Abortion on demand bill

July 3rd, 2010 at 8:27 am by David Farrar

The Herald reports:

A Labour MP has taken the controversial step of proposing a new law to legalise on request for women up to 24 weeks into a pregnancy.

, a midwife and former associate health minister, is gauging support for what would be the first changes to abortion law since 1978.

The Abortion Supervisory Committee has repeatedly urged Parliament to review the Contraception, Sterilisation and Abortion Act, which states the legal grounds for abortion, but MPs avoid the issue.

A judge has questioned the lawfulness of most abortions.

Last year, 17,550 abortions were done, compared with 17,940 in 2008.

Mrs Chadwick’s Abortion Reform Bill would take abortion out of the Crimes Act, making it solely a health matter and a choice for the patient, at least in the first part of pregnancy.

I support this. We have had de facto abortion on demand for the last two to three decades. Around 99.9% of termination requests are granted. Either the law should reflect the reality or the law should be enforced properly.

I have no desire to live in a country where women are refused legal abortions, and have to flee to Australia to terminate a pregnancy and/or have a termination done illegally and unsafely.

I would like to see fewer abortions, but I believe the way you achieve that is through education and health services, and reforming the Adoption Act.

But because MPs were divided 50-50 on abortion, she would not proceed until sure of majority support for the bill – in what would be a conscience vote in the House – to go to a select committee. She had not yet sought Labour caucus approval to put the bill in the parliamentary ballot.

Steve may not be doing Labour many favours with this bill. While I support it, there would be fierce opposition, and Labour could end up being seen as obsessed with carrying on its social engineering reforms of the last Government.

Prime Minister John Key did not answer Weekend Herald questions about the bill yesterday. Labour leader Phil Goff said he hadn’t given the matter much thought.

Ha. I can just see the conversation. Hey John/Phil – I’ve got a journalist on the phone wanting to know if you will support Steve Chadwick’s bill to legalise abortion on demand …. long pause ….. hello ….. hello …. are you still there …. door opens to find an empty room and a smashed window.

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414 Responses to “Abortion on demand bill”

  1. Pete George (23,481 comments) says:

    24 weeks is a major surprise, that is right up in viable birth territory. At that stage surely abortions should only be considered in extreme situations where the mother’s life is at threat.

    [DPF: I agree. 24 weeks is too long unless there are exceptional circumstances]

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  2. berend (1,705 comments) says:

    Isn’t it interesting that as soon as Christianity disappears, kids get sacrificed?

    DPF: have to flee to Australia to terminate a pregnancy and/or have a termination done illegally and unsafely.

    Is there any termination that is safe for the child?

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  3. Viking2 (11,420 comments) says:

    Here come the National Catholics again!!! Bring in the Crusaders.

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  4. Danyl Mclauchlan (1,068 comments) says:

    24 weeks is a major surprise, that is right up in viable birth territory.

    24 weeks is right on the border – chances of viable birth are close to zero (but it does happen). Probably why they chose it.

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  5. Inventory2 (10,301 comments) says:

    Agree wholeheartedly Pete – wasn’t Ben Sigmund’s child born just before the World Cup at 26 weeks?

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  6. big bruv (13,734 comments) says:

    If the cut off point is going to be 24 weeks then why not rename the bill the ‘murder on demand reform bill’?

    I can just live with 12 weeks, I am no fan of abortion as the unborn child does not have a choice in the matter but I suppose it is the best one can hope for, however, anything over twelve weeks is nothing short of murder.

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  7. andrei (2,570 comments) says:

    Yeah – its really smart to kill off a quarter of your population before they are born.

    We do live in an enlightened country though – the only thing that puzzles me is that after a quarter of a century or more of compulsory sex indoctrination education why so many women fall victim to the fell disease of unplanned pregnancy and have to resort to the final solution as a cure.

    I thought condoms were supposed to be the universal panacea for all of this

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  8. ben (2,377 comments) says:

    I am honestly trying to think of the last time Labour came out with an idea that sounded sensible, a win for all the good NZers (and by that I mean not the collectivists). Possibly something trade related, which Labour has thankfully always been open to. It has been a long time. Well done Steve Chadwick.

    The masive irony in all this is while Chadwick will apparently defend to the death getting the state out of womens’ bodies (hear hear), she wants state intervention in every single other aspect of our lives. Oh for some consistency.

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  9. Dexter (292 comments) says:

    24 weeks is ridiculous and callous.

    http://www.parliament.nz/NR/rdonlyre…tteeReport.pdf

    Check out this report, almost 40% of those getting abortions in that year were not first timers in fact it was their second or even third abortion, all paid for and financed by us.

    You really have to wonder at the type of person who would not learn from the traumatic experience of having to abort for the first time. It seems almost as if they are using it as a free taxpayer funded form of contraception, absolving themselves of any personal repsonsibility.

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  10. BlairM (2,321 comments) says:

    I don’t think anybody is happy with the current law, or the way it is enforced. But I bet most politicians would knaw their own legs off before ever giving this a second reading. It would be a massive can of worms to open.

    I see no reason for an extension to 24 weeks – 12 is plenty. And I think if we are going to have it “on demand”, there should be some way of reflecting on the gravity of taking human life that requires women to consider fully what they are doing. If they still want to go through with it, that is fine, but it shouldn’t be like ordering McDonalds.

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  11. ben (2,377 comments) says:

    Bruv – we dont need your permission – but thanks anyway.

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  12. ben (2,377 comments) says:

    Isn’t it interesting that as soon as Christianity disappears, kids get sacrificed?

    Berend – you are surely being ironic.

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  13. Lucia Maria (2,317 comments) says:

    Ben,

    The masive irony in all this is while Chadwick will apparently defend to the death getting the state out of womens’ bodies (hear hear), she wants state intervention in every single other aspect of our lives.

    This is the State in women’s bodies, as abortion is not done privately. The State should not be murdering babies.

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  14. Don the Kiwi (1,708 comments) says:

    It would be much better to wait and let the baby be born- then, if it isn’t good looking, or not intelligent enough, just kill it then.

    After all, there’s no difference.

    Murder in the womb is no different to murder outside of it.

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  15. Pete George (23,481 comments) says:

    How many times have you been pregnant Don?

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  16. chrisw76 (85 comments) says:

    There is no way this bill is even getting to a first reading. Neither Labour nor National want the massive distraction that this sort of debate always provokes and is never easily resolvable.

    While there is a healthy section of the population for whom the issue is black and white (murder vs. choice), the majority sit in the middle and realise that there are circumstances under which abortion is the least worst outcome, as uncomfortable as that fact is. The enforcement of the law as it currently stands allows the majority to have ‘clean hands’ by being able to point to the letter and ignore the edge cases of callous abortions. This status quo goes against the ideal of a clean rule of law, but it is a political reality when it comes to the legal enforcement of moral issues.

    Cheers, Chris W.

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  17. BlairM (2,321 comments) says:

    Murder in the womb is no different to murder outside of it

    Yes, but in practical terms, the death of a foetus is not a significant tragedy, considering that about half of all embryos conceived literally get flushed down the toilet because they can’t adhere to the uterus walls. Are you suggesting we arrest people for murder because they have an abortion? Sure, it’s morally wrong, but I think God should be their judge, not man.

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  18. Lucia Maria (2,317 comments) says:

    BlairM,

    The same argument could be made for the terminally ill or the very old. In fact, moreso.

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  19. Pete George (23,481 comments) says:

    Good summation Chris.

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  20. medusa (37 comments) says:

    She is not a ‘Mrs’ she is just another unwed lesbian who do not deserve the honourable title.

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  21. eszett (2,401 comments) says:

    Here we go again, the big abortion discussion.

    And the typical christian hysteria about “murdering babies” and so on. In their doctrine a fertilised egg is a “baby” and no matter how absurd, illogical and idiotic that view is, they will continue to bang on about murder in womb, baby killers and other emotionalised nonsense.

    If for one second they would just consider that there is not a single defining moment where an where an embryo becomes a human being, but it is a continuous process. Somewhere along that line there is certainly a point where you can discuss whether termination is justified or not, be it 12 weeks or 24 weeks. (Personally I tend to 12-16 weeks if there is not medical necessity)

    And Andrei it’s not like you Christians have done much on the front of sex education and contraception. You are best in undermining it with you silly sexual mores and your doctrines.

    Indeed, the only way to bring down abortions is education, health services, social services. In fact it even has a direct relationship to poverty and crime.

    We certainly need a discussion about the Abortion Act and how it can be improved. Especially how multiple abortions can be prevented, that it is indeed a disturbing number.

    But we should do that with a clam and rational discussion, and not with the christian hysterical banter going into overdrive, as it most certainly will, not just on this site.

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  22. BlairM (2,321 comments) says:

    The same argument could be made for the terminally ill or the very old. In fact, moreso.

    Not really. A foetus may be human, but it has no more thinking capacity at that stage of development than a common houseplant. You don’t lose a rational, thinking human being.

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  23. Nicholas O'Kane (168 comments) says:

    “I support this. We have had de facto abortion on demand for the last two to three decades. Around 99.9% of termination requests are granted. Either the law should reflect the reality or the law should be enforced properly.”
    Given the current law isn’t enforced properly, what hope do we have that a new one will?

    “I have no desire to live in a country where women are refused legal abortions, and have to flee to Australia to terminate a pregnancy and/or have a termination done illegally and unsafely.”
    I have no desire to live in a country where women are allowed to kill their unborn children in a brutal and painful way. The flee to Australia situation can be avoided by adding a clause to a bill making killing an unborn child a crime in whatever country it occurs, so a NZ women who travels to Australia for an abortion can be tried and imprisoned on return.

    “I would like to see fewer abortions, but I believe the way you achieve that is through education and health services, and reforming the Adoption Act.” I would like to see no abortions, not fewer abortions. The above may be helpful but the aim should be a society where killing a unborn child is treated no differently to killing a 5 year old born child.

    “Steve may not be doing Labour many favours with this bill. While I support it, there would be fierce opposition, and Labour could end up being seen as obsessed with carrying on its social engineering reforms of the last Government.” I will definately be part of the fierce opposition and make sure Labour gains no favours from her bill.

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  24. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    “..I would like to see fewer abortions, but I believe the way you achieve that is through education and health services, and reforming the Adoption Act…”

    so…we have seventeen and a half thousand abortions each year..

    this is to farrar…(and the christian fascists…and all those rightwinger/w.h.y..and /christians/w.h.y.. who oppose both abortion…

    …and a ‘real’ state support schema for sole-parents..)

    ..are you all able to get your heads around the fact that a large number of those abortions…

    ..will be happening because the mothers cannot face the grinding misery of a poverty-sentence for the duration of the parenthood…?

    (not to mention the vilification from the ‘haves’…eh…?..farrar..?..)

    so..really..you christian/rightwingers…getting your political ‘way’..(as you currently are..)

    ..you all have the blood from those aborted babies dripping from your fingers..

    ..eh..?

    ..thousands of them each year…

    (hold that thought..eh..?..)

    and really..this is one of the reasons i fucken loathe christian fascists/conservatives..

    and farrar….who ‘play’ with this life and death issue….for cheap political/self-interest (‘less taxes..!’..they cawed..) reasons..

    ..you make my fucken skin crawl…

    ..you have all this ‘care’..up untill the time of birth…

    and then you want them and their mothers to be in the gutter…in grinding fucken poverty…

    ..so..for many women facing that future/life offered them here….

    ..they are forced…for political/financial reasons….to abort their babies…

    ..and that is directly down to rightwingers/’christians’ like you…

    (and you can tip clark and the last labour govt into that bucket of vilification too..)..

    ..were this a country that valued its’ young…and their mothers…that abortion rate would not be as high…

    ..and changing that is in your hands…

    so..untill then….a fucken pox on you all..really…

    ..eh..?

    you walking templates of hypocrisy…..

    (btw..the quote/’solution’ from farrar…is so blindingly obvious in its’ intellectual-paucity…

    ..i don’t need to bother dismantling it..)

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

    [DPF: Good bye Phil. Your hysteria about blood from aborted babies on my hands is so far over the offensiveness scale that your time here is over for a very long time]

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  25. Lucia Maria (2,317 comments) says:

    BlairM,

    Right. So, we can kill the intellectually disabled then? Or those in a coma?

    If you leave that foetus alone, it will most likely grow up and become a rational, thinking human being. While as those that don’t meet the standards for rationality and thought are never going to attain that status.

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  26. Lucia Maria (2,317 comments) says:

    Oh crap, Phil.

    Any woman who does not want a child can give that child up for adoption.

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  27. berend (1,705 comments) says:

    eszett: Indeed, the only way to bring down abortions is education, health services, social services. In fact it even has a direct relationship to poverty and crime.

    You really believe that? Any, any proof? We got free health care and education and we hear fairly substantiated complaints that women get babies to get pregnant to get a DPF.

    May I simply suggest that abortions are due to people doing what as its main purposes has to make a baby? And they find the results inconvenient.

    Legal abortion was introduced with the same argument: bring down abortions. In fact, we get more and more every year.

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  28. Fale Andrew Lesa (473 comments) says:

    It’s interesting how Socialist’s tend to argue ferociously for the right to remain with the woman/women under such circumstances.

    Without her partner’s sperm, the foetus is non-existent.

    The decision to keep or abort a child does not only influence the woman involved, the immediate family are also involved and in some cultures the extended family play an active role.

    This discussion needs a collective approach, some of us are sick and tired of being told to ‘stay out of an issue that concerns women’ – under the impression that women carry sole responsibility of the foetus.

    What preposterous nonsense!

    :D

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  29. eszett (2,401 comments) says:

    BlairM (851) Says:
    July 3rd, 2010 at 10:23 am

    Yes, but in practical terms, the death of a foetus is not a significant tragedy, considering that about half of all embryos conceived literally get flushed down the toilet because they can’t adhere to the uterus walls.

    Indeed, BlairM, God is the biggest abortionist of them all.

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  30. big bruv (13,734 comments) says:

    Is it possible to have this debate without it becoming a religious battle?

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  31. tom hunter (4,748 comments) says:

    Yay – another day without a thread on the impact of the ETS.

    Political Spin 101 – just don’t talk about it.

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  32. eszett (2,401 comments) says:

    berend (479) Says:
    July 3rd, 2010 at 11:00 am

    eszett: Indeed, the only way to bring down abortions is education, health services, social services. In fact it even has a direct relationship to poverty and crime.

    You really believe that? Any, any proof? We got free health care and education and we hear fairly substantiated complaints that women get babies to get pregnant to get a DPF

    I do actually. Germany introduced a bill in 1996, (after significant pubic discussion) which allowed an abortion on demand (after compulsory consultation) within the first 12 weeks of a pregnancy. After an initial rise, there is a reduction.
    The education and the social services that are offered to women in Germany is exemplary

    Year Total Rate per 1000 Women, 15-44
    1996 * 130’899 7,6
    1997 130’890 7,6
    1998 131’795 7,7
    1999 130’471 7,7
    2000 134’600 8
    2001 134’960 8
    2002 130’400 7,8
    2003 128’300 7,6
    2004 129’650 7,8
    2005 124’023 7,5
    2006 119’710 7,3
    2007 116’871 7,3
    2008 114’484 7,1
    2009 110’694 7

    And in reference to crime, you should read Freakanomics by Stephen Dubner and Steven Levitt

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  33. eszett (2,401 comments) says:

    This discussion needs a collective approach, some of us are sick and tired of being told to ‘stay out of an issue that concerns women’ – under the impression that women carry sole responsibility of the foetus.

    What preposterous nonsense!

    I don’t think that the “socialists” say that it’s a women’s issue alone. I completely disagree with that, it is something that concerns us all.
    However you have to admit that it affects women more directly than men.

    Women after all have the bear that child and raise them for the next 18 years or so. They don’t have a choice if the choose to go ahead with the pregnancy. Men can just bugger of and escape it all.

    One way or the other, it women bear the consequences in a far more immediate way than men, whatever decision they make.
    It is reasonable to admit to that fact.

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  34. Lucia Maria (2,317 comments) says:

    Eszett,

    That still looks like a hell of a lot of babies being killed.

    The best way to reduce abortion is to do what Poland did when they threw off Communism – ban it. There’s quite an amazing drop in abortions once you do that. I could even show you the figures if you like.

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  35. Lucia Maria (2,317 comments) says:

    Women after all have the bear that child and raise them for the next 18 years or so. They don’t have a choice if the choose to go ahead with the pregnancy. Men can just bugger of and escape it all.

    No. Women can bugger off too. They just have to put the baby up for adoption.

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  36. Ross Nixon (559 comments) says:

    With the weakening regard for life, no wonder child abuse and murder is on the increase.
    Jesus weeps.

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  37. eszett (2,401 comments) says:

    Lucia Maria (176) Says:
    July 3rd, 2010 at 11:25 am

    Eszett,

    That still looks like a hell of a lot of babies being killed.
    he best way to reduce abortion is to do what Poland did when they threw off Communism – ban it. There’s quite an amazing drop in abortions once you do that. I could even show you the figures if you like.

    Again, Lucia, it’s absurd and silly semantics, driven by your inability to look beyond your doctrine. You call them babies. Please, then be consequent and have a funeral for every miscarriage and every ectopic pregnancy.

    If that’s really your position, then you should ask your God why he kills so many “babies” in the first place. After all, it pales by comparision to anything else that is doen by medical abortions.

    And with regards to Poland, never mind that there is a large abortion tourism going on or that it is driven into underground, back alley abortions. Kill the mother, that’s the catholic answer to abortion. Morally sound and approved by God. Well done.

    If you think that’s a hyperbole, well, no more than your “killing babies” is.

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  38. andrei (2,570 comments) says:

    What a load of bollocks Eszrett.

    In 1980 the abortion rate in NZ was less than 15 abortions per 1000 women it is now nearly 40 per 1000 women.

    So much for Education yadda yadda

    We are “educating” ourselves into cultural oblivion if you ask me

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  39. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    “..# Lucia Maria (177) Says:
    July 3rd, 2010 at 10:58 am

    Oh crap, Phil.

    Any woman who does not want a child can give that child up for adoption..”

    ever done that lucia..?..given up a child of yours…?

    ..can you imagine what that would be like…?

    and because the state guarantees a poverty-support level…

    (so for ‘political’-reasons)..

    that should be the ‘choice for mothers..?..should it..?

    ..in a/your caring/’christian’ country/society…

    grinding poverty..or give it away…or abortion..?

    as i said before…christian conservatives like you…who preach these vile/evil fucken policies…

    ..have that blood on their hands…

    and in trying to deny that….

    ..you are the one talking utter ‘crap’…

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

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  40. eszett (2,401 comments) says:

    No. Women can bugger off too. They just have to put the baby up for adoption.

    Yes they can,Lucia, if they do it straight at birth. That is indeed a good option and should be promoted and supported.

    But what if 2 years after the birth, the guy buggers off. You are left with a singe mom and then the rightwingers start moaning about all the money those buldging singlemoms get from the state.

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  41. Seán (397 comments) says:

    DPF said: “I would like to see fewer abortions, but I believe the way you achieve that is through education and health services, and reforming the Adoption Act.”

    Maybe so, but I’m not sure how he reconciles this with “I support this [abortion on demand bill]“

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  42. Lucia Maria (2,317 comments) says:

    Boloni

    Lucia Maria I agree with voluntary euthanasia

    Do you believe in involuntary euthanasia as well?

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  43. Lucia Maria (2,317 comments) says:

    Phil

    ever done that lucia..?..given up a child of yours…?

    No. And I’ve not killed any of my babies, either.

    But given a choice between murdering my children, and giving them up – the answer is somewhat obvious.

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  44. Fale Andrew Lesa (473 comments) says:

    Eszett, feminists dominate the youth sector of most international Socialist organisations, ask anyone of them about abortion and you are most likely to acquire a perspective that is orientated towards women and their right during the pregnancy cycle.

    There is little mention of a father’s right, of the immediate family’s contribution or of the role that our extended communities play. You might think that this is ‘reasonable’ on the basis that women are more directly involved (and I have always recognised that) but does this give women the liberty to become dictators in this matter? does this give them the right to disempower the role of family democracy and consultation?

    Post-abortion is also important to consider, research indicates that a number of patients that have undergone termination experience stress and depression later down the track. This can often be long-term and can also lead to mental disorder.

    Who do you think is one of the first supporters of a woman in this case?

    No doubt the immediate family, depression and mental disorder require an active support by loved ones to pursue full recovery.

    The role of an immediate family is essential during termination, wedding vows of ‘through thick and thin’, ‘in sickness and in health’ spring to mind. The disengagement of the nuclear family is contributing to this short-fall in consultation.

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  45. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    how about the involuntary euthanasia of babies yr fucken evil policies bring about..?

    your fucken hypocrisy..and dancing on the head of a pin…..

    “..Do you believe in involuntary euthanasia as well?..”

    ..are gag-inducing..

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

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  46. Lucia Maria (2,317 comments) says:

    Eszett,

    But what if 2 years after the birth, the guy buggers off. You are left with a singe mom and then the rightwingers start moaning about all the money those buldging singlemoms get from the state.

    Different problem. I thought this was an abortion debate.

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  47. Bullitt (139 comments) says:

    Could be the best thing Labour have ever done if it somehow managed to get through. I would be concerned if it resulted in a backlash from selfish Christians etc and caused the law to go in the other direction.

    I’m sure everyone here has strong views one way or another I just dont get why they try to force them on other people, if you want to keep your own foetue I’m not going to stop you but why should someone else have the ability to ruin my life just because the most well taken of precautions happened to fail?

    Actually I see a lot of similarities between anti abortion tactics and anti smacking. Just as they think you cant smack you must assault the argument seems to be murder instead of abort…how about keeping it to the facts and keeping emotive and inaccurate language out of it.

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  48. Lucia Maria (2,317 comments) says:

    Eszett,

    If that’s really your position, then you should ask your God why he kills so many “babies” in the first place. After all, it pales by comparision to anything else that is doen by medical abortions.

