Wellington refuses to let communities decide
Todd McClay’s private members bill was as unthreatening as you can get. It didn’t repeal all those nonsense shop trading hour laws, as I would advocate.
It didn’t affect a single public holiday. It did not affect Good Friday. It only affected Easter Sunday (not a public holiday) and merely said that rather than accept the bizarre status quo of some “tourist” regions able to open and some can not, it would be a decision for each local authority – ie let the local community decide.
Todd, as MP for Rotorua, had huge local support for the bill as the bizarre status quo means Taupo shops can open, but Rotorua shops can not.
So this bill was as mild as you can get. It did not mean the whole country would change – it was about allowing local communities to decide – instead of Wellington.
You would have thought it deserved to at least get to select committee, so local communities could have their say on the bill.
An Easter bill last Parliament by Jacqui Dean passed the first reading 73-41. 15 Labour MPs voted for it – including Clark, Cullen and Goff.
And another previous Easter Bill by Labour MP Steve Chadwick had 27 Labour MPs vote for it at first reading and 14 Labour MPs vote for it at second reading. It was a true conscience vote.
This time Labour block voted against it, with the sole exception of Steve Chadwick. Why would Labour MPs who previously allowed more far reaching bills go to select committee, block vote against such a mild bill?
The answer is simple. Two major groups are against any change to the status quo. The first is the churches and religious right. Hence nine National MPs (almost all of religious conviction) voted not to allow NZers a chance to have their say on the law. Shame.
But the other major group that opposes any change, are the unions.
So why did this mean Labour MPs block voted? Simple. The national secretary of NZ’s largest union is the chair of Labour’s list ranking committee.
Again this was not a bill to change all of NZ. It was about allowing a process of letting local communities decide whether or not they should be an exempted area due to tourism etc. The status quo has Queenstown open and Wanaka shut. Taupo open and Rotorua shut etc etc.
December 10th, 2009 at 10:02 am
Ag Shame
the fun dies have lost again.
The secular fundies I mean, who want to trade every day of the year, who see a nirvana in 24/7 busy lifestyle with no down time.
December 10th, 2009 at 10:09 am
Dead simple, shut Taupo and Queenstown on those days, problem solved, bitching stopped, next problem please.
December 10th, 2009 at 10:16 am
McClay is being dishonest, ‘communities’ would not decide if shops were open 365 days a year, that choice would be made by head office management (not that they would actually work Easter Sunday)
No town council or city council would vote to stay closed, big business would force their hand, places like the Warehouse and the Supermarkets would be the ones leading the charge.
People wonder why we as a nation work some of the longest hours in the western world yet our productivity remains low, I firmly believe that this is down to our ridiculously long trading hours.
If you give staff a reasonable amount of leisure time their productivity increases, grinding people into the dirt only results in poor work practices, breeds discontent (which the union scum feed off) and results in high staff turnover.
As I said earlier, this is a vote for commons sense.
December 10th, 2009 at 10:17 am
Yeah fuck the tourists. Who needs them. And fuck the employees who want to earn some extra money. How dare they fucking want to work instead of go to church.
December 10th, 2009 at 10:21 am
Third major group that opposes this – ordinary people that are not religious, but like having a few days of the year where shops aren’t allowed to open. Maybe they remember their childhood and are nostalgic for the good old days, and the non-trading days that are left are being held onto for dear life. Maybe many of them work in the retail sector and want to have a few days at home with their families on what used to be a day that few people worked – a Sunday.
In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if opposition to opening Easter Sunday up as a trading day was widespread throughout New Zealand. Has anyone ever been brave enough to do any polling of the numbers?
December 10th, 2009 at 10:22 am
Woah, David.
Bit of an emotional issue for you, is it?
December 10th, 2009 at 10:24 am
And fuck the students (like myself), and those who already struggle with money, who would often gladly work a stat day for the extra money. We obviously are too weak and powerless and need protecting. Fuck you Wellington and all you condescending middle-class office workers.
December 10th, 2009 at 10:25 am
HAHAHAHAHAHA love a good DPF tanty!
Stoked their was no change.
Ive never met a young person that has said “yay i will get paid extra for working”. ive only ever encountered “fuck! i have to work. i cant go out with my friends”.
December 10th, 2009 at 10:27 am
The tourists can shop on Saturday and Monday at Easter time.
What is so sacrosanct about having to go shopping every day FFS. !!!
