The extent of the extremism

September 24th, 2012 at 9:00 am by David Farrar

I think we often try to comfort ourselves that the “extreme” faction of is just a few thousand uneducated poor and/or jobless Muslims. But the sad reality is that the extreme faction has wide-spread support from leaders down. They are definitely still a minority, and rejected by most Muslims, but they are not a trivial number.

We see this, in this story on NZ Herald:

A Pakistani official on Saturday placed a US$100,000 bounty on the head of the maker of an anti-Islam film that has sparked a wave of violence and anger, as Muslims mounted fresh protests worldwide.

Railways Minister also called on the Taliban and Al-Qaeda to join the hunt and help accomplish the “noble deed.”

Bilour spoke to reporters in the northwestern city of Peshawar a day after violent nationwide demonstrations against the “Innocence of Muslims” film left 21 people dead and more than 200 injured.

“I announce today that this blasphemer who has abused the holy prophet, if somebody will kill him, I will give that person a prize of $100,000,” Bilour said, urging others to shower the killer with cash and gold.

“I also invite Taliban and Al-Qaeda brothers to be partners in this noble deed,” he added. “I also announce that if the government hands this person over to me, my heart says I will finish him with my own hands and then they can hang me.”

Even worse, neither his Government nor his party are taking any action against him. They are saying that his statement are personal views, not Government policy, so no need to do anything!

I think we are understanding how Osama managed to live in for so long, undetected.

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69 Responses to “The extent of the extremism”

  1. Fairfacts Media (370 comments) says:

    A minority of extremists?
    Here’s what the respected Pew Resesearch centre reported recently.
    http://pewresearch.org/databank/dailynumber/?NumberID=1184

    “About eight-in-ten Muslims in Egypt and Pakistan (82% each) endorse the stoning of people who commit adultery; 70% of Muslims in Jordan and 56% of Nigerian Muslims share this view. Muslims in Pakistan and Egypt are also the most supportive of whippings and cutting off of hands for crimes like theft and robbery; 82% in Pakistan and 77% in Egypt favor making this type of punishment the law in their countries, as do 65% of Muslims in Nigeria and 58% in Jordan. When asked about the death penalty for those who leave the Muslim religion, at least three-quarters of Muslims in Jordan (86%), Egypt (84%) and Pakistan (76%) say they would favor making it the law; in Nigeria, 51% of Muslims favor and 46% oppose it. In contrast, Muslims in Lebanon, Turkey and Indonesia largely reject the notion that harsh punishments should be the law in their countries. About three-quarters of Turkish and Lebanese Muslims oppose the stoning of people who commit adultery (77% and 76%, respectively), as does a narrower majority (55%) of Muslims in Indonesia. Opposition to whippings and cutting off of hands for crimes like theft and robbery and the death penalty for people who leave Islam is even more widespread in these three countries; 86% of Muslims in Lebanon, 82% in Turkey and 61% in Indonesia are against making harsh punishments for robbery and theft the law in their countries, and 93%, 91% and 64%, respectively, object to the death penalty against those who leave the Muslim religion”

    Now, where does New Zealand and other Western countries import their muslims from?
    Ask yourselves is it wise when they hold such views?
    How long will our way of life survive should there be many more muslims than there currently is today?

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  2. Manolo (12,614 comments) says:

    The Pakistani minister and his followers belong to the darkest period of the Dark Ages.
    Savages, plain and simple savages.

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  3. Brad (75 comments) says:

    “But the sad reality is that the extreme faction has wide-spread support from leaders down. They are definitely still a minority, and rejected by most Muslims, but they are not a trivial number.” Replace “extremist Muslim” with “fundamentalist Jew” and you’ve got a pretty accurate summary of Judaism, Israeli politics and the occupied territories

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  4. bereal (3,137 comments) says:

    Just in case you missed this yesterday.

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=084_1348151389

    this bloke is on to it and quite witty in a sarcastic kind of way.

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  5. Manolo (12,614 comments) says:

    Replace “extremist Muslim” with “fundamentalist Jew”…

    Really?

    How many “fundamentalist Jews” have blown themselves to pieces and killed many others in the process? How many have rioted and attacked foreign embasies worldwide? How many are part of terror groups that plant bombs in public places?

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  6. wreck1080 (3,522 comments) says:

    A large percentage of muslims like to blow shit up because most ‘muslims’ are secretly empathetic with their more radical peers?

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  7. Mary Rose (392 comments) says:

    >I think we often try to comfort ourselves that the “extreme” faction of Islam is just a few thousand uneducated poor and/or jobless Muslims. But the sad reality is that the extreme faction has wide-spread support from leaders down.

    Don’t know who ‘we’ is, but I’ve always assumed the extreme faction was FROM the leaders. Who use it to either cement or increase their own power. Controlling the uneducated poor etc.

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  8. Falafulu Fisi (2,176 comments) says:

    US should do the same to Islam today as it did to Japan aggression’s in WW2.

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  9. Rufus (606 comments) says:

    P. Marek :

    “History lessons are often incredibly simple and blunt; yet, for all our powers of reason, we often miss the most basic and uncomplicated of points. Peace-loving Muslims have been made irrelevant by the fanatics. Peace-loving Muslims have been made irrelevant by their silence. Peace-loving Muslims will become our enemy if they don’t speak up, because, like my friend from Germany, they will awaken one day and find that the fanatics own them, and the end of their world will have begun.

