Anti-semitism and the left

November 1st, 2012 at 9:00 am by David Farrar

Maia at the Hand Mirror blogs:

Last week, Nathan Symington was charged with vandalising Jewish graves with swastikas. Hisfacebook page confirms that he is a nazi. The police may be wrong, he may not have vandalised those graves, but there is enough material on his facebook page to condemn his political beliefs. For the purpose of this post, what matters is that he is a nazi, and that there is a significant chance that he was involved in vadalising those graves. 

Nathan Symington had his endorsed and reinforced at at least two left-wing forums.

Today I’m not talking about anti-semitism generally in NZ (which is something I’ve been writing a post on for ages and I think is super important), but about the way the NZ left tolerates and even reinforces the most vile extreme anti-semitism from unabashed nazis (I really don’t want to be talking about that – because I don’t want it to be true – but given that it is naming that is better than being silent). …

Nathan Symington is facebook friends with Occupy Auckland (Still! Apparently Occupy Auckland isn’t that discriminating). Apparently he also attended some Occupy Auckland events.

That, in itself, is horrendous. 

What is worse is that his nazi beliefs were reinforced at Occupy, and by the Occupy Auckland facebook feed. Anti-semitic conspiracy theories were repeated at both the Occupy Auckland and Occupy Wellington camps. There was a serious push-back in Wellington (this post is part of that effort). But people had to fight really hard to make clear that anti-semitic conspiracy theories weren’t welcome, and they didn’t necessarily win.

I’m glad there were some people at the Occupy camps, who fought back against anti-semitism.

Maia continues:

I think there is a bigger question here, about the way nationalism is used in anti-asset sales material. Anti-privatisation organisation does not need nationalism. The decision to extensively use nationalism is a conscious one that the people involved in the Aotearoa is not for sale campaign have made. I think it was a mistake (and I hope to make a longer post about that one day – but I probably won’t). 

I think people who promoted nationalism in the name of oppposing asset sales should think about how easily Nathan Symington fit into the demo. The person who designed that poster probably never asked “what would a nazi think of this?” – but they probably should have. If we’re using propaganda that reassures nazis of their pre-existing beliefs, and they’re happy to march along – then we’re doing something wrong.

Overt nationalism and xenophobia have ended up with very nasty results in other countries. Railing against Chinese companies hardly makes Chinese NZers feel very welcome here.

Ever since I saw Nathan Symington’s facebook I have felt totally disgusted and depressed about the New Zealand left. That Symington could have felt any support, or reassurance, or validation from his experiences in the left, when (if) he vadalised hte graves – that should never happened.

But even now, even once he’s been arrested, it doesn’t stop. Nathan Symington has marked himself as attending this street party against privatisation. Someone brought this up on the Aotearoa is not for sale facebook page, and asked that he wasn’t invited. Rather than saying “yes not standing with nazis who probably destroyed graves is a priority for us” – those who were running the Aotearoa is not for sale facebook page deleted the thread who brought it up. Apparently that’s how incoherent parts of the left are on anti-semitism – it’s a bigger problem to say ‘hey lets do something abou the nazis’ than for a nazi to attend.

Maybe the media could help out here. When they attend the street party against privatisation, maybe they could interview Mr Symington on his beliefs.

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93 Responses to “Anti-semitism and the left”

  1. The Scorned (719 comments) says:

    Blimey!…..Well said Maia….yes…anti-Semitism runs deep in leftist history. Marx was virulent in his…..and helped inspire a dude called Hitler…

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  2. The Scorned (719 comments) says:

    The merchant Jew was seen as the embodiment of Capitalism…so naturally attracted leftist ire.

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  3. Lance (2,620 comments) says:

    Not to mention this leftist person of note’s quote;
    “George Bernard Shaw; ‘Stop being Jews and start being human beings’”

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  4. rouppe (962 comments) says:

    And its very interesting that all this validation came from the left because it is them (Chris Trotter springs to mind) that always associate Nazi-style groups with right wing political leanings.

    The seem immune to understanding that the Nazi Party started out as a left-wing workers party

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  5. david c (254 comments) says:

    Yeah and you know what else Left wing people hate? Freedom. And blacks. And women. And free speech.

    They pretty much hate everything.

    Because left wing people are NAZIS. And COMMUNISTS.

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  6. tom hunter (4,681 comments) says:

    Ever since I saw Nathan Symington’s facebook I have felt totally disgusted and depressed about the New Zealand left. That Symington could have felt any support, or reassurance, or validation from his experiences in the left, when (if) he vadalised hte graves – that should never happened.

