Obama on Israel

November 19th, 2012 at 11:00 am by David Farrar

The Washington Post reports:

At the start of a three-day trip to Southeast Asia, President Obama said at a news conference in Bangkok on Sunday that has a right to defend itself.

“There’s no country on Earth would tolerate missiles raining down on its citizens from outside it’s borders. So we are fully supportive of Israel’s right to defend itself from missiles landing on people’s homes and workplaces and potentially killing civilians. And we will continue to support Israel’s right to defend itself.”

It’s funny how weeks and weeks of missile attacks on Israel rarely warrant even a minor news story. It is only when they strike back that the world’s media give it 24/7 coverage!

But, the president added, “we are actively working with all the parties in the region to see if we can end those missiles being fired without further escalation of violence in the region.”

It is sad when people die on either side. I note however that for Hamas their definition of success is killing as many civilians as possible while for Israel, it is killing as few civilians as possible.

No doubt many from the safety of their homes, advocate that Israel should do nothing about rocket attacks on them from . Maybe they believe that they threaten only a few homes near the border. Well thanks to the Israeli Embassy, here is some perspective.

A peace settlement on 1967 borders is only possible if there is actual peace for land. But when the land already given up is used to launch thousands of rocket attacks on civilians, then it hardly provides much of an incentive to give up even more land.

 

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181 Responses to “Obama on Israel”

  1. TimG_Oz (862 comments) says:

    As always, great post David. I’ll be back after work to answer your conspiracy theories and twisted logic messages of hate

    Peace to all.

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  2. Graeme Edgeler (3,289 comments) says:

    There’s no country on Earth would tolerate missiles raining down on its citizens from outside it’s borders.

    Plenty of countries appear to tolerate US drone strikes without bombing the US in response.

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  3. berend (1,709 comments) says:

    Funny how mentioned Jew gets even Graeme into a frizz.

    Please Grame, enlighten us: how many US drone strikes are targeting CIVILIANS.

    I’ve spelled the word in upper case in case you didn’t get the difference.

    And secondly, you are wilfully ignore that no matter what a Jew does, they can give up their entire country, and it wouldn’t matter. Because it doesn’t matter if they are communist, socialist, or capitalist, religious or atheist, a Jew has one big problem and that’s he’s a Jew. That’s enough to be killed. Just browse the IDF facebook page comments for a while. Or perhaps it’s simply more than you want to know.

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  4. Alan Johnstone (1,087 comments) says:

    Israel doesn’t want peace, why would it? It won and it holds the prizes. Pretending it does, but refusing to even engage in discussion around the status of Jerusalem or the rights for refugees to return, is just sickening political theatere.

    The Palestinians don’t really want a peace settlement that leaves a viable Israeli state either.

    Hence we have conflict.

    The Palestinian insurgency poses no existential threat to the Israeli state.

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  5. berend (1,709 comments) says:

    Alan, you don’t think that stop raining rockets in civilians would probably be a first start?

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  6. iMP (2,385 comments) says:

    Wait till the Iranians get a nuclear device.

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  7. scrubone (3,099 comments) says:

    Alan must be so mad that Israel has signed peace treaties with Jordan and Egypt.

    I await his convoluted explanation of how that still fits his conspiracy theory.

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  8. unaha-closp (1,165 comments) says:

    Please Grame, enlighten us: how many US drone strikes are targeting CIVILIANS.

    Somewhere between 10% and 40% of them.

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  9. RRM (9,924 comments) says:

    It’s when comfortable people living in that twelve-mile radius of Wellington start making comments about how those in the war zone carrying their dead babies in their arms “have no-one to blame but themselves” or “are just a propaganda exercise” that my blood really boils. There’s something quite sick (IMHO) in the way people here pick sides in this ongoing war, as though they are supporting Chelsea or Man U. or something.

    It’s amazing how parenthood makes these news stories more real to you… my little boy has no idea how lucky he is to have been born in New Zealand, and I think I’m only just starting to really appreciate it myself…

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  10. Graeme Edgeler (3,289 comments) says:

    berend – I’m not making a claim about the Israeli/Palestinian mess. I’m simply calling Obama on an obvious lie.

    As for US drone strikes, my understanding is that very few are aimed at military targets.

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  11. Elaycee (4,392 comments) says:

    Alan Johnstone:

    Israel doesn’t want peace, why would it? It won and it holds the prizes. Pretending it does, but refusing to even engage in discussion around the status of Jerusalem or the rights for refugees to return, is just sickening political theatere [sic].

    What bollocks. Until very recently, Israel had been extremely tolerant of the actions of these terrorists lobbing ordnance over the border into the sovereign state of Israel. But now the IDF has decided to defend itself, the MSM is all shock and horror – even repeating staged scenes as if they were somehow fact.

    Its long overdue that the militants and terrorists in the ME realised that Israel will never be defeated. Actually, its also long overdue that those amongst us who defend the Hamas terrorists, also realised that Israel will never be pushed off their sovereign land and that they have every right to defend their own people.

    I agree with the obvious comment: If the terrorists stopped lobbing rockets into Israel, then there is no need for retaliation.

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  12. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    Wait till the Iranians get a nuclear device.

    They will not nuke Israel. I also doubt Israel will attack Iran.

    Things are often not as bad as the media tell us.

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  13. BroadArrow (6 comments) says:

    It’s also worth noting that as far as Gaza is concerned Israel already has withdrawn to pre-1967 borders and still the Hamas government continues terrorist attacks on Israel. We can take them at the word that they’ll continue their terror attacks until there isn’t a Jew left in the middle east. If this is what the anti-Israelis consider a partner for peace I’d hate to see what they consider an enemy!

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  14. berend (1,709 comments) says:

    Kea: They will not nuke Israel.

    I suppose we will just take your word for it. Just like Hitler was overpromising obviously. Never ever would he actually do anything to the Jews.

    But I have a different strategy: if someone publicly announces their intention is to wipe you off the map, you better take him at his word and act accordingly.

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  15. campit (467 comments) says:

    I note however that for Hamas their definition of success is killing as many civilians as possible while for Israel, it is killing as few civilians as possible.

    Seems like Israel isn’t meeting their success criteria then.

    [DPF: Nope, sadly few wars can avoid civilian casualities. But the difference between intentions is massive and important.]

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  16. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    The Palestinians need to stop the rocket attacks, or the Israelis will do it for them. These attacks have been tolerated for too long and stronger measures are now required. If the civilians don’t like having their homes destroyed, or being killed, then they need to speak out as a people to stop the attacks.

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  17. berend (1,709 comments) says:

    campit, please enlighten us: what side does fire rockets next to playgrounds?

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  18. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    I suppose we will just take your word for it. Just like Hitler was overpromising obviously. Never ever would he actually do anything to the Jews.

    But I have a different strategy: if someone publicly announces their intention is to wipe you off the map, you better take him at his word and act accordingly.

    berend, President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad did not say he would “wipe Israel off the map”

    What has Hitler and the Jews got to do with Iran and the Israelis ? Trotting out the holocaust story does nothing to support your argument.

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/israel-wiped-off-the-map-the-rumor-of-the-century-fabricated-by-the-us-media-to-justify-an-all-out-war-on-iran/21188

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  19. Lance (2,655 comments) says:

    Yes Kea, you are right
    Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is the voice of reason and stability in a volatile region.

    “The wave of the Islamic revolution will soon reach the entire world.”
    ” Anybody who recognizes Israel will burn in the fire of the Islamic nation’s fury.”
    “They (the Western powers) launched the myth of the Holocaust. They lied, they put on a show and then they support the Jews.”
    “The supreme guide (Ayatollah Ali Khamenei) himself has said in a fatwa that the wearing of ties or bow ties is not permitted.”
    “Is it possible for us to witness a world without America and Zionism? You should know that this slogan, this goal, can certainly be achieved.”

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  20. Reid (16,471 comments) says:

    Israel doesn’t want peace, why would it?

    That’s right Alan. There are reports the leader they killed was that day to pass on a further draft of a treaty currently being negotiated between Hamas and Israel. As I said yesterday an important signal was to level the Hamas HQ building at night when they knew it was empty: i.e. we’re not going to slaughter you all, was the message.

    I note however that for Hamas their definition of success is killing as many civilians as possible while for Israel, it is killing as few civilians as possible.

    I’m sure if Hamas had the capability to get within range of military targets with its technology it would take them on, but who cares anyway whose doing what. Both sides are wrong to do anything other than talk it through peaceably but if Israel wasn’t so disproportionate this endless loop wouldn’t keep happening. Last election cycle 4 years ago Operation Cast Lead killed 1440 civilians. How many will Operation Pillar of Cloud have killed when the dust settles? Who cares how many terrorists get killed because der, those numbers are immediately replaced already by the increase in desire by all the young men and some women too I bet, to die for the cause? Don’t people realise the ones killed have already been replaced by new recruits who weren’t waiting in the ranks before this new provocation happened? What about that is hard to understand. And the provocation, which is not necessary in order to achieve the objective, is the complete and OTT utter disproportionality of it. If it wasn’t so disproportionate it wouldn’t be a problem.