December 10th, 2009 at 10:27 am
Third major group that opposes this – ordinary people that are not religious
Aren’t you really, really religious?
December 10th, 2009 at 10:28 am
DPF said “Yeah fuck the tourists. Who needs them. And fuck the employees who want to earn some extra money. How dare they fucking want to work instead of go to church. ”
Is that your hangover speaking DPF?
December 10th, 2009 at 10:36 am
Since Easter Sunday is not a public holiday, if this law had gone through, would people working on that day get extra money?
December 10th, 2009 at 10:36 am
Danyl,
Well, yes. But only in the last few years. However, I could easily have put myself in that third group prior to my conversion.
Just ask around where you work, and you’ll find many of that third group that I speak of.
December 10th, 2009 at 10:37 am
DPF, you recently visited the Middle East. If certain areas had been “shut” owing to one of their religious holidays, would you have expected them to open simply to gratify your needs as a tourist? Would you have vowed never to travel there again?
I am sure a lot of our tourists either celebrate Easter in their own countries or would understand that foreign (to them) countries have local traditions and customs. Not sure why we should be expected to kowtow to them.
December 10th, 2009 at 10:39 am
“Yeah fuck the tourists. Who needs them. And fuck the employees who want to earn some extra money. How dare they fucking want to work instead of go to church. ”
Fuck the tourists? Are you really suggesting that our tourism industry is going to be decimated because we do not have 365 day shopping?.
Tourists come here now DPF, somehow (I really don’t know how they cope) they manage to struggle through Easter and Xmas day without having their retail fix.
Fuck the employees…If they are hell bent on earning extra money they can always offer to do overtime, extra shifts or pick up a second job.
How dare they fucking want to work instead of go to church……Who said anything about church?, this is about giving people family time and a guaranteed break, perhaps you are worried about people having a choice, yes, some of them may want to go to church, if they do then bully for them, I sure as hell will not be joining them but that is not to say they should not be able to do so.
I also think you are wrong when you say this is a campaign organised by the religious right and the unions, there are plenty of people who I know that are very much in favour of the status quo, there is a strong level of support among ordinary Kiwis for things to remain as they are.
Well done to Shane Ardern, Chester Borrows, Bill English, Phil Heatley, Sam Lotu-Iiga, Tim Macindoe, Eric Roy, Katrina Shanks, Jonathan Young.
December 10th, 2009 at 10:41 am
Bloody well said Lucia Maria.
December 10th, 2009 at 10:43 am
So become a church minister. Then going to church is work!
December 10th, 2009 at 10:44 am
is DPF against labour day too? the 40 hour week would have pissed you off back in the day!
“its not fair a worker cant do 90 hours a week in the shi thole factory i own! they want to make more money”
[DPF: Last time I checked there is no law preventing people from working more than 40 hours a week if they chose to. And I would support a law saying no employee can be forced to work on not just Easter Sunday, but the whole four Easter days. But if an employee does wish to work, and use the money they earn to take a holiday with their family a few weeks later they should be able to. I'd rather earn more money to afford a week long holiday than have a holiday weekend where I only get Friday and Sunday off but not Saturday and Monday]
December 10th, 2009 at 10:49 am
who knew bruv was a slimy authoritarian socialist?
Its not for you to say what “families” should be able to do, its up to them and their employers.
when i was a student and also in my first few years of work, i jumped at the chance to work stat days. why? i get paid more, i avoided trying to be in the holiday spots when every one else was, and i could then take time off when i wanted to.
what the hell is the point of not working easter friday or sunday, if you have to work the saturday. how much family time do you get then bruv? 1 day out of 4? i’d rather work right through and take 4 days off when i want to.
but of course in your small mind, we have to stop families having a choice becuase you don;t like shops being open (except the ones that are, and i am sure you have never bought petrol on stat day).
funny how all those who hate nanny state and interference are perfectly happy to interfere when it suits them.
December 10th, 2009 at 10:50 am
On the one hand shopkeepers and others should or should not have a choice about opening. On the other….what? If you want a day free of shopping, just take it, stay home. If you are religious then go to your church, but dont expect the secular to join you.
Frankly I can think of nothing worse than going to a mall but it irritates the hell out of me if I want to buy something and someone cant sell it because of some archaic law.
December 10th, 2009 at 10:53 am
So all this lefty bullshit about ‘community empowerment’ is just lefty bullshit!
