Religious fanaticism
December 30th, 2011 at 9:00 am by David FarrarSadly all religions have fanatics. Of course the proportion of a religion who are fanatics is not the same in each religion, but here’s an example of some in Israel:
A shy 8-year-old schoolgirl has unwittingly found herself on the front line of Israel’s latest religious war.
Naama Margolese is a ponytailed, bespectacled second-grader who is afraid of walking to her religious Jewish girls school for fear of ultra-Orthodox extremists who have spat on her and called her a whore for dressing “immodestly.”
Anyone who calls an eight year old girl a whore should be ashamed of themselves, because their God most definitely will be.
The girls school that Naama attends in the city of Beit Shemesh, to the west of Jerusalem, is on the border between an ultra-Orthodox neighbourhood and a community of modern Orthodox Jewish residents, many of them American immigrants.
The ultra-Orthodox consider the school, which moved to its present site at the beginning of the school year, an encroachment on their territory. Dozens of black-hatted men jeer and physically accost the girls almost daily, claiming their very presence is a provocation.
No, firing guns is a provocation. Yelling whore at eight year olds is provocation. Going to school is not.
The televised images of Naama sobbing as she walked to school shocked many Israelis, elicited statements of outrage from the country’s leadership, sparked a Facebook page with nearly 10,000 followers dedicated to “protecting little Naama” and a demonstration was held in her honour. As the case has attracted attention, extremists have heckled and thrown eggs and rocks at journalists descending on town.
“Who’s afraid of an 8-year-old student?” said Sunday’s main headline in the leading Yediot Ahronot daily.
Beit Shemesh’s growing ultra-Orthodox population has erected street signs calling for the separation of sexes on the pavements, dispatched “modesty patrols” to enforce a chaste female appearance and hurled stones at offenders and outsiders.
Great to read of the response from most normal Israelis. The fanatics sound like they would be happy living with the Taliban.
Naama’s case has been especially shocking because of her young age and because she attends a religious school and dresses with long sleeves and a skirt. Extremists, however, consider even that outfit, standard in mainstream Jewish religious schools, to be immodest.
Maybe a hajib?
Protesters held signs reading, “Free Israel from religious coercion,” and “Stop Israel from becoming Iran.”
The abuse and segregation of women in Israel in ultra-Orthodox areas is nothing new, and critics accuse the government of turning a blind eye.
The ultra-Orthodox are perennial king-makers in Israeli coalition politics – two such parties serve as key members of the ruling coalition. They receive generous government subsidies, and police have traditionally been reluctant to enter their communities.
Worth remembering this story, when our own extremists advocate getting rid of a threshold for MMP, so we would end up like Israel (which has been increasing their threshold).
December 30th, 2011 at 9:13 am
Another ultra-Orthodox example:
“An ultra-Orthodox Jewish man was arrested in Jerusalem yesterday for allegedly calling a 19-year-old female soldier a slut when she refused to move to the back of a public bus.”
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10775813
What has Israel become when even women soldiers get dissed (and by someone who probably refuses to serve)?
Perhaps if ultra-Orthodox extremists hate women so much, hopefully they won’t have sex with them?
Or are women their sexual play things?
If the former then in time ultra-Orthodox extremists will hopefully die out?
If the latter, then God help Israel – and their support in the international community might dwindle a bit further?
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 9:15 am
They certainly seem to be bosom buddies with the Taliban, though they I am sure would be shocked at such a comparison.
Interesting about the threshold thing. I would have thought that the solution was easy. If other major mainstream parties all considered them tainted, and refused to work with them, then how could they be effective?
Sure, they could block almost anything the minority government wanted to do by voting against it as would the opposition parties, but then the population would see what a destructive force they are and surely they would die out?
The threshold would have to be very high in Israel as the ultra orthodox make up about 8% of the vote. Take that to extremes, and make the threshold 25% so you end up with only 2 parties again. Wouldn’t work. In fact having a significant block like that might make the main parties work together a bit more…
Either that or you end up banning undesirables. But who gets to decide who is undesirable…?
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 9:33 am
Let’s hope that even as we read about these ultra orthodox in Israel they are not reading about the depravity of NZ, where tourists cannot even leave their 5 year old child in a caravan before a young sexual molester/deviant attacks them. Imagine the hand-wringing justifications for their bad behaviour we are providing them.
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 9:37 am
As I have said for years, the most destructive and hateful force on the planet is intolerance.
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 9:43 am
ZT who cares what they think smart arse. Do you support them?
PS – Big difference, they are open with their hostility towards women and act as a group. The thug in Turangi was acting on his own & probably high on drugs and alcohol (no excuse but different situation).
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 9:49 am
The treatment of the little girl is a sad but not unexpected action from religious fundamentalists in the Middle East. No matter whether they are Jewish, Muslim or Christian the patriarchs of this area have a tradition of treating their women like shit. It is their barbaric culture which has been woven into their half baked religious creeds.
Only where Christians & Jews have left their middle eastern homelands & enforced the partition between church & state has the lot of women improved. For the descendants of the unfortunates left behind it is as if time hasn’t moved for over 1400 years.
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 10:09 am
oh word nasska…
…unlike the virtuous western christians going back to the crusades, then onto the spanish inquisition, the pilgrim witchhunts in early american churches and their support of slavery, leading to the oh so pious and racistly polygamous paedophilic mormons and what the hell, we’ll throw a few tinpot messiahs like Jim Jones in there for laughs too eh…
barbaric culture and half baked religious creeds treating women like shit much ?
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 10:10 am
travellerev’s friends, Ahmadinejad supporters.
Vote:Anti Israel, religious nutbars.
Most of them refuse to serve in the army and are praying for the destruction of Israel.
They believe that Jews are forbidden to have their own state until the coming of the Messiah.
A large proportion of them however doesn’t have a problem living of state welfare.
Despised by most Israelis as leeches.
December 30th, 2011 at 10:10 am
This is the “holier than thou” attitude which pisses everyone off about religion. It doesn’t matter what beliefs you profess, including atheism, if you think you are superior and impose your condescending views on others you are a complete schmuck. You do yourself, your family, your nation, your religion a complete dis-service, and engender hatred.
Religious observances should be considered “rules for members” only and not imposed on others against their free will. In my reading of the Bible, this is exactly what Jesus would have wanted – everyone he encountered was given a free will choice. “Do unto others” was the golden rule. “Love God and love others as yourself” was his summary of the 10 commandments. In a world of multiple religions and races, and religious and nationalistic fanatics it was simple genius. Still is today.
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 10:11 am
Perhaps if ultra-Orthodox extremists hate women so much, hopefully they won’t have sex with them?
Or are women their sexual play things?
This Jewish porn might provide some insight:
Vote:
December 30th, 2011 at 10:14 am
And the mass murder of the unborn, so important to the secular, is not even seen for what it is, an atrocity and a crime against humanity
Oh the denseness of the enlightened
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 10:15 am
I posted his a few days ago, but will say it again, fundamentalism is wrong, no matter what version of the ‘holy book’ it is.
http://news.sky.com/home/world-news/article/16132608
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 10:17 am
And the mass murder of the unborn, so important to the secular, is not even seen for what it is, an atrocity and a crime against humanity
not one for sterilising the poor and ignorant then ?
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 10:21 am
fundamentalism is wrong, no matter what version of the ‘holy book’ it is
Yea… and “fundamentalism” is *such* a precisely defined term, which isn’t in any way used as an insult or way to shut down people opposed to those using it.
