Failing Boys
The Herald reports:
Two-thirds of bachelor degrees last year went to women, the highest figure on record in New Zealand.
I find it amusing that so much time and energy is spent talking about pay gaps between men and women, and so little time about the educational chasm between males and females.
Twice as many women as men are graduating with a bachelors degree. That is huge. In one sense it is great that just a few decades on from an era where women were discouraged from tertiary study, they are doing so well. But the under-achievement of males is now endemic.
Director of the Institute of Policy Studies Dr Paul Callister said he was surprised by the latest figure. Tertiary organisations believed the gender gap had peaked.
“Universities have often argued that men were just falling behind relatively [to women]. But they are now falling behind in sheer numbers too.
“It wouldn’t be a concern if males were pouring their way into other training options. But … females are a higher proportion of all training options from Level 1 to 3 to doctorates.”
Even doctorates – that is a change.
November 5th, 2009 at 3:04 pm
Maybe if the few guys at univesrity spent more time working on their assignments and less on getting pissed and trying to root the girls who are trying to work they might do better.
But they don’t and they wont. Purely direct observation.
November 5th, 2009 at 3:04 pm
Wow, that’s unobtrusive advertising.
November 5th, 2009 at 3:05 pm
llew – my thoughts exactly!
November 5th, 2009 at 3:08 pm
Is this really a problem?? Or is it just something interesting?
If I’d gone to work for a builder when I left school, instead of going to Engineering School to get my degree, I’d probably be pulling down better money today.
KIWIBLOG – IT’S HOW KIWIS SEE THE WORLD
OOPS – I MEAN GRABASEAT.CO.NZ
November 5th, 2009 at 3:09 pm
For proper analysis you have to look at the value of the degree women are graduating with.
I mean, a Bachelors of Applied Laundry and Cooking isnt actually that valuable.
November 5th, 2009 at 3:11 pm
Couldn’t your headline have been “Succeeding women”?
One group doing better doesnt mean another group is doing worse.
November 5th, 2009 at 3:11 pm
Heh, discussed this with my students this morning when I saw it in the paper – many of the boys admitted that they don’t really put in as much effort as the girls, and very few blamed methods of teaching or the curriculum. In fact, the overwhelming consensus among the students was that NCEA didn’t favour one gender over the other, but it was more of a matter of attitude.
Obviously, as a teacher it is my job to try to turn that attitude around, but I really wish it started at home first.
November 5th, 2009 at 3:12 pm
My concern is where are these graduates, probably with Arts Degrees, going to fiind work outside the Public Service/Unions etc as we see a diminution of new entries as the exisiting, probably comparatively recent, “graduates” cling on to their jobs.
I understand that Engineering is crying out for qualified people so where are these “lady” graduates?.
November 5th, 2009 at 3:13 pm
There will never be equality of the sexes until women can walk down the street with a bald head and a fat gut and think they are sexy.
November 5th, 2009 at 3:13 pm
The ad is a mistake.
It is not just girls doing better. The absolute no fo male grads is falling.
November 5th, 2009 at 3:15 pm
“It is not just girls doing better. The absolute no fo male grads is falling.”
Is that because the proportion of uni age males attending uni is declining or the absolute number of uni age males is declining?
..and it’s written “mofo” I believe
November 5th, 2009 at 3:16 pm
NZ’s richest man (or men if you count Watson as well) left school at 15.
I don’t think University degrees count for anything with regard to success and happiness in life.
November 5th, 2009 at 3:23 pm
I think you should take the tertiary graduation numbers as an indicator of how boys are doing compared to girls, as opposed to judging the value of the degrees in themselves (I agree, there are a lot of worthless degrees out there). If boys were leaving school young with an adventurous, enterprising, hard-working mindset and getting straight into the workforce and making successes of themselves, we wouldn’t need to worry about anything, but unfortunately this is not happening.
Focusing on the value of degrees is kind of pointless at best (and deliberate misdirection at worst) and neglects the underlying problem.
November 5th, 2009 at 3:24 pm
Well said Ruth, I know five fabulously wealthy men, only one of them ever went to university and even then he dropped out after one year.
All of them are driven, all of them are hard workers and all of them have bucket loads of common sense.
And according to Phool, all of them are failures because they do not have a university degree.
November 5th, 2009 at 3:26 pm
I wonder how my direct reporting of what my kids literally told me this morning merits -ve karma. What is with these boards?