    And Israel has the capability to be truly surgical if they wish to be, but they chose not to be. I’ve explained why over the last few days.

    So why do the Israeli leadership keep doing precisely what breeds terrorism, year after year, decade after decade? To keep it alive in the electorate’s head. Why? Why for this January’s elections of course. Crikey.

    So Israel’s leaders once again wield shrapnel, high explosives and soon to be flying bullets, in their quest to be re-elected. Just like they did 4 years ago. And yet most of the western world cry tears for Israel. It’s like some mass hallucination to me. It’s like the white guilt that some wet liberals here feel about what we did to the Maori, the fact that we weren’t there to stop it. I’ve never understood feeling guilty for that and I’ve never understood feeling guilty for the holocaust either. But that’s the only reason I can come up with for why so many western people witness this history as it happens and yet still, despite the logic and the historical facts, still support the nation with all the resources, all the options, all the choices and all the power, as it once again belligerently pursues counter-productive tactics in order to “solve” the problem that everyone wants solved. Tactics which won’t work in a million years. And which everybody knows that. Yet still the leeming cry for Israel.

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  21. cha (4,019 comments) says:

    Andrew Sullivan’s update of an earlier post with a reader sounds off in some ways explains the reasoning behind the continued rocket attacks on Israel.


    Look, I’m no defender of Israel, by any means. Their illegal expansion of settlements and what they did to Gaza four years is abhorrent. But what the hell is Hamas thinking firing rockets at Jerusalem? Netanyahu has been waiting for an excuse to bomb Gaza City back to the stone age for years now, and it looks like he might have it. And he has the means to do it. Besides the humanitarian catastrophe it would be, I fear bombing Gaza would be an excuse for a larger Arab / Iranian – Israeli war. Here’s hoping that cooler heads prevail.

    Agreed on all counts. Another writes:

    Now, let us step back a moment and examine another instant in history. It is Algeria, 1955. The country has been ruled for over a century by the French, who consider it an integral part of their country. The northern parts of the nation have been heavily settled by French citizens, who live in what is for all intents and purposes an outpost of Europe. They live under French civil law, and are highly affluent and economically successful. The other 8 million Muslim Algerians live under military law. Their economic situation is quite the opposite. By now, a pro-independence group called the National Liberation Front (FLN) is leading an insurrection. However, they have had little success in gaining either widespread support or military victory. To remedy this, they would put through a terrifying cold-blooded plan. On August 20th, FLN members enter the seaside town of Philippeville and proceed to massacre the inhabitants. Over a hundred people, mostly Europeans, were brutally tortured and killed. The victims included both babies and grandmothers.

    Now, why did the FLN do this? Was it born from their insatiable lust for French blood? No. In fact, until then FLN standing orders had been to avoid killing Europeans. The FLN committed what would become known as the Philippevile Massacre because they knew it would goad the French into a specific action. And they were right. Over the following weeks, French soldiers, police, and settlers would kill hundreds of Algerians in retribution. The death toll might have been as high as 12,000, most who had nothing to do with the Philippevile Massacre. This did more to boost the FLN cause than any propaganda poster or speech they could ever have made. It showed the Algerians that their lives meant nothing to the French authorities, that the life of a European was worth the lives of hundreds of Muslims. The FLN had successfully manipulated the (understandable) horror and outrage of the French into the keys to victory.

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  22. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    Yes Lance, I am well aware of the inaccurate translations and out of context quotes attributed to the peace loving people of Iran.

    I say “peace loving” as it has been over 300 years since they attacked anyone. That is more than the US can say, I think we all agree !

    The last time they had a war it was when a US backed Iraq attacked them.

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  23. Lance (2,655 comments) says:

    @Kea
    So those quotes are all perfectly innocent?

    You are so full of shit.

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  24. barry (1,317 comments) says:

    There is little doubt that that both sides of this issue are infected with a large dose of insanity.

    Although on first glance one asks “what the fuck are these idiots in the Gaza doing firing rockets into israel (or anywhere else for that matter)” but I recall visiting Israel some years ago and was amazed at the attitude of some israeli’s – “the world just doesnt understand us” – ie; we are right.

    If it wasnt for the obvious other lunatics in the area (iran and and – well almost everyone from Morocco across to India) then one would be tempted to say to Israel and the Gaza – “well guys – go knock yourselves out” and let them get on with elliminating each other.

    But Im affraid that i see the conflict is simply another step towards someone using nulcear weapons – and thats Iran – well actually an Iranian supplied weapon to a group of lunatics like the Hamas or the Hesbola or the Taliban or some group of religious lunatics who think there are endless supplies of virgins waiting for them in heaven…….

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  25. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    Just stick with the facts Lance, not all the heated language and over hyped news reports. Iran has been around a very very long time. We have considerable history to judge them upon. They may have some strange ways, but they are civilised decent people.

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  26. Alan Johnstone (1,087 comments) says:

    “Alan, you don’t think that stop raining rockets in civilians would probably be a first start?”

    A Palestinian may say, don’t you think stopping stopping the illegal occupation of land would be a first start ? No moral high ground on either side.

    “Alan must be so mad that Israel has signed peace treaties with Jordan and Egypt. I await his convoluted explanation of how that still fits his conspiracy theory.”

    I’m flummoxed by this; my point was Israel doesn’t want peace within the former British mandate of Palestine; I thought that was implicit given it’s what we’re discussing, not the wider Arab / Israeli conflict. Clearly not. What possible benefit is there to Israel in a settlement on the 1948 or 1967 borders? Any such deal involves very large concessions on their part, with the Palestinian side having nothing to offer in return, why would they? If I headed the Israeli state, I’d be happy for the present situation to continue forever.

    The Palestinian capacity to strike is minimal in strategic terms, every day “facts on the ground” are created via the settlement building process. Israel has won and is entrenching its situation every day.

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  27. Reid (16,471 comments) says:

    But Im affraid that i see the conflict is simply another step towards someone using nulcear weapons – and thats Iran – well actually an Iranian supplied weapon to a group of lunatics like the Hamas or the Hesbola or the Taliban or some group of religious lunatics who think there are endless supplies of virgins waiting for them in heaven…….

    barry that’s a remarkably obtuse projection of what Iran would do with a nuke.

    Iranians are known in the ME to be a very calculating people. Everything they do is calculated. I mean what is more OTT to you?

    The Iranian President using words, or the Israeli’s using high explosives for election purposes?

    Iran is known as the purist holiest examplar of Islam throughout the Muslim world. It is. Ask any Muslim. That gives it authority and responsibility in the Muslim world. A bit like the Head Prefect. Right now what Israel is doing to fellow Muslims is being read by Iran as a message to them, as much as it is to Hamas.

    It’s possible bombing the empty Hamas HQ was a message to Iran that Hezbollah is off the agenda, this is not about Lebanon, as much as it was to the Hamas leadership. Who knows, many of the Hamas leadership may still be taken out by the ground forces.

    But Iran isn’t going to attack Israel over this. I mean why?

    Don’t make the mistake of hallucinating as many seem to that just because Iran is a Muslim country that therefore she’s automatically going to act like some maddened emotionally inflamed fanatic, because that’s just dumb, if you really think a country of 170 million naturally calculating people, would behave like that.

    I mean it says a lot for the power of propaganda doesn’t it that we’ve had about 20 years of “muslims are all terrorists” subliminal propaganda (that most of you haven’t noticed) to teach some of us that muslim countries really do in fact behave like that and so many intelligent people now after only about 20 years of it, really do now analyse Iran on that basis.

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  28. Lance (2,655 comments) says:

    @Kea
    You are equating the present leader with a stable Iran and therefore he is to be seen as the voice of reason.
    That is false logic at best.
    My personal view he is a complete whack job but is kept in line by those not off their meds.

    I would point out the mass public hangings and brutal suppression of any dissent but I am sure you think that is all western propaganda as well.

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  29. ross69 (3,652 comments) says:

    > while for Israel, it is killing as few civilians as possible

    There, ladies and gentlemen, is the next Tui ad.

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  30. cha (4,019 comments) says:

    Tablet on the Sunni-Shia schism: Saudis’ Proxy War Against Iran

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  31. Mary Rose (393 comments) says:

    kea>I say “peace loving” as it has been over 300 years since they attacked anyone.

    So Iran isn’t supplying Hamas with its rockets, for a proxy war?
    Where are they getting all these longer-range rockets from then? (Or the parts to build them, or the money to buy the parts).

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  32. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    I am not sure Mary. It is not hard to buy weapons on the international market. If you have the money, the sellers will come.

    I do know that the US supplies Israel, supplied Saddam, the Taliban and many many others, in a proxy war.

    Whats with all the double standards?

    Your a product of media hype and propoganda. Some of us see through that.

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  33. Reid (16,471 comments) says:

    Where are they getting all these longer-range rockets from then? (Or the parts to build them, or the money to buy the parts).

