Plunket on conspiracy theorists

November 24th, 2012 at 10:00 am by David Farrar

Sean Plunket writes about the complaint to the Press Council (which I blogged about) that he and the Dom Post has to respond to, alleging the moon landings were fake. He notes:

Those who claim the 9/11 attacks were a neo-conservative plot to wrest control of the world’s oil supplies, that no plane ever crashed into the Pentagon and that the Twin Towers were brought down by controlled explosions are (in my honestly held opinion) at risk of being described as nutters.

They are the sort of people who believe fluoride in water is a global conspiracy when it’s actually designed to reduce tooth decay; that the Freemasons are an ancient order seeking global domination when they are actually secular apolitical community clubs like Rotary and Lions; that energy and car companies are deliberately hiding the existence of alternative engine technologies, when they are actually spending millions to develop them; and that our entire society is based on some intricate web of global conspiracy when it is actually just as chaotic, unpredictable and random as it has ever been.

Most conspiracy theorists I know (and I stress I have not met the Moon-landing complainant and so cannot speak to his motivations) are fundamentally unhappy people, often quite intelligent, for whom life has not worked out as they might have hoped.

I think this is very true. Both truthers and birthers for example are very unhappy people, in my observation. Yes, even Donald Trump.

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94 Responses to “Plunket on conspiracy theorists”

  1. bhudson (4,734 comments) says:

    How long before the claim on this blog that Plunket cannot find his way through the cognitive dissonance??…

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  2. Pauleastbay (5,035 comments) says:

    Reid

    Sean’s mocking you, the bastard

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  3. Lance (2,451 comments) says:

    Release the moonbats

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  4. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    The men in black suits are coming to take you away, DPF.

    Or maybe just reid.

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  5. Elaycee (4,301 comments) says:

    @Pauleastbay: Snap! :D

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  6. David Garrett (6,417 comments) says:

    Oh no DPF… now we get a thread with 102 comments on just >ihow/< the moon landings were faked…(see if my first attempt at italics works..

    Clearly not! Can someone tell me what I did wrong there?

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  7. mikenmild (10,716 comments) says:

    I don’t think any actual believer will turn up on this thread to be mocked, but let’s hope so.

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  8. bhudson (4,734 comments) says:

    David,

    You enclose the i and /i in both angled brackets – so both a ( and a ) in both instances, only angled brackets (no space between the brackets and the i or /i)

    Like so

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  9. Elaycee (4,301 comments) says:

    @David Garrett – Explanation sent to your eMail… :)

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  10. mavxp (494 comments) says:

    I recently watched a charming and interesting discussion uploaded to Youtube on jewishness, touching on antisemitism, Israel and Zionism, between Christopher Hitchens and Martin Amis in 2007:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KxEFqs9yRg

    Their insights are interesting, particularly the nature of antisemitism being a different kind of racism due to the conspiracy theory element that makes it a pseudointellectual kind of racism. It never ever dies, and keeps coming back. Jews must be forever on their guard because of it.

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  11. Sam Buchanan (502 comments) says:

    It’s simple David – it begins with “the moon landings could have been faked because that’s the sort of thing these people would do…” and since its a secret, we’ll have to speculate about possibilities, based on no real evidence.

    Kind of like your recent comment about Hone Harawira – claiming he must say worse things in private than he does in public. Obviously you don’t know what he says in private, because: (a) its in private; and (b) if you did you’d tell us. So your claim rests on the assumption that “that’s the sort of thing people like that do”, you don’t know, but you speculate based on your own prior biases.

    With a healthy dose of suspicion and bit of light reading, I’m sure you’ll find it easy to apply this methodology and come up with a fake moon landing hypothesis of your own.

    (Just to be perfectly clear, I’m one of those brainwashed fools that reckon the so-called ‘moon-landing photographs’ were produced by NASA and co. building spacecraft and flying Armstrong and Aldrin and a camera to the moon)

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  12. barry (1,317 comments) says:

    Are we talking about Cunliffes attempt at a take over again……..?

    If ever there was a conspiracy theory – that was it.

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  13. David Garrett (6,417 comments) says:

    Sam: OK, I will play…..His “white mofos f…ing us over for years” comment WAS initially a private e-mail sent to Buddy Mikaere, formerly of the Waitangi Tribunal…only Hone the Racist made the mistake of daring Mikaere to release it to the media …which Mikaere promptly did…ergo we would never have known about that particular (private) outburst if the correspondent hadn’t released a private communication…ergo we know he says things in private that are way more inflammatory and racist than he says publicly

    Here’s another one (which he will probably deny if you ask him) which H the R said to me…we used to be benchmates, and had a coffee in the Koru Club quite often..

    When discussing the latest killing of a little brown child, H the R told me that contrary to what the liberals said about it being “our” problem, it was in fact primarily a Maori problem; that he “didnt give a stuff about colonization and all those bullshit excuses”, and that it was up to Maori to fix it….In public of course, its all the honkey’s fault, and Maori didnt beat their children until the missionaries taught them to…

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  14. greybeard (49 comments) says:

    Well, I am one of those who have doubts about some of those momentous events of the past.
    You cannot deny that throughout man’s history there have been real conspiracies, and many of them. Political, social, religious, financial, technical, you name it: when two or more people collude to deceive others by twisting or hiding the truth, by manufacturing ‘facts’ and by causing events and manipulating results to suit their own ends, then you have a conspiracy.
    The examples used by Mr. Plunkett are very high-profile matters, of a recent and global nature. In Mr. Plunkett’s opinion ( which must be respected ), none of these should be viewed as anything other than true versions of events and that to disagree with the official accounts marks one as a ‘conspiracy theorist’ and ‘nutter’.
    Maybe it is true that the bigger the lie, and the more often it is repeated, then the more likely we are to believe it. We should be grateful that out there are those who ask questions, do their own investigations, cast doubts on the official and popular accounts, who think laterally or apply different reasoning and are maybe a little less gullible than the rest of us.

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  15. Harriet (4,514 comments) says:

    People believe anything these days, like gays being ‘born that way’ well they’re not, gays are just confused hetrosexuals.

    Biology has nothing to do with ‘being gay’ as their fertility rates are the same as the general poulation and their ‘private bits & pieces’ are in good working order, again just like that of the general population, rather ‘being gay’ is all about ‘emotions’ like love, arousal, attraction, desire etc.