November 5th, 2009 at 3:28 pm
I wonder if there is a direct correlation between this trend at universities, and the general feminisation occuring at both primary and secondary schools?
It is my opinion that this is the primary driver behind this reduction in bachelor degrees obtained by men.
What do others think?
November 5th, 2009 at 3:28 pm
[QUOTING big bruv] And according to Phool, all of them are failures because they do not have a university degree.[/QUOTE]
Though to be fair “Phool” has not commented on this thread AT ALL, let alone said such a thing. Chip on your shoulder much?
November 5th, 2009 at 3:29 pm
It has been interesting listening to various comment on this issue today.
Some have suggested the lack of male teachers mean that boys don’t do as well at primary and secondary school.
Others have suggested that there is a need for “boy power” a sort of “Girls can do anything” but for the boys of course
Like many others here, I think a little more context has to be added to the issue. It would also be interesting to know how many males and females are graduating with trade qualifications. Have the numbers of males applying and/or graduating dropped there too or is there an increase? It seems to me that trade qualifications are actually held in higher regard than in past decades (or that may be because I reside in the provinces).
I’d be a lot more concerned with the numbers of boys or girls who have a limited reading ability at age 12 than which gender group is dominating within universities.
November 5th, 2009 at 3:30 pm
PS: Chris K – potential male teachers are afraid of being branded pedophiles so they don’t pursue that work. Sad. I don’t know if this is part of some insidious “feminization” though, or just the fallout of an unfortunate court case?
November 5th, 2009 at 3:30 pm
This can’t be all due to communists and lesbians. It could be for all sorts of reasons. It’s not that males are prevented from going to university, or prevented from studying and completing their degrees.
There are more employment and non-tertiary opportunities for males?
Now females have “equal” educational opportunities they are taking full advantage?
Females always were inherently better at studying, they just have the opportunity now?
Current generation attitudes affects males application to study more than females?
The lowering of the drinking age has affected males more?
November 5th, 2009 at 3:32 pm
I think they should rename them spinster degrees
November 5th, 2009 at 3:32 pm
Kris – one of my students (a boy) mentioned the fact that primary schools were female dominated as a possible reason for boy underachievement as well. My opinion of that is that our society is reaping what it sowed – it has been the inherent (yet mostly groundless) distrust of men around children that has prevented men who may otherwise be excellent male educators from going anywhere near primary schools. Why bother?
November 5th, 2009 at 3:35 pm
Also, a lot of the questions here are actually addressed in the Herald article:
Jadis: Boys do go into trades more than girls (naturally), but even allowing for that, the gap is still significant.
Kimble: In traditionally male-dominated professions (medicine, accounting etc), many of the junior positions are becoming female-dominated.
November 5th, 2009 at 3:39 pm
I’m with Ruth, I tell my kids that if they have a career in mind and they need to got to uni we are happy to support them. But I think uni is a total waste of time for many. Fuck there is work for Africa outside the 50kph signs but I mean work not sitting in front of a computer. Many young especially guys are brainwashed to believe a stint at higher education is the only way forward, this is crap.
November 5th, 2009 at 3:40 pm
All very interesting, and it is hard to dissect all the different social and economic drivers here.
One reason to attend university of course, is that it is a great marriage-market and you’re unlikely to ever be around so many people of similar age, intelligence and aspirations as you are on campus.
Second, the historical pattern of women enrolments on university have been to occupations that favour breaks in working history. Education qualifications were popular because you could always go back to teaching after a break. Something like IT was the eschewed as if you take a 5 year break, everything you knew is then worthless. It would be nice to know if that pattern is breaking down.
The lack of male teachers may be a factor. It’s a state that has persisted for a long time. My kids started at playcentre and kindie with women teachers. Primary school meant women teachers. Intermediate school meant women teachers. Irrespective of any imputed intent or conspiracy theory, this feminisation of early education may have some role in deterring the education of boys.
November 5th, 2009 at 3:41 pm
I don’t have a degree. I left school as a tech-geek, and went to drive a truck for a delivery firm. Ferreted out IT jobs opportunties and worked bloody hard gaining real-world experience & credentials.
A few years later I funded and co-founded an IT business, grew it to 60+ staff and eventually sold to a publicly listed company. That was quite a journey!
There is a substitute for a degree – it is an extra measure of determination.
There is, however, no substitute for determination.