    Mary Rose this video at the end shows you what the rockets are:

    http://edition.cnn.com/video/?hpt=hp_t1#/video/bestoftv/2012/11/16/exp-tsr-foreman-virtual-fire-power.cnn

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  34. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    Actually, come to think of it, maybe the rockets are paid for by Saudi Arabia. They are a strict Muslim country with Sharia law. They finance radical mosques all over the world, to the tune of many millions of dollars. It is where Bin Laden came from, though the US attacked Afghanistan instead !

    Saudi Arabia is also great mates with the USA, but are not so keen on the peace loving people of Iran.

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  35. Mary Rose (393 comments) says:

    Kea, it must be lonely up there, above the rest of us mere mortals who can’t see through things the way you can.

    I am well aware the US has fought proxy wars a-plenty.

    I never claimed virtue for any side in this conflict.

    I merely questioned your perception of Iran never having attacked anyone.
    If they have done so by proxy, then you are wrong.

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  36. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    Mary, I largely agree with your central point.

    Do you have any evidence to support your theory or is it just supposition ?

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  37. Steve Wrathall (284 comments) says:

    “…it has been over 300 years since [Iran] attacked anyone.”

    So sponsorship of terrorism throughout the ME is not an act of agression? What about putting a bounty on the head of a British writer because he satirised the paedo founder of their ideology? Or attacking an embassy-the sovereign terrritory of another state?

    If this odious theocracy feels emboldened to behave this way, how much more apalling will its behavior be if it gets the bomb? That must not be allowed to happen.

    http://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?fbid=10151115130947466&set=a.10150173316927466.299538.696207465&type=1&theater

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  38. Alan Johnstone (1,087 comments) says:

    Of course there is a power struggle going on right now between the Saudis and Iranians; for many years the Saudis (and the Americans pre ’91) propped up Saddam as a counterweight to Iran. 2003 changed all that and vastly improved the Iranian strategic position, Iraq went form being an enemy to something close to a client state.

    This clearly present an enormous strategic challenge to the saudis, the proxy battle over the future of bahrain last years shows this. If Iran gets nuclear weapons, then the Saudis get them too and a new arms race begins.

    The Iranian race for Nuclear weapons is targeted at Arabs (remember Iran is not an Arab state), not Israel. The idea that Iran would fire a nuke at Israel which has hundreds of nuclear weapons and the capacity to turn Iran into a sheet of glass is farcical.

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  39. swan (665 comments) says:

    I think ultimately this needs to be viewed from the point of view of Israel/Palestine as a single state. There has only ever been one state in this area – Israel. Israel controls the entire area militarily and no other state is allowed to exist or be recognised.

    So, with that in mind, what we have is basically apartheid in this state, where some residents are given the rights of citizens and others are not. It is not strictly down ethnic lines, as Arabs can be citizens of Israel, but not Palestinians that live in the West Bank or Gaza. On this basis, Israel is not so much defending itself, as engaging in a civil war being fought largely as a result of apartheid policy. So what Israel should be doing (as well as defending civilians of course), is start removing the apartheid policy by offering full rights of citizens to all Palestinians.

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  40. Mary Rose (393 comments) says:

    Kea – maybe this, for example:

    ‘“Both Hamas and Islamic Jihad are building weapons with experts from Iran,” one top security official said Saturday, ‘

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/18/world/middleeast/arms-with-long-reach-bolster-hamas.html

    Iran being ONE source only

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  41. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    Many countries lend weapons experts to other countries Mary. Nothing unusual in that. The only reason it bothers you, in this example, is the fact you oppose Iran.

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  42. ross69 (3,652 comments) says:

    Now Israel is attacking journalists. I guess when you’ve committed many war crimes in the past, more war crimes aren’t going to be a problem.

    http://www.aljazeerah.info/News/2012/November/18%20n/Israeli%20War%20Crimes%20Extend%20to%20Journalists%20by%20Bombing%20Gaza%20Media%20Center,%20November%2018,%202012.htm

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  43. Mary Rose (393 comments) says:

    >is the fact you oppose Iran.

    You are making assumptions again.

    Don’t TRUST Iran (or any of them) would be more accurate. If they are peace-loving and mind their own business, they can do what they like.

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  44. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    I regard journalists as legitimate targets. Their lies and distortions are behind much of the worlds ills. They start the wars, they should pay the price.

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  45. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    They largely do mind their own business Mary. I see no solid reason to attack them, and I doubt Israel does either. Certainly there will be radical elements, in both countries, that may hold different views.

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  46. nasska (11,525 comments) says:

    …”Now Israel is attacking journalists”….

    Good God! If they kill the journalists who will publish the Palestinians’ propaganda? Who will run the videos of the actors playing their roles as victims of the wicked IDF?

    Actors Equity will hear of this.

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  47. Lance (2,655 comments) says:

    OK
    Is Kea just multi-trolling for laughs?
    Certainly rarks up the old hornets nest.

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  48. Reid (16,471 comments) says:

    Of course there is a power struggle going on right now between the Saudis and Iranians;

    Alan IMO ME politics are proxy warfare. The Saudi’s represent the most reliable US ally but all of the US satraps form one bloc and Iran forms the other. The ME postures at the moment are formulated around who is Israel’s biggest enemies. Iraq was Israel’s Public Enemy #2 and thanks to the ‘war on terror’ the US spent her blood and treasure taking out that one. Then once that was achieved Israel’s sights turned onto Public Enemy #1, Iran. So for over a decade now the incredible influence zionist’s exercise in Washington and in the US media has painted Iran accordingly in many people’s minds. It’s been a wonder to behold.

    Israel is simply itching for Iran to do something but Iran won’t, for it knows if it attacks first it loses world opinion overnight. So it won’t do that. They might do a false flag and for those who seem shocked all wars start with false flags, der. The Gulf of Tonkin was a false flag. History repeats only when you forget it.

    Iran has two powerful alliances in Russia and China, India is also on her side and carries weight as a leader of the non-aligned nations movement. Both Russia and China have vested interests of their own in that both have their anti-US anti-West agendas separate to Iran but Iran adds to that and they also have important strategic energy connections which they won’t sever lightly. The sanctions are apparently really hurting Iran, which is an obvious softening-up pre-cursor process to an attack.

    One thing many in the west fail to consider is that Iran is a beautiful, civilised, peaceful, intelligent country. The ‘war on terror’ propaganda wrought by the zionest-oriented western media, seems to prevent many people from seeing that clear and present fact. Isn’t that peculiar.

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  49. barry (1,317 comments) says:

    Reid – Im actually not feeling any better after reading your note concerning your belief in the peace loving rationality of the Arab/Muslim world.

    Agreed – I know bugger all about the muslim/arab world. But Ive learned in my life that you can tell a fair bit about individuals and groups by observing their actions. And all Ive seen in the last 20 or 30 years are muslims and/or arabs picking conflicts with just about everyone. We saw it in the balkans and ever since then weve seen it all across the arab/muslim world. And if they arent fighting among themselves they are arguing with almost anyone they can pick a fight with. We dont see this sort of behavior among the people of south (or latin) america. We dont see it in Africa (yes we do see lots of tribal fighting in africa – but they dont just go pick a fight with anyone as the arabs/muslims seem to want to do). In fact we dont see what seems to irrational arguing with any other group (except perhaps maori in New Zealand who all seem to want to blame anyone – everyone in fact – for the problems).

    I have absolutely no doubt that if one of the muslim/arab terrorist groups got their hands on a nuclear weapon that they wouldnt hesitate for one second to use it. They show every sign of being totally irrational and the religious faction – who are also the big hunk of the terrorist groups – see only positive things in taking themselves and as many others out as possible.

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  50. Harriet (4,972 comments) says:

    RRM #

    “….There’s something quite sick (IMHO) in the way people here pick sides in this ongoing war, as though they are supporting Chelsea or Man U. or something…..”

    This is a war where you do have to pick a side and picking the side of Israel is the only choice. All Israel is asking for is it’s RIGHT TO EXIST. And when Iran acknowledges that ‘right’ they then have no reason to wage proxy wars against Israel, as Israel simply wants to live in peace.

    “…..It’s amazing how parenthood makes these news stories more real to you… my little boy has no idea how lucky he is to have been born in New Zealand…”

    There is luck in being born[the pill, abortion etc] but where you are born is to do mostly with genes and not much else[where you are located, the hospital is located etc]

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  51. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    I know bugger all about the muslim/arab world. But Ive learned in my life that you can tell a fair bit about individuals and groups by observing their actions.

    My point exactly dear Barry. Iran has not attacked anyone for centuries. I am not talking about “Muslims”, I am talking about Iran.

    Your poorly informed about Africa. There are many attrocities comitted in the name of various religions in Africa. Many Africans are Muslim.

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  52. Reid (16,471 comments) says:

    I have absolutely no doubt that if one of the muslim/arab terrorist groups got their hands on a nuclear weapon that they wouldnt hesitate for one second to use it. They show every sign of being totally irrational and the religious faction – who are also the big hunk of the terrorist groups – see only positive things in taking themselves and as many others out as possible.