    Fair enough, but one of the two dogs that didn’t bark in this story – and which almost all left-wingers refuse to acknowledge – is that “the left” have engaged in Winston Peters nationalism because the left is intellectually bankrupt and reactionary nowadays.

    They have no idea how to put their “principles” into action or “solve” social problems other than continuing to make government bigger: more departments and/or more money. By the same token they have no arguments that have gained traction against shrinking government – which partial-privatisation does. So they’re reduced to emotive, good-person/bad person appeals across a whole range of issues, and one of those appeals is nationalism.

    The other dog that does not bark in this analysis is that attacks on Jewish graves and the like are a straight-forward extension of the three decade-long campaign of demonising Israel as a way of trying to “persuade” Westerners to their views on the Arab-Israeli issue. Did the left think that producing bullshit excuses about how they’re only talking about “Israelis” or “Zionists” would ever pass the dog-whistle-fail test?

    Well here we are lefties. Own your shit!

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  7. RRM (9,771 comments) says:

    Hmmm… why all the references to “The Left” when this is essentially a story about Occupy Auckland?

    I had no idea that Occupy Auckland represented the entire political left.
    And I had no idea that such gross generalisations and smears came so easily to DPF & the Hand Mirror.

    So I’ve learned two things already today! :-)

    [DPF: Yeah probably should have said hard left or something. Mind you I suspect Maia regards anyone not at Occupy camps as not being true left :-)]

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  8. Kea (11,910 comments) says:

    Here are some facts. Make what you like of them:

    Marx informs modern socialism/communism.

    Marx was a German.

    Marx was a Jew.

    The NAZI were socialists. (National Socialist German Workers Party = Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei )

    The NAZI’s were German.

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  9. scrubone (3,090 comments) says:

    Interesting. I look forward to Mia’s post on how supporting the palestinian cause so often slips into (or refuses to disassociate from) anti-semitism.

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  10. scrubone (3,090 comments) says:

    Marx was a Jew by birth who saw his father abandon his religion for business purposes.

    The Nazis hated the comunists to the point where they had regular pitched battles on the streets.

    Perhaps we could deal with facts for a change instead of playing partisian word games.

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  11. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    God now we’re being taught common sense by a marxist. Is it possible that this government could take a leadership role in anything? WTF does this National government actually do all day?

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  12. Kea (11,910 comments) says:

    They are the “facts” scrubone.

    What you say is also correct.

    It is not that simple. So get off your high horse and do not even think about reconstructing my comments as being anti Jew. I am an atheist, I regard all religion as equally worthless.

    Oh……… and forget the fabricated distinction between socialism and communism. Was the United Soviet Socialist Republic “not” communist ?

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  13. TimG_Oz (925 comments) says:

    Good post.

    I wrote about the anti-semitism in Socialist Aotearoa’s “counter” protest at the time, and I’ll probably write a follow up on this when I get time

    http://timgoz.blogspot.com.au/2012/10/counter-protest-to-racism-by-socialist.html

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  14. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    Socialism. Workers control of the means of production, distribution and exchange and the WORKERS reap the benefits of their labour.
    Communism. “From each according to his ability, to each according to his need”

    Which IS closer to our system?

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  15. nzd.gbp (130 comments) says:

    So basically her argument is that she is SHOCKED and DISGUSTED that nazis and communists share some ideas and now she is disillusioned about it all and needs a quiet place to go and have a cry, a rethink.
    Grow up maia. Just because nazis hate you, doesn’t mean you’re right.

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  16. Lance (2,620 comments) says:

    @scrubone
    The Nazi’s hated the Communists because they were both left wing parties struggling for power.
    Like the Bolsheviks and the other leftist parties in Russia. The Bolsheviks murdered all their opponents.

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  17. Alan Johnstone (1,087 comments) says:

    How about we have a presumption of innocence in a criminal case and try and avoid trial by media and blogsphere ?

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  18. SGA (983 comments) says:

    @kea 9:35am

    You must be trolling, aren’t you? As you must know, the Nazi’s redefined “socialist” in their own peculiar way that differed significantly from Marxism (hence the conflict with the communists). What’s next in the word games – because the Nazi’s had the word “National” in their name therefore the current government are all Nazis?

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  19. Kea (11,910 comments) says:

    Thanks Kevin.

    I guess you consider the USSR was “socialist” NOT communist. (ha bloody ha !)

    It shows how gutless commies are that they make up names such as, Socialist Rebublic…, Democratic Republic…, but never come out and say COMMUNIST.

    It also shows that they know how repulsive their actions are to right minded people, that they choose to publically distance themselves from their own actions and ideology.

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  20. Kea (11,910 comments) says:

    SGA, what defines the NAZI’s as Socialists was not the name, but their policies.