November 5th, 2009 at 3:43 pm
What % of Kiwi teen are at single sex schools vs Co-Ed?
Surely that must be a factor, as I can’t believe that the feminisation refered to at primary school influences right through secondary school surely?
I suspect parental influence (or lack of) is bigger than thought, expectations are what you expect and work towards.
November 5th, 2009 at 3:52 pm
Jadis 3:29 pm,
While this is important, and obviously has flow on effects, if less male teachers are involved in primary schools then this will bias towards girls achieving better at primary school certainly, but also further through the education process.
RRM 3:30 pm,
I agree – male teachers in primary schools are as rare as hen’s teeth.
transmogrifier 3:32 pm,
Bright boy you’ve got there. Yep, we’re certainly reaping what we’ve sowed. When I was going through the school and university system girls/women, basically, didn’t have a look in in the science and maths areas when compared to boys/men. For instance, when I did my engineering degree there was one women (my 3rd pro project partner actually) out of ~58 students doing my year. I hear now that this proportion has drastically changed. I’m all for women excelling; but if it’s at the cost of losing men because the system is biased against them, then we have a serious societal problem.
And of course we do!
November 5th, 2009 at 3:58 pm
I don’t think University degrees count for anything with regard to success and happiness in life.
The census data regularly shows that having a university degree is closely correlated with a high income, probably because almost every highly paid professional job (doctor, architect, lawyer etc) requires a degree. Whether this constitutes happiness or success is a whole other debate – but most graduates I know look back on their tertiary education as one of the best times of their life, so I’d argue that graduates do get a quotient of happiness thrown in with their higher incomes.
November 5th, 2009 at 3:59 pm
Yes, and many of the girls with bachelors degrees will become teachers and teach girls to get bachelors degrees.
We sure do have a societal problem, and until society’s basic unit of Mum, Dad and kids is protected and not subverted it will get worse.
Subversion of the family unit has gone on since the 70’s and follows UN diktat that the nuclear family is a block to wimmins liberation.
The pendulum has swung, and is about to start swinging back. Like him or loath him, Brian Tamaki is a leader not a left wing ideologue.
More power to him.
November 5th, 2009 at 3:59 pm
Tertiary education used to mean something. Now it is a joke. Nobody takes a Bachelors seriously. You practically have to be retarded to be refused admittance to a New Zealand University.
There’s no money in a degree any more. Men have figured this out. Women probably have too, but they do not have the same social pressures to be a breadwinner.
November 5th, 2009 at 4:05 pm
MikeNZ 3:43 pm,
Mike, even at single sex male colleges the number of female teachers is on average about 80% (others may have more up to date figures on this) according to a secondary teacher mate of mine.
It’s even greater in co-ed and single sex girls colleges.
I believe this makes a huge difference to boys, whether or not they go on to university, enter a trade, or whatever they choose to do in adult life.
November 5th, 2009 at 4:07 pm
I think there has been some qualification-creep- 50 years School Cert was good enough for a lot of jobs, now a basic undergrad qualification is used as a screening device. That does pull in more people into the tertiary sector. The flow on to higher degrees however, is more indicative of a major shift.
Generally a higher education is a good predictor of a higher income, albeit even in the early 90s, the NZVCC was reporting that women with doctorates earned no premium over those with masters degree. I think that was driven by the fields women tended to do PhDs in (education, sociology, psychology).
I don’t believe there is any connection between general satisfaction/happiness with life and intelligence- the odd study I’ve seen actually imply a negative relationship. Smart people are often unhappier than people with average intelligence.
All I guess which makes a nice meander away from the topic at hand.
I haven’t noticed any tendency for my male students to be less motivated or less intelligent than my female students. So I’m guessing it’s something that happens before students start university.
November 5th, 2009 at 4:07 pm
A degree was (and I think still is) simply a key to open doors. It’s a more certain path to modest income than riskier routes such as entrepreneurship.
November 5th, 2009 at 4:09 pm
Getstaffed and others – Looking back I can remember having one Male teacher at Primary school and one at High School. I also remember having some rather vicious, extreme feminist teachers through High School who certainly marginalised the male students in the classroom (and I remember protesting against it).
My son has just started primary school. It is a new school so new entrant and Year 1 classes represent the majority of the school at the moment. There are two teachers who are Male. I would love it if there were more. My son was lucky enough to have a male ECE teacher – much rarer than Hen’s teeth. Having a male teacher on site was huge even at the ECE level. Boys do interact and play differently. We can go on and on about creating level playing fields for the sexes BUT how they really the same?