    Yes but no govt is going to give them one Alan, certainly not Iran. I mean why would it? What’s the calculation in your head if you think they would? Remember, the Arabs have to win, and Israel has 350+ nukes, so what’s the calculation? That’s the point. I’ve just explained the way Iranians are calculating thinkers. Newsflash. An Arab nation is no different from this one, in that they have humans with extremely high IQs and also humans with low ones. They have angry people, they have fanatics, just like we do. It is western propaganda to hallucinate as many seem to, that your average citizen in a Muslim nation is automatically a fiery emotional furious fanatic. That is not the case. Period. If you think it is then research the given country you hallucinate about and find our for yourself what its law is, how its population lives and what its politics are, what its educational institutions teach, what its technology is like. Don’t FFS ever imagine any of the western media will ever tell you any of that. But if you want reality vs fantasy that’s where you have to point your web browser to.

    e.g. http://www.dejkam.com/iran/

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  53. wreck1080 (3,917 comments) says:

    who do you believe about who fired missiles?

    DPF says Palestinians fired first.

    Some turkey on the radio earlier today said that his reading on the internet that the Palestinians had not fired missiles into israel for weeks, and the current conflict occurred due to the Israelis only.

    Personally, I don’t believe the radio turkey. But, how does such a huge discrepancy of the true events develop?

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  54. nasska (11,525 comments) says:

    Reid

    ….”It is western propaganda to hallucinate as many seem to, that your average citizen in a Muslim nation is automatically a fiery emotional furious fanatic.”…..

    Once again you leave out the bit about Iran being a theology run by unstable Islamic nutters….the same nutters who believe in martyrdom, 72 virgins per martyr & the rest of the claptrap.

    Iranians may go through the pretence of voting but nothing can be passed without the approval of the Ayatollahs who act as an upper house. What does it matter what 75 million Iranians think individually? The power is held & decisions made by a pack of unstable, ultra religious, Jew hating whackos.

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  55. Elaycee (4,392 comments) says:

    @wreck1080:

    Some turkey on the radio earlier today said that his reading on the internet that the Palestinians had not fired missiles into israel for weeks, and the current conflict occurred due to the Israelis only.

    The radio turkey was talking crap. No surprises – why would they want to change the habits of a lifetime?

    This extract lists the number of rockets fired at Israel this year / by date. (BTW, as of November 2012, over 1,540 rockets had been launched at Israel from Gaza since January).

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2012

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  56. barry (1,317 comments) says:

    Reid – why do you think some muslims (the rat bags) are logical?

    They have a religious belief that martyrdom is the best thing one can do – especially if they take some people of the other religions with them.

    When people believe that sort of crap, they dont do – or think – logical things. Preservation of life is not on their agenda. We have seen the muslims in Pakistan give the maniacs in north korea almost everything they need to know about how to make a nuclear device. It doesnt require the Iran government to give the device away – it only needs one or two lunatics in the Iranian system to decide to let the rat bags get one.

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  57. scrubone (3,099 comments) says:

    @wreck108: that turkey (I prefer the term “idiot” but that’s just me) odviously got a corrupted version of the equally ridiculous “there havn’t been as many lately” line.

    As though even one rocket fired doesn’t justify a response, let alone a random barrage that’s been ongoing more or less since Israel gave up the strip.

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  58. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    I have nothing against Muslims and even less against Iran.

    But Israel should respond massively to the rocket attacks. They simply must stop.

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  59. Reid (16,471 comments) says:

    Once again you leave out the bit about Iran being a theology run by unstable Islamic nutters

    No I don’t I addressed it directly by explaining the Iranians are very calculating people, they are known for that trait in the ME. They are also 170 million. There are very serious people who run Iran. They are not Islamic nutters who arre going to do something emotionally fanatic. That’s with respect, totally wrong-headed.

    If you look at the facts if you’ve noticed them through the western smokescreen, the actual actions of Iran as opposed to the hysterical propaganda version, is that the facts, as in, things that have actually happened, not emotive hallucinations, STATE that Iran has been very slow to anger, in terms of doing anything in particular, in response to the years-old aggression dating back and before, to the Stuxnet. She has, hasn’t she. Yes she has.

    And even now she’s not doing anything in particular. It’s the US that’s been making every single aggressive move. That’s right. So what about provocation doesn’t anyone understand here?

    By all means place another interpretation on these facts as you wish, just don’t deny they are facts. It’s been one calculated uptick after another, and why? Because Iran can’t have one bomb even if it was building one which it’s not, apparently, according to the people who do the intell. And even if it is building a bomb because I can’t be arsed in an intel link war, so what. LIKE I’VE ALWAYS SAID, ISRAEL HAS 350+ NUKES. WHAT ABOUT MAD DOESN’T ANYONE UNDERSTAND?

    It keeps coming back to this simple plain undeniable logic and yet still people fanatically stick to the western propaganda view.

    Why?

    What the hell is wrong with some of you people? Why can’t you see the obvious as it plays out before your eyes?

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  60. Reid (16,471 comments) says:

    But Israel should respond massively to the rocket attacks.

    She should respond proportionately and use her technological advantage to be much more surgical than she is bothering currently to be.

    And why didn’t she do this all the time, rather than just a few weeks before the next election. Or is that OK, to kill babies for election purposes?

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  61. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    What the hell is wrong with some of you people? Why can’t you see the obvious as it plays out before your eyes?

    I suspect some people have been tricked into thinking that all good conservatives should hate Muslims. They align their views with those they wish to identify with, not on a considered opinion.

    This is Kiwi Blog. Can any Kiwi report, first hand, on any problem they have had with Iran ?

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  62. Alan Johnstone (1,087 comments) says:

    For the record. The population of Iran is 74m, not the 170 being quoted here.

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  63. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    “Or is that OK, to kill babies for election purposes?”

    Yes to killing babies. That is just what I was saying. Kill em all…

    I have no problem with them using their state of the art military to target babies with 1/2 million dollar missles. Killing babies is just what the IDF is doing. They see it as a key military stratgey, as any reasonable military commander would.

    Why should they value Palestinian babies more than Hamas do? Why does your concern not extend to Israeli babies?

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  64. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    She should respond proportionately

    I assume you mean showering hundreds of rockets into Gaza ?

    They can use their better targeting systems to ensure they only hit “babies”

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  65. Lance (2,655 comments) says:

    @Kea
    Iran no
    Syria yes

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  66. Sean (301 comments) says:

    To be fair, would anyone actually object to rockets being fired from Wellington into the Hutt Valley?…

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  67. nasska (11,525 comments) says:

    Reid

    …”They are also 170 million. There are very serious people who run Iran. They are not Islamic nutters who arre going to do something emotionally fanatic.”…..

    1) I haven’t counted them but for now I’m inclined to accept data from the World Bank.
    Ref: http://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&met_y=sp_pop_totl&idim=country:IRN&dl=en&hl=en&q=population+iran

    2) On another thread at another time you referred to the people of the ME as being ‘volatile’ & inclined to being ‘hotheaded’.
    Irrational defectives carrying nukes should not be trusted to act rationally.

    …”What the hell is wrong with some of you people? Why can’t you see the obvious as it plays out before your eyes?”….

    I can only speak (with confidence) for myself but I suspect that many others can also see through the smokescreen(s) of bullshit so lets not pretend that the West has a monopoly on misinformation. The trick is to stand back & look at the problem dispassionately…..with respect, you don’t.

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  68. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    I was talking about the wise and peace loving people of Iran Lance :)

    At the end of the day, I think we should leave them to sort themselves out. Foreign intervention has created most of these problems in the first place.

    I have no reason to hate Muslims or Iran. That is not to say I condone some of the carry on in strict Islamic countries, but there again I could say the same about Singapore. It is none of our bloody business.

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  69. Lance (2,655 comments) says:

    @Sean
    I was more thinking of Wainuiomata :-)

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  70. Reid (16,471 comments) says:

    On another thread at another time you referred to the people of the ME as being ‘volatile’ & inclined to being ‘hotheaded’.

    nasska the people of the ME aren’t the same people who run Iran. The Arab street have nothing to do with how the govt is run, just as the people in the street have nothing to do with how our govt is run. Do we.

    I’m talking about from a structural, institutional perspective. For example we don’t get to decide how our military is deployed and neither do their people in the street. The propaganda causes people to hallucinate that those decisions are in fact taken by the people in the street, and they’re not and never have been.

    It’s a real country. Think of 170 million of us and you have Iran. That’s the fact, but the propaganda hallucination causes lots of people to imagine it’s not us multiplied by fifty six, but rather fifty six times us of hardcore fanatics, every single one of em. Which is a hallucination. It is.

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  71. Lance (2,655 comments) says:

    @Kea
    I don’t hate Muslims either. What burns me up is one sided crap about Israel all wrong, Hamas all right, it’s just an obscene over simplification of an intensely complicated issue.
    Hell most Israelis I know aren’t terribly impressed with some of the actions of their own govt.

    The most telling moment of all was one day I asked what was it like during the 6 day war?
    This is in the context of being on a Kibbutz less than a km away from the Lebanon boarder.
    The reply I got was this;
    ” Back then Israels primary defense was it’s air force, we watched overhead as our entire air force was shot down in a matter of hours by the new SAM missiles. We expected the Arab armies to come over the hills at any moment and every man, women and child knew there would be no prisoners.”