    You are going to die. You will not live forever. Does that mean I can kill you because God won’t let you live forever?

    Come on.

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  49. Lucia Maria (2,317 comments) says:

    how about the involuntary euthanasia of babies yr fucken evil policies bring about..?

    What on earth are you going on about, Phil?

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  50. David in Chch (516 comments) says:

    Good on your, eszett, to mention Freakonomics. It actually went back to the evidence, proposed a hypothesis and then _tested_ it by looking at the opposite case. When abortion is outlawed, then many many more _unwanted_ children are born, domestic violence increases, etc., etc., etc. When abortion is legal, then 20 years later, approximately, crime rates drop because many more of the children born are _wanted_.

    On the opposite side, Ceaucescu in Romania banned all abortions. 20 years later? Those very children overthrew him and executed him.

    Now I will be the first to admit that there are many more contributing factors in both cases, BUT the evidence presented and analysed _carefully_ in Freakonomics supports allowing legal abortions. That said, there MUST be more education on how to AVOID pregnancy. That appears to be sadly neglected, and the problem is that those who are anti-abortion tend also to be against teaching and promoting contraception and instead rely on “abstinence” – which based on the rising rates of teen pregnancy in the US (as the core driver of the abstinence “movement”) is fundamentally (pun intended) not working.

    I also admit that not all those who are anti-abortion are anti-contraception, but the majority are.

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  51. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    “..No. And I’ve not killed any of my babies, either.

    But given a choice between murdering my children, and giving them up – the answer is somewhat obvious..”

    good luck with the/yr nuclear family..eh..?

    heaven forbid something should ‘happen’…and you should be forced to turn to the state for help…eh..?

    would you still hold those ‘give-them-fucken-nothing’ attitudes towards sole-parents..?

    or wd circumstances ‘temper’ that harsh view..?

    and i note..that given that ‘choice’….you wd just give your child away…

    ..eh..?

    don’t have the moral fibre to fufull that given role..?

    eh..?

    speaks volumes about you..yr politics…yr morals..

    ..eh..?

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

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  52. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    and of course..the other puke-inducing aspect of this…

    is that you feel morally ‘superior’…

    because you wd give your child away…

    (your middle name isn’t ‘cant’..?..is it..?..)

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

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  53. RKBee (1,344 comments) says:

    Companding government dept on to the next generation… is already a death sentence for NZs new born… and NZ needs every new born alive to pay todays dept back… so just for economic reasons alone no abortions… but euthanasia OK being a exceptable sensable choice… a new born (fetus) has no choice and nor does NZ… keep our future dept payers alive… sorry mums.. think of your nations future and your old age.

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  54. andrei (2,570 comments) says:

    That said, there MUST be more education on how to AVOID pregnancy. That appears to be sadly neglected, and the problem is that those who are anti-abortion tend also to be against teaching and promoting contraception and instead rely on “abstinence” – which based on the rising rates of teen pregnancy in the US (as the core driver of the abstinence “movement”) is fundamentally (pun intended) not working.

    Another brainwashed fool – they start “educating” damn near in kindergaten my friend – and they teach you can do whatever you “safely” provided you wear a condom – that line starts about form 3 and the highlight is you actually get to practice fitting a condom to a sawn off broom handle about form 6 or so.

    And where has all this “education” got us – 17,500 odd babies slaughtered last year and the only demographic that is having children in any numbers is that demographic for which “education” in any form hasn’t taken – so for example they comprise the people who hang children from clotheslines.

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  55. Lucia Maria (2,317 comments) says:

    Phil,

    You seem confused about where you are.

    This is an ABORTION debate. Not a welfare debate. So what I would do if something were to happen is somewhat irrelevant.

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  56. Lucia Maria (2,317 comments) says:

    David in Ch,

    Good on your, eszett, to mention Freakonomics. It actually went back to the evidence, proposed a hypothesis and then _tested_ it by looking at the opposite case. When abortion is outlawed, then many many more _unwanted_ children are born, domestic violence increases, etc., etc., etc. When abortion is legal, then 20 years later, approximately, crime rates drop because many more of the children born are _wanted_.

    What an argument!

    I suggest that if we executed all those who are currently imprisoned for a violent crime, that crime would go down as well.

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  57. thedavincimode (6,716 comments) says:

    the silly magpie doesn’t need to put the case for abortion on demand … he is the case …

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  58. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    “..What on earth are you going on about, Phil?..”

    are you really that fucken dumb..?…that i have to repeat it..?

    ok..

    “.. because the state guarantees a poverty-support level…

    (so for ‘political’-reasons)..

    that should be the ‘choice for mothers..?..should it..?

    ..in a/your caring/’christian’ country/society…

    grinding poverty..or give it away…or abortion..?

    as i said before…christian conservatives like you…who preach these vile/evil fucken policies…

    ..have that blood on their hands…

    and in trying to deny that….

    ..you are the one talking utter ‘crap’…”

    and..

    “..this is to farrar…(and the christian fascists…and all those rightwinger/w.h.y..and /christians/w.h.y.. who oppose both abortion…

    …and a ‘real’ state support schema for sole-parents..)

    ..are you all able to get your heads around the fact that a large number of those abortions…

    ..will be happening because the mothers cannot face the grinding misery of a poverty-sentence for the duration of the parenthood…?

    (not to mention the vilification from the ‘haves’…eh…?..farrar..?..)

    so..really..you christian/rightwingers…getting your political ‘way’..(as you currently are..)

    ..you all have the blood from those aborted babies dripping from your fingers..

    ..eh..?

    ..thousands of them each year…

    (hold that thought..eh..?..)

    and really..this is one of the reasons i fucken loathe christian fascists/conservatives..

    and farrar….who ‘play’ with this life and death issue….for cheap political/self-interest (‘less taxes..!’..they cawed..) reasons..”

    got that…?

    ..need it explained in more simple terms…?

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

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  59. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    “..This is an ABORTION debate. Not a welfare debate…”

    in fucken denial of the consequences/outcomes of yr rightwing/christian-fascist ‘beliefs’..are you..?

    the two debates are inextricably entwined…

    that your blinding hypocrisies/inconsistancies/’the blood on yr hands’ cannot be ignored..

    is just a ‘shame’…

    ..eh..?

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

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  60. thedavincimode (6,716 comments) says:

    Oh dear, who fell out of the wrong side of the bed this morning?

    Open the windows or go for a walk maggie. Have a herbal tea.

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  61. RKBee (1,344 comments) says:

    Another good thing would be to adopt out our mother and family unwanted new born children to overseas childless couples… on the proviso that they have to have the resouces to look after and bring up a child live in NZ and became NZ citizens.

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  62. Fletch (6,296 comments) says:

    And the typical christian hysteria about “murdering babies” and so on. In their doctrine a fertilised egg is a “baby” and no matter how absurd, illogical and idiotic that view is, they will continue to bang on about murder in womb, baby killers and other emotionalised nonsense.

    If for one second they would just consider that there is not a single defining moment where an where an embryo becomes a human being, but it is a continuous process.

    Eszett, it doesn’t need a religious argument.

    It’s very simple.

    There can be only one point that life begins and that is fertilization of the egg and sperm during sexual intercourse. How is that “absurd and illogical”? Before fertilization occurs, the woman is not pregnant. Right? After it occurs, she is scientifically pregnant (not 12 weeks later), and nine months later (if it is not interfered with) a baby results. There is only one natural action in the world that results in a baby, and that is it.

    If you take one course (letting the pregnancy run it’s course), a baby results. Yes?
    If you take the other option, something living and growing inside the woman is destroyed either chemically or by being forcibly removed and no baby results. I don’t see how it could be more simple. Doesn’t take a degree to work it out.

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  63. Lucia Maria (2,317 comments) says:

    Phil,

    I haven’t noticed any Christian Conservatives in power in NZ for a very, long time. You must be hallucinating.

    If Christian Conservatives were in power, abortion would be banned and there would be far more positive support for committed parents staying together to raise their children, rather than there being an incentive to split up and be looked after by the state. And there would be sex-education that encouraged the young to keep in in their pants until marriage.

    But then that would also require a far more virtuous citizenry than we have right now.

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  64. David in Chch (516 comments) says:

    Lucia Maria – this is debate on legal abortion. I felt that it must be noted that any decision has flow-on effects that MOST, including _you_, ignore unless it supports your moral argument. It cannot be simply abortion/no abortion without considering what that means for the broader community, and that must include crime, child abuse, etc., etc., etc., when you decide that _unwanted_ children _must_ be forced to be carried to term. Bringing in side issues of current criminals is a red herring and you know it.

    Yes, we could make adoption more acceptable and available, but I suggest that that is not an acceptable long-term solution. Are there enough parents to adopt? Would you allow single-gender couples to adopt? I think DPF was raising good valid _practical_ points that black and white moral arguments tend to ignore – real people suffer and backroom butchers flourish.

    Also your argument about fetuses being children reminds me of the song from Monty Python’s The Meaning of Life – Every Sperm Is Sacred. You are actually not talking about valuing life in its broadest sense. Your stance forces every woman to have every child, wanted or not. That is NOT valuing life but imposing one POV of what that means. Others of us include the QUALITY of life as well, and the impacts on the lives of all involved, not merely on the _potentially_ viable fetus.

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  65. David in Chch (516 comments) says:

    Fletch.

    That “life” you propose is NOT viable, otherwise there would be NO miscarriages, when in fact there are a LOT of spontaneous miscarriages (many more than most people realise until they experience one). That life is NOT viable, and 24 weeks is generally where that point can potentially occur, but not always. The lungs are not quite working properly, and until that point is reached (about 26 weeks as I recall) then the chances for survival are extremely slim.

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  66. nickb (3,686 comments) says:

    Is it possible to have this debate without it becoming a religious battle?

    Are you taking the piss? No chance :)

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  67. Fletch (6,296 comments) says:

    ps, if something is not alive, it doesn’t grow..

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  68. David in Chch (516 comments) says:

    But ultimately I recognise that I am talking to a wall. Those who oppose all abortions will only ever argue from an absolutist moral position, without regard for scientific or practical aspects. “All life is sacred”. That’s a nice position, but then I want you to donate your extra kidney, I want you to donate 10 % of your income to the poor, I want you to be out on the streets volunteering particularly for at-risk youth. But no … I won’t hold my breath for you to do that. Because really, those are the positions that would be needed to in practical terms support such a stance.

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  69. Fletch (6,296 comments) says:

    That “life” you propose is NOT viable, otherwise there would be NO miscarriages

    David, so what? What does “viable” actually mean? That it can’t exist on it’s own? That’s how nature intended it to work. Parents nurture their children, first in the womb, and then out of it. What is the test of “viable”? Even a newborn baby can’t survive on it’s own without it’s parents to feed it, change it, put it t bed, and all the other things that parents do, but no one would argue that it shouldn’t live because it can’t look after itself and be independent yet.

    It’s a bad argument.

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  70. RKBee (1,344 comments) says:

    Did someone start a blog on abortion… this will be a long thread..

    like religion and social welfare… too late.. all three have found there way in…

    a really long thread… then.

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  71. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    Nothing more ironic than observing people who as embryos themselves were granted the gift of life, arguing for others to be denied that gift.

    And then they have the gall to talk about “choice” when the victims cannot inform of their “choice”, but everyone writing here knows what that choice would be if they could.

    Abortion is barbaric.

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  72. Don the Kiwi (1,708 comments) says:

    Its okay folks.

    Phool’s coming down off a bad bender. Must have been some real shit in his smoking shit.

    He’ll drop some acid or snort some coke anytime soon and drop off.(hopefully the planet)

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  73. Fletch (6,296 comments) says:

    ps, there is a scan HERE of a Planned Parenthood brochure from 1952, when PP was only into contraception and hadn’t gotten into the abortion game. In the brochure it says that abortion “kills the life of a baby after it has begun”. I guess they were a lot more honest then, before money became involved and they got into the business.

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  74. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    “..I haven’t noticed any Christian Conservatives in power in NZ for a very, long time. You must be hallucinating…”

    your arguments are on the rise….a christine rankin mini-me is kicking/targeting the poorest/weakest/least powerful…again…

    ..and farrar is about to launch his propaganda-blitz/hate-posts-campaign against sole-parents etc…

    ..farrar has a long history of this…

    ..a few years ago ..in this forum..he boasted of being at shipleys elbow when they were cutting benefit-rates..

    ..urging her/them to cut ‘more..more’!..

    ..so he is more than willing to be their black propaganda-agent…

    “…If Christian Conservatives were in power, abortion would be banned and there would be far more positive support for committed parents staying together to raise their children …”

    working for families ‘not enough’ for you..?..got your hand out for ‘more’..

    all the while urging ‘less!’ for those whose husbands have walked out..etc..? …eh..?

    “….rather than there being an incentive to split up and be looked after by the state. ”

    so..you believe women should be forced to stay in abusive marriages…

    ..and that state-support is an ‘incentive’ for them to not stay/continue to be abused..?

    (do you ever fucken read/think about what you write/espouse..?..eh..?

    you fucken cant-riddled monstrosity…)

    “..And there would be sex-education that encouraged the young to keep in in their pants until marriage…”

    but no contraception..eh..?..that’s the ‘devils-work’…?..eh..?

    you superstition-riddled fool…

    “…But then that would also require a far more virtuous citizenry than we have right now…”

    and there you go..finishing with one of your superiority-flourishes..eh..?

    (um..!..do you know what ‘hubris’…and ‘cant’…actually mean..?..)

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

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  75. David in Chch (516 comments) says:

    Fletch – you are being disingenuous. “Viable” means it cannot exist without MAJOR medical intervention to keep the fetus alive. You KNOW that’s what is meant. That’s my last entry on this silly argument, because those who oppose abortion will never concede any other point but the ones with which they agree.

    For my part, I _agree_ that I would like to see all abortions unneeded, BUT that is NOT realistic, especially when so many deny the need for contraception and contraception education.

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  76. kowtow (8,326 comments) says:

    How about abortion on demand for people who pay the whole cost of the procedure? After all this is a right wing blog!

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  77. Chthoniid (2,044 comments) says:

    @Fletch

    ps, if something is not alive, it doesn’t grow..

    Hmm… not really. It’s just basic 2nd law of thermodynamics. Any chemical or biochemical relationship can be sustained with an external energy source. You would not I guess, assert that salt crystals are alive.

    Replication of cells within a womb is at the outset, just biochemical.

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  78. Fletch (6,296 comments) says:

    David, I’m afraid I still don’t understand what point you are trying to make. A fetus doesn’t need major medical attention to keep it alive; it’s supposed to be supported by it’s mother in the womb. Of course if you rip it out it isn’t going to survive, but why is that the test of whether it’s OK to kill it or not? If you leave it alone it will reach viable age on it’s own – it’s all part of the process.

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  79. Fletch (6,296 comments) says:

    Replication of cells within a womb is at the outset, just biochemical.

    Chthonidd, that doesn’t really matter to me. If you leave the process alone, it still results in your son or daughter in the end.

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  80. gazzmaniac (2,307 comments) says:

    David in Chch – we already donate approximately 20% of our income to the “needy”and the not so needy. It is compulsory and it is called tax. We also donate 12.5% of the money we spend and 28% of the money our companies earn, plus countless other levies and taxes.

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  81. Chthoniid (2,044 comments) says:

    I expected that response Fletch, but the point was your definition of life is so broad to be rendered meaningless as a debating point.

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  82. Fletch (6,296 comments) says:

    An analogy occurs to me, which is not perfect, but I will put it forward.

    Let’s say that it was decided that another Pine tree should be grown on One Tree Hill, but would be grown from seed instead of a transplanted tree. All the Maori elders and Kamatua got together and blessed this pinecone seed. It was planted, along with huge media coverage. The PM was there, the Maori King and other dignitaries. Over the next few weeks it’s growth progress was followed with thermal imaging scans of the ground and it could be seen that little roots were growing, shoots were starting to form and (just for the sake of analogy) it was beginning to resemble a little pine tree.

    But, before it could even raise one of it’s buds above ground, a protester dug it up, and crushed it on the hard ground.

    Could it be said that they destroyed the tree? I mean, it wasn’t “viable”, in the sense that it couldn’t sustain itself above mother earth anyway yet.

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  83. Lucia Maria (2,317 comments) says:

    David in Ch,

    Don’t run off, yet.

    Lucia Maria – this is debate on legal abortion. I felt that it must be noted that any decision has flow-on effects that MOST, including _you_, ignore unless it supports your moral argument. It cannot be simply abortion/no abortion without considering what that means for the broader community, and that must include crime, child abuse, etc., etc., etc., when you decide that _unwanted_ children _must_ be forced to be carried to term. Bringing in side issues of current criminals is a red herring and you know it.

    Not actually a red herring. Both involve the justification of reduced crime.

    Yes, we could make adoption more acceptable and available, but I suggest that that is not an acceptable long-term solution. Are there enough parents to adopt?

    Yes, there are. There’s a bit of dearth of adoptable babies out there right now.

    Would you allow single-gender couples to adopt?

    Absolutely not. They need pets, not children.

    I think DPF was raising good valid _practical_ points that black and white moral arguments tend to ignore – real people suffer and backroom butchers flourish.

    Unborn babies are real people, David. The only difference between the unborn and you is a matter of maturity.

    Also your argument about fetuses being children reminds me of the song from Monty Python’s The Meaning of Life – Every Sperm Is Sacred.

    You have got to be kidding me. Did you not do science at high school?

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  84. MT_Tinman (3,137 comments) says:

    Why is it that those so keen on slaughtering people with different beliefs than them are the loudest opponents when it comes to preventing life from starting?

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  85. Pete George (23,481 comments) says:

    The extreme argument is pointless anyway. We will continue to have abortions in the world, and most likely in NZ. The only arguments that will get anywhere are how easy, how safe, at what age of development.

    I understand that some people are completely against any sort of abortion. They have to accept that most people and most laws don’t go along with that ideal. I’m against most wars and executions but have to accept that they’ll happen anyway despite my personal beliefs.

    Is it something that needs to come back to parliament? How many MPs would relish that thought?

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  86. Lucia Maria (2,317 comments) says:

    MT_Tinman,

    Who exactly do we want to slaughter again?

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  87. Yvette (2,786 comments) says:

    Between the range of views expressed here, from –
    “(do you ever fucken read/think about what you write/espouse..?..eh..? you fucken cant-riddled monstrosity…)”

    to
    “Replication of cells within a womb is at the outset, just biochemical.”

    there is –
    “In 2009, one-half of abortions were performed in the ninth week of gestation or earlier, compared with just under one-third in 2003. Nearly one in five were performed in the 10th week of gestation.”
    http://www.stats.govt.nz/browse_for_stats/health/abortion/AbortionStatistics_HOTPDec09/Commentary.aspx

    Why extend the scoop of abortion towards the ‘viable’ stage, when the time of abortion is tending to be earlier?

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  88. Pete George (23,481 comments) says:

    I think that’s the argument that needs to be discussed Yvette. As much information and if necessary consultation as possible, choose as soon as possible, should be no need to leave it so late. I think 16 weeks is long enough for what they call “effectively on demand” except in exceptional circumstances.

    Another aspect – if abortion was unavailable what would happen to the birth rate – and in what segments of society?

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  89. Chthoniid (2,044 comments) says:

    @Yvette

    Why extend the scoop of abortion towards the ‘viable’ stage, when the time of abortion is tending to be earlier?

    I’m not sure, perhaps to include some instances where the mothers may be reticent about getting an abortion earlier through shame (e.g. incest, rape)?

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  90. Pete George (23,481 comments) says:

    Chthoniid, that’s what I mean by stopping the “effectively on demand” at say 16, and keeping the option open after that only for exceptional circumstances.

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  91. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Chthoniid
    When does a fetus/baby become human?
    At what point does it have a consciousness/soul/self aware?
    I would think that these questions were the important ones.

    I’m all for a woman being able to have an abortion if her health is at risk, but as a contraceptive or because it isn’t convenient, But I am very wary until these questions can be answered properly.

    As someone else has posited, if you leave the fetus/baby alone it will come out as your son/daughter and someone else has mentioned natural abortions due to non implantation, this seems a fair thing to expect in this discussion, don’t you?

    After all, abortion always stops a beating heart maybe even two, abortion always kills and very often damages the woman’s emotional life/heart for the rest of her existence. hence the very real issue of depression for years to come.

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  92. berend (1,705 comments) says:

    eszett: And in reference to crime, you should read Freakanomics by Stephen Dubner and Steven Levitt

    I hope you don’t get your economic knowledge from that. Might it have appeared to you that the reduction in crime might also be due to a reduction in victims, because they were aborted (already victims of another crime)?

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  93. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    RKBee (928) Says:
    July 3rd, 2010 at 12:39 pm

    you are such a plonker.
    This issue touches on the very essence of being human and relationships both personally and throughout society.

    Let’s not forget this is 300 new entrant classrooms full of children a year we’re talking about here.

    When we get govt involved in the basics of society we have to be very very careful. listen to this for an example in the USA.
    http://www.colsoncenter.org/the-center/the-chuck-colson-center/two-minute-warning

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  94. Pete George (23,481 comments) says:

    very often damages the woman’s emotional life/heart for the rest of her existence. hence the very real issue of depression for years to come.

    Having children is very emotional and depressing for some people too.

    Research must have been done on the long term effects of abortion on the women involved. If they go on and have families anyway the same number of kids have been born as would have been anyway, and they might be reasonably comfortable with that.

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  95. Lucia Maria (2,317 comments) says:

    Pete,

    Research must have been done on the long term effects of abortion on the women involved.

    Research has been done. Abortion leads to greater mental health problems in women, more problems conceiving future children and carrying them to term. It also increases maternal death overall.

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  96. berend (1,705 comments) says:

    Pete George: Having children is very emotional and depressing for some people too.