December 10th, 2009 at 10:56 am
It’s amusing/sad that so much is said about the fears of PC brainwashing and governments trying to rule our lives as people keep racing to the shops with their commercial addiction. They have become retail bots, continually summoned by the virus. Sale suckers. They’re loving it, so they’re told.
December 10th, 2009 at 11:02 am
Grendel
Wow!….you sure are a sore loser.
I never said what families should do, if you fucking read what I had to say instead of getting all red faced and abusive you will see that I am a fan of families and communities having the time to spend together, they can choose if they do so or not, you are the one who wants to force people to work, you are the one who is being selfish, you are the one who is looking at this from your own myopic point of view.
Like many in this debate you conveniently overlook the FACT that most workers will not have the choice, most will be forced to work those days, to suggest they would have a choice is bullshit.
Given how you are so anti nanny state I would hope that you have repaid your student loan in full and at a commercial rate of interest, if you claim to be so ‘pure’ in your hard right economic stance then I hope you do not and have not claimed one red cent from the tax payer (of which I am one, yes, I paid for most of your university degree Grendel) I want my fucking money back.
December 10th, 2009 at 11:03 am
“Bit of an emotional issue for you, is it? ”
David doesn’t have immediate family or a 9 to 5 low paid job but he does have money and he gets pissy when he can’t sepnd it.
Fucking pathetic to see him use left wing emotive labels like “religious right” as well. Harden up Dave, shop on line if you can’t get through the day without a fix.
[DPF: DOn't be a fuckwit. Nothing to do with what I personally want. In Wellington bars and cafes are open already and my retail shopping is so sparse I assure you it is no inconvience to me.
It is a point of principle to me. It is not a legitimate role of the state to ban employees from being able to earn money]
December 10th, 2009 at 11:05 am
Spot on, big bruv.
December 10th, 2009 at 11:05 am
Letting the communities decide – via select committee – is all good in theory, dpf, but in a cut and dried bill like this, humble submitters from outside of Rotorua are unlikely to sway National MP’s consciences about what goes on in Rotorua. So, same result.
Why don’t you do a poll in Rotorua to find out some sense of the degree of support for opening up trading hours? Then blog it. Go on – I’d even help you with the polling.
December 10th, 2009 at 11:06 am
Gosh if one wants to spend a day with one’s family just arrange to do so. And surely the religious don’t need a law to prompt religious observance (that’s Kingdom of earth stuff not Kingdom of heaven)
If the local community is happy to have a shopping strip or mall being open for trading then what is the big problem.
What is really amusing about this issue is the Herald coverage:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10614569
The Story omits one of the Parties in Parliament altogether.
This morning there was a comment on the site from “Lucid” of West Auckland to the effect that presumably ACT voting was simply to be assumed as in favour of liberalisation.
I also registered and posted a comment that never appeared.
Now the first comment has disappeared altogether.
If ACT did not vote the story should (would) have said so. Or is the ACT vote to be assumed. Or is the Herald incompetent with its coverage of political facts.
December 10th, 2009 at 11:11 am
Now to be fair to the NZ Herald they have just amended the story to include:
“Act: all five votes were in favour of the bill”
You could have knocked me down with a feather
December 10th, 2009 at 11:11 am
you want to deny them a choice nanny bruv. you want to force them to now work on two days out of easter, and then get stuck working the other day. hardly a holiday is it?
whos myopic? i have been those people, and i know you are always at the mercy of your employer for time off, whether stats or not, so its about negotiating the time taken off. but i personally would rather have worked and then taken leave of my own accord.
you talk about choice, but refuse to allow people one.
just like a good little socialist.
i personally would rather leave it as a decision between the employer and employee, just like i negotiate holidays etc with my staff, and like i did when i was a student.
December 10th, 2009 at 11:12 am
Radical idea: let the shop owners decide. And by extension the staff, because ultimately if someone doesn’t like the hours of work they will move onto another job.
Don’t moan about work life balance. How is that improved by telling people when they can’t work. For many years I’ve worked on projects which require long hours, weekends etc. But I make my own work-life balance. Before I was married I would take long holidays, go travelling etc between jobs. That life-style wouldn’t be possible if bureaucrats decide when we can and can’t work.
December 10th, 2009 at 11:15 am
I agree DPF that the law as it currently stands is ridiculous. The problem with Todd McClay’s Bill is that it would have made it even more ridiculous, with local authorities deciding where shops can and cannot open and not even being required to consult with their communities in making that decision.