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  72. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    Lance you can read my views above on the rocket attacks. Hamas would be lauching the second wave from a pile of smouldering rubble if I called the shots. The attacks must stop. They do not help the Palestinians and, in fact, they are the biggest victims of the rocket attacks. Hamas don’t care about the welfare of the Palestinians, they just hate Israel.

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  73. Lance (2,655 comments) says:

    @Kea
    You nailed it with that last sentence

    The messy bit is what to do about it

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  74. nasska (11,525 comments) says:

    Reid

    Your good self at 2.09pm: …..”It is western propaganda to hallucinate as many seem to, that your average citizen in a Muslim nation is automatically a fiery emotional furious fanatic.”…..

    BUT at 3.22pm:….” the people of the ME aren’t the same people who run Iran. The Arab street have nothing to do with how the govt is run, just as the people in the street have nothing to do with how our govt is run.”….

    …which would tend to support my POV that the average Iranian citizen is going to have no say in his/her fate. Instead it will be decided by the religious headcases who run the country.

    As an aside, although we as NZ citizens have little direct say in the day to day running of the country we enjoy a level of freedom unknown in Islamic countries. If NZ politicians led us into a suicidal war they would justifiably fear for their safety. Contrast this with the people of Iran who dare not speak up lest they suffer torture & death at the hands of the Revolutionary Guard.

    There is no comparison.

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  75. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    The messy bit is what to do about it

    Fortunately we don’t have to do anything about it. Very simply, it is not our problem.

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  76. nasska (11,525 comments) says:

    Kea

    ….”Fortunately we don’t have to do anything about it. Very simply, it is not our problem.”….

    I don’t know how to break this to you but you’ve just been scratched off Luc’s Xmas card list. :)

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  77. Reid (16,471 comments) says:

    Instead it will be decided by the religious headcases who run the country.

    The people who run the country are not religious nutcases any more than the people who run our country are religious nutcases. Why does anyone hallicinate they are?

    Contrast this with the people of Iran who dare not speak up lest they suffer torture & death at the hands of the Revolutionary Guard.

    Google anything at all to do with lifestyle in Iran and you’ll find that’s yet another hallucination.

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  78. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    [Israel] should respond proportionately …

    reid, really? Try walking up to a 130kg muscle-clad bouncer and using colourful language to describe their mother’s sexual predilections. You wouldn’t expect a proportionate response, neither would any onlooker. Pick a fight with someone your own size, or take a wholesale beating. War is no different.

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  79. nasska (11,525 comments) says:

    Reid

    1) The Ayatollahs run Iran….the Ayatollahs are religious headcases, ergo the country is run by religious headcases.

    2) A quick ‘Google’ suggests that disagreeing with the nutjobs in charge of Iran would make life insurance cover very expensive:
    a) http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jun/15/iran-elections-protests-mousavi-attacks
    b) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009%E2%80%932010_Iranian_election_protests
    c) http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/end-of-the-green-revolution-the-power-of-iran-s-iron-fist-a-633144.html

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  80. Reid (16,471 comments) says:

    1) The Ayatollahs run Iran….the Ayatollahs are religious headcases, ergo the country is run by religious headcases.

    No they don’t, thousands of advisers and officials run Iran. You don’t seem to understand that Iran is a serious nation, it has all sorts of things. You seem to hallucinate that the entire command structure in a country of 170 million all comes down to one or at most two people in the whole of Iran, completely ignoring the plain and obvious fact that just as in the US there are internecine power struggles within say the intelligence and defense against state not to mention thousands of very serious thinkers in all of those institution, so in Iran also, there are these people. They are. They’re not silent robots who are the Ayotolla’s private army, which is what the propaganda wants you to hallucinate.

    That’s who runs the country, in all fields: technology, economic, diplomatic, military, you name it, across the board.

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  81. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    The final comment in the opening post warrants a response.

    Rockets were fired out of Gaza into Israel before the withdrawal from Gaza settlements. They have never been fired out of the West Bank. So withdrawal did not cause or enable this to begin.

    Those supplying the rockets need a means to do this and there need to be those who want to have them. Apparently Jordan is not willing to have such weapons come through its territory and or those in the West Bank are not interested in them (there they focus on ending the occupation not seeking to be sacrificial martyrs for Islam).

    While there is no evidence that withdrawal from the West Bank occupation would lead to rocket attack, it is more that the rockets that came from Gaza were designed to give Israel the excuse to maintain the occupation there because Hamas does not want a peace settlement.

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  82. nasska (11,525 comments) says:

    Reid

    We also have command structures probably very similar in nature to those in Iran if I guess correctly. They too are probably full of time serving hacks who frustrate their citizens at every turn just the way ours do.

    Although these parasites hold some functional power in Iran it is not the power to direct the making of nuclear ordinance nor would it be the power to direct its use…..they probably don’t even have the unfettered right to torture & murder the country’s own citizens.

    Going back to my 2.21pm the Ayatollahs have the right of veto over any decisions taken by the Iranian parliament & its executive. Please let me know if you disagree with this & I’ll elaborate. If you do happen to concur then it is not hard to make the connection that they have overall control of EVERYTHING that is done in Iran.

    So it doesn’t matter what happens in the Arabian street, the Iranian control structure or even the army. The religious headcases call the shots.

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  83. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    On the issue of no country tolerating missile attacks on their civilians – they would respond – and drones.

    The USA are prepared to use drones for police work in the USA. They regard drone use as not targeting civilians, but targeting (criminal) terrorists – they claim the right to do this under self-defence since terrorist groups have been targeting civilians in the USA as well as civilians in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq etc.

    The local objection is either to their sovereignty being compromised – Pakistan, or to there being civilian casualties (Afghanistan). The bizarre aspect is that those who target civilians to terrorist nations into subjugation will cite and exploit civilian deaths caused by non Moslem military response to the terrorists as a reason for hate of said foreigners.

    This is of course expression of a primitive nationalism – hatred of others – that apparently religion exacerbates (their Godfaiith legitimises killing of internal rivals and foreigners).

    The Hizbollah and Hamas missile attacks are not targeted they are simply aimed at (civilian) settlements.

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  84. Reid (16,471 comments) says:

    If you do happen to concur then it is not hard to make the connection that they have overall control of EVERYTHING that is done in Iran.

    nasska do you seriously think that such a critical thing as the security of Iran is at the behest of a couple of people who you, but not everyone, regard as complete fanatics? Ahmedineajad is a very calculating man, so is the Ayotolla. Some don’t see that because all they see is seething rage behind their eyes, which is childishly ridiculous when you think about it.

    I mean Key doesn’t just wake up one day and decide to go to war on his own, here, does he. He couldn’t do that, could he. So why do you hallucinate the same wouldn’t also apply except with fifty six times the resources we have as a country?

    And why do you imagine Iran is even keen on war? Why? What’s your explanation of the cost-benefit equation? Do you think it’s just insane Islam bent on destroying the Jewish entity once and for all? What, with one bomb in Tel Aviv? You really think Iran thinks this would be a good idea. Well gee what happens if Israel wants to use more than one back? And she’s got 350+ of them. What about that, do you think the Iranians haven’t noticed?

    I mean really. You’re forced into believing that everyone in Iran has completely overlooked that in their naked lust to kill the Jewish entity. Is that real? Are all 170 million of em really like that? That’s the logical conclusion of the thought pattern you display. Which is not a real conclusion. Not in the real world, where people live. In some fantasy world like a movie perhaps, but not in this real world.

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  85. nasska (11,525 comments) says:

    Reid

    If a medal has ever been struck which rewards perseverance in trying to make one point then I’m a shoo in at the next awards.

    Perhaps we can try another tack. Suppose, as you hypothesise in your second paragraph, that John Key wakes up some fine morning & decides to declare war on another nation. He would need to get the executive on side but because of our unicameral system of government that would be about it.

    BUT what if we had a system of government such as exists in Iran but instead of a group of geriatric Allah botherers the millstone round our necks was the Eastborne Ladies’ Bowling Club. Poor old JK would have to get their blessing before launching his invasion. Conversely if the bowl chuckers decided to wipe out their counterparts in the USA all they would have to do is have a quiet word in his ear about the unlikelihood of any of his bills getting past them for the next five parliamentary terms if he didn’t go along with them.

    Would you not then admit, that the bowlers effectively ran the country? How is this different to what happens in an Iran run by the Ayatollahs?

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  86. berend (1,709 comments) says:

    Kea: Just stick with the facts Lance, not all the heated language and over hyped news reports. Germany has been around a very very long time. We have considerable history to judge them upon. They may have some strange ways, but they are civilised decent people.

    Yeah right.

    PS: obviously I do not intend to make this a reflection upon the Germans of our days, only that we should heed to what people say now, not what they have said thousands of years ago.

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  87. Reid (16,471 comments) says:

    Would you not then admit, that the bowlers effectively ran the country?

    Heck no, because it’s the opposite of what you suggest. The reality is, even if a handful of mullahs wanted to go to war, they have to sell it to the rest of the apparatus. Just like you do in the states or here or anywhere. And the apparatus together decides.

