Mallard on Maori and manslaughter
August 16th, 2009 at 2:03 pm by David FarrarThe Herald on Sunday has alerted me to this blog post by Trevor Mallard. I have not been reading other blogs while on holiday so would have missed it. Anyway Trevor says:
I live in Wainuiomata. Like most smaller communities I know the extended Rawiri whanau, but not well.
These five people killed their niece. It happened over an extended period.
I accept that they almost certainly would not reoffend and prison may be an expensive waste of time. And there are too many Maori in prison.
But I am certain that a Pakeha exorcism that resulted in torture and death would result in a prison term – albeit not necessarily a long one.
The fact that they weren’t sent to prison because they are Maori just doesn’t seem right to me.
Almost every blog on the right has said they agree with Trevor. Interestingly I have not yet seen much reaction from left blogs.
I was actually thinking of blogging how surprised I was none of them got jailtime, and I basically agree with Trevor that it is hard to imagine an exorcism by say a church pastor with the same results would not have got a jail sentence.
In fact one of Trevor’s commenters reminds us that Pastor Luke Lee got six years jail for an exorcism manslaughter in 2001. While the cases are somewhat different it is hard to reconcile six years jail with zero years jail.
MacDoctor notes that even defence lawyer Barry Hart has said the sentences are too lenient. MacDoctor says the sentence is absurdly lenient and intensely paternalistic. I agree.
August 16th, 2009 at 2:16 pm
Now that the principle of “One law for all” has been dropped the outcome of this court case seems appropriate for New Zealand somehow.
Vote:August 16th, 2009 at 2:19 pm
Its taken almost 25 years – but I find myself in agreement with the thug!
anyone who thinks there are not a different and more lenient set of rules for maori are dreaming
Vote:August 16th, 2009 at 2:22 pm
Patrick, I agree, I am in disbelief that I am also in agreement with the POS thug!
I think of late we have been furnished with many actual cases where we would be led to believe that there is a different set of rules, very very scary….
Vote:August 16th, 2009 at 2:23 pm
Does anybody else think this decision has set a worrying precedent for future cases involving “cultural” practises.
Vote:August 16th, 2009 at 2:29 pm
I’m guessing exorcisms, burnings at the stake, female genital mutilation, stonings, etc could all take a rise in the crime statistics now that the punishment entails a slap with a wet bus ticket.
Vote:August 16th, 2009 at 2:32 pm
“Does anybody else think this decision has set a worrying precedent for future cases involving “cultural” practises”
It think the ‘cultural’ sensitivities that were observed into the initial investigations in the Kahui case already set the precedent.
Hmmmm..does any recall Mallard questioning that?
Vote:August 16th, 2009 at 2:33 pm
Bloody maaaaris
Vote:August 16th, 2009 at 2:34 pm
I hope this blatant racism continues as it would seem the officialdom have forgotten some very basic lessons.
Vote:August 16th, 2009 at 2:39 pm
Agreed Patrick
Vote:August 16th, 2009 at 2:42 pm
To give Trev his fair due at least he has had the guts to speak out. To my knowledge we’ve heard nothing from Pita and John.
Vote:August 16th, 2009 at 2:44 pm
Not the first time Maoris have got away with murder aye?
Vote:August 16th, 2009 at 2:49 pm
Mallard has a point. One law for all. Is he chanelling Don Brash now?
Vote:August 16th, 2009 at 3:19 pm
If you all think the judge was wrong, get a law degree, become a sentencing judge and sentence people. Seems simple to me.
Vote:August 16th, 2009 at 3:26 pm
Still no charges laid when they kill a couple of babies and STFU. How come the lot where not charged with failing to provide the necessaries of life. Someone lacking balls, I think!!! Politically correct Troughors
Vote:August 16th, 2009 at 3:31 pm
So when we have this degree and position, you wont mind what sentences are passed down Kingi, just anything we feel like on the day?
Vote:August 16th, 2009 at 3:35 pm
Pastor Lee’s manslaughter conviction was overturned in 2007 on the basis that the Jury should have considered the possibility that the deceased consented to the ritual (not the death, the ritual) in determining guilt (namely if she consented to the ritual, Pastor Lee’s exorcism was not in itself an unlawful act and so a key part of the case against him is suspect). However he’s been deported so any retrial is going to be tricky (and still hasn’t occurred yet).
