Religious fanaticism

December 30th, 2011 at 9:00 am by David Farrar

Sadly all religions have fanatics. Of course the proportion of a who are fanatics is not the same in each , but here’s an example of some in Israel:

A shy 8-year-old schoolgirl has unwittingly found herself on the front line of ’s latest religious war.

Naama Margolese is a ponytailed, bespectacled second-grader who is afraid of walking to her religious Jewish girls school for fear of ultra-Orthodox extremists who have spat on her and called her a whore for dressing “immodestly.”

Anyone who calls an eight year old girl a whore should be ashamed of themselves, because their God most definitely will be.

The girls school that Naama attends in the city of Beit Shemesh, to the west of Jerusalem, is on the border between an ultra-Orthodox neighbourhood and a community of modern Orthodox Jewish residents, many of them American immigrants.

The ultra-Orthodox consider the school, which moved to its present site at the beginning of the school year, an encroachment on their territory. Dozens of black-hatted men jeer and physically accost the girls almost daily, claiming their very presence is a provocation.

No, firing guns is a provocation. Yelling whore at eight year olds is provocation. Going to school is not.

The televised images of Naama sobbing as she walked to school shocked many Israelis, elicited statements of outrage from the country’s leadership, sparked a Facebook page with nearly 10,000 followers dedicated to “protecting little Naama” and a demonstration was held in her honour. As the case has attracted attention, extremists have heckled and thrown eggs and rocks at journalists descending on town.

“Who’s afraid of an 8-year-old student?” said Sunday’s main headline in the leading Yediot Ahronot daily.

Beit Shemesh’s growing ultra-Orthodox population has erected street signs calling for the separation of sexes on the pavements, dispatched “modesty patrols” to enforce a chaste female appearance and hurled stones at offenders and outsiders.

Great to read of the response from most normal Israelis. The fanatics sound like they would be happy living with the Taliban.

Naama’s case has been especially shocking because of her young age and because she attends a religious school and dresses with long sleeves and a skirt. Extremists, however, consider even that outfit, standard in mainstream Jewish religious schools, to be immodest.

Maybe a hajib?

Protesters held signs reading, “Free Israel from religious coercion,” and “Stop Israel from becoming Iran.”

The abuse and segregation of women in Israel in ultra-Orthodox areas is nothing new, and critics accuse the government of turning a blind eye.

The ultra-Orthodox are perennial king-makers in Israeli coalition politics – two such parties serve as key members of the ruling coalition. They receive generous government subsidies, and police have traditionally been reluctant to enter their communities.

Worth remembering this story, when our own extremists advocate getting rid of a threshold for MMP, so we would end up like Israel (which has been increasing their threshold).

Tags: ,

138 Responses to “Religious fanaticism”

  1. niggly (832 comments) says:

    Another ultra-Orthodox example:

    “An ultra-Orthodox Jewish man was arrested in Jerusalem yesterday for allegedly calling a 19-year-old female soldier a slut when she refused to move to the back of a public bus.”
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10775813

    What has Israel become when even women soldiers get dissed (and by someone who probably refuses to serve)?

    Perhaps if ultra-Orthodox extremists hate women so much, hopefully they won’t have sex with them?

    Or are women their sexual play things?

    If the former then in time ultra-Orthodox extremists will hopefully die out?

    If the latter, then God help Israel – and their support in the international community might dwindle a bit further?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  2. rouppe (983 comments) says:

    They certainly seem to be bosom buddies with the Taliban, though they I am sure would be shocked at such a comparison.

    Interesting about the threshold thing. I would have thought that the solution was easy. If other major mainstream parties all considered them tainted, and refused to work with them, then how could they be effective?

    Sure, they could block almost anything the minority government wanted to do by voting against it as would the opposition parties, but then the population would see what a destructive force they are and surely they would die out?

    The threshold would have to be very high in Israel as the ultra orthodox make up about 8% of the vote. Take that to extremes, and make the threshold 25% so you end up with only 2 parties again. Wouldn’t work. In fact having a significant block like that might make the main parties work together a bit more…

    Either that or you end up banning undesirables. But who gets to decide who is undesirable…?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  3. ZenTiger (375 comments) says:

    Let’s hope that even as we read about these ultra orthodox in Israel they are not reading about the depravity of NZ, where tourists cannot even leave their 5 year old child in a caravan before a young sexual molester/deviant attacks them. Imagine the hand-wringing justifications for their bad behaviour we are providing them.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  4. Right of way is Way of Right (883 comments) says:

    As I have said for years, the most destructive and hateful force on the planet is intolerance.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  5. niggly (832 comments) says:

    ZT who cares what they think smart arse. Do you support them?

    PS – Big difference, they are open with their hostility towards women and act as a group. The thug in Turangi was acting on his own & probably high on drugs and alcohol (no excuse but different situation).

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  6. nasska (12,088 comments) says:

    The treatment of the little girl is a sad but not unexpected action from religious fundamentalists in the Middle East. No matter whether they are Jewish, Muslim or Christian the patriarchs of this area have a tradition of treating their women like shit. It is their barbaric culture which has been woven into their half baked religious creeds.

    Only where Christians & Jews have left their middle eastern homelands & enforced the partition between church & state has the lot of women improved. For the descendants of the unfortunates left behind it is as if time hasn’t moved for over 1400 years.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  7. pollywog (1,153 comments) says:

    oh word nasska…

    …unlike the virtuous western christians going back to the crusades, then onto the spanish inquisition, the pilgrim witchhunts in early american churches and their support of slavery, leading to the oh so pious and racistly polygamous paedophilic mormons and what the hell, we’ll throw a few tinpot messiahs like Jim Jones in there for laughs too eh…

    barbaric culture and half baked religious creeds treating women like shit much ?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  8. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    travellerev’s friends, Ahmadinejad supporters.
    Anti Israel, religious nutbars.
    Most of them refuse to serve in the army and are praying for the destruction of Israel.
    They believe that Jews are forbidden to have their own state until the coming of the Messiah.
    A large proportion of them however doesn’t have a problem living of state welfare.
    Despised by most Israelis as leeches.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  9. mavxp (483 comments) says:

    This is the “holier than thou” attitude which pisses everyone off about religion. It doesn’t matter what beliefs you profess, including atheism, if you think you are superior and impose your condescending views on others you are a complete schmuck. You do yourself, your family, your nation, your religion a complete dis-service, and engender hatred.

    Religious observances should be considered “rules for members” only and not imposed on others against their free will. In my reading of the Bible, this is exactly what Jesus would have wanted – everyone he encountered was given a free will choice. “Do unto others” was the golden rule. “Love God and love others as yourself” was his summary of the 10 commandments. In a world of multiple religions and races, and religious and nationalistic fanatics it was simple genius. Still is today.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  10. BlairM (2,340 comments) says:

    Perhaps if ultra-Orthodox extremists hate women so much, hopefully they won’t have sex with them?

    Or are women their sexual play things?

    This Jewish porn might provide some insight:

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  11. Andrei (2,653 comments) says:

    barbaric culture and half baked religious creeds treating women like shit much ?

    And the mass murder of the unborn, so important to the secular, is not even seen for what it is, an atrocity and a crime against humanity

    Oh the denseness of the enlightened

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  12. jonnobanks (148 comments) says:

    I posted his a few days ago, but will say it again, fundamentalism is wrong, no matter what version of the ‘holy book’ it is.

    http://news.sky.com/home/world-news/article/16132608

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  13. pollywog (1,153 comments) says:

    And the mass murder of the unborn, so important to the secular, is not even seen for what it is, an atrocity and a crime against humanity

    not one for sterilising the poor and ignorant then ?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  14. scrubone (3,097 comments) says:

    fundamentalism is wrong, no matter what version of the ‘holy book’ it is

    Yea… and “fundamentalism” is *such* a precisely defined term, which isn’t in any way used as an insult or way to shut down people opposed to those using it.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  15. Scott Chris (6,178 comments) says:

    Heck Israel was refounded by Zionist religious nutbars. Why would you want to disassociate yourself from their Zealotry if you support the wacky notion of a ‘promised land’?

    Basically the problem is the Abrahamic religions themselves, all of which schismed and started quarreling. Silly really.

    On the other hand, a naturist would see the rest of society as a bunch of religious nutbars. Other than for warmth, why wear clothes?

    It’s all relative really.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  16. nasska (12,088 comments) says:

    pollywog

    …”barbaric culture and half baked religious creeds treating women like shit much ?”……

    You’ll get no argument from me on this score. Religion is the natural result of humans being unable to understand the concepts of infinity & eternity. Religion is invented to provide answers & these harmless soulsoothers are then taken over by nutjobs seeking power over their fellow citizens.

    Religion like politics is the domain of control freaks.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  17. scrubone (3,097 comments) says:

    Religious observances should be considered “rules for members” only and not imposed on others against their free will. In my reading of the Bible, this is exactly what Jesus would have wanted – everyone he encountered was given a free will choice.

    You are free to accept or reject Christ. But Jesus never said that rejecting him will have no consequences – indeed the exact opposite, rejecting Christ will have the most serious consequences imaginable.

    If the point being made here is that such serious consequences lead people to say and do stupid things, I agree.

    Stupidity and losing perspective are part of the human condition. In a sense, fundamentalists of all stripes (and I include people who think that the New Atheists are intellectual giants in that) show us exactly why humanity needs a Savior.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  18. Martin Gibson (247 comments) says:

    If you familiarised yourself with the Talmud, which allows Rabbis to have sex with 3 year old girls and kill Goyim (that’s us non-Jews — it means “cattle”) you would perhaps be less shocked at this behaviour.