    It is just a ‘lifestyle choice’ that differs to hetrosexual Marriage because kids are not involved, or any other natural order responsability.

    Unlike Armstrong and Aldrin, gays have faked it! Fool John Key & co! :cool:

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  16. Tom Jackson (2,458 comments) says:

    Their insights are interesting, particularly the nature of antisemitism being a different kind of racism due to the conspiracy theory element that makes it a pseudointellectual kind of racism. It never ever dies, and keeps coming back. Jews must be forever on their guard because of it.

    Thank you for a fine example of a nutty conspiracy theory with exactly the same kind of staying power as the Masonic plot.

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  17. wat dabney (3,671 comments) says:

    Of course it is the ultimate irony is for theists – believers in invisible magical pixies – to ridicule, dismiss and condemn others for their ‘conspiracy theories.’

    Happily, Reid cannot be accused of such hypocricy

    Harriet,

    If you maintain that sexuality is simply a ‘lifestyle choice’ you are in effect saying that you find men and women equally sexually attractive. You are saying that you and Colin Craig (who made the same claim) are bisexual by nature, heterosexual by choice. You are saying that you are both suppressing your homosexual urges.

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  18. Mary Rose (393 comments) says:

    And Harriet takes today’s prize for turning a thread which has nothing to do with homosexuality into an excuse to post something about it.
    Because DPF never has threads on same-sex marriage for people to rehash the arguments for/against on.

    …I was going to say; ‘All we now is for someone to turn it into a believers v atheists thread’ – but it’s already happened.

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  19. ChardonnayGuy (1,133 comments) says:

    As a matter of interest, New Zealand politics can pride itself on its relative absence of the aforementioned raving right types. Back in 1987, when they helped to lose National that general election, the centre-right turned its back on populist gimcracks, conspiracy theorists and the raving right, realising that whatever had happened in the seventies, they weren’t an electoral mainstream. Unfortunately for the centre-right, these nutters had their revenge in 1993, at which point militant fundamentalists forgot that they were supposed to be conservatives and backed MMP out of a fit of opportunist pique. They then proceeded to stuff up the 1996 New Zealand election, forcing National into a toxic coalition with mad populist New Zealand First. Fortunately, these people are now virtually extinct, with the exception of a pseudo-libertarian ZAP member fixated on Obama and a former Radio Pacific squawkback harridan who hangs around the rotting carcass of the male backlash movement. And (ugh) New Zealand First and Investigrunt.

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  20. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    @David Garrett

    OK, I will play…..His “white mofos f…ing us over for years” comment WAS initially a private e-mail sent to Buddy Mikaere, formerly of the Waitangi Tribunal…only Hone the Racist

    I fail to see the problem. It is an entirely factual statement, if one forgives the pejorative embellishment and the uncouth, but very common amongst us white mofos, expression used as shorthand for ‘performing disservices to Maori since before the Treaty of Waitangi was signed’.

    H the R told me that contrary to what the liberals said about it being “our” problem, it was in fact primarily a Maori problem; that he “didnt give a stuff about colonization and all those bullshit excuses”, and that it was up to Maori to fix it

    While I admire Hone’s acceptance of responsibility of Maori to own the problem, the fact remains that drug abuse and physical violence, including spousal and child abuse, are traits that have bedevilled virtually all colonised peoples of the European imperialist era.

    Wishing it ain’t so won’t make it any less true that we white mofos do share a significant responsibility for the sad statistics of our Maori.

    [Once again, thank god for the edit function!]

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  21. thor42 (916 comments) says:

    I agree 100% with what Plunket says.
    IMO, the so-called “truthers” should be lined up against a wall and shot.

    Why the **heck** those people can’t just accept what happened at face value – that a group of savage bloody Muslims flew planes into the Towers and the Pentagon – is a mystery. The sheer horror of the truth seems to have overloaded their brains, so they immediately seek out non-existent “conspiracies”.
    Morons.

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  22. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Chardonnay Guy wants to return us to the days of the tyranny of a gerrymandered majority of seats that was perversely unrepresentative of the popular vote.

    Oh well…

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  23. Mary Rose (393 comments) says:

    Luc > the fact remains that drug abuse and physical violence, including spousal and child abuse, are traits that have bedevilled virtually all colonised peoples of the European imperialist era.

    Why? In 21st Century NZ, why are people bound by what happened to their ancestors? Aren’t they capable of making their own decisions? Would they be better off if Europeans hadn’t turned up after they did?

    There is no excuse for domestic violence. No one forces anyone to beat their kids. And it’s patronising to suggest that somehow they can’t help it. Like they are poor creatures, incapable of behaving better.

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  24. ChardonnayGuy (1,133 comments) says:

    Actually, Luc, no I don’t. I only pointed it out because I thought that it was amusing that conspiracy theorists and the Christian Right tend to package themselves as defenders of ‘tradition’ yet rolled over and embraced a centre-left position like proportional representation electoral reform because they thought that they could inflict themselves on National as a potential coalition partner in the form of the Christian Heritage (Graham Capill Paedophile Leader) Party and then, that ramshackle “Christian Coalition’ flakeapart trojan horse of theirs and then United Future, who got into bed with Labour when expedient. As a matter of fact, I belonged to the Campaign for MMP last year. And I also support a written constitution for New Zealand and a republican head of state.

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  25. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    that a group of savage bloody Muslims flew planes into the Towers and the Pentagon

    cf

    “truthers” should be lined up against a wall and shot.

    Can anyone else spot the cognitive dissonance evidenced in these two statements>

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  26. Sam Buchanan (502 comments) says:

    “only Hone the Racist made the mistake of daring Mikaere to release it to the media”

    Hardly private if you tell someone they can release it to the media.

    “When discussing the latest killing of a little brown child, H the R told me that contrary to what the liberals said about it being “our” problem, it was in fact primarily a Maori problem; that he “didnt give a stuff about colonization and all those bullshit excuses”, and that it was up to Maori to fix it…”

    So when you claim Hone says worse things in private, you actually mean he says better things? Or do you disagree with him that “it’s up to Maori to fix it”?

    And you still haven’t answered the simple question – when did Hone say he wanted pakeha to “go home”?