My husband initially trained as a teacher. He chose not to take it further because while he loved the kids he didn’t enjoy 1) the negative atmosphere in staff rooms (around the time of Tomorrow’s schools), 2) the pay, 3) the lack of career graduation and 4) any suggestion that a man hugging children, high fiving or the like could be misconstrued as something vile. So, instead he puts his efforts into ‘teaching’ our children and running his own business. He would have been a great teacher.
November 5th, 2009 at 4:09 pm
“But the under-achievement of males is now endemic.”
Really. How do you draw that conclusion. Men may well be a step ahead of the women, having concluded that tertiary (university) education is not the way to go, and have gone down other tracks (e.g. some sort of trade) where you can potentially be your own boss, and have the potential to do as well as or better financially than ‘academics’.
I agree with BlairM – bachelor degrees mean very little, effectively the equivalent of a technical qualification.
Whether or not women, or men, are successful depends on what they do with their qualification. The certificate on the wall doesn’t prove much.
November 5th, 2009 at 4:09 pm
This is often quoted as a given – but is it? Is there any research or evidence that female teachers teach girls better than boys (and male teachers teach boys better than girls)?
I had about an even mix of female/male teachers through school except for one year in an all boys school – and there were very good and ordinary teachers of both sex.
November 5th, 2009 at 4:12 pm
Mmm, let me see, what is the % of teachers that are women at Primary / Secondary level & when did that change vs when did the stats for male graduates change. I’ll wager the correlation will be stark.
Solve the balance of female/male teachers & things will even out, but it’ll take years & this graduate stat is not a good thing.
November 5th, 2009 at 4:15 pm
I’m with Blair that to some extent, women have latched on to the fact that self fulfillment (ie a sense of achievement) is actually a very very nice place to be and are chasing their dreams a lot harder. Of course interest free student loans haven’t hindered the process. Boys are “here and now” and without the drive to be the hunter gatherer, the provider and thus the most respected member of a family group, here and now too often means wham bang thank you maam and we are off to the next one via a slab of stubbies on the way.
There was something to be said for traditional roles and the ambition to be good at the one which was natural for you.
I just hope that boys wake up to their potential futures and create meaningful goals before they all wrap themslves around power poles as drunken bums. (generalising of course but I’m sure you know where I’m at)
November 5th, 2009 at 4:16 pm
Transmog – I was suggesting that there is an increase in numbers of boys/men going into trades so could account for some of the swing.
November 5th, 2009 at 4:20 pm
OK, and another thing to consider is what messages are parents telling their children in the last few years? I hear a lot of parents, especially Mothers, to ensure their girls know that they are smart and pushing them hard academically, while those same Mothers assume their boys will be ok so instead ensure they can cook etc. The feminisation hasn’t just occurred in schools.
November 5th, 2009 at 4:20 pm
The census data regularly shows that having a university degree is closely correlated with a high income, probably because almost every highly paid professional job (doctor, architect, lawyer etc) requires a degree.
Disagree. My brother in law is a truck driver and earns far more than his PhD psychologist wife.
The market determines what profession is worthy of the most renumeration. Hence builders earn way more than teachers for example.
November 5th, 2009 at 4:29 pm
I believe there have been some studies at primary school level that show that women teachers (within their degrees of freedom) tend to spend more time on art or reading, and less time on science or maths in class. Reading books are often fiction, whereas boys (generally) prefer to read non-fictional stuff about dinosaurs or planes. This is in connection to studies trying to deduce why enrolment in science degrees has been waning.
Heck, even at primary school I was correcting the morphological errors on insect pictures my female teachers tried to depict on chalkboards.
November 5th, 2009 at 4:31 pm
Jadis 4:20 pm,
It’s a sad indictment when even the mothers of boys are (unintentionally perhaps) biased against them compared to their daughters. Perhaps even young mothers today are a by-product of this feminisation of society in general? It’s been happening for a while (~20 plus years), so this trend wouldn’t surprise me. These mothers need to wake up if they want their sons to succeed.