    To try and spin this as a story about how moderate Israelis are is just odd — around 90 percent of them supported “Operation Cast Lead” which involved dropping white phosphorous on civilians.

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=13956
    “Besides vast destruction and mass population displacement, 313 children were killed among the 1414 who died over a 23-day period. Of the 5300 injured (many seriously), 1606 were children. In all cases, the vast majority were noncombatants.”

    You say the orthodox Jews are like the Taliban which is true, but what you fail to note is how similar Zionists are to Nazis.

    Before you start squealing “Anti-Semitism!” read a bit of Jewish saxaphonist and former IDF soldier Gilad Atzmon’s writing on the mess that is Zionism.

    http://www.gilad.co.uk/

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  19. ZenTiger (375 comments) says:

    @Niggly

    ZT who cares what they think smart arse. Do you support them?

    You care, or you wouldn’t be commenting on this thread.
    No, I don’t support such behaviour.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  20. ZenTiger (375 comments) says:

    …”barbaric culture and half baked religious creeds treating women like shit much ?”……

    So is your theory that the Turangi Terror is a fundamental orthodox Jew then?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  21. PaulL (5,446 comments) says:

    Martin, not exactly unbiased links there. Yes, bad shit happens in the Middle East. Israel remains the only democracy in the middle east, and has by far the best human rights record. They do a bunch of stuff that I don’t agree with, and I’d rather they handled things differently. But until I have a solution to the “Israel problem” that doesn’t involve the ending of Israel, then I find it hard to insist that they should do things differently. Remember that they still have rockets fired into Israel pretty much every day – I’m pretty sure if a neighbouring country was firing rockets into NZ we’d do something about it (at least, I hope we would).

    DPF – no particular need to link this to NZ politics, particularly through such a tenuous link. This is a story about intolerance.

    Fundamentally, countries shouldn’t have laws that deal with religion. These folks shouldn’t be getting special treatment with regard to armed service, nor with regard to welfare. And they definitely shouldn’t be able to project their views onto people who aren’t of their particular faith.

    I always find it vaguely amusing how much muslims and jews have in common – the religions are so close to each other, particularly in the more fundamentalist flavours. Kind of like the sunnis and the shias at war with each other over some minor interpretation questions – the closer they are together, the harder they fight it seems.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  22. nasska (12,088 comments) says:

    …”So is your theory that the Turangi Terror is a fundamental orthodox Jew then?”…..

    There’s not a lot of information to base an opinion on released so far but on balance I consider it unlikely.

    A poor upbringing where women are treated like second class citizens such as experienced by the families of ethnic gangs would probably provide the same twisted background.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  23. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    @martin

    Why don’t you crawl back under your stone?
    What are you going to quote next, The Elders of Zion?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  24. wat dabney (3,840 comments) says:

    What is a “religious fanatic” but someone who takes their religion seriously and doesn’t simply ignore all the bits which our modern humanitarianism tells us are so vile.

    Contrast those with the “religious hypocrites” (i.e. the other 99%) who claim to take their morality from the Bible or Koran but in fact are so selective that it is simply an exercise in justifying their existnig prejudices.

    Obviously the religious hypocrites are vastly more preferable, but hypocrites they are nonetheless.

    So the first question is whether the actions of these “fanatics” is in accordance with scripture. If it is, then it’s not clear that others calling themselves Jews or Christians can but agree with them.

    Maybe the answer is in here:

    http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/int/long.html

    or here

    http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/fv/long.html

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  25. Fletch (6,521 comments) says:

    I agree that the little girl is treated very badly and should not be, but it’s interesting that DPF posts this and nothing about the many attacks on Christians over Christmas by Muslim radicals. One only has to check out jihadwatch.org for stories about daily happenings that are much worse than this.

    This is from the New York Times –

    MOGADISHU, Somalia — The girl’s voice dropped to a hush as she remembered the bright, sunny afternoon when she stepped out of her hut and saw her best friend buried in the sand, up to her neck.
    Her friend had made the mistake of refusing to marry a Shabab commander. Now she was about to get her head bashed in, rock by rock.
    “You’re next,” the Shabab warned the girl, a frail 17-year-old who was living with her brother in a squalid refugee camp.
    Several months later, the men came back. Five militants burst into her hut, pinned her down and gang-raped her, she said. They claimed to be on a jihad, or holy war, and any resistance was considered a crime against Islam, punishable by death.

    Somalia has been steadily worn down by decades of conflict and chaos, its cities in ruins and its people starving. Just this year, tens of thousands have died from famine, with countless others cut down in relentless combat. Now Somalis face yet another widespread terror: an alarming increase in rapes and sexual abuse of women and girls.

    The Shabab militant group, which presents itself as a morally righteous rebel force and the defender of pure Islam, is seizing women and girls as spoils of war, gang-raping and abusing them as part of its reign of terror in southern Somalia, according to victims, aid workers and United Nations officials. Short of cash and losing ground, the militants are also forcing families to hand over girls for arranged marriages that often last no more than a few weeks and are essentially sexual slavery, a cheap way to bolster their ranks’ flagging morale.

    http://nyti.ms/uO0ErN

    Not to mention the Christmas Day church bombings in Nigeria –

    https://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/26/world/africa/explosion-rips-through-catholic-church-in-nigeria.html?_r=1

    So, tell me which is worse – a little girl being hassled on her way to school, or teen girls being raped as the spoils of war, or buried up to their heads in sand and stoned if they don’t marry?

    I’m not saying either are right, but why concentrate on the Jewish girl with stories on Kiwiblog and ignore far worse extremists attacking, killing, burning, and raping those in Christian communities?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  26. pollywog (1,153 comments) says:

    So is your theory that the Turangi Terror is a fundamental orthodox Jew then?

    More likely a half baked christian of some description who hasn’t quite shaken off the heathen savagery of pagan Pasifika, inclusive of Maori, beliefs.

    Sounds like the kid could do with a healthy does of demon water flushing to get rid of his obvious maketu. Maybe even extend it to the wider whanau if they’re possessed of said curse also.

    …can’t be too careful where theres demons concerned eh ?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  27. KevinH (1,253 comments) says:

    If you are confronted by such a situation , ignore it. There are zealots of all religious ,political persuasions who deem it their role in society to enforce antiquated laws and are usually tiresome bores or opinionated oaf’s. Tell them to get a life and ignore them as best you can but most certainly don’t back down or change your plans for the day.
    Personally I am loathe to use foul language but on occassion I know a few abusive phrases that work well.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  28. Fletch (6,521 comments) says:

    Then there is the case of a Muslim man in Texas who murdered his family on Christmas morning. His daughter was dating non-Muslim boys.

    Grapevine police arrived at the Lincoln Vineyard Apartment Homes a few minutes before noon and discovered bodies sprawled among opened presents and wrapping paper. The victims were ages 15 to 58….

    Citing public records and interviews with friends and neighbors, media reports Monday identified Yazdanpanah and others who had died: his estranged 55-year-old wife, Fatemeh Rahmati, their 19-year-old daughter, Nona Narges Yazdanpanah, and 15-year-old son, Ali Yazdanpanah.

    Friends of the family said Fatemeh Rahmati’s 58-year-old sister, Zohreh Rahmaty, and her husband, Hossein Zarei, 59, and daughter Sahra Zarei, a 22-year-old pre-med student at the University of Texas at Arlington, also were killed.

    […]

    Neighbors said the family was Muslim but had always hung Christmas lights on their home — except this year.
    But a more ominous portrait emerged of Yazdanpanah in interviews with some of his daughter’s other classmates.
    “She would come to school crying and telling us her dad was crazy,” said Lacie Reed, 18. “He wouldn’t let her wear certain things. He was always taking her phone away, checking her call history and checking her text messages.”

    Friends said Nona’s father had installed cameras all around the home so he could watch the family’s comings and goings. Others said he nailed her bedroom window shut so she could not sneak out at night and see her boyfriend.

    “She couldn’t date at all until she was a certain age, but when he was going to let her date she couldn’t date anyone outside of their race or religion,” Reed said.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  29. PaulL (5,446 comments) says:

    Fletch: yes, nutjobs come in all shapes and sizes. What is your point? The story that DPF posted is interesting because we generally consider Israel to be first world (unlike Somalia), and generally consider the Jewish religion to be a bit more tolerant. No news that Muslims get up to these things. You seem to think this is some sort of conspiracy – if anything in my experience DPF defends a bit more of the goings on in Israel than I would.

    On a sidebar, interesting that Israel is the only country in the middle east where Muslims get to vote. Or was until recently – I guess I’ll hold back judgement on some of the newly minted democracies. What would make me very happy is if some of those countries were so democratic that they made Israel look intolerant, and that put pressure on them to improve. But not holding my breath.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  30. pollywog (1,153 comments) says:

    Then there is the case of a Muslim man in Texas who murdered his family on Christmas morning. His daughter was dating non-Muslim boys.

    I see that as more an example of intergenerational war. Boomers killing of the X’ers.

    par for the course with old fucks sending the youngers off to war, screwing the environment for future generations and selling off the kid’s inheritance like state assets and consigning them to a life of poverty…child abuse much ?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  31. wat dabney (3,840 comments) says:

    …who deem it their role in society to enforce antiquated laws

    The entire contents of the Bible and the Koran falls into this catagory.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  32. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    @CS

    “Heck Israel was refounded by Zionist religious nutbars.”

