SAFE in this when he gleefully said that NZ pork had “signed the industry’s death warrant” by saying SAFE could have a look at any pig farm at any time.
SAFE’s real aim is to end livestock farming in NZ. They wish to impose their extremist viewpoint on the rest of society. Once this is understood then the media manipulation starts to become very clear.
May 19th, 2009 at 11:41 am
Re the statement that “you cannot just ban overnight. What you need is a period of phasing them out – ten years perhaps…” POLITICIANS….WHY HAVENT WE BEEN DOING SO?
Issues relating to bad pig ‘farming’ practises were debated globally more than a decade ago and one example of positive outcomes of that debate is that it has been illegal to confine sows in stalls and tethers in the UK since 1 Jan 1999. If only we had followed the UK example ten years ago….
Get proactive by changing animal husbandry practises NOW. And at the retail end too! There is no need to become a vegetarian or vegan – we still love our bacon and pork and buy organic free range Havoc pork and bacon at the local farmer’s market – its definitely affordable, tastes great, is a quality product. The government should be using Havoc and similar farms as a tried and true model for effective humane pig farming now!
Stop listening to the reactive profit-mongering “poor me’ type pig farmers who have failed to grasp that we now live in the 21st century and outmoded abusive practises belong in the ‘dark ages’ of pig husbandry exposed last century.
May 19th, 2009 at 11:46 am
When the industry said the price for getting rid of sow stalls would be $2 a kg that seems quite cheap really to do what should be seen as right. I have fewer issues with chickens and the like cause they are a pretty stupid animal but I understand that pigs are up there with dogs on the iq stakes, which would likely put them ahead of Redbaiter…..
Seriously though it doesn’t seem too big of a price for the withdrawal of them from use if it is done in a way which is sensible, as per the reader if things are properly determined (i.e. difference between a sow stall and a dry sow shed)
I am interested to know what the alternative is to the farrowing thing is from someone in the industry, as I don’t know. I.e. do you just use them for pigs in a sow shed and not free range or do you use it for all? And if for all how did they bread before the use of them? Just I don’t understand the specifics there, although the idea of a crushed pig is less than ideal.
May 19th, 2009 at 11:51 am
Goodgod,
You said:
“When you own a pet pig you can have it running throughout your house and tuck it in at night with a kiss. Once you start feeding a nation though, you’ll have to make some adjustments to that plan.”
You were saying so as part of a justification of the treatment of pigs in pig farming. For it to be any kind of argument, you had to have been implying that it’s a choice between people going hungry or pigs being treated like this – the lesser of two evils.
I pointed out that you were wrong about that. It is not a choice between people going hungry or pigs being treated like this. It is not a matter of “when you start feeding a nation” you have to make some compromises regarding the humane treatment of animals. In fact, if it was a question of what compromises to make “when you start feeding a nation”, pig farming is an inefficient use of land compared to crop growing.
Do you see? Your justification was flawed, and I pointed that out. That’s all. Only brought up “noble” because you were trying to justify the treatment of pigs with a greater good (or lesser evil). And I only brought up luxuries because pig meat is a luxury in that it’s not a choice between pig farming and the nation going hungry.
I mean, if you can find where I said, “Luxuries are bad because they’re luxuries,” I’ll be very surprised and apologise.
But the fact is, I said nothing of the sort, and you’re just avoiding my point, which is that you were wrong about using “feeding the nation” as a justification for the treatment of pigs in pig farming.
May 19th, 2009 at 11:52 am
And there’s no need to lower yourself to personal insults, Goodgod. Just address my points – the points I actually made, rather than points I didn’t make.
May 19th, 2009 at 11:53 am
I’d be curious to know why you think they don’t market it as that then?
May 19th, 2009 at 12:02 pm
they’re not as cute as chickens, stephen.
May 19th, 2009 at 12:24 pm
stephen (2619) Vote: 0 0 Says:
May 19th, 2009 at 11:53 am
The majority of pig farming in NZ is free range
I’d be curious to know why you think they don’t market it as that then?
Well Stephen its never been that much of an issue before. As an example sheep and beef farmers don’t often advertise their product as Free Range even though 100% of NZ lamb and beef is. Emu farmers don’t either even though again 100% of their product is. The same with venison. Farmers have simply assumed most people know that and are familiar with NZ farming practices.