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10377129
Vote:August 16th, 2009 at 3:36 pm
If I become a sentencing judge and put people in prison just because they are Maori will you accept that Kingi? Or will you have an opinion about it despite not being a sentencing judge yourself?
Vote:August 16th, 2009 at 3:36 pm
So the meme of the day is “bloody Maaaris getting away with murder/PC world gone mad, is it?” Well, let’s see what a little application of the available facts does to that received wisdom.
First, the idea that the judge gave the defendants a lighter sentence just ’cause they were Maori/just ’cause it they thought they were lifting a makutu is flat wrong. Look at press reports of the sentencing hearing:
“Justice Simon France today told the siblings that their understanding and knowledge of their culture was not complete. He accepted they had not realised the danger of what they were doing and had only wanted to help Ms Moses, who the Crown said had been mentally ill.
He rejected the notion that they had been acting out a religious or cultural ritual.
Ms Moses died because the family isolated themselves from help and advice, he said.”
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/2752949/No-jail-terms-for-exorcism-manslaughter-culprits
Oh, but you may say, despite what he said, he really was giving Maaaris a free ride, ’cause a non-Maaari would have got a jail term. Look at Pastor Luke’s case (as linked to by DPF)! There’s proof that it’s one law for Maaaris and one for everyone else!!
So we do, and we find the judge saying “A probation report found it was highly likely Lee would reoffend given his “fanatical” beliefs.” As well as the fact that “While church members restrained her, Lee bounced on her stomach and held her neck trying to dislodge the demon. She began to plead with him to stop but he ignored her. As the demon supposedly made its way up from Ms Lee’s stomach towards her neck, Lee placed his hands round her throat to force it out. She began to convulse, but Lee did not stop and she died, presumably from strangulation.”
In other words, completely different defendant, completely different actions leading to death, completely different factors in sentencing. Which is what sentencing is all about, and why we have judges. Anyone able to come up with software that can replicate “judgment” … well done, you’ve created AI.
One last thing … I assume all those who believe the judge in this case gave a light sentence just ’cause there were Maaari defendants are as willing to accept the claim that Constable Abbot just shot Steven Wallace ’cause he was tangata whenua? ‘Cause there’s as much evidence for the former claim as there is for the latter. In other words, it’s your pre-existing prejudice that leads you to believe one or the other, nothing to do with the “facts”.
Vote:August 16th, 2009 at 3:37 pm
Hey Kingi in both this case and the Kahui case do you personally think the victims have received what the average person would perceive as justice.
Vote:August 16th, 2009 at 3:51 pm
I agreed with Mallard on this. It is terrible. And would be racist if they weren’t Maori.
Vote:Are the police still looking for the killers of the Kahui twins?
August 16th, 2009 at 3:53 pm
So, the CIA is not allowed to waterboard terrorism suspects, but it is OK for waterboarding in a Maori “spiritual” ceremony? Thank you, former AG Margaret Wilson, for the brilliance we see of the judiciary exemplified in this case by France J. What a fucking joke.
Vote:August 16th, 2009 at 3:56 pm
If you check a few of these cases you find not racism, but differing treatments for Christians at the margins of religion and “New Age” type religions, practices and the like.
So Liam Hollaway’s parents didn’t even get charged although they killed their boy by playing with magic boxes and the sham clinics in Mexico but as linked by DPF the Korean Christian guy got five years and deportation.
Womens magazines are riddled with this magic stuff, whether Astrology, vaguely Oriental shit and various natural remedies where the heroine shows she saved herself where modern medicine couldn’t, mysticism is blameless, Alternative Medicine cures coughs, colds, sore holes and pimples on the dickey with batshit and essence of toad, and so on.
Whats happening is batshit crazy Christians go to jail because they “Should know better”, but those clowns who babble about strange Oriental/Maori/Aztec/Magic boxes/Alternative Medicine and Gods go free, irrespective of race.
It all depends on how strange the beliefs and how much of the whites of the eyes show when they babble which determines the degree of blamelessness.
JC
Vote:August 16th, 2009 at 3:56 pm
AG, do you believe that Ms Moses death was markedly more ‘pleasant’ than this and that ‘if you do it nice’, a killing is not as bad?
I don’t think you really consider Ms Moses suffering as consequential as that of a Sophie Elliot because she was poor and Maori.