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 10:22 am
Heck Israel was refounded by Zionist religious nutbars. Why would you want to disassociate yourself from their Zealotry if you support the wacky notion of a ‘promised land’?
Basically the problem is the Abrahamic religions themselves, all of which schismed and started quarreling. Silly really.
On the other hand, a naturist would see the rest of society as a bunch of religious nutbars. Other than for warmth, why wear clothes?
It’s all relative really.
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 10:30 am
pollywog
…”barbaric culture and half baked religious creeds treating women like shit much ?”……
You’ll get no argument from me on this score. Religion is the natural result of humans being unable to understand the concepts of infinity & eternity. Religion is invented to provide answers & these harmless soulsoothers are then taken over by nutjobs seeking power over their fellow citizens.
Religion like politics is the domain of control freaks.
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 10:30 am
Religious observances should be considered “rules for members” only and not imposed on others against their free will. In my reading of the Bible, this is exactly what Jesus would have wanted – everyone he encountered was given a free will choice.
You are free to accept or reject Christ. But Jesus never said that rejecting him will have no consequences – indeed the exact opposite, rejecting Christ will have the most serious consequences imaginable.
If the point being made here is that such serious consequences lead people to say and do stupid things, I agree.
Stupidity and losing perspective are part of the human condition. In a sense, fundamentalists of all stripes (and I include people who think that the New Atheists are intellectual giants in that) show us exactly why humanity needs a Savior.
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 10:31 am
If you familiarised yourself with the Talmud, which allows Rabbis to have sex with 3 year old girls and kill Goyim (that’s us non-Jews — it means “cattle”) you would perhaps be less shocked at this behaviour.
To try and spin this as a story about how moderate Israelis are is just odd — around 90 percent of them supported “Operation Cast Lead” which involved dropping white phosphorous on civilians.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=13956
“Besides vast destruction and mass population displacement, 313 children were killed among the 1414 who died over a 23-day period. Of the 5300 injured (many seriously), 1606 were children. In all cases, the vast majority were noncombatants.”
You say the orthodox Jews are like the Taliban which is true, but what you fail to note is how similar Zionists are to Nazis.
Before you start squealing “Anti-Semitism!” read a bit of Jewish saxaphonist and former IDF soldier Gilad Atzmon’s writing on the mess that is Zionism.
http://www.gilad.co.uk/
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 10:35 am
@Niggly
ZT who cares what they think smart arse. Do you support them?
You care, or you wouldn’t be commenting on this thread.
Vote:No, I don’t support such behaviour.
December 30th, 2011 at 10:38 am
…”barbaric culture and half baked religious creeds treating women like shit much ?”……
So is your theory that the Turangi Terror is a fundamental orthodox Jew then?
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 10:46 am
Martin, not exactly unbiased links there. Yes, bad shit happens in the Middle East. Israel remains the only democracy in the middle east, and has by far the best human rights record. They do a bunch of stuff that I don’t agree with, and I’d rather they handled things differently. But until I have a solution to the “Israel problem” that doesn’t involve the ending of Israel, then I find it hard to insist that they should do things differently. Remember that they still have rockets fired into Israel pretty much every day – I’m pretty sure if a neighbouring country was firing rockets into NZ we’d do something about it (at least, I hope we would).
DPF – no particular need to link this to NZ politics, particularly through such a tenuous link. This is a story about intolerance.
Fundamentally, countries shouldn’t have laws that deal with religion. These folks shouldn’t be getting special treatment with regard to armed service, nor with regard to welfare. And they definitely shouldn’t be able to project their views onto people who aren’t of their particular faith.
I always find it vaguely amusing how much muslims and jews have in common – the religions are so close to each other, particularly in the more fundamentalist flavours. Kind of like the sunnis and the shias at war with each other over some minor interpretation questions – the closer they are together, the harder they fight it seems.
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 10:47 am
…”So is your theory that the Turangi Terror is a fundamental orthodox Jew then?”…..
There’s not a lot of information to base an opinion on released so far but on balance I consider it unlikely.
A poor upbringing where women are treated like second class citizens such as experienced by the families of ethnic gangs would probably provide the same twisted background.
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 10:48 am
@martin
Why don’t you crawl back under your stone?
Vote:What are you going to quote next, The Elders of Zion?
December 30th, 2011 at 10:49 am
What is a “religious fanatic” but someone who takes their religion seriously and doesn’t simply ignore all the bits which our modern humanitarianism tells us are so vile.
Contrast those with the “religious hypocrites” (i.e. the other 99%) who claim to take their morality from the Bible or Koran but in fact are so selective that it is simply an exercise in justifying their existnig prejudices.
Obviously the religious hypocrites are vastly more preferable, but hypocrites they are nonetheless.
So the first question is whether the actions of these “fanatics” is in accordance with scripture. If it is, then it’s not clear that others calling themselves Jews or Christians can but agree with them.
Maybe the answer is in here:
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/int/long.html
or here
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/fv/long.html
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 10:51 am
I agree that the little girl is treated very badly and should not be, but it’s interesting that DPF posts this and nothing about the many attacks on Christians over Christmas by Muslim radicals. One only has to check out jihadwatch.org for stories about daily happenings that are much worse than this.
This is from the New York Times –
http://nyti.ms/uO0ErN
Not to mention the Christmas Day church bombings in Nigeria –
https://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/26/world/africa/explosion-rips-through-catholic-church-in-nigeria.html?_r=1
So, tell me which is worse – a little girl being hassled on her way to school, or teen girls being raped as the spoils of war, or buried up to their heads in sand and stoned if they don’t marry?
I’m not saying either are right, but why concentrate on the Jewish girl with stories on Kiwiblog and ignore far worse extremists attacking, killing, burning, and raping those in Christian communities?
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 10:51 am
So is your theory that the Turangi Terror is a fundamental orthodox Jew then?
More likely a half baked christian of some description who hasn’t quite shaken off the heathen savagery of pagan Pasifika, inclusive of Maori, beliefs.
Sounds like the kid could do with a healthy does of demon water flushing to get rid of his obvious maketu. Maybe even extend it to the wider whanau if they’re possessed of said curse also.
…can’t be too careful where theres demons concerned eh ?
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 10:55 am
If you are confronted by such a situation , ignore it. There are zealots of all religious ,political persuasions who deem it their role in society to enforce antiquated laws and are usually tiresome bores or opinionated oaf’s. Tell them to get a life and ignore them as best you can but most certainly don’t back down or change your plans for the day.
Vote:Personally I am loathe to use foul language but on occassion I know a few abusive phrases that work well.
December 30th, 2011 at 10:58 am
Then there is the case of a Muslim man in Texas who murdered his family on Christmas morning. His daughter was dating non-Muslim boys.
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 11:05 am
Fletch: yes, nutjobs come in all shapes and sizes. What is your point? The story that DPF posted is interesting because we generally consider Israel to be first world (unlike Somalia), and generally consider the Jewish religion to be a bit more tolerant. No news that Muslims get up to these things. You seem to think this is some sort of conspiracy – if anything in my experience DPF defends a bit more of the goings on in Israel than I would.
On a sidebar, interesting that Israel is the only country in the middle east where Muslims get to vote. Or was until recently – I guess I’ll hold back judgement on some of the newly minted democracies. What would make me very happy is if some of those countries were so democratic that they made Israel look intolerant, and that put pressure on them to improve. But not holding my breath.
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 11:09 am
Then there is the case of a Muslim man in Texas who murdered his family on Christmas morning. His daughter was dating non-Muslim boys.
I see that as more an example of intergenerational war. Boomers killing of the X’ers.
par for the course with old fucks sending the youngers off to war, screwing the environment for future generations and selling off the kid’s inheritance like state assets and consigning them to a life of poverty…child abuse much ?
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 11:10 am
“…who deem it their role in society to enforce antiquated laws”
The entire contents of the Bible and the Koran falls into this catagory.
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 11:12 am
@CS
“Heck Israel was refounded by Zionist religious nutbars.”
No it wasn’t Chris. Early Zionists were mainly socialists and liberals.
Vote:Read up on Herzl and Weizmann, they put great emphasis on communalism, egalitarianism and socialism.
December 30th, 2011 at 11:21 am
As the title of Hitchen’s book says: “God is not great“.
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 11:24 am
“…who deem it their role in society to enforce antiquated laws”
The entire contents of the Bible and the Koran falls into this catagory.[sic]
Wat, that is quite an ignorant thing to say. If you’d bother to do investigate, you’ll see that most (antiquated?) democratic law is Judeo/Christian and based on the Bible.
The Koran, on the other hand, is completely different to the Bible in what it teaches.
For example, the Koran teaches –
“The sacred month and the sacred precincts are under the safeguard of reprisals: whoever offereth violence to you, offer ye the like violence to him, and fear God, and know that God is with those who fear Him.” (Sura 2:190).
And in the Bible, Jesus denounced the old “eye for an eye” teachings, and said –
“But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.” (Matthew 5:39).
Jesus also said that those who live by the sword shall die by the sword, whereas Mohammed was a warrior who killed many people and encouraged his followers to kill likewise unbelievers.
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 11:24 am
Zen Tiger says:- “So is your theory that the Turangi Terror is a fundamental orthodox Jew then?”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 11:26 am
As the title of Hitchen’s book says: “God is not great“.
Hitchens, now that he id dead, knows different….
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 11:26 am
Never miss an opportunity to display your hatred Fletch, the extremists in Beit Shemesh would be proud of you.
Meanwhile…..Israeli reporter Shai Gal visits Beit Shemesh and Orthodox news site Vos Iz Neias has photos and video of the Police clashing with Charedim in Beit Shemesh.
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 11:32 am
“Heck Israel was refounded by Zionist religious nutbars.”
No it wasn’t Chris. Early Zionists were mainly socialists and liberals.
gotta love what the early european colonial christian utopianists turned NZ into eh ?
how’s that tame and civilised native population thing working out for you ?
yeah nah…me neither
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 11:35 am
cha, what hatred?
Vote:Denouncing killers and rapists? How is that ‘hatred’?
I’m just trying to put things in perspective. Whatever one thinks of Israel, they are still the only democracy in the Middle East where 1 million Muslims live and have the freedom they have nowhere else.
December 30th, 2011 at 11:38 am
“that is quite an ignorant thing to say.”
It was a simple statement of fact.
And no, most democratic laws are not based on the Bible. Follow those two links I provided. Do you see many of those cruel and violent “moral teachings” enacted in our laws? No, you don’t. And I don’t see any Christians volunteering to subject themselves to such unjust barbarities either.
“…and in the Bible, Jesus denounced the old “eye for an eye” teachings”
So Yahweh flatly contradicts himself. Earlier he teaches an eye for an eye, then later he teaches the opposite. Does he just toss a coin when he issues his moral teachings? Is it going to revert back tomorrow? You don’t know.
“Jesus also said that those who live by the sword shall die by the sword, whereas Mohammed was a warrior who killed many people and encouraged his followers to kill likewise unbelievers.”
Maybe so, but you’re completely ignoring the genocidal racial slaughter than your deity enacts earlier in the Bible. Which is exactly my point: Christians are so selective that they no more take their moral teachings from the Bible than I do.
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 11:40 am
@Scott – well spotted. I thought the bright neon lights 24 metres high quite subtle, but you still noticed. Now if you could just consider what the comment was in response to…
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 11:44 am
PW, our own
Vote:‘Proto-Aryan’‘pasifikan’ ‘Joseph Arthur De Gobineau’ strikes again.Blah, blah, blah….
December 30th, 2011 at 11:46 am
Ah, the hate-inciting tones of the stout and pacific Pasifikan matron.
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 11:47 am
Maybe so, but you’re completely ignoring the genocidal racial slaughter than your deity enacts earlier in the Bible. Which is exactly my point: Christians are so selective that they no more take their moral teachings from the Bible than I do.
wat, you may describe it as “genocidal racial slaughter”, but is it? Some of the peoples that Moses killed practised child sacrifice and the like.
The moral culture of the Caananites differed dramatically from the moral culture of the Israelites. It is known that the people of Moab sacrificed their babies by placing them into the red hot hands of a heated statue of their god. I’m sure the Caananites thought what they were doing was right and moral.
Who are you to say what is morally right or wrong? We’re talking about war. The US dropped an atomic bomb on Nagasake. Was that wrong of them? Was that “genocidal racial slaughter”? And if not, why not, and how does that differ from the peoples God told Moses to kill in war?
Plus, is God not allowed to destroy what He has created Himself? Isn’t that up to Him?
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 11:52 am
Other_Andy
I take your point. My assumption that the Zionist movement being fundamentally religious was wrong.
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 12:03 pm
OA and manolo…
intergenerational welfare dependancy by institutionalised racism and a eurocentric cultural bias towards Pasifikans = reap what you sow muthafuckas !!!
no hate on my part but plenty of denial on yours.
how about growing a pair and owning that shit ?
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 12:04 pm
“I take your point. My assumption that the Zionist movement being fundamentally religious was wrong.”
Thanks Chris.
That doesn’t mean that ‘Zionist religious nutbars’ are not trying to hijack the movement and Israel itself.
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 12:04 pm
Fletch,
You misunderstand. I am agreeing with you that Christians and Jews should actively support the racially-motivated wars of extinction initiated by the deity in their belief system.
They should advocate the stoning to death of disobedient children.
They shouldadvocate the execution of anyone and everyone who breaks the Sabbath.
They shouldadvocate the execution of active homosexuals.
They shouldadvocate the death by stoning of those who worship other deities.
In short, they should agree with, support and advocate everything in these links (and more):
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/int/long.html
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html
Do you agree with, support and advocate everything in those links?
And, for example, have you religiously kept the Sabbath?
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 12:04 pm
The story is about a man dressed in a Santa suit who killed six members of his own family on Christmas morning then committed suicide. That the man’s wife had left him, his home had been foreclosed upon, his business was failing and he had filed for bankruptcy could be considered as strong motives for committing this massacre.
But no, you’re so blinded by your hatred Fletch that you’ve decided that because all involved were Muslims this tragedy must be ‘an honour killing’.
And I see you’ve parroted hate monger Gelllar so I doubt you’ve got an opinion of your own anyhow.
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 12:14 pm
Zen Tiger
Oh I see. My bad. But as for the neon lights, irony is often lost in text especially when the full context of the exchange isn’t immediately evident. I use the tilde (~) to denote irony and sarcasm. (ie ~I believe in hell~)
Still, I agree with niggly’s response to your ‘judge ye not lest ye be judged’ observation. The alleged Turangi perp probably wasn’t acting according to any ideology. That’s the difference.
On the other hand, I’m not inclined to bash the moderate majority of Orthodox Jews because of a minority of wackos in their ranks. Provided they do no substantial harm.
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 12:24 pm
“intergenerational welfare dependancy by institutionalised racism and a eurocentric cultural bias towards Pasifikans”
Big empty words…
Vote:Meaning ‘I can’t help myself, it’s the [insert favourite racial slur] fault”
And an example of your marxist anti-bourgeois, anti-capitalist, anti-conservative, anti-imperialist, anti-liberal, anti-reactionary, ‘Aryan Rein’ Pacifika utopia where the Pasifikan master race dwells is?
December 30th, 2011 at 12:26 pm
Go and shed sixty kilos first, chubby Pasifika woman.
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 12:41 pm
wat, Stoning was the method of execution used in those days. Yes, it may seem harsh by today’s standards, but that is because you are trying to impose this present day moral system upon that of an ancient culture found in Scripture and then judging Scripture as though it is inferior to our own subjective morality. The verses you quote were written 3,000 years ago in a very different culture and location. I don’t think you’re interested in the history etc. You’re more eager to find anything that can be used as critical of the Bible.
What about our own society and its morals? Now it’s OK to murder children in the womb. Isn’t that a kind of child sacrifice? And yet society turns a blind eye to it.
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 12:55 pm
Big empty words
oh you mean like the treaty ?
And an example of your Pacifika utopia where the Pasifikan master race dwells is?
NZ in 50 years
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 1:09 pm
Fletch
How do you justify the ‘pick & mix’ attitude shown by today’s Christians? When one of us state that the content of the Old Testament is a load of cobblers one of you will jump to defend it. When the absurdities are proven someone will point out that Jesus & his teachings made what is written in the OT redundant.
Leviticus, for example, is full of rubbish about sin & punishment, totally irrelevant to today’s world. This should be obvious to even those who believe in unicorns never mind those who take it upon themselves to spread God’s word & save souls.
Which is it? Either the OT is a load of historical crap which can be safely ignored or a Holy book which must be studied & obeyed to the letter. You debase your stance if you insist on having it both ways.
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 1:16 pm
polywog
…”NZ in 50 years”……
In your dreams. Still, if you want to be here if it happens make sure you sprinkle plenty of bran on your taro.
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 1:20 pm
nasska, as I said above, you are trying to impose today’s morals on an ancient society. Here’s a snippet from The Politically Incorrect Guide to the Bible (I would advise reading the whole thing, if you’re interested
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 1:22 pm
So whats your prediction for Pasifika peoples in NZ, 50 years from now nasska ?
let me guess…some nightmare scenario of violent criminals, mass imprisonments, un educated jobless youth, widespread poverty ?
in other words more of the same, only more…so to avoid that, what do you suggest we do differently ?
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 1:27 pm
Fletch,
It’s completely irrelevant whether stoning seems harsh to us or not, just as it is irrelevant if those punishments were not often used in practise. We’re talking about what should be practised, according to the Bible. And we’re talking about the laws and morals which you and all other Christians should advocate and follow.
“The verses you quote were written 3,000 years ago in a very different culture and location.”
Surely this fact is irrelevent. Or are you saying the Bible teachings are irrelevant and can be ignored?
So, to repeat, a good Christian – i.e. one who derives his morals from the Bible – advocates the following:
- The stoning to death of disobedient children.
- The execution of anyone and everyone who breaks the Sabbath.
- The execution of active homosexuals.
- The death by stoning of those who worship other deities.
And all these besides:
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/int/long.html
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html
If you don’t advocate all those laws then you are clearly not deriving your morals from the Bible, you are just selecting the handful which agree with your a prioris. And of course we can all do that: we can ignore the laws about homosexuality, for example, just as readily as you ignore the ones about the Sabbath, and with just as much justification.
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 1:28 pm
This isn’t actually about religion it’s about appallingly arrogant behaviour purportedly justified by a claim of religious requirement from the very people who act in this way.
So in other words the offenders are claiming they’re doing it because this is what their religion requires. The offenders. Not every Jew says or does this, only the offenders.
So I think we could discount whatever it is the offenders say is their reason, don’t you? Or does anyone with a deep understanding of Judaism think this is justified if so why? Other than that, what’s the point of pretending this is about religion or even that it’s typical religious thinking?
It’s simply arrogant thugery. You see it a lot, shame those people however aren’t ostracised by their own society but instead bizarrely some even admire and approve of them.
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 1:37 pm
Fletch
If I had to paraphrase your “snippet” it would be along the lines of Jesus said to obey the Mosaic Law but at the same time he urged commonsense & humanity. Since you suggested that I read it I would think that you must follow the teachings of the OT otherwise you would have answered directly. Whichever way you look at it the OT is about 4000yrs old & the NT 2000yrs. Society as it was then would be unrecognisable today.
It is not my intention to impose today’s morals on an ancient society. It is also not my intention to impose ancient morals on today’s society which is what Christians try to do.
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 1:39 pm
Other_Andy (997) Says:
December 30th, 2011 at 10:48 am
@martin
Why don’t you crawl back under your stone?
What are you going to quote next, The Elders of Zion?
Did you actually have an argument here old chap? Let’s break down your response . . .
“Why don’t you crawl back under your stone?”
Implication: “You are not human”.
“What are you going to quote next, The Elders of Zion?”
Implication: “Any pointing to Zionism’s moral failings is antisemitism of the worst kind”
Both these are stock standard retorts to anyone who critcises Israel, and they’re just not enough anymore.
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 1:41 pm
We arent the ones demanding that todays morals be what was written in an ancient society.
Which is a problem for anyone who believes in absolute morality.
If morals change with time, then they cannot come from God, who is unchanging and timeless. They must come from something that changes. People.
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 1:44 pm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2011/dec/28/israeis-rally-against-ultra-orthodox-extremists-video
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 1:45 pm
pollywog
…”so to avoid that, what do you suggest we do differently ?”….
If I knew do you think that I wouldn’t tell you? To date we can discount throwing unaccountable dollars at the problem because these get wasted in yap sessions & it would seem that your people don’t want any Pakeha led responses.
I actually hope that any initiatives you take bear fruit otherwise NZ is not going to be a good place to live.
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 1:56 pm
Probably no need for me to comment much here. I am on holiday after all.
Obviously the vast majority of Israelis and Jews oppose the extremists, and find their behaviour repugnant. Even Orthodox Jews feel this is an insult to God. The Prime minister and President have both spoken out against this.
No need for me to mention extremists in other religions who defile themselves by committing mass murder.
Interesting is this Martin Gibson character. Candidate for United Future in East Cost Bays, and a journalist. I’m not really in for a debate today, but here is a statement I have copied previously (paraphrasing here).
“Claiming any criticism of the Israeli Government is Anti Semitic is untrue, and it is vile to say so.
However, as a rule of thumb, you can apply Natan Sharansky’s 3 ‘D’ Test on the argument:
‘Double Standards’
‘Delegitimisation’
‘Demonisation’
If someone’s argument fails this test, then you must ask yourself why they lower themselves to make it”
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 1:57 pm
I actually hope that any initiatives you take bear fruit otherwise NZ is not going to be a good place to live.
so thats one cracka ass in support of a Pasifikan master race lording it over the weakling Eurocentrists in a utopian future NZ then…
cheers…any more ?
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 2:02 pm
pollywog
The Polynesian gene pool will need a flushing & good dose of chlorine before we see your Utopian master race.
Anyway….we’re off topic.
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 2:09 pm
@martin
1. You are trolling. This post is about orthodox Jews not about Gaza.
2. You got your facts wrong and you conveniently leave out others.
3. You are an ignorant shock-jock comparing Zionism with Nazism.
And….
Vote:I am not your ‘old chap’.
Go and post your agitprop on the Standard.
December 30th, 2011 at 2:20 pm
@Scott. Still, I agree with niggly’s response to your ‘judge ye not lest ye be judged’ observation. The alleged Turangi perp probably wasn’t acting according to any ideology. That’s the difference.
I didn’t mean it as a “judge not” observation. I’m all for judging. I just wanted to judge a little more than the current topic. I wanted to consider if people acting without an ideology are somehow better than people who act because of one. The Turangi experience doesn’t convince me a lack of ideology is any better. Or perhaps they are driven by a new form of ideology. A “what ever I want” kind of belief system that works best when it isn’t named. Then other things can be blamed – drugs, alcohol, income inequality, culture…
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 2:23 pm
Gee, nasska, someone finally noticed!
My two cents worth here is to support the earlier query as to why on god’s earth DPF chose to link this situation to our MMP system. It’s a pretty long bow when Israel’s threshold is already 2%, and even at 5% it’s very likely that the Ultras will still be just as powerful.
The choice DPF appears to be offering is between stability (according to the gospel of St DPF, no doubt) or disempowerment – even up to 8% of the voting populace. In the post-colonial world of cuddled dictators, of course, the two went together.
Meanwhile, poor old BIbi, dismayed by the progressive rapprochement between Fatah and Hamas, lashes out with yet more murderous bombing raids on the imprisoned population of Gaza.
I would rate this event as more newsworthy than a few nutters on a bus somewhere in a society full of nutters – nutters who still think that the dispossession of Palestinians has the remotest chance of sticking in the long term.
Dreams are usually free, but in this case those dreams are paid for by dead and oppressed Palestinians.
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 2:23 pm
Dunno about off topic nasska…
Didn’t you know Pasifikans are also descendants of the lost tribe of Israel…the ultimate evolutionary end game of the chosen people of the conquering lion of the tribe of Judah ?
My genepool couldn’t get more flush even if we tried. Like I’m 1/8th german as is, with a healthy dose of irish going back as well.
and then there’s my superkids
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 2:29 pm
Fletch says:- “nasska, as I said above, you are trying to impose today’s morals on an ancient society”
So how do you decide which parts of the bible have lost their relevance? I think this convenient ‘picking and choosing’ is what many secularists find so ludicrous about the selective application of biblical morality. For instance, some men want to have sex with other men. To you and me the idea is distasteful but what actual harm does this do even in the context of ancient society? Surely the act of stoning them is far more harmful?
And I agree with you about abortion. It could be seen as culturally acceptable infanticide. Personally I think that abortion contradicts our modern system of morality but I am in favour of terminating defective fetuses as well as being in favour of voluntary euthanasia.
In the end it comes down to working out the social harm of any given action.
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 2:33 pm
My God demands that you stop following your God or I must kill you! – Yep… that’s a moral code worth following!
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 3:19 pm
As soon as I read the title I knew that there would be a post from Andrei with his usual fundamentalism. Here is a video of people like Andrei practicing their religion:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1wjpg_stonedtodeath_news?start=126#from=embediframe
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 3:35 pm
Right on cue: enter the nutter and defender of terrorism perpetuated by the hands and guns of Hamas.
Bleating because Israel defends (and will always defend) its own sovereign territory against terrorist attacks.
And as long as terrorists continue to lob RPGs and rockets into the sovereign territory of Israel, they can expect Israel to defend itself in kind.
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 3:50 pm
So no provocation at all ever happens Elaycee? 100% of the time the only thing poor Israel does is defend herself against unjustified attack?
Cognitive dissonance abounds on Israel particularly in conservatives. I wonder why?
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 4:05 pm
Provocation, reid would be the speech by Iran’s Mahmoud Ahmadinejad that he will wipe Israel off the face of the earth. If provocation was a defence, Israel would be ‘entitled’ to drop one of its own on Tehran first. But Israel hasn’t responded…. yet. Indeed, the biggest noises about this provocative speech have come from Nato. Not a lot from the UN… Funny that.
But Hamas is lobbing ordnance into the sovereign territory of Israel. THATs provocation. And the response is entirely predictable.
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 4:06 pm
@reid
“So no provocation at all ever happens Elaycee?”
You are absolutely right Reid. They are provoked all the time.
Vote:They are provoked by the fact that Israel exists and above all by the fact that it is full of Jews.
No wonder they are in a perpetual catatonic state.
December 30th, 2011 at 4:13 pm
sorry just got here – my question is: What the F**k do these people have with the MMP debate in New Zealand?
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 4:15 pm
Hi reid,
What provocation? Clayton Weatherston used that as his defence. His crimes are as repugnant as Hamas. In fact Hamas’ and Islamic Jihad are far worse, as they repeat them over and over again.
You posted some articles yesterday. Apparently attacks on Jews anywhere in the world are justified due to the undescribed “crimes” of Israel. And according to your link, attacks on Jews are therefore NOT anti-semitic.
The only case of Cognitive Dissonance appears to be your own….
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 4:17 pm
Hey pollywog.
so thats one cracka ass in support of a Pasifikan master race lording it over the weakling Eurocentrists
Can you name one country that is run by niggers and is doing well please?
[DPF: 50 demerits]
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 4:17 pm
Oh you think most of the world is wrong when we say Israel acts like a bellicose bully Tim?
Of course you do.
The only people who seem to think this are generally conservatives (and also democrats, in the states only), from the tight five: Canada, US, UK, Aus, US.
Most others think she’s a bully.
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 4:22 pm
Provocation, reid would be the speech by Iran’s Mahmoud Ahmadinejad that he will wipe Israel off the face of the earth.
Elaycee you’re aware of the significant disputes over that comment and what it meant in terms of actually said vs reported to have said aren’t you.
Otherwise one would be ignorant, wouldn’t one.
Just in general terms extrapolating from your comment, what are your thoughts on the terrible western MSM pro-Israel bias, or don’t you even know it exists so you never see it?
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 4:24 pm
There isn’t really any dispute over what Ahmadinanutjob said. There are certainly left wing idiots who have been spreading misinformation about his statament however.
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 4:25 pm
No dispute on these quotes from Ahmadinejad though:
· “Anybody who recognizes Israel will burn in the fire of the Islamic nation’s fury.”
Vote:· “Remove Israel before it is too late and save yourself from the fury of regional nations.”
· “The skirmishes in the occupied land are part of a war of destiny. The outcome of hundreds of years of war will be defined in Palestinian land. As the Imam said, Israel must be wiped off the map.”
· “If the West does not support Israel, this regime will be toppled. As it has lost its raison d’ tre, Israel will be annihilated.”
· “Israel is a tyrannical regime that will one day will be destroyed.”
· “Israel is a rotten, dried tree that will be annihilated in one storm.”
December 30th, 2011 at 4:54 pm
There are certainly left wing idiots who have been spreading misinformation about his statament however.
Whereas the MSM can be trusted all the time not to do that in anyway right? This is not a left-right issue, it should not be confused as such.
No dispute on these quotes from Ahmadinejad though:
Tim perhaps you can answer this for me because no-one has ever been able to. Why isn’t Iran allowed to have the bomb? Why is it automatically assumed that Iran if she had it would use it? Why aren’t Israel’s 350+ nukes taken into account as a deterrent factor whenever Iran getting a nuke is discussed by the Western MSM?
Why doesn’t MAD apply here, when it applies everywhere else in the world, including in NK?
An answer to that would be really good cause as I say, I’ve asked before and on-one has said anything.
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 4:57 pm
immigant
Can you name one country that is run by niggers and is doing well please?
Could you tone it down a bit immigant, no need to imitate the resident race baiter.
Vote:And….
Would Botswana do?
December 30th, 2011 at 5:03 pm
Typo: It’s Hijab not Hajib – or if you are not comfortable quoting terms in somebody elses language then just call it a headcovering or veil.
I agree that 5% is probably not a bad threshold – it means that parliament is likely to be made up off a few meaningful sized blocks.
Drop to about 3% and you get the likes of Christian Heritage and Conservative Party, drop to 1% and you’d get folks like Destiny Church and Family First – but on the upside you’d also get Aotearoa Legalise Cannabis and the Bill and Ben Party!
I can more or less live with Winston, most of the policy he has delivered has been handouts to the elderly, which while expensive and probably unnecesary are not that harmful. I wouldn’t like a scenario where a close election delivers Bishop Brian Tamaki the balance of power – although given his reputation his first policy demand would probably be tax code changes for selected churches!
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 5:04 pm
reid:Whereas the MSM can be trusted all the time not to do that in anyway right? This is not a left-right issue, it should not be confused as such.
It seems to be parts of the left/far left that is spreading this misinformation about Ahmadinanutjob. It was after the Iranian News agency IRNA itself that first offered up an english translation of what Ahmadinanutjob said. The BBC picked up the story and when claims started surfacing that his statement had been mistranslated the BBC asked its Farsi unit to look into the matter and they concluded that the translation was the best one could do into english and that it was essentially correct.
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 5:13 pm
chiz try not to get fixated on a minor detail. There’s plenty of material on what that quote was and meant and where it came from and that’s not really the point.
It’s a wider thing. Does Israel play a straight bat or not and if not, does the western MSM actively collude in covering or not covering certain things which would be good to know and which it would cover if it wasn’t colluding?
It’s not about one particular comment.
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 5:14 pm
Bill and Ben is an upside? You don’t read much news then?
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 5:19 pm
Blimey, I’d feel provoked if someone set up their nation in my back garden. I’d be pissed off with the people who let them do it too. But they’re there now, so the best we can hope for is an outbreak of sanity.
Not sure what Armoured-Dinner-Jacket has got to do with disproportionate responses to a few fireworks being lobed into the desert. Comes from the same school of thought that conflated Iraq with 9/11.
The 30 or so Israelis killed by rockets in the last decade is insignificant compared to the wider conflict. The score?
6,537 Palestinians and 1,092 Israelis dead.
http://www.ifamericaknew.org/stats/deaths.html
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 5:20 pm
Sorry reid. There are people, including Luc and others here, who don’t know this stuff and who do deny what he said, and I wasn’t sure if you were one of them or not
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 5:32 pm
So, you think I’m as bad as someone who spits at young children. Umm, fuck you.
Who was it who wrote the other day:
Yet people who disagree with you on the threshold are “extremists”?
And why wouldn’t we end up like Finland or the Netherlands, which also have no threshold? Perhaps Israel, which has always had a threshold, should change it to zero, so that they end up like Finland or the Netherlands, having a 1, then 1.5 then 2% threshold has been a problem… etc.
You extremists make me sick etc.
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 5:34 pm
@Zentiger
Vote:Another good reason to have a threshold high enough to keep Bill and Ben and Christian Heritage out of parliament! If we’d fixed the stupid electorate seat exemption we could have got rid of the justice spokesperson who stole the identity of a dead baby. It’s not a complete safety net though – Winston has brought some interesting folks into parliament with him this time:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10771554
December 30th, 2011 at 6:02 pm
chiz
I’m perfectly aware about all the infantile demonisation of a transient leader who, to us, offers inflammatory rhetoric, but, in reality, is doing what all politicians do and playing to his home crowd. Have you ever looked at the rants of Israel’s current thuggish FM?
And of course, western media and governments encourage the most extremist interpretations, just as one T Blair would terrorise his own people with threats of total destruction of the UK in only 40mins via non-existent WMDs
Blah, blah, blah.
I’m interested in freeing Palestinians from belligerent occupation. Iran is a sideshow.
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 6:05 pm
Iran is a sideshow.
Only if you think WWIII is a side-show Luc.
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 6:29 pm
Hi Reid … I started answering your 4.54pm, but have been called away by the family. I’ll be back online in a few days, so ask me again on GD and I’ll answer…
Cheers
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 6:31 pm
reid
The context of that statement is in regard to the Question of Palestine. So please don’t project.
However, indulge me do tell what your WWlll scenario entails.
We’ve subscribed to Soho and have developed quite a fondness for fantasies.
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 6:45 pm
@reid
Why isn’t Iran allowed to have the bomb? Why doesn’t MAD apply here, when it applies everywhere else in the world, including in NK?
Mutual Assured Destruction, or mutually assured destruction (MAD), is a doctrine of military strategy and national security policy in which a full-scale use of high-yield weapons of mass destruction by two opposing sides would effectively result in the complete, utter and irrevocable annihilation of both the attacker and the defender
This implies that both countries would see the death of their citizens and destruction of their own country as something negative. So would Iran be deterred by the knowledge that they will be destroyed by Israel if they destroy Israel?
Ever heard of the 12th Imam, the Hidden Imam or the Mahdi? Ahmadinejad beliefs in the coming of this Madhi, a religious messianism that, some suspect, is giving the Iranian leader a dangerous sense of divine mission. Ahmadinejad is devoted to the Hidden Imam, the Messiah-like figure of Shia Islam, and the president believes that his government must prepare the country for his return.
Read more here….
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iran/1507818/Divine-mission-driving-Irans-new-leader.html
This apocalyptic worldview, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad’s statements that Israel should be wiped off the map and his belief that dying for Islam is an honour and something to rejoice in might makes many people uneasy.
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 6:56 pm
“Why isn’t Iran allowed to have the bomb?”
Jesus fucking christ.
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 6:59 pm
For sane commentary, reid, try this:
http://www.juancole.com/2011/12/iranian-navy-menaces-oil-exports-from-hormuz.html
Extract:
“Israel, the US and some European states maintain that Iran has a secret nuclear weapons program, but there is no really good evidence for any such thing if by that you mean a rush to construct an actual warhead. The real problem for Israel and its allies is that Iran’s civilian enrichment program is potentially dual-use. If Iran can enrich uranium to 3.5 percent for nuclear reactor fuel, it could in theory use its centrifuges to enrich to 95 percent for a bomb. Israel and the US don’t want Iran even to have the possibility of making a bomb if Tehran someday chooses to, since that would knock Israel down a peg on the Middle East pecking order.”
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 7:35 pm
Hell, give everyone the bomb. Ironically the Mexican Standoff resultant of the nuclear arms race appears to be our species’ salvation…. so far.
Iran isn’t going to opt for self destruction anymore than anyone else, but the longer we keep them a pariah state, the more likely they are to act subversively.
Ron Paul is right. Remove sanctions now.
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 7:37 pm
Why would Iran knowing it would get obliterated from the planet denotate a nuke in Israel? Why?
To what advantage would that be knowing as I said above, MAD ensues.
None of you have addressed that simple question yet pending Tim’s response which I’m sure will be formidable but none of the rest of you Israel-firsters have. Yet. So why don’t you.
Please don’t point to speeches by individuals or general innuendo about “mad mullahs” point to policies, point to documents, any evidence which backs up your proposition which as I understand it correct me where I’m wrong, is that Iran is ruled by the Ayatolla alone and that he and other mullahs alone including Mr. Dinner Jacket control every single decision everywhere.
Point me to that evidence that Iran as a country today actually operates that way for that is the way it would have to operate before one could believe your scenario that Iran will automatically detonate, isn’t it.
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 8:00 pm
Tim’s off on a Hasbara refresher course. He’ll be well primed. Look forward a wonderful example of the Monckton method: start with a lie and build on that with stunning verbosity.
Never mind the reality, feel the deception.
Anyway, time to start on my holiday reading with a little light Noam Chomsky (New World of Indigenous Resistance) and I just downloaded to my Kindle some Ilan Pappe as well (The Forgotten Palestinians – A History of the Palestinians in Israel).
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 8:00 pm
However, indulge me do tell what your WWlll scenario entails.
This guy’s prediction Luc, sorry, had not read your above before my 7:37
http://www.threeworldwars.com/albert-pike.htm
I just downloaded to my Kindle some Ilan Pappe as well (The Forgotten Palestinians – A History of the Palestinians in Israel).
I suggest a bit of Adam Hall as well Luc.
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 8:03 pm
Things are going from bad to worse in Beit Shemesh with hundreds of Haredim clashing with police and a Haredi man indicted for sexually harassing a female soldier on a bus.
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 8:24 pm
Adam Hall? The NHL player? I admit the NHL is great to watch, but what that’s got do with MMP?
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 8:27 pm
cha
Haredim throwing stones and none were shot?
How interesting.
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 8:28 pm
Adam Hall Quiller Amazon – best espionage you’ve ever read
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 8:53 pm
Haredim throwing stones and none were shot?
How interesting.
And when that happens they can always protest the ‘Palestinian’ way. Put women and children in the front and young men in their late teens and early 20s, armed with rocks, sling shots, Molotov cocktails in the back.
Vote:And of course, don’t forget to invite the media in case one of those Zionist pigs tries to defend himself.
Works like a treat.
December 30th, 2011 at 9:37 pm
There you go again, Andy. Those Zionist pigs – your words, not mine: I would have said IDF soldiers – you talk about are not defending themselves. They are occupiers, and generally engaged in suppressing demonstrations against said occupation. Resistance to occupation is legal, within certain constraints, and most certainly peaceful demonstrations are legal resistance.
I’m sorry, but hard as I may try, I can’t dredge up sympathy for your Zionist pigs armed with the best weapons the US can supply, for free and no strings other than looking after Uncle Sam’s interests.
Viva la resistance!
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 9:41 pm
@ reid 6:00pm
Cheers, thanks for the context. I thought the WWlll thing was a bit strange for you!
Vote:December 30th, 2011 at 9:49 pm
Noam Chomsky and Ilan Pappe
Communist and anarchist.
Vote:Can I also recommend Richard Harwood, Saul Alinsky, Richard Cloward and of course Pierre Guillaume which ties in nicely with Chomsky’s ideas.
Extreme left meets extreme right.
Hitler meet stalin.
A means can be justified only by its end. But the end in its turn needs to be justified.
December 30th, 2011 at 9:55 pm
They are occupiers..
Occupying what?
…. looking after Uncle Sam’s interests.
And those interests are?
Vote:December 31st, 2011 at 12:06 am
Occupying what?
The Tomb of Zoltar, Andy.
And those interests are?
According to NBC it’s unleashing the flames of hell upon humanity just because they can. It would be good if you could stop them Andy but if not hey, we all understand. Thanks for giving it a go anyway.
Vote:December 31st, 2011 at 12:10 am
P.S. Apologies for the off topic.
Vote:December 31st, 2011 at 12:29 am
As far as what Iran want, Ahmadinajad is a “twelver”. He believes in the coming of the Twelfth Imam, or the Mahdi. He believes that starting a war will hasten the arrival of the Mahdi. In reality, the Mahdi could be the antichrist.
From the Wall Street Journal –
Here is a video of Ahmadinejad giving a speech at the UN saying he prays Allah would “hasten the arrival” of the Imam.
So, who is the Twelfth Imam supposed to be?
MORE – http://flashtrafficblog.wordpress.com/2010/10/21/qa-10-questions-on-the-twelfth-imam-and-shia-islamic-end-times-theology/
Vote:December 31st, 2011 at 1:21 am
The entire rant about religious fanatics spitting on eight year old school girls is summed up in the final sentence:
“Worth remembering this story, when our own extremists advocate getting rid of a threshold for MMP, so we would end up like Israel (which has been increasing their threshold).”
Apparently, increasing democratic representation is a gateway to religious fundamentalism. Weird, even for someone from the far right end of the political spectrum. Although it is not difficult to see where this kind of reactionary rhetoric finds purchase when reading some of the comments posted here.
Israel, regardless of its system of proportional representation, will be the master of its own demise. Without massive economic and military support from the US, Israel will cease to exist in its current state. Only an idiot would believe the US backs Israel because they are fond of Jews or they fear the power of AIPAC. The US (with the cooperation of Western Europe and Middle Eastern henchmen ) is building up its military resources in and around this planet’s most valuable energy reserves for its own selfish reasons, Israel is little more than an appendage of the US military establishment’s threat to the region – another stick with which to beat the Arabs (or Persians in the case of Iran.)
As a number of commentators have pointed out, in the face of the threat posed to the region by decades of military aggression by the likes of the US and Israel, Iran would be mad it were not attempting to develop a nuclear deterrent.
Once Israel’s strategic significance ceases to be of consequence to the US, economic and military support will drop off precipitously, similarly, the ‘threat’ to western society that is Iranian religious fundamentalism will diminish as the last of the region’s energy reserves are hoovered up.
Vote:December 31st, 2011 at 3:07 am
Fletch
You do understand that Nejad doesn’t actually call the shots in Iran, don’t you?
Ah well, maybe not.
Anyway, his second term ends soon so then who will be your new favorite bogeyman?
Andy
Perhaps it’s getting late for you, but coherence is never your strong suit, anyway. Hitler and Stalin were totalitarians, end of story. I don’t care if Chomsky and Pappe are Buddhist – it’s facts that count.
Who is occupied?
The Occupied Palestinian Territories, silly.
Uncle Sam’s interests? Black gold, Texas tea…
Vote:December 31st, 2011 at 7:43 am
To that loon who was advocating the mass murder of gay people; do not be surprised (or a cry baby) if the task turns out not to be as easy as it looks as gay people defend themselves and wouldbe hate crime committers find themselves disarmed (and given a good kicking for their trouble).
I agree with DPF about the MMP threshold; I have always advocated (even 20 years ago during the referendum debates) a threshold of 10%
Vote:December 31st, 2011 at 9:00 am
As predicted, the regular zealots emerge and spout their usual bile about the sovereign state and the sovereign territory of Israel.
Like it or not, Israel isn’t moving. And the inflammatory actions perpetuated by the terrorist organisation Hamas, won’t change anything (apart from increasing the casualty rate). And correction for the arch Hamas propagandist Luc: There is actually no territory called ‘Palestine’. And there isn’t a City called Atlantis either. Both are myths. FIFY.
Back on topic: also agree with the suggestion that the threshold should be raised rather than lowered in NZ. We have enough lunatics in our midst now – the suggestion that we should make it easier for more to enter Parliament, is simply scary.
Vote:December 31st, 2011 at 9:14 am
Oh look, Luc is back, and still hating Jews. Quelle surprise!
Vote:December 31st, 2011 at 10:01 am
“There is actually no territory called ‘Palestine’.”
Yes, it appears Palestinians are to be consigned to the “memory hole”, an “unpeople” who no longer meet the required standard to pass as human beings. Noam Chomsky’s point that, “It is a poor service to the memory of the victims of the Holocaust to adopt the central doctrine of their murderers.”, is best demonstrated in the rhetoric of the apologists for the Israeli ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from historic Palestine.
Vote:December 31st, 2011 at 10:14 am
If the people of Israel were not Jews no one would give a toss about Palestinians and no one would question the right of Israel to exist.
There is something – something dark and evil – within the human core which makes many unable to resist a dig or criticism of Jews whenever the opportunity presents itself; no matter how many people are murdered by Palestinian terrorists – doesn’t matter when you can accuse Jews of __________ [write your pet Jewish hate here] in a sanctimonious manner.
Israel could become a peaceful, friendly, economically vibrant nation solving all manner of the World’s problems. “Doesn’t matter – they are Jews and we secretly hate them!” (according to many)
In Gaza Palenstinian terrorists could engage in widespread chainsawing up of babies – 500 per day, for instance – and it would not matter “oh look how these poor people are being victimised by JEWS!”
Been happening for 2000 years.
Vote:December 31st, 2011 at 10:23 am
Interesting timing for this to become a story, I mean the buses have been segregated for what 20 years now.
I suspect it crept up on Israel, tolerated where it was not obvious & politically convenient ( to whit DPF’s threshold comment, though how sexism at this level can be justified for political means says more about those that allowed it than the political system ).
But also I suspect the govt was unable to stop this being a story this time, be real curious what that was, maybe social media.
Vote:December 31st, 2011 at 10:27 am
JamesS says:- “within the human core which makes many unable to resist a dig or criticism of Jews whenever the opportunity presents itself”
Rubbish. You’re implying that Israel should be above criticism, and that anyone who dares to have a critical opinion of Israel is an anti-Semite. That is a very dangerous mode of thought.
If you take the emotion out of the argument and concentrate on describing the situation as it is, then in theory there should be no prejudice or bigotry.
What most people argue about when it comes to the Israel/Palestine conundrum, is what constitutes fairness and justice. Race has nothing to do with those ideas.
Vote:December 31st, 2011 at 10:29 am
“There is actually no territory called ‘Palestine’.”
Yes, it appears Palestinians are to be consigned to the “memory hole”, an “unpeople” who no longer meet the required standard to pass as human beings
There is no such thing as “Palestine”, the nation.
“Palestine” is a geographic term, much like The Antipodes describes our area here down under. Is there such a thing as an ‘Antipodean’ language, culture, or people? Of course not. Same with Palestine. Even Jews before 1948 were lumped in and called Palestinians.
Vote:December 31st, 2011 at 10:29 am
Scott Chris – yes I do believe that people with critical opinions of Israel are anti-semites. Comments on here (and 1000001 other blogs) confirm my view.
You simply hate Jews. End of.
Vote:December 31st, 2011 at 10:42 am
Conflating Jewishness with crimes committed by the state of Israel is the real anti-Jewish sentiment. There are a large number of Jewish organisations and individuals who are appalled by Israel regularly committing crimes against humanity. No doubt, there were those who considered all Europeans everywhere were responsible for the crimes committed by the apartheid regime in South Africa – it is the exact same rationale.
As people of European descent cannot collectively be held responsible for the crimes carried out by the white apartheid regime in South Africa; similarly, people of Jewish descent cannot collectively be held responsible for the criminal activity of the state of Israel.
Vote:December 31st, 2011 at 10:59 am
JamesS “Scott Chris – yes I do believe that people with critical opinions of Israel are anti-semites.”
Foolish, the Palestinians are a semitic people. The great act of anti-semitism being carried out in Israel is the ethnic cleansing of the indigenous semitic population (Palestinians) by predominantly European colonists who happen to be descended from Europeans who converted to Judaism in the twelfth century.
Fletch: “There is no such thing as “Palestine”, the nation. … Even Jews before 1948 were lumped in and called Palestinians.”
There is a definite trend in the ‘Anglosphere’ establishment to air-brush Palestinians from their existence as an historically legitimate population, no amount of equivocating can hide this reality.
Vote:December 31st, 2011 at 11:43 am
JamesS says:- “You simply hate Jews. End of.”
Quite the contrary. Most of the people I admire and like the most have Jewish ancestry. Einstein, Woody Allen, Larry David, Jon Stewart, Richard Feynman, the Cohen Brothers, Spinoza and the historical Jesus etc…
They do suck at sport though. Fucking short assed big nosed woosies.
Vote:December 31st, 2011 at 12:19 pm
I do believe that people with critical opinions of Israel are anti-semites
Yes JamesS so do a lot of other people too. Why is that? Why is it impossible for people like you to assess and judge the actions of the Israeli govt separately to whether or not such an assessment is “anti-Semetic?”
I mean in the real world one separates and judges any other govt from its people all the time. Say if the Aussie govt does something stupid and counter-productive in the foreign policy arena, there is no widespread consensus amongst people that criticising said govt would be a betrayal of the Australian people.
Only in Israel does one find this conflation amongst people who think like you do.
The fact people like you only apply such thinking toward Israel and not to any other country on Earth is a sign people like you JamesS are looking at things the wrong way. You’re being inconsistent in your analysis. Of course you think such bias is valid as a matter of fact people like you think you’re not biased it’s the other people who are. But think about it JamesS, the other people, those who feel free to criticise Israel without thinking it’s a betrayal of her people, are the ones who are consistent, it’s people like you who are the inconsistent ones.
Vote:December 31st, 2011 at 12:32 pm
There is a definite trend in the ‘Anglosphere’ establishment to air-brush Palestinians from their existence as an historically legitimate population, no amount of equivocating can hide this reality.
Yoza, I’m sorry, but what “reality”? Show me.
There is no such people or culture. If there is a “Palestine” is is called Jordan.
Palestine is Jordan, even the Jordanian Kings admit it –
Here is Melanie Philips –
Vote:December 31st, 2011 at 12:35 pm
Great posts Fletch..Dream on Cha , reality may hit you one day.
Vote:December 31st, 2011 at 2:35 pm
An very relevant article by Barry Rubin at Pajamas Media, which includes this:
And I cannot resist quoting this, either
But it is interesting that in a month where Powerline blog can publish this article, detailing the increasing attacks on Christians of various sorts in the Middle East, often with fatal effects, everybody apparently being happy with such events occurring, but gets het up over the incident DPF describes. Storm, meet teacup.
Vote:January 3rd, 2012 at 11:16 pm
You guys are so incredibly stupid. How much sense do you need to realise that Iran with nuclear weapons is a bad idea? Of course they don’t want nuclear stuff for peaceful purposes you morons. There’s no arguing with wilfully blind lefties who think that anything non-Western is peaceful and tolerant and wonderful and that anything bad Muslims do (like blowing themselves up in the London underground) is the deserved result of evil Western imperialism. It’s all the West’s fault. The only consolation I take from this is that if you hate the West so much it must still have things worth dying for.
The only intelligent person in here is Fletch, who has heard of Melanie Phillips which increases my estimation of him even further.
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