    Peace-loving Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Russians, Rwandans, Bosnians, Afghanis, Iraqis, Palestinians, Somalis, Nigerians, Algerians and many others, have died because the peaceful majority did not speak up until it was too late. As for us, watching it all unfold, we must pay attention to the only group that counts: the fanatics who threaten our way of life.”

    from http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/6996

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  10. Falafulu Fisi (2,176 comments) says:

    Brad, go and wank yourself over that corner for a minute. It is white liberal fuckers and appeasers like you that the Muslims want to kill if you’re walking along a street in Cairo. They wouldn’t touch me, since I’m brown (unless you’re also brown too). I’ll blend in with the population and they think I’m one of their kind, so I’ll be safe. For you, they will kidnap you and behead you and put the video on youtube. Why would you want to fuck’en appease a culture & savage people that want to kill whites like you? You fucking stupid idiot.

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  11. kowtow (6,685 comments) says:

    Extent of extremism?

    Watch the Pakistani High Commissioner to the UK talk all the usual platitudes and lies that “moderate” Muslims always use when addressing ignorant westernrs…..compassion ,peace and love, respect for Jesus and Moses. But then and I kid you not the “century of terror” is all GWBush’s fault for using one word “crusade”…….so it’s all GWB’s fault. And despite all that peace,love and compassion he assures us that if he himself had insulted the prophet he too would be killed!

    This guy is the equivalent of the Pak ambassador to the UK,so he’s no illiterate rag head from the hills.

    http://news.sky.com/story/988358/pakistan-pm-condemns-100k-islam-film-bounty

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  12. eszett (2,264 comments) says:

    bereal (2,091) Says:
    September 24th, 2012 at 9:13 am

    Just in case you missed this yesterday.

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=084_1348151389

    this bloke is on to it and quite witty in a sarcastic kind of way.

    That’s Pat Condell, here is his Youtube channel

    http://www.youtube.com/user/patcondell

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  13. Brian Smaller (3,915 comments) says:

    It is completely irrelevant that in some countries a majority of Muslims don’t like bombings, beheadings,murders and so forth. They are not the ones in the driving seat of the Islamic jihad. They are at best compliant passengers. Ask those same moderate Muslims if they want to live under sharia law and a whacking percentage say “yes”.

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  14. Jimmy Smits (246 comments) says:

    The thing is though that their method of protest (violence etc) is effective. Most filmmakers are going to think twice now before making another cartoon due to the threat to their personal safety. I hardly doubt Muslims are concerned about the fact that protesting in this manner is going to put Westerners off from respecting Islam, as they see it as us and them. They’re quite similar to anti-abortionists who think aggressive tactics is going to convince young mothers that they’re murderers, because they’re so convinced that their religion is right about it and will do anything, even going as far as murdering doctors, to be seen as harbingers of justice because they prevented a fake ‘baby’ to be killed.

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  15. lastmanstanding (1,154 comments) says:

    Im with Falafulu Fisi. The only way to deal to the towel heads is to nuke them like the Yanks did the Japs. They only understand violence. Look at how they react to anything and everything.
    And Brad trying to compare the towel heads to the Jews is a sick joke. Jews work hard and contribute to the society they live in. They are hard workers. The towel heads are a lazy bunch are arseholes. look at their countries rubbish everywhere in the streets. Dirty little creatures all of them.

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  16. Scott Chris (5,675 comments) says:

    How many “fundamentalist Jews” have blown themselves to pieces and killed many others in the process?

    Well I’m sure Sampson would have considered it had he had the technology. Instead, temporarily given special strength by God, he pushed the pillars apart and brought the roof crashing in on the Philistines killing himself in the process. Kinda scripture some Jews would be inclined to refer to if they were imprisoned in Gaza for instance.

    As for the Pakistani minister – stupid posturing idiotic demagogue. Kinda like Netanyahu in a lot of ways. Needs a bullet.

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  17. cha (3,524 comments) says:

    http://www.thejc.com/news/world-news/82802/mohammed-film-anatomy-a-lie

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  18. tom hunter (3,998 comments) says:

    They are definitely still a minority, and rejected by most Muslims, but they are not a trivial number.

    Baby steps I suppose. It makes quite a change from 2005, when Mark Steyn made the same point and was roundly condemned for it.

    The problem with the “rejected” notion is that it assumes the moderate Muslims can actually win their arguments on the basis of the Koran, in the way that modern Christians can win (or at least call a draw) with fundamentalist Christians hammering away from Leviticus and the rest of the Old Testament.

    In the Koran there is no New Testament, let alone a Reformation. So at best a moderate Muslim is left with a few contradictory pieces from the earliest parts of the Koran (when diplomacy was required by a still weak Mohammed), to put up against the huge amount of Death-To-The-Infidel stuff that comes later on.

    In short, being a moderate Muslim has always meant that you had to simply ignore the parts of the Koran that demanded you deal harshly with infidels (or thieves and adulterers), which millions of Muslim immigrants to the West were able to do for decades. However, unlike Christians ignoring the nastier commands of the Bible, there was no large, solid body of Koranic interpretation to back up their decisions to ignore parts of the Koran. As this commentator noted:

    He can read the texts in Arabic, has lived in the Mideast for an extended period of time, and studied the field academically. I asked if he could put forward a textually based Islamic argument that proves that aggressive violence is not integral to Islam. After all, he knew the source material, could read it in Arabic, and was familiar with the pros and cons of this topic. I believed he was qualified and I wanted earnestly to hear his side of the argument.