    Go educate yourself and get back to me.

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  21. Alan Johnstone (1,087 comments) says:

    Kea, The USSR never claimed it was a communist state; it always accepted that it fell short of being so.

    Communism was always an aspiration, that they hoped to reach at some point in the future.

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  22. James Stephenson (2,138 comments) says:

    She appears to be no different from the UK’s Grauniad-reading class of lefty, confronted with the reality that it’s the Labour Party whose voters the BNP are attracting.

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  23. scrubone (3,090 comments) says:

    It is not that simple.
    My point exactly.

    So get off your high horse and do not even think about reconstructing my comments as being anti Jew. I am an atheist, I regard all religion as equally worthless.

    I was making a general comment about how these discussions usually go. That you instantly leap to defend yourself like that is amusing and a little disturbing.

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  24. Longknives (4,686 comments) says:

    Well,well,well…When the vandalism first hit the news I posted on Kiwiblog that I thought it rather fishy that ‘Socialist Aoteroa’ were protesting (as they are the same Anti Semites who stand outside the ASB centre screaming abuse at Israeli tennis players)
    What nasty pieces of work these people are- From the Urewera terrorists, to Socialist Aoteroa, to the ‘Occupy’ Idiots, all racist looney weirdos.

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  25. Kea (11,910 comments) says:

    Thanks Alan. You have made my point better than I did.

    All of the attrocities, all of the occupied states across Eastern Europe and Central Asia, all of the murderous and oppressive regimes, all of the 40 + million tortured and murdered, were the result of self-confessed SOCIALISTS.

    You said it first.

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  26. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    Kea I agree with you and others about socialism and communism. My main point though was where is NZ? A state where workers get the benefit of the fruits of their labour or have to give it up to the “neeedy”.

    Why did the USSR fold?

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  27. RRM (9,771 comments) says:

    Kea (508) Says:
    November 1st, 2012 at 10:05 am
    You said it first.

    Dumb fuck, Alan said nothing of the sort.

    If you want to have a discussion, try addressing what people actually say, instead of crating ridiculous straw men.

    You are obviously new here. You will find that those who spew abuse and argue with strawmen tend to be regarded as trolls, and either shouted down or ignored after a while.

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  28. scrubone (3,090 comments) says:

    Oh……… and forget the fabricated distinction between socialism and communism. Was the United Soviet Socialist Republic “not” communist ?

    I always go with what I read in an old encylopedia years back. Comunism is socialism implemented by force of arms.

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  29. Kea (11,910 comments) says:

    I was making a general comment about how these discussions usually go. That you instantly leap to defend yourself like that is amusing and a little disturbing.

    It was a responce to your deliberate distortion of known facts. I got feeling of where you were coming from.

    Keep up the good work defending socialists. How many have you lot murdered and starved to death now? The generally agreed figure is about 150 million, but its still going up daily.

    That is what YOU are attempting to defend.

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  30. Kea (11,910 comments) says:

    Clearly reading is not “your thing” RRM.

    He clearly said the USSR did not consider its self communist.

    Do you agree with that?

    BTW, stick your advice up your arse. I regard applogists for that vile ideology with the contempt they richly deserve. Dont defend that depraved behaviour and claim the moral high ground with me.

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  31. Reid (16,209 comments) says:

    Marx informs modern socialism/communism.

    Marx was a German.

    Marx was a Jew.

    Kea, all of the major communists were Jews, including Trotsky, Lenin and Stalin. And isn’t it interesting that the first thing these bastards did when they took power, was eliminate their fellow Jews, a.k.a. the “intelligentsia.”

    It’s a shame this whole question of what is anti-semitic and what is not, is so widely mis-understood. This misunderstanding by the lefties is just the latest example but the conservatives do it a lot as well such as when they conflate criticism of the state of Israel with anti-semitism. At heart is a collective failure by both sides to understand why Israel was established in the first place.

    The left think that Israel took other people’s land and the right think it re-claimed what had always been theirs and both sides spin off into fantasy along one of those two strands, feverishly analysing modern incidents based on their original hallucination, whichever one it is. It’s a fascinating example of mass-manipulation in plain sight affecting billions of people.

    To free yourself from these manmade fallacies you have to understand Israel’s origins and history: what happened to the Israeli people leading up to, during and after the diaspora; what are the tribal origins of those who populate modern Israel; why have the Rothschilds been so influential and what they have done, starting with the Balfour Declaration; why does the Israeli leadership keep doing counter-productive things and when they finally get a leader who looks promising, he gets killed (Rabin) and what Israel’s role is in the Bible. Once you know all of that you’ll be able to step outside of the mass hallucination that goes on all the time, whenever the anti-semetic social engineering meme raises itself.