    It’s not the apparatus who wants to go to war and the mullahs are just holding the mad dogs back on a hair trigger, that’s the western propaganda hallucination coming back.

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  88. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    Glad you mentioned Germany. We picked the wrong side on that one too. Hitler opposed the expansion of communism and so should have we. Russian took over most of Eastern Europe and Central Asia, bring oppression, misery and death.

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  89. nasska (11,525 comments) says:

    I tried!

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  90. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    “Court rules Judaism, not place of birth, is grounds for Israeli citizenship
    Israeli court denies petition by anti-coercion activist to be recognized as Israeli without connection to Judaism, says citizenship is solely determined by law of return.”

    http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/court-rules-judaism-not-place-of-birth-is-grounds-for-israeli-citizenship-1.430676

    So lets get this straight. If I declare myself a Jew, I have more right to live there, than the people who have occupied the area for thousands of years!

    Things can not be that bad in Israel, as millions of people move there from all over Europe and the world. Their only claim is based on a book, they wrote, saying they are the chosen people. Of course, many Orthodox Jews say that is bullshit and establishing the State of Israel is not consistent with the biblical teachings at all.

    Anyway back to the rockets and death, all because of religion. Every single theist reading this is part of it.

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  91. Scott1 (552 comments) says:

    SPC has a good point,
    Gaza rockets are designed to keep the conflict going.
    this raises questions regarding the effectiveness of a ‘proportional response” or even moderately disproportionate response.

    Hamas NEEDS the israelis to kill civilians. They may not have some massive strategy to slaughter their own peopel but in all their actions it comes together and in as far as they understand it .. it is a ‘necessary evil’.

    I found interesting was the media comment made that said they had faith in their ‘soldiers’ at the front line if israell invaded.
    they must have meant they had faith they will die painfully and help recruit more martyrs…..

    So trying to give hamas a bloody nose doesnt work at all…
    What they dont want is either
    1) no response
    or
    2) overwhelming force that breaks them

    the question is does israel have an end game? do they think they are pursuing (2)?

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  92. Redbaiter (8,923 comments) says:

    The only thing notable about what is occurring in the Middle East is that Israel’s enemies know that with Obama re-elected it is now open slather on the Jews.

    Obama has said before that a second term will allow him more flexibility in foreign policy.

    Part of that “flexibility” involves a commitment to the Muslim Brotherhood (who were so helpful in Obama’s re-election) not to protect Israel as the US would have done pre-Obama.

    (what he says above in Farrar’s post is just bullshit)

    The irony is that such a large percentage of Jews in the US voted for Obama. (70% in his first election)

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  93. ross69 (3,652 comments) says:

    Thankfully, there are some Israelis who don’t want any part of the Illegal Occupation and don’t want to be complicit in war crimes.

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  94. Scott1 (552 comments) says:

    I think Iran is not crazy enough to go to nuclear war for completly crazy reasons…
    the problem would arise (if it does) through the normal route of escelating tensions (eg maybe obligations to hezbollah in the midst of israel trying to wipe them out).

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  95. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    Kea (869) Says:
    November 19th, 2012 at 5:58 pm

    So lets get this straight. If I declare myself a Jew, I have more right to live there, than the people who have occupied the area for thousands of years!

    Declarations don’t confer rights. If you make a declaration of religion then the state of Israel will (probably) grant you citizenship if you apply for it, but all that means is that rights and duties exist between you and the state, not that you have acquired the right to occupy the land.

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  96. Longknives (4,753 comments) says:

    How can you not support Israel??

    http://thechive.com/2012/04/17/beautiful-girls-of-the-israeli-army-31-photos/

    http://www.inquisitr.com/286406/bikini-wearing-rifle-toting-israeli-soldier-makes-splash-on-the-internet/

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  97. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    UglyTruth, what a load of bullshit. How silly do you think I am. Read it again.

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  98. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    Longknives, using that logic, I want to be invaded by Iran :)

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  99. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    Scott, Israel faced two options on withdrawal from Gaza – if Hamas then chose to accept a peace settlement, they had to continue with the planned disengagement from the West Bank. If Hamas decided otherwise, then occupation of the West Bank would continue and that plan would be called off.

    Israel was prepared to live with this – and only needed the US veto on Palestine recognition at the UN to do so.

    Now the election of the Moslem Brotherhood in Egypt and the emergence of the Hizbollah drone and longer range missiles (meaning Hizbollah and Hamas have all Israel within reach) and the upcoming Iranian capability for nuclear weapons comes into the mix. As does the prospect of a new Syrian regime that may have Golan Heights agendas (as leverage for opting out of the Teheran Hizbollah network).

    I have no idea what approach Israel will adopt. I am not sure they have any idea themselves – they may
    just want Obama to say they have the right to defend themselves and otherwise keep their options open.

    How an attempt to occupy Gaza and kill or round up Hamas operatives would play in Egypt is one clear constraint.

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  100. nasska (11,525 comments) says:

    Kea

    How do you know they’re Iranian…..hardly a hijab or a black tent in sight.

    Anyway you buggers who can’t get it off unless you score a sack of washing topped with a burqa are beyond kinky! :)

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  101. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    nasska, maybe women are just not your thing.

    Here is something more to your taste :)

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  102. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Israel does not need any new ‘end game’ to achieve its objectives. It only needs to continue its policies of the past 50 years; which have been very successful.

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  103. Longknives (4,753 comments) says:

    Kea- I know we live in a ‘PC’ environment of equality and all that, but was that homo-erotic link really necessary?
    Really??

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  104. nasska (11,525 comments) says:

    Kea

    Pass the mind bleach. :)

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  105. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    So you found it “erotic” Longknives ?

    You better go before Harriet and Red hear of this !

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  106. Longknives (4,753 comments) says:

    I’m so confused….I Think I might need a ‘lie down’…..

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  107. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    Kea, another court case a different decision.

    http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/israel-court-grants-author-s-request-to-register-without-religion-1.387571

    It is a fact that Israeli citizens currently include Arabs who are Christian and Moslem.

    So in the case you cited – regarding the Law of Return – one judge in one court emphasised that this eligibility to migrate to Israel was based on Judaism. As Halakah Law determines who a Jew is. The Law of Return says anyone with a Jewish grandparent can live in Israel (the Jewish grandparent has to have had a Jewish mother or be an Orthodox Jew by religion to be a Jew by Halakah Law).

    There are hundreds of thousands of people in Israel who have Jewish grandparents, but who are not Jews themselves. But they migrated to Israel under the Law of Return.

    As to the politics of it all – regarding Jews/those born in or resident in Israel prior to 1948 – Israel is waiting until these people are all dead. One possible reason is because they intend to re-define Israeli citizenship to the Law of Return test and want to classify Israeli Arabs living in Israel as Palestinian Arab residents in Israel. Thus rending moot the political impact of a claim of right of return to Israel by Palestinians – right of return to live and work in Israel, but not to be citizens, just Palestinians resident in Israel. Only a guess, but given the Likud coalition partner of choice at the moment this looks plausible. It raises the possibility of two separate national identity peoples with free movement of labour and residence (otherwise it looks a little like apartheid separatism).

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  108. questions (207 comments) says:

    “Mowing the lawns” in preparation for an election…

    Justice will find them eventually

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  109. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    SPC, there has been allot of debate about what it is to be Jewish. Some folk think of it as a race, others a religion.

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  110. questions (207 comments) says:

    SPC Says: “Moslem”

    Can’t you spell?

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  111. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    Try googling, Moslem, questions.

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  112. Lance (2,655 comments) says:

    Ah Longknives
    You bring back so many hot Israeli memories. Those women soldiers are very…. friendly…
    The Kiwi accent helps a lot with first base.

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  113. Redbaiter (8,923 comments) says:

    “nasska, maybe women are just not your thing.”

    I suspect you’re on to something there.

    The kind of petulance and spite he’s quite often guilty of suggest he’s got the right psychological makeup.

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  114. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    kea, it’s neither. Anyone with a Jewish mother is a Jew (ironically by their religious law definition) , provided they do not adopt a non Jewish religion – so it’s not religious. It’s not race as anyone can become a Jew by religion.

    Jews are an ethnic people – people join the community by birth, marriage or via religious conversion. Most have common ancestors but as there are inter-marriages and converts there is no race as such, just a tradition (that includes a religion and its evolution) and a national homeland area.

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  115. Scott1 (552 comments) says:

    mikenmild,
    In that case i take it you think they will fire missiles at them in exchange for their rockets for the rest of the century?
    Maybe you are right.
    Also maybe that is the best of all possible options… like being poked with a thousand needles as part of accupuncture treatment…

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  116. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    a national homeland area.

    On someones else’s land.

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  117. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    Luc, what is your solution to the problem ?

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  118. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    I’ll be back after work to answer your conspiracy theories and twisted logic messages of hate

    Studying hard deep in the hasbara files, are we Tim?

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  119. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    questions – Moslem is ok, could be Muslim or Mussulman. See your OED for more options, if you know how to read a dictionary.

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  120. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    How about a solution based on SC resolution 242?