    Let alone of being aborted. That must be emotional!

    Ah, my bad. The Nazis won. We can now declare who’s human and who isn’t.

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  97. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    “..Who exactly do we want to slaughter again?..”

    muslims..for starters…

    (tho’ you would call it self-defense..eh..?..)

    with that elastic-moral-code you favour..eh..?

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

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  98. Yvette (2,786 comments) says:

    MikeNZ – “Let’s not forget this is 300 new entrant classrooms full of children a year we’re talking about here.”

    Last year, 17,550 abortions were done
    New entrant classes do not have 58.5 children in them.

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  99. ben (2,377 comments) says:

    Sure, it’s morally wrong

    How on earth can that bald statement be true in any general sense? I’m not aware of any moral authority on the matter, although I of course acknowledge others disagree about that. But that’s the point. It would be nice to see acknowledgement by pro lifers of the fact that reasonable people can disagree about this, and each to his and her own.

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  100. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Yvette
    I apologise they have 20-25 so that makes 600 classrooms, thank you for pointing that out. :-)

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  101. Chthoniid (2,044 comments) says:

    @MikeNZ

    I think everybody agrees that abortion ought not to be used as a substitute for effective contraception.

    In biological terms, the 1st 8 weeks of human development involve a simpler assemblage of cells, defined as an embryo. After then we can talk about an actual fetus.
    But it is not until around week 26 that the thalamic connections in the brain develop to allow the fetus to process sensory information. Actual consciousness or self-awareness is harder to define.

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  102. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Ben
    it would be nice to see acknowledgement by pro lifers of the fact that reasonable people can disagree about this, and each to his and her own.

    Interesting viewpoint.
    We are letting the waiopai slashers off of their criminal actions because they believe sincerely that they were saving lives.
    How can we not do the same to pro lifers who think by destroying the abortion clinics or maiming/killing the practitioners isn’t the doing the same.
    They probably have a closer link to saving lives than interfering with an Sigint station.

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  103. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Thank you for the reply Chthoniid.
    So your saying that a embryo/fetus/baby isn’t a person/human until after week 26?

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  104. Pete George (23,481 comments) says:

    From I read from Chthoniid is that it’s difficult to define.

    The Waihopai slashers didn’t main or kill anyone. I doubt they would have done anything that would have risked that.

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  105. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Probably as that is when it can feel pain, or that threshold might mean that they have conciousness?

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  106. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Pete George 10:08 am,

    How many times have you been pregnant Don?

    Redbaiter 12:40 pm,

    Nothing more ironic than observing people who as embryos themselves were granted the gift of life, arguing for others to be denied that gift.

    And then they have the gall to talk about “choice” when the victims cannot inform of their “choice”, but everyone writing here knows what that choice would be if they could.

    Abortion is barbaric.

    Both of you, but for different reasons, remind me of the following quote:

    “I’ve noticed that everybody that is for abortion has already been born.”
    Ronald Reagan

    And Pete, given the choice, would you have chosen to be born, or would you have preferred that your mother had aborted you?
    Assuming your answer is ‘Yes’, because you’re still here and haven’t ‘ended it all’, then shouldn’t those unborn children be given the same ‘right to life’ as you were given?

    And at the end of the day, does anyone have the right to take an individual’s life? – whether they’re ‘in the womb’ or ‘outside of the womb’.

    And for those arguing the ‘non viability’ of the unborn under 24 weeks if removed from the womb, may I just state that your life would be pretty ‘unviable’ if I were wrap my fingers around your throat and crush your windpipe – even were you to receive medical intervention following our little encounter.

    Abortion is one of the most vile and torturous acts one human being can exact on another human being. And that the state actively encourages mothers to do this to their own child is beyound barbaric. That most mothers that have abortions screw themselves up for the rest of their lives is testimony to them knowing they have murdered their own progeny.

    And we have the audacity to call ourselves a “civilised society” …

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  107. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Sorry Pete, we’re talking a point of law there.
    It’s either acceptable to act unlawfully to protect lives or not?

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  108. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    @MikeNZ

    I think everybody agrees that abortion ought not to be used as a substitute for effective contraception.

    Chthoniid
    Maybe not right here on this thread right now, but from what I have read over the past decade, you are very incorrect on this.
    I have found – It is a woman’s right to decide what they do with their bodies from one end and right the way to it is murder at the other.
    Your statement is not correct at all, based on all that I have read (and it has been a lot) from both sides.

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  109. Pete George (23,481 comments) says:

    Mike, I don’t think the law that got the slashers off would have worked for them if they had harmed any person.

    Kris, I wouldn’t be aware of anything if I had been aborted. There are a lot of conceptions that never get the choice to live, and never know about it. What do you remember as your first awareness of being alive?

    Anyway, this is getting away from the topic again. Like it or not, abortion is with us and it’s a question of possible law tweaks rather than major reform.

    For the record, in an ideal world I would be anti-abortion in most circumstances, but the real world requires pragmatism.

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  110. Yvette (2,786 comments) says:

    If one half of abortions are performed by week nine or earlier and one in five in the tenth week, that means 30% are done week 11 and up.
    [–http://www.stats.govt.nz/browse_for_stats/health/abortion/AbortionStatistics_HOTPDec09/Commentary.aspx]

    So how many women are to be ‘helped’ by Labour MP,Steve Chadwick’s, “controversial step of proposing a new law to legalise abortion on request for women up to 24 weeks into a pregnancy”?

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  111. ben (2,377 comments) says:

    MikeNZ

    This issue touches on the very essence of being human and relationships both personally and throughout society.

    For some people, that’s true. But not for others. Why should all the people who believe that get to force that sanctity on everyone else who rejects it? Why?

    We are letting the waiopai slashers off of their criminal actions because they believe sincerely that they were saving lives.

    I dont understand your point here, but I think you’re saying tolerance for different views in abortions translates to tolerance for crime? If so – that can be rejected for the reason that for Waihopai harm is being done to other people and their property. The individual is sovereign.

    And to anticipate the objection – no, I do not think a collection of cells that are not self aware is a person. Others disagree of course, fair enough – but until someone demonstrates consciousness and pain on abortion at 12 weeks I think it is wrong to label this murder.

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  112. ben (2,377 comments) says:

    Always missing from this debate is the harm done to the mother forced to carry to term against her will, and the harm done to the child that results. The result Steve Levitt came up with is the product of the fact that on average women who want abortions have good reason to do so. Forcing them to go to term against their will brings an unwanted child into the world who, compared to child born who were wanted, are much more likely to commit crime and live in poverty. The cohort of unwanted children produced is a very violent and underprivileged lot.

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  113. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Pete George 2:17 pm,

    Anyway, this is getting away from the topic again. Like it or not, abortion is with us and it’s a question of possible law tweaks rather than major reform.

    For the record, in an ideal world I would be anti-abortion in most circumstances, but the real world requires pragmatism.

    With ‘pragmatists’ like you, Pete, who needs enemies!?

    Your kind of ‘pragmatism’ will be the death of us all – and for some of us, quite literally.

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  114. Pete George (23,481 comments) says:

    Life means death, can’t escape that.

    Safe abortions are part of medical interventions changing population limiters, in the not too distant past the death rate in childbirth and as an infant was a far larger factor. Should we go back to that plus a few back street abortions for the desperate?

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  115. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    Pete George still pushing the lie that NZers were a nation of cavemen and women until enlightened by sophisticated and educated socialists like him.

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  116. kowtow (8,326 comments) says:

    Some people seem to be arguing that abortion is good,or at least not bad as future criminals are disposed of early.Fine, that being the case, why not dispose of criminals when they DO commit the crime? Similarly the “underpriveliged” same logic. Dispose.
    Economically unproductive……

    Unhappy and depressed…..

    Immigrants…….

    Non Aryans…….

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  117. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    ben 2:24 pm,

    Always missing from this debate is the harm done to the mother forced to carry to term against her will, and the harm done to the child that results. The result Steve Levitt came up with is the product of the fact that on average women who want abortions have good reason to do so. Forcing them to go to term against their will brings an unwanted child into the world who, compared to child born who were wanted, are much more likely to commit crime and live in poverty. The cohort of unwanted children produced is a very violent and underprivileged lot.

    What a load of complete bollocks!
    Most [single] women who have an abortion just view it as an alternative means of contraception. They view it as a backup for if the pill or condom fails. These same women view it as their ‘right’ to have sex when ever and with who ever they choose – and no one is going to tell them how to live their lives – least of all some inconvenient ‘by-product’ of a promiscuous lifestyle.

    These are NOT “good reasons”, as you put it.

    And as has ALREADY been mentioned by others, there are more than sufficient loving couples, who are unable to have their own children, etc., who would be more than happy to adopt and give these children every benefit of being raised in a loving and caring family.

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  118. Pete George (23,481 comments) says:

    Infant mortality rates are now around 5 per 1000 births. A century ago they were around 150/1000.

    there are more than sufficient loving couples

    How many are there?

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  119. AlphaKiwi (682 comments) says:

    Nah, let’s just let them have these unwanted babies, let them abuse them, let them become criminals and commit crime against others and end up in prison costing us millions. That’s a much better idea.

    @kowtow Sterilisation is an underated option.

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  120. American Gardener (556 comments) says:

    Socialism has given us a much more tolerant society than the one you and some of your fascist Christian comrades would have us live in. Labour fucked up the economy with it’s sucking up to Winston Peters and his crazy electoral bribes, tax law changes, re-nationalization of the railways & obese expansion of government but at least it made it legal to fuck for money.

    Small minded bigotry gives us situations like the one described by the brunette at Roarprawn.

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  121. Chthoniid (2,044 comments) says:

    @Yvette

    So how many women are to be ‘helped’ by Labour MP,Steve Chadwick’s, “controversial step of proposing a new law to legalise abortion on request for women up to 24 weeks into a pregnancy”?

    I think the main point is that it takes the issue out of the Crimes Act, hence it might expedite things like access to the RU486.

    It would also tidy up the legal fiction that we don’t have a system of abortion-on-demand.

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  122. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Pete George 2:39 pm,

    Life means death, can’t escape that.

    Safe abortions … changing population limiters … back street abortions

    Don’t you just love the tired old mantras trotted out by socialists’ and their useful idiots like Pete George!?
    They argue for ‘freedom’ and ‘equity’ for all, but have absolutely no idea that that which they preach are the very foundations by which our freedoms shall be stolen.

    Useful idiots, indeed!!!

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  123. American Gardener (556 comments) says:

    Pete George – you are my favourite comment maker on Kiwiblog. Your persistent use of rational arguement in the face of small minded ideological bigotry from the Christian conservative cabal is admirable.

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  124. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Pete George 2:45 pm,

    Infant mortality rates are now around 5 per 1000 births. A century ago they were around 150/1000.

    Do the later infant mortality rates include or EXCLUDE those infants aborted?

    [I think I already know the answer]

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  125. American Gardener (556 comments) says:

    Krazy kiwi – how does providing safe easily accessed abortions make us less free ? That is mind numbingly silly thing to say , even for Christo-fascist.

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  126. kowtow (8,326 comments) says:

    alfakiwi

    so it’s not a wimmins choice or moral issue ,it’s pure economics?

    forced sterilization perhaps?
    anyone for a transistor radio?
    Worked in India…..not!

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  127. kowtow (8,326 comments) says:

    Hey AM garden for some one who bleets on about tolerance etc you do a good line in nasty name calling.

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  128. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    and here is kris k..another sanctimonious christian fascist….

    ..who advocates no support for children once born…

    (thus driving one of the main reasons for abortion….inability to face up to grinding poverty for the forseeable future…under the give-them-nothing rightwing scumbags dictums..)

    can you smell the blood on your hands..?

    you sanctimonious/cant-riddled twat..

    and redbumbiter..really..?

    you deserve the same badge…

    just another fucken hypocrite…in total denial…and above all..totally irrational in any semblance of thought/cogent analysis..

    fucken morons with it..!

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

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  129. Pete George (23,481 comments) says:

    Neither of the rates include abortions, death of women during backstreet abortions, miscarriages, deaths in uterus, nor mother’s deaths.

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  130. American Gardener (556 comments) says:

    kowtow – mate sometimes you just got to enter the paradigm of the enemy. Redbaiter and his Lord of the Flies band of adolescent thugs that lurk on Kiwiblog only understand verbal biffo. Anyone that disagrees with their peculiar brand of Christian fundamentalism and economic rationalism is labelled a knuckle dragging socialist irrespective of what they actually believe.

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  131. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    American Gardener: Just another black hole dense useful idiot conditioned by her Socialist dictators and sponsors.

    Did you get your definition of “rational argument” from your socialist’s handbook on how to systematically corrupt and pervert society? It certainly wasn’t from any dictionary I use.

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  132. Chthoniid (2,044 comments) says:

    @MikeNZ

    I was trying to establish some comment points of agreement on this thread about abortion & contraception. :)

    While the thalamic connections do get established from about week 26 (well past the 1st trimester fwiw), it doesn’t establish consciousness. It might, but even invertebrates can respond to stimuli without being conscious. Annelids can be trained to react to small shocks.

    Given we are typically unaware of, and have no recall of the early stages of our infancy, it suggest that proper consciousness does take time to develop.

    I’ll concede that I have no difficulty with the concept of abortion-on-demand in the first 8 weeks.

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  133. Lucia Maria (2,317 comments) says:

    philu (9192) Says:
    July 3rd, 2010 at 1:48 pm

    “..Who exactly do we want to slaughter again?..”

    muslims..for starters…

    (tho’ you would call it self-defense..eh..?..)

    I for one, do not want to slaughter Muslims.

    MT_Tinman, who made the original accusation at 1:21pm, seems to have gone a bit quiet on this one.

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  134. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “Anyone that disagrees with their peculiar brand of Christian fundamentalism and economic rationalism is labelled a knuckle dragging socialist irrespective of what they actually believe.”

    Its a dirty job but someone’s got to do it.

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  135. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    … has anyone got something shiny? …

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  136. Pete George (23,481 comments) says:

    Admits Christian fundamentalism?

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  137. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    … and that begs the question; what do librarians do to get rid of pesky magpies when they start to terrorise small children on a Saturday afternoon? …

    Are shotguns standard library equipment thesedays?

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  138. reid (16,290 comments) says:

    “I am honestly trying to think of the last time Labour came out with an idea that sounded sensible”

    Ben you’ve had about 8 hours now. Have you come up with anything or still a big fat zero?

    “..were this a country that valued its’ young…and their mothers…”

    So never heard of birthday’s and Mother’s Day, phil? Did you value your mum?

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  139. Lucia Maria (2,317 comments) says:

    I’m still waiting for the verbal biffo to start.

    Though, I don’t think American Gardener’s got the staying power.

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  140. American Gardener (556 comments) says:

    I think the Christo-fascists in this country are very jealous of their counterparts in the United States who have some real influence over politicians. In this country and now in Australia we have been lucky enough to have at least one leader who is an atheist, a woman, a socialist and a feminist. It is impossible to imagine an overtly unmarried, atheist, socialist, female feminist as the POTUS.

    I think the Christo-fascists are probably also jealous of countries ruled by Islamo-fascists where women are second class citizens. I can see Mullah Redbaiter stroking his beard as he condems a women to death for daring to talk about socialism.

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  141. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “Pete George – you are my favourite comment maker on Kiwiblog.”

    When are you going to disabuse yourself of the delusion that anyone here gives a flying fuck about the personal opinions of a some boring washed up self obsessed fired from their last job dicky licking socialist totalitarian?

    Much better if you just wrote him a private love letter.

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  142. kowtow (8,326 comments) says:

    “Enter the paradigm of the enemy.”
    The enemy,the feminazi wing of the NZ Labour Party and their fellow travellers!

    What was until quite recently a crime is now a woman’s choice,to be paid for by the long suffering tax payer,times really have changed .Ironically perhaps judging by some comments here alot of the abortees would be natural Labour party voters anyway .

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  143. AlphaKiwi (682 comments) says:

    @kowtow

    What’s your solution? Status quo or what?

    BTW, I don’t get your “anyone for a transistor radio” and “lived in India … not!” remark.

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  144. American Gardener (556 comments) says:

    “Labour could end up being seen as obsessed with carrying on its social engineering reforms of the last Government.”

    And that is a bad thing ? Homosexual law reform in the 80’s , civil unions last decade and legalisation of prostitution were all good things undertaken by socialist governments. I am sure there are many people who believed the Ian Wishart line that Helen Clark was running a feminist master plan from the 1970’s but I suspect that was nothing but a paranoid fantasy.

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  145. Lucia Maria (2,317 comments) says:

    American Gardener (3:24pm),

    You should really stop now, before you embarrass yourself.

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  146. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “You should really stop now, before you embarrass yourself.”

    Too late for that. Far too late. Who else but a complete moron could consider such views, made utterly worthless by their complete subjectivity, needed posting here??

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  147. reid (16,290 comments) says:

    “I think the Christo-fascists in this country are very jealous of their counterparts in the United States who have some real influence over politicians.”

    Christo-facists, AG, or people who have sincere beliefs?

    Not sure about my fellow Christians, but personally I regard your right-wing US Christian groups as quite insane and I mean that literally. Their extremely peculiar brand of Christianity to me, reflects the strong strand of paternalism that many Americans have in them. Even non-Christian Americans have this strand in them. You can see it in your extremely odd widespread belief that lying to someone is about the worst thing you can ever do.

    The abortion issue in the US is similarly insane, for example with those idiots who go round killing people who run the clinics etc. It’s just fucking nuts.

    So I hardly think you should allege that there is anything to learn from you at all, on this particular issue.

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  148. American Gardener (556 comments) says:

    Did decriminalizing homosexuality make the streets awash with pedophiles and sodomites as predicted by it’s Christo-fascist opponents ? No it didn’t.

    Did repealing s59 lead to our courts being swamped by good parents unfairly charged with child abuse (as predicted by it’s opponents ) ? No it didn’t.

    Similarly changing the abortion laws to more closely align with actual practice will make no difference to the number of abortions.

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  149. eszett (2,401 comments) says:

    Kris K (2594) Says:
    July 3rd, 2010 at 3:12 pm

    American Gardener: Just another black hole dense useful idiot conditioned by her Socialist dictators and sponsors.

    Kris K: Just another black hole dense and utterly useless idiot conditioned by his religious fanatics and sponsors.

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  150. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    An article published in the NZ Herald in 2005. (abridged)

    ——————————–

    There is a little old lady in Auckland with whom Helen Clark would not be very pleased. If she knew who she was, that is.

    Back in the 1970s, when the little old lady was much younger, she used to go to feminist meetings. Not because she was a feminist, but because she and her husband were concerned at the sorts of things being discussed.

    “So I would go off to all these meetings around the country to monitor what was going on,” she says. “I remember there was an outcry at one conference because a woman had brought along her baby son. He wasn’t wanted in the room because he was a male.”

    She also remembers many of the women who attended or addressed these events, among them Helen Clark, Sylvia Cartwright, Marilyn Waring, Cath Tizard, Ros Noonan and Margaret Wilson.

    For decades she has watched as the young feminists of the 70s became some of the most powerful leaders in New Zealand. And for decades she held on to a couple of documents which outlined, all those years ago, a long-term feminist agenda to change New Zealand society by attacking the traditional family unit.

    Lately, however, concerned at just how much of the agenda was being accomplished, she passed the papers to a friend, who in turn sent them to me and to journalist Ian Wishart, as covered in this month’s Investigate magazine, which you can be sure is not on the coffee table at the PM’s house.

    The documents in question were written by another regular at the 1970s women’s meetings who is now more than likely a senior adviser in the Ministry of Social Development.

    Her writings called on the radical feminists of the day – Clark and co – to do everything they could in their spheres of influence to replace or sideline the traditional family.

    “The family distorts all human relationships by imposing on them the framework of economic compulsion, social dependence and sexual repression, our goal must be to create economic and social institutions that are superior to the present family.”

    She then outlined the steps which needed to be taken to overhaul society. They included making abortion free and on demand, integrating sex education into all levels of the school system and ensuring birth control was freely available.

    Coercive family laws should be abolished, she wrote, adding that “the rearing, social welfare and education of children should become the responsibility of society rather than individual parents.”

    De facto relationships should have the same status legally and socially as marriage; all laws “victimising” prostitutes should be abolished; and 24-hour childcare should be introduced to free women from “domestic slavery”.

    It all sounds very familiar and you have to admire the dedication of those who have devoted their careers to seeing these goals achieved. Quietly and systematically, a radical feminist action plan, set in motion around the time I was born, has all but been completed.

    Of course, the feminists of that era also fought for some worthy causes, such as equal pay, for which I am grateful. And might I say I consider Helen Clark to be an extraordinarily capable and intelligent politician. She is also unfailingly polite.

    But from what I hear on the street, there are increasing numbers of ordinary men and women who are wising up to the fact that her values are not theirs.

    Many of them would like to see a change of Government at the coming elections. But the trouble for conservatives is that there is a critical aspect of MMP which most voters do not understand.

    It is this: if you vote for a minority party which does not make the 5 per cent threshold or get anyone into Parliament, your vote could end up helping a party you would not wish to support.

    At the last election there were about 99,000 votes for parties such as Christian Heritage and Aotearoa Legalise Cannabis.

    These votes were discarded from the total pool, thus boosting other parties’ shares. On the night, for example, Labour won 41.26 per cent of the votes, but after the “wasted votes” were eliminated, that share went up to 43.28 per cent.

    Big deal? Well, it gave Labour three more seats, which enabled it to pass the Prostitution Reform Bill, for example. So whether they realised it or not, everyone who voted for an unsuccessful party effectively gave Labour more power.

    The little old lady who used to go to feminist meetings wants a change of Government this election because she dreams of a more pro-family society for her five children and seven grandchildren.

    There are several conservative parties to choose from. But unless she votes for a party with a realistic chance of getting in, she risks wasting her vote or inadvertently supporting a party she does not like.

