The battle for the Internet continues

December 10th, 2012 at 11:00 am by David Farrar

Joseph Menn of Reuters reports at Stuff:

A landmark attempt to set global rules for overseeing the Internet threatened to fall apart on Friday as a rift pitting the United States and some Western countries against the rest of the world widened, participants in the talks said.

A 12-day conference of the International Telecommunications Union, taking place in Dubai, is supposed to result in the adoption of a new international treaty governing trans-border communications.

But in a critical session at the midpoint of the conference on Friday, delegates refused to adopt a US-Canadian proposal to limit the treaty’s scope to traditional communications carriers and exclude Internet companies such as Google, the said on its website.

Further complicating the negotiations was what a US official at the talks called the “surprise” announcement of an accord among some Arab states, Russia and other countries to pursue treaty amendments that are expected to include Internet provisions unacceptable to the United States

A still-secret draft of the coalition’s proposals is to be introduced soon by the United Arab Emirates, the official said.

I have a simple test on Internet issues that rarely fails me. If the proposal comes from Russia, China or an Arab state, then it will be really really bad.

The emergence of the new coalition, whose members are generally seeking greater Internet censorship and surveillance, is likely to harden battle lines separating those countries from the United States and some allies in Western Europe.

And New Zealand!

The United States and others objected to the introduction of complex new material midway through the conference.

This is the danger. That something get slipped into a working group under the radar. They have no rules requiring proposals to be made in advance, let alone in public.

That would potentially isolate America and its allies from much of the world, and technology leaders fear that the rest of the globe would agree on actions such as identifying political dissidents who use the Internet and perhaps trying to alter the Net’s architecture to permit more control.

Identifying political dissidents who use the Internet? Sounds like the Labour party caucus!

The 147-year-old ITU, which is now under the auspices of the United Nations, historically has set technology standards and established payment customs for international phone calls. But under Secretary-General Hamadoun Touré, it has inched toward cyber-security and electronic content issues, arguing that Internet traffic goes over phone lines and is therefore within its purview.

Which is nonsense. The proportion of the Internet that goes over copper phone lines is diminishing anyway. The future is over fibre, plus mobile, satellite and wireless.

At the ITU meeting, the American delegation had counted on support from at least Japan, Australia and other affluent democracies.

But its effort to stave off wholesale changes has been hindered by complications in Western Europe, where some countries were supporting a change to the economic model that would have Google, Facebook and others pay for at least some of the costs of Internet transmission.

Equally repugnant. They already pay for website hosting and for connections to their local ISPs. What the telcos want is termination charges like you have for toll calls, so countries and telcos can collect revenue on not just their customers, but on people who send data to their customers. It would cripple the Internet model.

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46 Responses to “The battle for the Internet continues”

  1. thedavincimode (6,759 comments) says:

    No doubt the UN is active behind the scenes putsching for this also.

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  2. Redbaiter (8,791 comments) says:

    “I have a simple test on Internet issues that rarely fails me. If the proposal comes from Russia, China or an Arab state, then it will be really really bad.”

    Well maybe.

    But the point is, who will win out?

    I have no faith in any present day government to go out on a limb for freedom of expression.

    The anti-free speech mood that prevails in the west is appalling.

    Pravda now is a more open reporter of news than many western media outlets.

    That is how bad it is.

    The political class all over the globe is now in considerable fear of the internet.

    I wouldn’t be surprised to see a complete surrender to the authoritarians.

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  3. thedavincimode (6,759 comments) says:

    Is this my fault too?

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  4. Redbaiter (8,791 comments) says:

    You’re as good an example of a liberal /progressive National Party white ant as could be asked for.

    You have never fought against tyranny.

    Rather you have willingly participated in advancing it.

    By enthusiastically buying into every evil anti-freedom of expression idea out there, and virtually marching in lockstep with the one party staters of the left.

    So yes.

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  5. bhudson (4,740 comments) says:

    Yet another reason why world government is wrong.

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  6. Manolo (13,739 comments) says:

    Watch the enemies of liberty and freedom of expression get together in their fight against open communication.
    I expect the Luddites and the Labour Party to support any censorious UN initiative.

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  7. labrator (1,850 comments) says:

    It’s all quite laughable, good luck trying ring fence the Internet.

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  8. James Stephenson (2,172 comments) says:

    It would cripple the Internet model.

    Well someone needs to pay for the exponentially rising amount of data that the networks are having to carry, otherwise the Over-the-tops are going to have to start buying telcos if they want to reach their customers.

    Anyone want Google to be their ISP and carrier as well?

    [DPF: Apart from the fact the cost of data keeps dropping, the customers of ISPs pay through their access fees.]

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  9. thedavincimode (6,759 comments) says:

    You have never fought against tyranny.

    That recurring wet dream again?

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  10. Redbaiter (8,791 comments) says:

    Oh fuck off you pathetic little dribbling coward. Every thread is fucked up by you and your creepy obsession and your half smart off topic comments.

    [DPF: Tone it down please]

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  11. thedavincimode (6,759 comments) says:

    No need to be offensive.

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  12. barry (1,317 comments) says:

    One of the beauties of the Net and its associated technology is that there are endless opportunities for the independant minded to find ways around various methods of control.
    Yes some call these people hackers, but they are the defense against all the various leaders around the world who want to shut everyone down (- the NZ Labour party seemingly being part of that group!!)

    I have no doubt that as soon as new controls come in, there will be plenty of ways to hide ones real IP details

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  13. Redbaiter (8,791 comments) says:

    [DPF: Tone it down please]

    Tone it down??

    FFS..!!

    How about this obsessive little fag and his constant off topic attacks on Redbaiter that upset the flow of almost every comments thread?

    You approve of that do you? That’s OK is it?

    I know he’s one of your National Party buddies, so apparently that means he can do as he likes here while anyone who tells him what an arsehole he is is at risk of demerits.

    Why don’t you exercise some fucking objectivity and tell him to tone it down?

    The arsehole desperately needs therapy if you ask me.

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  14. PaulL (5,981 comments) says:

    @James Stephenson: Google already have one of the largest IP networks in the world (3rd largest? Can’t remember). When you search on Google, it travels on the internet to the nearest point of presence, usually in a metro city close to you. Then on the Google network to around 10 data centres, the results are merged, then it comes back on the Google network to that point of presence. The amount of actual internet involved is very small. That’s why Google is always faster than everything else (when you do a search, at the top it reports how long it took to generate the page).

    Google are also one of the largest server manufacturers in the world (4th largest?). Every server they make goes into a Google data centre. Google host cheaper than pretty much anyone else – in short, they can buy another internet company, move it onto Google infrastructure, and start making a profit where it was previously making a loss.

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  15. Fletch (6,359 comments) says:

    I reckon that if the power-that-be start regulating the net, a new underground darknet will be set up (if it hasn’t been already).
    You can’t stop the inventiveness of hackers.

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  16. thedavincimode (6,759 comments) says:

    Now now Russell.

    Why don’t you just calm down, pop the kettle on, have a nice cup of tea and think happy thoughts of past victories – like causing the traffic jam on the Tauranga bridge.

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  17. Redbaiter (8,791 comments) says:

    Why don’t you do your mincing somewhere else.

    This is a thread on internet regulation. You’ve said nothing on that issue in four comments. Preferring instead to obsess over Redbaiter.

    Al Queerda- the cowardly band of homosexuals who daily attempt to suppress discussion of “unapproved” ideas on Kiwiblog.

    Pity your blog based terrorism is so ineffective tho.

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  18. PaulL (5,981 comments) says:

    @Fletch: already exists. Try the onion router (TOR) or various VPN protocols.

    I do wonder whether the US would prefer it the way it is for more nefarious reasons. That is to say, the Russians and Iranians don’t have enough computer power to track people on the internet, so they’d like to make it explicit. In doing so, they’ll drive the moderately bad bastards underground (the real bad bastards are already underground).

    The US has enough computer power to track the internet as it is – they know mostly who is doing what. Pushing Joe Average onto more secure arrangements would act against US interests – they’d lose the ability to track them.

    Of course, that’s me wearing my tin foil hat. Other than occasionally using zend2.com to obfuscate my IP address and allow me to read more than 5 Economist articles in a week, I can’t be bothered doing anything serious to protect my privacy. If these proposals went through (and presumably in countries that already have rules like this, such as China) there are probably quite simple web sites or applications that make this easy.

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  19. RRM (9,916 comments) says:

    Redbaiter (1,586) Says:
    December 10th, 2012 at 12:14 pm

    Why don’t you do your mincing somewhere else.

    This is a thread on internet regulation. You’ve said nothing on that issue in four comments. Preferring instead to obsess over Redbaiter.

    Al Queerda- the cowardly band of homosexuals who daily attempt to suppress discussion of “unapproved” ideas on Kiwiblog.

    Pity your blog based terrorism is so ineffective tho.

    His comment (the first comment of the thread) was on topic.

    The first comment by YOU addressing HIM was a pointless rant accusing DVM of complicity in some generalised progressive, homosexual, tyrannical white-ant of western civilisation and freedom of expression.

    :lol: LOL

    Cognitive dissonance doesn’t even begin to describe it.

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  20. thedavincimode (6,759 comments) says:

    Please RRM. I can’t afford to have a lefty sticking up for me. He might call me names.

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  21. Redbaiter (8,791 comments) says:

    Oh bullshit. And how dare you write here posing as an objective umpire.

    You’re another obsessive. Where’s your comment on internet regulation??

    My first comment related to the issue. Its was as usual Da Vinci’s response that was personally targeted.

    I assure you, I really do not want to be bothered by trolls like you and Davinci. Honestly, I find you both to be boring uninteresting cowards.

    On the other hand, I am genuinely interested in reading comments from people discussing the subject of the thread, and it pains me immensely that I need to write here correcting the lies and distortions of disturbed people like you. Just get over your obsession or get some therapy.

    This is a thread on internet regulation. You two in your insane obsession, have taken it far off topic.

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  22. thor42 (971 comments) says:

    Herr Klarkenfuhrer’s buddies at the ITU can pry the Internet from my cold, dead hands.

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  23. thedavincimode (6,759 comments) says:

    it pains me immensely that I need to write here correcting the lies and distortions of disturbed people like you

    Your pain laid bare for the world to see Russell. Oh, the humanity.

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  24. Redbaiter (8,791 comments) says:

    Your selfishness laid bare is more like it.

    Don’t you think people have a right to discuss internet regulation without a rain of off topic disruptions from narcissists like you?

    Its always all about you.

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  25. thedavincimode (6,759 comments) says:

    Look Russell, I’m simply not prepared to continue this exchange because you have taken it entirely off-thread.

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  26. Redbaiter (8,791 comments) says:

    I can see you dripping with self absorption and thinking you are so witty and clever. You’re not. You’re just a boring, selfish and self obsessed arsehole.

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  27. RRM (9,916 comments) says:

    Redbaiter (1,590) Says:
    December 10th, 2012 at 12:46 pm

    I can see you dripping with self absorption and thinking you are so witty and clever. You’re not. You’re just a selfish and self obsessed arsehole.

    Another quality, on-topic post. What a great thread on internet regulation this is turning into.

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  28. thedavincimode (6,759 comments) says:

    You see, you are just completely obsessive. Anything to say on topic?

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  29. Redbaiter (8,791 comments) says:

    This was a good subject with a lot of interesting comments but it has been completely ruined by two selfish obsessive loons. Who ruin so many other threads in exactly the same way.

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  30. thedavincimode (6,759 comments) says:

    Is that a no? Do you want to stick with your predictable re-cycling of your present 1,591 comments and the 10,000 odd before you had your hissy and in which you say exactly the same thing but simply shuffle the words around to try and fit the topic?

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  31. Redbaiter (8,791 comments) says:

    Davinci, when are you going to understand that I don’t give one fucking damn what your opinion is on myself or any issue. Its not me following you around like some infatuated schoolboy. You’re the silly little fag with the big problem. Get a life or get some therapy.

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  32. RRM (9,916 comments) says:

    Wedbaiter (1,591) Says:
    December 10th, 2012 at 12:51 pm

    This was a good subject with a lot of interesting comments but it has been completely ruined by two selfish obsessive loons. Who ruin so many other threads in exactly the same way.

    Number of off-topic posts on this thread by Wedbaiter: 9

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  33. PaulL (5,981 comments) says:

    @Redbaiter, when you were a child were you often crying to your mother “Billy’s looking at me funny”? And did she often say “just ignore him and he’ll stop it”? Because that advice is still good advice.

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  34. Redbaiter (8,791 comments) says:

    Oh gawd, here’s another “objective” referee.

    Congratulations Al Queerda, you’ve successfully killed off any on topic discussion on this thread.

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  35. RRM (9,916 comments) says:

    Number of off-topic posts on this thread by Wedbaiter: 10

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  36. thedavincimode (6,759 comments) says:

    RRM

    Since you’re counting, how many original comments that incorporate new material?

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  37. Redbaiter (8,791 comments) says:

    Number of on topic posts by RRM?

    ZERO.

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  38. RRM (9,916 comments) says:

    Number of off-topic posts on this thread by Wedbaiter: 11

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  39. Redbaiter (8,791 comments) says:

    Wow, you know I try not to stereotype homosexuals as nasty petty little narcissists but its really difficult not to do that when you see them behaving like Davinci behaves.

    Totally destroying a good thread for the sake of his own selfishness.

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  40. RRM (9,916 comments) says:

    Reference for DVM homosexuality please? Or BS.

    Oh and
    Number of off-topic posts on this thread by Wedbaiter: 12

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  41. thedavincimode (6,759 comments) says:

    … no, nothing new there …

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  42. BigFish (132 comments) says:

    Looking through this thread I can understand why there are regulators who wish to strip away any remaining web anonymity in the name of preventing cyber-bullying.
    Doesn’t mean that’s right, but there are people who provide the ammunition that helps justify moves like these.

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  43. tristanb (1,127 comments) says:

    James:

    Anyone want Google to be their ISP and carrier as well?

    Fuck yes. It’d be a hell of a lot faster and cheaper than what we’re used to.

    I agree with others – the ITU needs to go fuck itself (the rest of the UN too).

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  44. tedbear (145 comments) says:

    [DPF: I have a simple test on Internet issues that rarely fails me. If the proposal comes from Russia, China or an Arab state, then it will be really really bad.]
    So what do you propose DPF? Let USA have total control and make all the rules?
    Remember that classic statement “You’re either with us or you’re against us.”
    And where did that get us? Exactly no effingwhere.Well, that’s not entirely true, it did manage to kill thousands and create massive destruction which led to many rebuild contracts for the good ol boys and create jobs and great wealth for the bomb making factories in USA.

    Following your simple test DPF, you must be in agreement with the new USA bill that proposes we give the power to censor the internet to the entertainment industry.

    What chance therefore of Kim Dotcom and John Ossenmacher getting justice and winning their cases before that bill is passed.

    Then DPF, you have the gall to state “there is the danger that something might get slipped into a working group under the radar”.

    Do you have any other simple tests that you think the world should follow?

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  45. OneTrack (3,088 comments) says:

    “So what do you propose DPF? Let USA have total control and make all the rules?”

    Like they have been in control since the US invented the internet in the first place. That’s how we got to where we are now. Sounds pretty good to me.

    I know,let’s change it, because some people say things that aren’t “approved”, or because we want to collect some more taxes. No thanks.

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  46. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    The UK may be fighting to protect the internet from political censorship in international arena – but at home, is this left to Liberal Democrats?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20668953

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