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  32. Rufus (648 comments) says:

    Leftists hate Jews…well, I never…

    Kea sees “all religions” as worthless, compared to his hallowed atheism.

    Kea seems to make a distinction between atheism and “religion”.

    Silly Kea.

    Silly Kea also conveniently forgets that the antisemitic Soviet communists were ruled by and large by their firm adherance to their atheistic beliefs. Difficult to separate the two. Which came first, which influenced which? etc.

    Make of that what you will.

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  33. scrubone (3,090 comments) says:

    It was a responce to your deliberate distortion of known facts. I got feeling of where you were coming from.

    Keep up the good work defending socialists. How many have you lot murdered and starved to death now? The generally agreed figure is about 150 million, but its still going up daily.

    Again, your comment is amusing and disturbing. More disturbing this time I have to say.

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  34. Rufus (648 comments) says:

    RRM – you don’t understand Kea.

    Unlike those horrible religious folks, and lefties, Kea is only interested in “common decency and truth”.*

    His very own words.

    *(in others, presumably)

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  35. RRM (9,771 comments) says:

    Kea, Kea, Kea…

    Given that they called themselves The Communist Party of the Soviet Union it seems like he was heading down an elaborate argument of semantics in trying to discuss by how many degrees they were a) socialist, or b) communist, or c) other.

    But if you somehow get out of that, that he was an “apologist” or he was “Defending that sort of ideology” then your comprehension is very short of where it should be, and you need to read more and talk less. ;-)

    Or just talk less. :-)

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  36. Kea (11,910 comments) says:

    Soviet communists did not do what they did to advance atheism Rufus.

    Unlike followers of mythical desert cults.

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  37. SGA (983 comments) says:

    @Reid 10:15am “Kea, all of the major communists were Jews, including Trotsky, Lenin and Stalin.”

    Stalin was Jewish? – I thought he’d trained to be an Russian Orthodox Priest for a short time?

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  38. Kea (11,910 comments) says:

    >Given that they called themselves The Communist Party of the Soviet Union

    United Soviet Socialist Republic… USSR

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  39. scrubone (3,090 comments) says:

    Soviet communists did not do what they did to advance atheism Rufus.

    That would be news to them, and to the Christians they put in the Gulags.

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  40. Kea (11,910 comments) says:

    Again, your comment is amusing and disturbing. More disturbing this time I have to say.

    That “disturbance” your feeling is called a conscience scrubone.

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  41. gump (1,616 comments) says:

    The Nazi party grew out of a revolutionary socialist movement, but it can’t be described as left wing or right wing because it defies such a simple classification.

    The more correct answer is that it took the worst aspects from both ideologies and combined them a unique form of terror.

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  42. scrubone (3,090 comments) says:

    That “disturbance” your feeling is called a conscience scrubone.

    Please, for my amusement, do tell me what you think my position is. Do feel free to include quotes.

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  43. Reid (16,209 comments) says:

    Stalin was Jewish?

    Yes he was. I’d give you links but I’m afraid links aren’t any good on a topic like this – it’s like an AGW debate where both sides can google up some authoritative-looking material but neither side cares what it says because they’ve already made up their own minds.

    So better if you do your own googling to find out for yourself. I tried to paint the broadest possible picture just covering the essentials of what one should really know if one is interested in the truth and not the propagandised view the entire world has today, of both the state of Israel and anti-semitism. But there’s no point in engaging in debate on the veracity or otherwise of any of those elements, because it just becomes as stupid and pointless as debating AGW.

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  44. Lance (2,620 comments) says:

    @Reid
    ‘Stalin was a Jew’

    Bullshit on a stick.
    Crap spread by anti-semetic websites.
    NO his name does not translate as ‘Jew’ in Georgian. Totally incorrect.
    He hated Jews so much he had his advisors profile the ‘ear shape’ of those he was about to meet so he could distinguish Jew from Non-Jew.

    One of his last plots before he died was to kill ALL Jewish doctors in the USSR, fortunately the POS died first.

    BTW Lenin was 1/4 Jewish

    Reid, you need to stop reading Nazi websites for your facts and ideology

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  45. SGA (983 comments) says:

    @Reid 10:36am
    I’ve since done a little checking, I think you are mistaken.

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  46. Rufus (648 comments) says:

    Kea, the Communists did what they did because of their adherence to atheism. Marx, Engel, Lenin et al saw religion as the problem and did all they could to rid their patch of the the world of it. *

    This was not kept secret, but official policy.

    In order to stamp out religious beliefs, they used atheistic propaganda and violently supressed religious practices and public display of belief.