    Over the next several months we discussed and debated the topic. Unfortunately the best he could do was provide flimsy articles and quotations that others, Muslims and non-Muslims had written, which argued that violence was not inherent to Islam. When I took them apart he could not provide a response. In the end he agreed with me that the Islamic source texts establish aggressive violence and that Islam’s major theological schools as well as the majority of the great classical Muslim Islamic scholars supported my side of the argument. His only counter was that modern Muslim scholars be allowed to re-interpret the Islamic texts for reapplication in our times, saying more or less: “Why should we be relegated to abiding by the opinion of the historic scholars? We should allow modern scholars to re-interpret the texts and apply those new innovative, interpretations.” He, like many others, hope that through these scholar’s creativity, Islam can be re-fashioned into a non-violent faith by a successful Islamic reformist movement.

    Fat chance I think, especially when one has fire-breathing assholes like Omar Abdel Rahman sitting within your society and theologically dominating any Muslims who dare speak against them. During his trial, that fact became quite clear to his prosecutors, some of whom had been operating under the “fringe-extremist” theory:

    I was first struck by this sad fact during our terrorism trial in 1995, when I had to get ready to cross-examine the “Blind Sheikh,” Omar Abdel Rahman. Though he ended up opting not to testify, I still had to prepare. Back then I thought that if what we were saying as a government were true – if these terrorists were lying about Islam and perverting its doctrine in order to justify mass-murder attacks – then surely I should be able to locate three or four places where the Blind Sheikh had misstated the Koran and the other species of Muslim scripture. I searched high and low, but there were none.

    To be sure, Islamic scriptures say a lot of things, and some of them are admirable. Good faith contentions can surely be made that passages terrorists cite need to be considered in conjunction with other passages they omit. (That’s a weak argument, by the way, but not a risible one.) But the point is that where the Blind Sheikh cited scripture, he did it quite accurately. Moreover, he is not, as we’d like to have it, a lunatic; he is a renowned doctor of Islamic jurisprudence graduated from al-Azhar University in Egypt – the seat of Sunni learning and one of the oldest and most respected academic institutions in the world.

    His construction of Islam, however frightening, was literal and cogent.

    Try having an argument with someone like that when you don’t have such a Doctorate – and with the possible threat of being labelled an apostate hanging over your head – and doing so merely to save the lives of some infidels.

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  19. Fletch (5,716 comments) says:

    And now the some in Egypt are calling for an appeal to the U.N to make any criticism of Islam illegal.

    The head of the largest ultraconservative Islamist party in Egypt is calling for United Nations legislation to make defaming Islam and the Prophet Muhammad illegal.

    Salafist Nour Party leader Emad Abdel Ghaffour told Reuters on Saturday that Egyptian President Mohammad Morsi and other Muslim leaders should demand U.N. action during a meeting of the General Assembly in New York this week.

    “We call for legislation or a resolution to criminalize contempt of Islam as a religion and its prophet,” Ghaffour told Reuters in an interview. “The voice of reason in the West will prevail if there is mutual respect, dialogue and efficient lobbying for this critical resolution.”

    The Salafist Nour Party is the second-largest party in Egyptian parliament and played an important role in supporting the Muslim Brotherhood during presidential elections this summer, according to Reuters.

    Mutual respect, my ass.
    Looks like Free Speech is on the way out …

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  20. my 2 cents (1,091 comments) says:

    DPF
    I think you are possibly an educated and intelligent person, so what is stopping you from understanding Sharia law which is the practical outworking of Islam’s main ideological philosophies as recorded in their books, the Koran, The Sira, the Hadiths.

    That is what holds Islam and the people together, that is why the jihadis get protection, finance, other resources and support from ordinary Muslims.
    I’ve read Daniel Pipes over the last 10 yrs and he points to min 6 and max 14%. go read his archives at http://www.danielpipes.org.
    That’s 60-140 million people around the globe. notwithstanding others who are too frightened to say no.

    Look at Australia right now, facing a UN General Session vote on whether they can have a security council seat, they let a terrorist supporter encourager in but keep Gert Wilders out!

    So stop pussy footing around and get the info rad the book before commenting. I mean thats best practice isn’t it?

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  21. Chthoniid (1,966 comments) says:

    Presumably it would remain ok to mention Muhammad’s war-mongering, slave-ownership and sexual liaison with a preteen girl as this isn’t defamation, but citation of historical facts :P

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  22. my 2 cents (1,091 comments) says:

    as we have seen any excuse is an excuse to direct angry crowds towards the dhimmis in the west.

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  23. ChardonnayGuy (1,023 comments) says:

    I think part of the question is which set of Muslim radicals- Shia, as in Iran, Bahrain and Iraq, or Sunni, as in Afghanistan, Pakistan, other parts of Iraq and Chechnya? Don’t forget, they tend to have considerable internal animosities as well and engage in considerable interneccine violence. Added to which, there are equivalent animosities within Israel between mainstream secular Jews and violent Ultra-Orthodox fundamentalist Hasidim and Haredim. And the United States has problems with its own fundamentalist Christian pressure groups, some of which turned to anti-abortion terrorism back in the nineties. Let’s be clear about this- it is religious fundamentalism which is incompatible with liberal democracy.

    Note also that Kiwi Muslims have been commendably level-headed and civil about that ghastly video, despite the provocation. Their constructive attitude should be applauded.