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  121. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    mikenmild, I am waiting for the pompous self righteous Luc, to come up with an intelligent, workable, solution.

    I am not holding my breath.

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  122. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    Luc, their historic national homeland (eretz Israel) included parts of what are now Syria, Lebanon and Jordan as well as Gaza (albeit it not being populated by Israelis but Philistines) and the West Bank as well as the pre 67 borders of Israel.

    A bit like the historic land of Eire/Ireland includes Northern Ireland (more accurately north eastern Ulster) now part of the UK. The whole island being the national homeland of the Irish abroad.

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  123. nasska (11,525 comments) says:

    Knowing Luc’s views on the Jews & Israel you can expect any solutions he comes up with to continue what was interrupted in 1945.

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  124. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Oh, there are heaps of solutions out there Kea, but while the stronger party isn’t interested in any of them it’s a waste of breath. I have a view on what the long term outcome will be, but that’s not particularly helpful at the moment.

    Hamas has been asking for years for a long term truce, leading to full cessation of hostilities. The PLO and Hamas have both expressed agreement with the international consensus of two states.

    All this energy being wasted on ‘who started it?’ ignores the fact that Hamas turned away from rockets and towards politics in 2006, and that duly elected government was then undermined by the US and Israel to the point of organising a coup against the legitimate Hamas government, followed by a crushing blockade on Gaza.

    I remind you that just the threat of a blockade on one Israeli port is cited as justification for it’s attacks that launched the 1967 war.

    I would be grateful if any rabid supporters of killing Palestinians – women and children as well as resistance heroes – could explain just why it is that Palestinians are denied the very rights eg a country, a right to self-defence, that all nations take for granted.

    So, the first step towards a long term settlement would be Israel giving up on its policy of genocide by stealth, accepting Palestinians as human beings with all the rights and privileges pertaining to that status, withdraw the occupation of the West Bank and end the blockade of Gaza.

    Some here would be surprised at my resultant attitude to any future violence if those simple steps were taken.

    One last word on this: i see above the withdrawal of settlements from Gaza is cited as a peace offering. In fact, it was the reverse. Israel’s rulers gave up on colonising Gaza because it became too hard and the settlements were dismantled to give the IDF a clear killing ground while the pace of settlement building in the West Bank accelerated apace.

    Ariel Sharon: “Grab all the hilltops as fast as you can” or words to that effect.

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  125. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    How about we all return to our homeland ?

    Anyone keen to support that?

    Africa is going to be a very busy place. Many different people have lived in that area and can make claim to it. I fail to see why one particular group should have exclusive rights over any of it. If they had a more blended society, the fighting would be between politicians pushing each groups agenda. The current solution does not work well for anyone.

    I think it was a mistake establishing a Jewish state. However it has been done and they have a right to protect themselves from rocket attacks. Wiping out Israel is not a solution for Palestinians.

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  126. Scott1 (552 comments) says:

    Negotiated with hamas?
    They might be ok with some sort of cease fire or defacto ceasefire.. but I dont see what you could offer them in regard to resolution 242…

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  127. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    @SPC

    Bringing the mythical ‘Eretz Israel’ into modern circumstances is hardly helpful. Let’s just stick with relatively recent facts and not delve back into the haze of 3000 years ago. Otherwise there would be lots of nations torn asunder as Palestine was.

    Fact: Palestinians were treated cruelly by the then dominant western powers post WWII.

    Fact: That contiunues to this day.

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  128. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    Luc, the withdrawal from Gaza was part of a proposed withdrawal from settlements in the West Bank as well.

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  129. Longknives (4,753 comments) says:

    Don’t like those hot Israeli girls then Luc?

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  130. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Scott, try reading the resolution.

    And you search the archives of the Charlie Rose interview series, you will find Khaled Mishaal agreeing to two states and acknowledging that Hamas’ postion had changed.

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  131. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    SPC

    Your memory is faulty.

    Longknives

    Are you trying to get me in trouble with Beryl?

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  132. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    SPC (1,527) Says:
    November 19th, 2012 at 7:23 pm

    Anyone with a Jewish mother is a Jew (ironically by their religious law definition) , provided they do not adopt a non Jewish religion

    That’s only according to Rabbinical Judaism. Karaite Judaism holds the view of patrilineal descent, which is consistent with the patrilineal genealogies in the Tanak.

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  133. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    Luc, – you should learn to read in context – I was posting on Jewish identity as an ethnic people –

    “people join the community by birth, marriage or via religious conversion. Most have common ancestors but as there are inter-marriages and converts there is no race as such, just a tradition (that includes a religion and its evolution) and a national homeland area”.

    You were the one confusing this national homeland area term with modern day politics of the ME today.

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  134. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    Ugly Truth, Karaites are only recognised as fellow Jews because they have Jewish mothers.

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  135. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    One last word on this: i see above the withdrawal of settlements from Gaza is cited as a peace offering. In fact, it was the reverse.

    That is precisely the sort of one eyed twisted logic that fuels this conflict.

    People like Luc are the source of the problem. Do not look to his kind for solutions.

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  136. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    Luc, the disengagement plan included northern West Bank areas.

    http://www.theisraelproject.org/site/c.hsJPK0PIJpH/b.3599865/

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  137. Scott1 (552 comments) says:

    Luc,
    read this one carefully

    http://www.middleeastmonitor.com/articles/middle-east/1491-khaled-meshal-lays-out-new-hamas-policy-direction

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  138. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    SPC, The Rabbinical interpretation is wrong because in Hebrew law the husband has authority over the family, not the wife. The Rabbinical interpretation is from the Talmud.

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  139. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    I’d just like to say that this is an unusually moderate and relatively well informed conversation for a Kiwiblog thread.

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  140. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    My suggestion to the crisis is for a cease fire enforced by both sides. Any attacks would be dealt with internally by their own people.

    The Palestinians get to have their own homeland. Once there is stability they can start building a working prosperous country that can provide options and a future for its people. This will give the other Muslim and Middle East countries the opportunity to show the world their support goes beyond mutual hatred of Israel and arms. They can assist by investing in industry and other productive areas. Israel can become a valued trading partner with open borders.

    Yeah I know, I am dreaming.

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  141. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Your ‘solution’ seems to put most obligations on the powerless and few on the powerful.

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  142. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    No it does not mikenmild. It puts mutual obligations on both. There is nothing in what I wrote to support your comment. The only place that came from was inside your head. That sort of bias is why it will not happen.

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  143. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    Ugly Truth, its not about whose head of the family, it’s about who the Jewish sons choose to marry. In diaspora there were all these Persian, Arab, and Greek women about. Parents wanted their sons to marry a good Jewish woman. And if their daughter married a Gentile for her to raise their grandchildren as Jews.

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  144. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    SPC, It is about the head of the family because of the issue of authority. Authority is a right coupled with power. The right of the husband is apparent in the Hebrew law of adultery, which is different to civil adultery. The Hebrew law of adultery does not forbid sexual relations between a married man and an unmarried woman. This differs from civil adultery because in a civil union the state has authority because it grants the marriage licence.

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  145. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    So what your all saying, in effect, is that a Jew is what ever they say it is. Nothing more or less.

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  146. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    Kea, more a case of who wrote the last law on the issue – currently its the halakah law. Changing their law on it does not happen that often. It becomes the tradition as it “now” is.

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  147. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    Which is a round-about way of agreeing with me SPC :)

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  148. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    Ugly Truth, law is in authority over the family as it applies to all families. At some point the then Jewish establishment wanted to identify Jews as those born to a Jewish mother. Only those outside of the establishment at that time continued with another/earlier tradition – the Neturai Karta crowd for example.

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  149. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    Kea, yes and no. Many Jews want to change the legal position, but this is not easy to organise. Those in religious establishment are the last to want any change.

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  150. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    No Kea, a fair solution would need to be based on 242, mutual recognition and commitment to peace. This will never happen. No Israeli government could remain in power on the basis of a withdrawal to the 1967 borders. Modern Israel is committed to retaining the vast majority of land it has settled since 1967. Similarly, no Palestinian party could ever go further than the PLO did in the unfulfilled Oslo gamble and retain any popular support. Unpleasant as it may be, enough Palestinians remain committed to violence – at whatever cost in retaliation – to ensure decades more of sporadic violence punctuated by occasional full-scale wars. No action by Israel will change that.

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  151. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    SPC, There is no such thing as halakah law. Halakah is based largely on Pharasiac tradition, and that tradition is not a part of Hebrew law.

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  152. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    No Kea, a fair solution would need to be based on 242, mutual recognition and commitment to peace

    So you could see none of those principles in my suggestions, no mutual recognition and no commitment to peace!

    Open both your eyes and read it again.

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  153. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    Ugly Truth, Jews believe in halakah law – a state of Israel judge said that Jewish identity – the determinant of eligibility to migrate under the Law of Return is based upon it.

    http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/court-rules-judaism-not-place-of-birth-is-grounds-for-israeli-citizenship-1.430676

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  154. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    SPC, There are distinct types of law. Hebrew law is distinct from civil law because Hebrew law is based on the will of deity, while civil law is based on Roman law. The idea of law over all families is from the idea of universality in Roman religion.