    Read, man. Whole libraries have been written about Communist Russia.

    * That is not to say all atheists are like that. For example, we all know that you yourself are not like that at all. You seek only “common decency and truth (R)”.

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  47. The Scorned (719 comments) says:

    The Nazi/Communist clashes in pre war Germany were akin to scraps between the Mongrel Mob and Black Power over status ,territory and attracting prospects….

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  48. Rufus (648 comments) says:

    Kea – What is a “conscience”?

    Where did it come from?
    How do you know it exists?
    How can you measure it?
    What is its function?
    Why do you appeal to someone else’s conscience?

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  49. scrubone (3,090 comments) says:

    In order to stamp out religious beliefs, they used atheistic propaganda and violently supressed religious practices and public display of belief.

    And they weren’t so stupid to only use straight violence either. “God’s Smuggler” has some good examples of the various tatics used to supress Christianity and publication of Bibles and other materials.

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  50. The Scorned (719 comments) says:

    Rufus: the Communists did what they did because of their adherence to atheism.

    No they didn’t….they couldn’t have as Atheism,the LACK of a belief in a God is a negative position….it embodies nothing…an absence. The Commies did what they did based on positive positions/beliefs based on Marxism and altruism….with power seeking a big part too. The atheism was a bit part of the whole.

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  51. Nostalgia-NZ (5,093 comments) says:

    By crikey. In one bitter pill we go from some alleged spray painter of graves to accusations as to which historical figures may have been Jews and what the make up of the Nazi party was. Did anybody consider the dude might either be innocent as he claims or just some dumbo whose brain was vacuumed out at birth? Or is it far deeper and more complex than that, a given sign or portent of a rising evil. When you look at those nazi dudes they just look like dumb fuck bed wetters lost in the wrong century and who got caught by the cops in record time for a pathetic act of ignorance.

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  52. Reid (16,209 comments) says:

    The Commies did what they did based on positive positions/beliefs based on Marxism and altruism….with power seeking a big part too.

    The only time altruism was ever shown by any Russian commie was when Gorbachev dismantled the whole execrable system. Despite relentless propaganda about how wonderful it all was, or would be, the reality finally caught up to the lies after only three and a half generations. And when you think about it, that’s a pretty poor record on which to base your political philosophy, but this doesn’t stop the Gweens from doing that, does it. The silly mentals.

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  53. Shazzadude (526 comments) says:

    Nathan Symington (who was one of the Romanian orphans resulted from Ceaucescu’s anti-birth control policy) is just some homeless kid-he’s no political figure.

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  54. F E Smith (3,324 comments) says:

    What Maia seems to ignore/forget/not realise is that nationalism was a big part of the left wing narrative for much of the 19th century.  That really only changed, and then only slowly, with Marx’s internationalist outlook. Fascism, as you all will well know, arose out of the breach between the nationalist socialists and the internationalist socialists/communists.  The reason why the two groups hated each other much, and why socialists still use the word fascist as a term of abuse, is because they were essentially competing for the same membership.  Witness the BNP’s economic policies, for example.

    Sadly, anti-semitism has always been a part of the narrative of the left, and it is getting worse today.   Indeed, anti-semtism within the Nazis came about not through its use of facism but out of Hitler’s residence in a very anti-semitic Vienna before World War 1 and his involvement with those we would consider left-wing. 

    One other point is that what the left is very good at doing, of course, is adopting whatever means will attain their goals.  Their collective memory self-editing means that they can use today what they condemned yesterday.  But one thing that they have always had at their disposal is the use of violence, hatred and intolerance.

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  55. ChardonnayGuy (1,197 comments) says:

    Got to say that I don’t line up with much of the rest of the left when it comes to Israel and Palestinian concerns. For one thing, as a gay man, I’m supposed to blithely ignore the fact that Palestinian Hezbollah, Hamas and Fatah victimise, intimidate, harrass and kill LGBT Palestinians, forcing them to flee across the border to Israel…which is the only Middle Eastern state to have decriminalised male homosexuality*, have antidiscrimination laws and even partial adoption reform (as opposed to New Zealand). Or, for that matter, that ‘anti-Zionists’ have a disgusting habit of overlooking the recycling of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion amongst Islamist groups? Or the murderous homophobic executions within Mahmoud Ahmadinejad’s Iran?

    Granted, Israel’s not perfect, given its fundamentalist Haredim and Hasidim ultra-Orthodox Jews, but hey, secular Jews dislike them even more in that country. Suffice to say though that if there was an LGFT Friends of Israel, I’d join it.

    *Lebanon and Jordan are close, though…

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  56. Lance (2,620 comments) says:

    @ChardonnayGuy

    I applaud your rationality re Israel.