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  27. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    That’s good to know CG.

    Not sure about your latter two causes, though. Written constitutions can be devilish things to adapt to changing times, as the US experience shows. Living documents are much more preferable, in my opinion.

    And as flawed as the monarchy is, do we really want President Key or President Helen?

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  28. ChardonnayGuy (1,133 comments) says:

    Thor- you forgot the incompetent ex-cokehead little rich boy president who let three thousand people die because he was distracted. That’s what I don’t get about the truthers- why can’t they accept that Duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh-bya has justifiably pipped James Buchanan (pre-Lincoln Pres, led to the US Civil War in the 1860s) as the worst US President ever because he was a dolt?

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  29. wat dabney (3,671 comments) says:

    drug abuse and physical violence, including spousal and child abuse, are traits that have bedevilled virtually all colonised peoples of the European imperialist era.

    Jesus but Luc posts some shit here doesn’t he.

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  30. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Mary Rose insists on spouting her version of ‘common sense’ whilst ignoring the factual reality I pointed out. I guess it beats actually thinking.

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  31. ChardonnayGuy (1,133 comments) says:

    Actually, Luc, I prefer the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms as a better template for a written constitution. And as for the monarchy, why do we persist in having a remote figure of hereditary privilege as our head of state when we could have a New Zealand icon?

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  32. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    These conspiracy theories are of course just a subset of the wierd myths and legends that people believe. what has become known as the misinformation age. a large anti scientific movement which has gained ground since ww2.

    Another conspiracy theory close to my field is that the pharmaceutical industry doesn’t want to invent good drugs because they would all loose their jobs :)

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  33. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    Bingo. When your dealing with born again scientists,and evolutionist, their conspiracy skeletons in the closet aren’t too far away. The only truth in the colonisation bs would be that we have inflicted a social welfare system on people which is totally destructive to them, including the so called “colonised”.

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  34. Mary Rose (393 comments) says:

    Luc. >I guess it beats actually thinking.

    I guess insulting me beats answering my question.

    Whatever your statistics, I don’t see how anyone bashing their wife or kid today is the fault of Captain Cook.

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  35. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    Chardonnay it is just wrong to say that the shambles that was the 90s national government was anything but the fault of the national party. And we’ve suffered for it because we’ve had business as usual labour and labour lite gumints ever since.

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  36. Sam Buchanan (502 comments) says:

    “I don’t see how anyone bashing their wife or kid today is the fault of Captain Cook.”

    Best straw man argument ever!

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  37. Mary Rose (393 comments) says:

    Sam – How so?

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  38. Lee C (4,516 comments) says:

    David Garrett: ‘Clearly not! Can someone tell me what I did wrong there?”

    Informing you how you went wrong is an ambitious undertaking, it took Tolstoy about 30 years to knock up War and Peace, and that would be a mere brochure in comparison.

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  39. ChardonnayGuy (1,133 comments) says:

    I’m under no illusions that the Bolger/Shipley administration’s third term was anything more than a poisoned chalice, much like that of the Muldoon and Clark administrations before and after it. During any party’s third term of government, the Opposition tends to regroup, the government begins to succumb to incumbency fatigue and policy errors start to multiply like bubonic plague in terms of cascade effects/

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  40. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    Yes but the early 90s government did irreparable damage with not continuing with the 80s reforms, paranoid human rights legislation, and starting the iwi gravy train in Ernest, plus innumerable other things they did or didn’t do. MMP almost saved us from them just like it saved us from excesses of labour, alliance and greens rule would have had.

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  41. Reid (15,943 comments) says:

    David you need to put the slash inside the greater than/less than signs: as in [i]text[/i]

    But on this, it’s interesting that people always but always in the same breath equate 911 with the moon landings, as if the one has anything to do with the other. Doing so is a sign of subconscious programming, meaning you’ve been influenced to think that way and you don’t even know it, in precisely the same way the wife is taught to think she prefers a particular brand of washing powder. If you think you’re not programmed then why don’t you equate in your own mind 911 with JFK for example? No-one does, do they. It’s always the moon landings. DPF does it almost everytime he puts up a thread on 911 and you see Plunket just do the same thing. And until you just read this you were doing it too, weren’t you. JFK was not even in your mind, was it. The reason you shouldn’t be associating JFK in your mind with 911 is because JFK is to most people, at least very fishy, that’s why you’re not allowed to do it. And you didn’t even know you weren’t doing it, did you.

    The Tavistock Institute in London is the agency responsible for psyops. They’re the one’s who’ve implanted this meme into your collective subconscious.’ And you don’t even know it. I can’t be arsed debating 911, it’s a waste of time because anyone can find the sites, so instead I thought I’d explain 911 in the geostrategic context.

    We have been at constant ‘war’ since 1939. Think about it. First WWII, then ‘the Cold War’ then ‘the war on drugs’ now ‘the war on terror.’ Fear is a very powerful driver of human behaviour, Tavistock uses it all the time. Many of you will be aware of Albert Pike’s letter to Massini. Some claim it’s a fake and here’s a link to one of those sites. I don’t know and I don’t care. All I know and care about is that it explains the history of the 20th century to a T. It said:

    “The First World War must be brought about in order to permit the Illuminati to overthrow the power of the Czars in Russia and of making that country a fortress of atheistic Communism. The divergences caused by the “agentur” (agents) of the Illuminati between the British and Germanic Empires will be used to foment this war. At the end of the war, Communism will be built and used in order to destroy the other governments and in order to weaken the religions.”

    “The Second World War must be fomented by taking advantage of the differences between the Fascists and the political Zionists. This war must be brought about so that Nazism is destroyed and that the political Zionism be strong enough to institute a sovereign state of Israel in Palestine. During the Second World War, International Communism must become strong enough in order to balance Christendom, which would be then restrained and held in check until the time when we would need it for the final social cataclysm.”

    “The Third World War must be fomented by taking advantage of the differences caused by the “agentur” of the “Illuminati” between the political Zionists and the leaders of Islamic World. The war must be conducted in such a way that Islam (the Moslem Arabic World) and political Zionism (the State of Israel) mutually destroy each other. Meanwhile the other nations, once more divided on this issue will be constrained to fight to the point of complete physical, moral, spiritual and economical exhaustion…We shall unleash the Nihilists and the atheists, and we shall provoke a formidable social cataclysm which in all its horror will show clearly to the nations the effect of absolute atheism, origin of savagery and of the most bloody turmoil. Then everywhere, the citizens, obliged to defend themselves against the world minority of revolutionaries, will exterminate those destroyers of civilization, and the multitude, disillusioned with Christianity, whose deistic spirits will from that moment be without compass or direction, anxious for an ideal, but without knowing where to render its adoration, will receive the true light through the universal manifestation of the pure doctrine of Lucifer, brought finally out in the public view. This manifestation will result from the general reactionary movement which will follow the destruction of Christianity and atheism, both conquered and exterminated at the same time.”

    The reason I don’t care if it’s true or not is because if you know who Albert Pike was, you realise it is quite conceivable that is the sort of thing he would say. If you don’t know who he was, you’re incapable of forming an accurate opinion on that question. This is a mistake many make when discussing 911. All of a sudden they leap on some tiny fragment of the whole picture and tear it to shreds like a yappy lapdog and proudly and triumphantly proclaim that because of (in their minds) their complete and utter destruction of that one tiny fragment of the story, that EVERYTHING is bullshit. And they continue along their merry way failing to have realised that they have conflated one tiny fragment with a much wider, much more complex picture and in fact, have proven nothing at all. Except in their own mind.

    Anyway, at the highest level this is to destroy Israel, level Jerusalem and build the second temple. I know, nuts isn’t it. These people are all Satanists and setting aside the venal power and money games, this is at the heart of what these people’s goals. These people believe that by destroying Israel they will show the world that YHWH is not as powerful as their god, Satan. They want to eliminate 5/6′s of us. They call us “useless eaters.” All of us are parasites on the face of Mother Earth therefore most of us have to die. If you google “Georgia guidestones” you’ll find photos of a very spooky monument erected about fifteen years ago that says among other things Earth’s population should be 500,000. See that gives them the ability to live like 17th century European aristocracy and a good enough gene pool that they can generate enough ants to keep them in style.

    Incidentally, the people I’m talking about are the same people who are currently being focused on in the UK with the Savile scandal. These are the people who evidently according to the children from them run orphanages specifically designed to supply them with children who they proceed to take to parties and rape and torture and sometimes kill. Check these links if you have the slightest doubt this is real. Hundreds of witness victims, many different locations, cases closed down.
    http://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/jersey-victim-says-sex-assaults-on-drugged-youngsters-were-rife-1-1156904
    http://aangirfan.blogspot.co.nz/2008/02/child-abuse-in-uk-jersey-kincora-north.html
    http://aangirfan.blogspot.co.nz/2006/02/marc-dutroux.html

    What’s happening at the moment in Savile is they are using McAlpine to deflect the heat from the allegations it infests the highest levels. Check this Scallywag article from the 1970′s which McAlpine never sued for and which accuses McAlpine of extraordinarily libellous things if they weren’t true. Why didn’t he sue then? And guess why the media hasn’t bought up the existence of this article and explored what happened to the founders of Scallywag afterwards?
    http://scallywagmagazine.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/scallywag-magazine-article-on-lord.html

    If you follow some of the sidebar links on that aangirfan blog you’ll read the allegation that MI5 tolerated this in order to get dirt. You imagine if you get filmed raping children, how does that compromise your impartiality?

    Whenever you see someone like Savile or Dutreaux or Nihoul you have to realise they’re not just random abusers on their own, they are suppliers. And it happens all the time. Where do you think all the missing children disappear to? Anyway I just gave you this so you have an idea of the sort of people I’m talking about.

    The war on terror is a psyop. It’s a Tavistock meme the same as feminism is a Tavistock meme. With feminism the cover is “human wights,” with the war on terror the cover is: “we’re defending you.” The reason is they want us to have a Muslim-Christian war to bring about the aforesaid destruction of Israel and erect the temple. As I said before I know this is nuts, however this is what they want to do and why, it’s not my idea so don’t blame me for it, I’m merely explicating it. You won’t see the war on terror nor feminism as psyops unless you look for signs you would find in psyops and as soon as you do that it becomes as plain as day. You may accuse me therefore of reading things into it that aren’t there, but I’m not,

    In this context 911 was what is called a false flag operation. The Gulf of Tonkin – history is littered with them. 911 triggered a global change in consciousness which allowed both the US and UK to implement highly ubiquitous and intrusive surveillance and security systems. The US has a law allowing any in the world including Americans, to be detained, tortured for life, without trial. It called the National Defense Authorisation Act. Notice how it’s all done to “defend” us. This is why they have to grope babies and old ladies in the airports. To “defend” us.

    Of course none of you have ever looked at geostrategy like this but it’s the only thing I know of that really does put the whole world into complete context. It explains why for example the heroin trade in Afghanistan shot through the roof as soon as the US lands and remains through the roof. Why couldn’t the US just spray defoliant on the poppies? The trillions of dollar drug profits are used to fund black programs. It explains why the EU politicians refuse to listen to their own citizens and instead continue to let millions of Muslims enter who proceed to disrupt the homogeneity of the population. It explains why the Israeli leadership continually use Israel as a vehicle to increase enmity not just between the Palestinians and Israelis but between the entire Muslim world and the Christian world because Muslims see the Christian world do nothing but act in lockstep with Israel, it explains Egypt, Syria, Iran, US, China. (BTW, when analysing psyops, thinking about value judgements like ‘is Israel wrong or are the Palestinians’ is completely irrelevant. The only question is: what effect has the behaviour had on the psyche of the populations? That’s the only relevant question so forget about thinking about any of that stuff when thinking about whether what I just said has any substance, it’s not relevant.)

    The point of all this is that none of you, I bet, has ever really bothered to read in detail all the allegations not as explained by the articles designed to discredit them, for they are memes, but as written by the people who made them. I just explained 911 in the wider context. The issue for you, as it used to be for me, is that it’s so inconceivable, so unbelievable that it couldn’t possibly be true. At the end of the day that’s the reason why most people don’t get 911 or the ‘war on terror’ or Syria or anything else. Not because its not true, but because they can’t bring themselves to accept the possibility and then proceed to make genuine enquiry based on that attitude. Which, like a cop investigating a case, you have to have because it’s the definition of an open mind. Until you accept as a concept in your mind when you read this stuff that it’s possible you’ll never understand what it’s really saying, you’ll stop reading in a few minutes and get back to the ‘real world’ where you’re safe. One thing you’re possibly not aware of is that getting familiar with this stuff does not remove the perspective you currently have. I guarantee that I could if I wished enuciate precisely the way you think the world works, because I used to think exactly the same way and can if I wish still think that way anytime I want to. However I find the additional perspectives I have at my disposal gives me far greater predictive power in the real world, as things happen. For example as soon as I saw the Arab Spring, I immediately recognised it as Brzezhinsky deploying yet another series of ‘colour revolutions’ just like he did in Eastern Europe in the 90′s. If I didn’t know who Brzezinsky is and what role he plays in the plan, I would have never have seen that. Yet most of you I bet, didn’t even know Brzezhinsky has been in Obama’s Administration, did you. So it’s stuff like that I just quietly file away, like I did when I read the Brzezhinsky was Obama’s senior FP advisor in his 2008 campaign. And I’ve watched the ME unfold as predicted, since then.

    Did you know what the Russian operation in Georgia was about, BTW, as another example. Remember when Putin invaded Georgia? He did it because Israel has always had a close relationship with Georgia, and Georgia’s President was going to let them use airbases to launch an attack on Iran. Have a look at a map. At the time Bush was denying them permission to overfly Iraq. This is because while Bush of course was a keen as mustard to help his buddy Israel, no President is a completely free agent. The US military knew that if Israel attacked Iran the consequence was that Iran would activate Hezbollah to cut-off the US Marine Corps supply lines and bases of up to 60,000 troops would be cut-off and surrounded. Now Putin of course was never going to allow this because both Russia and China use Iran as a proxy against its main enemy, the US. That’s why he invaded and stopped it. Now at the same time as knowing this, I can also hold in my mind what most of you people think happened, which was nothing at all, it was a local conflict between Russia and Georgia.

    So it’s useful knowledge to have, in this world of ours. Perhaps because I’m Christian, I have no cognitive problem in understanding the Satanic elements that are in fact involved. You see if you accept God exists, you also accept Satan exists. And knowing this is part of what Soren Kierkegaard called the leap of faith which I made when I was young which I didn’t have to deal with when I started looking at 911. For non-believers, it’s a double-whammy. You’ve not only got to know that God really does in fact actually exist, you’ve also got to temporarily and genuinely in your own mind, suspend your understanding of your current world view. If you don’t do both of those things, you’ll never truly understand the allegations and therefore you’ll never be in a position to accurately answer whether or not they are valid, just like the cop who decides someone is guilty before they’ve objectively weighed all of the evidence.

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  42. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Finally! reid rides to the rescue!

    Better late than never.

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  43. Reid (15,943 comments) says:

    BTW David if you want to get really fancy and do the hyperlink the tag is and you have to do everthing including the spaces exactly as I write: [a href ="paste in your link here"]text I want to turn blue[/a href]

    Cheers Luc. That aangirfarn blog is very good btw, masses of subjects and some extremely important stuff.

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  44. Reid (15,943 comments) says:

    Unless someone responds within 5 minutes, I’m going to assume I’ve won the argument.

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  45. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Bump

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  46. Ryan Sproull (7,030 comments) says:

    Wait, Pike was supposedly making references to Nazism in 1870? Was the term even in use then?

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  47. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    What was your argument again?

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  48. wat dabney (3,671 comments) says:

    Unless someone responds within 5 minutes, I’m going to assume I’ve won the argument.

    Is that a quotation of Aristotle’s, perhaps? Plato?

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  49. Falafulu Fisi (2,176 comments) says:

    But Plunket said that aliens are here.

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  50. Reid (15,943 comments) says:

    Wait, Pike was supposedly making references to Nazism in 1870? Was the term even in use then?

    There are various versions on the web Ryan. I took it from that site that doesn’t think it’s real because of convenience and it’s generally accurate but I have read other, better worded versions which I don’t recall used that term. Go figure. And like I said, I don’t care if it’s real. It served as a useful narrative to illustrate a perspective on history. Like I said before, bear in mind that letter is a tiny fragment of a huge complex picture and what matters is who Pike was. If you don’t know who Pike was, you should. He wrote Morals and Dogma. He did a lot of things. A very interesting player.

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  51. Reid (15,943 comments) says:

    What do you think about aliens Falafulu?

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  52. nasska (10,666 comments) says:

    Reid

    1) Do you regard Albert Pike’s letter as prophetic given that much of what he has purported to have written has come to pass? I’m not concerned of allegations that it is a fake provided that there is concrete evidence that the script was written prior to 1900. IMHO entire religions have been constructed on less fact.

    2) Should you agree, then it follows that everything is preordained. Ergo nothing will alter the course of the present ME descent into war & the world wide chaos that will ensue. How do you think NZ would fare should this occur?

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  53. Reid (15,943 comments) says:

    Do you regard Albert Pike’s letter as prophetic given that much of what he has purported to have written has come to pass?

    You need to look at Pike, who he was and what he did. Let me give you a start. He was a Confederate General. He wrote Morals and Dogma of the Ancient and Accepted which is the operating manual for the Scottish Rite of Freemasonry, published in 1871.

    He was a genius. He was also a Satanist. Just google those keywords and see what turns up and remember what I said above. Read the stuff from the people who are making the allegations, not from the people who are aiming to discredit them. These is a lot of disinformation in this field. Until you have a mental model of it you don’t have any guidance as to whether or not you’re being garden-pathed.

    As to whether it was prophetic it’s certainly the way the world moved and is moving. Obviously none of us can stop a war with Iran which is the trigger for the onset of it. One factor that I didn’t cover is what they’re going to do with the Chinese. Remembering these people stop at nothing and kill children for pleasure and to satisfy their god, google “anglo-saxon plan” for some possible thinking on that.

    As to how we’ll fare, Australia is regarded as their ark, where they’ll temporarily migrate to when things get radioactive or biological, which they’re planned to. So we’ll be alright.

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  54. bhudson (4,734 comments) says:

    google “anglo-saxon plan” for some possible thinking on that.

    Why not just google conspiracy theory and take your pick? There’s a whole heap of them to cling to.

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  55. Reid (15,943 comments) says:

    bhudson they explain factual things that happen in the real world as I’ve amply illustrated above. If your mind is too small to accommodate the concepts I covered then I pity you.

    Do you want to discuss the anglo-saxon plan? It’d be good if you do, it’s a very interesting issue.

    One thing I didn’t mention in my first post was the Tavistock programming also includes a subconscious reaction to the trigger words “conspiracy theory.” They started that in the 1950′s and over the years they drum that in for example when Bush used them after 911 – that was all psyops. It’s a conditioned pavlovian reflex – hear the trigger words and do something. In this case your mind switches to a mode of scepticism and ridicule. It’s ironic isn’t it, there’s a conspiracy theory about the use of the words “conspiracy theory.”

    OK who knows if that’s true but it’s certainly the phenomena that happens as soon as that trigger phrase is used, isn’t it. I normally put people who use it disparagingly at the same level as the children who point at the fat kid and chant “fatty, fatty…” as he walks past, because each group is about as ignorant as the other about the subject under their respective questioning.

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  56. bhudson (4,734 comments) says:

    If your mind is too small to accommodate the concepts I covered then I pity you.

    Reid, I consider my mind and thoughts to be too independent to be captured by conspiracy theories.

    OK who knows if that’s true but it’s certainly the phenomena that happens as soon as that trigger phrase is used, isn’t it.

    The scent of bovine scatology tends to have that effect on people.

    because each group is about as ignorant as the other about the subject under their respective questioning.

    They could only be ignorant if the conspiracy theory were not, in fact, the bovine scatology that it is. Thus, in fact, it must be you who is ignorant Reid – ignorant of reality – and in condemning those who are not, it is you who is chanting “fatty, fatty.”

    You don’t sound a very happy person.

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  57. Reid (15,943 comments) says:

    Reid, I consider my mind and thoughts to be too independent to be captured by conspiracy theories.

    OTY but I’ve already explained I’ve lost nothing by expanding my world view. I can precisely emulate yours because I used to think like you. Now, I can chose to think like you if I wish, plus I can also think about things in a completely different way as well.

    It’s only possible to get lost in the conspiracy world if you’re a complete A-grade village idiot or on drugs.

    it must be you who is ignorant Reid – ignorant of reality

    You’re just like the child who holds his hands over his ears while his parent try to patiently explain something that is good for him but which he doesn’t want to hear. I’ve mentioned it doesn’t affect one’s existing worldview in the least six times now, and still bhudson refuses to listen to what the point is saying to him. How long will bhudson hold his hands over his ears, like naughty little Johnny?

    You don’t sound a very happy person.

    Then obviously you haven’t understood a word I’ve said today. Perhaps you’re having an internal struggle with yourself and you’ve lost your usual perspicacity.

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  58. bhudson (4,734 comments) says:

    Perhaps you’re having an internal struggle with yourself and you’ve lost your usual perspicacity.

    No Reid, it was a simple reference to Sean Plunket’s comment re: conspiracy theorists being “fundamentally unhappy people, often quite intelligent, for whom life has not worked out as they might have hoped.”

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  59. Griff (6,763 comments) says:

    Just came inside from burning pork on the bbq and drinking sav in the hot sun
    To find my favourite conspiracy theory fan wat being all condescending to Reid.
    Hows the massive hoax by the science community aided and abetted by the UN conspiracy to inflict a one world government going watwat

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  60. RightNow (6,659 comments) says:

    Holy crap, I’m going back on the deck with my homebrewed pilsner. Come on people, there’s life outside of kiwiblog!

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  61. mikenmild (10,716 comments) says:

    At least Reid is consistent – he believes in ALL of the conspiracy theories – Templars, Freemasons, Protocols of Zion, Roswell, JFK, Moon landings, AGW, 9/11 and birtherism. Fair enough though, believe in one and you may as well believe in them all.

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  62. RightNow (6,659 comments) says:

    Hic!

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  63. Griff (6,763 comments) says:

    MM its the poor sods that believe in one of your list and think they are sane that I feel sorry for.
    Reid is just slightly eccentric. Genius does that to some :grin:

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  64. Reid (15,943 comments) says:

    Since this thread is about conspiracy, I thought I’d mention a few of them today which I did. I’m disappointed but not surprised no-one has taken the opportunity to discuss the Anglo-Saxon Plan which is a pity because it’s extremely interesting.

    You have to adopt a certain mindset toward this stuff and someone said above I believe in everything which is not true, that person and none of you either, have any real idea what I really believe and don’t believe in this field. You do on Israel but not on this field :)

    But you have to approach it with an open mind. If you’ve already decided for example in your own head that we have had no contact with aliens, what point is there in you looking at anything on the web which suggests we have? OTOH if you wished to answer that question, you’d look into it with a completely open and objective mind. And if you don’t have that, what’s the point in even asking yourself the question, because as far as you’re concerned, in your infinite understanding of the world and everything that’s in it, you already know the answer. And some of you mistake that open mind which I adopt, for belief. I don’t always believe everything I post. Often I post merely to provide those curious or interested with an angle to explore, should they wish to.

    So to end my part in this thread, here’s two great conspiracy “theory” youtubes. One is the full version of the Mena drug connection which documents the govt’s involvement in the drug trade and gets into Clinton and what he did in Arkansas with Paula Jones, WhiteWater and cocaine trafficking. It explains why for example one of his last acts as President was to pardon Marc Rich, and stuff like that.

    The second one since I just used the alien example above is from an extremely good resource if anyone cares to adopt an open mind and explore the question of whether or not they do exist. It’s a library of interviews from some very interesting people. This one is a guy called Pete Peterson. It’s self-explanatory if you listen to it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooSRh7V68uk But google that sight: Project Camelot. Also look for a guy called Bob Dean on that site.

    I doubt any of you will watch either and frankly, that’s a shame, for you. For it expands not changes your world view. It’s a good thing, knowing this stuff, not a bad thing.

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  65. SPC (5,392 comments) says:

    Conspiracy theories are allegations, as yet unproven.

    Those who have something to hide disparage those who are inclined to have them. Because one day the allegation may well be about them.

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  66. mikenmild (10,716 comments) says:

    ‘You have to adopt a certain mindset toward this stuff’
    No shit.

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  67. nasska (10,666 comments) says:

    Reid

    Fair up….I’m still wading through the Anglo-Saxon plan on the Project Camelot’ site. So far it doesn’t differ greatly from speculation about a ‘selective pigmentation germ/virus I read about many moons ago. Discussion about the subject seemed to dry up & I’d semi-forgotten about it.

    Same thing?

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  68. mikenmild (10,716 comments) says:

    ‘Those who have something to hide disparage those who are inclined to have them. Because one day the allegation may well be about them.’
    And a conspiracy theory that conveniently explains the debunking of conspiracy theories. Nice.

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  69. SPC (5,392 comments) says:

    All power corrupts. Every time an elected government is thrown out of office it’s because they claimed they would govern in the interests of the majority but this was found to be untrue.

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  70. eszett (2,334 comments) says:

    That Mitchell and Web Look brilliantly sums it all up:

    For good measure a bit of Diana

    And of course Aliens

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  71. Reid (15,943 comments) says:

    That’s the concept nasska. As I understand it it uses the genetic code to identify its targets. Not pigmentation. But that’s the concept. I’ve haven’t looked specifically much into the weapon but have read in passing the US developed it and Israel has it. The US for the Chinese and the Israeli’s for the Arabs. It’s a shame Iranians aren’t Arabs, isn’t it.

    It’s just that if you were those people and you really did exist, then what better way to achieve a population reduction of a few billion by initiating a limited nuclear exchange and unleashing a genetically targeted aerosol spread killer virus. Immediately you paralyse world trade and irradiated and biologically contaminated zones are off limits as are all goods and people from them for the foreseeable future.

    They have underground facilities prepared in which they sit this out while this is going on. There’re all over the world. This is one place where the drug trillions have been disappearing into, over the decades.

    The thing about all of this that many people don’t get, is that you don’t need to actually believe all of this. All you have to do, is hold the honest attitude that it may be true, or it may not be, while you read this stuff.

    I’ve been very open today about what I’ve learned fragment by fragment piece by piece about this stuff over the years and it’s been hitting me gradually not like all in a rush like you have had it today.

    If I was in any of your headspaces I’d be extremely skeptical too and remember I know what it is because I used to be where you are on these topics. But I thought what the hell, DPF decided to post on it so why not explain what it is.

    eszett, here’s a better one on Diana.
    http://www.whale.to/b/diana.html

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  72. SPC (5,392 comments) says:

    Reid, the Arabs in Lebanon and Syria and Palestine have northern Semite DNA in common with Jews (some are even descendants of Jewish converts to Christianity and Islam). Egyptians are not that Semitic either etc.

    I’d relate a conspiracy theory to a different way of seeing and understanding the world to that which is the “common currency/imperial coin” of the time.

    It could be the pre scientific view that lead people to see the sun as revolving around the earth, or people who think that fractional resrvie via private banking is really the only way to manage money – when it is only the best way for it to be done in the interests of some sectors of the population. People once believed in the church’s authority on heavenly science and people still trust those made men/experts in finance.

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  73. RightNow (6,659 comments) says:

    mikenmild (5,687) Says:
    November 24th, 2012 at 8:10 pm
    ‘You have to adopt a certain mindset toward this stuff’
    No shit.

    Succinct. +1

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  74. Griff (6,763 comments) says:

    Right now
    That is better we can discus your the global scientific community and the UN’s hoax on global warming under an applicable heading :lol:

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  75. bhudson (4,734 comments) says:

    As I understand it it uses the genetic code to identify its targets.

    Yes. They got the idea from Frank Herbert’s The White Plague – then made up a plot variation and attached it to the standard ‘world domination’ conspiracy theory.

    Once you understand that, it is all very illuminati(ng)

    They could at least make their conspiracies original!

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  76. RightNow (6,659 comments) says:

    Griff, sorry to keep pushing your buttons about that. Each to their own. I like your view on many topics, that one just not quite. Having said that, I agree with you on parts of it, just not the CO2 being the main cause of warming.

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  77. Reid (15,943 comments) says:

    I’d relate a conspiracy theory to a different way of seeing and understanding the world to that which is the “common currency/imperial coin” of the time.

    Really. See I just don’t understand why everyone doesn’t see the simple reality the world is run by Satanist child abusers who wish to promulgate the Second Coming asap and kill almost every one of us. I mean what about that is hard to understand?
    . :)

    It could be the pre scientific view that lead people to see the sun as revolving around the earth, or people who think that fractional resrvie via private banking is really the only way to manage money – when it is only the best way for it to be done in the interests of some sectors of the population. People once believed in the church’s authority on heavenly science and people still trust those made men/experts in finance.

    I see. Er.

    Crikey.

    Yes?

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  78. Reid (15,943 comments) says:

    There’s lot’s of hardware stuff like this, which is sometimes interesting.

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  79. SPC (5,392 comments) says:

    Reid, re Tavistock Institute etc, the underlying concept is that what happens in the world is organised in advance by those in power (like some god of this world) – this is just a form of fatalism, but with “adversary of God” overtones. This is supposed to appeal to Christians, especially those awaiting an end time advent of a throne of God on earth. Possibly the “conspiracy” is in the spread of the news of this to realise this objective – manipulate the response of Christians. Particularly their fear of secular society change.

    There is the seed of some truth in the fact that managing public perception is what those in (any form) power seek to do, from selling their products to consumers to spreading their political message to voters – and there are professionals who help them to achieve this, from the theoretical to the implementation.

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  80. SPC (5,392 comments) says:

    I am a little surprised that anyone has met enough people who believes in conspiracy theories to have a theory about those who have them.

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  81. SPC (5,392 comments) says:

    Once the intellectual would have said “religion is the opiate of the (underclass) masses” – when offering the underclass an alternative.

    Now the media columnist suggests that in a more secular age people find solace in conspiracy theories – when offering his own take on the way the world is and why. Posing as being in the know (by denying the conspiracy theories are true) makes the columnist more credible.

    The common theme is that those unhappy with the way the world is going, or their own place in it are provided for, via religion or the conspiracy theory. Their “betters” either run the religions or organise the way the world is, whether the underclass like it or not.

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  82. mikenmild (10,716 comments) says:

    There might be some difference between the techniques used by elites to maintain power and what is termed a conspiracy theory. I think a ‘conspiracy theory’ is one that retains some currency despite its wilful ignorance of the evidence disproving the theory. So, there always have been, and always will be, real political conspiracies alongside popular explanations that make sense to irrational people. Establishing the dividing line between these two currents is never precise.

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  83. Manolo (13,367 comments) says:

    Reid, did you wallpaper your entire house with Area 51 posters? :D

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  84. Scott1 (448 comments) says:

    A DNA targeting weapon would result in a hell of a lot of “frendly fire” casualties. It might be hard to get a quorum of scientists willing to create a weapons so likely to misfire and kill their own families.

    But if your illuminati is this powerful I suggest you keep your head down since they apparently have some REALLY awesome Doomsday weapons and you really dont want to back them into a corner…. And so far the seem to be pretty benign rulers – doing almost nothing (in the big scheme of things) with that overwhelming power..

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  85. BigFish (132 comments) says:

    Funny how often paranoia coincides with inflated belief in one’s own intelligence.
    I would love to know what causes the conspiracy theory phenomena in people. It seems to be an extension of the ‘I won’t believe it until I see it with my own eyes’ trait that most of us have.
    Same goes for the correlation between believing in a god and believing in a hidden conspiracy group – both hint at people thinking there are external factors that determine their fate more than a person’s own actions.

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  86. ChardonnayGuy (1,133 comments) says:

    Fundies tend to write awful ‘prophecy’ books about the Second Coming which fingers (…) the European Community much of the time, or did until its membership expanded far beyond the initial ten members from the early seventies until the nineties. Basically, it involves a sashaying generic set of Giant Lesbian Trotskyite Climate Change Muslim Green Ethnic Minority Devils waving sharpened pitchforks chasing hordes of fundies down darkened corridors because they haven’t been barcoded and then subjecting them to continued ridicule and torture over profound continued fashion violations for a seven year period.

    A particularly amusing such series is called “Large Behind”. No, “Lag Behind”. Or something like that.

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  87. chiz (1,119 comments) says:

    BigFish:I would love to know what causes the conspiracy theory phenomena in people.

    Read up on the Dunning-Kruger effect which is one of the factors that is sometimes involved. Conspiracy theorists often lack the self-insight to realize that their knowledge and analytical capabilities aren’t as good as they think they are. This is especially true of conspiracies which involve a technical or scientific component – that vaccines cause autism, that evolution is a secular hoax, GM crops are bad, doctors are suppressing a cure for cancer etc.

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  88. mikenmild (10,716 comments) says:

    Does that mean it is actually Reid who is suffering from the dreaded ‘cognitive dissonance’?

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  89. chiz (1,119 comments) says:

    Yes.

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  90. SPC (5,392 comments) says:

    Manolo, is Area 51 really a conspiracy theory?

    Area 51 is a military base, and a remote detachment of Edwards Air Force Base. It is located in the southern portion of Nevada in the western United States, 83 miles (133 km) north-northwest of Las Vegas. Situated at its center, on the southern shore of Groom Lake, is a large military airfield. The base’s primary purpose is undetermined; however, based on historical evidence, it appears to support development and testing of experimental aircraft and weapons systems.

    Funding of this work is “black budget” and not fully surveillanced on Capitol Hill.

    Deconstruct of the mythology

    The Commander in Chief flies in Air Force One and in it can fly over the 50 states he is President of – White House Capitol Hill is in an area outside of the 50 states, in the nation’s “capital” (no not Wall Street).

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  91. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Sorry guys, just browsing the usual crap in today’s KB and came accross this gem:

    Reid, the Arabs in Lebanon and Syria and Palestine have northern Semite DNA in common with Jews

    No credible (ie independent) evidence produced, however with minor alterations, I would agree with this statement; in fact, it could be regarded as trivially true:

    “Reid, the Arabs in Lebanon and Syria and Palestine have northern West Asiatic Semite DNA in common with [indigenous Middle Eastern] Jews.”

    There, some common ground.

    Now, Ashkenazi Jews are another matter…

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  92. SPC (5,392 comments) says:

    The DNA research shows that most of Ashkenazi and Mizrahi/Sephardim Jews had common Y chromosome DNA. The same ancestral Y chromosome DNA was found amongst Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese.

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  93. Mary Rose (393 comments) says:

    chiz >This is especially true of conspiracies which involve a technical or scientific component – that vaccines cause autism, that evolution is a secular hoax, GM crops are bad, doctors are suppressing a cure for cancer etc.

    Two of those are conspiracy theories: people conspiring on evolution, on cancer.

    The other two are the general public who don’t claim any scientific knowledge faced with scientists saying conflicting things.
    Same as global warming.

    Parents didn’t know for sure if the autism scare was true – but the possibility (before it was fully discredited) that there was a risk scared them into erring on the side of caution. Sadly, leaving their kids exposed to the very real risk of measles etc.
    They weren’t over-estimating their own abilities: far from it. It was: “We don’t know enough to decide, so we won’t risk it,.”

    I think to label them as falling for a conspiracy theory (which it wasn’t anyway: just a flawed scientific study) is unfair and unkind. They were just trying to do what they thought was best for their children, with limited and conflicting information available.

    GM crops, meanwhile, are magic beans, over-hyped by agro-chemical companies, who’ve pumped billions into them over decades, without much to show for it.

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  94. chiz (1,119 comments) says:

    Mary, you clearly haven’t read some of the anti-vaccine literature. Vaccines, you see, are part of a scam by Big Pharma, like water fluoridation, and don’t actually work and doctors only say they do because they paid to say so etc. Oh, and it has apparently been proven, no less, that vaccines cause autism but powerful interests don’t want this to be known. The link, tenuous and unlikely to begin with, has since been disproven, but you wouldn’t know this if you read the anti-vaccine propaganda where this claim is still circulating.

    And GM crops have actually benefited many of their growers. But read the anti-GE literature and you can find out how results are being suppressed, that Clinton and Blair were personally involved in trying to suppress one paper, that Monsanto et al are deliberately contaminating crops and farms with their seed etc.

    You may be right that many members of the general public don’t know where to stand on a particular subject but the campaigners do, and they are certainly conspiracy theorists.

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