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  155. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    I just read an article, about the conflict, in an online news paper. It was from the worlds biggest Muslim country. Very moderate and no one had even bothered to lodge a comment, in a country of about 250 Million Muslims.

    So much for radical Islam !

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  156. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    SPC, Belief does not have the force of truth in law. The legal opinion of a state judge is only relevant in state affairs, and state judges have no power over Hebrew law. The return to Eretz Israel, as described in the prophetic texts, isn’t determined by Zionism or by judges appointed by the Zionist state of Israel.

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  157. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    Ugly Truth, tell it to the Supreme Court of Israel when they are asked to rule on eligibility for Israeli citizenship related to Jewish identity. The only evidence of what defines Jewish identity, that the court will use as their base, is the halakah law as this is of the recognised religious establishment of the Jewish people.

    Law by nature applies for those of the group to which it applies – thus applies for all families of the group. This before and after Rome was founded.

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  158. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    Kea, Judaism and Islam have a fair amount of common ground. Their religious differences mainly involve land rights, and these differences are primarily due to different interpretations of monotheism. The deity of Islam is called Allah, while the “God” of Judaism is called Elohim. The words Allah and Elohim both have the same root meaning, but Elohim has a plural form while Allah is singular.

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  159. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    Ugly Truth – of course belief does not have the force of truth in law. Thus law is not developed based on the law of the Torah being from God. The Law of Return is what regulates migration to Israel regardless of what the prophetic texts say.

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  160. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    SPC, State servants typically have no interest in arguments that would deprive them of their position.

    The difference between Hebrew law and civil law is like the difference between the law of gravity and the emperor’s decree.

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  161. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    SPC, The English common law is based on the Torah via the laws of King Alfred the Great.

    Immigration, in the secular sense, has nothing to do with the return to Eretz Israel.

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  162. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    Ugly Truth, what is Hebrew law, that an apple falls down to the Earth?

    That there is high law that some claim was written by God, then latter law written by someone who says they met God. Then further law written down by men in power over others “under God”. Then simply laws written down by men in any nation whether they recognise they are under God or not?

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  163. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    Ugly Truth, Alfred ate pork.

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  164. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    SPC, Hebrew law is a life teaching about the consequences of free will. Without a living tree the apple would have nothing to fall from.

    The problems begin when man makes rules that are inconsistent with the natural order of things and calls those rules “law”.

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  165. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    Ugly Truth, Sure. When men write law and claim that it came from God they both exercised their free will and fulfilled the expectation that those with free will would pretend to have knowledge of God and use this to claim power to themselves over their descendants.

    So that those who came before would have rank over those that came afterwards- as if their law was higher law than the law that came afterwards

    Thus Alfred’s attempt to claim a link to past issuence of law and status of the King as the one under God.

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  166. wat dabney (3,769 comments) says:

    Hebrew law is a life teaching about the consequences of free will.

    And yet it authorises slavery.

    Do you think slaves have free well, Ugly?

    Ah well, that’s the Bible for you. Utter vileness.

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  167. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    SPC, Alfred’s laws didn’t include everything from the Judaic legal code, and included traditions for other sources, one of which was Christianity. Christianity was very much a product of the conflict between the Hebrew law and Pharasaic tradition. Alfred’s law regarding food was limited to the determination of the council of Jerusalem, which made no reference to clean & unclean animals.

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  168. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    UglyTruth, Yes. But as I posted a little earlier Alfred was developing the notion of the King as under God and issuer of law to develop the concept of due loyalty to the King (and his law).

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  169. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    SPC, sure, the divine right of kings has a history all of it’s own, too. They were warned that it wasn’t a good idea.

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  170. wat dabney (3,769 comments) says:

    So, fuck the slaves then.

    Glad we cleared that up.

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  171. Tom Jackson (2,553 comments) says:

    The Palestinians get to have their own homeland.

    Where would that be? Gaza isn’t really big enough, and Israel has made it clear that it will retain control of the sea and airspace around it come what may. Moreover, there isn’t enough contiguous land left in the West Bank that would be sufficient for a homeland – the settlements have put paid to that, since it is politically impossible for an Israeli government to dismantle enough of them to enable a genuine Palestinian state. That did not used to be the case, but the two state solution has now been dead in the water for a long time.

    There is no reasonable solution to this. The apartheid situation can only continue for so long before it ends up like South Africa did (there are simply too many Palestinians both inside Israel+WB+Gaza and refugees in adjacent territories). The other solution is for the Palestinians to be ethnically cleansed from the West Bank. That would make Israel a permanent international pariah.

    Israel is much weaker than it seems. There has been considerable recent Jewish emigration from Israel: much of it comprised of secular liberal Jews (you’ve probably met some of them, since there are lots in NZ – I work with one). I’ve heard over and over again that they just had enough of the extreme right BS. That might not be a problem if their replacements in Israel weren’t a flood extremely illiberal Russian immigrants and the ever expanding population of ultra orthodox lug nuts (both groups tend to have troubling, racist and eliminationist views). Every day that passes makes Israel less of a secular, liberal democracy and more of a populist authoritarian democracy.

    The Israelis I learned about at school bear little resemblance to the fanatical wackos now running the place. I see that Ariel Sharon’s son has just called for genocide against the Palestinians… great…

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  172. wat dabney (3,769 comments) says:

    The Palestinians get to have their own homeland.

    Why?

    Why do self-identified groups have to have their own homeland?

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  173. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    Tom, as they say a long enough rope (power corrupts) enables people to hang themselves.

    Not sure about the two state idea being dead … there are still 2 versions of this – one where there are Jewish settlements all over the West Bank and these settlers vote in Israeli elections and Arabs in Israel get Palestinian status and vote in Palestinian elections … . The other where the Jewish settlers become citizens of Palestine and Arabs remain as Israelis within Israel.

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  174. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    wat, it’s supposedly because then they will have advocacy to ensure justice for their people.

    Of course New Zealanders in Oz find Australia exploits their labour and denies them the entitlements available to other workers (children cannot access tertiary assistance etc) and the New Zealand government is unable to do anything about it.

    PS Of course it was by UN mandate that the territory was divided to establish areas where there would be a Jewish majority and an Arab majority. Because only one wanted to allow Jewish migration into the area.

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  175. wat dabney (3,769 comments) says:

    SPC,

    Such are the evils of nationalism and xenophobia.

    The solution, I suggest, is an end to nationalism and xenophobia.

    The problem here – as throughout the Arab Spring – is that Palestinian power-groups are not fighting for freedom: they are fighting to impose a barbaric medieval worldview on everyone else.

    So fuck them. Anyone seeking to impose Islam on others deserves to die.

    Unfortunately they are happy to take innocent people with them.

    Now, I once received a hefty demerit from our host DPF for asserting that those who seek to impose socialism through violence equally deserve death. I wonder what demerit awaits me for asserting the equivalent with regards to Islam. It would be strangely contradictory if there were no demerit.

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  176. questions (207 comments) says:

    SPC & Mikenmaid,

    Yes, well aware of the alternative words, if you cant use the proper words, fuck off.

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  177. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    wat appears to prefer a lot more killing as the most reliable path to peace in the
    Middle East. Round up the Arabs and the socialists anyone?

    And I am very sorry, questions, for provoking you. Did someone tell you what the ‘proper’ word for Muslims was? What will happen to other commenters here if they persist in use improper words? Will you tell them off? Please don’t.

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  178. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    Now, I once received a hefty demerit from our host DPF for asserting that those who seek to impose socialism through violence equally deserve death. I wonder what demerit awaits me for asserting the equivalent with regards to Islam. It would be strangely contradictory if there were no demerit.

    The same thing happened to me, 50 demerits for suggesting I may not be too upset about some dead socialists. Yet people openly cry for the mass murder of Arabs and Muslims. Neither group has killed as many people as socialism.

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  179. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    The rules on this blog are pretty clear; but it’s totally over to the host to decide on the demerits.
    BTW – ‘socialism’ does not kill people – people kill people. Some people kill more people than others, but there is no racial basis to determining whether one group of people is more murderous than another.

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  180. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    Thanks mikenmild, for telling us what David thinks and what the rules are.

    “people kill people”

    So I gather you have nothing, in principle, against neo-Nazis and white supremacists ?

    I thought the point being made was obvious, but clearly not obvious enough for some. On a fairly regular basis we read of people advocating the killing of thousands, here on KB. But it is only when socialists are attacked that we see demerits issued. Its the double standard that is being remarked upon. As you say, it is entirely up to David, but people can still express an opinion. Over all, I think his moderation is very good.

    Oh and mm, Muslim is not a race. Also socialists have very clearly shown they are more murderous than other ideologies. You really need to do some reading about recent world history.

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  181. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    If you are concerned about anyone advocating mass murder here on Kiwiblog, you should take that up with DPF. So far as I can see, the demerits system works pretty well.
    As for your laughable suggestion that a particular ‘ideology’ can be more murderous than any other; how many ideologies have you actually heard of? Are there any other factors apart from political doctrine that contribute to mass murder?

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