    I lived in Israel for a while. Unlike the surrounding states one could see non-violent peace protests (not being shot at or tear gassed) by both Arabs and Jews. It was a secular nation (avoid Jersalem though) and women were treated equally.

    I never even had the shits there once in 6 months. Definitely unlike the surrounding states I visited.

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  57. gopolks (102 comments) says:

    Well done to Maia for her piece at the hand mirror. Every so often that site makes good points, unfortunately blogger such as Anjum Rahman ruin that site with their bigoted anti west pieces.

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  58. Kea (11,910 comments) says:

    One thing that is often overlooked is that many people identify with being Jewish in a cultural sense, not a religious one. They may actually be atheists, or their view of god may differ from the scriptural one. We must be careful trying to lump, Israeli, Jew, Zionist ect all into one melting pot.

    Actually Jewish folk are well known for their diverse views. There is a joke, along the lines, that 2 Rabbis discussing something will have 3 different points of view.

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  59. Tom Jackson (2,553 comments) says:

    Once you rightly remove criticism of Israel’s government from the category of anti Semitic attitudes, what remains is about as popular as chlamydia. People dont care about swastikas next to John Key’s name (although they probably should) because they think he is acting like a Nazi, not because they approve of Nazism.

    We don’t need this American style whining about anti semitism in NZ. Genuine anti semitism has been a spent force for years. What happens in the US is a small section of the Jewish community whining about how bad they have it due to prejudice against Jews. Well, if there is widespread prejudice against Jews in the US, it is about as effective as a wet sock at keeping Jewish people as second class citizens. If you want to know what prejudice is like, try being black, for gods sake.

    [DPF: You think anti-semitism is a spent force? I'd love to live in your world. ]

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  60. Kea (11,910 comments) says:

    Fascism, as you all will well know, arose

    No, actually I don’t know. Where and when did Fascism arise ?

    (Don’t bother saying the NAZI’s. Their policys and name were clearly socialist)

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  61. F E Smith (3,324 comments) says:

    Once you rightly remove criticism of Israel’s government from the category of anti Semitic attitudes, what remains is about as popular as chlamydia….

    Genuine anti semitism has been a spent force for years.

    That, Tom Jackson, is ignorant rubbish. 

    Anti-semitism is on the rise in Europe and the UK once again. Indeed, most hate crimes in the UK are anti-semitic.  It is dominant throughout the Middle East and North Africa. In the USA there is the strange dichotomy of the majority of Jews being left wing countered by the left wing’s general distate for, and distrust of, Jews (all you have to do to realise that is see some of the trash that Occupy Wall Street was putting out). 

     

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  62. F E Smith (3,324 comments) says:

    No, actually I don’t know. Where and when did Fascism arise ?

    What we identify as fascism arose primarily in Italy in the late 1910s.  Mussolini was a prominent socialist leader.  It had earlier ideological forbears, again much of it Italian, but pretty much all of those were variations of socialism, as was fascism.

    (Don’t bother saying the NAZI’s. Their policys and name were clearly socialist)

    That doesn’t make sense.  Are you arguing that fascism is not a form of socialism?  And the word Nazi should not be all capitals.

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  63. Tom Jackson (2,553 comments) says:

    That, Tom Jackson, is ignorant rubbish.

    Listen to the fool’s reproach! it is a kingly title!

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  64. Seán (397 comments) says:

    Oh dear, what a “non-post” this is from DPF. no substance at all, merely loose connections based on assumptions at best.

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  65. Lance (2,620 comments) says:

    @Sean
    So this “non-post” is graced by your non-comment

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  66. Seán (397 comments) says:

    Seems the “discarding Nazi nutter” take is ignored based on political persuasion. This doesn’t help integrity.

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  67. F E Smith (3,324 comments) says:

    Listen to the fool’s reproach! it is a kingly title!

    So rather than argue the point, you instead merely call me a fool?  Yeah, real grown up of you.

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  68. Seán (397 comments) says:

    @ Lance – maybe so but my point is that DPF’s rationale is based more on the political spectrum point and less on facts and logic as he usually is inclined to do. Hence the “non-post” comment

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  69. hj (6,826 comments) says:

    Overt nationalism and xenophobia have ended up with very nasty results in other countries. Railing against Chinese companies hardly makes Chinese NZers feel very welcome here.
    ………..