Vote:August 16th, 2009 at 4:00 pm
AG pretty well sums up why maori will continue the disproportionate violence and offending statistics, will continue to receive privileged treatment in this country, will continue with their hand out mentality and as a result will never improve themselves as a people for as long as they have bleeding hearts like AG making excuses for them
Vote:August 16th, 2009 at 4:02 pm
” Offshore_Kiwi
Thank you, former AG Margaret Wilson, for the brilliance we see of the judiciary exemplified in this case by France J. What a fucking joke.”
I would have said responsibility for the death lies with the people who poured water down her throat, but if you must blame Labour…
Vote:August 16th, 2009 at 4:05 pm
“become a sentencing judge and sentence people. Seems simple to me.”
ummm and report to Sian Elias?
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10585617
Vote:August 16th, 2009 at 4:06 pm
Murray M
“To give Trev his fair due at least he has had the guts to speak out. To my knowledge we’ve heard nothing from Pita and John.”
Murray, don’t give that arsehole anything. Before you were overwhelmed by the wave of euphoria that appears to have engulfed you just because he said something you agree with, did you actually stop and ask yourself why he said it?
and Brian Smaller, he isn’t channelling Brash. He’s channelling “the last cab off the rank has rejected us so lets see if we can now score some redneck points”.
FFS, are you all so stupid that you actually believe this prick or that he didn’t have an alterior motive? Although on past history of what he and his mates did to this country, its possible more of a posterior motive.
Vote:August 16th, 2009 at 4:11 pm
Herman,
The experience of either “exorcism” victim would have been horrendous – there’s very few “nice deaths”. As would Sophie Elliot’s last seconds (but your reason for raising her case mystifies me … surely you aren’t comparing the “Moses 5″ to Clayton Weatherston, are you?). However, the issue at sentencing is, what was the culpability of those being sentenced … how immediately/directly did their acts connect to the death of the victim. And there is a difference between one single individual manually strangling a person (which carries an exceptionally high risk of causing death) and a group of people forcing water into a person (none of whom could be as directly connected to the subsequent drowning).
Patrick,
As you advance no facts at all to support your claim, you say nothing at all. But feel free to keep typing, if it keeps you off the streets.
Vote:August 16th, 2009 at 4:12 pm
I may well have missed something, but was this not a key plank of their defence? If so, it would seem His Honour is ascribing to the defendants motives and intent which they themselves deny.
As regular fellow commenters will know I’m hardly the first person that comes to mind when listing those who call for harsher penalties. But this seems very much akin to the person who says “I didn’t realise I was too drunk to drive when I got behind the wheel and I was only trying to do a good deed by offering my passenger a lift home”. Courts tend to view this as reckless behaviour – akin to negligent homicide, if we had such a charge – and hand out a term of imprisonment as much to acknowledge the value of a life lost as to punish the offender.
It’s a very odd decision which sets troubling precedents and Trevor is to be commended for speaking out. Rather than taking cheap shots at him, I’d urge people to go defend him at Red Alert, where he’s taking some flak from the Clarkistas.
Vote:August 16th, 2009 at 4:14 pm
AG – I wouldnt have expected you to catch that point (youre obviously far too short)
Vote:August 16th, 2009 at 4:15 pm
JC (3:56pm) – “…coughs, colds, sore holes and pimples…”
Brilliant – haven’t heard that expression in years! LOL!!! Thanks.
Vote:August 16th, 2009 at 4:18 pm
Imprisonment would only further degrade these poor ignorant people.
Vote:I think the Judge got it right.
They showed heartfelt remorse during the trial.
Why do we need to lock them away? Punishment? Revenge?
It’s agreed they’re all unlikely to offend again.
What they did was an aberration with shocking consequences.
Superstition and ignorance blended into the bizarre.
Being Maori is irrelevant. Comparing other cases is pointless.
This was a unique case with highly unusual circumstances.
I think the Judge gave a unique sentence appropriate to those circumstances.
August 16th, 2009 at 4:28 pm
You’re right coolas. Lets let anyone off killing people as long as they feel “remorseful” (or at least looks like they are) and they ‘think’ they’re unlikely to offend again. Fucking stupid.
Vote:August 16th, 2009 at 4:28 pm
Rex,
Given his behaviour throughout their government, and the behaviour of his government, do you REALLY think that was a cheap shot? Or do you REALLY believe Mallard has political credibility despite that background and that he actually has the best interests of this country and its society at heart?
If the answer to both questions is ‘yes’, then maybe you should stop using Philu’s cookie recipe.