    No it wasn’t Chris. Early Zionists were mainly socialists and liberals.
    Read up on Herzl and Weizmann, they put great emphasis on communalism, egalitarianism and socialism.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  33. Manolo (14,165 comments) says:

    As the title of Hitchen’s book says: “God is not great“.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  34. Fletch (6,521 comments) says:

    “…who deem it their role in society to enforce antiquated laws”

    The entire contents of the Bible and the Koran falls into this catagory.[sic]

    Wat, that is quite an ignorant thing to say. If you’d bother to do investigate, you’ll see that most (antiquated?) democratic law is Judeo/Christian and based on the Bible.
    The Koran, on the other hand, is completely different to the Bible in what it teaches.

    For example, the Koran teaches –
    “The sacred month and the sacred precincts are under the safeguard of reprisals: whoever offereth violence to you, offer ye the like violence to him, and fear God, and know that God is with those who fear Him.” (Sura 2:190).

    And in the Bible, Jesus denounced the old “eye for an eye” teachings, and said –

    “But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.” (Matthew 5:39).

    Jesus also said that those who live by the sword shall die by the sword, whereas Mohammed was a warrior who killed many people and encouraged his followers to kill likewise unbelievers.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  35. Scott Chris (6,178 comments) says:

    Zen Tiger says:- “So is your theory that the Turangi Terror is a fundamental orthodox Jew then?”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  36. Fletch (6,521 comments) says:

    As the title of Hitchen’s book says: “God is not great“.

    Hitchens, now that he id dead, knows different….

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  37. cha (4,135 comments) says:

    Never miss an opportunity to display your hatred Fletch, the extremists in Beit Shemesh would be proud of you.

    Meanwhile…..Israeli reporter Shai Gal visits Beit Shemesh and Orthodox news site Vos Iz Neias has photos and video of the Police clashing with Charedim in Beit Shemesh.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  38. pollywog (1,153 comments) says:

    “Heck Israel was refounded by Zionist religious nutbars.”

    No it wasn’t Chris. Early Zionists were mainly socialists and liberals.

    gotta love what the early european colonial christian utopianists turned NZ into eh ?

    how’s that tame and civilised native population thing working out for you ?

    yeah nah…me neither

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  39. Fletch (6,521 comments) says:

    cha, what hatred?
    Denouncing killers and rapists? How is that ‘hatred’?
    I’m just trying to put things in perspective. Whatever one thinks of Israel, they are still the only democracy in the Middle East where 1 million Muslims live and have the freedom they have nowhere else.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  40. wat dabney (3,840 comments) says:

    that is quite an ignorant thing to say.

    It was a simple statement of fact.

    And no, most democratic laws are not based on the Bible. Follow those two links I provided. Do you see many of those cruel and violent “moral teachings” enacted in our laws? No, you don’t. And I don’t see any Christians volunteering to subject themselves to such unjust barbarities either.

    …and in the Bible, Jesus denounced the old “eye for an eye” teachings

    So Yahweh flatly contradicts himself. Earlier he teaches an eye for an eye, then later he teaches the opposite. Does he just toss a coin when he issues his moral teachings? Is it going to revert back tomorrow? You don’t know.

    Jesus also said that those who live by the sword shall die by the sword, whereas Mohammed was a warrior who killed many people and encouraged his followers to kill likewise unbelievers.

    Maybe so, but you’re completely ignoring the genocidal racial slaughter than your deity enacts earlier in the Bible. Which is exactly my point: Christians are so selective that they no more take their moral teachings from the Bible than I do.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  41. ZenTiger (375 comments) says:

    @Scott – well spotted. I thought the bright neon lights 24 metres high quite subtle, but you still noticed. Now if you could just consider what the comment was in response to…

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  42. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    PW, our own ‘Proto-Aryan’ ‘pasifikan’ ‘Joseph Arthur De Gobineau’ strikes again.
    Blah, blah, blah….

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  43. Manolo (14,165 comments) says:

    Ah, the hate-inciting tones of the stout and pacific Pasifikan matron.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  44. Fletch (6,521 comments) says:

    Maybe so, but you’re completely ignoring the genocidal racial slaughter than your deity enacts earlier in the Bible. Which is exactly my point: Christians are so selective that they no more take their moral teachings from the Bible than I do.

    wat, you may describe it as “genocidal racial slaughter”, but is it? Some of the peoples that Moses killed practised child sacrifice and the like.

    The moral culture of the Caananites differed dramatically from the moral culture of the Israelites. It is known that the people of Moab sacrificed their babies by placing them into the red hot hands of a heated statue of their god. I’m sure the Caananites thought what they were doing was right and moral.

    Who are you to say what is morally right or wrong? We’re talking about war. The US dropped an atomic bomb on Nagasake. Was that wrong of them? Was that “genocidal racial slaughter”? And if not, why not, and how does that differ from the peoples God told Moses to kill in war?

    Plus, is God not allowed to destroy what He has created Himself? Isn’t that up to Him?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  45. Scott Chris (6,178 comments) says:

    Other_Andy

    I take your point. My assumption that the Zionist movement being fundamentally religious was wrong.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  46. pollywog (1,153 comments) says:

    OA and manolo…

    intergenerational welfare dependancy by institutionalised racism and a eurocentric cultural bias towards Pasifikans = reap what you sow muthafuckas !!!

    no hate on my part but plenty of denial on yours.

    how about growing a pair and owning that shit ?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  47. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    “I take your point. My assumption that the Zionist movement being fundamentally religious was wrong.”

    Thanks Chris.

    That doesn’t mean that ‘Zionist religious nutbars’ are not trying to hijack the movement and Israel itself.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  48. wat dabney (3,840 comments) says:

    Fletch,

    You misunderstand. I am agreeing with you that Christians and Jews should actively support the racially-motivated wars of extinction initiated by the deity in their belief system.

    They should advocate the stoning to death of disobedient children.

    They shouldadvocate the execution of anyone and everyone who breaks the Sabbath.

    They shouldadvocate the execution of active homosexuals.

    They shouldadvocate the death by stoning of those who worship other deities.

    In short, they should agree with, support and advocate everything in these links (and more):

    http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/int/long.html
    http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html

    Do you agree with, support and advocate everything in those links?

    And, for example, have you religiously kept the Sabbath?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  49. cha (4,135 comments) says:

    The story is about a man dressed in a Santa suit who killed six members of his own family on Christmas morning then committed suicide. That the man’s wife had left him, his home had been foreclosed upon, his business was failing and he had filed for bankruptcy could be considered as strong motives for committing this massacre.

    But no, you’re so blinded by your hatred Fletch that you’ve decided that because all involved were Muslims this tragedy must be ‘an honour killing’.

    And I see you’ve parroted hate monger Gelllar so I doubt you’ve got an opinion of your own anyhow.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  50. Scott Chris (6,178 comments) says:

    Zen Tiger

    Oh I see. My bad. But as for the neon lights, irony is often lost in text especially when the full context of the exchange isn’t immediately evident. I use the tilde (~) to denote irony and sarcasm. (ie ~I believe in hell~)

    Still, I agree with niggly’s response to your ‘judge ye not lest ye be judged’ observation. The alleged Turangi perp probably wasn’t acting according to any ideology. That’s the difference.

    On the other hand, I’m not inclined to bash the moderate majority of Orthodox Jews because of a minority of wackos in their ranks. Provided they do no substantial harm.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  51. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    “intergenerational welfare dependancy by institutionalised racism and a eurocentric cultural bias towards Pasifikans”

    Big empty words…
    Meaning ‘I can’t help myself, it’s the [insert favourite racial slur] fault”
    And an example of your marxist anti-bourgeois, anti-capitalist, anti-conservative, anti-imperialist, anti-liberal, anti-reactionary, ‘Aryan Rein’ Pacifika utopia where the Pasifikan master race dwells is?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  52. Manolo (14,165 comments) says:

    Go and shed sixty kilos first, chubby Pasifika woman.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  53. Fletch (6,521 comments) says:

    wat, Stoning was the method of execution used in those days. Yes, it may seem harsh by today’s standards, but that is because you are trying to impose this present day moral system upon that of an ancient culture found in Scripture and then judging Scripture as though it is inferior to our own subjective morality. The verses you quote were written 3,000 years ago in a very different culture and location. I don’t think you’re interested in the history etc. You’re more eager to find anything that can be used as critical of the Bible.

    On the one hand, some of the penalties (death!) given for specific acts (bestiality, incest, homosexuality, striking one’s parents) seem harsh by contemporary standards—although in most cases there is little evidence that such penalties were ever actually enforced. “In practice…these [physical] punishments were almost never invoked, and existed mainly as a deterrent and to indicate the seriousness of the sins for which they were prescribed,” said the late biblical scholar Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan. “The rules of evidence and other safeguards that the Torah provides to protect the accused made it all but impossible to actually invoke these penalties.”

    Hutchinson, Robert (2007-10-15). The Politically Incorrect GuideTM to the Bible (The Politically Incorrect Guides) (pp. 103-104). Perseus Distribution-A. Kindle Edition.

    What about our own society and its morals? Now it’s OK to murder children in the womb. Isn’t that a kind of child sacrifice? And yet society turns a blind eye to it.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  54. pollywog (1,153 comments) says:

    Big empty words

    oh you mean like the treaty ?