This is a clear failure of marketing on the international market. While in NZ now that NZ farmers are being attacked by various extremist lobby groups which exploit the lamentable growing ignorance of the NZ urban population about modern farming practices farmers will have to spend increasing amounts of money getting the truth out in order to defend themselves from extremist organizations which in some cases receive public money. SAFE in the past has received support from the Auckland City Council, the Christchurch City Council and the Lottery Discretionary Fund.
Curiously SAFE has also received support from some media organizations such as the TV3 Network and Prime Television.
Hmmm…..not just reporting the news..but making it?
May 19th, 2009 at 12:24 pm
Just to keep things in perspective, a 2kg leg of pork for roasting will increase in price by 15% if it goes up by $2.00 a kilo. It would be nearly $35 for a single leg – that certainly outprices a pork roast for many kiwis.
May 19th, 2009 at 12:26 pm
“The majority of pig farming in NZ is free range”
“I’d be curious to know why you think they don’t market it as that then?”
Only thing I could find in a quick google was this – which said 50% of NZ pigs are free range. Thats allot higher than I think the general population knows – should definitely be marketed more. The only place I know you can get it from and is said so is this dude at the markets who sells it (Britomart and La Cigal ones) which is where we got our christmas ham from, tasted fricken awesome to.
Link was here http://www.rd1.com/web/content?in_section=10&in_item=967&in_page=1926
But the whole lack of marketing is definitely an issue – quite likely the supermarkets are the ones with the power in that regard though and less so the farmers.
May 19th, 2009 at 12:34 pm
Has been touched upon but yet again this is piss poor reporting. It seems that if you cry wolf first and loud enough it will be guaranteed news without any sense of fact checking and, at best, a few days later there might be a story buried between the weather and business news along the lines that something might have been a bit exaggerated. It is ridiculous and it does a disservice to the public.
May 19th, 2009 at 12:36 pm
I’m not buying anything that isn’t marked free range. The rest of the pork producers, NZ or otherwise, can go f**k themselves.
C’mon, would you raise your dog or cat in such conditions? Why, then, a pig?
May 19th, 2009 at 12:39 pm
If it is in fact 50%, someone is missing a massive opportunity (though the SPCA might not necessarily ‘acredit’ them). I’d be surprised if most people were not aware that pigs were intensively farmed indoors (without thinking about whether it’s ‘nice’ or not), but there’s obviously a market for it with companies like ‘Freedom Farms’ and he like in most supermarkets.
May 19th, 2009 at 12:56 pm
AFAIK more than half of the pork products sold in New Zealand are imported – we bring in a lot of pork from Canada in particular.
Anyone know just what percentage of NZ’s pork consumption is from local Kiwi farms? And anyone know what Canadian pig farming practices are? Having been through a Canadian winter I figure their pigs have to spend at least 4-5 months every year inside … perhaps in crates?
May 19th, 2009 at 12:59 pm
I’m not going to stop eating meat. But I would like to think the animals have the best life possible before they are killed and eaten though. Does this make me a shocking leftie hypocrite?
What is the purpose of the Egyptian pig cull video as a PS to a story about NZ pig farming? Justification a la it’s not so bad in NZ after all, compared to what johnny foreigner does?
May 19th, 2009 at 1:00 pm
I’d really recommend people go to SAFE’s pig campaign website and understand the situation better: http://lovepigs.org.nz/Pigs-in-New-Zealand/
May 19th, 2009 at 1:02 pm
For those who missed the Sunday segment with Mike King – here’s the link: http://tvnz.co.nz/sunday-news/sunday-may-17-comic-tackles-pig-welfare-2741960/video
May 19th, 2009 at 1:13 pm
I’d really recommend a bacon sandwich.
May 19th, 2009 at 1:14 pm
Rebel – thanks for the links. Comparing the SAFE website content to DPF’s reader, the contention around farrowing crates seems to me to be around whether its benefits (reducing fatal crushing of piglets by sow) is a satisfactory justification for the ill health it causes the sow.