Let’s make Easter Sunday a public holiday so workers who have to work that day at least get a day in lieu to spend with their families. Once that’s achieved, we can address the issue of whether and where shops can open on that day.
December 10th, 2009 at 11:20 am
Compared with where? In my experience UK shops are open similar hours and US shops are open longer.
If you want a single reason why NZ’s productivity is low it’s because we produce relatively low-tech and low-value exports. I doubt that shop trading hours factor much at all.
December 10th, 2009 at 11:23 am
Grendel
I am not sure if you are naive or stupid, if I believed that workers would have a genuine choice then I would support this legislation, however, history and reality prove that is not the case.
The truth is that the current arrangement is what the vast majority want, it amazes me that so many of you rightly rage against Neville Key for ignoring the will of the people when it comes to the anti smacking bill yet you are determined to force your 24/7 shopping addiction on the rest of us.
P.S…have you paid back the full cost of your education yet?, failure to do so will see you branded as a socialist.
December 10th, 2009 at 11:23 am
@big bruv 10:16 am
Rare that I give you a thumbs up bruv, but agree with you completely here. It actually would have been even worse than you suggest – McClay’s Bill didn’t even require that local authorities consult with their communities before making the decision.
December 10th, 2009 at 11:26 am
Toad from the Greens misleads.
Actually Local Government is under both common law and statutory duties to consult when exercising a public power.
Not consulting those reasonably effected over a proposal for the liberalisation of shop trading hours would no doubt result in a judicial review. This is public law 101.
The Green Party wants smart growth and so it wants Councils to force most of us to live in concrete batteries like the chickens that they so desperately want liberate do.
But Councils cannot be trusted to determine whether a shopping mall or stripe is open.
Come on. The Greens say they support local democracy until it is inconvenient then they like centralisation so long as they are wielding the power.
December 10th, 2009 at 11:26 am
What is so sacrosanct about having a day when no shops can open? No one is forcing anyone to go shopping on Sunday.
My favourite Indian take-away in Wellington* is shut on Mondays. He shouldn’t be allowed to make that decision.
*Taste of India Tandoori – Kent Terrace. Bloody good. All chicken cooked in tandoori oven.
December 10th, 2009 at 11:28 am
How productive is it selling more and more stuff, especially to people who can’t afford it?
Many humans don’t manage free will very well. Give them the “choice” and they will eat too much, drink to much, spend too much etc.
Free choice may just accelerate lemmingitis.
December 10th, 2009 at 11:28 am
Toad
Uhhmmm….thanks….I think.
Being congratulated by you is a bit like being kissed on the lips by your sister*
*Not to be confused with what occurs in Canterbury, kissing, and marrying your sister seems to be compulsory down there.
December 10th, 2009 at 11:29 am
“Radical idea: let the shop owners decide.”
Yea i can just see Westfields opening their malls with half of the shops closed. thats like a Tui ad!
the shop would violate the terms of their lease by staying closed.
December 10th, 2009 at 11:31 am
Pete
If ppl are addicted to spending on consumer items then they have to learn self control. Like every other self controlled addict who must resist their nectar everyday.
December 10th, 2009 at 11:34 am
Dim Dime
If you don’t like Westfield malls trading on Easter Sunday then don’t shop. They will only open once if everyone else agrees with you; and it will be the cruisiest day for the employees.
December 10th, 2009 at 11:38 am
Sure, but what’s a lease? It’s a contract between consenting adults. No one is forcing you to sign a lease on a shop in a mall.
This whole debate about trading hours is very “town” and “9-to-5 centric”. Are you people equally worried about the work-life balance of farmers, nurses, self-employed programmers/plumbers/fishermen/designers/engineers, power station staff, police, airline crews, sea captions, office cleaners, street sweepers, nursing home staff, dairy farmers etc etc?
December 10th, 2009 at 11:45 am
Chris Dick – you’re an idiot.
December 10th, 2009 at 11:52 am
Less a dime more a nickel.
December 10th, 2009 at 11:53 am
Thanks, Big Bruv!
December 10th, 2009 at 11:53 am
Chris Diack
Oh yes!, all the staff forced to work on Easter Sunday would much rather have the ‘cruisiest day’ at work than be at home having a day off.
Yeah right!