    I just hope more switched-on little old ladies take to sending interesting documents to the press.

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  151. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    American Gardener 3:30 pm,

    … obviously gets her definition of “good” from the same socialist’s handbook which defines “rational argument”.
    Sadly it doesn’t have a definition for ‘irony’ as evidenced by her 3:24 pm comment. I wonder what her handbook’s definition of ‘fascist’ is …

    Hopefully you don’t have children of your own … imagine the plight of the poor little bastards – no chance whatsoever of coming out as normal well balance human beings.

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  152. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    Eszett “Kris K: Just another black hole dense and utterly useless idiot conditioned by his religious fanatics and sponsors.”

    Doesn’t work Eszett, becasue you socialists are always going to be the brainwashed statist flunkies working to entrench the idea of big all powerful government.

    We’re against it.

    You can’t see that stark difference your brain is in even worse shape than I estimated. (and that’s saying something)

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  153. American Gardener (556 comments) says:

    reid – I am sure you have strongly held beliefs – what is disturbing is when you want to push those strongly held beliefs on the rest of us. Labour fucked up with the Civil Union legislation – it should have just made same sex marriage legal. That wouldn’t have any affect on those who don’t agree with it but would have a massive benefit to those who do.

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  154. American Gardener (556 comments) says:

    “The little old lady who used to go to feminist meetings wants a change of Government this election because she dreams of a more pro-family society for her five children and seven grandchildren.”

    Pro-family society ? What the fuck does that mean ? I have a client family of two lesbians with two daughters. They are a perfectly happy loving family but I suspect they would not meet “the little old lady” or Ian Wishart or the Christo-fascists definition of satisfying family values.

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  155. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “what is disturbing is when you want to push those strongly held beliefs on the rest of us”

    That’s what socialism is all about you blind hypocrite. Whatever Reid’s views are, he seeks to persuade, not force them upon others by means of big powerful government. That’s your strategy you spine chilling Soviet simian.

    (and please, although I know socialists have long ago abandoned the concept of manners and civil behaviour, do not ever include me in your ignorant ill mannered “us”)

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  156. reid (16,290 comments) says:

    RB good post @ 3:41

    It boggles my mind that even now some people give me a blank look when I mention the fact of Liarbore’s various social engineering accomplishments and I’m forced to explain them. Again.

    Fuck some people are dumb.

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  157. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    And Andrei it’s not like you Christians have done much on the front of sex education and contraception. You are best in undermining it with you silly sexual mores and your doctrines.

    @eszett – I am a Christian. Would you care to enlighten the readers as to how our family discussed sexuality? Just what did we talk about? Who was involved? You appear to be an expert on this matter. That or an asshole. I wonder which it is?

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  158. kowtow (8,326 comments) says:

    alfa
    It should be very strictly limited.As it stands it seems to be a lifesytyle choice made due to a lack of personal responsibilty.I have a problem with the wanton destruction of future generations.
    I have a particularly big problem with the so called feminists who insist its a right ,when its not.Coming from the female Labourites its also idealogical and that should be opposed.

    Transistors , in India under Indira Ganhdi men got whipped off the streets and forced sterilized. They got a small radio as a reward. I dont think the practise was too popular with some of the sterilizees who I guess came from the less well to do parts of society.

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  159. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Redbaiter 3:41 pm,

    Further to Red’s comment above – here is a link to (one of) Ian Wishart’s article [PDF] on the Feminist/Lesbian “sisterhood” which has operated within the Labour Party for the last 30+ years:

    The Velvet Underground – Labour’s quiet revolutionaries

    [Excerpt]

    Despite that, Goodger argued that merely capturing people’s hearts and minds didn’t go far enough, that “the sisterhood” had to take control of the Government from within. “The deep roots the [Labour] party has in the working class, through the unions, makes it objectively an ally of the women’s liberation movement. Feminists working within the Labour Party can do much to further the cause of women’s liberation.” Again, John Tamihere’s account of what has happened to Labour eerily reflects that 1973 plan of action. “Oh yeah, there’s definitely a ‘machine’ all right. It’s formidable. It’s got apparatus and activists in everything from the PPTA all the way through. It’s actually even built a counterweight to the Roundtable – Businesses for Social Responsibility. Its intelligence-gathering capabilities are second to none.” Having those activists in place, with the power to write laws and decide what children will be taught in schools, is a dream come true for what Opposition MPs are calling “the lesbian/feminist cabal” running the Labour Government.

    It’s worth reading the whole article.
    And it’s scary just how much of what was planned over thirty years ago has become a reality over the intervening years; much of it during Labour’s last three terms under Helen Clark – one of the original architects of many of these changes.

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  160. Yvette (2,786 comments) says:

    People here do not seem to be addressing what Chadwick proposes, which is to legalise abortion on request, rather than have patients gain the prior approval of two “certifying consultants”, and increase access to medical abortions.

    “In the High Court in 2008, Justice Forrest Miller expressed misgivings about the lawfulness of many abortions and said New Zealand essentially had abortion on request” So Chadwick essentially already has the ‘on request’ part of what she advocates.

    She seems to contradict herself in saying this would encourage abortions to be performed earlier in pregnancy, as she at the same time advocates this new law legalise abortion on request for women up to 24 weeks into a pregnancy. [That is of course up to six months of the nine month pregnancy]

    I earlier posted statistics which indicate currently 70% of abortions are carried out by the 10th weeks [two and a half months]. So who needs the time more than double those 10 weeks?

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  161. reid (16,290 comments) says:

    reid – I am sure you have strongly held beliefs – what is disturbing is when you want to push those strongly held beliefs on the rest of us. Labour fucked up with the Civil Union legislation – it should have just made same sex marriage legal. That wouldn’t have any affect on those who don’t agree with it but would have a massive benefit to those who do.

    AG, I don’t actually have strongly held beliefs on this topic and I’ve never wanted to push any of those strongly held beliefs that I do have, onto anyone. What I do is present what I consider to be logical fact-based arguments to the person and leave it to them to consider. And then if they still don’t agree, I start calling them names.

    Liarbore (it’s spelt L-I-A-R-B-O-R-E, AG) did indeed fuck up the civil union legislation by promulgating any vestige of it in the first place. It wasn’t required and doesn’t make any difference and attacks the family institution by pretending that a rainbow family is a natural one, which evidently (i.e. look around and count em), it’s not. If it was, our global population would be a few thousand. Fact is, no-one hammers gays for being gay in this society, except a few racist skinheads. I’m glad the family fought back and forced Hulun to back off and compromise with the words “civil-union.” I’m fucked if I agree with trying to use language as a vehicle to try and change people’s thinking by associating gays with the sacred and valuable indeed critical, institution of marriage which produces the family unit.

    BTW, suggest we go to GD, to continue?

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  162. berend (1,705 comments) says:

    ben: Always missing from this debate is the harm done to the mother forced to carry to term against her will, and the harm done to the child that results.

    What is really always missing is the harm done to the aborted child. That really doesn’t count. All the other harms have carried much weight in current practise and law.

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  163. kowtow (8,326 comments) says:

    And to those who keep insisting that its crazed Christians who are forcing their views on everyone else,it’s actually the other way round .It’s the socialist”progressives” who are introducing alot of this shit without a mandate from the people ie referendum on important controversial issues. Its just dumped on us in the name of whatever in thing is going at the time or pushed by pri member or faction etc.

    Then the polis womder why no one likes them
    Then the journos and commentariat scream red neck populism
    Then the feminazis scream Christo fascist

    Sue Bradfords smacking shite an excellent example

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  164. Pete George (23,481 comments) says:

    Yvette, I don’t think anyone is really interest in the possible Chadwick legislation, too busy entrenched. Some simply won’t consider any option that involves and abortions at all. I thought the best place to focus is how to reduce the need (and want) for abortions. That might be worthwhile and actually achievable.

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  165. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    American Gardener 3:51 pm,

    “The little old lady who used to go to feminist meetings wants a change of Government this election because she dreams of a more pro-family society for her five children and seven grandchildren.”

    Pro-family society ? What the fuck does that mean ? I have a client family of two lesbians with two daughters. They are a perfectly happy loving family but I suspect they would not meet “the little old lady” or Ian Wishart or the Christo-fascists definition of satisfying family values.

    Once again, just because your socialist’s handbook describes a ‘family’ as “two lesbians”, doesn’t automatically imply that is the definition within decent society. And what chance do the “two daughters” have of being normal and well balanced human beings? I take it they are not the biological children of BOTH ‘parents’ of this “happy loving family”.

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  166. big bruv (13,734 comments) says:

    “Labour fucked up with the Civil Union legislation – it should have just made same sex marriage legal.”

    No, they gave us the best of a whole bunch of bad options.

    Letting homosexual and lesbian couples “marry” opens the door to homosexual and lesbian adoption.

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  167. Pete George (23,481 comments) says:

    A decent society would surely accept various structures of families, acknowledging different circumstances and preferences.

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  168. Lucia Maria (2,317 comments) says:

    Yvette,

    I earlier posted statistics which indicate currently 70% of abortions are carried out by the 10th weeks [two and a half months]. So who needs the time more than double those 10 weeks?

    Probably a way of ensuring that once they have been identified in the womb, disabled babies can be killed before they are born.

    It’s eugenics, basically.

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  169. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “A decent society would surely accept various structures of families,”

    A socialist society can never be a “decent” society. They are mutually exclusive.

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  170. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    Is the relationship between women who have had abortions and depression, anxiety and other mental illnesses a causative or correlative one?

    With each passing year and social stigma of abortion diminishes and, in reverse fashion the evidence mounts of some relationship between abortion and increased mental illness (Royal college warns abortions can lead to mental illness, Abortion exposes women to higher risk of depression, The Psychological Effects of Abortion, etc.)

    Of course there are plenty of studies to show there’s no increased risk. My prediction is that these studies will become the ideologically-driven minority as evidence mounts of a real, and in my opinion causative relationship between abortion and mental illnesses.

    I believe something inside women tells them it’s wrong to snuff out a tiny life, and no amount of external encouragement that it’s all fine can reverse that. Just on that, I wonder how much of the external encouragement comes from women who have themselves aborted, feel secretly guilty and believe seeing abortion more ‘accepted’ is a means to assuage their own feelings?

    I only know three women who have had abortions. One is a Christian and the other two are not. Knowing what they do now, and having the benefit of few years to reflect, none of them would choose to abort again.

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  171. big bruv (13,734 comments) says:

    Pete

    A ‘family” does not exist until there are kids, up until then they remain a ‘couple’.

    I have no issue with two homosexual blokes living together, I have a real issue with them demanding the right to adopt kids.

    Society may in time accept “various structures of families” however, most of us do not want to be told by a socialist government that we MUST accept them.

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  172. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “I thought the best place to focus is how to reduce the need (and want) for abortions. ”

    That’s easy. Stop subscribing to the twisted anti-family amoral values proscribed by you and other Progressives.

    Quote

    “The family distorts all human relationships by imposing on them the framework of economic compulsion, social dependence and sexual repression, our goal must be to create economic and social institutions that are superior to the present family.”

    Unquote.

    Sickening Stalinist crap.

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  173. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Pete George 4:12 pm,

    Yvette, I don’t think anyone is really interest in the possible Chadwick legislation, too busy entrenched. Some simply won’t consider any option that involves and abortions at all. I thought the best place to focus is how to reduce the need (and want) for abortions. That might be worthwhile and actually achievable.

    Many of us don’t accept the CURRENT status quo, Pete.
    Why would we support even further liberalisation of something we already disagree with and believe to be an abhorrent practice!?

    You really don’t get it do you, Pete – that many of us aren’t big on compromise.
    Your acceptance of current practices reveal you are complicit with the aims and intents of those that wish to impose such things upon the rest of us. As I said before; you really are the socialists’ useful idiot. That you can’t see it just shows the level to which they have ‘conditioned’ you. Sad really.

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  174. Pete George (23,481 comments) says:

    They are not forcing it on you bruv, just allowing others freedom of choice.

    My family situation right now is a married couple plus one’s mother.

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  175. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “My family situation right now is a married couple plus one’s mother.”

    Yours right? She’s still tying your shoe laces for you.

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  176. big bruv (13,734 comments) says:

    If the bible bashers kept their god out of this debate they would receive overwhelming support from the people of NZ to retain the current law, they may even achieve their goal of making access to abortions a hell of a lot harder.

    The hard left will already be painting any opposition to the murder on demand bill as the ravings of fundamental christians, they (the left) know that by doing so they silence many who does not agree with the murder on demand bill but who are also dead against being told how to run their lives by religious nutters.

    If those against this bill really want to galvanise public support they would tell the family firsts of this world to keep out of it.

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  177. kowtow (8,326 comments) says:

    big bruv 415. adoption……I think there’s been a change thro the courts . Go to 9 to noon Wednesday at 1130 on RNZ.I couldn’t bring myself to listen to it.

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  178. big bruv (13,734 comments) says:

    Pete

    They can have their freedom of choice, they just should not be allowed to marry.

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  179. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Pete George 4:16 pm,

    A decent society would surely accept various structures of families, acknowledging different circumstances and preferences.

    More BS from the socialists’ handbook.

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  180. Pete George (23,481 comments) says:

    No RB, she is living here while she undergoes palliative radiation treatment. I’m helping her.

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  181. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    ” If those against this bill really want to galvanise public support they would tell the family firsts of this world to keep out of it.”

    Fuck off Bruv. We need confused liberal fuckwits like you on our side like we need to put a bullet through our right temple.

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  182. TEO (33 comments) says:

    Finally, abortion on demand in NZ.

    No more excuses left for my girlfriend/s to deny me my conjugal rights…well, not strictly ‘conjugal’ in the marital sense, but close enough. Come to think of it, abortion on demand gives me another good reason not to tie the knot/s: “Up the duff again dear? Oh well, off to the clinic then. (No need for a long-term commitment.) How about we grab a romantic dinner afterwards and do it all again.”

    I just want to say big ‘thankyou’ to those 70’s feminists who created all these liberated slappers for me to enjoy in the naughties. Girls can do anything/one ;-) Now that’s what I call freedom (for me…the GF says she feels like a sex slave but, as mentioned above, she really has no excuse).

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  183. Yvette (2,786 comments) says:

    Peter George – “Yvette, I don’t think anyone is really interested in the possible Chadwick legislation, too busy entrenched.”

    You are probably right. The nzh poll accompanying the original ‘news’ item, with the loaded question “Should NZ’s 30-year-old abortion laws be reviewed?”, draws the attention of only 100 people [63% Yes, 37% No]

    Meanwhile, the management of abortion law is before the Court of Appeal, with a hearing scheduled for October, after the group Right to Life challenged the Supervisory Committee.

    May 2005 RTL [Right To Life] filed a mandamus in the High Court in Wellington against the ASC for its alleged failure to fulfil its statutory duties. These claims included the failure of the ASC to ensure that the human rights of unborn children received the full protection of the law, the failure to hold certifying consultants accountable for the lawfulness of the abortions they authorised and the failure to stop abortion on demand.
    5-6 October 2010 A hearing has been set down for the Court of Appeal to hear arguments on the appeals of the ASC and RTL. The hearing was originally set down for 4-5 May 2010, however due to the unavailability of Crown counsel the hearing was set down for 23-24 August 2010. It was then changed again due to there not being three judges free to preside at the hearing.

    This may be a reason why Chadwick is wanting to change the law. And the apparent speed at which the courts move [like a flash of bloody lightning] the law will be changed and embedded long before the courts give a decision.

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  184. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    big bruv 4:31 pm,

    When you embrace their language, BB, you reveal yourself as another useful idiot to the cause of socialism: You do their work for them. Think about it – I know it’s hard – but engaging one’s brain is essential if you want to overturn what the socialists have put in place.

    A handy hint from one of those Bible bashing fundamentalist Christian religious nutters.

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  185. big bruv (13,734 comments) says:

    Redbaiter

    Normally I ignore you as you are nothing more than a joke, however on this issue you and I should be united.

    This is about the murder of babies, everything else is unimportant.

    What fucking brain dead wankers like you refuse to admit is that you are playing right into the hands of the socialists, they want fuck wits like you banging on about traditional family values (aka bible bashers) as they are well aware that many people will be put off making a protest about abortion lest they be tagged with the bible basher label.

    Just for once in your angry, pathetic and bullying life drop your paranoia about ‘them commies” and fucking well think about what is at stake here.

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  186. Pete George (23,481 comments) says:

    Thanks Yvette, that adds heaps to the picture. So probably not an out of the blue move from Chadwick. Could be interesting in October.

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  187. big bruv (13,734 comments) says:

    Kris K

    Stick your bible up your arse, this is about the murder of kids, what a pity you see it as nothing more than the chance to recruit more gullible fools into your cult.

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  188. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    A decent society would surely accept various structures of families, acknowledging different circumstances and preferences.

    Surely a decent society would accept nothing less than the very best for its dependent children? A quick look a selfish-gene research, impacts of divorce on kids, physiological impacts of abortion etc would be reveal that a biological mum, biological dad and kids model is the best one for us. Liberals are afraid that acknowledging this truth somehow makes them endorsers of Christianity. That is, of course, quite stupid and the result is plenty of sub-optimal ‘family structures’ now regarded as normal.

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  189. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “however on this issue you and I should be united.”

    No thanks tiger. Bigotry leaves me cold. Especially when its underpinned by such rank ignorance as you frequently display.

    Such as Kris suggests when he says you use their language- here’s a perfect example-

    “Just for once in your angry, pathetic and bullying life drop your paranoia about ‘them commies””

    Pure liberal propaganda. You’re one of them Bruv. Get out of our fucking foxhole and go fight along with your commie mates.

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  190. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    big bruv 4:51 pm,

    Stick your bible up your arse, this is about the murder of kids, what a pity you see it as nothing more than the chance to recruit more gullible fools into your cult.

    Another black hole dense ‘Christophobe’ with even less comprehension skills than Pete George – and that’s saying something. You really should invest in a good dictionary and look up the word ‘irony’ – then re-read what you just wrote above …

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  191. Yvette (2,786 comments) says:

    This is who is pushing Chadwick [despite the wish of MPs that this just go away] –
    The Abortion Supervisory Committee has repeatedly urged Parliament to review the Contraception, Sterilisation and Abortion Act, which states the legal grounds for abortion, but MPs avoid the issue.” – stuff.co.nz

    because
    5-6 October 2010 A hearing has been set down for the Court of Appeal to hear arguments on the appeals of the ASC and RTL re: a mandamus in the High Court in Wellington against the ASC for its alleged failure to fulfil its statutory duties. These claims included the failure of the ASC to ensure that the human rights of unborn children received the full protection of the law, the failure to hold certifying consultants accountable for the lawfulness of the abortions they authorised and the failure to stop abortion on demand.”
    http://righttolife.org.nz/2010/judicial-review-of-the-performance-of-the-abortion-supervisory-committee-summary-of-right-to-life-court-action/

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  192. big bruv (13,734 comments) says:

    Redbaiter and Kris K

    Can I just clear this up, you two are more concerned about the ‘teachings’ of the bible than you are about the murder of thousands of kids?

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  193. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    Fuck off Bruv. Its because of confused ignorant idiots like you that the left have ascended to power. Too damn stupid to understand that the Balkanisation of our society into fractured groups pro this and anti that has been their core strategy. Did you read the articles above? Does anything ever really enter your feeble brain or does it all just bounce of the concrete skullcap?

    You seem to be only capable of concepts that are veneer thin. Just fuck off. YOU gave the left their beachhead. YOU, bit by bit, have given them all of our territory. All the ground the left have won, they have won because of useful idiots like YOU. Go away. Until you understand that we will only ever defeat the left through unity, you’re only helping them.

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  194. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    American Gardener, 3.03pm said:

    Krazy kiwi – how does providing safe easily accessed abortions make us less free ? That is mind numbingly silly thing to say , even for Christo-fascist.

    My first post on this thread was 3:53pm.. some 50mins after your asinine comment above.

    The only thing mind numbingly silly is the lengths you’ll go to to use the phrase ‘Christo-fascist’.

    Is it on your pinko-bingo card?

    Did you score some points?

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  195. bhudson (4,738 comments) says:

    Yvette,

    Your stats seem to show 30% of all abortions occuring in the last two weeks of the (current) allowable timeframe.

    It would seem to me that some people believe that there is a ‘latent demand’ and that by extending it out to 24 weeks, more women will be able to exercise their choice/right.

    For the record, my position on this is that I support the right of all parties to hold their views – and to hold strongly to them. In a previous discussion that grew from the Sikh headress issues at the Manukau Cossie Club I posted a view on tolerance and the threat from intolerance. I hold to that premise (but won’t bore anyone by reposting it.)

    I also support the rule of law and currently our law allows for abortions under certain conditions. By all means work to amend the law if you don’t agree with it, but it is that law that stands today.

    Personally I would vote to retain the status quo. Not because I am a murderer or do not value life, but I feel there are situations that warrant abortion and to repeal the law we have would compromise those. It is not as simple to say that repealing the law would fix the problem – it might address some peoples’ concens about sanctity of live but at a cost of introducing other problems – for the pregant woman and potentially society.

    I do think we should change the process, especially the ‘approvals’. The approval process we currently have is demeaning and humiliating to the woman. It treats her like a child or mental delinquent. I don’t know that ‘on demand’ is what I would vote for, but certainly I think the process should be improved.

    There you go – happy to fess up to my view but fundamentally this is about be prepared to respect opposing views (without having to change your own.)

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  196. big bruv (13,734 comments) says:

    Redbaiter

    “Too damn stupid to understand that the Balkanisation of our society into fractured groups pro this and anti that has been their core strategy.”

    That is exactly what I said earlier you fucking moron, on the issue of state legalised child murder this is exactly how the left managed to achieve their goal.
    The problem you have is that you live in a world where you see commies under every bed and around every corner, you are nothing more than a bitter and twisted little man who thinks he is defending freedom.