I notice the SAFE website does not reference the “experts” it mentions in support of its points – is this an oversight?
Neither does DPF’s reader cite any references that sow behaviour in stalls is harmless. However his point that “My main concern about groups like SAFE etc, is that they are unable to differentiate between farrowing crates, and dry sow stalls” is clearly wrong, by inspection of the SAFE website.
(PS: Just quietly though – I think you’ll find that the activist’s input is not normally required for the traditional kiwiblog villification of an activist. )
May 19th, 2009 at 1:29 pm
Hey Ratbiter – unfortunately I don’t know the experts referred to on the website but if you really want to find out you can contact Nichola – she’s SAFE’s education officer (who is Hans’ wife, SAFE’s campaign director who has been on the news).
I don’t know if you’re in Auckland or not but SAFE’s shop at St Kevin’s arcade on K Road has a lot of books available by scientists about animal rights and welfare who are quite qualified on the subject, or if you can’t afford them you can lend them from SAFE’s office on Great North Road, near the intersection just before K Road.
Regarding the difference between permanent sow crates and farrowing – see the following articles which summarises the situation that I’ve just scanned and uploaded on to my site:
http://geocities.com/betterisonehope/Pigs01.jpg
http://geocities.com/betterisonehope/Pigs02.jpg
http://geocities.com/betterisonehope/Pigs03.jpg
May 19th, 2009 at 1:29 pm
virtualmark,
we imported almost 2600 tonnes of pork in March 2009 alone. This represents about 43% of our consumption.
http://www.nzpork.co.nz/Portals/NZPib/Documents/Publications/March%202009%20Imports%20Report.pdf
May 19th, 2009 at 1:30 pm
P.S. Nichola’s address is nichola@safe.org.nz.
May 19th, 2009 at 1:46 pm
Be nice to your food!
May 19th, 2009 at 2:00 pm
I think now would be a good time to be Jewish
May 19th, 2009 at 2:19 pm
Peter said <i I’m not buying anything that isn’t marked free range. The rest of the pork producers, NZ or otherwise, can go f**k themselves.
Good on you, not sure if I get quite as vitriolic about the rest of them but good on you for putting your wallet where your heart is. And frankly that is the only way that this is going to change in the long term.
Although SAFE’s agenda is to stop people eating meat altogether and as someone noted recently if we weren’t meant to eat animals they wouldn’t be made of meat!
May 19th, 2009 at 2:22 pm
What are you made of GPT1?
May 19th, 2009 at 2:26 pm
Well past my prime Rebel Heart…
May 19th, 2009 at 2:33 pm
I’m made of meat, Greg. Can you eat me?
May 19th, 2009 at 2:52 pm
Quit acting like you’re thick as pigshit, Ryan. People will not go hungry from not eating pork and that was never my point. Neither will they go hungry from not having coffee, or tobacco, and those industries have “inhumane” aspects also. Why don’t you have the courage of your convictions and do your part and cease using them instead of picking and choosing what everyone will use?
Pork may well be a luxury food, but the industry exists now and any urge to radically regulate it needs the kind of big picture thinking you are too scared to do. You treat this argument like the debate is should we start farming pigs, rather than what it is – should we tear apart a part of the economy. Realities, Ryan. When you go into business there are realities of scale. You can’t run an efficient pig farm in your lounge.
Not everyone wants to be a vegan, or have their choices controlled by an authoritarian government that thinks it can mix theoretical rights with real life realties. Your argument of inefficiency is absurd. Feeding the population by stamping out protein tablets for distribution from a factory would be a more efficient use of land, but bad choice for health. I recall you stating that lettuce is a good option for growing children during the tuck shop pie debate. You’re dreaming. Utterly dreaming and this time is no different.
Why do I have to retell these points? Because you’re a contentious communist and proven hypocrite. Don’t whine like a girl about getting personal. You can’t hide behind that. You can’t hide your fear behind your politics. You often push every discussion topic through your theoretical seive and turn out the same unexamined immature mush. Shut up and save your brain power for doing something practical, out in the real world, and you might actually learn something about life. You’ll probably find that many people have no time for the self destructive theories you pedal and that communism won’t solve everything after all. No one is going to offer control of their lives over to you and your type just so you can avoid facing reality. Best of luck with your health living on caffiene, nicotine and lettuce.