Vote:August 16th, 2009 at 4:29 pm
Rex,
The point France J was making was that despite the defendant’s claims about what they thought they were doing (“lifting a makutu in accordance with Maori traditional beliefs”), they in fact were doing no such thing. This wasn’t “traditional beliefs” or “cultural practice” within Maoridom … it was a fubar situation where a smattering of half-understood concepts got mixed together with group psychology to result in tragedy.
I’d liken this situation to the Salem witch trials … ostensibly that involved a bunch of Christians applying the bible’s teaching. But I don’t think you’ll find anyone come on this thread to defend those trials on the grounds that “yes – that’s what Christianity is all about – we should judge it as a religion because of the acts of those people”. Instead, it stands as a testament to the danger of what happens when a community/group egg each other on to more extreme actions.
As for your drink-driving analogy, the problem with it is that a deterrent motive enters into sentencing decisions in such cases. Here, there is no such motive (the defendents will never act this way again (as can be best humanly predicted), and the chance of some other group saying “let’s risk drowning a family member ’cause it’ll only end in community service” is miniscule.
Vote:August 16th, 2009 at 4:32 pm
I understand any comment from Mr Key or any member of the executive is entirely inappropriate if not illegal . Where did the (dis)hon mr mallard suddenly rediscover his gonads, have the minions found the combination for dear leaders safe.
Vote:August 16th, 2009 at 4:41 pm
Rex
I should have added that the best thing they could do would be to tear themselves to shreds.
Furthermore, I simply can’t for the life of me see how any expression of support for Mallard is anything other than tacit acceptance of everyting those pricks did.
If Mallard wants to ‘come out’, then he should start by ackowledging ALL of it. The lies, the corruption, the deceipt, the smears, Owen Glenn, Peters, pissing money away and buying support, corrupting the public service – the whole sorry disgraceful and utterly shameless abuse of power.
Until he does that, he has no credibility AT ALL. The fact that anyone would want to support him on this issue or anything that he/they float out in their desparation to slime back in and fuck this country all over again, is a reflection on their stupidity, not mallard’s credibility of which their is none.
Vote:August 16th, 2009 at 4:41 pm
At the end of the day they killed a 22 year old and tortured a 14 year old. I’m sure apologists and whoever will dress it up to suit their own warped ideologies to defend these idiots, but that’s what happened. I don’t give a shit how good their intentions were, how they felt about it after the deed or their current mental state. No jail time for killing someone is ridiculous. If the judge took this “makutu” as a reason to give a lighter sentence based on some backward cultural practice then the cunt should be fired.
Vote:August 16th, 2009 at 4:45 pm
Thankyou E-Fire. THAT is the point.
Vote:August 16th, 2009 at 4:47 pm
It boggles one’s mind that in this day and age, people could be so stupid. Everyone should be able to figure out the probable consequences of forceably pouring a large amount of water down someone’s throat.
Perhaps instead of attending a useless cultural program, they should attend a course on CPR and water safety. It would probably do more to avert such *unforseen consequences* in future than teaching more baseless superstition. Its also worrying that the judge can force people to take cultural courses.
Vote:August 16th, 2009 at 4:52 pm
And EverlastingFire proves my point made at 3:36 this afternoon. Facts? Facts? Bah! Just fire the c*nt!
Vote:August 16th, 2009 at 4:56 pm
paradigm,
Seems eminently sensible that where the defendants so misapprehend their own culture that they engage in behaviour (believing it to be “traditional”) that leads to the death of a person, part of the consequences of that behaviour is to learn exactly what your cultural background really is all about. Isn’t this the punishment fitting the crime?
And why is it worrying that the judge can force people to take such courses?
Vote:August 16th, 2009 at 4:58 pm
AG
Hurro!! Facts??
Did they not force water down her throat and kill her? Excuse me?
Well how about this new technique I’ve developed to drive the devil out of young babies so they sleep and don’t wake up crying all night.
Ya just take a ball pein hammer, and then ya just … tap … tap … tap … away on their heads until they go to sleep …
FFS.
Vote:August 16th, 2009 at 5:01 pm
thedavincimode:
I’ve worked with Trevor as a local MP and as a Minister. In both those roles I found him to be effective, dedicated and, yes, with the best interests of ordinary people at heart.
I could never really draw him out on the multiple travesties committed by the government of which he was a part, or to what degree (if at all) he was vocal in opposing them in Cabinet and caucus (but would then have been bound by collective Cabinet responsibility to pretend he agreed with everything).