    You are no more a defender of freedom than Helen Clark, all you want to do is impose your own bible based rules on our society.
    As said before you stupid old man, this issue should be one that unites thousands and thousands of Kiwis, all that we have to do is keep the bible bashers (and idiots like you) out of it.

    This is not a religious issue, it is a matter of what is right and what is wrong, what a pity you cannot see that.

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  197. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    krazykiwi 5:24 pm,

    I think she thinks we’re siamese twins ;)
    ( I told you this would lead to trouble, KK)

    And I’m pretty sure ‘Christo-fascist’ is one of the phrases in her copy of the socialists’ handbook that they say to repeat as often as possible …

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  198. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “You are no more a defender of freedom than Helen Clark, all you want to do is impose your own bible based rules on our society.”

    Whatever I am, I am not so stupid that I need to keep repeating the same false allegation time after time after time. Even Kris acknowledges that I am not religious. Why is it you have to continually lie about it?

    I’ll tell you. Because your brain is putty in the hands of the Progressives who control our culture, and you’re just a flitting shoal fish too stupid to see how you’re being used.

    You can’t read, you can’t comprehend, you just keep gasping out the same hollow clichés like a fish out of water.

    Kris may have his social objectives but he is committed to persuasion to obtain them. In a free society he can do this.

    Socialists on the other hand intend to force them upon everybody by means of legislation. Just read what has been said above. If you cannot appreciate this simple distinction, then you’re just wasting your own time and everybody else’s.

    You’ve never got this point, you can never deal with it, and you can never come back with anything but false allegations. Fuck off and talk to your equally destructive mate Clint. We on the true right do not need anyone who does not know what direction to shoot in.

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  199. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    big bruv 5:31 pm,

    This is not a religious issue, it is a matter of what is right and what is wrong …

    … will the irony never cease?
    … is this guy the socialists’ version of the Energiser Bunny™ on steroids?

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  200. Yvette (2,786 comments) says:

    Yvette, Your stats seem to show 30% of all abortions occuring in the last two weeks of the (current) allowable timeframe.

    That is what the statistics show. But, that doesn’t detail when these women made their minds up.
    I personally see the status quo as being a reasonable position in a difficult issue.

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  201. Pete George (23,481 comments) says:

    I am not so stupid that I need to keep repeating the same false allegation time after time

    That’s what you do, frequently. Maybe not stupid, but deliberate. You think it’s how you will “win”. That’s stupid.

    “you can never come back with anything but false allegations” is how you operate.

    You are more of a fundamentalist Christian than I am a socialist.

    And your idealist political ranting here has nothing to do with the Chadwick abortion proposal.

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  202. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “… is this guy the socialists’ version of the Energiser Bunny™ on steroids?”

    He’s exactly the kind of moron the left depend upon to give them a beachhead in their age old assault on liberty.

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  203. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “That’s what you do, frequently.”

    What false allegation do I frequently make that is comparable to Big Bruv’s allegation that I am a bible basher? Here’s your chance to A) make a name for yourself or B) confirm once again that your just another weak leftist liar with nothing but falsities and smears. Come on. Show us what you’ve got.

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  204. American Gardener (556 comments) says:

    “He’s exactly the kind of moron the left depend upon so desperately to give them a beachhead in their age old assault on liberty.” – another gem from the patented Glenn Beck Silly-Bigot-Phrase-A-Matron, only $99.95 from all leading Christo-fascist fundamentalist churches.

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  205. big bruv (13,734 comments) says:

    There are many things that you frequently do Redbaiter, I dare say some of them have nearly sent you blind.

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  206. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Redbaiter 6:00 pm,

    Sadly, Red, I think Pete’s already achieved ‘A’ … but it’s founded upon ‘B’.

    … but I’m open to being convinced otherwise (holds breath).

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  207. Fale Andrew Lesa (473 comments) says:

    :D

    I think a lot us are losing the centre of this discussion, according to the Labour MP that is making the proposal here: the current law on abortion is out-dated and needs to be further liberalised.

    Bare in mind that it hasn’t changed in 30 odd years.

    This shouldn’t be a debate about the Pro’s and Con’s of abortion in general, a debate should structure itself around the current NZ law and whether further liberalisation is good or bad.

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  208. big bruv (13,734 comments) says:

    Go easy AG, it might be time for Redbaiter to change his incontinence pants, perhaps that is why he is so grumpy this evening.

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  209. big bruv (13,734 comments) says:

    Kris

    Can you speak for yourself or do you have to run everything past the geriatric old fart first?

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  210. Lucia Maria (2,317 comments) says:

    Big Bruv

    …on this issue you and I should be united.
    This is about the murder of babies, everything else is unimportant.

    And then you don’t want the “Bible bashers” involved?

    Many years ago, I used to debate abortion from a non-religious perspective, and I really didn’t believe in much – except life. And you find, in debating abortion, that there are many types of people who believe abortion is wrong, without the need for religion to tell them so. It is that kind of debate.

    If you show ordinary people what abortion is, if you make them really think about it, you’ll find a great number of them also will find an abhorrence for abortion. Mostly in the older gestations, because those unborn babies are too much like the born babies everyone sees. But limits on abortion are a good start, and I’m happy to aim for that, even though I would ban all of them.

    However, the people on the ground who make the most headway in the abortion war, and is a war, are religious. They are the ones out there, on the ground, with their signs and pictures and leaflets showing people what abortion is. Not so much in NZ yet, but it’s starting.

    Religious people are helping get this issue into public consciousness.

    Right to Life (religious types) are the ones that are working on forcing this issue in the courts.

    Most everyday people don’t find it to be that much of a cause that they’ll spend that much time on.

    And you want to fight this war without us. Are you mad.

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  211. questlove (242 comments) says:

    In the first trimester the life form that we call ‘fetus’ has nothing that ‘distinguishes’ it as human. This separation is significant as we think nothing of killing non-human life every-day e.g. animals, plants, germs, tumors etc.
    No doubt the fetus is ‘potential’ human life and left undisturbed it would most likely develop into human life. It’s a potential human being. Potential properties are not the same as actual properties and potential rights are not the same as actual rights. Having human DNA does not make it a human being with the rights of a human being.

    So effectively a fetus is part of a woman’s body. A woman has the right to decide what she can and can’t do with her body.

    Regarding abortion on demand, if a woman chooses to carry to term, then most if not all her care is subsided. If the same woman wants to end her pregnancy then this care should also be covered. The government should not discriminate through using it’s money to fix her reproductive choice away from which it dislikes.

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  212. Banana Llama (1,043 comments) says:

    I’m glad my mother didn’t have an abortion.

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  213. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    Fuck off Bruv, get out that old jar of vaseline and head around to the North Korean Gardener’s place. That’s if there’s any left in it after your trysts with Petey baby.

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  214. big bruv (13,734 comments) says:

    Lucia

    ” that there are many types of people who believe abortion is wrong, without the need for religion to tell them so. It is that kind of debate.”

    I agree, I am one of them.

    “But limits on abortion are a good start, and I’m happy to aim for that, even though I would ban all of them.”

    Again, we agree.

    “Religious people are helping get this issue into public consciousness.”

    Good, but do it in a way that does not scare off those of us who do not want to end every meeting with a bloody prayer to your God. Include us, do not drive us away, we far outnumber you.

    “And you want to fight this war without us. Are you mad”

    No, not without you, alongside you, just leave your bibles at home and let this be an issue about the evil that is abortion, do not use it (as Kris K wants to do) as a recruitment drive for your religion and your God.

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  215. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    Thanks for all that subjective shit Questlove. Here’s a question for you. If the foetus was in a test tube in a laboratory, would you kill it? If not, why not?

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  216. big bruv (13,734 comments) says:

    questlove

    “same woman wants to end her pregnancy then this care should also be covered.”

    At seven, or eight months?

    Piss off, if you want to commit state sanctioned murder then pay for it yourself.

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  217. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “Include us, do not drive us away, we far outnumber you.”

    More left wing language. We’re in the majority (like the Nazis once were) so we must be right. Lame leftist fuckwit.

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  218. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “if you want to commit state sanctioned murder then pay for it yourself.”

    What? Murder (as you term it) is a matter of who pays for it? What a moron.

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  219. big bruv (13,734 comments) says:

    Has the nurse not changed your incontinence nappy yet Redbaiter?

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  220. Banana Llama (1,043 comments) says:

    Hold on now Big Bruv i would like some government money for a Repeater bolt and a 160 round drum so i can check out at 120-1.

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  221. Rex Widerstrom (5,349 comments) says:

    DPF notes:

    I would like to see fewer abortions, but I believe the way you achieve that is through education and health services, and reforming the Adoption Act.

    I agree. DPF’s former boss Jenny Shipley very bravely once said she wanted to see the abortion rate plummet, but that the only viable way to do so was to improve education and make contraception free and freely available (I think she said with no age restriction, but I could be wrong about that). I think was about the only subject on which I agreed with her wholeheartedly.

    In any instance where the law meets human behaviour (and particularly where an issue of morality arises) any ststute is going to be an imperfect solution. But lawmakers who actually cared about a just and moral outcome would try their best to introduce laws which addressed the entirety of the problem and proposed a holistic set of regulations aimed at achieving the best possible solution.

    But instead of pragmatic solutions what we get is ideological nutcases like Chadwick or Garrett proposing extreme answers to moral dilemmas which attack only one narrow aspect of the problem. IMHO it’s a cop out from their greater responsibility… and in this case that responsibility is, quite literally, one of life and death.

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  222. big bruv (13,734 comments) says:

    Banana Llama

    Mate, I dream about NZ being 120 for one….

    Oh…you meant something else, sorry about that old chap. :)

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  223. Pete George (23,481 comments) says:

    questlove at 6:14 pm

    So effectively a fetus is part of a woman’s body.

    That’s a simple concept a lot of men don’t understand.

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  224. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “Has the nurse not changed your incontinence nappy yet Redbaiter?”

    Always the same Bruv, beaten on the facts, you come back with these pathetic attempts at ridicule. Another clear leftist identifier.

    Toilet jokes. Pffft.. It don’t do it dumbfuck. You’re witless, wrong, and not the least funny.

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  225. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “That’s a simple concept a lot of men don’t understand.”

    So its a “B” right Pete. How unsurprising. Lies and smears, all you commie cowards ever have.

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  226. RKBee (1,344 comments) says:

    Still going…

    MikeNZ@ 1:38 pm
    Calling me a plonker for stating the fact is a controversial step… You must be the you people.. and I must be the other.. keep posting.. the essence of being a human.

    Not a good analogy I know… but abortions like war it should never happen… and we should do all we can to avoid it from being the case… but sometimes it is necessary and unavoidable in some cases.. and we should have the right to do so in both cases.. and the decision to do so should never be and never is taken lightly.

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  227. Fale Andrew Lesa (473 comments) says:

    “I would like to see fewer abortions, but I believe the way you achieve that is through education and health services, and reforming the Adoption Act”.

    New Zealand has one of the greatest education systems in the Western world, our health services are internationally recognised and our adoption policies are relatively healthy.

    I’m curious to see the Scandanavian abortion figures.

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  228. questlove (242 comments) says:

    @Big Bruv – My post said “First trimester”.

    @Redbaiter – If a fetus was in a laboratory then it’s potential rights wouldn’t be in conflict with a woman’s actual rights. P.s. If it’s all subjective I’d rather have science’s version.

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  229. big bruv (13,734 comments) says:

    Redbaiter

    I would love to debate an issue with you without it becoming a slanging match, sadly you are not able to post anything that does not include abuse.

    What I have noticed is that you become more abusive the more you are being beaten in an argument, you also have the bullies insane desire to ensure that you must have the last word on every issue.

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  230. Inventory2 (10,301 comments) says:

    you walking templates of hypocrisy…..

    (btw..the quote/’solution’ from farrar…is so blindingly obvious in its’ intellectual-paucity…

    ..i don’t need to bother dismantling it..)

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

    [DPF: Good bye Phil. Your hysteria about blood from aborted babies on my hands is so far over the offensiveness scale that your time here is over for a very long time]

    Hallelujah! The standard of punctuation and the standard of debate at Kiwiblog are on the improve. Vale Phil.

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  231. big bruv (13,734 comments) says:

    questlove

    So it did, my apologies.

    Still, I am not keen on funding the murder of kids at any age.

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  232. nickb (3,686 comments) says:

    Tis a great day IV2, thanks for pointing that out, I have phil RIP’d. Still, good to see him gone.

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  233. Lucia Maria (2,317 comments) says:

    Bruv,

    …but do it in a way that does not scare off those of us who do not want to end every meeting with a bloody prayer to your God. Include us, do not drive us away, we far outnumber you.

    Prayer bothers you? You need to just close your ears and breathe deeply. That’s why religious people are so strong on the anti-abortion front – the strength is supernatural. Though, I haven’t noticed any prayers on this thread.

    Most of the “Bible bashing” has been by anti-Christians on this thread as well. For myself, I don’t need religious arguments against abortion – it’s dead easy with just the plain human arguments only. I only respond in kind when someone brings God into it, as they have done (earlier comments on God killing babies in the womb, for instance).

    You may also find that ordinary people aren’t as freaked out by religion as you are.

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  234. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “@Redbaiter – If a fetus was in a laboratory then it’s potential rights wouldn’t be in conflict with a woman’s actual rights.”

    Sorry, is that a yes or a no?

    Would you kill the fetus? Yes No. Cross out the one not applicable.

    Then say why.

    Is that too hard??

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  235. Yvette (2,786 comments) says:

    Lucia Maria – “Right to Life (religious types) are the ones that are working on forcing this issue in the courts.

    And in the courts RTL will challenge, in October, just how legal have been the actions of the Abortion Supervisory Committee.
    ["In the High Court in 2008, Justice Forrest Miller expressed misgivings about the lawfulness of many abortions and said New Zealand essentially had abortion on request." – NZ Herald]
    This is why Chadwick is bringing this up.

    This is now the time to start pushing for the so-called Conscience Vote to be replaced with party positions on all issues, or Binding Referenda .

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  236. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “sadly you are not able to post anything that does not include abuse. What I have noticed is that you become more abusive the more you are being beaten in an argument, you also have the bullies insane desire to ensure that you must have the last word on every issue.”

    All of that is just PC crap Bruv, framed in the exact language the left love, and that identifies you as suffering the same brain damage. You were the first to post isolated off topic insults. That don’t matter a damn. The real issue is that the political ignorance and confusion that underpins your posturing makes you far more harmful to the right than anything the dedicated left can ever come up with.

    You’re a dangerous fool.

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  237. questlove (242 comments) says:

    @ Redbaiter – As it’s not a human life, I would kill it if I had a good reason to do so.

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  238. Pete George (23,481 comments) says:

    At what point is a fetus no longer an integral part of the woman’s body?

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  239. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    So here’s a conundrum for the “it’s part of her body” crowd.

    For centuries we’ve become better a sustaining premature birth. 100 years ago, sustaining a prem life at 30 weeks would have been ludicrous. Today 24 is perfectly doable, 20 is achievable. In the future it will be 12 or less. No question of if, just when.

    So if the life can be sustained by something other than the mother, what right does she have to kill her child under the guise of having rights over her body? Under Chadwicks proposal, a mother would be able to kill a 24-week old viable human in utero, but be guilty of murder if she unplugged the incubator of her 24-week prem baby.

    Further, isn’t a mother having to wake in the night to feed the child denying her body sleep, which is a right? If an infant dies at night because a mother chooses the right to sleep, should she be guilty of murder? Surly she’s just exercising the same right to her body that a woman acceding to an aborting is?

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  240. big bruv (13,734 comments) says:

    Lucia Maria

    I am far from freaked out by religion, as I have always said, I will defend your right to worship your god until the day I die.

    However, this issue is not one that should be hijacked by the family firsts and Kris K’s of this world, it is far too important to let them do that.
    There are thousands and thousands of ordinary Kiwis who would get in behind a movement to keep the law as it is if only the religious zealots would keep out of it, I repeat, this should be about the rights and wrongs of abortion, NOTHING ELSE.

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  241. Fletch (6,296 comments) says:

    Life means death, can’t escape that.

    Safe abortions are part of medical interventions changing population limiters, in the not too distant past the death rate in childbirth and as an infant was a far larger factor. Should we go back to that plus a few back street abortions for the desperate?

    So many comments since this morning, can’t quite catch up on all of them. But to answer Pete George’s comment above (which also matches DPF’s about women having to “flee to Australia” or to have unsafe abortions here…)

    Anybody would think we are talking about a life-saving operation! Like heart transplants or something. It’s being spoken about like it’s something we can’t do without and that there is a HUGE need for, when in reality – if you follow the cause/effect back to the beginning – it all comes down to sexual promiscuity and selfishness.

    Abortions only exist (for the most part) because people want to have sex when and where they like with whomever they want just for fun, and when they don’t use contraception, or it fails, they kill the baby. That’s not what sex is supposed to be about. In the past we had a strong sense of propriety about these things; yes, I’m certain there was the odd backstreet abortion but nothing like the slaughter we have today.
    If sex were confined to married couples or even those in committed relationships, there would be nowhere near the abortion levels we see now. Abortion is used as a contraceptive.

    I don’t see how more education is going to fix the problem when the ‘education’ we’re putting forth to our young people is the message that they can **** whoever they want to as long as they wear a condom.

    That is also the whole reason for Gardasil. Oops, if you have sex you might get pregnant, so you better wear a condom. Opps, the condom doesn’t protect against HPV at all (which causes 90% of cervical cancer) so we better give our young girls shots to prevent that. God forbid that we should tell them to have some self-control and to save themselves for marriage.

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  242. Pete George (23,481 comments) says:

    Today 24 is perfectly doable, 20 is achievable. In the future it will be 12 or less. No question of if, just when.

    Without getting in to the validity of that statement….what if it gets down to where artificial conception and growth/survival becomes possible? Every egg is a potential life, should that have a right to survive?

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  243. Viking2 (11,420 comments) says:

    Seems to me there are two reasons why abortion numbers have risen. Our ethnic mix has changed and for some its an age old method of contraception and entirely acceptable. This is encouraged here in NZ by the fact that the service is legal and without money cost.

    Jack5 on GD today asked the question, who asked NZer’s if we wanted immigration in the form we have and who decided which ethnic groups would be included.
    As we have this ethnic mix we have also inherited their ways and means. We don’t necessarily agree with their ways and the only way to change that is education of those groups as the come here to live.

    Recently had a discussion with a nice Indian Lady from mainland India. Forty years old,arranged marriage with one daughter.
    We talked about the scenario of arranged marriage and she indicated that it was OK. Asked her if she was really happy. Answer yes but the eyes belied that truth. Without doubt a second wife, been subject to having foetus aborted and really a sad lady underneath it all.

    But that’s where they come from and its their culture so to speak.

    Without an ethnic breakdown in the figure we won’t know where to target the education but we can stop the taxpayer being the provider of largess by ensuring that no taxpayer money is provided in any way for abortions or abortion supervisory.
    Like all these things demand is created by the size of the purse. In this case open ended.

    This charade is a waste of taxpayers money and is the individuals responsibility. Like many bits of Govt. expenditure it should be stopped before we go broke rather than later.

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  244. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “However, this issue is not one that should be hijacked by the family firsts and Kris K’s of this world, it is far too important to let them do that.”

    Nobody has hijacked anything.(unless its your brain) Kris K is as entitled to a viewpoint as anyone.

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  245. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    ‘I would kill it if I had a good reason to do so.’

    And such a reason would be….??

    Like trying to draw blood from a stone.

    What reason would induce you to snuff out the life in that test tube?

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  246. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    Pete, I perfer to look at it from the angle of responsbilities. If you have sex and a life is the result of that process, then you (or a caring society) has a responsibility to sustain it.

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  247. Fletch (6,296 comments) says:

    Viking, hmmm interesting. I’m not so sure though. With some ethnic groups you may be right, but some other groups have inherited the idea of abortion from Western society. I may be wrong but I can’t see it normal for those from the Islands, for instance, to be having abortions in the past. These people have always put great stock in children and family.

    Perhaps someone else from there might have an opinion of what the culture was like.

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  248. Pete George (23,481 comments) says:

    RB, you have barely discussed the Chadwick/abortion issue here, you have been doing your usual political posturing and attacking indiscriminately. Maybe that’s not your idea of hijacking, but….

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  249. Viking2 (11,420 comments) says:

    KK. As I pointed out above that’s just a view of yours and its doesn’t allow for centuries of culture from other places.
    Not saying your right or wrong but pointing out the world doesn’t come in one view.

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  250. Johnboy (16,084 comments) says:

    As the comments pass 250. One comes to believe that abortion may be the best option for a world full of opinionated people.

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  251. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “RB, you have”

    Gawd you’re a sickening coward Pete. You make yellow false allegations against me you cannot even try to substantiate, and then have the arrogance to come back with another load of equally worthless subjective bullshit. And you’ve been as off topic (if you want to all it that) as anyone. Go away. You’re utterly loathsome in your shameless never ending self deceit.

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  252. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    However, this issue is not one that should be hijacked by the family firsts and Kris K’s of this world, it is far too important to let them do that.

    @bruv – I don’t see it as hijacking… because other groups or interests aren’t, by and large, making much noise. Should Kris K, Family First et al lower their volumes to the loudest other concerned group?

    It’s the objective that is important – saving vulnerable lives. If you want to do that because you fear the great spagetti monster God, and I want to do that because I enjoy having a cause.. isn’t that ok?

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  253. Johnboy (16,084 comments) says:

    http://www.labour.org.nz/mps/hon-steve-chadwick

    Why are so many of you getting so excited regarding the stupid comments of one who looks as gormless and ugly as this may I ask?

    Don’t forget the good people of Rotorua fired her last election.

    She is inconsequential.