May 19th, 2009 at 3:00 pm
Good God good god, way to misrepresent and strawmatise veganism:
http://www.geocities.com/betterisonehope/VegetarianNutritionOverview01.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/betterisonehope/VegetarianNutritionOverview02.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/betterisonehope/VegetarianNutritionProtein01.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/betterisonehope/VegetarianNutritionProtein02.jpg
May 19th, 2009 at 3:12 pm
Ryan Sproull said: “I’m made of meat, Greg. Can you eat me?”
Was this an invitation?
Goodgod claims: “You can’t run an efficient pig farm in your lounge”
but must surely have have heard of the Osbournes!
This hog business is rattling some cages!
May 19th, 2009 at 3:30 pm
For some pork facts, not porkies read the Te Ara: Encyclopedia of NZ online entry on pig farming:
http://www.teara.govt.nz/TheSettledLandscape/AnimalFarming/PigsAndThePorkIndustry/3/en
It also has a little film clip from Mr Mike King that will be there forever since its now part of the historical record.
May 19th, 2009 at 3:39 pm
Opps, forgot to put in NZ pork’s own response to the issue:
http://www.pork.co.nz/Portals/0/Documents/Media%20Releases/2009-may-19-nzpork-information-on-sunday-programme.pdf
May 19th, 2009 at 3:44 pm
I have worked on a pig farm. Pigs can make more noise than imagined when excited,playing, happy or thinking of food.
Crowding is a small problem whether caged or not pigs expand to take up the space allotted.
Their lives are short: fresh pork comes from 55kg pigs and bacon from 70-100kg. They can eat 1.6kgs a day and put on 1.
They scrap a bit with each other and chew. Confinement can stop injury.
Sows have a more charmed live and may live to over 3 producing some 22 piglets each per annum. Boars may be kept, but only the first time sows may get their attention: AI being the rule. The fate of the sows will ultimately be sausage meat and the boars, blood and bone meal.
This is meat production. Chickens get it worse, because, confined as they must be, severe pecking occurs. Surprisingly, closely stocked pigs don’t behave much differently from others: they naturally keep close and sleep on top of each other. Perhaps we could enrich their lives by putting a greenie, vegan or other protestor in the feedlot with them as a play toy.
May 19th, 2009 at 3:47 pm
Seriously some of you need to learn that calling someone a communist does not win an argument – it just makes you look like you are stuck in the 60s. Its like calling someone a facist on a left leaning blog, i.e. ‘Goodwins Law’.
Besides saying something shouldnt be done due to an ethical view point is just as much the right as the left’s domain. See all matters of controversal biological research here.
May 19th, 2009 at 4:26 pm
Then what was your point in saying: “When you own a pet pig you can have it running throughout your house and tuck it in at night with a kiss. Once you start feeding a nation though, you’ll have to make some adjustments to that plan.”
If you weren’t saying that one has to compromise on the treatment of animals “once you start feeding a nation”, what could you possibly have been saying?
I haven’t said anything about picking and choosing what everyone will use. This is a recurring theme, you responding to points I never made. What I said was that you were wrong to use “once you start feeding a nation” as a justification of inhumane treatment of pigs.
This argument is entirely about your justification of the inhumane treatment of pigs by referring to the necessities that arise “once you start feeding a nation”. I would respond to your digressions, but I’m afraid it would further allow you to avoid explaining your statement:
“When you own a pet pig you can have it running throughout your house and tuck it in at night with a kiss. Once you start feeding a nation though, you’ll have to make some adjustments to that plan.”
I only brought up efficiency because you seemed to be justifying the inhumane treatment of pigs by referring to the necessities that arise “once you start feeding a nation”. If you explain how you could possibly mean anything else by the following, efficiency wouldn’t be an issue:
“When you own a pet pig you can have it running throughout your house and tuck it in at night with a kiss. Once you start feeding a nation though, you’ll have to make some adjustments to that plan.”
No doubt. Fortunately, I said nothing of the sort.
Still irrelevant.