December 10th, 2009 at 11:55 am
@Chris Diack 11:26 am
Read section 78 of the Local Government Act, Chris.
That over-rides any common law duty there may be to consult, and McClay’s Bill contained no proposed statutory requirement to consult in the case of Easter Sunday trading. Ideally, it should have required the consultative process under section 83 of the LGA to be invoked.
December 10th, 2009 at 11:58 am
and a shop owner would love to give a competitive advantage to his rivals by closing.
as soon as one opens, the rest follow.
look at car yards opening on a sunday. a few started, the rest quickly followed. course, the owners rarely work sundays.
________________________________________________________________________________
as for the student whining he cant make extra money – who cares?? you get enough hand outs. if ya need money THAT bad, suck a dick! swing round a brass pole! theres always ways to make a bit extra
December 10th, 2009 at 12:02 pm
But they don’t. Add to that the gambling addiction, the violence addiction, the stealing addiction. If it was possible for everyone and every company to have complete freedom society would be a much bigger mess than it is now, while it lasted.
Most people are programed to live with imposed restrictions.
December 10th, 2009 at 12:03 pm
David
I was one of the few National MPs who voted against the bill.
I did so for the following reasons. Family time is a precious commodity these days and continual pressure on retailers to open longer hours, has IMO already seriously eroded the time working parents can spend with their children.
As a mother of three young children myself and an MP, I am acutely aware of the stresses and strains that long working hours can have on family life.
There are currently only three and a half days when New Zealanders are unable to shop, Christmas Day, Good Friday, Easter Sunday and Anzac Day morning. These days reflect the special character of our society. Ensuring that they remain “commerce free” is I believe an important step in helping to strengthen family relationships.
I have had a number of emails to my office this morning thanking me for my “independence over this issue” and for taking a “good sense and family-minded stance”
By the way I note that Ohariu’s Peter Dunne voted for Easter Sunday trading while Labour’s Charles Chauvel, also based in Ohariu voted for against it.
[DPF: Kudos for posting here to explain your position. Big ups]
December 10th, 2009 at 12:04 pm
It’s also got to do with the culture and traditions of a nation and religion will always inevitably be part of that.But if we as a nation decide that tourism is the answer to our economic woes that’s fine as long as we want our sons and daughters to be retail assistants and waitresses on the minimum wage for the rest of their lives or unemployed when Asians cant afford to visit our green and pleasant land.
December 10th, 2009 at 12:04 pm
?
December 10th, 2009 at 12:12 pm
Pete George
“Most people are programed to live with imposed restrictions.”
Thats the problem in a nutshell.
December 10th, 2009 at 12:29 pm
Toad:
You need to take a course in statutory interpretation.
The subsection you cite does not mean what you are asserting it means. Look to section s79(2)(c) which actually makes the views of those effected a “relevant consideration” which is really a statutory codification of administrative law.
And actually s78 it would have no effect on duties to consult that come from the wellspring of common law. That’s the plain reading of it.
I repeat if the Council didn’t use statutory provisions for consultation it would still be under common law duties to do so. The specific Bill on shop trading liberation would not need any addition duty to consult for there to be one either under the LGA or common law.
But the bottomline question is this: if Councils are to be charged with planning for my entire lifecycle to be spent living in a concrete apartment block and travelling no further than walking distance of where I live now (smart growth), why are they not trusted to determine shop trading hours in my walkable community after community input? Hell that’s an easy transaction compared to the one the Greens want Councils to perform.
December 10th, 2009 at 1:44 pm
Big Bruv 11 28 thats a bit harsh but we don’t get out much and you are sooo lucky where you live. Go the red and blacks it is always good when we win which is too often for some. Some of our sisters are hot as well.
December 10th, 2009 at 1:58 pm
“[DPF: Kudos for posting here to explain your position. Big ups] ”
LOL!
I posted the same sentiments last Easter and received nothing but abuse from you.
[DPF: Katrina is an MP. I am a fan of MPs explaining in public why they voted - especially on a site that was critical of that vote.
I didn't say I agreed with Katrina's reasons. I don't. I was encouraging the practice of MPs being public about why they voted]
December 10th, 2009 at 2:16 pm
Couldn’t agree more with Katrina Shanks and well done for posting and explaining your decision.
Everything she says about the special character of the days is right.
Couldn’t disagree with you more DPF. My goodness your usual rant about Easter trading is starting early this year. We are not even at Christmas yet.