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  24. Fletch (5,716 comments) says:

    Kinda scripture some Jews would be inclined to refer to if they were imprisoned in Gaza for instance.

    The same Gaza, which is home to 600 Millionaires? (Thanks to smuggling)

    There are 600 millionaires living in Gaza, which mainstream media for years have reported is an “humanitarian disaster” blamed on Israel for what was a partial blockade of materials that could possibly be used to build weapons manufacturing plants and rockets aimed at Israeli civilians. The blockade has been all but lifted, except for the maritime ban that a United Nations report has said is legal.

    Even before the land blockade, which has been lifted except for materials used directly for terror, smuggling has been a staple of the Gaza economy for decades,

    Rafiah, a city which straddles both sides of the border between Gaza and Egypt, is the home of hundreds of underground tunnels that are used to transport everything imaginable – drugs, slave trade, cement, medicine, terrorists, advanced weapons, explosive and even vehicles.

    The same tunnel have turned Gaza smugglers into millionaires, according to the Arabic language Ash-Sharq Al-Awsat, quoted by Gatestone Institute contributor Khaled Abu Toameh

    After years of headlines stating that a “humanitarian crisis” in Gaza is imminent, the United Nations last year finally called off the warning, admitting there is no such thing.

    New Jewish communities in Gush Katif and construction companies in southern Israel gave employment to tens of thousands of Gaza Arabs, and Jews frequently shopped in Gaza City and Khan Yunis.

    The Intifada turned the economy on its head, slowing driving it into a recession as Jewish employers no longer could depend on workers not being terrorists.

    With the outbreak of the Second Intifada in 2000, also know as the Oslo War in memory of the failed peace accords, Hamas increased its grip on Gaza and eventually threw out the rival Fatah movement in a bloody civil war in 2007.

    [Hamas] now pockets millions of dollars in payments from tunnel smugglers, while restricting legal imports so that both tunnel owners and Hamas can benefit.

    With an estimated 25 percent of Hamas’ government income coming from taxes on merchandise and owners of the tunnels, destroying them could infuriate Hamas as well as throw a monkey-wrench into what now is a stable but suppressive economy.

    Egypt’s problem is that the same tunnels are used to smuggle advanced weapons for the use of Arab terrorists on both sides of Rafiah against the Muslim Brotherhood regime.

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  25. kowtow (6,685 comments) says:

    jimmy smuts attempts to hijack the thread with drawing an equivalence between the infinitly tiny minority of violent anti abortionists (mainly in the US) with the relatively large minority of violent jihadis (world wide).
    The violent anti abortionists end up arrested and gaoled while the jihadis end up s heroes and “martyrs”.

    Oh look another example of peace,love compassion and respect for Jesus, a prophet of Islam.

    http://www.aljazeera.com/news/africa/2012/09/2012923101837472250.html

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  26. Falafulu Fisi (2,176 comments) says:

    Not PC blog has got a series of excellent blog posts about war on islam. Its very good reading.

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  27. tom hunter (3,998 comments) says:

    I posted this a few days ago in the Ironic indeed thread, but this last part of my comment bears repeating, since it is a quote from an interview qith Zeyno Baran, author of The Other Muslims: Moderate and Secular:

    the misuse of the label “moderate Muslim,” by Islamist groups operating in the West, has indeed led to major misunderstandings. This is precisely why I used this term in this book — to clear up this misunderstanding and reclaim the term from the Islamists, many of whom represent themselves as “moderates” to Western policy makers. American and European policy makers have accepted as “moderate” people who do not commit violence; to me, however, that is a very narrow definition.

    An Islamist that participates in the electoral process yet does so with the goal of limiting women’s rights or of introducing a sharia regime is not moderate.

    Never, ever forget that definition.

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  28. kowtow (6,685 comments) says:

    And here is that loving ,peaceful and compassionate sharia in action.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/16/iran-public-executions-hangings-human-rights

    While this news item comes from the lefty Guardian ,these executions get little coverage from the MSM ,especially when compared to the odium heaped on the US whenever some real evil doer is sent to meet his maker.

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  29. edhunter (434 comments) says:

    Dont know our these guys get away with it, maybe because it’s beyond the average raghead’s tech level but long may they continue http://www.jesusandmo.net/

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  30. Tom Jackson (2,231 comments) says:

    The Pakistani minister and his followers belong to the darkest period of the Dark Ages.

    Oh dear. That’s an inappropriate comparison.

    You do realise that the “dark” ages were only dark in Western Christendom, right? At that time, the Islamic world was effectively coterminous with the “civilised” world (at least in the west). The most obvious piece of evidence for this is the numerals we all use. Yes, due to the dark ages, the Muslims ended up having to re-teach Christendom how to count properly. We call algebra “algebra” for a reason.

    Yes, the Pakistani minister is a cretin, but let’s not go overboard.

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  31. RRM (8,988 comments) says:

    You’ve travelled in Iran DPF. I haven’t.

    Do YOU think all the Death to America! stuff is their actual foreign policy?

    Or is it all party political broadcasting, to keep the public on-side with the gubermint?

    Or a bit of both?

    Or something else entirely?