Goodgod, I’m not a communist, I never asked for control of anyone’s lives and I wasn’t hiding or whining. I was just suggesting that people can have a discussion without lowering themselves to personal insults. I can certainly keep talking to you while you punctuate your comments with angry outbursts – it just means more irrelevant things to ignore.
Now, I will ask again:
What could you possibly have meant by…
“When you own a pet pig you can have it running throughout your house and tuck it in at night with a kiss. Once you start feeding a nation though, you’ll have to make some adjustments to that plan.”
…if not justifying the inhumane treatment of pigs in pig farming by referring to necessities that arise “once you start feeding a nation”?
May 19th, 2009 at 4:41 pm
And, Goodgod, here is the thread about tuck shop:
http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/04/thank_you_to_the_greens.html
The word “lettuce” appears nowhere in the thread.
May 19th, 2009 at 5:06 pm
Well I’m off to do whatever I always do whenever ignorant self-publicising morons attack the pork industry – go buy me a giant packet of bacon and fry the bejeezus out of it.
May 19th, 2009 at 5:08 pm
I’m not really surprised to see so many people defending animal cruelty on this blog. It’s par for the course in right wing politics to mock anyone who thinks animals shouldn’t be tortured while alive.
It is a shame that the Labour Party did absolutely nothing about the issue for nine years, but Helen was all talk on everything anyway.
The Greens are the only party who will do something about this.
And it’s a bit rich for our inept and clueless “Minister of Agriculture” to suggest that SAFE doesn’t care about animal welfare. They have been fighting against animal cruelty in New Zealand for decades, while he was shown a video and claimed he was unaware it was going on. Is this the calibre of Minister the National Party thinks the people of New Zealand deserve?
May 19th, 2009 at 5:55 pm
Outdoor or “free range” is only practicle in free draining soils like Canterbury. There sows are kept in groups in hunts instead of stalls and then moved to individual huts when ready to farrow. Piglet Mortality can range from 20 to 30 percent campared to less than 10 percent in farrowing crates. Our 300 sows are kept in groups indoors because it is just too cold and wet to keep them outside. they are in their pen groups for 15 weeks and then moved into their farrowing crates for 3 weeks only when the farrow, which they do 2 and a half times a year with an average of 11 weaned. I have no problem with the farrowing crates, i believe they are an essential part of an indoor farm and would not farm without them.
May 19th, 2009 at 7:19 pm
Latest Media release from the Pork Industry Board has some facts
http://nzpork.co.nz/Portals/NZPib/Documents/AboutUs/Media%20Releases/2009-may-19-nzpork-information-on-sunday-programme.pdf
May 19th, 2009 at 7:32 pm
How unsurprising that the pork farmers, with supposedly nothing to hide, won’t let cameras in. Not one farm in the country, according to CloseUp. So much for picking farms at random, eh.
One wonders why the secrecy? Are conditions really that bad and widespread?
May 19th, 2009 at 7:40 pm
@Radar ‘. It’s par for the course in right wing politics to mock anyone who thinks animals shouldn’t be tortured while alive.’
Not true For a magnificent but harrowing (Conservative) account of the way we exploit animals – and its impact on our humanity I would highly recommend Dominion by Mathew Scully (a former editor for National Review , senior speechwriter for George W. Bush and I think more recently Sarah Palin , I don’t think he can be written off a as a left wing hippy).
I am astonished at the number of people here who treat this so cavalierly; seemingly seeking to defending this practice on the grounds that the Greens/SAFE oppose it and that you like bacon. (I like bacon too, I just want to know that is comes from an animal that hasn’t been raised in abhorrent cruelty).
Do you seriously, honestly believe that this is the best we can do? That you are happy for this practice to define us?
The arguement is not whether we can do this but rather whether we should. We are on this earth for a short time and it is up to us to chose how we want to fill that life . Surely ‘indulging’ (if that is the right word) acts of kindness and mercy to those we hold power over is the measure of all that is best in us, reflecting all that we are capable of.
I don’t believe in religion but it seems to me that at least it gave us recourse to a language of compassion and moral duty that seems sadly lacking in most of this discourse.
May 19th, 2009 at 9:52 pm
Emily – do you seriously, honestly want to be defined by some moronic, exploitative and wildly uninformed ‘journalism’ that thinks that pigs making a noise because they see humans coming and think they’re about to be fed means they’re “screaming” ? Is that the best you can do ?