I suspect – though I emphasise he said nothing to me to give me anything to hang this on beyond a hunch based on knowing him as a person – that his opinions on the way Labour has been run for the last decade or so would be very much akin to John Tamihere’s. I’d like to see him “come out” too, but the reality of politics is that he would end his career by so doing, as Tamihere did. I’d rather have a few sensible people in Labour than martyrs outside it.
AG:
While not disagreeing with what you say, it’s my belief that the so-called “deterrence value” in sentencing is an absolute load of nonsense in anything other, perhaps, than carefully pre-planned and emotionless crimes.
The fact is no offender stops to think “hang on, I saw in the paper the other day where this person who did what I’m about to do got X years… oops, better not”. They’re too busy craving their next fix, to full of “P”, too full of testosterone, too full of booze… rational thinking doesn’t enter into crime.
I’d equally argue that the risk of 99% of the population saying “s/he doesn’t want to go out with me any more, I think I’ll stab her 216 times” is pretty miniscule as well.
So deterrence has nothing to do with my thinking on this. A life was lost, and it has been valued at less (in terms of the punishment imposed on those who took it) than a few plasma TVs.
Much as I oppose kneejerk calls for longer sentences I also oppose the increasing lack of parity in sentencing. This would seem to be a glaring example of the latter that has left even left wing blogs wondering.
Vote:August 16th, 2009 at 5:07 pm
Well fair enough Rex
But then that leaves him with some difficult decisions doesn’t it. And so far he hasn’t been able to make the decison that allows him any credibility. Until he does, he gets nothing but contempt from me, because it doesn’t actually count to be in the silent opposition. He was part of it and went along with it. He had more choice than people who have been intimidated into supporting their Governments. He could have got another job. This wasn’t actually Nazi Germany despite Klerk’s best endeavours.
Vote:August 16th, 2009 at 5:08 pm
Possibly they all had such doubts, and cast them from their mind, seeing doubt as the enemy of faith.
Vote:August 16th, 2009 at 5:18 pm
so when a trash maori beats a baby to death , its getting those nasty devils out of it???? could become a maori growth industry, ?
Vote:August 16th, 2009 at 5:24 pm
thedavincimode:
Well I took the alternative option (blew the whistle on corruption and walked out) and what did it achieve?
Okay, Winston’s support went from 30% to 13% by the election, partly as a result of those revelations. But he still ended up the “kingmaker” in 1996, his acolytes still infested the Cabinet (remember the woman whose first and only achievment as Minister was to fly to Paris to shop? Or Deborah Morris, who’s now hectoring us on the Section 59 referendum?) and he still wrecked that National government, distracting it from governing by inventing disputes and eventually walking out.
Then he managed to get re-elected, bringing with him an even more toxic bunch such as Ron Mark and Peter Brown. He even got to be Minister of Foreign Affairs and of Racing, bringing him perks and brown paper bags full of cash. And an undue influence on a Labour government this time.
Meanwhile I get to sit here commenting on blogs…
I’d say Trevor has a stronger stomach and a damn sight more sense than me. But your assumption could equally be correct. I think only time will tell now the H’s have taken their style of “leadership” elsewhere.
(And apologies everyone else for veering off topic).
Vote:August 16th, 2009 at 5:37 pm
Rex Widerstrom
“… what did it achieve?”
Wot, you don’t value being able to look yourself in the mirror? And what would you have achieved if you stayed? Would M. Bouffant have come over all honest?
This bollocks about staying to fight the rearguard action is just that: bollocks. Its self-interest. Mallard could have walked away and come back when he thought it was a party that represented something he believed in. King Canute was always going to get wet feet. Sometimes, you just can’t fight nature and the best thing that you can do for your cause is preserve your credibility and self-respect for when its going to achieve something.
“Meanwhile I get to sit here commenting on blogs…”
Well yes, but then you’re no more tragic than the rest of us.
Vote:August 16th, 2009 at 5:43 pm
well i for one am grateful you are here commenting on Kiwiblog Rex, you give me alot of food for thought.
Vote:August 16th, 2009 at 6:04 pm
Why thank you thedavincimode and Banana Llama, that about makes my weekend. I think I’ll have “no more tragic than the rest of them” inscribed as my epitaph
Vote:August 16th, 2009 at 6:30 pm
More generally their overwhelming lack of simple reasoning caused the tragedy. Teaching them the “correct” set of superstitions blindly follow might, *might* avoid this particular tragedy. However teaching them not to blindly follow anything without thinking about the consequences is a clearly superior proposition, as it would avoid all tragedies.