I think we should pay more attention to community life and doing things together and respecting those traditions of the past that have helped to form the nation we are today. Good Friday and Easter Sunday in my opinion is part of the fabric of New Zealand life and should be respected as commercial free days.
Once more I find myself in agreement with Pete George on an issue. That’s twice in two days Pete.
December 10th, 2009 at 2:21 pm
Agree with Katrina, bruv and Lucia.
I find quotes like this:
“funny how all those who hate nanny state and interference are perfectly happy to interfere when it suits them.”
Highly amusing. It is you guys who think its fine the govt can take a third of our earnings off us to support sludge like philu, tell us how to parent, what to think, what to eat, etc etc.
Yet you give yourselves a great pat on the back for supporting holiday trading, saying that the state should not decide when an employee can work or not. What great, pure right-wingers you all are!
The fact is that employee’s will not get a ‘choice’ to work these days; they will be forced or coerced some way or another.
FFS, its 2 or 3 days a year.
December 10th, 2009 at 2:35 pm
I don’t see why we can’t get a break from commercials either, if only briefly. It’s good to have a rest from the onslaught. But this should mean excluding network self promotion commercials too. These ruin what could be a brief respite so they are more annoying than regular commercials, they are advertising themselves so I don’t see how they get away with it. And they don’t work, if they turn me off I turn them off.
December 10th, 2009 at 3:36 pm
@Katrina Shanks (MP)
Thanks for your comments Katrina. The reason so many NZ’ers have to work long hours is because NZ is slipping behind economically, and we’re becoming relatively poorer. There’s no hiding in a globalised world. As we become poorer, everything becomes more expensive, including products made in NZ.
If you’re concerned for future of New Zealand, I implore you to hold John Key and Bill English to account on the 2025 target. They’ve dismissed the ideas of Don Brash and his panel, yet have offered none of their own.
Economic growth is the single biggest issue for NZ and we can’t afford another two terms of inaction.
Thank you.
December 10th, 2009 at 4:25 pm
Another reason we need to remember when we’re asked whether we want to retain MMP. Yet didn’t a recent poll on this site produce a result overwhelmingly in its favour?
MMP handed to party leaders and a few shadowy unelected “officials” complete power over our Parliamentary democracy. MPs ought to be answerable first to an electorate and then to party (if we must have parties at all). MMP reverses that.
Let’s be rid of it, and rid of this sort of corruption.
December 10th, 2009 at 5:46 pm
Eat more pies.
December 11th, 2009 at 7:26 am
The Christo-fascist scum outdo the lefty scum in their self rightous vitriol about telling others what they can and can’t do with their lives and property.On behalf of real supporters of freedom and those brave souls who made the ultimate sacfifice to defend it in two World wars I say fuck off Big Bruv,Scott and Lucia Marie you forcemongering thugs and take your swastikas with you.
Heres the real point again….Its not YOUR lives or property to decide upon….its OTHER peoples…get it? Don’t like what they are doing?Then don’t deal with them….make your own choices with whats yours but don’t whine all year about socialism then about turn and support it on this issue…..you just become hypocrites in everyones eyes.
December 11th, 2009 at 8:09 am
James
Let me ask you again, are you in favour of making Easter Sunday a compulsory working day?
Thought not, now take your extreme ideology and fuck off, you would not know freedom if it bit you in the arse.
P.S, have you paid me back for the cost of your university education?
December 11th, 2009 at 9:10 am
Big Bruv:
“James
Let me ask you again, are you in favour of making Easter Sunday a compulsory working day?”
I say if people want to work on that day….or choose not to and organise their lives to suit their choice then go for it.Compulsion is irrelavant….thats your thing fascist.
“Thought not, now take your extreme ideology and fuck off, you would not know freedom if it bit you in the arse.”
Im advocating real freedom that applys to everyone concerned…you are advocating State backed privilege for some by violating the rights of others to THEIR freedom.In a free society no-one gets to employ the states gun against others for their own benefit.What IS the difference between you and the leftys then Bruv?Take YOUR socialist ideology and fuck off and stop shitting on the memory of our war dead.
“P.S, have you paid me back for the cost of your university education?”
Never had one….I went to work at 17 and have haven’t stopped since.I’ve had fuck all sick days and bugger all back in State services generally.NZ owes me quite a debt…..financial and moral ……if I choose to collect.