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  32. Fletch (5,716 comments) says:

    @Tom Jackson 12:33

    According to Wiki, the Indians were the first to use those numerals, later adopted by Arabs and others.
    The Arabs call them Hindsa (Indian numerals) giving credit where it is due…

    Arabic numerals or Hindu numerals[1][2] or Hindu-Arabic numerals[2][3] or Indo-Arabic numerals[4] are the ten digits (0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9). They are descended from the Hindu-Arabic numeral system developed by Indian mathematicians,[5] in which a sequence of digits such as “975″ is read as a numeral. The Indian numerals were adopted by the Persian and Arabic mathematicians in India, and passed on to the Arabs further west. They were transmitted to Europe in the Middle Ages

    5^ Bulliet, Richard (2010). The Earth and Its Peoples: A Global History, Volume 1. Cengage Learning. p. 192. ISBN 1439084742. “Indian mathematicians invented the concept of zero and developed the “Arabic” numerals and system of place-value notation used in most parts of the world today”

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  33. DJP6-25 (1,228 comments) says:

    I wonder what it will take for civilised countries to stop Muslim immigration in light of this information?

    cheers

    David Prossser

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  34. my 2 cents (1,091 comments) says:

    ChardonnayGuy (4) Says:
    September 24th, 2012 at 10:41 am
    “Let’s be clear about this- it is religious fundamentalism which is incompatible with liberal democracy.
    Note also that Kiwi Muslims have been commendably level-headed and civil about that ghastly video, despite the provocation. Their constructive attitude should be applauded.”

    4 posts, who are you channeling?

    You bleat up Xstian USA fundies against, a worldwide violence, against all things non muslim, all over the globe with hundreds of bombings and killings a year, year in year out??

    Thank God the Kiwi Muslims don’t number 20% of our population otherwise you’d be in the shit too!

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  35. Brian Smaller (3,915 comments) says:

    So the Muslim empires were shining beacons of knowledge in the Middle Ages? So what? Meaningless seeing as they are still there.

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  36. MH (558 comments) says:

    Advocating the murder of someone for their views ? What do gooder lawyer is going to take this paki to court and what court ? Amnesty Int? And what do-gooder lawyer will defend the Paki Minister ? Do we have to wait till the order is complied with ? Salman Rush-to-die is doing OK,I think they withdrew the death sentence or put it under the pig for a future time.

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  37. Brian Smaller (3,915 comments) says:

    @MH – The death fatwah on Rushdie has been re-issued, along with an increase in the bounty on his head. These bastards are playing a long game.

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  38. Fletch (5,716 comments) says:

    It looks like Obama is going to release a third of the occupants of Gitmo, despite one of its former inmates allegedly being behind the attack in Egypt.

    President Barack Obama is about to release or transfer 55 Gitmo prisoners, despite reports that the Libyan believed to be behind the killing of US Ambassador Christopher Stevens was a former Guantanamo inmate transferred to Libyan custody.
    The large percentage of those scheduled to be released are Yemeni, according to a list made public by the Obama administration.

    And –

    The man who is believed to be the leader of the attack on the U.S. consulate in Benghazi, Libya, that killed four Americans, including the U.S. Ambassador, was a former al-Qaeda terrorist released from Guantanamo Bay.

    Sufyan Ben Qumu is said to have formerly been Osama bin Laden’s driver. He was let out of the U.S. military detention center at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, in 2007, when he was turned over to the government of Muammar Gaddafi on the condition that he remain behind bars. While in U.S. custody, Qumu, 53, was characterized as “medium to high” risk to national security, and he refused to cooperate with authorities and explain his past associations with Islamic extremists.

    It is now believed that he led the September 11th attack on the U.S. consulate, in which John Christopher Stevens became the first U.S. ambassador killed by overseas violence since 1979.

    http://www.clevelandleader.com/node/18874

    I’m sorry, but Obama is an idiot. WTF does he think he’s doing?
    The Muslims attack, threaten, and then get results.
    What do you think they’re going to keep doing?

    Obama has no idea at all…
    He should be ousted TODAY.

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  39. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    Note also that Kiwi Muslims have been commendably level-headed and civil about that ghastly video, despite the provocation. Their constructive attitude should be applauded.

    Pretty sure that my Kiwi Muslim friends would just look at me in disbelief if I applauded them for acting like nice, sane human beings they are.

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  40. MH (558 comments) says:

    I wondered why Sonny Bill took to the haka with gusto,it’s all the throat slitting antics….but hey..as long as he plays for the AB’s I’ll turn the other cheek but I’d also check those shoulder pads each game,no wonder Richie has gone all sabbatical.

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  41. emmess (1,332 comments) says:

    Note also that Kiwi Muslims have been commendably level-headed and civil about that ghastly video, despite the provocation. Their constructive attitude should be applauded.

    Not really, I don’t think we need to give anyone a medal for NOT being insane.
    But we should give credit where it is due, and I applaud the Muslim protestors in Libya who overran the bases of the radical Islamist militias and ran them out of their towns.

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  42. scrubone (2,971 comments) says:

    Note also that Kiwi Muslims have been commendably level-headed and civil about that ghastly video, despite the provocation. Their constructive attitude should be applauded.

    Thing is, I’ve yet to find a Muslim leader in this country who, upon examination, is actually opposed to these extremists. Usually all it takes is a few google searches and you quickly find quotes and links that show them to be simply putting on a moderate face.

    But on the other hand, I would love to be proven wrong on that.

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  43. scrubone (2,971 comments) says:

    Let’s be clear about this- it is religious fundamentalism which is incompatible with liberal democracy.

    Do you include anti-religious fundamentalism in your definition of religious fundamentalism? Just curious.

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  44. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    Do you include anti-religious fundamentalism in your definition of religious fundamentalism? Just curious.