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  254. Yvette (2,786 comments) says:

    A total of 17,550 abortions were performed in New Zealand in the year ended December 2009.

    “Ethnicity
    Women having an abortion can state more than one ethnicity on the abortion notification form. For this reason, the number of abortions by ethnicity sum to more than the total number of abortions.
    In 2009, there were 10,110 abortions to women who identified with the European ethnic group (either as their only ethnic group or as one of their ethnic groups). There were 4,130 abortions to women who identified with the Māori ethnic group, 2,890 women identified with the Asian ethnic group, 2,360 women identified with the Pacific ethnic group, and 220 women identified with the MELAA (Middle Eastern, Latin American, and African) group. Of the 20 women in the ‘Other’ ethnic group, almost all identified with the New Zealander ethnic group.” 

    Maori population is close to 15% total, so abortions would be roughly 2,632 to reflect that, but they were 4,130.

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  255. big bruv (13,734 comments) says:

    KK

    All I care about is saving these kids, for the third time, NOTHING ELSE MATTERS.

    To save these kids we need to mobilise as many Kiwis as possible, we are simply not going to achieve that by letting the religious nutbars take the lead in this debate.

    The left will do their best to ensure it is a battle between bible thumping christians and the so called ‘womans right to choose” group ( which really should be renamed ‘womans right to kill”), if that is how the battle is seen in the eyes of the general public then they will win.

    The battle should be led by a non religious person, debate them on the points that they cannot defend (child murder is indefensible), the minute you let them bring the debate back to religion they win.

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  256. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “NOTHING ELSE MATTERS.”

    A lie. You have used this debate to engage in yet another of your deranged bigoted and unreasonable attacks on Christians. Your main interest is clearly to slander Christians and anyone who supports them.

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  257. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    [DPF] I would like to see fewer abortions, but I believe the way you achieve that is through education and health services, and reforming the Adoption Act.

    I’m sure it’s already been observed, but today we have better education, better health services, more liberal abortion legislation.. and surprise surprise… more abortions. So your belief looks a little unsupported by the facts IMO.

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  258. Pete George (23,481 comments) says:

    Pete, I perfer to look at it from the angle of responsbilities. If you have sex and a life is the result of that process, then you (or a caring society) has a responsibility to sustain it.

    That is my ideal too, and I personally am committed to sex only in a committed relationship. But many view sex differently. With the widespread casual sex in society these days what would be to flow on effects if all pregnancies where not aborted? Would there be greater social and “family” chaos now?

    BTW, I think abortion rates have been easing back a bit over the past few years.

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  259. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    @bruv – what is more impotant to you: what I believe, or why I believe it? If I believe the same thing as you, but for a different reason should you reject my efforts?

    As for “The battle should be led by a non religious person”, that’s just silly. It should be led by someone passionate, rational, capable, will and able. Their religious beliefs, eye colour and favorite jam are all unimportant.

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  260. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “That is my ideal too, and I personally am committed to sex only in a committed relationship.”

    How are you getting on with your dog lately?

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  261. big bruv (13,734 comments) says:

    KK

    Let me repeat myself, I could not care less what you believe in, my point here is that to win this fight we need to get as many Kiwis on side as possible.

    The harsh reality is that many Kiwis will be turned away from this debate if it is led by somebody like McCoskrie.

    All I am saying is that we need to ensure that this battle does not become one of religion v Abortion rights

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  262. Pete George (23,481 comments) says:

    RB, what’s with you today, that’s about the 14th time you have tried to attack me with bullshit unrelated to the topic or to what I have posted. Seems like a manic obsession.

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  263. Viking2 (11,420 comments) says:


    The battle should be led”
    Question, why is this a battle?
    Reason, because certain groups have decided that its their job to control others lives.

    All you self serving lefties should just butt out and allow people to make their own decisions, allowing to reap the consequences and to pay for the costs and the results.

    BB, RD KK et al are all just trying to impose their own beliefs and opinions on others in a matter which is essentially none of their damn business.
    So piss off you sticky beaks and go work for freedom of the individual and freedom of choice. Anything else makes you no better than the very individuals you constantly criticise.

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  264. slightlyrighty (2,472 comments) says:

    There is an aspect to abortion, and a woman’s right to choose, as dictated by woman, that is very disquieting to me.

    Those who advocate abortion on demand, and a woman’s right to choose to be a parent, ignore the fact that there are 2 people involved in the pregnancy. A Woman who finds herself pregnant has the sole choice as to wether or not she becomes a parent. If she chooses not to, then the man has no legal say in the matter.

    If she chooses to be a parent, than the man becomes a liable parent with financial responsibility to that child, again having no legal say in the matter.

    So we have a situation where the rights of a father are ignored. The status of parenthood is dictated by one party on another and there is no legal obligation to take the rights of the other party into account. A man can be denied parenthood, or have the mantle of parenthood imposed, purely at the discretion of the woman involved.

    Planned parenthood is by far and away preferable to an unplanned pregnancy, for all parties involved. I do support a womans or a man’s right to choose to be a parent or not, and the contraceptive pill, condoms and many other methods exist to make planned parenthood a simple decision to make. The fact that 17000 woman could not deal with consequences of not making that decision is troubling.

    Yes, woman’s body, woman’s right. But surely the time to make that decison should have been when it was possible to prevent a pregnancy, and not to terminate one?

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  265. big bruv (13,734 comments) says:

    KK

    “As for “The battle should be led by a non religious person”, that’s just silly. It should be led by someone passionate, rational, capable, will and able. Their religious beliefs, eye colour and favorite jam are all unimportant.”

    Of course they are unimportant, however, that is not how the left will fight this battle, we need to get real here.

    We need to appreciate that the left are the past masters at framing the argument, we cannot afford to give them any ammunition, can you imagine the way the left leaning media would moderate a debate between the anti abortionists led by McCoskrie and a rabid feminist who supports child murder?, very quickly the debate would be all about the bible v choice, the death of innocent children would be forgotten, that is exactly what the left want to happen.

    It is far better to keep the debate focused on the murder of babies.

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  266. big bruv (13,734 comments) says:

    V2

    I do not want to control anybodies life, I just want them to have the chance of living.

    You seem to be supporting state sanctioned murder of innocent babies.

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  267. Viking2 (11,420 comments) says:

    Yvette (855) Says:
    July 3rd, 2010 at 7:16 pm

    A total of 17,550 abortions were performed in New Zealand in the year ended December 2009.

    Yvette, is there any information as to the costs to the taxpayer?

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  268. Rex Widerstrom (5,349 comments) says:

    Fletch suggests:

    God forbid that we should tell them to have some self-control and to save themselves for marriage.

    Marriage or a life of unremitting celibacy… What about the right’s supposed commitment to choice (and consequences)? If I choose not to marry, all women should withhold sex? That’s me and DPF screwed (metaphorically but definitely not literally) for a start. Thanks for nothing (literally :-P ), Fletch.

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  269. Yvette (2,786 comments) says:

    The question of abortion has been presented on SHORTLAND STREET in recent weeks as being entirely a woman’s right to choose, as dictated by woman.
    And before you scoff at the programme, just realise where it figures in the group being discussed.

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  270. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “RB, what’s with you today, that’s about the 14th time you have tried to attack me”

    Pete, if you read back up the thread, you will find that in the main, I have only ever responded to your completely unwarranted attacks on and false allegations towards myself.

    You are a typical leftist, who demands respect when the ideas you propagate here are so offensive to many people they make you due only contempt. And when those ideas are met with the contempt that is their due, you try to categorise it as abuse of your self.

    Which is why Political Correctness is such an evil and deceitful concept. It allows a pipeline for all kinds of evil socialist ideas to flow through to society, and immediate retribution against anyone who challenges them. Thank god this era is fast drawing to a close.

    What you need to do is snap out of your mental time warp and come to grips with the reality that the days you could shelter behind the counterfeit social mores that the Progressives once enforced are long over. Your ideas will be exposed for the evil they are, and if you want to see that as abuse of yourself, that’s really not my problem.

    “committed relationship’.. pffft, what PC crap.

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  271. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “The question of abortion has been presented on SHORTLAND STREET in recent weeks”

    You do know about Gramsci I presume?

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  272. Johnboy (16,084 comments) says:

    Don’t blame the rest of the world Rex if you can’t get a woman to marry you.

    Its not our fault you are a weirdo.

    As for David, I could not possibly comment.

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  273. Viking2 (11,420 comments) says:

    BB; We all do it everyday.
    That’s just an unrealistic pious attitude.
    The continuing demand goes on unsatisfied because of the free nature of the costs. Its cheaper than safe sex ain’t it.
    Were it not free but cost a couple of thousand to do like most other operations then the rate would plummet especially if the other person involved in the inoculation of the woman had to pay for a child’s upkeep, unlike today.

    Funding abortions is just another form of social welfare with consequences untold and ignored.
    If you want to slow them down stop subsidizing their sexual irresponsibility and ensure they pay their own way. Tough but it will work better than trying to argue with entrenched attitudes that surround this particular debate.

    It also allows for the real needs to be accepted and cared for. At the end of the day though like all prohibitions its only leads to illegal ends or even in this case to oversea’s travel.
    No amount of yelling from extremists at either end will change human nature and abortions, like alcohol and dope are centuries old and ingrained in some cultures. Just easier these days.

    One of the things that sticks out in Yvettes numbers is the number of Maori having abortions. There were 4,130 abortions to women who identified with the Māori ethnic group.
    In my experience its seems contrary to Maori acceptance of pregnancy. Interesting development and probably reflects greater aspirations of young Maori women today. Probably also points to a greater need for those in Maori womens health to get their education going better.

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  274. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    big bruv 7:43 pm,

    We need to appreciate that the left are the past masters at framing the argument, we cannot afford to give them any ammunition, can you imagine the way the left leaning media would moderate a debate between the anti abortionists led by McCoskrie and a rabid feminist who supports child murder?, very quickly the debate would be all about the bible v choice, the death of innocent children would be forgotten, that is exactly what the left want to happen.

    Although many commenting here are Christians, I think you’ll find, BB, that very few, if any, have quoted Bible verses, or said, “Thus sayeth the Lord”. You, though, have wasted no time in continuing to make accusations of others being Bible bashers, religious nutters, and fundamentalist Christians. You are actually the PROBLEM, not the individual who might be a Christian who believes abortion to be wrong.

    Your mentioning above of McCoskrie is a case in point – often they simply say, “Abortion is wrong; it’s murder”, they don’t even need to quote a verse, and then useful idiots such as yourself start screaming, “Bible bashers, religious nutters, and fundamentalist Christians”, when all they’ve done is make a simple statement of fact.

    No doubt this will fly right over your head, and you won’t even see the point I’m making; afterall I’m a bigotted “religious nutter” with an ulterior motive to convert you all to my fundamentalist Christian sect …

    The sad thing is is there are thousands of useful idiots, such as yourself, who only further empower the socialist ideologues sought on implementing their perversions upon us all. You need to wake up!

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  275. Pete George (23,481 comments) says:

    “The sad thing is is there are thousands of useful idiots, such as yourself, who only further empower the devil sought on implementing his perversions upon us all. “??

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  276. Yvette (2,786 comments) says:

    July 3rd, 2010 at 7:50 pm

    Redbaiter– “The question of abortion has been presented on SHORTLAND STREET in recent weeks” You do know about Gramsci I presume?

    No, and I don’t quite see what Gramsci has to do with it, although I admit many may see SHORTLAND STREET itself as an abortion and I understand that quite some time ago, when a complaint was made to the Lower Hutt Police that an abortion had been committed at Avalon, it was a candidate.
    My point was that in this popular [like it or not] programme, the issue of abortion was presented as totally a woman’s decision.

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  277. Banana Llama (1,043 comments) says:

    Viking2 at what point dose a fetus become an individual, is it 24 weeks or is it around the time brain activity develops. I don’t see it as dictatorial or controlling to stand up for the rights of an individual who happens to have the biological misfortune of growing inside a womb.

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  278. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Redbaiter 7:53 pm,

    Thank god this era is fast drawing to a close.

    “Do I hear an amen echoing silently across the universe?”

    You wouldn’t be alone in that sentiment, Red.

    [Forgive me for quoting you out of the general context of the rest of your paragraph ;) ]

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  279. Viking2 (11,420 comments) says:

    Why abortion just might be a good thing.

    When my husband and I arrived at an automobile dealership to pick up our car, we were told the keys had been locked in it We went to the service department and found a mechanic working feverishly to unlock the driver side door. As I watched from the passenger side, I instinctively tried the door handle and discovered that it was unlocked. “Hey,” I announced to the technician, “It’s open!” His reply, “I know. I already got that side.”

    This was at the Ford dealership in Canton , MS ………

    IDIOT SIGHTING:

    When I left Hawaii and was transferred to FL, I still had the Hawaiian plates on my car, as my car was shipped from Hawaii . I was parking somewhere (I can’t remember) and a guy asked me “Wow, you drove from Hawaii to here?” I looked at him and quickly said “Yep. I took the Hawaii/San Francisco Bridge.” He nodded his head and said “Cool!”

    STAY ALERT!

    They walk among us…
    and they VOTE..
    and they REPRODUCE…

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  280. questlove (242 comments) says:

    Redbaiter said:

    “And such a reason would be….??
    What reason would induce you to snuff out the life in that test tube?”

    That question is really only relevant to the person(s) who brought about that life.
    If that person was me, then hypothetical reasons could include a lack of people to take responsibility of it when in becomes a human life, or lack of resources to sustain it.

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  281. Rex Widerstrom (5,349 comments) says:

    Johnboy:

    To misquote Redbaiter’s favourite politician, you may well put lipstick on a sheep, but that doesn’t make it your wife :-P LOL

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  282. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “I don’t quite see what Gramsci has to do with it”

    Gramsci pioneered the use of popular culture to promote socialist/fascist/ progressive ideas. Adolf Hitler and his helper Josef Goebbells used similar tactics to advance Nazism.

    Once one of the writers for Shortland street showed up on one of these discussion forums and he was one of the most sickeningly PC extreme left evil progressive bastards I’ve ever come across. (Worse even than American Gardener and Big Bruv)

    The left have worked for decades to get leftists into areas of popular entertainment where they can influence political views. 90% of actors entertainers and other artists either knowingly or unknowingly promote left wing views.

    The left even control government funding agencies to ensure that taxpayer money is only handed out to good little commie film makers/ artists.

    Socialists have gradually infiltrated all of our public institutions, but none so completely or so successfully as the entertainment sector.

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  283. Viking2 (11,420 comments) says:

    BL. Don’t know and I’m not about to try to determine that. My point is that if you people encouraged the Govt. to stop paying for the abortions you wouldn’t need to waste your breathe and typewriter ribbons having this emotive argument.
    An argument in which there are no winners.

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  284. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Rex Widerstrom 8:21 pm,

    To misquote Redbaiter’s favourite politician, you may well put lipstick on a sheep, but that doesn’t make it your wife

    But if you put lipstick on Pete George are you still left with a useful idiot enabler of the socialist elite?
    What’s your favourite colour, Pete? – not red by any chance?

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  285. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    however, that is not how the left will fight this battle, we need to get real here.

    Agreed. There’s a time to reframe a debate, and another time to use existing frameworks.. even if they’re screwed up.

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  286. Leonidas (1,423 comments) says:

    The only positive thing to come out of all this is the Fail-Ure going on stress leave.

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  287. BlairM (2,321 comments) says:

    Let’s cut through all the bullshit. The real issue is: Would you want someone arrested for having an abortion?

    To me the answer is simple. I think abortion is morally wrong, but the answer is no.

    So having said that, let’s craft a law that reflects that sentiment.

    Not even Sarah Palin supports arresting those who abort babies. Find me a politician who does and I will show you a fruit loop.

    The morality of abortion is similar to that of squashing a bug. Yes, the “bug” would otherwise grow into a sentient human being which may contribute to society, yadda yadda yadda, but right now it’s a bug. It’s bad to squash bugs, but is it that bad? No. Not very bad at all. Okay, it is clearly worse than squashing an actual bug, but it’s still not heinously evil enough to make someone a criminal.

    Don’t squash bugs, it’s bad. But arresting you for doing it? No, I’m not going to do that. And I don’t think any government should either.

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  288. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “If that person was me, then hypothetical reasons could include a lack of people to take responsibility of it when in becomes a human life, or lack of resources to sustain it.”

    And how would you identify such a reason? There are thousands of people out there willing to adopt. I do not see that there is one reason to extinguish any new human life and especially not upon a presumption that there will be nobody to look after the child as it grows. No orphans ever permitted in your 1984 type environment right?

    Like most in favour of abortion, your arguments are hollow and you attempt to evade any questions that delve to the heart of the issue- ie the sanctity of human life and why you, who have the benefit of life, assume the right to deny, for tenuous reasons, that life to someone who could easily be you. Arrogant narcissism if you ask me.

    The womb is a sexually neutral and natural device for the propagation of human life, and whether that womb is in a female or a male or a test tube, the life it preserves still enjoys the same sanctity.

    “A woman’s right to choose” is just to me, repellent Progressive propaganda.

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  289. Yvette (2,786 comments) says:

    Redbaiter – OK, I do see now.
    And it would explain how quite often SHORTLAND STREET anticipates or reflects some issues.

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  290. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    Request: I’m happy being krazy, kk… or whatever. However I’m keen for Kris K and I to be identified seperately rather than both having the shortened kk nic. I’ll go with whatever convention the mob decides. Thanks.

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  291. Banana Llama (1,043 comments) says:

    Yeah i agree with you Viking2, if we subsidize a behavior then we get more of it.

    Whoops Heretical thoughts alert.

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  292. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “The morality of abortion is similar to that of squashing a bug.”

    In your view. I assume that you as a Liberal, are ready to allow others opposing views. Leaving the issue of criminality aside, crushing human life cannot be compared to crushing a bug. What bug has ever brought enrichment to human life to the degree that Beethoven has for example?? Idiotic. Utterly idiotic. Abortion is the extinguishing of human life, and whereas you may view such an act as morally acceptable, I never will find it anything but repulsive.

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  293. Yvette (2,786 comments) says:

    BlairM – “Would you want someone arrested for having an abortion?”

    In the High Court in 2008, Justice Forrest Miller expressed misgivings about the lawfulness of many abortions and said New Zealand essentially had abortion on request.

    Who is getting arrested for having an abortion? Arrest is not the real issue.

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  294. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    @BlairM – some clear thinking there. Part of the issue then is who pays when I decide to crush a bug that you regard as sacred. At the moment you pay, and you could feel aggrieved at that.

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  295. Tauhei Notts (1,693 comments) says:

    E.T.S.
    Is the member for Nelson a prime candidate for retrospective abortion?

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  296. BlairM (2,321 comments) says:

    Redbaiter – dumbarse, I never said it was morally acceptable, far from it. I regard it as abhorrent. The issue is one of legality and social harm. IOn both counts, I am prepared to wear the consequences.

    Yvette – arrest IS the issue. If you make something illegal, it has to have consequences. You have to arrest the person committing the illegal act. If you are not prepared to do that, then the act should be legal. Those who want to make abortion illegal, but baulk at arresting mothers committing the deed are actually “pro choice”. Arrest the mother or STFU.

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  297. Lucia Maria (2,317 comments) says:

    Yvette,

    And in the courts RTL will challenge, in October, just how legal have been the actions of the Abortion Supervisory Committee.
    ["In the High Court in 2008, Justice Forrest Miller expressed misgivings about the lawfulness of many abortions and said New Zealand essentially had abortion on request." – NZ Herald]
    This is why Chadwick is bringing this up.

    Interesting timing. You’re most likely correct about that. But I also think DPF is right about the political reaction.

    Prime Minister John Key did not answer Weekend Herald questions about the bill yesterday. Labour leader Phil Goff said he hadn’t given the matter much thought.

    Ha. I can just see the conversation. Hey John/Phil – I’ve got a journalist on the phone wanting to know if you will support Steve Chadwick’s bill to legalise abortion on demand …. long pause ….. hello ….. hello …. are you still there …. door opens to find an empty room and a smashed window.

    Our political leaders are cowards. By mutual agreement, the bill will vanish.

    This is now the time to start pushing for the so-called Conscience Vote to be replaced with party positions on all issues, or Binding Referenda .

    Absolutely.

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  298. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “Redbaiter – dumbarse, I never said it was morally acceptable, far from it.”

    OK Blair. Fair enuff. I’m fucking dense really aren’t I?

    I thought that when you wrote “The morality of abortion is similar to that of squashing a bug.” it meant that you viewed the morality of abortion as similar to that of squashing a bug.

    I should have realised you were really saying it was abhorrent. Dunno how I could make such a stupid mistake myself. Just let my guard down for a minute I guess.

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  299. Lucia Maria (2,317 comments) says:

    A few weeks back, the NZ Government made it illegal to kill a Katipo. Not quite a bug, but a spider is close enough. If you kill one, you could be made to pay a massive fine and/or imprisoned.

    So BlairM, funny you should mention bug squashing being morally similar to abortion.

    I, for one, would be very happy to imprison women who had abortions. It might stop them from getting pregnant again.

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  300. questlove (242 comments) says:

    redbaiter said: “And how would you identify such a reason? There are thousands of people out there willing to adopt. I do not see that there is one reason to extinguish any new human life and especially not upon a presumption that there will be nobody to look after the child as it grows. No orphans ever permitted in your 1984 type environment right?”
    I’m talking in the context of the hypothetical situation you dreamt up which doesn’t involve the mother’s womb.

    “Like most in favour of abortion, your arguments are hollow and you attempt to evade any questions that delve to the heart of the issue- ie the sanctity of human life and why you, who have the benefit of life, assume the right to deny, for tenuous reasons, that life to someone who could easily be you. Arrogant narcissism if you ask me.”
    You think asking questions out of context to where abortion occurs is an argument? Again, a first trimester fetus is not a human life.

    “The womb is a sexually neutral and natural device for the propagation of human life, and whether that womb is in a female or a male or a test tube, the life it preserves still enjoys the same sanctity.”
    No. If it’s in the women’s womb, and it’s not a human life yet, then the right of the women to control her body overrides the potential rights of a potential human.

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  301. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “No. If it’s in the women’s womb, and it’s not a human life yet, then the right of the women to control her body overrides the potential rights of a potential human.”

    Thanks for that empty assertion. It really makes discussion so challenging.

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  302. Lucia Maria (2,317 comments) says:

    Redbaiter,

    Once one of the writers for Shortland street showed up on one of these discussion forums and he was one of the most sickeningly PC extreme left evil progressive bastards I’ve ever come across.

    Oh wow, coming from you, that’s really saying something.

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  303. nickb (3,686 comments) says:

    s182 of the Crimes Act states that:

    182
    Killing unborn child

    (1)

    Every one is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 14 years who causes the death of any child that has not become a human being in such a manner that he would have been guilty of murder if the child had become a human being.

    Now what I find bizarre (putting aside moral arguments about abortion for a moment) is that it is (rightly) an offence to murder an unborn child, yet give a medical practitioner a piece of paper giving him a licence, and it is perfectly fine to do so. Bit of a contradiction.

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  304. Lucia Maria (2,317 comments) says:

    Questlove,

    Again, a first trimester fetus is not a human life.

    Science can prove, categorically, that a 1st trimester fetus IS a human life.

    The phrase you are looking for is “human person”, an artificial political construct used to classify the unborn differently from the born.

    You’ll find that’s far easier to argue, and will make you look less like an idiot.

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  305. Lucia Maria (2,317 comments) says:

    Nickb,

    That is really in the crimes act!!

    auses the death of any child that has not become a human being in such a manner that he would have been guilty of murder if the child had become a human being.

    Our legislation is written by idiots as well. But, then, I already knew that …

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  306. Rex Widerstrom (5,349 comments) says:

    krazykiwi: Spelling your nick in full takes an extra 56 bytes! Each of those bytes requires several microvolts to generate. Won’t someone think of Gaia?! In fact, from now on I shall call you ‘.’

    My parting thought: anyone spending their Saturday night sitting in front of a computer at 9.30pm debating an issue connected with sex is clearly not getting any ;-)

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  307. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    Rex – :D

    As for your parting thought… haven’t you heard of multi-tasking!?!

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  308. Viking2 (11,420 comments) says:

    Now we know why we are busy spending more taxpayers money building prisons.
    That charitable screaming lefty just told us.

    # Lucia Maria (196) Says:
    July 3rd, 2010 at 9:08 pm

    I, for one, would be very happy to imprison women who had abortions. It might stop them from getting pregnant again.

    Got the money to pay my share have you.

    Since when has any prison stopped a woman from getting pregnant?
    Like so many other stupid people you seem to imply the answer to everything that’s not to your liking is to send someone to jail.
    What enlightened thinking you have.
    I am old enough to remember when it was illegal for women to have abortions in NZ and the tragedies that resulted from that Catholic view. Like most things Catholic its a repressive view of womens place in the world. Brothers of the Muslims.
    Every bit as bad as their pedophilia attitude towards young men.

    Lucia Maria
    This is now the time to start pushing for the so-called Conscience Vote to be replaced with party positions on all issues, or Binding Referenda .

    Absolutely.

    Clearly you belong over at the standard or some other communist organization that will rule the world in your name.
    You live in a country where you can raise your voice to say what you think but you would rather the no one else was allowed to say anything and that we should all be subsumed to lousy, stinking thinking politicians to be ruled by decree.
    Go back to your nunnery and stay there.

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  309. slightlyrighty (2,472 comments) says:

    How about we look at this by way of analogy.

    I apologise in advance for the possible cold hearted comparison, but let us look at a motor vehicle, and a driver.

    A driver that is careful, abides by the rules, drives a safe vehicle and drives with due consideration to others and defensively is far less likely to have an accident, and yet such a driver would most likely have insurance to deal with the consequences of an accident.

    A driver who is a bit of an idiot, and doesn’t abide by the rules, who is a bit of an arsehole on the road and doesn’t give a damn about others or him or herself, is far more likely to cause an accident, and is far more likely to not have insurance to deal with the consequences of an accident.

    Having an abortion could be likened to buying car insurance after you have an accident.

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  310. Lucia Maria (2,317 comments) says:

    Viking,

    So you’d rather have the criminals out on the streets, where they cause more mayhem and do more harm to more people, than actually spending the money locking them up?

    Obviously that’s the prevalent view, that and the whole, oh no, we’ll look bad internationally if we lock that many people up.

    And trying to make out I’m a lefty is just so … lame.

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  311. Chuck Bird (4,848 comments) says:

    i understand if this proposal is to be considered by Parliament it will be divided by a conscious vote. Does any one know at what age an MP develops a conscious?

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  312. nickb (3,686 comments) says:

    Nickb,

    That is really in the crimes act!!

    Sure is Lucia.
    It just seems odd that Parliament would recognise that, for instance, in a situation where a pregnant women was murdered, the death of her unborn child would constitute a separate offence analogous to murder in its own right.

    When give a doctor a licence, and it is fine.

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  313. Chuck Bird (4,848 comments) says:

    “i understand if this proposal is to be considered by Parliament it will be divided by a conscious vote. Does any one know at what age an MP develops a conscious?”

    Should be

    i understand if this proposal is to be considered by Parliament it will be divided by a conscience vote. Does any one know at what age an MP develops a conscience?

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  314. Chuck Bird (4,848 comments) says:

    “No. If it’s in the women’s womb, and it’s not a human life yet, then the right of the women to control her body overrides the potential rights of a potential human.”

    Questlove, then I assume you would be happy with 34 week abortions. How about 39 week abortions?

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  315. American Gardener (556 comments) says:

    What are a bunch of silly old white men doing trying tell women what to do with their bodies ? Pathetic farts, we will do exactly what we want.

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  316. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “Got the money to pay my share have you.”

    When every entire government cost is broken down into user pays units, please let me know. In the meantime, if cost is your main consideration, then jail would probably be at least revenue neutral or provide a credit to taxpayers. Kudos to Lucia for having the courage of her convictions and following through to the logical conclusion. Something you seldom see from twisting liberals.

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  317. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “we will do exactly what we want”

    Which with your body would be pretty much fuck all. Vaginally popping ping pong balls in some Bangkok brothel probably.

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  318. Banana Llama (1,043 comments) says:

    No problem American Gardener and i will do exactly as i want.

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  319. Lucia Maria (2,317 comments) says:

    Banana Llama,

    I think your sentence after “No Problem. “needs a comma. Unless you explicitly want it to not have one. Just read it both ways and you’ll see what I mean.

    Thanks, Redbaiter!

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  320. ben (2,377 comments) says:

    Kris K: your generalisations are revolting.

    Even if all the women having abortions are as you say, it still wouldn’t be any of your business. Not one little bit. Of cours,e if you have your way, your views very much become their business, ultimately at the point of a gun. Revolting all round, really.

    Watching you, Bruv, and everyone else contort the arguments e.g. “I do not want to control anybodies life, I just want them to have the chance of living.” just laughably bad logic, from Bruv. What, the mother’s opinion and the father’s opinion doesn’t count?

    Watching you sad, sad people organise is pathetic. You do not have the right to dictate the parents’ choice. Your position is evil.

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  321. Banana Llama (1,043 comments) says:

    If it matters to you Lucia then i will take your advice sincerely.

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  322. questlove (242 comments) says:

    Redbaiter said: “Thanks for that empty assertion. It really makes discussion so challenging.”

    What’s empty about it? A fetus is not a human being just like an acorn is not an oak tree. Potential human beings don’t have the rights that an actual person does. It’s quite simple.

    Eg An 8-year-old only has the potential right to vote, but they don’t get the actual right to vote until they turn 18.

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  323. questlove (242 comments) says:

    Lucia Maria said: The phrase you are looking for is “human person”, an artificial political construct used to classify the unborn differently from the born.

    Artificial constructs? Are you denying that there is a difference between the unborn and the born? One is a ‘human person’ and one is a potential ‘human person’. A fetus is life, just as a sperm, an embryo, an acorn, and a tree, are all life. All these forms of life have no rights. Especially over the rights of an actual ‘human person’.

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  324. Mark Petersen (1,481 comments) says:

    The debate on abortion begins on when you consider life begins. If you consider, as I do, that life begins at conception then abortion must by definition be the killing of a person. If you do not consider life begins at conception at what point does it start. it would appear there are large numbers of people who care little about when life starts as they consider that women and women alone should have the right to terminate that life if they choose to and for whatever reason. There are abortions now because the timing of the pregnancy is simply inconvenient. By any measure the statistics are tragic.

    Ms Chadwick and I are never likely to find common ground on this issue because by the promotion of this bill she does not have the rights of children in her vision. I am surely pleased my mother did not choose to have me terminated. I guess there were 17500 babies this year that simply did not have the chance to put their case to live. There was no advocate for them. The judgement was made about the mothers rights, the womans rights about her body and her mental state. Not one minute’s thought by the certifying doctors for the child.

    As a society we wail about the road toll, infant mortality and cancer. 400 odd road deaths a year is a national tragedy yet we deliberately kill 40 times that number before they have the chance to breathe.

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  325. MT_Tinman (3,137 comments) says:

    # Lucia Maria (201) Says:
    July 3rd, 2010 at 3:14 pm

    philu (9192) Says:
    July 3rd, 2010 at 1:48 pm

    “..Who exactly do we want to slaughter again?..”

    muslims..for starters…

    (tho’ you would call it self-defense..eh..?..)

    I for one, do not want to slaughter Muslims.

    MT_Tinman, who made the original accusation at 1:21pm, seems to have gone a bit quiet on this one.

    Some of us work for a living.

    You didn’t answer my question and obviously english is not your strong suit so I’ll not bother answering yours.

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  326. Pete George (23,481 comments) says:

    Some people (mostly men) seem to think that as soon as a man has impregnated a women’s egg the woman’s rights cease? This is in line with many societies through history who have seen women as breeders, cookers and cleaners.

    This shouldn’t be a left/right issue, and not so much a religious/non-religious argument. It is more an argument about the rights of a woman versus the attempted dictates of men who cling to the past.

    Maybe male MPs should abstain from any vote on abortion. Or canvas the wishes of their female constituents.

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  327. Chuck Bird (4,848 comments) says:

    “Maybe male MPs should abstain from any vote on abortion. Or canvas the wishes of their female constituents.”

    With the condition that no man be obliged to pay child support if he chooses not to.

    This is one issue that should not be decided solely on a conscience vote of MPs unless the law needs to approved by a referendum.

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  328. Chuck Bird (4,848 comments) says:

    questlove, if one accepts your argument then an abortion up to 39 weeks should be available to any woman on request. If not why not?

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  329. Pete George (23,481 comments) says:

    39 weeks is an obvious answer, it wouldn’t be an abortion, it would be a survivable birth.

    While I think 20 weeks is getting late to deal with it I’m inclined to think that the first half should be the woman’s rights, the second half should be a medical decision based on the health and viability of woman and fetus.

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  330. fatman43us (166 comments) says:

    Abortion! Any country which can afford to kill of 17000 prospective citizens a year must be well endowed with talent and abilities. Yeah Right!

    To kill of a Nelson a year seems to indicate to me that this country remains as feckless and stupid as it was all those years ago when abortion was brought in as “relief for women whose mental condition would be affected by the birth”. So we have 17000 nutty females a year in this country? Easily understood if you ever listened to or met Chadwick or Clark!

    But the situation is so simply remedied. We have Sex education in schools to a level never before contemplated. We have Birth Control procedures of great surety and simplicity. We as taxpayers pay for all this quietly. We have a demand for born children to adopt and become part of good and caring families. Yet Chadwick believes that a dumb feminist has the right answer. She is as ever a fool, and for that matter a dumb and blind fool.

    It was drivel such as this that helped Helen Clark find the time to become a servant of the UN. Hopefully it will help Labour to another three terms in Opposition.

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  331. Yvette (2,786 comments) says:

    “With the condition that no man be obliged to pay child support if he chooses not to.”

    This appears to be a current condition.
    “Figures released to the Sunday Star-Times by Inland Revenue show that of the 176,500 people liable for child support, 121,500 are behind in their payments.
    Together they owe more than $560 million in unpaid child support and $1.2b in late payment penalties and interest”
    – Sunday Star Times, today

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  332. Pete George (23,481 comments) says:

    Men who can have a screw and walk away as if nothing has changed have no idea (or care) about what it is like for women. And as Yvette points out, there are plenty of men who take no responsibility, yet try and impose it on women.

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  333. big bruv (13,734 comments) says:

    Ben

    ” Your position is evil.”

    As evil as killing a child simply because the female cannot be bothered going ahead with the pregnancy?

    This debate is about the slaughter of innocent children Ben, I note that you do not address this part of it, you prefer to muddy the waters and make is a human rights issue, well what about the rights of the unborn child?

    You are the one who is evil Ben.

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  334. Pete George (23,481 comments) says:

    Except that they are not children.

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  335. big bruv (13,734 comments) says:

    Pete

    So killing is perfectly fine if you name them something else?

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  336. Chuck Bird (4,848 comments) says:

    Men who can have a screw and walk away as if nothing has changed have no idea (or care) about what it is like for women. And as Yvette points out, there are plenty of men who take no responsibility, yet try and impose it on women.

    Pete, the point I have been trying to make is that in a democracy the issue should be decided by everyone because it can potentially affect everyone. Child support is just one example.

    You might think it acceptable that a married woman can decide to have an abortion at 24 weeks because her husband has had an affair, she suspects he has had an affair or she is just pissed off with him. Others do not share your view.

    If this issue is to be decided by Parliament it is an outrage that it may be decided by a conscience vote of MPs. Such issues should be decided or a least approved by the majority by a referendum.

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  337. TEO (33 comments) says:

    Pete

    “there are plenty of men who take no responsibility, yet try and impose it on women” just as there are plenty of women who take no responsibility, yet try and impose it on a foetus (usually with no regard for the rights of the man who has a 50% interest in the genetic material…thanks for pointing this out slightlyrighty).

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  338. Chuck Bird (4,848 comments) says:

    It is a shame that those are totally opposed to all abortion possibly with the exception of rape and incest will not debate the topic. The topic is should we further liberalise the abortion laws to allow abortion on request up to 24 weeks. I believe this would also be publicly funded.

    Anyone who believes that New Zealand will ever ban abortion is not living in the real world and is not doing their cause any good.

    This is where the Swiss system allowing where referendum id 50,000 signatures can be collected in 100 days.

    http://www.100days.co.nz

    If we had this system politicians would not pass laws that are likely to be overturned by the majority of voters.

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  339. Caleb (479 comments) says:

    so women need to be better educated, take some responsibility, use contraception, abstain, adobt… because a man can walk away and its the woman left pregnant.

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  340. Caleb (479 comments) says:

    i guess it the pressure on young women to be like a man, have a carreer, not be a burden on the family.

    i wonder how many of the 17000 are young, ‘middle class’ women.

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  341. cha (3,946 comments) says:

    God planned your rape, don’t abort!

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  342. questlove (242 comments) says:

    “So killing is perfectly fine if you name them something else?”

    Life is not sacred. We think nothing of killing life every-day for our survival. Generally we are only concerned about the killing of human beings.

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  343. Puzzled in Ekatahuna (344 comments) says:

    OK Cha, so that is rather scarey: Bill Manders asks Nevada Senate candidate Sharron Angle whether there is “any reason at all for an abortion,” and she answers: “Not in my book.” For clarity, he says: “So, in other words, rape and incest would not be something?” And Angle replies with this reasoning: “You know, I’m a Christian, and I believe that God has a plan and a purpose for each one of our lives and that he can intercede in all kinds of situations and we need to have a little faith in many things.”

    I guess she would also not move to stop a college killing spree, even if she could take out the gunman, because that will be an enlightening, strengthening learning experience too.

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  344. Banana Llama (1,043 comments) says:

    Don’t you believe her magic book Cha?

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  345. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    questlove 11:39 am,

    Life is not sacred. We think nothing of killing life every-day for our survival. Generally we are only concerned about the killing of human beings.

    More parrot like deluded rantings from the socialists’ handbook.
    I hope you won’t/haven’t decide[d] to continue your genetic lineage by reproducing.

    The only good thing about useful idiots like Questlove is that they will likely remove themselves from the human gene pool – thereby doing us all a favour.

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  346. Viking2 (11,420 comments) says:

    Its an issue of choice and one that should not be funded by the taxpayer. As I said before, if you want to slow the rate of abortions down stop funding them.

    The age at which the abortion is allowed is open for debate but seriously if you haven’t decided in the first 8 weeks then where is your head at and why would you decide after that? Its not a decision that should fester away, either the child is wanted or it isn’t.

    Lucia; Ladies who have an abortion are not criminals but women who have made a decision about their futures. A decision they should be able to make, free of the bigoted attitudes of people like yourself, Bb and redbaiter who on any other subject protest constantly about the need for personal responsibility and freedom from slavery and the state.
    Oh but on this the bitter become friends through their hypocrisy.

    At the end all three of you are religious bigots.

    If you three are so concerned about this you would more fruitfully put your efforts into removing the incentives for abortion and developing better systems that could cope with those not wanting to have a child both before and after the act.
    You could start by stop blaming the men all the time and you could actually go and find out the reasons why these ladies decide to terminate their pregnancies. Not the official reasons but the real reasons. Go talk to those that have an abortion or fund some researcher to do so. Then you may find some answers. Until then you are just another bunch of moralistic bigots.

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  347. cha (3,946 comments) says:

    Angle is all kinds of crazy, the unemployed are “Spoiled” crazy or the Second Amendment remedies crazy and lots more.

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  348. cha (3,946 comments) says:

    Genuine inquiry Kris K, your use of the ‘useful idiots’ phrase, can you cite and attribute the phrase to anyone or are you parroting your beloved Redbaiter because I’ll be fucked if I can find an original quote.

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  349. questlove (242 comments) says:

    Kris K (2610) Says:
    July 4th, 2010 at 12:11 pm
    “More parrot like deluded rantings from the socialists’ handbook.
    I hope you won’t/haven’t decide[d] to continue your genetic lineage by reproducing.
    The only good thing about useful idiots like Questlove is that they will likely remove themselves from the human gene pool – thereby doing us all a favour.”

    If you disagree with me then state your argument. An abusive response far from proves me wrong.

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  350. Chuck Bird (4,848 comments) says:

    questlove, you have proved yourself wrong. Using your logic a woman should be able to have na abortion at 39 weeks. Now too many on this blog would agree me thinks.

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  351. RKBee (1,344 comments) says:

    350 and still going…
    Such issues should be decided or a least approved by the majority by a referendum… not MPs.

    Yes by referendum.. but not by the mass citizens referendum… a referendum for woman only.

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  352. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “Genuine inquiry Kris K, your use of the ‘useful idiots’ phrase, can you cite and attribute the phrase to anyone or are you parroting your beloved Redbaiter because I’ll be fucked if I can find an original quote.”

    Well you won’t will you, for the simple reason that Lenin and his political friends only ever spoke Russian. Looking for an original quote that included the exact words “useful idiots” is something only a dumbarse would do.

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  353. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    cha 12:27 pm,

    Useful idiot – Wikipedia

    In political jargon, the term useful idiot was used to describe Soviet sympathizers in Western countries and the attitude of the Soviet government towards them. The implication was that though the person in question naïvely thought themselves an ally of the Soviets or other Communists, they were actually held in contempt by them, and were being cynically used.

    The term is now used more broadly to describe someone who is perceived to be manipulated by a political movement, terrorist group, hostile government, or business, whether or not the group is Communist in nature.

    Lenin and Stalin

    The term is commonly attributed to Lenin and Stalin, sometimes in the form “useful idiots of the West”, to describe those Western reporters and travelers who would endorse the Soviet Union and its policies in the West.

    You didn’t look very hard, Cha.

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  354. questlove (242 comments) says:

    Chuck Bird,

    I’ve said a few times that I’m talking in the context of the first-trimester. When a fetus becomes viable and thus could exist independently of the mother (i.e. possessing a human characteristic in addition to the human genetic code) – then it becomes a human person.

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  355. Fletch (6,296 comments) says:

    questlove, that is a specious argument. A baby can’t exist “independently of the mother” even after it is born. It still needs feeding, changing, washing etc etc. So what kind of a test is that? To me it is irrelevant. It is something that is living and growing inside the mother and any abortion procedure kills it. Simple.

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  356. questlove (242 comments) says:

    Use ‘survive outside the uterus’ then, i.e. before viability the fetus cannot survive except within the woman’s body.

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  357. Fletch (6,296 comments) says:

    If you three are so concerned about this you would more fruitfully put your efforts into removing the incentives for abortion and developing better systems that could cope with those not wanting to have a child both before and after the act.

    Viking, Bishop Dunn from Auckland make a special pledge ten years ago to help any woman who was pregnant and needed help. It has helped many women. I am sure that still stands, and that many more have taken up his offer since the linked article (quoted below).

    The Catholic Bishop of Auckland is rejoicing at the number of babies who have been born since he vowed in March to help women who choose life over abortion.

    At least 72 girls and women chose to become mothers following Bishop Pat Dunn’s public vow.

    “It is small-scale still but it is quite touching … when you actually see a child and the mother will say, ‘I was going to have an abortion.’

    “We are not talking about a cause. We are talking about individuals.”

    Bishop Dunn gave a personal undertaking in March to help any pregnant girl or woman who was undecided about the future of her unborn child.

    “I make this pledge to any woman regardless of creed or circumstances and without any conditions attached,” he said at the time.

    “It … will allow women the right and freedom to choose life instead of death.”

    As for your rants about Christians being “bigoted”, how so?
    Because we want to save the lives of babies? If that makes one a bigot then count me in.

    I will tell you the reason there are so many abortions – the so-called sexual liberation, “free love” of the 60s, and feminist ideas that say anyone can have sex with anyone else with no consequences. Whose f***** lame idea was that? Let’s have all of the pleasure and none of the responsibility, and if babies result, let’s kill them. THAT’S where you can lay the blame of abortion. The decline of morals in society.

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  358. Fletch (6,296 comments) says:

    i.e. before viability the fetus cannot survive except within the woman’s body.

    Um… so? It’s not meant to!

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  359. questlove (242 comments) says:

    So it’s not a human person with the rights of a human person.

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  360. Fletch (6,296 comments) says:

    questlove, I bet if you took a DNA sample it would read as human. As for it’s “rights”, there have even been cases where men have been charged with murder after attacking a pregnant spouse who consequently lost the baby. Funny how it’s murder in one case and a legitimate medical procedure in another.

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  361. Pete George (23,481 comments) says:

    More parrot like deluded rantings from the socialists’ handbook.

    There is no such thing, as you know. This is just abuse to try and divert from yourself?
    What handbook to you parrot from?

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  362. Pete George (23,481 comments) says:

    I bet if you took a DNA sample it would read as human.

    If you extracted DNA from a 10,000 year old corpse and it could read as human too. But the DNA thing is not relevant to this argument. You could read DNA on death row, or in the mountains of Afghanistan.

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  363. questlove (242 comments) says:

    Flech

    The last time I donated blood the contents of the bag beside me had 100% human DNA. My blood cells don’t have an inalienable right to life.

    edit: beaten by Pete

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  364. Fletch (6,296 comments) says:

    questlove, but are your bloodcells going to keep growing and eventuate in another human being if you don’t remove them from your body? A foetus is.

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  365. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Abortion Kills.
    Physically, emotionally and spiritually.
    Always the fetus/baby inside but very often the Mother for decades to come.

    600 (thanks Cha) new entrant classes a year is no small thing, that’s 17,000 odd New Zealanders we don’t get to cheer on, on the Rugby, Netball, Soccer, Business field.
    17,000+ people we don’t get to share and celebrate their lives with.

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  366. Pete George (23,481 comments) says:

    At what age Fletch? It certainly won’t when it first becomes a fetus at about 9 weeks (prior to which it was an embryo).

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  367. TEO (33 comments) says:

    questlove, re: “When a fetus becomes viable and thus could exist independently of the mother (i.e. possessing a human characteristic in addition to the human genetic code) – then it becomes a human person.”

    The fact is there are so many differing points of view on this issue. No one can be quite sure if/when a foetus is “a human person with the rights of a human person”, so why take the risk of committing murder? That’s like a hunter recklessly shooting at their quarry without being quite sure if it’s a deer or a human.

    As for Chadwick’s proposal to legalise foeticide on request/demand at 6 months, it’s clearly barbaric. Let’s relegate that sort of behaviour to the famously/shamefully brutal 20th century.

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  368. cha (3,946 comments) says:

    commonly attributed to Lenin and Stalin

    But you can’t cite the source, only commonly attributed, and you have no reference to either Lenin or Stalin actually using the phrase useful idiot which leaves you with a slogan that someone used but you have no idea who….so again, who said it?.

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  369. TEO (33 comments) says:

    “Abortion Kills … very often the Mother for decades to come.”

    Good point MikeNZ. A shrink friend of mine reckons about half their business is sorting out the after-effects of abortion on women. How ironic given their abortions would’ve been approved on mental health grounds in the first place.

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  370. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    TEO
    the articles I’ve read state more than 70% of women who have an abortion suffer depression.
    In their deepest hearts they know what they have done in killing a baby within them.

    We’ve spoken with several women who have aborted babies in their youth and they all wish they hadn’t even though they acknowledge that their situations were so chaotic or seemed without hope.

    All of them dreaded the birthdates and always had a sadness at Christmas (and mothers day) with their own families and this is with some of them being open and transparent with their husbands, so they were able to share this with them and have their love and support too.
    Some of them had never been able to do that which made it more painful.

    You have to have compassion for someone, who even though later they may wish they hadn’t, now miss the opportunity for sharing a life they terminated.

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  371. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    As for Chadwick’s proposal to legalise foeticide on request/demand at 6 months, it’s clearly barbaric. Let’s relegate that sort of behaviour to the famously/shamefully brutal 20th century.

    Nothing I wouldn’t expect of a Labour Socialist type.
    No doubt she has seen vids of the breaking up of the little bodies and feels no compassion at all.

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  372. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “who said it?”

    Moron. What does it matter? “useful idiots” abound, and you’re one of the worst. Doing all you can to white ant liberty from within the confines of a democracy.

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  373. cha (3,946 comments) says:

    FLAMEWARS: SYNERGISTIC COMBINATIONS OF THE ABOVE:
    Invariably a
    FPD flamer will start a flamewar. First the flamer attacks another
    subscriber
    unexpectedly. It happens because the flamer felt insulted (exquisite
    sensitivity to insults), but usually this insult was entirely in his/her
    own mind. But the flamer never considers that perhaps he made a
    mistake while interpreting the insult (no self-doubt), and he also sees a
    NEED to answer every insult with insults (vengeful, narcissistic.)

    Having created a fight while blaming others for starting it, the flamer
    then lays into his victim, (amoral, combative), while seeing his own
    actions as a righteous battle against an evil enemy (projection.) If
    the victim seems hurt, the flamer will be disgusted by such weakness
    (amoral.) But if the victim responds in kind, the flamer will immediately
    complain bitterly about this, while steadfastly denying that the type of
    attacks he so hates are identical to the ones he’s using himself
    (hypocrisy, self-serving bias.) If other subscribers object, the flamer
    ignores them as beneath contempt (egotistical), or because he KNOWS
    they must be wrong without even listening to their reasoning (no
    self-doubt.) Or perhaps he ignores them because he is certain that they
    have hidden agendas, and their complaints could only be false constructs
    meant to mislead. (denial/projection.)

    The FPD flamer typically ignores a moderator and refuses to alter his
    behavior, and can only be stopped by ejection from the forum. Sometimes
    flamers attack the moderator in order to get ejected (and therefore feel
    smug righteousness at being “censored” or “martyred.”) A flamer will
    occasionally be shocked by being banned from a forum, and actually
    reconsider his behavior. But this is rare. Usually they’re too far
    gone for this to penetrate
    their immense psychological defenses. They will refuse all responsibility
    for the
    problem (deceit, denial), blame it on the moderator or on the group for
    conspiring against them in private (paranoia), and totally refuse to look
    at their own mistakes in an honest light (denial, deceit, self-blind.)

    Heh. Don’t you just LOVE encountering a full-blown FPD-type flamer?

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  374. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    Cha is a typical communist. He never contributes anything himself to this discussion group, either providing links or pastes or dumb questions. Always riding on the efforts of others.

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  375. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Rex stated

    DPF notes:

    I would like to see fewer abortions, but I believe the way you achieve that is through education and health services, and reforming the Adoption Act.

    I agree. DPF’s former boss Jenny Shipley very bravely once said she wanted to see the abortion rate plummet, but that the only viable way to do so was to improve education and make contraception free and freely available (I think she said with no age restriction, but I could be wrong about that). I think was about the only subject on which I agreed with her wholeheartedly.

    How many years of education have we had in NZ?
    How many millions thrown at this issue?
    Yet we have the highest rates of chlamydia in the 14-23 yrs age group that we have ever had and 17,000 abortions still happen.

    You assertions about more education being the answer is rubbish as education doesn’t work does it?
    Come on lets be honest for once.

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  376. Viking2 (11,420 comments) says:

    Fletch (1188) Says I will tell you the reason there are so many abortions – the so-called sexual liberation, “free love” of the 60s, and feminist ideas that say anyone can have sex with anyone else with no consequences. Whose f***** lame idea was that? Let’s have all of the pleasure and none of the responsibility, and if babies result, let’s kill them. THAT’S where you can lay the blame of abortion. The decline of morals in society.

    What nonsense. You clearly have no knowledge of history for abortions have been part of history forever and has been used in a number of cultures as a form of birth control.
    The only reason its used so much in NZ is that its free, paid for by the taxpayer. Remove that taxpayer 100% subsidy and the number would plummet with a big saving in lives, womens health and particularly womens mental health, saving in consultants fees, doctors fees etc etc.
    There will still be some but there will be many more babies around for us all to care for, at least until people learn about being responsible for their behavoir.
    The state paying for abortions is just like the state paying for young women to have children without requiring any commitment by the other person towards those children.
    As an owner of rental houses I can tell you that many are filled with young women on the DPB with no apparent partner but still managing to produce more babies.
    Its irresponsible.
    I can accept one mistake very easily and there but for the Grace of God go everyone of us, and I mean everyone of us.(oh except maybe the gays.OK). but the second is questionable and the third and subsequent are out of the game, nut there are plenty like this and plenty where the boyfriend lives in as a border, no questions asked.

    The ultimate political Prostitute today has been making noises about recovering money from errant fathers. What a joke. I mean every minister that ever thought about this has said the same thing. If nanny state didn’t interfere with peoples normal relationships and people made their own arrangements then the state wouldn’t have an issue to be bothered with.

    Its a giant pyramid scheme. Taxpayer at the top followed by pollies down to courts and lawyers down to councilors and all that baggage down to families. Families are last but if we turn the pyramid upside down to families at the top then we can have change.

    Abortion is a consequence of attitudes. An attitude that children and families don’t matter.
    Want abortions to go down. Make families the priority, make kids wanted, allow mothers to feel valued and to sense that their value as a mum is greater than their value as an employee. Some won’t and that’s all fine as it is their personal decision. Its rare to find a childless lady who doesn’t still dote over her nieces and nephews. Even Crusty Clark did.

    And by the way Fletch. the allies have been doing this for over 100 years in NZ. The Catholics used it to screw their women up and manipulate them for their own purposes.
    My early family were well entrenched which is why I can’t abide their attitude. ( that includes some who were right at the top of the Church.)

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  377. Viking2 (11,420 comments) says:

    Mikenz. Professor Gluckman writing sometime ago about the subject he knows about ( rather than AGW), challenged about the early maturity in young people and made the point that we had a problem. No one bothered to listen to the wise man.
    I have a cousin who has been for years in what has euphemistically called the Family Planning Clinic. She can tell you stories about young ladies that would make you want to cry. They are pilloried for the work they attempt by the same nutters who are writing above yet none of those same people even begin to know what the work is all about. They pick up the pieces whilst trying to put forward more education. Go ask some of them about their days.
    If there is one place to spend money here it is.

    Its fine for the well off and those with nice families to rant on about abortion but they should go and spend some time in the front end of this work and just find out what really goes on.

    I don’t imagine for one second that people like Lucia have spent a single second working in these places, just sit on their pedestal and demand of others.
    Six months of that work and they would come home crying at night.

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  378. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Viking2
    We have cried and laughed with some of these few.

    Yet we stand against Abortion on demand and especially ones through lies like I am mentally unsound (so let me kill my baby because I couldn’t handle a natural process like a birth right now).

    How many women (who see no future) if counseled properly would give their kids up for adoption and how many ‘would be parents’ that would make good safe homes for these kids.
    Even one baby saved and brought up to adulthood for us to celebrate would be wonderful.

    but it means we as a society have to say, that aborting your baby for your convenience sake is not right or acceptable.
    This is our baby too
    .

    And dressing that up as “Woman’s reproductive rights” is hypocrisy and shouldn’t be allowed.

    At the silly end if the guy and girl need to both pay a fine because they did not use condoms or other proper means to ensure they didn’t come for an abortion or maybe they have to front up with the full cost. No consequences means no common sense is built.

    There is NO EXCUSE we have had tons of education/propaganda in schools for years now, we are the most educated generation ever. yet still chlamydia is at the highest rate! that’s not a mistake but stupid decisions.

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  379. BlairM (2,321 comments) says:

    I, for one, would be very happy to imprison women who had abortions. It might stop them from getting pregnant again.

    You gotta love that Catholic compassion right there. The same compassion that brought us Mother Teresa’s fraudulent hospice in Calcutta and coverups for Priests raping little boys. Yes, let’s imprison women who get pregnant by accident. Nice one. I hope if purgatory really exists, you spend a very long time there.

    I for one will always favour the living over the unborn. Only those who truly hate humanity would chose a potplant equivalent over a sentient human being to bestow their grace upon.

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  380. GJ (329 comments) says:

    How come its OK to kill an unborn child, yet not OK to kill an unborn animal or a tree?

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  381. Johnboy (16,084 comments) says:

    Sob. I killed a tree last year.

    Sob, sob. I’m burning it at the stake right now.

    God I feel like a complete arsehole.

    Thanks GJ. I needed that.

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  382. Yvette (2,786 comments) says:

    Just when it is starting to lapse at 382 comments, here we go –

    Aussies back abortion law change
    “There is broad support for a decriminalisation of abortion in Australia, a poll shows.
    A clear majority say abortion should be lawful without question in a woman’s first trimester, or lawful depending on her circumstances in the second trimester.
    Views on abortion in the third trimester _ or “late-term” after 24 weeks _ were evenly split but the poll of almost 800 Australians does show the yawning gap that prevails between community views and most state abortion laws.
    “Abortion is a crime in at least some circumstances in all Australian jurisdictions except for Victoria and ACT,” said Professor Julian Savulescu, a lead author on the research and visiting professor at Monash University.
    “Abortion must be decriminalised, early abortion should be freely and easily available on request.
    “Late abortion should be freely and easily available, at least for those who have a valid justification.”
    The nationally representative poll of Australians over 18 years found 61 per cent said abortion should be lawful without question for a woman in her first trimester of pregnancy, while 26 per cent said it should be lawful depending on the reason.” – AAP, stuff.co.nz

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  383. Johnboy (16,084 comments) says:

    Dans le cas d’Australias ce devrait être postdaté 6 générations. :)

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  384. Yvette (2,786 comments) says:

    I had thought Chadwick’s comments were related to
    “5-6 October 2010 A hearing has been set down for the Court of Appeal to hear arguments on the appeals of the ASC and RTL re: a mandamus in the High Court in Wellington against the ASC for its alleged failure to fulfil its statutory duties. These claims included the failure of the ASC to ensure that the human rights of unborn children received the full protection of the law, the failure to hold certifying consultants accountable for the lawfulness of the abortions they authorised and the failure to stop abortion on demand.”
    but now I suspect her remarks are more likely timed to the release of this
    Australian survey [as well as the impending court action]

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  385. Yvette (2,786 comments) says:

    Je sais, vous ne peux pas croire que les Australiens veulent dépénaliser quelque chose comme mérite des ancêtres ?

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  386. Yvette (2,786 comments) says:

    La question de la Suspension – l’issue qui porte ses fruits continuellement.

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  387. Johnboy (16,084 comments) says:

    Vous êtes Yvette droit. Tant que nous pouvons les battre au cricket. :)

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  388. Shunda barunda (2,982 comments) says:

    Things I have learnt about abortion so far.

    * Despite what the “pros” say it is one of the most polarised issues of our times (as comment count indicates)

    * Most of those opposed to it are not fundamentalist Christians (although Christians represent a large part of those opposed)

    *Referring to the unborn child as a “she” often causes a markedly different reaction to those on the fence, particularly women.

    *Every woman I have met that has had repeat abortions is often of a “hard” personality type and often seen as a bitch by other women for reasons other than her stance on abortion.

    *I am yet to meet a woman who has had just one abortion that does not regret it terribly, for many it is the single largest mental health issue they have.

    *Women (particularly younger) that have been talked into having the procedure by family or friends often find it very hard to forgive these people if they develop regret latter on. It often leads to unresolvable rifts and contributes to the mental health issues of all people involved.

    *Misplaced trust in the medical profession is the single biggest reason women have abortions.

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  389. Johnboy (16,084 comments) says:

    “*Misplaced trust in the medical profession is the single biggest reason women have abortions.”

    The creation under the leftist, socialist, femonazi, lesbians of the Family Planning octopus is the single biggest reason women have abortions.

    IMHO.

    I would add the creation of ‘School Counselors’ to the mix as well. :)

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  390. Yvette (2,786 comments) says:

    But Shunda barunda, that doesn’t matter now.
    Chadwick has Australia behind her and this is one area where she will want to close the gap.

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  391. AlphaKiwi (682 comments) says:

    Kill ‘em all, let God sort them out.

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  392. Johnboy (16,084 comments) says:

    Chadwick has no one behind her as the wise citizens of Rotorua threw her out last election.

    She is a Labour party list, ugly looking for a cause.

    Why do you guys get so worked up over her uttering?

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  393. Yvette (2,786 comments) says:

    J’ai voulu dire pour vous remercier avant, Johnboy, de ce lien
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0kJHQpvgB8
    Lui que ceci du durent, ou film en second lieu dernier, de Harry Potter ?

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  394. Johnboy (16,084 comments) says:

    Harry Potter n’est pas magique à moi.

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  395. Yvette (2,786 comments) says:

    Harry Potter n’est pas magique avec vous, ou en tant que vous ?

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  396. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    What has Harry Potter got to do with abortion on demand?
    or
    are you just trying to up the number of posts.
    sod off to GD please.

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  397. Johnboy (16,084 comments) says:

    Vous êtes magique à moi Yvette. Mais nous dérangeons les chrétiens fous ici. Nous devons être plus discrets.

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  398. Yvette (2,786 comments) says:

    399
    one to go

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  399. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    mes enfants, vous ne m’avez pas fâché, mais votre jeux à engranger le nombre est à la fois injuste et méchant. il arrêter maintenant et de passer au débat général s’il vous plaît. :-)

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  400. Johnboy (16,084 comments) says:

    Sûrement on devrait permettre les plaisirs simples des gens du commun Mike.

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  401. questlove (242 comments) says:

    TEO said:
    “The fact is there are so many differing points of view on this issue. No one can be quite sure if/when a foetus is “a human person with the rights of a human person”, so why take the risk of committing murder? That’s like a hunter recklessly shooting at their quarry without being quite sure if it’s a deer or a human.”

    This is a flawed analogy. In your hunter example ‘deer’ and ‘human’ are distinct concepts. With ‘fetus’ and ‘human person’ there are only philosophical positions. If someone holds a different position from mine it does not necessarily require me to assume my position wrong or act contrary to my position. (Not to mention the implications of consistently applying an appeal to uncertainty.)

    Also in a lot of cases there isn’t a haze of uncertainty that your analogy implies. Science gives us information regarding biological markers such as fetal viability and when the fetus is capable of feeling pain etc.

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  402. RKBee (1,344 comments) says:

    What 400+ comments.. what did I tell yah MikeNZ

    Again Yvette @ 5:02 pm shows us the reason and makes it all make sense.

    Now our MPs have their guide and justification to support the abortion on demand bill without asking us.

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  403. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    plaisirs ordinaires des gens simples sûrement JohnBoy?

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  404. Shunda barunda (2,982 comments) says:

    This is a flawed analogy. In your hunter example ‘deer’ and ‘human’ are distinct concepts. With ‘fetus’ and ‘human person’ there are only philosophical positions. If someone holds a different position from mine it does not necessarily require me to assume my position wrong or act contrary to my position.

    How about if someone simply asks for consistency in logic across the range of social issues?
    It strikes me that many pro abortion people often have “a bob both ways” regarding other social issues like parental authority, social welfare etc.
    They seem only too happy to support the “viability” of people that have perhaps proven they are anything but viable in a societal context, but happy to terminate life that they can have no real idea of its merit or lack thereof.
    The abortion issue is one of turning a blind eye to the blindingly obvious.

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  405. Viking2 (11,420 comments) says:

    Long long time since I learnt any French and the only bit that I remember is the cause of this debate,

    Voulez vous se couche un moir se soir ma cherie

    Which if I have remembered right says.
    Do you wish to sleep with me tonight my Cherie.

    That’s all from me. oh maybe not i might get an offer.Ha.

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  406. Johnboy (16,084 comments) says:

    Viking2 ….. Baaahhhh?

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  407. Viking2 (11,420 comments) says:

    Offer rejected.

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  408. Johnboy (16,084 comments) says:

    Bah. :)

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  409. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    @Viking2 – some help with your French skills … courtesy of Will Wyman: Je Suis un Rock Star

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  410. Viking2 (11,420 comments) says:

    I wish. haha

    Just to keep the bigots excited today and on their toes at lunchtime while on the bosses time.

    Abortions on young double in 20 years
    By REBECCA TODD – The Press
    Last updated 05:00 07/07/2010

    The number of children having abortions has almost doubled over the past 20 years.

    The latest statistics have prompted calls for parents to be informed if their daughter is considering an abortion, but health professionals say the move would be “disastrous”.

    Last year, 79 girls aged from 11 to 14 had abortions. Of those, 68 were 14-year-olds and 13 aged 11 to 13..

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/3891039/Abortions-on-young-double-in-20-years

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  411. Trink (2 comments) says:

    Im tired of hearing people with no standards and no heart saying its ok to snuf out healthy life. You will be blind to the effects of this mentality until the day they declare that children can be killed at any stage before they turn 18 and they say its discrimination to not allow children sexual relationships with adults or other children (look up what they are calling trans-generational “love”)
    live in your bubbles where we are all just animals, the rights of a RATIONAL adult come before innocent LIFE and as long as YOU are “happy” everything thing else including life is just Relative…….its your choice. yes women have wombs and men have the capactiy to impregnant them its called sex and i doesnt matter how hard you try to separate to two, they will always go together sex=pregnancy and its not a growing lifes fault that you didnt take that into account.
    so if your having sex and you get pregnant ITS YOUR FAULT YOU DEAL WITH IT!! because you may be able to remove that life from your womb and you can even remove that womb from your body! but you will never remove that life from your hands as long as you support convinence over innocent life.

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  412. Trink (2 comments) says:

    p.s not on my bosses time im my own boss! :)

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