November 5th, 2009 at 4:36 pm
Chthoniid – funny you should mention the correction of teachers by male students. ON my son’s school visit the teacher was talking about sea mammals and Finlay provided a lot more detail than she wanted (she was looking for a simple two word answer) so she chose to put aside what he said… to dumb it down. Incensed me. It annoys me the number of ECE teachers that seem to think there are Polar bears in the Antarctic. I’m not asking for teachers to know everything but I do think there is a place for correct detail and a little bit of research of a topic area – and allowing for some students who are more advanced in an area to actually lead the learning at times. Sorry – totally OT.
November 5th, 2009 at 4:39 pm
Chthoniid I remember a bunch of us in high school arguing with a male science teacher about why ships float, he said it was because of little bubbles of air trapped in the steel.
My best teacher was an arty farty English teacher (actually now a well known artist), I enjoyed him playing Alice’s restaurant in class more than Shakespeare.
November 5th, 2009 at 4:41 pm
It’s not long ago (my sister still complains) that many fathers were seriously biased against girls getting more than a basic education.
I think my son was encouraged at school by both parents as much as his sisters – but he ended up doing an engineering apprenticeship while they did tertiary.
November 5th, 2009 at 4:41 pm
I’d encourage Finlay Jadis. I learned more about science and natural history out of school than I did at school.
November 5th, 2009 at 4:52 pm
Chthiniid – yes, you’re right. I know I did too – all those family trips to the library, visits to sites of interest, home projects. I pity the teacher who chooses to study anything related to vege gardening.
Pete – I am really mindful of the messages I send both of my children (I have one boy and one girl). The messages aren’t always the same (as they are different kids) but I try to ensure I don’t limit them and I give them credit for already being intelligent human beings. Sometimes they know and notice more than I do.
November 5th, 2009 at 4:58 pm
Disagree. My brother in law is a truck driver and earns far more than his PhD psychologist wife.
See, if you go to university you learn that two people is not a valid sample size, that anecdotes are not a substitute for evidence and that you don’t get to ‘disagree’ with census data. From the 96 census from the Department of Statistics:
November 5th, 2009 at 5:06 pm
Why has no one pointed out the obvious?
It’s because you’re all morons. Retarded, brainwashed morons. Every last one of you. The cause of this problem, as with all other problems, is quite simple. It’s the Progressives what done it.
And don’t ask me what a Progressive is. If you have to ask, it just shows what an ignorant, brainwashed moron you are.
Now piss off. Morons.
November 5th, 2009 at 5:07 pm
I have no beef with degrees Danyl. If you want your kids to get a certificate and expect them to earn more than the ‘working class’ drongos that the left look down on in reality that is fine with me.
One’s happiness and success in life depends on a lot more than formal education. For example my son left school at 15 and is doing far better than my daughter who did Cambridge at a private school. She can’t even get a job at this point. Let the market decide who is worth more.
November 5th, 2009 at 5:11 pm
I understand that the number of women that actually make use of their degrees is quite low. Check out the stats for a few years down the track. Also, I believe that Paul Callister is the guy that scored $1.7 mil to do a study on why girls do better than boys at school. He is my hero.
Nevertheless, having educated women bringing up kids is great for society as a whole.
Nigel @ 4.12, you should take note of the number of early childhood teachers that are men as it is probably more important. At last count, out of 13,700 early childhood teachers only 134 were men.
November 5th, 2009 at 5:14 pm
Jadis,
(a little off topic)
It’s good to have your input here.
We’ve missed you since you guested as one of DPF’s stand-ins while he was in Hawaii.
I know some gave you a hard time back then, but most of us are pretty reasonable blokes (yeah, most of us are blokes), and it’s great to get a female perspective on the topics we cover here.
Stick around – it’s actually a lot of fun, and thought provoking to boot.
November 5th, 2009 at 5:15 pm
Official incomes aren’t always what they appear either. There are a number who are asset rich (eg farmers) but their taxable incomes are not very high.
November 5th, 2009 at 5:26 pm
malcolm 5:06 pm,
Us morons have got to keep those progressives honest, eh Malcolm?
I think most of us morons see that as one of our main purposes in life – I know this moron does.
Fellow morons rise up!
For some reason I’m reminded of the song ‘Cows with Guns’:
Fat and docile, big and dumb
They look so stupid, they aren’t much fun
Cows aren’t fun
They eat to grow, they grow to die
They die to be eat at the hamburger fry
Cows well done
Nobody thunk it, nobody knew
No one imagined the great cow guru
Cows are one
He hid in the forest, read books with great zeal
He loved Che Guevera, a revolutionary veal
Cow Tse Tongue
He spoke about justice, but nobody stirred
He felt like an outcast, alone, in the herd.