    I would. Both attempts to legislate religion on everyone and legislate religionlessness on everyone are contrary to liberal democracy.

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  45. tom hunter (3,998 comments) says:

    For all the discussions about Muslim extremists let’s remember that a lot of this crap can also be tamped down if Western politicians and people are firm in defending their principles of free speech. Unfortunately that has not been the case recently, with US representatives up and down the line trying to get a head-start on Islamic reactions to the stupid YouTube trailer, by also registering their “disgust” or “abhorrence” about it.

    I doubt that’s going to work, and it may make things worse, but in any case it’s utterly hypocrtical, as Mark Steyn explains in his usual witty fashion:

    What other entertainments have senior U.S. officials reviewed lately? Last year Hillary Clinton went to see the Broadway musical Book of Mormon. “We reject all efforts to denigrate the religious beliefs of others”? The Book of Mormon’s big showstopper is “Hasa Diga Eebowai” which apparently translates as “F*** you, God.”

    The U.S. secretary of state stood and cheered.

    Why does Secretary Clinton regard “F*** you, God” as a fun toe-tapper for all the family but “F*** you, Allah” as “disgusting and reprehensible”? The obvious answer is that, if you sing the latter, you’ll find a far more motivated crowd waiting for you at the stage door. So the “leader of the free world” and “the most powerful man in the world” (to revive two cobwebbed phrases nobody seems to apply to the president of the United States anymore) is telling the planet that the way to ensure your beliefs command his “respect” is to be willing to burn and bomb and kill.

    You Mormons need to get with the program.

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  46. Odakyu-sen (248 comments) says:

    This is not my quote:

    “We need to drain the ponds in which the terrorists swim.” (A reference to Muslim enclaves.)

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  47. Reid (15,505 comments) says:

    I’m getting really sick of pointing out the obvious on these anti-Islam threads. What is wrong with people who’ve apparently never even read the truism that “those who forget history are condemned to repeat it?” Why don’t intelligent people also see that the conflict we’re seeing today is manufactured and doesn’t need to happen? And I know you won’t take my word for it, will you take the word of an ex-CIA officer who was in charge of the unit charged with finding OBL? Could it possibly be that such a person knows a bit more about Islamic extremism than you? Of course not, that’s totally impossible, isn’t it. You know everything about it, that’s quite obvious from most of the comments above.

    Ex-CIA Agent: America creates its own enemies

    And the same guy with the drop-dead obvious end-state objective, which will start WWIII:

    “Ultimately We Will Be Going To War With Iran If The Israelis Want Us To” Michael Scheuer

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  48. nasska (9,474 comments) says:

    Reid

    Appeasement leads only in one direction & that is certain defeat. Appeasement is all our leaders know or practise. Therefore we have two choices.

    One is all out war with Iran & the rest of the Muslim world.

    The second choice is dhimmitude in our own countries.

    Since living as a Muslim would be worse than death we might as well follow Israel’s gutsy leadership & get it over & done with.

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  49. Reid (15,505 comments) says:

    nasska I’ve never argued for appeasement. I’ve always argued for rational targeting and a realistic threat assessment. Bomb the fuck out of real threats, I don’t give a shit. But what pray tell does one expect a people to do and think, if one prosecutes a war the way its been prosecuted to date?

    Think of it like this. One NZer was involved in 911. So the US invades us, takes out Hamilton, occupies the whole country, conducts raids on people who don’t like what the US did. Kills wedding parties. Etc etc etc etc etc. Sure. Hyperbole, but that’s what’s happened. And it didn’t need to, what with the overwhelming technical superiority possessed by the protagonists.

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  50. thor42 (759 comments) says:

    @Reid says – “those who forget history are condemned to repeat it.”

    Yes. That’s right Reid.
    Five words for you –
    Chamberlain. “Peace in our time.”

    You are under the completely WRONG impression, Reid, that Muslims can be “negotiated with.” They can NOT.
    The have one goal – to establish a worldwide Caliphate.
    They see negotiation as weak. They are **right**.

    By your own admission, Reid, you know nothing about Islam.
    So – why not “take the advice that you are giving to others”, and listen to those who DO.

    Falafulu Fisi posted an excellent link earlier on – this one –
    http://pc.blogspot.co.nz/search?q=war+against+islam
    I particularly agree with these paragraphs –

    “We are at war.

    Like it or not, we, the people of the west, are at war with people—people? with inhuman savages!—who wish to see us bleed, beheaded, destroyed.

    It’s a different war than we’re used to, an asymmetric war — a so-called fourth-generation war — so some folk still don’t recognise we’re even in a state of war (or don’t want to recognise it), but the fact remains we are under sustained attack and have been for some time.
    That’s not scare-mongering, that’s just the way it is. Like it or not, we are at war. We didn’t start this war, but a litany of appeasement by those under attack has fanned its flames, encouraged the attackers and emboldened the growth of violence. ”

    “What will stop the savages? Recognition, for a start, that we have an enemy. That this enemy has a name, a specific religion, and a specific blood-soaked anti-human ideology. That this enemy has incubated this hatred of the west for centuries. That his savagery cannot be successfully resisted with appeasement, hand-holding and clumsy attempts to censor or airbrush away ****those who point out the truth about Islam****, but only by continued resistance to the savagery of it adherents, and understanding they are emboldened by weakness to think they might succeed.”