    It’s also nasty to be priced out of your own country just so the National Party’s mates in the Property Council can underpin their inflated land values. And it’s nasty not to consult the public when a government unilaterally decides that New Zealands population is too “monocultural” and booring and they owe it to the rest of the world to share.
    http://www.gmi.co.nz/news/514/labours-third-world-solution.aspx
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/4622459/Government-policies-blamed-for-house-prices

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  70. hj (6,826 comments) says:

    The National Party does not need nationalism it should shed the pretence of acting in the interests of the citizens within the geographical entity known as New Zealand and instead champion the rights of those with land (the Properte People to trade with the highest bidder from anywhere with out hinderence from those “not standing”. etc…. you get the picture.

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  71. thedavincimode (6,606 comments) says:

    Reid

    Why are you insistent on confusing this robust and enjoyable debate by looking beyond the superficial?

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  72. Bob R (1,358 comments) says:

    ***I think there is a bigger question here, about the way nationalism is used in anti-asset sales material. Anti-privatisation organisation does not need nationalism. The decision to extensively use nationalism is a conscious one that the people involved in the Aotearoa is not for sale campaign have made. I think it was a mistake ***

    Then they’re ignoring human nature – is there anything wrong with the kind of nationalism expoused by say the Dalai Lama or Israel?

    ***rt nationalism and xenophobia have ended up with very nasty results in other countries.***

    So does DPF think Israel should open its borders?

    [DPF: The borders are open. I've been to Israel. You can drive into Syrian cities and vice-versa. They only have border walls in places where it is necessary for security reasons - that is a small portion of their overall borders.]

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  73. Bob R (1,358 comments) says:

    ***Nathan Symington is facebook friends with Occupy Auckland (Still! Apparently Occupy Auckland isn’t that discriminating). Apparently he also attended some Occupy Auckland events.

    That, in itself, is horrendous.***

    There were probably Marxists and Communists attending too – does Maia at the Hand Mirror know how many people have been murdered as a result of those ideologies?

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  74. Reid (16,209 comments) says:

    dvm I don’t know, I just can’t help it.

    Are you arguing that fascism is not a form of socialism?

    It isn’t. Facism is mixing corporations with the state. Facism is why the Todt Organisation got so involved in all the Civil Engineering projects throughout occupied Europe using slave labour provided by the state and facism is why all the German (and some American) industrialists funded Hitler into office and facism is why the communists took over all the state factories and farms.

    Facism thus transcends left and right political perspectives because you can argue that both Nazi Germany and the USSR were facist states. I think you also need to consider whether it makes any sense to label either leader, Hitler or Stalin, either a lefty or a conservative. I mean Hitler claimed he was doing it for the workers, but that didn’t make it so, same as Stalin claiming he was doing it for the same reason didn’t make that so either.

    Political camouflage litters history and causes conflation after conflation. It’s a shame those caught up in it never seem to notice their intellectual predicament.

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  75. scrubone (3,090 comments) says:

    Bob R: Mia casually mentioned she had a comunist friend back when she had her previous blog.

    She also talked about killing children as a legitimate form of birth control.

    She is, in short, about as far left as you can go.

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  76. scrubone (3,090 comments) says:

    So, Reid, what you are saying is that socialism (and nazism) are forms of fascism.

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  77. Kea (11,910 comments) says:

    most hate crimes in the UK are anti-semitic.

    Tut tut tut Mr Smith. You should not tell lies like that. There are far more crimes by Muslims against the indigenous British, as but one example.

    >And the word Nazi should not be all capitals.

    tHaNkS foR tHE gRammeR leSSoN.

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  78. Reid (16,209 comments) says:

    That’s right scrubone and this is not an ideological question it’s an objective one. To what extent at any given moment does a state both control and use corporations to do their bidding and vice versa. Most nations do this in wartime but not before and only then, out of necessity, other nations do this as part of the lead up to a war. It’s the breaking of the arms-length open bidding into the marketplace toward a relationship based on cronyism that marks the delineation.

    Clearly in China for example, this remains an open question but the process is devolving at present, from what I can see. Long may it continue that way.

    But I only said that because anti-semitism is wrongly in my view, often mis-analysed in the same way. The facism-left-right political conflation is only an example of the same dynamic in a different arena, where anti-semitism is often analysed along left-right lines and I think if you only look at it along those lines, you’ll miss a lot of incredibly critical aspects to it, as well as making a factual error in assessing the vehemence or otherwise of any particular perceived manifestation of it.

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  79. gump (1,616 comments) says:

    @Kea

    I think that you meant to say “grammar”.

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  80. scrubone (3,090 comments) says:

    gump: so I guess that makes you an anti-nazi grammar nazi :D

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  81. Mark (1,471 comments) says:

    The logic according to Maia

    Symington is an anti Semite – Symington is a Facebook friend of Occupy Auckland – Occupy Auckland must be anti Semite – Occupy Auckland is a left wing organisation – therefore all left wing organisations are anti Semite and support Symington.