Cow doldrums
He mooed we must fight, escape or we’ll die
Cows gathered around, cause the stakes were so high
Bad cow pun …
November 5th, 2009 at 5:29 pm
^^^ Whoosh as malcolm’s baiter impression goes straight over at least one head
November 5th, 2009 at 5:31 pm
Malcolms RB impression would have been better if he had managed to create an acrostic as well. Now THAT would be real skill.
November 5th, 2009 at 5:32 pm
Perhaps the feminist ideology that is rife within the learned circus is the problem?
Go gals go! Moo moo.
November 5th, 2009 at 5:37 pm
RRM 5:29 pm,
I actually did get it – hence my thumbs up.
And it would be interesting to get Red’s comment on the topic at hand. While he can be a little ‘aggressive’, I actually agree with a lot of what he says.
November 5th, 2009 at 5:40 pm
Not all of us are as gifted as you are, Johnboy.sheep.Walton.
November 5th, 2009 at 5:48 pm
I was looking forward to RedBaiter’s take on this issue. I always enjoy his comments and ideas. When I saw he hadn’t commented, I thought “what would be RedBaiter’s subtle take on this important issue?”. Then it just came to me. The whole complex idea, just came to me. So I typed it up quickly before I lost it.
Not an impersonation; RedBaiter is inimitable. More a deconstruction.
November 5th, 2009 at 5:51 pm
I also enjoy Kris’s comments very much. But Kris is more subtle and totally beyond impersonation or deconstruction.
November 5th, 2009 at 6:14 pm
Malcolm, you old charmer you.
I’m sure, though, if you put your mind to it, you could have a crack at both impersonating and deconstructing me.
Phool tries to deconstruct me at least several times a day, but I think that’s because I really get his goat. Poor bugger, I actually feel sorry for him – for about three nano seconds.
November 5th, 2009 at 6:19 pm
Kris, you flatter me. But I couldn’t hope to get the scripture quotes authentic. Without those it would just fall flat. You’re just an inimitable enigma wrapped in scripture
November 5th, 2009 at 6:27 pm
Myself and other males (some females as well) learnt more about mathematics and science from the ATC than the Harridans “teaching” us at school, kind of crazy that we would rather skip a day of school than skip a day at ATC.
November 5th, 2009 at 6:32 pm
Malcom, will you be my friend?
pwwwweeese
November 5th, 2009 at 6:55 pm
I wonder how many of those are bullshit useless Arts degrees.
November 5th, 2009 at 7:05 pm
Statistically all these degreed females must have joined the public service for its been the only growth industry in town for the last 9 years, Hence the poor quality of the said public service.
Herald on Sunday had an article on Patents. Currently the number of new patents being registered is the lowest it has ever been.
Too much money spent in the wrong places. R&D in NZ is less than 2% and should be upwards of 5% minimum. No R&D, no growth, no new ideas, no money , failing export rewards.
same story again. Too much tax, too much Govt. Too much debt. too much social welfare, too many socialists in Govt.
Rodney is right. The nats don’t and haven’t done SFA.
Meanwhile NZ burns its money waiting for Bill to figure out what to do. ( Yep NINE long (yep nine Very Long ) years in opposition making noises about what needed doing and he arrives and say’s ‘Hell, what the fuck” I’m Finance Minister, now I think I better have some committees to figure out what we need to do while I rearrange my own affairs to suck the public tit.)” What a bloody loser. Unfortunately the rest of us suffer accordingly.
Shame he hadn’t taken notice of the next National Prime Minister and paralleled what Tony Ryall has done. Spent his 9 LOOOONG years learning and figuring some practical application for the health service.
One year lost, no tax cuts of note, the finances and treasuries of nz and the depts responsible for them all are acting like little fiefdoms (which they are) and Bill has no coordinated plan to run the finances of NZ INC. Wonder if the board of our major companies or banks would allow the finances to be run in such and ad hoc way. I doubt it.
November 5th, 2009 at 7:11 pm
One’s happiness and success in life depends on a lot more than formal education. For example my son left school at 15 and is doing far better than my daughter who did Cambridge at a private school. She can’t even get a job at this point. Let the market decide who is worth more.
The market does decide who is worth more – university graduates, because people with degrees in software engineering and dentistry are scarcer and more valuable than people who can drive trucks.