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  51. nasska (9,474 comments) says:

    Reid

    Okay except for two points:

    1) The ever present risk posed by continuing Muslim immigration. Britain & much of the continent are beyond the point of no return. There is still a chance for the US & NZ but the tipping point can’t be far away. War against Iran will stop the rot & focus our piss weak governments on the problems created so far.

    2) The West does, at this stage, possess ‘overwhelming technical superiority’. This owes much to the stultifying influence of the backward Islamic faith & may not last with Muslims being given free access to employment within the military. In any case all the technology in the world is nearly useless against a brainwashed nutter on a suicide mission.

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  52. Reid (15,505 comments) says:

    No thor, you’re under the wrong impression.

    It’s not necessary to know anything about Muslims and it’s not that I know nothing, I would bet I know more about them than you do, but this is not a religious issue, it’s a human issue, disguised as a religious issue. And I do know humans and I also know history. The west has been hammered with bullshit about Muslims that Goebbals would be proud of. Cite Godwins law if you like, but this is true. The western public is being played like a violin and the Muslim bullshit is precisely as palpable to one who understands propaganda as the lefty bullshit that most above see straight through, except on this issue, they buy into it.

    This guy’s a lefty, so what. Read it, and tell me what’s not true. Even lefties can be correct, sometimes.

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-summer-of-muslim-discontent-its-not-the-amateur-film-stupid/

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  53. mara (639 comments) says:

    thor42, you are totally correct and it frustrates me enormously that the fools who actually make decisions to appease Islam continue to be blinded by ignorance, or worse, by intention.

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  54. Reid (15,505 comments) says:

    nasska war against Iran will start WWIII. I’ve been saying that for years because its obvious and its true. It won’t “stop the rot” it will cause every single Muslim state in the ME to abandon their treaties with Israel and go for its throat. Instantly. That same day. Even sychophant leaderships like Saudi Arabia, Quatar, Dubai, Kuwait won’t be able to hold back the furious anger in their people that a strike will unleash.

    Secondly you’re quite mistaken thinking we couldn’t have prosecuted it differently using technology, we just, apparently, didn’t want to. Draw your own conclusions.

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  55. joana (1,983 comments) says:

    Today’s Sydney morning Herald has an article by a Hizb ut-Tahrir spokesperson..Theey are now calling themselves a political party..It is unbelievable that the Aussies are allowing these people to recruit others..Their goal..world islam..They are really, really dangerous..
    Interesting article on Winds of jihad re what is happening in Burma..
    There is no reasoning with Reid..He has no regard for experience. For him there is only theory.

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  56. nasska (9,474 comments) says:

    Reid

    I accept that there is a risk of WW3 if Iran is wiped out. Certainly the other ME states will tear up any treaties they may be party to but I doubt they are worth bugger all more than the scrap price of the paper they are written on even now.

    The real question is how China & Russia would react. Neither would be oblivious to the real possibility that they will cease to exist if an all out nuclear war results. I reckon that the possibility of the ME becoming a sheet of glass, although very risky, is the best hope we’ve got left.

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  57. thor42 (759 comments) says:

    In fact, it is not necessary to “wipe out” Iran. You don’t need to even get *close* to doing that.
    Two words for you – “electricity, electronics.”

    We have seen the kind of effect that things like Stuxnet can have (and I have no doubt that there are other similar “worms” out there now, doing their thing.)
    Stuxnet did its damage by revving, then slowing down the centrifuges used to purify uranium. Apply the same approach to a power plant and you’ll have some nice juicy power surges flowing through the grid, frying everything connected to it.

    I wonder how long Iran’s leadership can survive if the country has no electricity. No ATMs. You get the picture.

    “There is more than one way to skin a cat.”

    In any case, Iran is not the **real** danger.
    The **real VIPER** is Pakistan.

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  58. nasska (9,474 comments) says:

    thor42

    …”The **real VIPER** is Pakistan”……

    Agreed & that is why Britain is totally beyond all hope. They’ve hit the 5% Muslim mark who are nearly all Pakistani & they might as well accept dhimmitude as inevitable.

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  59. Reid (15,505 comments) says:

    nasska, Russia and China is why WWIII is going to break out. I’ve made that point many times before. Pakistan is not the viper. You know why?

    Because the minute before Iran gets invaded, the US will HAVE to implement its long standing plan to neutralise Pakistan’s nukes. That’s one of the reasons why the US has resisted Israel’s war drums, even now, when the troops are not so much the issue in Iraq as they used to be in Bush’s time.

    I’ve detailed the scenarios many times. Take note that even Bush, Israel’s No 1 friend, never approved an Israeli strike indeed took active steps to prevent it, many times. That say anything to you?

    thor you don’t know much about warfare mate, if you think a virus is useful in a strike operation. It takes too long. EMP can be done and Israel, not the US may do that. But while it will take out the grid, hardened facilities and Iran’s military comms won’t rely on the public grid.

    In addition the minute Israel uses a nuke, Russia and China pay attention, and Israel can’t ignore that.

    As I’ve been saying and keep saying, why is everyone making the assumption the minute Iran gets a nuke she’ll automatically use it? It’s a fallacy. Check my posts on Iran for the last five years for data on that. I simply get sick of repeating the same old counter points to the same old propositions.

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  60. OneTrack (1,953 comments) says:

    Scott Chris @ 10:28 “Sampson did blah blah blah” Are you taking the piss?

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  61. nasska (9,474 comments) says:

    Reid

    Didn’t ‘Revelations’ make reference to the golden crescent?