May 19th, 2009 at 10:02 pm
Put it away – educate yourself, please:
http://geocities.com/betterisonehope/Pigs01.jpg
http://geocities.com/betterisonehope/Pigs02.jpg
http://geocities.com/betterisonehope/Pigs03.jpg
May 19th, 2009 at 10:20 pm
What a ridiculous post DPF. A quick look on SAFE’s LovePigs campaign website clearly shows they well know the difference between farrowing crates and dry sow stalls. You can attack the media possibly for not covering the differences, but I don’t think you can attack SAFE on it!
http://lovepigs.org.nz/Pigs-in-New-Zealand/
May 20th, 2009 at 12:11 am
Put it away, the Sunday piece i saw wasn’t wildly uninformed – it had the input and analysis of a former SPCA inspector, and a MAF animal welfare officer.
May 20th, 2009 at 7:22 am
I have always wondered what kind of consumer backlash would transpire should the Shoppers at the New World Thorndon or Moore Wilsons could see that the premiere priced Ham they can purchase is farmed in Carterton exactly the same as seen on TV.
For the Pork Industry Board to announce yesterday that only 10% of pigs are now farmed this way beggars belief
May 20th, 2009 at 7:38 am
SAFE know exactly what they are doing and its this:
1) get some cheap publicity for their commie mates during the Mt Albert By-election
2) disrupt national bacon weak – for that SAFE need to be exterminated
3) target the ex-president of the pig breeding club or whatevers its called
SAFE are a bunch of Green party affiliates who think they are radical. If they want to better society in New Zealand perhaps they should get involved with helping children, not sausage meat.
Whats the key stroke combo for sarcastic smiley face?
May 20th, 2009 at 7:53 am
I was kind of hoping when a Maori celebrity goes postal over alleged abuse it would be against his cuzzie bros for their disproportionate child abuse and murders
Funny how you didn’t see TVNZ sticking their cameras into the Kahuis house prior to the deaths
May 20th, 2009 at 7:55 am
“commie mates”, eh? What’s with the yibbling baby-talk? Ffs, a century-and-a-half ago you’d have raised the same infantile argument against anyone who sought to abolish slavery – ‘How dare these horrid commies/abolitionists jeopardise our precious economy?”
May 20th, 2009 at 8:06 am
The bacon trade hardly underpins NZ’s economy – try another ill thought out analogy, that one may work for you.
And while your at it why not avoid the usual leftard “evil by association” meme analysis. It makes you look stoopid.
HTH’s
May 20th, 2009 at 8:21 am
Mike King hasn’t spent several years being the marketing face of child abuse and murders. And I’m sure he – quite rightly – does not feel like he has any greater obligation than anyone else to be outraged by child abuse simply because he shares a skin colour with some of the perpetrators.
May 20th, 2009 at 9:36 am
# expat (2408) Vote: Add rating 2 Subtract rating 0 Says:
May 20th, 2009 at 7:38 am
SAFE know exactly what they are doing and its this:
1) get some cheap publicity for their commie mates during the Mt Albert By-election
2) disrupt national bacon weak – for that SAFE need to be exterminated
3) target the ex-president of the pig breeding club or whatevers its called
SAFE are a bunch of Green party affiliates who think they are radical. If they want to better society in New Zealand perhaps they should get involved with helping children, not sausage meat.
Whats the key stroke combo for sarcastic smiley face?
Wow. You sir, are an idiot. I volunteer at the Auckland SAFE office and I can safely say that the staff there know very little about the by-election – simply because it has very little to do with animal rights and more to do with for example the proposed motorway, which isn’t relevant to SAFE. I really don’t see how the fuck do you link animal welfare into local body politics. In fact, I have been encouraging many of my fellow SAFE members to become ACT supporters, as Stephen Franks used to also work with Sue Kedgley on animal rights issues. I have also offered to help John Boscawen with his campaign – I went to his campaign launch but just didn’t receive any further information on what I could do to help out after providing my contact details.
If you look at SAFE’s campaigning history they will call out whichever government is in power over animal abuse.