November 5th, 2009 at 7:24 pm
Swampash, despite not having a degree myself I was always interested in what degree quals prospective grads fronted with. I tended to give garden-variety BA’s a neutral rating (you’ve wasted three years but you’ve shown you can stick at something). Liberal arts folks were mostly useless (sorry guys). Quite normal for them to be late for the interview, poorly dressed etc. Science degrees were it. One of the best junior consultant/software developers I ever hired did a degree in Marine Biology. While the degree was helpful, it wasn’t the clincher. He’d moved city to study, worked 3 jobs because he didn’t want a student loan and after the interview tried to sell me some software he’d developed over the preceding 6 months while teaching himself the software language! Enterprise… you just can’t do better when looking for staff.
November 5th, 2009 at 7:30 pm
Disclosure: I have a bullshit useless Arts degree.
November 5th, 2009 at 8:03 pm
Like in the financial markets we all know that past history is not a predictor of the future. Same with people. Its attitude that matters Doesn’t matter how much someone knows, if they have a bad attitude then they are a waste of space.
Doesn’t matter how much one knows, if they are lazy or disinterested in the work they are a waste of space.
Education doesn’t make you wealthy for if it did all those teachers and uni professors would be wealthier than anyone else.
Plenty of educationalists that are broke.
Plenty of people who didn’t get too much education that are very wealthy. In the end its about passion for what you do.
And passion, and attitude will allow one to do whats needed.
November 5th, 2009 at 8:09 pm
RRM: you bloody engineers earn a fortune.
Just paid $2000 bucks for a couple of spotty faced trainees to measure the height of my house.
It’s a scam.
November 5th, 2009 at 8:13 pm
# radvad Says:
There will never be equality of the sexes until women can walk down the street with a bald head and a fat gut and think they are sexy.
LOL. Pathetic comment.
Women are free to think they are sexy if they want, even if they look ugly. What goes on inside their head is their own problem really.
November 5th, 2009 at 8:14 pm
I don’t have a degree but I do spend all my time fixing up the cock ups of those that do. In fact I am constantly having to redesign work and redo calculations of people who supposed to know better.
In my experience the more certificates on the wall the worse they are at actually doing their job.
Unfortunately no one offers a degree in common sense and the standards of universities are dropping due to the idiots running them.
November 5th, 2009 at 8:43 pm
Shunda, that’s the most sensible thing you’ve said all day.
I can’t be your friend though. There can be no long-term relationships on Kiwiblog. Only casual one-thread stands. Meaningless marriages of convenience to score some petty point, or garner a few ticks of karma. It’s completely promiscuous around here.
November 5th, 2009 at 8:59 pm
Well if boys are failing then it’s their parents fault plain and simple.
If a parent can’t recognise their child isn’t getting challenged in school to the limit of their ability and beyond, and consequently growing in confidence and power, they’re either thick or too busy or uncaring. And if they recognise it but don’t know what to do about it then refer to reason a.
Sure, the minefields have been laid by the PC Psychobabble brigade who’ve convinced the useful idiots in academia that it’s a good thing to make boys play with dolls and do other things that removes their natural aggression and competitiveness which destroys their inherent manly nature and makes them grow up as confused metrosexuals who want to preen themselves with the latest hair gel, but if a parent can’t recognise that at an early stage and deal with it by removing their sons from such anaethema then duh.
November 5th, 2009 at 10:25 pm
So whats the problem. Truck loads of girls with BA’s is good for our schools etc but what is needed now is techno nerds who dont need Auckland Uni or BA’s to advance themselves or society.
November 5th, 2009 at 10:34 pm
So I’m curious about a number of assumptions.
1. Boys drink more than girls at the uni level. Is that actually true? Not anecdotally in Wellington or Dunedin, where heaps of girls are profoundly involved in the drinking culture.
2. Girls take worthless degrees while boys go into engineering. I’m sorry, all the uni grad women I know (who have, admittedly, professional jobs) have very useful degrees. And is an education or arts degree really worthless? Somehow I don’t think so. Is there a breakdown somewhere of uni degrees by gender? Seems like an awful lot of spite is being spewed here on this particular topic. And most of the uni students I know who are male are completely lost about what they want to do – and their degree aims.
3. The schools teach girls better about the importance of academic achievement. This may be true (my own 12 year old son is an example, a boy who requires competition to succeed and is getting no signals about that apart from being put into advanced classes now and then) but are girls really learning about the importance of academic achievement (my 7 year old daughter is an example – she does “well” but isn’t competitive academically).