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  62. Reid (15,505 comments) says:

    nasska:

    http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2012/09/general_debate_16_september_2012.html#comment-1022786

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  63. OneTrack (1,953 comments) says:

    Reid – too lazy to look for your earlier posts but as far as I can see they trying to build a nuclear weapon and their president sounds pretty crazy to me at the best of times. And as this whole thread is talking about, appeasement is the standard engagement model of the west. So, even if Tel Aviv did get wiped out, what would be the response, and from who (Obama?).

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  64. Reid (15,505 comments) says:

    as far as I can see they trying to build a nuclear weapon

    Whose been telling you that OT?

    Israel?

    The western MSM?

    Who else?

    What have the CIA been saying?

    their president sounds pretty crazy to me at the best of times

    Also apply above questions, although I don’t disagree he makes provocative statements. But he’s no fool and if you think he is then look again. And bear in mind Iran hasn’t invaded anyone since the 1700′s.

    as this whole thread is talking about, appeasement is the standard engagement model of the west

    Haven’t you noticed all the wars against Islam OT? Why do you call that appeasement?

    even if Tel Aviv did get wiped out

    Israel has 300+ nukes. Why do you think she wouldn’t use them, before Tel Aviv gets wiped out?

    what would be the response, and from who (Obama?)

    I don’t understand the question. As I said over the weekend, war plans go to hell at first contact. Who knows what would happen. As I also said a few weeks ago, Obama’s a Muslim. I can’t stand him. Nor can I stand Romney, nor Bush 43, nor Clinton, nor Bush 41. The reason for all of that is because just like the Israeli leadership with the sole exception of Rabin and Sharon in his final act before he was “coma’d”, all the US leadership has just like the Israeli leadership, been acting against the best interests of their own people. This is drop dead obvious. Get this straight, please. Just because I say the west is leading us into war for no reason, THIS DOES NOT MEAN I APPROVE OF MUSLIMS OR ISLAM OR ANYTHING ELSE. It is completely mental but typical of someone soaked in propaganda to assume that because someone disapproves of A that THEREFORE that person favours B. That is not the case, it has never been the case. The truth is, I think that Islam suffers from the cultural zeal possessed by its adherents. But that is cultural, not religious. Truth is, a muslim in the ME or in SE Asia is a product first of their inflammable cultural upbringing and secondly of Islam. It’s like kerosene on a fire. But that said, bottom line is they are all HUMAN. They are not robots. And this is what is overlooked by almost every single commenter above. They don’t get it. Yet how can they not? The answer is, they’re all soaked in propaganda. And guess where they got that from, in the last ten years? Do yourselves a favour. Stop watching TV. It helps.

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  65. thor42 (759 comments) says:

    @Reid says – “nasska war against Iran will start WWIII.”.
    Really?

    Iran are Shi’a. The vast majority of the Muslims world is Sunni.
    The Sunni regard the Shi’a as heretics, and vice-versa.
    There is no love at all lost between them.
    Iran despises the Arabs, and the feeling is mutual.

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  66. Tom Jackson (2,231 comments) says:

    So the Muslim empires were shining beacons of knowledge in the Middle Ages? So what? Meaningless seeing as they are still there.

    Yes, the Turks are obviously a pack of drooling, mediaeval loons. We should invade them and confiscate all their delight.

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  67. Reid (15,505 comments) says:

    Iran despises the Arabs

    As I’ve explained many times thor, Iran is viewed by other Muslims as the purist Muslim nation on the planet. Sectarian divides fly out the window if that is attacked, if you’re a Muslim. It doesn’t matter whether or not you understand or agree with it, that is in fact, the case.

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  68. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    The last time Iran had a war was when a USA backed Saddam attacked them. They have not attacked or invaded anyone for centuries. Now lets compare that with the US and see who should have the nukes. Iran is surrounded by countries that are hostile, with a bunch of war mongering US forces right next door. Nuclear armed Israel is threatening to attack at any time. Few countries are as justified in having a nuclear deterrent.

    And no, I am not soft on Muslim extremists and I am appalled at what the Muslims are doing around the globe. But this does not change the facts. The only nuclear armed threat in the Middle East is Israel. A country founded on nothing more than the nonsense scriblings of a desert cult and religious zealotry. They claims exclusive rights to land on the basis that God “chose” them as special. It is beyond belief that we tolerate this and threaten Iran at the same time.

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  69. kowtow (6,685 comments) says:

    tom jackson makes 2 points , one about the “dark” ages in the west and the other about the Turks.

    There is a tie in. The dark ages in the west refer to the collapse of the western Roman empire and the various barbarian invasions. Christian learning survived in the western isles ,Ireland,Iona and missionaries from there helped reestablish Christian learning etc on the mainland. Nothing to do with the rag heads.
    Meanwhile the eastern Roman empire continued based on Constantinople.From here Christian missionaries went north to Russia and that’s why Russia was an Orthodox kingdom (till the Soviets). The Byzantines were being pressured contantly from all sides ,but particularly the various Muslim powers, hence the appeal to the western Pope for knights which resulted in the first crusade.
    The Turks? Well they finally conquered Constantinople in 1453.Until the 1920′s Asia Minor (Turkey) had a significant indigenous Greek orthodox minority. They have since been ethnicly cleansed from what is now referred to as Turkey.
    Some scholars believe that the fall of Constantinople helped hasten the age of the Renaissance in Europe as the great minds of the Byzantine Empire fled west to escape the horde.

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