    Brilliant!! :)

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  82. Kea (11,910 comments) says:

    Why do people get so hysterical about the thought someone “may” be an anti-Semite ?

    There are far more people anti-Muslim or anti-Christian. Yet we don’t see the same reaction from the KB community when they are criticised. (Yes I know about the war. I also know that most of the people who died in it were Christians. So don’t bother trotting that one out.)

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  83. DJP6-25 (1,356 comments) says:

    The Scorned 10:42 am. Precisely. It was like two first cousins fighting.

    cheers

    David Prosser

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  84. Kea (11,910 comments) says:

    gump (352) Says:

    November 1st, 2012 at 1:52 pm
    @Kea

    I think that you meant to say “grammar”.

    Jawhol ! Herr Obersturmbannführer

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  85. RRM (9,771 comments) says:

    There is too much anti-semitism on the internet!!

    Then when you try to talk about how the Maoris and the Muslims are ruining everything, some politically correct leftist wowser starts crying “racist!”

    It’s just not fair… :cry:

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  86. Yoza (1,774 comments) says:

    It is incredible the crazy shit that gets continually recycled on Kiwiblog.

    The Nazis were supported by the wealthy in Germany, as were the Fascists in Italy and Spain, as a bulwark against socialism. The crazed dogs slipped their leashes and their corporate sponsors have been trying to rewrite history ever since.

    The continual attempts to pass of Nazism and Fascism as socialist is pitiful and testament to the feeble grasp on reality so many Kiwiblog commentators possess.

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  87. Reid (16,209 comments) says:

    The Nazis were supported by the wealthy in Germany

    They were also supported by the workers Yoza. How do you explain that?

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  88. Yoza (1,774 comments) says:

    “They were also supported by the workers Yoza. How do you explain that?”

    There are a lot of workers in the US who support the Republican party, it does not necessarily follow that the Republican party pursues policies which benefit workers or could be defined as a socialist party. The propaganda system that both the US Republicans now and the Nazis then utilised prey on the ignorant. The Tea Party movement is a modern example of how the very rich can buy the appearance of a political movement which if its policies were taken to their ultimate conclusion would have a devastating effect on its members. Hitler outlawed trade unions abolished the right to strike and arrested labour leaders, considering socialism is workers owning the means of production, distribution, and exchange, Hitler’s actions can only be considered the polar opposite of what socialism stands for.

    I would be interested if anyone could demonstrate how Hitler operated a socialist system, other than the pathetic observation that because the Nazis called themselves National Socialists they were socialists, these same people must also believe the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea is a democracy because they use the word democratic to describe themselves.

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  89. Reid (16,209 comments) says:

    The propaganda system that both the US Republicans now and the Nazis then utilised prey on the ignorant.

    And you don’t think lefties use “propaganda systems” Yoza?

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  90. joana (1,983 comments) says:

    Anti semitism is on the rise everywhere..It is on the rise everywhere Muslims are allowed to settle and flourish..It is part of the Koran.

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  91. wat dabney (3,755 comments) says:

    The Nazi party grew out of a revolutionary socialist movement, but it can’t be described as left wing or right wing because it defies such a simple classification.
    The more correct answer is that it took the worst aspects from both ideologies and combined them a unique form of terror.

    This is plain wrong. Nazism was just another form of collectivism like Socialism and Communism. It was an entirely leftist movement, as was Italian Fascism. In pre-war Germany, for example, people moved easily from the Communist Party to the National Socialist (Nazi) Party; there being very little to distinguish them.

    The left has always had strong nationalistic and racist components, and labour unions have a long and ugly history of racism.

    Nor does the right have any “ideology.” It is simply the recognition of individual liberty; the absence of coercion.

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  92. TimG_Oz (925 comments) says:

    Three days late, but I got around to writing my piece:

    http://timgoz.blogspot.com.au/2012/11/antisemitism-and-left-common-ground-of.html

    Ideologically the Socialists and Nazis have nothing in common.

    But they do share one thing – they both carry and exercise Baseless Hatred.

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  93. ChardonnayGuy (1,197 comments) says:

    If I may…I think the answer to this may be found within the opportunist and foetid corners of neofascist sectarianism and ideological schism. One of their many interneccine faultlines is a “Third Way” or Strasserite neofascist strategy which advocates soft focus and vaseline-softened photo opportunities on outreach tactics, such as appealing to opposition to globalisation, brown environmentalism and emphasising anti-corporate capitalist stances to make such neofascists more “attractive” to those ignorant of their actual ghastly ideological antecedents. This fellow seems to be one of that provenance.

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