4. Parents can control the academic aspirations of children. Well, c’mon. Parents can value it and reward it – but if the system has no regard for achievement, how much does that matter? Especially for a normal student?
November 5th, 2009 at 10:39 pm
The Systers dominated education system is failing boys which isnt surprising given the past 3 decades of education system development in this country have been focused on serving Maori and Girls.
November 5th, 2009 at 10:41 pm
I’d be more interested in statistics of what happens to those of each gender that do not pursue academic degrees.
Unfortunately, those are harder to get, I imagine.
November 6th, 2009 at 12:51 am
How many of those lesbians have BA”s ?
The worlds most useless degree ever, I cant belive the taxpayer is funding these piles of shit for absolutely no return whatsoever
November 6th, 2009 at 8:46 am
Its an interesting little psycological study that so many of very people that have whinged and bitched about poor educational stanards at high school are so keen to crap all over people who are actually working towards a higher educational qaluification.
And that they’re all males as well.
Someone should do a paper of you all.
November 6th, 2009 at 8:56 am
Education doesn’t make you wealthy for if it did all those teachers and uni professors would be wealthier than anyone else.
ze market does actually pay professors a lot, sometimes.
November 6th, 2009 at 9:38 am
The other thing is that if you have a university qualification you can still drive a truck if there is nothing else available. The truck driver, with nothing else available is stuffed. Always better to pay attention at school and do well.
November 6th, 2009 at 10:08 am
Interesting that you say that Brian – while common sense would say you’re right, you may be familiar with the case in the Herald over the last…week I think, where a BCom Accounting/Finance grad was unemployed (‘boohoo’ etc) and had actually made quite a bit of effort to get a retail job instead of a grad job but was often told she was overqualified i.e. she’ll leave as soon as she gets the chance, so not worth hiring.
November 6th, 2009 at 11:29 am
Why would boys bother to get degrees or work hard when it’s pretty much a societal fait accompli that they’ll eventually get paid more anyway?
November 6th, 2009 at 11:34 am
Probably because it’s hard to get ‘more’ when you’re on the ‘minimum’.
November 6th, 2009 at 11:47 am
Wolfram Alpha has an answer, although it doesn’t specify what year the data is from (looks like it could be back to 1996, but it’s hard to tell).
Summary: In science, engineering, law and business, females and males are roughly 1:1. In liberal arts, females to males is 2:1.
November 6th, 2009 at 2:00 pm
1)
IIRC from the 2000 National Alcohol Survey, 1) young men (18-24) drink substantially more than young women and 2) students drink less per year than their same aged peers but mainly through drinking less frequently.
2)
From what I understand there are three learning styles that people favour, listening, looking and doing – boys tend to have a higher proportion of doer/active learners which means sitting around at university for three years is going to be pretty tough. Women tend to be more likely to be listening/looking learners which is much better suited to university. There is hands on stuff for some degrees but you often don’t get that much of it until after honours (geophysics, chemistry, physics, biology, marine science).
3)
My family tree is littered with male teachers but it’s only my Canadian male cousins who still teach. The biggest difference is income – in the early 80’s my cousin was earning $66k Canadian teaching intermediate level kids (roughly $100k NZ at that time). Two of his brothers also teach.
The hours make it great for female teachers too. They can work at home out of school hours, during school holidays, when they can look after their own kids.
4)
I think society sends 14-24 year old boys very mixed messages about what it means to be succesful. Being academically succesful it of less importance than being able to hold your alcohol, getting laid, being able to take a punch, having good yarns to tell about the time X was drunk. A quarter of males, 18-24 years olds say they get drunk at least once a week (from that alcohol survey again). How does that effect their academic success and ability to pay for their education?
November 6th, 2009 at 8:17 pm
Why do people think degree = success? Why is no degree = fail?
I’ve got 2 degrees. I don’t consider them “success”. Mostly what I learned at uni was how much of an over-hyped over-valued haven of sociopaths it is. People who buy into it and mortgage themselves to get a degree I guess have paid so much they want it to mean something.
Sure for some professions there’s no way around it, but these are the minority.
Something like 9 of the 10 richest people in the US dropped out of uni, or never went.
I don’t consider degrees when hiring, I want attitude, experience, initiative, creativity and raw talent.
So it’s hard to know where to start with this post.. too many problems in it.