    And an example of your Pacifika utopia where the Pasifikan master race dwells is?

    NZ in 50 years :P

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  55. nasska (12,088 comments) says:

    Fletch

    How do you justify the ‘pick & mix’ attitude shown by today’s Christians? When one of us state that the content of the Old Testament is a load of cobblers one of you will jump to defend it. When the absurdities are proven someone will point out that Jesus & his teachings made what is written in the OT redundant.

    Leviticus, for example, is full of rubbish about sin & punishment, totally irrelevant to today’s world. This should be obvious to even those who believe in unicorns never mind those who take it upon themselves to spread God’s word & save souls.

    Which is it? Either the OT is a load of historical crap which can be safely ignored or a Holy book which must be studied & obeyed to the letter. You debase your stance if you insist on having it both ways.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  56. nasska (12,088 comments) says:

    polywog

    …”NZ in 50 years”……

    In your dreams. Still, if you want to be here if it happens make sure you sprinkle plenty of bran on your taro.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  57. Fletch (6,521 comments) says:

    nasska, as I said above, you are trying to impose today’s morals on an ancient society. Here’s a snippet from The Politically Incorrect Guide to the Bible (I would advise reading the whole thing, if you’re interested :)

    The Mosaic Law: To amend or not to amend?

    In Judaism, these incomprehensible biblical laws are known as hukim, “commandments for which there is no convincing explanation, but which loyal Jews simply obey to demonstrate their obedience to the Divine will.”1 These include the laws of kashrut (or kosher eating), although many Jewish thinkers in the nineteenth century tried to find scientific rationales for many of the kosher laws (for example, the ban on eating pork might be related to avoiding the disease trichinosis).

    The truth is, of the 613 commandments that the rabbis find in the Torah, the overwhelming majority fall into one of three categories:

    a) still in force today in most civilized societies, although usually not with the same penalties
    b) ceremonial and cultic regulations for the Ark of the Covenant and the Temple (both of which no longer exist) or
    c) practical regulations related to life in a nomadic desert setting, which most people today do not share

    Does the fact that most modern people no longer observe various regulations relating to the Jewish Temple and dietary laws mean that we should ignore all of the laws in the Torah, including the prohibitions against incest, bestiality, and child sacrifice?

    In some ways, this is a more delicate question for observant Jews than it is for Christians, because Christianity has always believed that the Mosaic Law was, in some ways, only a partial and temporary dispensation meant to prepare a cruel world for the teachings of Christ. Orthodox Jews don’t look at it this way, of course, and find such an attitude more than a little condescending.

    In the Gospel of Mark, probably the earliest of the Gospels to be written, Jesus is asked by the Pharisees if it is “lawful” for a husband to divorce his wife. Jesus replies, “What did Moses command you?” The Pharisees say, “Moses permitted him to write a bill of divorce and dismiss her”—a reference to Deuteronomy 24:1. But Jesus says, “Because of the hardness of your hearts he wrote this commandment. But from the beginning of creation, ‘God made them male and female. For this reason, a man shall leave his father and mother, and the two shall become one flesh.’ So they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore, what God has joined together, let no man separate.”

    The clear implication of this passage is that some parts of the Mosaic Law, at least, were promulgated because of “the hardness of your hearts” and were not intended by God to be universally valid for all time. This willingness of Jesus to amend the written Law of Moses rattled and scandalized pious Jews of his time—as it, quite understandably, still does today. In Matthew’s version, Jesus says, “It was also said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife must give her a bill of divorce.’ But I say to you…”

    I say to you? The Jewish Talmud scholar Jacob Neusner, in his little book A Rabbi Talks with Jesus, claims that a pious Jew would have replied, “Who do you think you are? God?” Little wonder that the Gospels report the crowds were “astonished” by Jesus’s teaching—because he taught with “authority” and “not like the scribes.”

    At that same time, however, it doesn’t follow that Christians are supposed to ignore the biblical commandments, either. Jesus told his followers that he did not come to abolish the law and the prophets but to fulfill them—and added that “whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven and whoever obeys and teaches these commandments will be called greatest in the kingdom of heaven” (Mt 5: 19).

    It was clear that Jesus’s message was not a rejection of the Mosaic Law but a radicalizing of it: “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you, everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart” (Mt 5:27–28). So, why are these biblical commandments so blithely ridiculed on American television and through the Internet? Are they really a harsh regime of cruelty, comparable to the Islamic shariah of the Taliban, as the secular media pretend?

    Hutchinson, Robert (2007-10-15). The Politically Incorrect GuideTM to the Bible (The Politically Incorrect Guides) (p. 101). Perseus Distribution-A. Kindle Edition.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  58. pollywog (1,153 comments) says:

    So whats your prediction for Pasifika peoples in NZ, 50 years from now nasska ?

    let me guess…some nightmare scenario of violent criminals, mass imprisonments, un educated jobless youth, widespread poverty ?

    in other words more of the same, only more…so to avoid that, what do you suggest we do differently ?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  59. wat dabney (3,840 comments) says:

    Fletch,

    It’s completely irrelevant whether stoning seems harsh to us or not, just as it is irrelevant if those punishments were not often used in practise. We’re talking about what should be practised, according to the Bible. And we’re talking about the laws and morals which you and all other Christians should advocate and follow.

    The verses you quote were written 3,000 years ago in a very different culture and location.

    Surely this fact is irrelevent. Or are you saying the Bible teachings are irrelevant and can be ignored?

    So, to repeat, a good Christian – i.e. one who derives his morals from the Bible – advocates the following:

    – The stoning to death of disobedient children.
    – The execution of anyone and everyone who breaks the Sabbath.
    – The execution of active homosexuals.
    – The death by stoning of those who worship other deities.

    And all these besides:

    http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/int/long.html
    http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html

    If you don’t advocate all those laws then you are clearly not deriving your morals from the Bible, you are just selecting the handful which agree with your a prioris. And of course we can all do that: we can ignore the laws about homosexuality, for example, just as readily as you ignore the ones about the Sabbath, and with just as much justification.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  60. reid (16,681 comments) says:

    This isn’t actually about religion it’s about appallingly arrogant behaviour purportedly justified by a claim of religious requirement from the very people who act in this way.

    So in other words the offenders are claiming they’re doing it because this is what their religion requires. The offenders. Not every Jew says or does this, only the offenders.

    So I think we could discount whatever it is the offenders say is their reason, don’t you? Or does anyone with a deep understanding of Judaism think this is justified if so why? Other than that, what’s the point of pretending this is about religion or even that it’s typical religious thinking?

    It’s simply arrogant thugery. You see it a lot, shame those people however aren’t ostracised by their own society but instead bizarrely some even admire and approve of them.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  61. nasska (12,088 comments) says:

    Fletch

    If I had to paraphrase your “snippet” it would be along the lines of Jesus said to obey the Mosaic Law but at the same time he urged commonsense & humanity. Since you suggested that I read it I would think that you must follow the teachings of the OT otherwise you would have answered directly. Whichever way you look at it the OT is about 4000yrs old & the NT 2000yrs. Society as it was then would be unrecognisable today.

    It is not my intention to impose today’s morals on an ancient society. It is also not my intention to impose ancient morals on today’s society which is what Christians try to do.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  62. Martin Gibson (247 comments) says:

    Other_Andy (997) Says:

    December 30th, 2011 at 10:48 am
    @martin

    Why don’t you crawl back under your stone?
    What are you going to quote next, The Elders of Zion?

    Did you actually have an argument here old chap? Let’s break down your response . . .

    “Why don’t you crawl back under your stone?”
    Implication: “You are not human”.

    “What are you going to quote next, The Elders of Zion?”
    Implication: “Any pointing to Zionism’s moral failings is antisemitism of the worst kind”

    Both these are stock standard retorts to anyone who critcises Israel, and they’re just not enough anymore.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  63. Kimble (3,955 comments) says:

    you are trying to impose today’s morals on an ancient society

    We arent the ones demanding that todays morals be what was written in an ancient society.

    and were not intended by God to be universally valid for all time

    Which is a problem for anyone who believes in absolute morality.

    If morals change with time, then they cannot come from God, who is unchanging and timeless. They must come from something that changes. People.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  64. reid (16,681 comments) says:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2011/dec/28/israeis-rally-against-ultra-orthodox-extremists-video

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  65. nasska (12,088 comments) says:

    pollywog

    …”so to avoid that, what do you suggest we do differently ?”….

    If I knew do you think that I wouldn’t tell you? To date we can discount throwing unaccountable dollars at the problem because these get wasted in yap sessions & it would seem that your people don’t want any Pakeha led responses.

    I actually hope that any initiatives you take bear fruit otherwise NZ is not going to be a good place to live.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  66. TimG_Oz (866 comments) says:

    Probably no need for me to comment much here. I am on holiday after all.

    Obviously the vast majority of Israelis and Jews oppose the extremists, and find their behaviour repugnant. Even Orthodox Jews feel this is an insult to God. The Prime minister and President have both spoken out against this.

    No need for me to mention extremists in other religions who defile themselves by committing mass murder.

    Interesting is this Martin Gibson character. Candidate for United Future in East Cost Bays, and a journalist. I’m not really in for a debate today, but here is a statement I have copied previously (paraphrasing here).

    “Claiming any criticism of the Israeli Government is Anti Semitic is untrue, and it is vile to say so.

    However, as a rule of thumb, you can apply Natan Sharansky’s 3 ‘D’ Test on the argument:
    ‘Double Standards’
    ‘Delegitimisation’
    ‘Demonisation’

    If someone’s argument fails this test, then you must ask yourself why they lower themselves to make it”

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  67. pollywog (1,153 comments) says:

    I actually hope that any initiatives you take bear fruit otherwise NZ is not going to be a good place to live.

    so thats one cracka ass in support of a Pasifikan master race lording it over the weakling Eurocentrists in a utopian future NZ then…

    cheers…any more ?

    :)

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  68. nasska (12,088 comments) says:

    pollywog

    The Polynesian gene pool will need a flushing & good dose of chlorine before we see your Utopian master race.

    Anyway….we’re off topic.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  69. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    @martin

    1. You are trolling. This post is about orthodox Jews not about Gaza.
    2. You got your facts wrong and you conveniently leave out others.
    3. You are an ignorant shock-jock comparing Zionism with Nazism.

    And….
    I am not your ‘old chap’.
    Go and post your agitprop on the Standard.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  70. ZenTiger (375 comments) says:

    @Scott. Still, I agree with niggly’s response to your ‘judge ye not lest ye be judged’ observation. The alleged Turangi perp probably wasn’t acting according to any ideology. That’s the difference.

    I didn’t mean it as a “judge not” observation. I’m all for judging. I just wanted to judge a little more than the current topic. I wanted to consider if people acting without an ideology are somehow better than people who act because of one. The Turangi experience doesn’t convince me a lack of ideology is any better. Or perhaps they are driven by a new form of ideology. A “what ever I want” kind of belief system that works best when it isn’t named. Then other things can be blamed – drugs, alcohol, income inequality, culture…

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  71. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Gee, nasska, someone finally noticed!

    My two cents worth here is to support the earlier query as to why on god’s earth DPF chose to link this situation to our MMP system. It’s a pretty long bow when Israel’s threshold is already 2%, and even at 5% it’s very likely that the Ultras will still be just as powerful.

    The choice DPF appears to be offering is between stability (according to the gospel of St DPF, no doubt) or disempowerment – even up to 8% of the voting populace. In the post-colonial world of cuddled dictators, of course, the two went together.

    Meanwhile, poor old BIbi, dismayed by the progressive rapprochement between Fatah and Hamas, lashes out with yet more murderous bombing raids on the imprisoned population of Gaza.

    I would rate this event as more newsworthy than a few nutters on a bus somewhere in a society full of nutters – nutters who still think that the dispossession of Palestinians has the remotest chance of sticking in the long term.

    Dreams are usually free, but in this case those dreams are paid for by dead and oppressed Palestinians.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  72. pollywog (1,153 comments) says:

    Dunno about off topic nasska…

    Didn’t you know Pasifikans are also descendants of the lost tribe of Israel…the ultimate evolutionary end game of the chosen people of the conquering lion of the tribe of Judah ?

    My genepool couldn’t get more flush even if we tried. Like I’m 1/8th german as is, with a healthy dose of irish going back as well.

    and then there’s my superkids :)

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  73. Scott Chris (6,178 comments) says:

    Fletch says:- “nasska, as I said above, you are trying to impose today’s morals on an ancient society”

    So how do you decide which parts of the bible have lost their relevance? I think this convenient ‘picking and choosing’ is what many secularists find so ludicrous about the selective application of biblical morality. For instance, some men want to have sex with other men. To you and me the idea is distasteful but what actual harm does this do even in the context of ancient society? Surely the act of stoning them is far more harmful?

    And I agree with you about abortion. It could be seen as culturally acceptable infanticide. Personally I think that abortion contradicts our modern system of morality but I am in favour of terminating defective fetuses as well as being in favour of voluntary euthanasia.

    In the end it comes down to working out the social harm of any given action.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  74. burt (7,424 comments) says:

    My God demands that you stop following your God or I must kill you! – Yep… that’s a moral code worth following!

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  75. Dick (80 comments) says:

    As soon as I read the title I knew that there would be a post from Andrei with his usual fundamentalism. Here is a video of people like Andrei practicing their religion:

    http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1wjpg_stonedtodeath_news?start=126#from=embediframe

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  76. Elaycee (4,425 comments) says:

    Right on cue: enter the nutter and defender of terrorism perpetuated by the hands and guns of Hamas.

    Bleating because Israel defends (and will always defend) its own sovereign territory against terrorist attacks.

    And as long as terrorists continue to lob RPGs and rockets into the sovereign territory of Israel, they can expect Israel to defend itself in kind.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  77. reid (16,681 comments) says:

    So no provocation at all ever happens Elaycee? 100% of the time the only thing poor Israel does is defend herself against unjustified attack?

    Cognitive dissonance abounds on Israel particularly in conservatives. I wonder why?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  78. Elaycee (4,425 comments) says:

    Provocation, reid would be the speech by Iran’s Mahmoud Ahmadinejad that he will wipe Israel off the face of the earth. If provocation was a defence, Israel would be ‘entitled’ to drop one of its own on Tehran first. But Israel hasn’t responded…. yet. Indeed, the biggest noises about this provocative speech have come from Nato. Not a lot from the UN… Funny that.

    But Hamas is lobbing ordnance into the sovereign territory of Israel. THATs provocation. And the response is entirely predictable.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  79. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    @reid

    “So no provocation at all ever happens Elaycee?”

    You are absolutely right Reid. They are provoked all the time.
    They are provoked by the fact that Israel exists and above all by the fact that it is full of Jews.
    No wonder they are in a perpetual catatonic state.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  80. Lee C (2,720 comments) says:

    sorry just got here – my question is: What the F**k do these people have with the MMP debate in New Zealand?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  81. TimG_Oz (866 comments) says:

    Hi reid,

    What provocation? Clayton Weatherston used that as his defence. His crimes are as repugnant as Hamas. In fact Hamas’ and Islamic Jihad are far worse, as they repeat them over and over again.

    You posted some articles yesterday. Apparently attacks on Jews anywhere in the world are justified due to the undescribed “crimes” of Israel. And according to your link, attacks on Jews are therefore NOT anti-semitic.

    The only case of Cognitive Dissonance appears to be your own….

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  82. immigant (950 comments) says:

    Hey pollywog.

    so thats one cracka ass in support of a Pasifikan master race lording it over the weakling Eurocentrists

    Can you name one country that is run by niggers and is doing well please?

    [DPF: 50 demerits]

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  83. reid (16,681 comments) says:

    Oh you think most of the world is wrong when we say Israel acts like a bellicose bully Tim?

    Of course you do.

    The only people who seem to think this are generally conservatives (and also democrats, in the states only), from the tight five: Canada, US, UK, Aus, US.

    Most others think she’s a bully.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  84. reid (16,681 comments) says:

    Provocation, reid would be the speech by Iran’s Mahmoud Ahmadinejad that he will wipe Israel off the face of the earth.

    Elaycee you’re aware of the significant disputes over that comment and what it meant in terms of actually said vs reported to have said aren’t you.

    Otherwise one would be ignorant, wouldn’t one.

    Just in general terms extrapolating from your comment, what are your thoughts on the terrible western MSM pro-Israel bias, or don’t you even know it exists so you never see it?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  85. chiz (1,171 comments) says:

    There isn’t really any dispute over what Ahmadinanutjob said. There are certainly left wing idiots who have been spreading misinformation about his statament however.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  86. TimG_Oz (866 comments) says:

    No dispute on these quotes from Ahmadinejad though:

    · “Anybody who recognizes Israel will burn in the fire of the Islamic nation’s fury.”
    · “Remove Israel before it is too late and save yourself from the fury of regional nations.”
    · “The skirmishes in the occupied land are part of a war of destiny. The outcome of hundreds of years of war will be defined in Palestinian land. As the Imam said, Israel must be wiped off the map.”
    · “If the West does not support Israel, this regime will be toppled. As it has lost its raison d’ tre, Israel will be annihilated.”
    · “Israel is a tyrannical regime that will one day will be destroyed.”
    · “Israel is a rotten, dried tree that will be annihilated in one storm.”

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  87. reid (16,681 comments) says:

    There are certainly left wing idiots who have been spreading misinformation about his statament however.

    Whereas the MSM can be trusted all the time not to do that in anyway right? This is not a left-right issue, it should not be confused as such.

    No dispute on these quotes from Ahmadinejad though:

    Tim perhaps you can answer this for me because no-one has ever been able to. Why isn’t Iran allowed to have the bomb? Why is it automatically assumed that Iran if she had it would use it? Why aren’t Israel’s 350+ nukes taken into account as a deterrent factor whenever Iran getting a nuke is discussed by the Western MSM?

    Why doesn’t MAD apply here, when it applies everywhere else in the world, including in NK?

    An answer to that would be really good cause as I say, I’ve asked before and on-one has said anything.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  88. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    immigant

    Can you name one country that is run by niggers and is doing well please?

    Could you tone it down a bit immigant, no need to imitate the resident race baiter.
    And….
    Would Botswana do?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  89. Richard29 (377 comments) says:

    Typo: It’s Hijab not Hajib – or if you are not comfortable quoting terms in somebody elses language then just call it a headcovering or veil.

    I agree that 5% is probably not a bad threshold – it means that parliament is likely to be made up off a few meaningful sized blocks.

    Drop to about 3% and you get the likes of Christian Heritage and Conservative Party, drop to 1% and you’d get folks like Destiny Church and Family First – but on the upside you’d also get Aotearoa Legalise Cannabis and the Bill and Ben Party!

    I can more or less live with Winston, most of the policy he has delivered has been handouts to the elderly, which while expensive and probably unnecesary are not that harmful. I wouldn’t like a scenario where a close election delivers Bishop Brian Tamaki the balance of power – although given his reputation his first policy demand would probably be tax code changes for selected churches!

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  90. chiz (1,171 comments) says:

    reid:Whereas the MSM can be trusted all the time not to do that in anyway right? This is not a left-right issue, it should not be confused as such.

    It seems to be parts of the left/far left that is spreading this misinformation about Ahmadinanutjob. It was after the Iranian News agency IRNA itself that first offered up an english translation of what Ahmadinanutjob said. The BBC picked up the story and when claims started surfacing that his statement had been mistranslated the BBC asked its Farsi unit to look into the matter and they concluded that the translation was the best one could do into english and that it was essentially correct.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  91. reid (16,681 comments) says:

    chiz try not to get fixated on a minor detail. There’s plenty of material on what that quote was and meant and where it came from and that’s not really the point.

    It’s a wider thing. Does Israel play a straight bat or not and if not, does the western MSM actively collude in covering or not covering certain things which would be good to know and which it would cover if it wasn’t colluding?

    It’s not about one particular comment.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  92. ZenTiger (375 comments) says:

    Bill and Ben is an upside? You don’t read much news then?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  93. Scott Chris (6,178 comments) says:

    Blimey, I’d feel provoked if someone set up their nation in my back garden. I’d be pissed off with the people who let them do it too. But they’re there now, so the best we can hope for is an outbreak of sanity.

    Not sure what Armoured-Dinner-Jacket has got to do with disproportionate responses to a few fireworks being lobed into the desert. Comes from the same school of thought that conflated Iraq with 9/11.

    The 30 or so Israelis killed by rockets in the last decade is insignificant compared to the wider conflict. The score?

    6,537 Palestinians and 1,092 Israelis dead.

    http://www.ifamericaknew.org/stats/deaths.html

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  94. chiz (1,171 comments) says:

    Sorry reid. There are people, including Luc and others here, who don’t know this stuff and who do deny what he said, and I wasn’t sure if you were one of them or not

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  95. Graeme Edgeler (2,972 comments) says:

    Worth remembering this story, when our own extremists advocate getting rid of a threshold for MMP, so we would end up like Israel (which has been increasing their threshold).

    So, you think I’m as bad as someone who spits at young children. Umm, fuck you.

    Who was it who wrote the other day:

    There is the belief that they are inherently good, and that those from the centre-right are inherently bad, so hence anything which helps deliver Labour to victory is culturally acceptable.

    Yet people who disagree with you on the threshold are “extremists”?

    And why wouldn’t we end up like Finland or the Netherlands, which also have no threshold? Perhaps Israel, which has always had a threshold, should change it to zero, so that they end up like Finland or the Netherlands, having a 1, then 1.5 then 2% threshold has been a problem… etc.

    You extremists make me sick etc.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  96. Richard29 (377 comments) says:

    @Zentiger
    Another good reason to have a threshold high enough to keep Bill and Ben and Christian Heritage out of parliament! If we’d fixed the stupid electorate seat exemption we could have got rid of the justice spokesperson who stole the identity of a dead baby. It’s not a complete safety net though – Winston has brought some interesting folks into parliament with him this time:
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10771554

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  97. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    chiz

    I’m perfectly aware about all the infantile demonisation of a transient leader who, to us, offers inflammatory rhetoric, but, in reality, is doing what all politicians do and playing to his home crowd. Have you ever looked at the rants of Israel’s current thuggish FM?

    And of course, western media and governments encourage the most extremist interpretations, just as one T Blair would terrorise his own people with threats of total destruction of the UK in only 40mins via non-existent WMDs

    Blah, blah, blah.

    I’m interested in freeing Palestinians from belligerent occupation. Iran is a sideshow.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  98. reid (16,681 comments) says:

    Iran is a sideshow.

    Only if you think WWIII is a side-show Luc.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  99. TimG_Oz (866 comments) says:

    Hi Reid … I started answering your 4.54pm, but have been called away by the family. I’ll be back online in a few days, so ask me again on GD and I’ll answer…

    Cheers

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  100. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    reid

    The context of that statement is in regard to the Question of Palestine. So please don’t project.

    However, indulge me do tell what your WWlll scenario entails.

    We’ve subscribed to Soho and have developed quite a fondness for fantasies.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  101. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    @reid

    Why isn’t Iran allowed to have the bomb? Why doesn’t MAD apply here, when it applies everywhere else in the world, including in NK?

    Mutual Assured Destruction, or mutually assured destruction (MAD), is a doctrine of military strategy and national security policy in which a full-scale use of high-yield weapons of mass destruction by two opposing sides would effectively result in the complete, utter and irrevocable annihilation of both the attacker and the defender

    This implies that both countries would see the death of their citizens and destruction of their own country as something negative. So would Iran be deterred by the knowledge that they will be destroyed by Israel if they destroy Israel?

    Ever heard of the 12th Imam, the Hidden Imam or the Mahdi? Ahmadinejad beliefs in the coming of this Madhi, a religious messianism that, some suspect, is giving the Iranian leader a dangerous sense of divine mission. Ahmadinejad is devoted to the Hidden Imam, the Messiah-like figure of Shia Islam, and the president believes that his government must prepare the country for his return.
    Read more here….
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iran/1507818/Divine-mission-driving-Irans-new-leader.html

    This apocalyptic worldview, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad’s statements that Israel should be wiped off the map and his belief that dying for Islam is an honour and something to rejoice in might makes many people uneasy.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  102. wat dabney (3,840 comments) says:

    Why isn’t Iran allowed to have the bomb?

    Jesus fucking christ.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  103. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    For sane commentary, reid, try this:

    http://www.juancole.com/2011/12/iranian-navy-menaces-oil-exports-from-hormuz.html

    Extract:

    “Israel, the US and some European states maintain that Iran has a secret nuclear weapons program, but there is no really good evidence for any such thing if by that you mean a rush to construct an actual warhead. The real problem for Israel and its allies is that Iran’s civilian enrichment program is potentially dual-use. If Iran can enrich uranium to 3.5 percent for nuclear reactor fuel, it could in theory use its centrifuges to enrich to 95 percent for a bomb. Israel and the US don’t want Iran even to have the possibility of making a bomb if Tehran someday chooses to, since that would knock Israel down a peg on the Middle East pecking order.”

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  104. Scott Chris (6,178 comments) says:

    Hell, give everyone the bomb. Ironically the Mexican Standoff resultant of the nuclear arms race appears to be our species’ salvation…. so far.

    Iran isn’t going to opt for self destruction anymore than anyone else, but the longer we keep them a pariah state, the more likely they are to act subversively.

    Ron Paul is right. Remove sanctions now.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  105. reid (16,681 comments) says:

    Why would Iran knowing it would get obliterated from the planet denotate a nuke in Israel? Why?

    To what advantage would that be knowing as I said above, MAD ensues.

    None of you have addressed that simple question yet pending Tim’s response which I’m sure will be formidable but none of the rest of you Israel-firsters have. Yet. So why don’t you.

    Please don’t point to speeches by individuals or general innuendo about “mad mullahs” point to policies, point to documents, any evidence which backs up your proposition which as I understand it correct me where I’m wrong, is that Iran is ruled by the Ayatolla alone and that he and other mullahs alone including Mr. Dinner Jacket control every single decision everywhere.

    Point me to that evidence that Iran as a country today actually operates that way for that is the way it would have to operate before one could believe your scenario that Iran will automatically detonate, isn’t it.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  106. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Tim’s off on a Hasbara refresher course. He’ll be well primed. Look forward a wonderful example of the Monckton method: start with a lie and build on that with stunning verbosity.

    Never mind the reality, feel the deception.

    Anyway, time to start on my holiday reading with a little light Noam Chomsky (New World of Indigenous Resistance) and I just downloaded to my Kindle some Ilan Pappe as well (The Forgotten Palestinians – A History of the Palestinians in Israel).

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  107. reid (16,681 comments) says:

    However, indulge me do tell what your WWlll scenario entails.

    This guy’s prediction Luc, sorry, had not read your above before my 7:37

    http://www.threeworldwars.com/albert-pike.htm

    I just downloaded to my Kindle some Ilan Pappe as well (The Forgotten Palestinians – A History of the Palestinians in Israel).

    I suggest a bit of Adam Hall as well Luc.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  108. cha (4,135 comments) says:

    Things are going from bad to worse in Beit Shemesh with hundreds of Haredim clashing with police and a Haredi man indicted for sexually harassing a female soldier on a bus.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  109. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Adam Hall? The NHL player? I admit the NHL is great to watch, but what that’s got do with MMP?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  110. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    cha

    Haredim throwing stones and none were shot?

    How interesting.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  111. reid (16,681 comments) says:

    Adam Hall Quiller Amazon – best espionage you’ve ever read

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  112. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    Haredim throwing stones and none were shot?
    How interesting.

    And when that happens they can always protest the ‘Palestinian’ way. Put women and children in the front and young men in their late teens and early 20s, armed with rocks, sling shots, Molotov cocktails in the back.
    And of course, don’t forget to invite the media in case one of those Zionist pigs tries to defend himself.
    Works like a treat.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  113. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    There you go again, Andy. Those Zionist pigs – your words, not mine: I would have said IDF soldiers – you talk about are not defending themselves. They are occupiers, and generally engaged in suppressing demonstrations against said occupation. Resistance to occupation is legal, within certain constraints, and most certainly peaceful demonstrations are legal resistance.

    I’m sorry, but hard as I may try, I can’t dredge up sympathy for your Zionist pigs armed with the best weapons the US can supply, for free and no strings other than looking after Uncle Sam’s interests.

    Viva la resistance!

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  114. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    @ reid 6:00pm

    Cheers, thanks for the context. I thought the WWlll thing was a bit strange for you!

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  115. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    Noam Chomsky and Ilan Pappe

    Communist and anarchist.
    Can I also recommend Richard Harwood, Saul Alinsky, Richard Cloward and of course Pierre Guillaume which ties in nicely with Chomsky’s ideas.
    Extreme left meets extreme right.
    Hitler meet stalin.
    A means can be justified only by its end. But the end in its turn needs to be justified.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  116. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    They are occupiers..

    Occupying what?

    …. looking after Uncle Sam’s interests.

    And those interests are?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  117. reid (16,681 comments) says:

    Occupying what?

    The Tomb of Zoltar, Andy.

    And those interests are?

    According to NBC it’s unleashing the flames of hell upon humanity just because they can. It would be good if you could stop them Andy but if not hey, we all understand. Thanks for giving it a go anyway.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  118. reid (16,681 comments) says:

    P.S. Apologies for the off topic.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  119. Fletch (6,521 comments) says:

    As far as what Iran want, Ahmadinajad is a “twelver”. He believes in the coming of the Twelfth Imam, or the Mahdi. He believes that starting a war will hasten the arrival of the Mahdi. In reality, the Mahdi could be the antichrist.

    From the Wall Street Journal –

    Ahmadinejad constantly talks of the Hidden Imam but almost never mentions Ruhollah Khomeini, the mullah who created the present regime. Nor is Ahmadinejad keen to pay tribute to Khamenei. A man who talks to God wouldn’t bother with mere saints.
    Several times a year, Ahmadinejad takes his entire cabinet to Jamkaran, a suburb of the “holy” city of Qom south of Tehran, to report to the Hidden Imam. In Jamkaran there is a well that is supposed to lead to the place where the Hidden Imam is in hiding. In a solemn ceremony, Ahmadinejad throws copies of his government’s budget and other edicts into the well for consideration by the Hidden Imam.
    The message is clear: A government that is preparing for the end of times, under the command of the Hidden Imam, does not need the mullahs.

    Here is a video of Ahmadinejad giving a speech at the UN saying he prays Allah would “hasten the arrival” of the Imam.

    So, who is the Twelfth Imam supposed to be?

    The Twelfth Imam was a real, flesh-and-blood person who lived during the ninth century AD. Like the eleven Shia religious leaders who went before him, he was an Arab male who, as a direct descendent of the founder of Islam, was thought to have been divinely chosen to be the spiritual guide and ultimate human authority of the Muslim people. His name was Muhammad Ibn Hasan Ibn Ali. It is generally believed by Shias that he was born in Samarra, Iraq, in AD 868, though few details of his brief life are certain or free from controversy. Sunnis, for example, believe he was born later. Before he could reach an age of maturity, when he could teach and counsel the Muslim world as was believed to be his destiny, Ali vanished from human society. Some say he was four years old, while others say five and some say six. Some believe he fell into a well in Samarra but his body was never recovered. Others believe the Mahdi’s mother placed him in the well to prevent the evil rulers of the time from finding him, capturing him, and killing him—and that little Ali subsequently became supernaturally invisible. This is where the term “Hidden Imam” is derived, as Shias believe that Ali is not dead but has simply been hidden from the sight of mankind—Shias refer to this as “occultation”—until the End of Days, when Allah will reveal him once again.

    MORE – http://flashtrafficblog.wordpress.com/2010/10/21/qa-10-questions-on-the-twelfth-imam-and-shia-islamic-end-times-theology/

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  120. Yoza (1,926 comments) says:

    The entire rant about religious fanatics spitting on eight year old school girls is summed up in the final sentence:
    “Worth remembering this story, when our own extremists advocate getting rid of a threshold for MMP, so we would end up like Israel (which has been increasing their threshold).”

    Apparently, increasing democratic representation is a gateway to religious fundamentalism. Weird, even for someone from the far right end of the political spectrum. Although it is not difficult to see where this kind of reactionary rhetoric finds purchase when reading some of the comments posted here.

    Israel, regardless of its system of proportional representation, will be the master of its own demise. Without massive economic and military support from the US, Israel will cease to exist in its current state. Only an idiot would believe the US backs Israel because they are fond of Jews or they fear the power of AIPAC. The US (with the cooperation of Western Europe and Middle Eastern henchmen ) is building up its military resources in and around this planet’s most valuable energy reserves for its own selfish reasons, Israel is little more than an appendage of the US military establishment’s threat to the region – another stick with which to beat the Arabs (or Persians in the case of Iran.)

    As a number of commentators have pointed out, in the face of the threat posed to the region by decades of military aggression by the likes of the US and Israel, Iran would be mad it were not attempting to develop a nuclear deterrent.

    Once Israel’s strategic significance ceases to be of consequence to the US, economic and military support will drop off precipitously, similarly, the ‘threat’ to western society that is Iranian religious fundamentalism will diminish as the last of the region’s energy reserves are hoovered up.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  121. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Fletch

    You do understand that Nejad doesn’t actually call the shots in Iran, don’t you?

    Ah well, maybe not.

    Anyway, his second term ends soon so then who will be your new favorite bogeyman?

    Andy

    Perhaps it’s getting late for you, but coherence is never your strong suit, anyway. Hitler and Stalin were totalitarians, end of story. I don’t care if Chomsky and Pappe are Buddhist – it’s facts that count.

    Who is occupied?

    The Occupied Palestinian Territories, silly.

    Uncle Sam’s interests? Black gold, Texas tea…

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  122. JamesS (352 comments) says:

    To that loon who was advocating the mass murder of gay people; do not be surprised (or a cry baby) if the task turns out not to be as easy as it looks as gay people defend themselves and wouldbe hate crime committers find themselves disarmed (and given a good kicking for their trouble).

    I agree with DPF about the MMP threshold; I have always advocated (even 20 years ago during the referendum debates) a threshold of 10%

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  123. Elaycee (4,425 comments) says:

    As predicted, the regular zealots emerge and spout their usual bile about the sovereign state and the sovereign territory of Israel.

    Like it or not, Israel isn’t moving. And the inflammatory actions perpetuated by the terrorist organisation Hamas, won’t change anything (apart from increasing the casualty rate). And correction for the arch Hamas propagandist Luc: There is actually no territory called ‘Palestine’. And there isn’t a City called Atlantis either. Both are myths. FIFY.

    Back on topic: also agree with the suggestion that the threshold should be raised rather than lowered in NZ. We have enough lunatics in our midst now – the suggestion that we should make it easier for more to enter Parliament, is simply scary.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  124. Put it away (2,872 comments) says:

    Oh look, Luc is back, and still hating Jews. Quelle surprise!

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  125. Yoza (1,926 comments) says:

    “There is actually no territory called ‘Palestine’.”

    Yes, it appears Palestinians are to be consigned to the “memory hole”, an “unpeople” who no longer meet the required standard to pass as human beings. Noam Chomsky’s point that, “It is a poor service to the memory of the victims of the Holocaust to adopt the central doctrine of their murderers.”, is best demonstrated in the rhetoric of the apologists for the Israeli ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from historic Palestine.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  126. JamesS (352 comments) says:

    If the people of Israel were not Jews no one would give a toss about Palestinians and no one would question the right of Israel to exist.

    There is something – something dark and evil – within the human core which makes many unable to resist a dig or criticism of Jews whenever the opportunity presents itself; no matter how many people are murdered by Palestinian terrorists – doesn’t matter when you can accuse Jews of __________ [write your pet Jewish hate here] in a sanctimonious manner.

    Israel could become a peaceful, friendly, economically vibrant nation solving all manner of the World’s problems. “Doesn’t matter – they are Jews and we secretly hate them!” (according to many)

    In Gaza Palenstinian terrorists could engage in widespread chainsawing up of babies – 500 per day, for instance – and it would not matter “oh look how these poor people are being victimised by JEWS!”

    Been happening for 2000 years.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  127. Nigel (493 comments) says:

    Interesting timing for this to become a story, I mean the buses have been segregated for what 20 years now.

    I suspect it crept up on Israel, tolerated where it was not obvious & politically convenient ( to whit DPF’s threshold comment, though how sexism at this level can be justified for political means says more about those that allowed it than the political system ).

    But also I suspect the govt was unable to stop this being a story this time, be real curious what that was, maybe social media.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  128. Scott Chris (6,178 comments) says:

    JamesS says:- “within the human core which makes many unable to resist a dig or criticism of Jews whenever the opportunity presents itself”

    Rubbish. You’re implying that Israel should be above criticism, and that anyone who dares to have a critical opinion of Israel is an anti-Semite. That is a very dangerous mode of thought.

    If you take the emotion out of the argument and concentrate on describing the situation as it is, then in theory there should be no prejudice or bigotry.

    What most people argue about when it comes to the Israel/Palestine conundrum, is what constitutes fairness and justice. Race has nothing to do with those ideas.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  129. Fletch (6,521 comments) says:

    “There is actually no territory called ‘Palestine’.”

    Yes, it appears Palestinians are to be consigned to the “memory hole”, an “unpeople” who no longer meet the required standard to pass as human beings

    There is no such thing as “Palestine”, the nation.

    “Palestine” is a geographic term, much like The Antipodes describes our area here down under. Is there such a thing as an ‘Antipodean’ language, culture, or people? Of course not. Same with Palestine. Even Jews before 1948 were lumped in and called Palestinians.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  130. JamesS (352 comments) says:

    Scott Chris – yes I do believe that people with critical opinions of Israel are anti-semites. Comments on here (and 1000001 other blogs) confirm my view.

    You simply hate Jews. End of.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  131. Yoza (1,926 comments) says:

    Conflating Jewishness with crimes committed by the state of Israel is the real anti-Jewish sentiment. There are a large number of Jewish organisations and individuals who are appalled by Israel regularly committing crimes against humanity. No doubt, there were those who considered all Europeans everywhere were responsible for the crimes committed by the apartheid regime in South Africa – it is the exact same rationale.

    As people of European descent cannot collectively be held responsible for the crimes carried out by the white apartheid regime in South Africa; similarly, people of Jewish descent cannot collectively be held responsible for the criminal activity of the state of Israel.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  132. Yoza (1,926 comments) says:

    JamesS “Scott Chris – yes I do believe that people with critical opinions of Israel are anti-semites.”

    Foolish, the Palestinians are a semitic people. The great act of anti-semitism being carried out in Israel is the ethnic cleansing of the indigenous semitic population (Palestinians) by predominantly European colonists who happen to be descended from Europeans who converted to Judaism in the twelfth century.

    Fletch: “There is no such thing as “Palestine”, the nation. … Even Jews before 1948 were lumped in and called Palestinians.”

    There is a definite trend in the ‘Anglosphere’ establishment to air-brush Palestinians from their existence as an historically legitimate population, no amount of equivocating can hide this reality.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  133. Scott Chris (6,178 comments) says:

    JamesS says:- “You simply hate Jews. End of.”

    Quite the contrary. Most of the people I admire and like the most have Jewish ancestry. Einstein, Woody Allen, Larry David, Jon Stewart, Richard Feynman, the Cohen Brothers, Spinoza and the historical Jesus etc…

    They do suck at sport though. Fucking short assed big nosed woosies.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  134. reid (16,681 comments) says:

    I do believe that people with critical opinions of Israel are anti-semites

    Yes JamesS so do a lot of other people too. Why is that? Why is it impossible for people like you to assess and judge the actions of the Israeli govt separately to whether or not such an assessment is “anti-Semetic?”

    I mean in the real world one separates and judges any other govt from its people all the time. Say if the Aussie govt does something stupid and counter-productive in the foreign policy arena, there is no widespread consensus amongst people that criticising said govt would be a betrayal of the Australian people.

    Only in Israel does one find this conflation amongst people who think like you do.

    The fact people like you only apply such thinking toward Israel and not to any other country on Earth is a sign people like you JamesS are looking at things the wrong way. You’re being inconsistent in your analysis. Of course you think such bias is valid as a matter of fact people like you think you’re not biased it’s the other people who are. But think about it JamesS, the other people, those who feel free to criticise Israel without thinking it’s a betrayal of her people, are the ones who are consistent, it’s people like you who are the inconsistent ones.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  135. Fletch (6,521 comments) says:

    There is a definite trend in the ‘Anglosphere’ establishment to air-brush Palestinians from their existence as an historically legitimate population, no amount of equivocating can hide this reality.

    Yoza, I’m sorry, but what “reality”? Show me.
    There is no such people or culture. If there is a “Palestine” is is called Jordan.

    ‘Palestinian’ politician Zouhair Moussein told the Dutch newspaper Trouw in 1977 (hat tip: Israel Matzav):

    The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct ‘Palestinian people’ to oppose Zionism.

    For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.

    Palestine is Jordan, even the Jordanian Kings admit it –

    Here is Melanie Philips –

    Anyone familiar with the history knows it is correct [that ‘Palestine’ is Jordan]. Immediately after World War One, Palestine consisted of what is now Jordan, Israel, the West Bank and Gaza. The great powers dividing up the region decided that Britain should be given a mandate to administer Palestine and restore within it the historic Jewish national home. Within a couple of years, however, Winston Churchill, for reasons of realpolitik, gave away three quarters of Palestine to the Hashemite dynasty to found (Trans)Jordan (leaving all the rest to be settled by the Jews; but that’s another story).

    So Jordan is indeed Palestine. As Camie Davis points out, the Arabs themselves repeatedly said so:

    Jordanians, for decades, were avid proponents of the ‘Jordan is Palestine’ position. They used that position as justification for the annexation of the West Bank, arguing that Palestine was one single, indivisible unit, and that Jordan was the legitimate governing body of Palestine…

    ‘We are the government of Palestine, the army of Palestine and the refugees of Palestine.’ Prime Minister of Jordan, Hazza’ al-Majali, 23 August 1959

    ‘Palestine and Transjordan are one.’ King Abdullah, Arab League meeting in Cairo, 12 April 1948

    ‘Palestine is Jordan and Jordan is Palestine; there is one people and one land, with one history and one and the same fate.’ Prince Hassan, brother of King Hussein, addressing the Jordanian National Assembly, 2 February 1970

    ‘Jordan is not just another Arab state with regard to Palestine, but rather, Jordan is Palestine and Palestine is Jordan in terms of territory, national identity, sufferings, hopes and aspirations.’ Jordanian Minister of Agriculture, 24 September 1980

    ‘The truth is that Jordan is Palestine and Palestine is Jordan.’ King Hussein 1981

    Indeed, until 1970 the Palestine Liberation Organisation conducted terrorist operations against Jordan on the grounds that it was Palestine and the Hashemite minority was ruling the Palestinian majority. It was only after Jordan killed thousands of Palestinians in ‘Black September’ (and who in the west ever cared about that??) that Israel suddenly became the sole historic homeland’ of the Palestinians and Jordan was airbrushed out of the picture — and the fabrication of ‘Palestinianism’ became the accepted truth.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  136. joana (1,983 comments) says:

    Great posts Fletch..Dream on Cha , reality may hit you one day.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  137. F E Smith (3,307 comments) says:

    An very relevant article by Barry Rubin at Pajamas Media, which includes this:

    Oh yes, a bus driver took it upon himself to tell a woman to sit in
    the back of a bus because her sitting elsewhere might disturb Haredi
    men. She took it to court and, of course, won. A man who is a member of a
    tiny extremist cult  in a small town spit at an Orthodox eight-year-old
    girl, apparently he belongs to some extreme sect or is somewhat
    disturbed. Even the strictest reading of Jewish law does not justify
    such an action.
    There were huge demonstrations against the actions of this one person
    or tiny sect. President Shimon Peres publicly called for protests and
    Jerusalem’s police chief asked rabbis to condemn such behavior.  The
    state and the public is clearly against any violation of democratic
    norms. Oh, and incidentally this group in Bet Shemesh has something in
    common with those trying to blow this up into a big issue–they are
    anti-Zionist. Haredi extremists who are against accepting Israeli norms
    on the rights of women are also against accepting Israel altogether. So
    how are they examples of Israeli values and democracy? They aren’t.

    And I cannot resist quoting this, either

    A large portion of Western television stories and articles on Israel
    is designed to give the worst possible impression of the county as
    dictatorial at home and evil in its foreign policy. We used to think the
    coverage was slanted but we never dreamed it would reach such levels.
    The list is endless. Every day hundreds of stories are invented,
    distorted, or magnified.  Hundreds of reporters and researchers are
    dedicated to searching out some alleged crime or evil in Israel,
    magnifying the tiniest incident into an international headlined story.
    Yet this same army of scribblers and talkers can’t seem to discover the
    radicalism of the Muslim Brotherhood or the intransigence of the
    Palestinian Authority.
    I wish this was a exaggeration and if someone had written such things
    10 or 20 years ago I would have ridiculed it as such. But times have
    changed indeed. The near-monopoly in the mass media and in academia for a
    narrow range of opinion (in the “age of diversity”!); the dominance of
    ideology over professional ethics (in which the New York Times,
    for example, can run op-eds 90 percent of which are anti-Israel with no
    shame); and the failure of most Jewish organizations (the
    Anti-Defamation League has not yet discovered that left-wing
    antisemitism exists and actually tries to intimidate people from
    criticizing Obama!); along with other factors have created a bizarre
    atmosphere of conformity or else.

    But it is interesting that in a month where Powerline blog can publish this article, detailing the increasing attacks on Christians of various sorts in the Middle East, often with fatal effects, everybody apparently being happy with such events occurring, but gets het up over the incident DPF describes.  Storm, meet teacup.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  138. Aredhel777 (292 comments) says:

    You guys are so incredibly stupid. How much sense do you need to realise that Iran with nuclear weapons is a bad idea? Of course they don’t want nuclear stuff for peaceful purposes you morons. There’s no arguing with wilfully blind lefties who think that anything non-Western is peaceful and tolerant and wonderful and that anything bad Muslims do (like blowing themselves up in the London underground) is the deserved result of evil Western imperialism. It’s all the West’s fault. The only consolation I take from this is that if you hate the West so much it must still have things worth dying for.

    The only intelligent person in here is Fletch, who has heard of Melanie Phillips which increases my estimation of him even further.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote