Dom Post on water claim

September 20th, 2012 at 11:00 am by David Farrar

The Dom Post editorial:

The exact date of arrival in New Zealand is a mystery, although carbon dating and oral tradition point to the 13th century. About one thing, however, there is no doubt. Contrary to the impression created by the bellicose posturing of the king, have not ”always owned the ”.

Scientists estimate New Zealand broke away from the Gondwana supercontinent about 85 million years ago. Give or take a few hundred millennia, that means Maori have inhabited the country for about 0.0009 per cent of the time it has existed as a distinct entity. Rain fell from the skies, coursed down the hills and found its way into rivers, streams and lakes for millions of years before Maori first hauled their canoes up onto beaches, and will continue to do so long after humanity has ceased to exist. Claiming ownership of the water is about as foolish as claiming ownership of the wind, the air or the stars.

Thank you.

That is not to say Maori do not have a spiritual and emotional connection to particular waterways and lakes. They do, as do many non-Maori. Nor is it to deny that Maori may have ”residual proprietary” interests in particular streams, rivers and lakes arising from guarantees contained in the Treaty of Waitangi. The Waitangi Tribunal has ruled they do and Crown lawyers have effectively conceded the point. The argument is over the extent and nature of those interests.

However, to suggest, as did, that Maori own the water in the same way that someone can be said to own a television set, washing machine or pair of shoes is nonsensical.

Water cannot be owned; water rights can be, but they are a different thing and come with lesser entitlements. Conflating the two antagonises non-Maori, raises Maori expectations to levels that cannot be satisfied and undermines public support for the settlement of historic grievances.

Exactly. The posturing of the King has damaged his own cause – significantly.

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47 Responses to “Dom Post on water claim”

  1. Bevan (3,923 comments) says:

    Scientists estimate New Zealand broke away from the Gondwana supercontinent about 85 million years ago.

    WHAT?!?!?!?!?!?! You mean Maui didn’t fish it up with his magical fish hook?!?!?!?!?!?

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  2. Ender (105 comments) says:

    “Conflating the two antagonises non-Maori…”

    +1

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  3. hj (6,927 comments) says:

    I suppose the Indian man who left his hand brake off and his van rolled backwards into Lake Dunstan, (drowning his young son), has a spiritual connection with Lake Dunstan (although he must wish he didn’t).
    The old Maori spiritual thing is a mine is bigger than your’s (but I can’t show you) sort of argument.

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  4. wreck1080 (3,885 comments) says:

    Maori will still be holding their hands out 1000 years from now, and will remain beggars so long as they cannot stand on their own.

    Ridiculous claims should be met with ridicule. But, academics just love giving credence to such nonsense and forever perpetuating the plight of the poor old maori.

    Sort out the treaty claims, then treat all races equally under law.

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  5. hj (6,927 comments) says:

    Scientists estimate New Zealand broke away from the Gondwana supercontinent about 85 million years ago.
    ……

    ahhh…! but that is only in the world view of Western thinkers of the present time.
    http://johnansell.wordpress.com/2012/09/16/delahunty-derides-again/

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  6. LauraNorda (27 comments) says:

    Maybe the Tainui King and the King of the Kingitanga Movement, cause he definitely is not recognised as the Maori King by all Maori Tribes, should have stuck to the role he is more suited to, that of truck driving instead of the role he now sets himself up for, that of Prime Pontificator.

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  7. Manolo (13,590 comments) says:

    Maori should leave the honest and discreet Sir Ngatata Love to negotiate the water issue on their behalf.

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  8. hj (6,927 comments) says:

    David Round
    “The Treaty and race debates which have been tearing this country apart for a generation, which have been promoted by the dimwits in the bureaucracy and intelligentsia, and the hapless mainstream churches desperate to prove their own relevance, and which politicians have been too stupid or unprincipled to resist ~ these debates have not only promoted immensely harmful divisions but have been among the greatest of diversions from this great task. Indeed, the official philosophy, not just of racial agitators but of the bureaucratic class itself, seems to involve the assumption that accepting radical Maori claims will not only automatically be for the benefit of the country but that it will actually solve our problems, and set us on a sure path to brotherhood and prosperity. Really, they should review their medication.”
    http://www.nzcpr.com/guest306.htm

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  9. Lloyd (125 comments) says:

    If the so-called Maori king speaks, please note:
    1) He is NOT the king of all Maori (and neither were any of his predecessors)
    2) He is not offering a pan-Maori opinion
    3) He is not the spokesman for all Maori
    The same goes for David Rankin of Ngapuhi (the one who tried to claim the wind).
    Ditto Margaret Mutu and other assorted self-appointed spokespeople.
    Those who spew racist invective at any Maori pronouncement (especially some who react to this blog) should be aware that we do not speak with one voice, and nor do we want to.
    Just because some nutbar jumps up and makes a stupid claim does not mean that we all espouse the same view.
    In the same way, we do not assume that because you are of European descent, you are a clone of John Banks, Pastor Terry Jones (the guy who burnt the Koran), Stewart Murray Wilson or Ewan MacDonald. When I hear a European (yes, I use this to avoid offending those who don’t like ‘Pakeha’ as a title) speak, I do not automatically conflate them with the worst of the trash in my previous sentence. Do you?
    The idiot outpourings of self-appointed speakers for so-called radicals embarass us as much as they embarass most of the rest of this country. However, when you react to demonise all Maori (and those who use the phrase ‘Hori’ in their invective are especially loathsome) for what some twat says, it undoes the good work so many of us are striving to do.
    He ain’t my king, just as he ain’t yours.
    Understand?
    Sigh. Now the haters will vomit, not having read all of this.

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  10. Black with a Vengeance (1,845 comments) says:

    Do Samoans in Samoa own their water ?…of course they fucking do

    so why not Maori in NZ ?

    and yes Maui did fish NZ up with a magic hook…Fuck you guys are dumb!!!

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  11. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    Agreed Lloyd. After all it was the labour Maori MPs that fought hard for the foreshore and seabed to be publicly owned. They lost, now we all get fleeced.

    The best thing Maori could do is form a strong pressure group to stop the iwi elite using your Maori (like my children) for their self serving purposes. Maori only appear deprived/depraved by the statistical trick of self-identification. If the statistics were compiled on a percent ethnicity basis they would not stand out at all.

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  12. KevinH (1,221 comments) says:

    Looking at the debate with the other eye open, would the Dom Post do a story about how some boat people refugees escaping tyranny and oppression in the United Kingdom arrive in New Zealand, hoodwink the native people with a phony treaty, then claim to own all the resources by virtue of the same fake treaty?

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  13. Manolo (13,590 comments) says:

    Maori are blessed by having an intellectual giant such as BWAV on their side.

    His eloquence, his clear writing, his politeness and diplomatic behaviour are a first class asset to the Stone Agers. Way to go.

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  14. Viking2 (11,420 comments) says:

    ahhh so I get it. Maori also invented tax collectors.
    Overheard a conversation in the last few days where an IRD bully was harassing a taxpayer for not being able to pay some tax.
    The taxpayer told her that if the Govt. stopped giving to Maori then he wouldn’t need to pay so much.
    He was promptly accused of being racist (which he wasn’t being, mearly stating the facts).
    Not her job the label taxpayers but to suck it up. seems that Blenglish and piss pot Dunne are now on a collect the tax crusade. ( Govt.’s broke of course.)
    Last time they did that to a customer of mine they closed him down, cost the rest of the creditors a reasonable amount (causing them to lower their profit and pay less tax and not have to pay GST0, along with losing 60k less 3k that they recovered plus the cost of taking the action.
    And the guy jiust started up again without having to bother with the IRD.

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  15. hj (6,927 comments) says:

    Black with a Vengeance (830) Says:
    September 20th, 2012 at 12:13 pm
    Do Samoans in Samoa own their water ?…of course they fucking do

    so why not Maori in NZ ?
    …………………

    New Zealanders own the water in New Zealand, Samoans own the water in Samoa, Indians own the water in India. The fact that a small minority of people have a different view is neither here nor there.

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  16. hj (6,927 comments) says:

    KevinH (795) Says:
    September 20th, 2012 at 12:28 pm
    Looking at the debate with the other eye open, would the Dom Post do a story about how some boat people refugees escaping tyranny and oppression in the United Kingdom arrive in New Zealand, hoodwink the native people with a phony treaty, then claim to own all the resources by virtue of the same fake treaty?
    ………..
    you can spin this way and that but when you get down to principle, where does it say that Europeans (who vastly improved the carrying capacity of NZ) owe Maori for use of it’s resources? Do you see ownership as a purely selfish right to exclude or extract rents?

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  17. barry (1,317 comments) says:

    Its starting to look like others are starting to agree with me……….

    The so called Maori King is a blithering fool. Hes a foul mouthed slob who still tries to exert the bullying influence he had when he was a truck driver – ie: Im bigger than you so get out of the way.

    Long may he strut himself as the maori leader – hes one of those people who fulfill the old prophecy – “best to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool than to open it and be proven to be a fool”

    He has opened his mouth……..

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  18. seanmaitland (500 comments) says:

    Black With a Vengeance – the difference is, Samoans in Samoa are not greedy, lazy little pricks who don’t want to work or contribute to their country. They also don’t murder their children and then blame it on Warrior Genetics.

    You guys are an embarrassment to our nation, keep on drinking and smoking brah, Darwin is calling.

    And by the way, the Mori Ori own the water, if anyone does.

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  19. hj (6,927 comments) says:

    justification for Maori claims are mostly politically based, not law or ethics
    ……….

    According to the nineteenth century legal historian, F W. Maitland, the foundational group or tribe or clan is not, and has never been, part of the English constitution, even in Anglo-Saxon times. Maitland found that individualism, not foundational grouping, was the distinguishing characteristic of Anglo-Saxon legal, economic, and political relations. This means that English Common Law did not apply to foundational groups.

    ‘Maitland had shown that not all civilisations had started in a world where individuals were embedded within the community, where contract was entirely subordinate to status, and where hierarchy and patriarchy were universal.’ (Macfarlane, 2002, p. 83). Individuals and associations of individuals were recognised in various forms of contract at the beginning of the development of English common law. It is the individual (in these various forms of contractual trusts and associations), not the indivisible kin-group, which is the basis of that law.

    http://www.nzcpr.com/guest305.htmt

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  20. hj (6,927 comments) says:

    @ Lloyd (39)

    The problem is that there is a prominent part of Maoridom: the radical and the criminal/feral type on the one hand and (on the other ) friends and neighbors, relations through marriage. In public discourse “Maori” has become a shortcut to the former.

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  21. hj (6,927 comments) says:

    KevinH (795) Says:

    …………
    An omission there Kevin H.
    There was racial parity by 1858 and a large degree of intermarriage (carrying capacity mentioned above).

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  22. Paulus (2,608 comments) says:

    Maori King only said what Tuku Panties told him to say.

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  23. Bevan (3,923 comments) says:

    Looking at the debate with the other eye open, would the Dom Post do a story about how some boat people refugees escaping tyranny and oppression in the United Kingdom arrive in New Zealand, hoodwink the native people with a phony treaty, then claim to own all the resources by virtue of the same fake treaty?

    I wasn’t aware all non-maori New Zealander’s only came from the UK……

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  24. hj (6,927 comments) says:

    Bottom line of the Kevin H’s: because Maori were here first and because we attempted to come on moral terms and conditions, we need some sort of ticket to have been issued. The only ticket that satisfies Kevin H types is something where Maori write the rules and or all but non Maori pay for resources.

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  25. tvb (4,366 comments) says:

    The King speaks for Tainui and very little else. He call for a boycott was largely ignored. He does not carry much weight and probably much less than the late Queen

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  26. Longknives (4,691 comments) says:

    “Claiming ownership of the water is about as foolish as claiming ownership of the wind, the air or the stars.”

    But Maori do own the wind,the air and the stars. They also invented tattooing (despite the fact that Otzi the Iceman from 3000bc had tattoos..) and Rugby Union amongst other things.
    You see, it all comes down to the ‘unique Maori perspective’ that Hone and Delahunty are always talking about- It simply doesn’t matter what you Honkies think or what those pesky History books say, if Maori ‘believe’ they own/invented it then it must be so- Pakeha simply don’t understand!

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  27. Griff (7,520 comments) says:

    We must say stop or give in to ever escalating demands. appeasement will not halt the demands that have become more and more outrages as the treaty industry has progressed.

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  28. greenjacket (460 comments) says:

    Maori could conceiveably make a customary claim to water. But it would need to be shown that there was an initial right (genealogy, conquest), and that that right was continually exercised (“ahi ka”) and specific. So, for example, a right to fishing (which has long been recognised in NZ law), or to gathering a particular water plant. But a claim that “we own water” is just laughable. It shows that the Maori King is either very stupid, or else he is cynically trying to grasp for more money (though I suspect it is more that the king is a simpleton being manipulated by grifters like Tuku Morgan).

    The problem began with the Waitangi Tribunal. They have interpreted “taonga” in such an absurdly open way (anything that is treasured by Maori) and extended that right to proprietory interest. As a result, there is now a belief for many Maori (and point taken Lloyd that a lot of so-called Maori “leaders” only speak for themselves) that they only have to state loudly and insistently that something is taonga (important to them), and they get an automatic right to that (with the possibility of money).

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  29. David Garrett (7,112 comments) says:

    Lloyd: Well said Sir. The antics of various idiots must be a continuing frustration to you – clearly a reasonable and sensible man.

    If I may make one small point…this silly term “Maoridom” is partly to blame for your frustration and annoyance. It suggests that all Maori think the same about everything, which is clearly just as stupid as suggesting that all people with pale skins likewise agree on all issues affecting us.

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  30. Griff (7,520 comments) says:

    Number of persons on the moari electoral roll 240,000
    Number of persons who unidentified as moari last census 650,000

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  31. lastmanstanding (1,287 comments) says:

    Why dont we just be honest and say its a bunch of greedy opportunistic Horis having a lend on the soft cock liberals who like Neville Chamberlain will do anything to appease them

    And they know it. I have a sneaking admiration for these Horis. Gotta give them 10/10 for being cheeky.

    As a former Key supporter Im starting to lose my paitence with him and his side kicks. An when enough of us who have supported him up to know do so he will be dog tucker like Clark was.

    Key needs to harden up and show some leadership. He got the smacking law wrong over 80% against that and I reckon the result would be the same if there was a poll on the water issue.

    Time for the Nats to show some backbone tell the Horis the FOXTROT OSCAR.

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  32. lastmanstanding (1,287 comments) says:

    Just for confirmation my references to Horis are directed to Rankin the Maori King and those who are trying it on .NOT to the vast majority of Maori people who have seen nothing of the Billion Dolllar hand outs all of which have gone to the Maori aristocracy. Yes there is a Maori aristocracy and its more ingrained than anything in England.
    Certain families skim not only the cream but most of the milk and the drips fall to the rest.
    None of the Billion Dollars has made a rats arse difference to the statistics that Maori are at the head of. Crime Child Abuse et al.

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  33. Longknives (4,691 comments) says:

    As much as I detest ‘Hip Hop’ music I must say I admired the rapper who simply ignored all the tongue poking and bullshit at the airport..as he said, he had better things to do.
    It amazes me that Maori demand EVERYONE must pander to their culture (i:e stand quietly while some guy pokes his tongue,hisses and makes throat slitting gestures at you…)
    Oh well, I’m sure the Kapa haka group were still paid handsomely by the ever-generous New Zealand taxpayer for their efforts..

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  34. seanmaitland (500 comments) says:

    @lastmanstanding – so if you are a former Key supporter, who are you supporting now?

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  35. Cunningham (843 comments) says:

    Anyone commenting should read Lloyd’s post. He sums it up perfectly.

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  36. Kleva Kiwi (289 comments) says:

    So, because the human body is made up of 60-70% water, and this water obviously comes from NZ for anyone born here, does this mean that Maoris own 60-70% of all New Zealanders? or does it mean that all New Zealanders are Maori and therefore have so called ownership as well…

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  37. Mark (1,481 comments) says:

    Does this mean that Maori are responsible for all the leaky building claims currently before the government? If its their water that’s causing the problem … ;)

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  38. jaba (2,137 comments) says:

    “Maori oral tradition” .. mmmm, what does that mean .. did they have calendars 600-1000 years ago, or did they put a nick in a tree every time it went dark. It doesn’t really matter if they were here 2000 years ago, they don’t own “the water”. I am 90% or whatever water so do they own me?

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  39. lastmanstanding (1,287 comments) says:

    seanmaitland I didnt say I have stopped supporting Key just that Im losing my paitence with him. I had hoped he would have the balls to stand up and call out those who have selfish self centred motives.
    I had hoped he would govern for ALL Kiwis not just iwis and I hope he will but day by day he is starting to look more and more like Neville Chamberlain when he Neville stood at the door of the aircraft just back from visiting Herr Hitler and waving the bit of paper and declaring Peace in our Time.

    Key is looking more of an appeaser than a leader as time goes on. Hes like the kid at school who wants to be friends with everyone even the bad kids the bullies. I liken the Horis to those bullies and Key to the kid at school. He doesnt want to upset them or fall out with them.

    As I said unless Key steps up to the plate on this I will for the first time in my voting life that began with the 1972 election and yes I did vote for Norm Kirk I will abstain on the grounds that none of those standing deserve my vote and none of them have earned the right to represent me in the Parliament.

    This is one of the great joys of democracy and as Winston Churchill said it may have its problems but its better than any other system of governance.

    I also suspect I may not be alone amongst former Nat supporters who like me are getting sick to death of having governments who fiddle whilst Rome burns.

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  40. Mr_Blobby (165 comments) says:

    Being a New Zealander of Maori decent I identify as a New Zealander. I don’t recognize this pretender to an, Alice in wonderland version of a wannaben King.

    Speaking on behalf of other New Zealanders, we don’t know you, we don’t want you and the sooner you climb back into whatever hole you climbed out of the better.

    Now that I have got that off my chest can some one please tell me who funds this King and his court jesters? I can’t imagine that they, the elite, are funding it themselves, that would be very unMaori. I can only conclude that the Tax payer is funding it. Does anybody know or is it a state secret.

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  41. Mr_Blobby (165 comments) says:

    Your right lastmanstanding he went to Waitangi where he got the message that we can get to you anywhere anytime and the Police can’t protect you, and he has been running scared ever since.

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  42. Manolo (13,590 comments) says:

    I also suspect I may not be alone amongst former Nat supporters who like me are getting sick to death of having governments who fiddle whilst Rome burns.

    Hear, hear.

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  43. Nigel (512 comments) says:

    Ngāpuhi appear to have lost at least a generation of development to other major tribes in financial/management skills & as such they are getting whipped financially by Tainui/Ngāi Tahu.

    You’d have to think their leadership are getting desperate now least their Whanau start asking some seriously pointed questions as to why their southern cousins are doing so much better.

    A coincidence they are grasping at straws with Wind/Water ownership aspirations, maybe, it certainly allows them to sell a protest/struggle story to avoid focus on their own fiscal failings.

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  44. RF (1,381 comments) says:

    Lloyd. Must admit I do agree with you. Pity there are not more of the Maori race and our lot that thinks like that.

    Mr. Blobby. Thank you for talking sense. I get really worried when the truck driver opens his mouth and spouts forth.

    lastmanstanding…. It’s a worry and I think JK should be on notice to start kicking arse and not try to be everyone’s friend.

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  45. MH (713 comments) says:

    In golden times it was verboten for Maori even when under siege and trapped in his Pa, and short of water to drink any water that came from the roof of his whare. I wonder how many maraes have tank water from their roofs – must have got dispensation from the local Tohunga or just another taonga to be adapted,for the ends justifies the means.

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  46. kingoffsider (1 comment) says:

    So if the Maori got water and wind ownership, would they in turn offer compensation for all the damage caused by their new assets?. With all the flooding and tornado’s reported of late I would imagine they may be not that financially viable!.

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  47. wtfunz (133 comments) says:

    Lloyd – 12.10pm – nice view however I’m not jumping into D Garretts fan club just yet.
    A couple of questions:-
    Your full view on “Water rights” please?
    Your vote re TOW tribunal settlements? Fair and must continue or must end?
    Your thoughts on this idea :-
    Assuming we, as a country, are hell bent on paying millions for the “perceived wrongs” of our useless Pommy ancestors then so be it; BUT only on these terms.
    Settlements are in cash which is given in equal proportions to each clearly identified tribe member. It is then up to the individual member wether or not he keeps it or gives it back to the tribe to manage. Every member then benefits and has a choice. Obviously cash in the bank or “shares” in the Tribes trust/company are declarable to WINZ, DPB, Courts etc.
    New Zealanders can then see the money going to poor Maori and they will all be able to grow their new found wealth however they choose. Will a lot more people not be “happier”????

    Look forward to a detailed response. …. cheers.

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