I don’t like the idea that a judge can force people to take a course in what is arguably pure fiction (ie one particular tradition/culture/supersition/religion etc). For some reason I feel compelled to state that I would be equally upset if/when a judge ordered someone to attend muslim or christian courses.
Vote:August 16th, 2009 at 7:04 pm
I am happy with the judge’s sentencing in this case which is in line with my usual ‘wet behind the ears’ approach to criminal justice, for which I make no apology.
I distingush between REAL crimes and incidents such as this. REAL crimes in my book are murders (void of passion), armed robberies especially when victims get beaten up, violent rapes, serious assaults, dangerous driving causing serious injury / death, home invasions and the like. Crimes due to inattention (eg careless driving causing death), extreme negligence or well meaning but misguided actions (eg faith healing or as happened in this case) are not REAL crimes in my book. These REAL crimes are going to attract jail time – the only question is how long.
These non-REAL crimes should not attract jail time unless absolutely necessary. The sentences handed down which are effectively semi-custodial sentences are in my opinion quite sufficient to meet the objectives of denunciation and deterrence in this case. This was obviously the judge’s view. The people involved are very unlikely to have a serious brush with the law again. The judge has saved taxpayers heaps by not sending them to jail, both incarceration costs and hefty re-integration costs after release.
Vote:August 16th, 2009 at 7:16 pm
Hey davinci, the theme here is not about Trevor Mallard. It’s about a very bad judicial decision. I’m no fan of Trev, hell I’ve received demerits for offering to step him out. On this one he has shown balls, credit where credit is due.
Vote:August 16th, 2009 at 7:18 pm
And what politician isn’t a self interested wealth maximiser?
Vote:August 16th, 2009 at 7:23 pm
Paradigm,
Avoiding future repetitions of this behaviour by the defendants simply is not relevant in this case – there is no evidence whatsoever they are likely to commit similar actions in the future. So the requirement to undergo tikanga Maori training is not to “stop them reoffending”. It’s so that they can understand why their actions were wrong in the first place. It’s a means of requiring the perpetrator to come to terms with the fact what they did was not OK.
As for the appropriateness of requiring people to take such courses, I think you’re misunderstanding the point of them. There’s a difference between learning as a matter of fact what some culture believes (i.e. what cultural practices are around makutu, etc) and affirming those beliefs as true (i.e. that the concept of makutu describes a genuine epiphenomena).
Vote:August 16th, 2009 at 7:46 pm
peterwn
what u have just described is our social welfare state.
people, in order to live in a good society, need to take responsibility.
maybe stupid people should be sterilized.
Vote:August 16th, 2009 at 8:06 pm
Getting them to use their brains rather than feed them more dogma would achieve the same thing more effectively, and have secondary benefits.
The somewhat limited thought process of the guilty led to this. If their thought process is not changed, I’d find it more likely that another idiotic tragedy would occur. The most broadbased way of avoiding this is to get them to think about the consequences of their actions in general.
For someone stupid enough to commit the crime they are convicted of, the proposition that they would be able to observe that difference is more than slightly dubious.
Vote:August 16th, 2009 at 8:39 pm
Justice France gave these reasons for not sticking them in prison
-They were trying to save, not harm, her.
- Sleep deprivation greatly affected rational judgment.
- High level of co-operation with police afterwards.
- No-one suffered more from the death than the offenders and their family.
FFS – Lesley Martin should have kept herself awake for a few days. It could have kept her out of prison for 8 months
Vote:August 17th, 2009 at 1:37 am
Racer1, I don’t hold France J responsible for the deaths, I hold responsible those savages who tortured and murdered poor Janet Moses. I do, however, accuse France J of not holding the savages responsible for their actions and for not punishing them appropriately for them. My point may have been a little obtuse for you; apologies.
Vote:August 17th, 2009 at 4:11 am
Patrick
“No-one suffered more from the death than the offenders and their family”
I guess there was no mention of the victim then??
Vote:August 17th, 2009 at 7:33 am
were each sentenced to six months of community detention, 300 hours of community work, and 12 months under supervision – conditions of which include taking a tikanga Maori or other suitable cultural programme.
So that next time they can perform their exorcism without actually killing the posessed. It would be interesting to see if their “cultural” and “sprtitual” beliefs have changed as a result of all this.
Vote:August 17th, 2009 at 7:40 am
davinci- I can only assume France thought it was a rather pleasant way to go?
Vote: