General Debate 1 April 2013

April 1st, 2013 at 8:00 am by Kokila Patel
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250 Responses to “General Debate 1 April 2013”

  1. Keeping Stock (9,788 comments) says:

    Received a media release from Martyn Bradbury overnight confirming the outcome of some interesting negotiations over the last few weeks; it’s going to stir up a right hornet’s nest. I would love to have been a fly on the wall when he told the Maritime Union what his plans were!

    http://keepingstock.blogspot.co.nz/2013/04/breaking-news-bradbury-sees-light.html

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  2. bhudson (4,720 comments) says:

    Your moral compass has gone seriously awry the day you start believing that a holocaust denier adds value

    [ref GD yesterday]

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  3. Andrew (67 comments) says:

    Wow! Great they are wanting a more balanced blog, but the comments are gonna get really aggressive.

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  4. nasska (9,519 comments) says:

    I smell the aroma of rat over Bradbury’s revelation….it is the 1st of April.

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  5. Andrew (67 comments) says:

    Ha! I’m so gullable!

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  6. bhudson (4,720 comments) says:

    nasska – spot on.

    The only thing missing from that press release was a “yeah right.”

    (and that it is neither clever nor funny.)

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  7. Pete George (21,812 comments) says:

    Good to see Jesse Ryder’s health improving. But his assualt highlights the potential effects of violence, on the victim, on their ongoing health, on their livelihood and career, and the flow on effect with associated family, friends and employment associates.

    And there will also be effect on the alleged attackers, whose lives will likey be changed significantly by the media and public attention, and the sentences – especially if they get prison terms.

    And violence like this is totally unnecessary and uncalled for.

    Ryder type violence can have major after effects

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  8. Michael (880 comments) says:

    Here’s Barack Obama making his latest remarks in support of gay marriage:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ

    Good to see him not fudging on the issue.

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  9. flipper (3,270 comments) says:

    Anyone else notice the (predicted!) TV One copy cat coverage of the Sky casino wandering children bullshit first run yesterday by their partner, the SoH?

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  10. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    bhudson, If people did not challenge the official account of events, then KB would not exist. Your moral compass appears to be aligned with North Korea, Mao’s China and the USSR, all regimes where the only available construction of events were the offical ones and where those who questioned it were killed or jailed. We are allowed to openly challenge the official story of the tens of millions who died in those regimes, but not the propaganda regarding one tiny group of the 75 million people who died in WWII.

    Did you watch those videos, that Reid posted, and do you have anything to say about the points raised ? Or do you simply seek to shame people into not being exposed to the facts ?

    Why does the holocaust invoke this sort of reaction? Even if we accept the most inflated and hysterical estimates of the number who perished, it does not even come close to be the worse event in modern times. The Russians killed more in the Ukraine in a year, than the entire holocaust. They were the first to have concentration camps and millions died in them. Mao killed the equivalent of the entire death toll of WWII and committed unspeakable horrors. We can openly question the accounts of all those horrors, but not the holocaust. That tells me something is not right.

    If you want to break the WWII dead down by religion, most of the dead were Christians, around 100 billion trillion of them. (if you question that figure you are a Denier and approve of killing 100 billion trillion people and are a neo nazi apologist)

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  11. Chuck Bird (4,410 comments) says:

    Did anyone see “Sunday” at 7pm yesterday and the item about the slave Labour in China? Should our government have a system where people convicted in China can serve their time in NZ? I think it is appalling how NZ left a NZ citizen to be touched like this man.

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  12. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    Fake hoax rag displayed to the gullible feeble brained followers of an imaginary being:

    “The Turin Shroud – which is revered by many Christians as the burial cloth of Jesus Christ – has made its debut on modern media platforms.

    Italy’s Rai TV broadcast for the first time images of the linen cloth bearing a faint brownish image of what appears to be a man’s body.”

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21984018

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  13. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    Michael (677) Says:
    April 1st, 2013 at 8:26 am
    Here’s Barack Obama making his latest remarks in support of gay marriage:

    Michael, your link went to some dancing singing gay guy with no talent.

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  14. calendar girl (1,108 comments) says:

    “And there will also be effect on the alleged attackers, whose lives will likey be changed significantly by the media and public attention, and the sentences – especially if they get prison terms.”

    Perhaps they had an option in the matter. Jesse Ryder appears not to have had such an option.

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  15. hj (5,692 comments) says:

    Lewis Mumford was one of the first to ask ecological questions about cities and their sustainability. His 1965 article, “The Natural History of Urbanization,” is precisely on the ecology of urbanization.(6) He noted the dependencies of cities on their hinterlands, and the steady extension of their influences aided by the growing power of transportation technology. He pointed out that the city story, from Nineveh to New York, is one of increasingly substituting the artificial for the natural. Technology rearranges environments so that nature is never experienced directly. In losing connections with Earth within the city, inhabitants also lose track of Earth-relationships without. An illusion of complete independence from nature is fostered, and the phrase “urban sustainability” is no longer recognized as oxymoronic. Mumford expressed pessimism about modern large cities because of their dependence on plunder of the non-urban hinterland. ”
    http://www.ecospherics.net/pages/RoweCities.html

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  16. kowtow (6,706 comments) says:

    chuckb

    I saw them advertise the China story but didn’t bother.

    Both Labour and national bent as far over as anyone could to get China acredited as an open economy and the reward was the free trade trade deal.

    That’s a first we cannot be proud of .

    We desperatley sucked up to the Celestial Emperor and have been kowtowing ever since. Shameful.

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  17. Pauleastbay (5,030 comments) says:

    Kea

    Sir Max Hastings is speaking on WWII at the Auckland Writers Festival in May. I would suggest he has a wee bit more credibility as an historian than Irving.

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  18. hj (5,692 comments) says:

    Did anyone see “Sunday” at 7pm
    …….
    read a comment about that on another source and someone asked “did he have a criminal record?”… leaving you with the impression he did (although he may have been being smeared)?

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  19. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    kowtow, I have very very strong views on communists and the horrors they committed on the Chinese people.

    But the fact remains that free trade and a more open economy has improved the lives of hundreds of millions in China and helped make it part of the global community. The Chinese people now know what is on offer in the rest of the world and are less tolerant of totalitarian behaviour and propaganda.

    Isolating those countries is not the way. You end up with North Korea. We want them on board so we can lead by example.

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  20. bhudson (4,720 comments) says:

    Did you watch those videos, that Reid posted

    Kea,

    I would as much watch a video of that individual as I would read the works of Pol Pot. Aside from having to listen to the deranged arguments of Irving, there would no doubt also be some covert illuminati symbols professing 9/11 to be the work of their reptilian shape-shifting allies, given Reid’s proclivity.

    If you find Irving to be so interesting one can only imagine you would be keen to get hold of footage of, and material from, the great Adolf himself

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  21. big bruv (12,355 comments) says:

    Chuck

    I did indeed watch the slave labour piece. As far as I am concerned it does not matter to me at all if prisoners are forced to work. Hell, we should be doing the same thing here.

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  22. OneTrack (1,967 comments) says:

    “And there will also be effect on the alleged attackers, whose lives will likey be changed significantly by the media and public attention, and the sentences – especially IF they get prison terms.”

    But they are such good boys really.

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  23. Pete George (21,812 comments) says:

    Let your hair down with Monkton.

    HEAR YE, HEAR YE, HEAR YE!

    The Grand Wizard of the NZ Flat Earth Society, Nathaniel Pipe-Blower, has called on his flock and their friends to give Lord Monckton a rousing welcome to Auckland at Monckton’s public lecture at the University Business School, 7 – 9 pm on April 5th.

    As we Flat Earthers have endured centuries of oppression and ridicule from scientists with their so-called “evidence” that the Earth is round, we sympathise with Lord Monckton’s struggle, and wish to offer our support and friendship.

    Just to be clear, we want to be FRIENDS with Lord Monckton and WORK TOGETHER TO BATTLE THE CONSPIRACY between the Bad Scientists and the Evil Greens.

    We will be handing out a scroll with our message, engaging in courtly conversation with members of the public, and expressing fulsome admiration for the Great Man himself – after all, he claims to a Nobel laureate who has found the cure for AIDS!

    Now for the fun part: Flat Earthers often dress in medieval garb, e.g. as damsels, knights, lords & ladies, priests, peasants, jesters, wizards and wenches.

    Flat Earthers also love music and entertainment, so it would be great to have pipers / minstrels / jugglers or clowns.

    Most of all, Flat Earthers know how to MAKE MERRY! Feel free to let your hair down.

    We will be meeting in the quad outside the Fisher and Paykel Lecture Theatre at 6.30 pm (or in the foyer, if wet).

    The (free) lecture starts at 7 pm; Flat Earthers will likely be so impressed by Monckton’s total awesomeness that they will clap and cheer the brilliance of his thought!

    http://openparachute.wordpress.com/2013/03/31/april-fools-and-agenda-21/

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  24. Colville (1,774 comments) says:

    There is actuall significant rainfall in the forecast! Yippee!

    *disclaimer. This is not an April 1st joke!

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  25. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    Pauleastbay (3,455) Says:
    April 1st, 2013 at 8:53 am
    Kea

    Sir Max Hastings is speaking on WWII at the Auckland Writers Festival in May. I would suggest he has a wee bit more credibility as an historian than Irving.

    If I accept unquestioningly what you have claimed (I do not) it does not detract from the point I have made. My point is not about the merits of Irvings claims, but about the reaction to those who digress from the government sanctioned announcements on the subject.

    Can you name another area of history that will see you imprisoned for researching it independently ?

    BTW, Do you agree that a billion zillion Hindus were tortured to death by the Fijians last year, or are you a DENIER ? (and therefore do not care and must condone the deaths)

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  26. Longknives (4,048 comments) says:

    “And there will also be effect on the alleged attackers, whose lives will likey be changed significantly by the media and public attention, and the sentences – especially IF they get prison terms.”

    Who gives a flying fuck about these thugs? Society must be protected from them. Locking them away means people like you or I have less chance of dying violently on the Street next time we wander into Scribe’s ‘Hood’…

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  27. flipper (3,270 comments) says:

    Pauleastbay…

    I wonder if Kea has been to Auschwitz. If not, would it not be a good idea for Kiwiblog to send him? :)

    I am not Jewish, but I brought back from that horrible place, a pictorial record that made me “sick”. It is now in the Wellington Holocaust Museum.

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  28. kowtow (6,706 comments) says:

    I’ve not said anything against free trade.
    But don’t pretend there’s anything “free” or open about anything in China.

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  29. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    Kea,

    I would as much watch a video of that individual as I would read the works of Pol Pot. Aside from having to listen to the deranged arguments of Irving

    bhudson , You start by saying you have not heard his arguments, then go on to say that those arguments are “deranged”

    Can you explain how you came to feel so strongly about views you have never heard expressed ?

    I will remind you that Pol Pot and Hitler were only able to do what they did due to people like yourself who did not question the government sanctioned construction of events. So don’t bother with a run for the moral high ground on this. It is people just like you who are behind every large scale abuse of human rights, not people like me.

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  30. Pauleastbay (5,030 comments) says:

    Kea

    Irvings perfectly entitled to research, its his hate speech that gets him in the shit. Credibility he has none

    A quick quote from Wiki:

    Irving’s reputation as an historian was widely discredited after he brought an unsuccessful libel case against the American historian Deborah Lipstadt and Penguin Books.[4] The English court found that Irving was an active Holocaust denier, antisemite, and racist, who “associates with right-wing extremists who promote neo-Nazism”,[5] and that he had “for his own ideological reasons persistently and deliberately misrepresented and manipulated historical evidence”.

    You spent a good portion of yesterday giving it to the God botherers regards lack of credibility for their beliefs and here we have you defending a loathesome indiviual with no credibility.

    Irving has been a life long anti-semite , a proveable fact. His lack of credibilty starts there.

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  31. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    flipper (1,453) Says:
    April 1st, 2013 at 9:06 am
    Pauleastbay…

    I wonder if Kea has been to Auschwitz.

    I get it. You are unable to refute my points, so you appeal to emotion. What is next “think of the children” ?

    Do you think Kea should be thrown in Jail for supporting another persons right to freedom of expression ?

    I suggest you have more in common with the Nazis.

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  32. Pete George (21,812 comments) says:

    Greens launch discission paper on work-life balance.

    The Green Party today launched a discussion paper to promote better work-life balance for Aotearoa/New Zealand.

    “New Zealander’s work some of the longest hours in the world and it’s something we need to address if we are serious about promoting NZ as a place to have a great life style, said Holly Walker, Green Party Work-Life balance spokesperson.

    “We also have a real issue with brain drain in this country – we can’t compete on wages with bigger economies but we could. For this to be real we need address a work culture of long hours.”

    The Green Party discussion paper covers three main areas:

    - Promotion campaign and resources for work-life balance
    - Development of at least 8 additional statutory holidays to ensure coverage throughout the year.
    - Provision for space in work places for naps, mediatation, yoga and other stress relief techniques.

    “Firstly, the message needs to get out there to the public, this could involve a website and resources being available in all work places.

    “We also need lots of billboards everywhere to promote that its ok to work normal hours. They could say things like – “work to live, or live to work?” “take a break, take it easy”, said Ms Walker, “we are open to other suggestions”.

    “I also think that high profile people such as MPs, broadcasters and sport stars need to take the lead and promote cultural change. by wearing t-shirts or placards with appropriate messages like “Samuel Parnell says – 40 hours is cool”, and “Be a winner and have a nap!

    “Personally, I’m going to get a shirt and maybe a sign that says you’ll be dead one day, enjoy today!

    Green Party Meditation spokesperson Catherine Delahunty, “Parliament would be so much better off if we could all do some mediation and yoga together, and I think that’s true for everyone. It’s about stress relief and positive vibes. People will be cynical but, man, it could make a real difference. Just give it a go I say.”

    Green Party Holidays spokesperson Gareth Hughes added “We also need more statutory holidays and plenty of them! Everyone loves holidays, and they are good for the environment, economy and people. It’s a win-win-win proposal, and those are the best kind!

    The Green Party MPs have chosen to sponsor the following holidays in the consultation process.

    Proposed additional statutory holidays

    March 24: Look after the environment day (all)
    April 16 – Rebirth the Earth (Catherine Delahunty)
    May 5 – Buy local, Eat local day (Eugenie Sage)
    May 11: Bob Marley’s commemoration day (all)
    June 20: Love your cycle (not in a dirty way) day (Julie Anne Genter)
    July 12: Bigger words are better day (Kennedy Graham/Eugenie Sage)
    September 20: Dave’s dancing day (David Clendon)
    October 11: Dolphin love day (Gareth Hughes)
    April 1: April’s fool’s day (all)

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  33. Pauleastbay (5,030 comments) says:

    Early in September 2004, Michael Cullen, the deputy prime minister of New Zealand, announced that Irving would not be permitted to visit the country, where he had been invited by the National Press Club to give a series of lectures under the heading “The Problems of Writing about World War II in a Free Society”.

    One thing that Cullen did I agree with.

    Kea,

    I notice you are starting to refer to yourself in the third person. With Dime its original, with you its a sign that things are deteriorating.

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  34. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    Pauleastbay, did you listen to the videos posted by Reid, or are you (once again) parroting what you have been told ?

    I am not impressed by half wit posers who have not even bothered to hear the arguments, and simply mouth what they have been told by the authorities. Pricks like you are what caused the Holocaust. Trying to organise people like myself to do those things is like herding cats. But you are pre-programmed to bow down to authority without question or independent thought.

    Go join your brothers in North Korea, they need you. You can ride your high horse over there.

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  35. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    Oh Paul you forgot to answer my question :

    Do you agree that a billion zillion Hindus were tortured to death by the Fijians last year, or are you a DENIER ? (and therefore do not care and must condone the deaths and are an evil man)

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  36. Pete George (21,812 comments) says:

    Kea: “I am not impressed by half wit posers who have not even bothered to hear the arguments”

    Irony of the day.

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  37. Komata (971 comments) says:

    Re:
    March 24: Look after the environment day (all)
    April 16 – Rebirth the Earth (Catherine Delahunty)
    May 5 – Buy local, Eat local day (Eugenie Sage)
    May 11: Bob Marley’s commemoration day (all)
    June 20: Love your cycle (not in a dirty way) day (Julie Anne Genter)
    July 12: Bigger words are better day (Kennedy Graham/Eugenie Sage)
    September 20: Dave’s dancing day (David Clendon)
    October 11: Dolphin love day (Gareth Hughes)
    April 1: April’s fool’s day (all)

    They have got to be kidding, but, being gweens they are apparently not (oh, wait, of course, it’s the ‘Youth vote’ they are targetting)

    If this ISN’T an April Fools Day joke, the only question is:

    Do these people honestly and sincerely believe they can govern (or were they on weed or some other mind-altering drug when they wrote-up the list?)

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  38. Short Shriveled and Slightly to the Left (759 comments) says:

    seriously Komata?….. facepalm

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  39. Short Shriveled and Slightly to the Left (759 comments) says:

    Dunedin leading the country
    http://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/251429/pilot-programme-targets-feral-cats

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  40. Pauleastbay (5,030 comments) says:

    Kea

    Firstly, which one is it, am I a nazi or a north Korean communist?. If I was a nazi I wouldn’t be bagging an individual such as Irving would I? I’d have thought someone as erudite as yourself would have figured that out

    Secondly, freedom of speech does not give us the right to say anything we want without repercussions from society, this is a more I’d have thought that was pretty basic and easily understood.

    Thirdly, Irving has less credibility than those who believe that the bible is literal, they have their faith, Irving is just wilfully ignorant.

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  41. Short Shriveled and Slightly to the Left (759 comments) says:

    Funny reading Kea go on about believing what you’re told without researching yourself and yet he believes the Nazi’s were socialist because they said they were in their name……..

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  42. Chuck Bird (4,410 comments) says:

    Chuck
    I did indeed watch the slave labour piece. As far as I am concerned it does not matter to me at all if prisoners are forced to work. Hell, we should be doing the same thing here.

    BB, that comment confirms what I thought. You are not a very nice person. If someone could watch that and think we should have torture in our prisons they lost any credibility. Those that gave you the thumbs up may have just agreed with prisoners being force to work but if you think the type of torture shown in the documentary is acceptable you are one sick puppy.

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  43. Judith (5,660 comments) says:

    It doesn’t matter whether the Nazi’s were socialists, or bunny worshiping jedi’s – the atrocities of what they did should never, and can never be excused by some of the ridiculous arguments and justification people try to make (including some idiots on here). The day we all forget the severity and accept the excuses will be the end of humankind as a socialised being – and we revert back to being the animals of our origin. If we do not remember the horror exactly as it was, if we do not teach our children about it, and if we start to use it as means of entertainment and not remembrance – then all those people that died and suffered was for nothing – because when we forget, it will happen again.

    The kinds of conversations I see here regarding WWII (and WWI) make my skin crawl at times.

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  44. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    Pauleastbay , your getting desperate. Telling lies and avoiding questions. I did not say you are a Nazi, I pointed out the unquestioning obedience to authority, such as you display, allowed the Nazis to do as they did.

    I gather you have not heard the views you are so passionate about opposing. So I wonder what informs your point of view, given your self confessed total lack of knowledge.

    I am going to plant my lettuce now. I expect them to show more individual thought than you have this morning.

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  45. David Garrett (5,134 comments) says:

    PEB: It is quite incorrect to claim Irving has “no credibility”. Well before the furore over his holocaust denial – and I am not sure exactly what it is he denies – he was lauded as the author of “Hitler’s war” and several other books on WW II, and for his proving that the so-called “Hitler Diaries”, which had been “authenticated” by Sir Hugh Trevor-Roper, were in fact fakes.

    For more than thirty years he has said there is no genuine document in existence which proves Hitler knew about what was happening in the camps, and offered a cash reward for anyone who can produce such a document. It has never been claimed.

    I believe he has gone much further than that, and said the exterminations in camps like auschwitz didn’t happen at all – if that is so, then he is clearly wrong. Does anyone know just what he has said on the subject?

    PG: Have a look at the end of GD yesterday, where I respond to your rather odd comment that suggests I am threatening you by asking how you earn your living.

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  46. kowtow (6,706 comments) says:

    Irving.

    I don’t agree with him ,but banning people from talking is extremely dangerous.Gaoling them even more so.
    No shortage of and growing number of examples of western govts entering very dangerous territory.

    All part of actions by once democratic govts to control the populace.

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  47. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    Judith, who justified the Nazi atrocities ? I have never seen that on KB.

    Short Shriveled and Slightly to the Left, I do not think the Nazis were socialists because the word is in their name. I think that because of their socialist policies and actions. Go read a book or at least spend 5 minutes on google you lazy fool.

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  48. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    Fuck at least Kowtow “gets it” :)

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  49. flipper (3,270 comments) says:

    Judith, PauleastBay, Shorty S and PG ….. well said.

    Being Easter, Kea (aka the Nazi-loving raptor), forgot to take its medication.

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  50. bhudson (4,720 comments) says:

    You start by saying you have not heard his arguments, then go on to say that those arguments are “deranged”

    Kea,

    As a holocaust denier his arguments are deranged by definition.

    My giving them ‘airtime’ won’t change that.

    Edit: BTW, my original comment was not that Irving should be suppressed, but that people who believe him have a breakdown in their moral compass. It wasn’t even a nuanced message and yet it still somehow managed to escape you and you blathered on about freedom of speech.

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  51. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    Does anyone know just what he has said on the subject?

    Ha ha , none of the authoritarian parrots here this morning has a clue what Irving has said, yet listen to them scream !

    Zero credibility. What awful weak minded little cretins.

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  52. peterwn (2,935 comments) says:

    p A2 – Dom Post today (cannot find on Stuff). Clayton Cosgrove (Labour SOE spokesperson) cannot say whether Labour would support a ‘bailout’ (whatever that means) of the Tiwai aluminium smelter. This contradicted David Parker’s (Labour finance spokesperson) view that the Government should ‘walk away’ from the Southland plant, but Labour says David was misquoted (Tui anyone?). Perhaps Labour now realises there are high stakes here for ‘NZ Ltd’ and the best thing to do is let Meridian and the Government to get on with it and not be hampered by unhelpful comments (more like economic treason).

    With a weak aluminium market, there needs to be some ‘give’ on Meridian’s side – refusing a deal because the price is ‘too low’, or is perceived as a ‘bailout’ or ‘subsidy’ is simply financial hara-kiri.

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  53. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    As a holocaust denier his arguments are deranged by definition.

    So how do you know that if YOU have not heard what his argument is ?

    Do you believe the Fijians killed a billion zillion trillion million Hindus in concentration camps last year, or are YOU a Denier ? Yes or no ?

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  54. Judith (5,660 comments) says:

    Kea (3,087) Says:
    April 1st, 2013 at 9:59 am
    ———————-

    Accepting the arguments of Irving is justifying them.

    It doesn’t matter that there is no documentation proving that Hitler knew what was happening in the camps or not. I am sure he was not about to leave any documentation in place that would prove his part of the worst aspect his actions – Although there exists a huge amount of documentation from the war, we cannot and should not ever presume that because something does not exist now, that it never did. There is plenty of proof that Hitler was in charge, knew that copious quantities of people had ‘disappeared’ whilst in his custody. For all the bastards he was, the one thing he wasn’t was stupid. Irving makes no allowance for that. I have no doubt Hitler was lied to – but regardless of that – there was too much to be excused – too much to argue ‘he did not know’.

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  55. thedavincimode (6,119 comments) says:

    The real victims in this “debate” appear to be Kea’s lettuces.

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  56. wat dabney (3,458 comments) says:

    believes the Nazi’s were socialist

    The essential point is that, as statists/collectivists, they were leftists.

    Communism, Fascism, Socialism: outside of their economic model they are basically the same.

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  57. Judith (5,660 comments) says:

    Kea (3,090) Says:
    April 1st, 2013 at 10:03 am
    —————————-

    Irving’s rantings are available on line and I am sure plenty of people have read them, but none wish to feed the b/s by repeating them on here. Many of us have parents, mothers/fathers/grandparents who were affected – far too close and recent – many still feel their pain – so your attempts to belittle their memories of what they went through and fought for (which you are doing by promoting Irving) is just TOO much.

    Come back in a couple of hundred years – maybe you’ll find more people ready to listen.

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  58. bhudson (4,720 comments) says:

    As a holocaust denier his arguments are deranged by definition.

    So how do you know that if YOU have not heard what his argument is ?

    Comprehension is not your strongest suit now is it Kea?

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  59. David Garrett (5,134 comments) says:

    Kea: I think you ought to take a deep breath and read my post, if you are including me as one of your “authoritarian parrots”

    Irving’s great claim to fame – pre the denier thing – is that he only uses primary sourcess for his works. In other words he refers to the actual documents which speak of who, what, when, where, and how, and not just other historian’s books. Prior to the “denier” furore he was regarded as the leading authority on Hitler during the period of the Third Reich i.e. 1933-45, and while he may now be very unpopular because of his views on the holocaust, that knowledge – derived as it is entirely from primary sources – hasn’t simply vanished from his head or for the books he wrote back in the 70′s.

    Again, I would be interested to know just what it is he has said about the holocaust OTHER THAN that there are no documents in existence proving or even strongly suggesting that Hitler personally knew what was happening in the death camps. No doubt some clever chap(s) here can find a link for us, and then we will all know.

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  60. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    Judith, “Accepting the arguments of Irving is justifying them.” No it is not. Opposing those arguments, without hearing them, is just idiotic moronic behaviour.

    I apologise unreservedly to the KB community for over estimating your capacity for critical thought and assuming some of you are capable of independent thinking. I see how wrong I was and will not make the same mistake again. Fuck me !

    (Not you David Garrett, and a few others)

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  61. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    thedavincimode (4,643) Says:
    April 1st, 2013 at 10:09 am
    The real victims in this “debate” appear to be Kea’s lettuces.

    I am naming one of them bhudson. (no slug bait around that one) ;)

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  62. sbk (299 comments) says:

    “once democratic govts “…Once upon a time in a land far far away…a thing of memory…passed into folklore.

    “the wicked witch of the west” governed by timid lions,tin men and scarecrows.

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  63. bhudson (4,720 comments) says:

    Ah Kea, looking at your attempts at argument and previous comments by others lauding your intelligence, I am led to a Japanese proverb:

    “Knowledge without wisdom is a load of books on the back an ass”

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  64. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    Squawk :lol:

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  65. David Garrett (5,134 comments) says:

    Dear me…there is some dreadfully mudded thinking on here this am…

    Firstly, before I say anything else, let me confirm that I am in no doubt that the death camps existed; that millions of people were exterminated in them; and that Hitler almost certainly knew what was going on. (Please read this para. TWICE)

    Judith’s argument that Hitler wouldnt have wanted to leave documentary evidence of the biggest atrocity then known simply cannot be right. His whole world view was predicated on the Jews being responsible for every ill that had befallen the western world, and he would have wished to record his glorious role in the “final solution” of what he saw as an age old problem – just as all the others were proud of their efforts: Eichman, Himmler, Goebbels et.al. There is plenty of readily available evidence – tallies of the Eisatzgruppen for example – which show pride not shame on the part of many leading Nazis for making this or that area “judenfrei”, and how they did it.

    It is simply illogical to say “there are no documents now showing Hitler knew all about what was happening but there must have been some”. My view FWIW is that he must have, but I have never seen any conclusive evidence to support that. For example, there is no evidence that he ever visited any camps, although Himmler and others certainly did.

    [Before writing a phlegm drenched condemnation of this post, please scroll back to the top and read the second para. AGAIN]

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  66. Judith (5,660 comments) says:

    Kea (3,091) Says:
    April 1st, 2013 at 10:15 am
    Judith, “Accepting the arguments of Irving is justifying them.” No it is not. Opposing those arguments, without hearing them, is just idiotic moronic behaviour.
    —————————————

    What makes you think I haven’t ‘heard’ them? I’ve read the twaddle. As DG pointed out, he started off ok, but lost it along the way. He basis his thesis on what he can’t find – claiming therefore it didn’t exist. It reminds me of a child that puts his hands over his eyes, and says you aren’t there.

    As we all know there are many things during the period that there is no written documentation or accurate documentation for. I know a person who was born in the camps and survived – according to official documentation her mother died 6 months before she was born – even before her mother was ‘detained’. Her mother actually died in 1956.

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  67. Judith (5,660 comments) says:

    David Garrett (3,445) Says:
    April 1st, 2013 at 10:26 am
    ——————————–

    Again you are going with the same argument – it doesn’t exist now, so it didn’t happen. Whether Hitler had that specific documentation destroyed is not known – there is no proof of its existence, but again that does not meant it ‘didn’t happen’. At the time of his death he ordered a blanket destruction – and there was copious amounts of documents destroyed – he probably had no idea of exactly what was among it. You do not know, we do not know what was among that pile of ‘ashes’ – nor do we know what other documentation that hasn’t come to light might have contained.

    The point I was making about Hitler also applies to others who may have kept him informed – their families are hardly likely to come forward with proof that their loved ones were involved – I am very sure that although as you say Hitler might have or not wanted people to know – once he was dead, those that remained did not.

    Irving knew a lot – but had access to only SOME of what remains – by no means can he or anyone else state he saw EVERYTHING.

    The camps represented the most ‘evil’ part of the war – that people would want the evidence that tied them to Hitler and vice-versa to be hidden or destroyed is just as arguable as Irving’s ‘I didn’t see it so it didn’t happen’ thesis.

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  68. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    Wow I never expected my defense of freedom of expression to cause such a fuss.

    I am truly in the company of corrupted idiots. :(

    Maybe bhudson & Judith could post a list of all the official accounts of historical events we are forbidden to question ( on fear of imprisonment) ? That should avoid any further offence being taken over freedom of expression (thought crimes).

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  69. wat dabney (3,458 comments) says:

    Please stop being precious, Kea.

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  70. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    Judith you retard. Your 10:37 argument can be used to refute the state ordered version of events. Jesus christ what is wrong with you people today :)

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  71. Harriet (4,010 comments) says:

    “….I did indeed watch the slave labour piece. As far as I am concerned it does not matter to me at all if prisoners are forced to work. Hell, we should be doing the same thing here….”

    That’s not slavery. They had the choice.

    Not since the time of black slavery have we seen a % of the population recieve a liveable income for free – from others doing ALL the work!

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  72. Pauleastbay (5,030 comments) says:

    I believe he has gone much further than that, and said the exterminations in camps like auschwitz didn’t happen at all – if that is so, then he is clearly wrong. Does anyone know just what he has said on the subject?

    DG

    A basic wiki read tells you that. And there you will see that he has no credibiltiy because of his beliefs. He is particularly cowardly in that he names some other idiot as the reason for his beliefs. So he is not actually saying he came by his bliefs by himself but was ‘convinced”

    I would love to see reviews that you can source for me that “lauded’ Hitler’s War by the way.!!!

    Irving has been a anti-semite and closed to the views of others his entire life , he has credibilty with a small dangerous faction of this worlds society only. He has no credibilty with any credible orgainisation what so ever.

    ….and I am not sure exactly what it is he denies

    That comment does you no favours as a professional at all David, none whatsoever

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  73. wat dabney (3,458 comments) says:

    Not since the time of black slavery have we seen a % of the population recieve a liveable income for free – from others doing ALL the work!

    Er, this is what the Welfare State is.

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  74. UglyTruth (3,059 comments) says:

    As a holocaust denier his arguments are deranged by definition.

    The magic six million…

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  75. flipper (3,270 comments) says:

    A raptor you may be Kea, but possessed of an ability to read and accurately assimilate history, you are not.

    Would you care to explain the Wannsee Protocol, dated January 20, 1942?
    No?

    Well raptor, there were originally 30 copies of the minutes of that infamous meeting of German Under Secretaries of State held in the Berlin suburb of Wannsee and chaired by Reinhard Heydrich . Just one (copy #16) survived the war in the German Foreign Ministry’s files, and played a major part in the subsequent war crimes trials.

    The minutes of the meeting were taken by Adolf Eichmann, edited by Heydrich, and sent to Hitler, Goering, Himmler et al. The resultant implementation codified and “mechanised” (so to speak) what has become know as The Holocaust.

    Do you now feel sick, raptor?

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  76. Judith (5,660 comments) says:

    Kea (3,094) Says:
    April 1st, 2013 at 10:41 am
    ———————–

    What a load of crap – we are talking about whether Hitler knew of what was happening in the camps. The State is another matter. My argument is he knew, and the fact that Irving found on proof of that means squat – there was plenty of opportunity and reason for people to destroy/hide and distance themselves – just because there is a group who talk with pride about the events, does not provide any reason why others, who would be implicated by Hitlers knowledge, to ensure links were never made.

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  77. Reid (15,540 comments) says:

    The point of my original post yesterday which gave a talk Irving gave to historical society in California was not to explicate his historical views on any given topic but because it was the first video I’d ever seen where he went through how he’d started out, who he was as a person, what his research techniques were and what had happened to him. All of that was broad brush at a high level and while he mentioned the holocaust a few times it was in passing and peripheral to the main point.

    Then after posting I looked at a few of the sidebar videos and came across the Hardtalk one which was an example of, in light of the first video, one of the most biased pieces of crap I’ve ever seen. So I posted that, as well.

    My point in all of that was to give you guys an example of myth-making where someone who goes against powerful interests is hung out to dry by a series of massive falsehoods that through media manipulation become mainstream truth. That was why I did it. Not to air his theories but to show you an example of that. And if you watch both videos from last night’s GD then you will see that played out before your eyes.

    Of course there are many like bhudson who refuses, like the three monkeys (hear no evil etc), to watch them on the fallacy that he already knows what’s in them (how?) and he already knows what Irving thinks so what’s the point? And like many others, bhudson thinks that this three-monkey approach is rational and even gets all emotional when people suggest that it’s not (e.g. his frequent comment repeated above that I really believe, stated as fact, that shape-shifting reptilians, etc).

    In this behaviour, bhudson and others epitomise useful idiot psychology but they don’t even recognise they’re doing it, they really believe their approach is the rational road. Hence the name useful idiot, because idiots don’t recognise when they’ve been garden-pathed and it’s quite useful to have a bunch of hysterical supporters on your side because they’ll never see the truth, even when its put in front of them because their emotions won’t let their intellect through to examine it, although they’ll hallucinate they’re being “intellectual” and that the other side is the hysterical one. I bet bhudson is thinking that right now, as s/he reads this. But this is precisely why bhudson drags up the shape-shifting reptilians all the time, because s/he’s all emotional about it so he takes the most extreme most unbelievable things I’ve said on topic x and pretends that’s all I ever say about it. Notice the hatred and venom in that mindset? The deliberate disinformation which doesn’t even matter because I’m “the enemy” and therefore all tactics are justified? This is classic useful idiot behaviour.

    I’ve given up caring about it, I see it often, in all sorts of issues, from 911 to the GFC to the war on terror to Irving to Syria to Iran to you name it. Memes aplenty, in all of these issues.

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  78. Scott Chris (5,678 comments) says:

    For more than thirty years he has said there is no genuine document in existence which proves Hitler knew about what was happening in the camps

    Hitler was dictator of a nation that slaughtered, amongst others, around six million Jews. Whether or not there is a paper trail showing explicit genocidal instructions is irrelevant. Hitler is primarily responsible for their deaths.

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  79. Harriet (4,010 comments) says:

    That’s exactly right Wat.

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  80. thedavincimode (6,119 comments) says:

    eastbay

    There was a time when we could conveniently live with freedom of speech because people by and large responded to social convention (pressure) and didn’t go out of their ways to make outlandish, hateful or grossly offensive public statements. Those were the days when news was reported, there was no internet, you got locked up for saying “bullshit” in public, nobody said “fuck” on television and people were rather more self-sufficient than they are today and grew their own vegetables for personal consumption as opposed to camouflage for illicit horticultural endeavours.

    It’s a bit different now of course, but the problem is that restraint on personal speech by way of “repercussions” that extend beyond being socially shunned, vilified, scorned or exposed to actions for defamation or liable, necessitates drawing a very difficult line that is subject to re-drafting by political will. Is this what you are suggesting? We created an environment here with our new wave political correctness that eventually saw freedom of political speech banned by Klerk and the prospect of suppression of the press (which might be a good thing but for completely different reasons than those that Klerk mooted as compelling).

    The bottom line is that we live in a society where by and large, people not only haven’t experienced the hardship of the post war years, but they are increasingly spoon fed and have increasingly less personal responsibility and virtually no empathy for others. That’s why we have the silly race relations function. Introduction of new silly functions (The Being Mean and Nasty and Insensitive/Remember the Holacaust Commissioner) won’t fix that. That’s why we have the phoney Christians here. We won’t advance as a society until we re-discover some of what our society had before and that successive Governments starting with Muldoon have frittered away; and none more than the evil Klerk from whom it will take literally decades to recover. Dealing to the teachers and increasing educational standards is a big part of any remedial strategy.

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  81. Pauleastbay (5,030 comments) says:

    an example of myth-making where someone who goes against powerful interests is hung out to dry by a series of massive falsehoods

    Reid

    sums up Irving totally, to try and use David Irving a a cause celebre regards being manipulated by the MSM was not a good choice

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  82. David Garrett (5,134 comments) says:

    Dear me…it gets worse…I have no idea who Kea is, but I am becoming more and more sympathetic to him – at least on this issue.

    The last (in more ways than one) first…

    PEB: Wikipedia? Are you serious man? During my political career a member of my staff amended the Wiki entry on me every night, and sometime in the early hours of the morning, someone would usually “amend” it back to highlight this or that, and ignore something else, in order to fit their view of me. You cannot seriously be quoting that as a credible source?

    You make no mention of Irving’s debunking of the “Hitler Diaires” in the 1970′s…persumably you are aware of them? Sir Hugh Trevor- Roper was then the pre-eminent expert on Hitler, and he had “authenticated” them as genuine. His career never recovered.

    Judith: Your error is in what you don’t say, rather than what you do, most or all of which is correct on a quick glance. I remain unconvinced by your flimsy argument about Hitler’s personal knowledge. If he had known intimate details about the final solution and how it was being carried out, one would expect voluminous documents proclaiming the fact the he was the inspiration for it all…Thousands upon thousands of Nazi era documents survived the war – Irving’s entire career was based on them. But not one document.

    What does that prove? As I said in my first comment, probably not very much. It beggars belief that he knew nothing of what his underlings were doing to please him. But one thing is certain – one of the many prominent features of the Nazi regime was its compartmentalisation; the left hand didnt know want the other was doing. According to most historians, Hitler set it up that way – duplicating functions so each would compete with the other to achieve targets to impress him.

    Still waiting for some quote on what Irving has actually said about the holocaust. An not, please, from Wiki bloody pedia!

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  83. kowtow (6,706 comments) says:

    kea

    you are a silly parrot. The concept of free speech is limited. Limited by govts to what they consider to be acceptable and limited by the liberal elite of kiwiblog to their pet subjects.

    Give offence to one of their sacrosanct idols or topics and the freedoms they claim to hold so dear and to protect vanish and one is subjected to all sorts of pathetic ad homs and insults.

    So for your troubles today you;

    should be sent to Auswitz ,as well as you forgot your medication.flipper

    refer to yourself in the 3rd person and are deteriorating (eastbat)

    you make her skin crawl (Judith) as well as hurting the memory of some random folk (very emotional Judith)

    have poor comprehension (b hudson)

    and wart dumney thinks you’re precious.

    Now I don’t agree with a lot ,maybe even most of what kea says but these posts say a lot more about keas’ attackers than they do about kea.

    Freedom of speech for me but not for thee.
    Irving has been jailed in Europe for his views and denied entry to Aotearoa(according to Eastbay). That is criminal.The kiwibloggers who atttack kea are on the same authoritarian continuum as the freedom hating govts that oppress free speech.

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  84. wat dabney (3,458 comments) says:

    Was I a bit slow there Harriet?

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  85. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    What a load of crap – we are talking about whether Hitler knew of what was happening in the camps.

    No “we” were not. I was talking about freedom of expression and hearing all sides.

    I tire of this topic.

    Lets talks about:

    1. The Zionist Holocaust against the Muslims.

    2. The European Holocaust against Maori.

    3. The Catholic Holocaust in Eastern Europe.

    Any deniers out there ?

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  86. UglyTruth (3,059 comments) says:

    six million Jews

    Six million jews have reportedly died/been threatened at least ten times before the “holocaust”.
    The video I posted shows the original newspaper articles.

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  87. wat dabney (3,458 comments) says:

    Kowtow,

    You too are missing the point.

    Perhaps you should go back over the thread and start again?

    We’ll wait here.

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  88. bhudson (4,720 comments) says:

    In this behaviour, bhudson and others epitomise useful idiot psychology

    @Reid,

    Even if that designation were true, we would still easily trump you on the grounds of being useful…

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  89. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    Hitler was dictator of a nation that slaughtered, amongst others, around six million Jews. Whether or not there is a paper trail showing explicit genocidal instructions is irrelevant.

    Given YOUR claim there is no record of those killed, how did you arrive at the “six million Jews” figure ?

    How about the millions of homos, Eastern Europeans, and political dissidents, did you subtract them and how did you find the numbers (there is “no record” ?

    Any comment on the 20 million + Russians who died or the other 70 million who died in the war ?

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  90. David Garrett (5,134 comments) says:

    PEB: You are a pretty useful chap on the interweb…please post a link to Irving himself speaking, or some authoritative source – such as a court transcript, or an authenticated transcript of an interview – that tells us just what it is that Irving claims about the the holocaust.

    My comment “does me no credit as a professional”…a professional what? I am a lawyer who happens to have a degree in history; I don’t claim to have any more than undergraduate knowledge of WW II history.

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  91. Pauleastbay (5,030 comments) says:

    DVA

    What I was meaning was, although we have freedom of speech as a basic tenant of a free society, it has never been entirely free, there have always been restraints, like you stated you used to get locked up for saying fuck.

    Society has these rules to protect the many, I cannot state that ” such in such is a paedophile” with no proof,we have liable laws etc for this.

    So when you get the likes of Irving coming out and saying that only 40,000 died at Auswhitz and they died by natural causes, which was no more than the death total on a allied bombing raid (according to him)it is totally out of line. Its not only offensive but so untruee as to be alot more than mischievious. Thats where society has checks to stop that sort of bullshit, thats not freedom of speech. And its not something we can blame on Clark and co unfortunately its always been in place.

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  92. Pauleastbay (5,030 comments) says:

    I have to go out DG but you can start by posting some reviews of the laudation of “Hitlers War”.

    What I meant as a professional DG was that you have the brains to do a bit of basic reading before you would make a comment like “denies what exactly”. Like I said does you no favours .

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  93. Scott (1,614 comments) says:

    Davincimode at 10.59am. Very well said, I couldn’t agree more. The only difficulty I have is that you are a wonderful critic of others. In the past you have written eloquently about Christians needing to be more christlike in what they write on kiwiblog. All wonderful stuff. But my tiny question to you is this do you ever apply these ideas to yourself? Why point out the speck in your brother’s eye while ignoring the piece of 2 by 4 in your own?

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  94. Reid (15,540 comments) says:

    Reid, sums up Irving totally, to try and use David Irving a a cause celebre regards being manipulated by the MSM was not a good choice

    Paul you may be right I don’t know because I don’t know his research and I’ve never bothered to look into it. However like I said, if you watch the first and the second video and take both at face value, you see a picture of a man who really knows his shit, who has been railroaded. You do. Simple as that.

    Now this says nothing about whether Irving was completely bullshitting in the first video, and I’m not talking about bullshitting about his research because as I’ve already explained, the first video doesn’t cover that, it covers his life. So if he was completely bullshitting about his life in the first video, then it makes the media-created view of him and his work as a fair-enough kind of proposition. However if you watch the first video and conclude he’s covered off his life in a fair-enough, genuine and truthful way, then watch the second, you will see what I saw if you conclude as I did that in the first video he was simply going over his history in a matter-of-fact, truthful way. I concluded that not because I’m naive but because I know people. I saw Bush 43 for who he was while most of you were still cheering the brand-new Republican president, for example.

    So let me repeat the message. This has nothing to do with his research, it has everything to do with, has he been rail-roaded?

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  95. kowtow (6,706 comments) says:

    kea

    throwing in the Catholic Holocaust in eastern Europe (whatever that was and assuming that the catholics were the baddies not the goodies) is a good move.

    Most of the folk attacking you on the Irving denial will now enthusiatically get behind you as you have moved on to one of their favourite hate subjects Roman Catholicism.

    Good tactic.

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  96. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    Lets talks about:

    1. The Zionist Holocaust against the Muslims.

    2. The European Holocaust against Maori.

    3. The Catholic Holocaust in Eastern Europe.

    Any deniers out there ?

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  97. kowtow (6,706 comments) says:

    scoot

    make no mistake dawinciner is an outright anti catholic bigot. He chimes in with his mate nasska at any opportunity ,he can’t help himself.That last post a great example.

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  98. Reid (15,540 comments) says:

    Repost for convenience:

    This is an excellent interview that shows David Irving as the sort of man he is, rather than who the propaganda pretends he is.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwp7tVZuXKM

    It’s quite interesting.

    Pity they felt a need to destroy half of his card index, wasn’t it. Wonder why they felt a need to do that.

    And check this out.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=JF4GFGMNm3g

    Reminds me of our “objective” TVNZ/3 interviews

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  99. Scott (1,614 comments) says:

    Just on the question did Hitler know about the final solution? I am amazed by the idea he did not know? He hated Jews with a demonic passion. He ran the show in Germany. Who can believe he didn’t know? What 6 million Jews killed in a network of concentration and death camps with an elaborate network of trains and specially designed killing systems which must have cost the country a fortune? And he just didn’t know? I have read lots of books about world war 2 and I have not seen one historian who even raised the question? Why would anyone think he didn’t know?

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  100. Judith (5,660 comments) says:

    Kea (3,096) Says:
    April 1st, 2013 at 11:05 am
    ————————-

    Freedom of Speech does not give a person licence to be dishonest, nor does it give them licence to knowingly offend. It does not give them the right to denigrate others either directly or indirectly by their reproduction of falsehoods. It does not give them the right to use the circumstances of the deaths of others to fabricate stories for a financial benefit unless they ensure their ‘speech’ is labelled fiction.

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  101. Reid (15,540 comments) says:

    Why would anyone think he didn’t know?

    In the first video Irving overviews his research methods which answers that question and all the other aspects you raise about it.

    Freedom of Speech does not give a person licence to be…

    Yes Judith. You do realise these rules apply both to people who excoriate Irving as well as those who question the official story on who he is, don’t you.

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  102. Judith (5,660 comments) says:

    Scott (1,278) Says:
    April 1st, 2013 at 11:21 am
    ———————–

    Why? Because when you come up with such a bizarre theory, about a subject of which everyone knows, you are going to make yourself famous/infamous and a lot of money. Some people commit good deeds to be famous, then there are those who want fame so badly they will do anything to stand out among the others.

    Irving succeeded – we are talking about the piece of trash.

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  103. Harriet (4,010 comments) says:

    thedavincimode # PEB#

    Mark Steyn sheds some light on that:

    ” Lord Moulton divided society into three sectors, of which he considered the most important to be the “middle land” between law and absolute freedom — the domain of manners, in which the individual has to be “trusted to obey self-imposed law.”
    “To my mind,” wrote Moulton, “the real greatness of a nation, its true civilization, is measured by the extent of this land.”
    By that measure, our greatness is shriveling fast: The land of self-regulation has been encroached on remorselessly, to the point where we increasingly accept that everything is either legal or illegal, and therefore to render any judgment of our own upon the merits of this or that would be presumptuous.

    A small example: The other day, I visited a Shaw’s supermarket in New Hampshire. On the front door was a sign: “No bare feet — for Health & Safety reasons.” Really? Yes, it’s true that the bare foot is particularly prone to fungus and bacteria, and one wouldn’t want it promenading in large numbers around the meat department — in the same sense that it would be unhygienic to take a leak in the produce department. But the reason a civilized person neither urinates nor pads barefoot amid the fruit and veg is not that it’s a health-code violation but that it’s (in the Moulton sense) ill mannered. Shaw’s can no longer rely on its clients to know this (and to “obey self-imposed law”), and it apparently feels it cannot prohibit such behavior merely as an affront to societal norms, so it can disapprove of barefoot shopping only as an act of regulatory non-compliance.

    Speaking of “societal norms,” whatever happened to those? We used to accept that different places had broadly observed customs. “When in Rome, do as the Romans do.” But in Rome these days they do all kinds of things: There are still a few more or less observant Catholics, but there’s also a lively crowd of gay hedonists, and a big bunch of disapproving Muslims. A norm to one is an abomination to the other, which is one reason the state is increasingly comfortable in micro-mediating social behavior.

    A land of hyper-regulation is not the same as a land of law. The European Court of Human Rights recently ruled on two cases of British women whose employers forbade them to wear crucifixes — one an NHS nurse, the other a British Airways baggage handler. The court ruled against the nurse but in favor of the baggage handler. Why? What particular legal principle illuminated both cases? Don’t ask the jurists. Re the BA employee, they declared that “the court has reached the conclusion in the present case that a fair balance was not struck.” How is BA or any other employer to know what constitutes a “fair balance”? They can’t — or not reliably. Only the state and the courts can definitively establish that, by colonizing Moulton’s “middle land” unto policing dress codes, religious expression, social habits, and even casual conversational exchanges.

    As that Shaw’s sign suggests, a kind of civic paralysis sets in: It is a small step from a citizenry that no longer knows how it should act to a citizenry that no longer knows whether or if it can act, and from there to a citizenry that can no longer act. When everything is the domain of law, everyone is potentially a criminal. Over the decades, National Review has been famously antipathetic to Ayn Rand, but she called this one a long time ago. In Atlas Shrugged, one of her characters muses: “One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws.” – Mark Steyn – ‘Everyman’s a criminal.’

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  104. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    Judith, you oppose freedom of speech and demand that we bow down to authority and do as we are told without question.

    You can not assume something is dishonest from the outset, first you must hear it (freedom of speech). Your position makes no sense.

    As for “offense” that is the favourite cry of you narcissistic authoritarians who want to silence other people. Offense is an emotional state and not a description of anything outside of your own head.

    The only people who have received a ” a financial benefit” are the Jews, along with someone elses country.

    Your really are a dishonest and horrible person. I do not say that because you disagree, but because of your dishonesty and your sickening groveling to authority. It is low lifes such as you who made the holocaust possible.

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  105. Eisenhower (134 comments) says:

    Reid/Kea,

    Just in case you had any doubts about Irving and his contention Hitler knew nothing of the Holocaust…
    From Mein Kampf

    “Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.”

    “…it is the inexorable Jew who struggles for his domination over the nations. No nation can remove this hand from its throat except by the sword….Such a process is and remains a bloody one.”

    “If at the beginning of the War and during the War, twelve or fifteen thousand of these Hebrew corrupters of the people had been held under the poison gas, as happened to hundreds of thousands of our very best German workers in the field, the sacrifice of millions at the front would not have been in vain.”

    From Hitler’s Reichtag address, January 30, 1939 –
    “During my struggle for power, the Jews primarily received with laughter my prophecies that I would someday assume the leadership of the state and thereby…achieve a solution of the Jewish problem. I suppose that meanwhile the then resounding laughter of Jewry in Germany is now choking in their throats.

    “Today I will be a prophet again. If international finance Jewry…should succeed once more in plunging the peoples into a world war, then the consequences will not be the Bolshevization of the world and therewith a victory of Jewry, but, on the contrary, the destruction of the Jewish race in Europe.”

    From Hitler’s speech, November 8, 1942 –
    “You will recall that meeting of the Reichtag in which I declared: If Jewry perchance imagines that it can bring about an international world war for the annihilation of the European races, then the consequence will not be the annihilation of the European races, but, on the contrary, it will be the annihilation of Jewry in Europe….Of those who laughed then, countless ones no longer laugh today, and those who still laugh now will perhaps in a while also no longer do so.”

    Albert Speer’s memoirs –
    I was present at the session of the Reichstag of 30th January 1939, when Hitler assured us that in case of a war, not the Germans, but the Jews would be annihilated. This dictum was pronounced with such certainty that I would not have felt permitted to question his intention to carry it through.

    Felix Kirsten’s (Himmler’s therapist) memoirs –
    Today I had a very long talk about the Jews with Himmler. I said that the world would no longer tolerate the extermination of the Jews; it was high time that he put a stop to it. Himmler said that it was beyond his power; he was not the Führer and Adolf Hitler had expressly ordered it.

    Hitler and the Final Solution 1984, meeting with Mufti Haj Amin Husseini, on 28 November 1941-
    At this meeting, Hitler promised the Mufti that, after a certain objective was reached, “Germany’s only remaining objective in the region would be limited to the annihilation of the Jews living under British protection in Arab lands.”

    Hoss’ (Auschwitz Commandant) memoirs, meeting with Himmler 1941 –
    “The Führer has ordered that the Jewish question be solved once and for all and that we, the SS, are to implement that order….The Jews are the sworn enemies of the German people and must be eradicated. Every Jew that we can lay our hands on is to be destroyed now during the war, without exception. If we cannot now obliterate the biological basis of Jewry, the Jews will one day destroy us.”

    Report that Hitler received in December 1942 from Himmler stating that 363,211 Jews had been murdered in August-November 1942. This was just one of many reports from the Einsatzgruppen, who had the job of exterminating the Jews and anti-Nazis behind the eastern front.

    Phone log from Hitler to Himmler, in which Hitler ordered “no liquidation” of a particular trainload of Jews, because they wanted one suspected passenger questioned. If Hitler did not know of the liquidation process, how could he have ordered it stopped in this one instance? (Ironically, David Irving used part of this phone log out of context to indicate that Hitler was trying to put a stop to the extermination program. Of course, this was before Mr. Irving changed his mind and decided that there never was any extermination program, much less that Hitler knew about it.)

    I also remember a letter to the editor Irving wrote to the NZ Herald when he was banned from entering the country, citing one bizarre piece of evidence along the lines that there were no large mounds of coke to fuel the crematoria seen on any aerial reconnaissance photos of Auschwitz so the figure of 9-10,000 bodies being burned daily was a fabrication. Yet it was common knowledge that human fat from the fires sustained the flames.

    Discredited doesn’t even begin to portray Irving.

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  106. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

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  107. Harriet (4,010 comments) says:

    “…Freedom of Speech does not give a person licence to be dishonest, nor does it give them licence to knowingly offend….’

    Yes it does.

    Police are dishonest lots of the time when they question suspects with the aim of getting to the truth. Lawyers, parents, teachers, media, politicians ect are a few more who do it with that aim in mind.

    If we had to abide by some rule where we didn’t ‘knowingly offend’ someone, or some group, then we would not be allowed to talk on dozens of matters.

    Anything with statistics is one that comes to mind! :cool:

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  108. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    Eisenhower , I regard your ability to extract accurate information, from the written word, with some suspicion.

    My point was to defend free speech, question authority, and hold that authority to account.

    Do you support that or not ?

    Why are you writing shit about phone calls and what some fucking therapist said ? Listen to what I said, not the voices in your head telling you what “I really mean”. You will end up mental like Judith and bhudson.

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  109. bhudson (4,720 comments) says:

    This is an excellent interview that shows David Irving as the sort of man he is, rather than who the propaganda pretends he is.

    @Reid,

    That we are subject to control thorough propaganda is a common theme to your commenting. And yet you don’t critique for a moment whether, perhaps, Irving is presenting the picture he wants people to believe of him – his own propaganda in action.

    That beggars belief.

    But then perhaps it is…

    because I know people.

    Oh the hubris… Also beggars belief.

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  110. Reid (15,540 comments) says:

    Reid/Kea,

    Just in case you had any doubts about Irving and his contention Hitler knew nothing of the Holocaust…

    Eisenhower I’ve already explained what this issue is about and it’s not about what he said, it’s about whether he’s been railroaded. You don’t answer this question by looking at what he said vs what others say and determining who is correct from that because with respect, none of you are historians so how the fuck would you know, by looking at the output, whether or not any particular bit of it has any veracity? And if you are a historian, then you will know that you don’t look at the output, you look at the source documents. So again, what’s the point of citing the output? That has nothing to do with the veracity of what he said.

    I repeat, the first video contains a run-down of his research techniques and gives the objective person an understanding of why he disagrees with his contemporaries. Watch it if you want an answer. If you think you already know the answer then what’s your basis for concluding that? The opinions of others? It is, isn’t it.

    bhudson have you watched the first video yet? You haven’t have you. Hubris? Hah. Look in the mirror.

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  111. Keeping Stock (9,788 comments) says:

    Gareth Hughes has posted the following on Facebook:

    Stoked! Just reviewed some great news. I’ve been invited to visit North Korea by the DPRK Govt as a missile test observer because of my independence and interest in all thing space. I look forward to learning more about their peaceful space programme. Can’t believe I’m going to meet Kim Jong Un and Dennis Rodman!!

    http://www.facebook.com/garethhughesmp?ref=ts&fref=ts

    I’m happy to chip in a lazy twenty out of my Mighty River Power share purchase slush fund to help to buy him a one-way ticket; anyone else keen to help? A few months in North Korea, and he might appreciate the country he currently lives in a little more…

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  112. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

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  113. Judith (5,660 comments) says:

    Kea (3,099) Says:
    April 1st, 2013 at 11:33 am
    Judith, you oppose freedom of speech and demand that we bow down to authority and do as we are told without question.

    ———————————-

    I have said nothing of the sort. I oppose people using the concept of ‘freedom of speech’ to be dishonest, cause deliberate offence with their dishonesty, and to persecute other people with their dishonesty. The right to freedom of speech, does not give anyone the right to deliberately lie. That has nothing to do with authority.

    I don’t know why you insist on misrepresenting people in order to try and win your arguments.

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  114. dime (8,752 comments) says:

    this april fools thing is getting boring

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  115. David Garrett (5,134 comments) says:

    Eisenhower: Most (if not all) of us agree that Hitler knew about the final solution; he was certainly “responsible” for it in the sense that it was his regime, and as you have made clear from your quotes, as early as 1924 he was making it clear that at the very least, he wanted all Jews out of Europe – by exile and deportation if possible and if not, by extermination. But that is NOT was this argument is about.

    It is about whether there is documentary evidence that he knew exactly what Eichmann, Himmler, Heydrich and others were doing to further his stated aim; it is about whether Irving should be banned from speaking because he espouses a very unpopular and indeed odious claim; it is about WHAT exactly Irving has said about the holocaust; it is about whether all of his other work is to be disregarded because of his claims about the holocaust. And I suppose it is also about free speech, and the limits on it.

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  116. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    Judith. You have no idea what freedom of speech is.

    It does not mean YOUR version of truth and is not dependent on YOUR feelings.

    Hitler loved volk like you. Without you and your ilk there would have been no war and 70 million would have been spared.

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  117. Fletch (5,722 comments) says:

    MUST WATCH video if you haven’t seen it (I hadn’t) about why liberals think the way they do. WHy they call ‘evil’ good etc..

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  118. OneTrack (1,967 comments) says:

    Judith “Freedom of Speech does not give a person licence to be dishonest, nor does it give them licence to knowingly offend.”

    Did you copy that word for word out of the Rules for Political Correctness Guide Book? It certainly looks like it.

    Is there a guide for us uneducated people on what issues cannot be questioned, or, in this case even researched, in case we get the “wrong answer”.

    I have got we cannot question anything associated with the holocaust or global warming. Anything else that is “unapproved” or a thought crime?

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  119. thedavincimode (6,119 comments) says:

    But my tiny question to you is this do you ever apply these ideas to yourself? Why point out the speck in your brother’s eye while ignoring the piece of 2 by 4 in your own?

    Scott

    The speck in my brother’s eye is his hypocrisy. I’ve never suggested that I’m a warm wonderful human being. So, apropos of your particular bent, you might have noticed that I’m somewhat critical of the phoney Christians and their hypocritical behaviour here and their cherry-picking of religious teachings to suit their own bigotry and in the process, doing their professed religion a considerable disservice. I also find it notable that the leaders of this pack are quick on the trigger to dismiss the knee-jerk hire-a-jihad response from the Mussies over some perceived religious slight, yet when some tool of a Deacon or whatever he was puts a sign up outside an Auckland Cathedral that is inevitably offensive and hurtful to many Christians (particularly no doubt, to more elderly Christians) simply to “promote comment”, there isn’t even a squeal. Similarly when some Auckland porn peddler uses a billboard with nuns on it to promote his wares. The ultimate irony from the phoney Christians.

    So in the context of your comment on my comment to eastbay and his response, the phonies are just that and deserve everything they get; the porn guy had every right to put his tasteless sign up but should have stopped and thought about the prospect that he could cause genuine hurt and offense to some little old lady, and the deacon (or whatever he was) should have been fired for being a complete arse and being so arrogant in making himself the centre of attention and thinking that the message he wanted to communicate was more important than causing genuine hurt to his parishioners.

    But if you can point to a specific example of 4 x 2 in my eye, feel free.

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  120. nasska (9,519 comments) says:

    Judith

    You have the right to offend…..I have the right to be offended & that is free speech.

    If we say, “You can say what you like but you must not hurt anyone’s feelings” that is not free speech because someone must decide what is offensive.

    For an example of the principle in action consider this blog. DPF does not agree with & I suspect shudders at some of the opinions aired here. He generally does not intervene because he believes in freedom of thought & expression.

    That is how it works.

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  121. All_on_Red (941 comments) says:

    Reading all this I ponder whether Hitlers Death Camps are an extreme Socialist version of wealth redistribution. Instead of taxing them, just kill them and take everything….

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  122. thedavincimode (6,119 comments) says:

    KS

    Amazing. What a revolting, troughing, shameful hypocritical little cunt.

    [DPF - Yes, I know, 20 demerits because the fact that he is a revolting, troughing, shameful hypocritical little cunt is no defence, although I don't expect you will dispute the description].

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  123. Reid (15,540 comments) says:

    I have got we cannot question anything associated with the holocaust or global warming. Anything else that is “unapproved” or a thought crime?

    911, the war on terror, gay marriage, Syria, the influence of Israel in US politics, the way the banking system works, political correctness, the principles of Te Tiriti, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc.

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  124. Manolo (12,625 comments) says:

    Spot on, nasska. Spot on.
    Ouch, davinci.

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  125. bhudson (4,720 comments) says:

    911, the war on terror, gay marriage, Syria…

    Oh bugger! Now it turns out that Ferdinand Porsche was part of the illuminati conspiracy too!!

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  126. Reid (15,540 comments) says:

    Now it turns out that Ferdinand Porsche was part of the illuminati conspiracy too!!

    Even more disinformation bhudson? Does your useful idiocy know no bounds? Try and find a post I’ve ever made alleging anything to do with Porsche. But that doesn’t matter in your twisted little mind, does it? Truth is secondary, to the cause! Ever noticed how you behave exactly like lefties do, bhudson? No, of course you haven’t, why would you notice? After all, if you did notice, you wouldn’t be an idiot (anymore), would you.

    BTW, watched that first video yet? No? Still stick by what you said? Yes? I rest my case, re: you and useful idiocy.

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  127. Scott (1,614 comments) says:

    Davincimode, well the piece of 4 x 2 in your own eye is your comment at 12.45.

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  128. thedavincimode (6,119 comments) says:

    Scott

    You might put Gareth Hughes on a pedestal. I don’t (clearly). No 4×2 there.

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  129. kowtow (6,706 comments) says:

    good video fletch ,thanks for posting.

    …..no shortage of “mindless foot soldiers” around here.

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  130. bhudson (4,720 comments) says:

    I rest my case, re: you and useful idiocy.

    Oh, and I likewise Reid.

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  131. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    “Kraft durch Freude Wagon” designed by Ferdinand Porsche
    killed hippies by the thousands
    just like his other cars kill rich wankers

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  132. kowtow (6,706 comments) says:

    “rich wankers”

    griff do you hate the wealthy?

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  133. Reid (15,540 comments) says:

    You might put Gareth Hughes on a pedestal. I don’t (clearly).

    Me neither. I suspect we’re not alone, DVM.

    He’s the most supercilious disingenuous little prat I’ve seen in Parliament, and that’s saying something. Still, I fully expect one day soon another one will come along whose even worse. The Gweens seem to breed them, seems to be a part of their selection criteria.

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  134. Pete George (21,812 comments) says:

    peterwn at 10.04

    Labour would support a ‘bailout’ (whatever that means) of the Tiwai aluminium smelter. This contradicted David Parker’s (Labour finance spokesperson) view that the Government should ‘walk away’ from the Southland plant, but Labour says David was misquoted (Tui anyone?).

    Perhaps Labour now realises there are high stakes here for ‘NZ Ltd’ and the best thing to do is let Meridian and the Government to get on with it and not be hampered by unhelpful comments (more like economic treason).

    Labour’s attack mentality and lack of working together has been exposed here, and they have made a mess of a dilemma – to use Tiwai as a weapon to oppose asset sales is totally contrary to their save jobs at any cost mentality on other issues.

    And all Shearer could say was that “the Government should have stepped in earlier” and been “more hands on”. He didn’t say whether they should have been more hands on saving jobs or more hands on walking away from Tiwai.

    Perhaps if Shearer tried some hands on leadership of his caucus he would make some progress.

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  135. All_on_Red (941 comments) says:

    Griff shows his colours
    “just like his other cars kill rich wankers”

    Porsches are very very well built and safe.Also environmentally friendly. I’ve had five.(911E,944, 928S,996C4S,997S) Have you ever driven one? I’d rather my kids were in a Porsche than a Suzuki.

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  136. Chuck Bird (4,410 comments) says:

    That’s not slavery. They had the choice.
    Not since the time of black slavery have we seen a % of the population recieve a liveable income for free – from others doing ALL the work!

    Harriet, did you watch the item? The only justification I can see for any form of torture is to save lives by getting information from Islamic terrorists. Torture criminals and barbaric whether it is done it a Muslim country or a communist country should not be ignored especially when it involves a New Zealand citizen.

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  137. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    Only f undie catholic ones that drive Porsche’s.

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  138. Pete George (21,812 comments) says:

    This is very clever:

    Guardian Goggles: because life’s too short to think for yourself

    From the printed word to the multimedia tablet, the Guardian has embraced technology like no other newspaper. Now, Alan Rusbridger, editor in chief, unveils the latest exciting step in the Guardian’s mission to harness the power of online media: Guardian Goggles, delivering our quality journalism straight between the eyes

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/video/2013/apr/01/guardian-goggles-video

    They include an anti-bigotry function. And they are an ideal colour for someone like Redbaiter.

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  139. Pauleastbay (5,030 comments) says:

    thedavincimode (4,648) Says:

    April 1st, 2013 at 12:45 pm

    You took one for the team there and I think you were very gentle on the knob

    This from his Green party Bio.

    My never-fail recipe: My vegan self-saucing pudding (cooked for a hungry crew on the Rainbow Warrior

    Yep I was raised on puddings that had meat in them, what a fucking twat.

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  140. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    Porsche
    Driven with purpose in the right hands great cars.
    In the wrong hands or taken by surprise =arse sex with the nearest solid object

    http://blogs.wsj.com/drivers-seat/2013/02/11/what-is-it-with-celebrities-crashing-porsches/

    Porsche said early 911s’ short wheelbases (the measurement from the center of the front wheels to the center of the rear wheels) and less-sophisticated rear suspensions gave them a reputation for tricky handling during aggressive, high-speed driving such as racing.

    In fast corners, the relatively heavy rear-mounted engine can act a bit like the head of a hammer. It seems to want to swing around toward the outside of the turn. Well-trained drivers know it’s vital to continue applying power, making subtle adjustments to keep the car balanced and under control. But startled drivers tend to ease off the throttle or release it completely. When that happens, the sudden shift imbalance toward the front can cause the rear wheels to lose traction, allowing the car to spin.

    They now have nanny in them so rich wankers live until they turn the traction control off.
    As to cost of ownership and repairs :lol:
    Yes better than say a maiser not as good as say a Camry.
    Still its your money whatever floats your boat.

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  141. David Garrett (5,134 comments) says:

    PG: I have it! You are on ACC…for a back injury perhaps?

    funny how attentive you are to what others post about you..except when you don’t want to be..

    Re Gareth Hughes, I think you all might find his upcoming trip to North Korea has something to do with today’s date…but he is still a clueless young wanker!

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  142. Sidey (230 comments) says:

    David Garrett at 1:57 pm
    PG: I have it! You are on ACC…for a back injury perhaps?

    Well it definitely can’t be RSI in the wrists, although with almost 17,000 comments that might not be too far off!

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  143. Pauleastbay (5,030 comments) says:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irving_v_Penguin_Books_and_Lipstadt

    DG

    A bit of reading re: Irving to get things rolling.

    As you so often write when badgering others for a reply to you.

    Well, where are the laudatory reviews of Irving’s “Hitler war”. Just asking

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  144. Pauleastbay (5,030 comments) says:

    PEB: Wikipedia? Are you serious man? During my political career a member of my staff amended the Wiki entry on me every night,

    Bruce Springsteen song keeps coming to mind David “Glory Days” you may have heard it.

    Do you think someone as litigious as Irving would let untruths stay up.?
    Do you think the facts from the liable hearing have been made up?
    Wiki has lots of faults but…..

    anyway looking forward to some book reviews from you re’ Hilters War, – you know the ones lauding his scholarship.

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  145. David Garrett (5,134 comments) says:

    Just had a scroll back through the comments over the four hours or so that David Irving and his beliefs/statements on the holocaust have been discussed…despite several invitations to do so, no-one has posted any link to a speech by Irving or a transcript of an interview in which he states said beliefs…the closest was the “Hardtalk” clip Reid linked to…

    From what I can work out, and from reading the above, following the links, and from my own reading, this is what Irving has said about Hitler and the holocaust:

    1. That there is no documentary evidence showing Hitler personally knew about the practical application of the final solution, i.e. what had been discussed at the Wannsee conference. I dont think there is much argument about that one, although Judith and others think “so what?” is an adequate rebuttal;

    2. There is lots of documentary evidence about mass murders of Jews and others in Eastern Europe. True.

    3. That there were – at the least – “tens of thousands of deaths” in the camps, but he fudges what caused them. Pretty dodgy. While there is no doubt tens of thousands died of disease and starvation, there is also compelling evidence – and not just from eye witness testimony, which every lawyer knows is very unreliable – that the gas chambers existed, and that millions died in them;

    4. That countless deaths all over Germany were caused by bombings by the RAF and USAAF. True, but irrelevant and disingenuous.

    5. That people are not allowed to examine the gas chambers and crematoria at Auchwitz, which were built (or rebuilt) after the war. I dont know; someone (PEB??) says they have been there, so they will know.

    6. That there has been a determined effort over 20 years by mainstream historians to destroy his reputation. True.

    8. That it was he who debunked the so called “Hitler Diaries” in 1983 when they had earlier been “authenticated” by Sir Hugh Trevor-Roper who was, until then, the pre-eminent expert on Hitler and the Third Reich. True.

    7. That Irving’s work is based solely on primary sources i.e documents created at the time he is writing about, and not on other historians’ work. True.

    Anyone care to add to the above list?

    PEB: the word is LIBEL not liable…. meaning defamation in writing….I dont know how to the link thingies that you are so clever with.

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  146. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    Well, where are the laudatory reviews of Irving’s “Hitler war”

    If they are provided you will just attack the source.

    Where is the free media that would publish or give such a review ? Thanks to authoritarians like you, there is no such thing. It is a self fulfilling prophecy of circular reasoning. “We won’t publish THAT ! & evidence it is so wrong is that it is not published”

    There are various regimes around the world that share your view. Many in fact. I suggest you show some integrity, pack up the family, and go live there.

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  147. Pete George (21,812 comments) says:

    WTF DG – I’ve never been off work on ACC.

    Why are you pretending you didn’t read my answer yesterday? Or did you really skip reading that, you responded to other parts of the comment. I’ve told you three times now I’ve answered you, but you seem to be playing some sort of ignorance game.

    Is it a good look for a lawyer to be speculating like this? A fishing expedition? Your motives are a bit suspect, as are some others who may or may not have any connection.

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  148. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    David Garrett, you are not allowed to say that. It is not the “approved” view.

    People like Pauleastbay throw your type in prison in some (so called) democratic countries. Of course things are not as bad in Europe as in North Korea, the sort of place Paul would have recreated here.

    I am still waiting for one of these insincere cowards to post a list of the things we are not allowed to ask questions about…

    And still no comment about these terrible events:

    1. The Zionist Holocaust against the Muslims.

    2. The European Holocaust against Maori.

    3. The Catholic Holocaust in Eastern Europe.

    (Any deniers out there ?)

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  149. Pauleastbay (5,030 comments) says:

    If they are provided you will just attack the source.

    So, we won’t give him the chance, mint.

    Irving is a loathsome human, sustaining his loathsome views with a skewered view backed by encyclopedic knowledge which enables him to counter most interviewers. Having encyclopedic knowledge does not however give you the right to proport a dishonest view.

    Like I said to reid above, David Irving is not the horse you should have backed if wanting to show media bias.
    I have been unable to find anything regards a debate between Irving and a specialist historian in WWII but this is one time I m happy to go along with the appeal judges who threw Irvings appeal out regarding the Penguin and Lipstadt finding

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  150. cha (3,537 comments) says:

    Without comment.

    http://www.topfundsoehne.de/cms-www/index.php?id=120&l=1

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  151. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    backed by encyclopedic knowledge

    And what backs his attackers, lack of “encyclopedic knowledge” ?

    The issue here is freedom of speech. I find your views disgusting and dangerous. They are the views expressed by Hitler and every other oppressor of human rights. Yet I defend your right to the freedom of expression you deny others.

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  152. David Garrett (5,134 comments) says:

    PEB: Thank you for your honesty.

    And I forgot one of his claims: That “only” about 40,000 died in the Nazi death camps. That is clearly bullshit, and certainly makes one wonder why he would make such a claim since it undermines his credibility greatly.

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  153. Pauleastbay (5,030 comments) says:

    Kea

    If all you are wanting to to be able to say anything you like and for Irving to say anything he likes, fine, as long as its true I couldn’t give a flying fuck as long as you remember that for every action there is a reaction if what is said is not true.

    He fabricates evidence for his book and is found out in a civil hearing, he pays the price.

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  154. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    cha (2,123) Says:
    April 1st, 2013 at 2:45 pm
    Without comment.

    What is your point ?

    Do you understand that we crematoriums here in NZ too ?

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  155. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    “If all you are wanting to to be able to say anything you like and for Irving to say anything he likes, fine, as long as its true..”

    1. Who decides what is true ?

    2. How do you decide what is true without hearing what is said ?

    3. Why are you being such a fucking moron ?

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  156. cha (3,537 comments) says:

    Without comment.

    http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.co.nz/2011/12/belzec-sobibor-treblinka-holocaust.html

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  157. cha (3,537 comments) says:

    Without comment.

    http://www.chgs.umn.edu/museum/memorials/buchenwald/

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  158. thedavincimode (6,119 comments) says:

    Do you understand that we crematoriums here in NZ too ?

    Err?

    In my opinion, with regard to the design of an incineration oven for the purposes of a concentration camp, the ideal solution would be an oven that could be continuously loaded and likewise operated …, i.e. the corpses for burning would be loaded on at respective intervals – without interrupting the incineration process – and on their way through the oven would catch fire, burn, burn out and reduce to ash, and then land in the ash-chamber beneath the grate in the form of burnt-out ash. Here I am quite aware that such an oven must be regarded purely as a facility for extermination, so that concepts of reverence, the separation of ashes and emotions of any kind must be dispensed with entirely. All of this is probably the case already, however, with the operation of numerous muffle furnaces. Special war-related circumstances prevail in the concentration camps, making such methods indispensable. … Bearing in mind the remarks I made above, it must be assumed that the authorities in question are also approaching other oven construction companies with regard to the supply of efficient, fast-functioning cremation ovens. In these companies, the question of the cheapest method of constructing such ovens for the abovementioned purposes will be examined as well. …

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  159. Pete George (21,812 comments) says:

    Bemused and amused, it’s been announced today that I will be authoring at Imperator Fish and commenting again at The Standard.

    Seems like a good idea with all the people saying they’d love to see more of me around the blogosphere, but don’t worry, I’ll still have time to keep you informed here. Extending my blogging

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  160. Pauleastbay (5,030 comments) says:

    Kea asks:
    1. Who decides what is true ?

    2. How do you decide what is true without hearing what is said ?

    3. Why are you being such a fucking moron ?

    Who decides what is true?

    Facts,- research, eye-witness testimony, original documents, big fucking piles of rotting corpses.

    How do you decide what is true without hearing what is said?

    Facts,- research, eye-witness testimony, original documents, big fucking piles of rotting corpses.

    Why are you being such a fucking moron?

    I have been finding a quick segue into a moronic state enables me to better communicate with some on here but watching you deteriorate over the last couple of days has reminded me how dangerous this can become so to stop any chance of it becoming a permanent state I have decided to desist, it’s too risky, I must think of the kids and it’s not fun anymore.

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  161. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    Rage against the machine:lol:
    Tilting at windmills.
    New Zealand leads the way in human freedom according to an international index that ranks 123 countries.
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10858183

    The Canadian Fraser Institute has released its report evaluating how each country measures in security and safety, movement, expression and relationship freedoms.

    New Zealand topped the index as offering the highest level of human freedom worldwide

    Socialism liberalism is responsible for this.

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  162. nickb (3,629 comments) says:

    but don’t worry, I’ll still have time to keep you informed here.

    We’re not worried Pete, trust me.

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  163. thedavincimode (6,119 comments) says:

    big fucking piles of rotting corpses

    A useful indicator that the establishment in question wasn’t part of the Butlins chain.

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  164. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    Pauleastbay

    My point is freedom of speech. You have said nothing to support that and rather a lot to restrict it.

    The horrors of the Holocaust were only possible due to folk like yourself. So please cut the bullshit and your arrogant assumption that you are doing the right thing.

    Fuck you very much !

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  165. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    New Zealand topped the index as offering the highest level of human freedom worldwide

    Calm down Pauleastbay & budson, it is April Fools Day. People can not really say what they want, unless it is approved.

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  166. Manolo (12,625 comments) says:

    Watch out: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-03-31/thanks-world-reserve-currency-no-thanks-australia-and-china-enable-direct-currency-c

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  167. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    “big fucking piles of rotting corpses.”

    Like this you mean? :

    “World War I claimed an estimated 16 million lives. The influenza epidemic that swept the world in 1918 killed an estimated 50 million people. One fifth of the world’s population was attacked by this deadly virus. Within months, it had killed more people than any other illness in recorded history.”

    More people died of flu than bullets in WWII. I guess that was due to the Germans to ?

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  168. Keeping Stock (9,788 comments) says:

    @ davinci (12.45pm) – 20 demerits which might have been avoided had you checked today’s date :P

    But fear not; he sucked a couple in on his FB page too. However the offer to start a fund to send the young Ronald McDonald clone on a one-way trip to Pyongyang is anything but an April Fools Day joke; an extended stay in North Korea would be an eye-opener for Comrade Hughes, and might even cause him to address his ideology.

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  169. thedavincimode (6,119 comments) says:

    KS

    Then I downgrade my classification to nauseating, loathsome, repulsive and hypocritical oik.

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  170. Reid (15,540 comments) says:

    Like I said to reid above, David Irving is not the horse you should have backed if wanting to show media bias.
    I have been unable to find anything regards a debate between Irving and a specialist historian in WWII but this is one time I m happy to go along with the appeal judges who threw Irvings appeal out regarding the Penguin and Lipstadt finding

    Yes. Did you bother to listen to the first video to find out what he said about that trial, or are you like bhudson and you already know everything it says so why bother?

    Fact is Paul, Irving is the ideal example of smearing. I mean what more emotive topic can you get and the more emotive the more execrable it is to smear someone with it, if smearing is your objective? Almost the only thing worse is being falsely accused of peadophilia, it’s on that side of the scale. So if he has been smeared it’s really really execrable, isn’t it.

    The question of whether he has been is entirely different, more complex question. I wouldn’t insult people by telling you whether I think he has or not because who cares what I think? It’s what you think that’s what counts.

    It’s just that I’ve never looked into it before last night, but it seems to me most people seem to have made their mind up based on nothing more than media smearing and nothing of substance. The only interviews we are permitted to see are like those Hardtalk ones and those which show him as intelligent, articulate and reasonable like the first one I gave, are verbotten! And it’s a fact, isn’t it. That IS how the media plays it. Yes, it is. And isn’t that interesting, and why are they playing it that way?

    There’s more to it than that. The first video explains his origins and qualifications and why the mainstream historians hate his guts. He makes the very good point that most historians on the subjects he talks about, cite each other, and the few original source documents they rely on are false anyway, and he can prove it, and he goes on to do so. Listen to it.

    He makes other good points. He built himself a card index based on the records of the German Admiralty and he went through and indexed every single meeting Hitler ever had with anyone in those records, including data and time. it took him ten years. And at the end of it he had a detailed daily record of everyone in the Fuhrer’s contacts on any given day throughout the whole war. This gave him the ability when say a diary was published that mainstream historians pronounced genuine he could cross-reference the critical dates and times and prove the source document was false. He details those documents in the video.

    I’m not making a judgement call on it, as always for me, it’s simply a bunch of stuff that’s happening. I never get emotional about any of these issues, what places does that have to play in the question, is my take on it. Looking at it through that lens personally I think there is generated hysteria in the whole holocaust tragedy which has risked becoming a meme for some time by the overuse of said generated hysteria with a false issue here and a falsely over-hyped tragedy there, it’s just too convenient sometimes to be anything but a play for sympathy and saying that never happens betrays a naivity in international relations and the cards that are played in them, all the time. And I think Irving is a useful figurehead in that whole scenario. He references a guy who he knew, a German who was sentenced to 7 years jail not for writing anything bad, but because it might have been bad if he’d written something else. All for simply daring to speak his mind. You know that card index he took ten years to build? In 2003 the UK govt when he was overseas executed a warrant and confiscated everything. He particularly wanted that card index and do you know what? Somehow half of it’s been “accidentally” destroyed. Now why did they have to do that?

    As you know I talk about social engineering a lot. Well the holocaust meme is just another social engineering ploy just like a lot of other memes. You can see all the signs of engineering in this Irving campaign, if you’re interested in the subject of social engineering it’s a useful case study.

    Please don’t misunderstand this post by hallucinating that I’m minimising the tragic deaths of Jews, Gypsies, Jehovah Witnesses, Homosexuals, the mentally enfeebled, the doctors, lawyers, housewives, parents, children, brothers, sisters, grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins and neighbours. Because I don’t minimise them and never have.

    I’m not quite sure why Irving felt the need to make a stand on this particular issue of how much Hitler knew about it. I mean he’d have to have been a blind dumbo not to know about it, and he did say all those nasty things in public during the 30′s for no particular reason, other than to rark up the war mood into barbaric savagery, which it did. And he did approve of Reinarch I mean there’s movie of him and Hitler at the Berghoff, and the hell did he think Reinarch was going to do in Czechoslovakia? Bastard. So I don’t really get why Irving made a stand on this. Although one theory is this.

    He says on the first video that those closest to the German High Command opened up to him and him alone after his successful first Dresden book and this arose great envy in his peers. That’s an interesting piece in this jigsaw.

    If all of what he said is true, of course, and who knows that? Unlike some however, I don’t just automatically assume it’s not true, simply because that’s the sort of person Irving is.

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  171. Scott (1,614 comments) says:

    Pete George at 3pm tells us he is extending his blogging! I have been meaning to say for a while Pete that you seem a full time blogger already. Sometimes you are on kiwiblog all day. And then on your own blog. Personally I think you should get out more into the real world. Check out how our society is really going. Just saying.

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  172. Judith (5,660 comments) says:

    Kea (3,116) Says:
    April 1st, 2013 at 3:20 pm
    “big fucking piles of rotting corpses.”

    Like this you mean? :

    “World War I claimed an estimated 16 million lives. The influenza epidemic that swept the world in 1918 killed an estimated 50 million people. One fifth of the world’s population was attacked by this deadly virus. Within months, it had killed more people than any other illness in recorded history.”

    More people died of flu than bullets in WWII. I guess that was due to the Germans to ?

    —————————

    Actually one could form a very good argument that the Germans contributed to the global conditions that made the influenza virus so devastating. If it was not for the depressed conditions in many countries and the movement of people around the globe due to the war, it would not have spread so quickly. Perhaps you could try a better example?

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  173. SPC (4,654 comments) says:

    Scott, it is April 1.

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  174. SPC (4,654 comments) says:

    It is well known that famine and disease often occur during or following war. Whether the 1918 flu or the deaths from poor nutrition/starvation and disease from overcrowding. Some were deliberately killed this way – starvation rations in the Warsaw ghetto and later work camps – for those not killed on arrival.

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  175. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    Judith, yes one could speculate that. One thing that requires no speculation is the relationship between restrictions on free speech and tyranny.

    If you had the strength of your own convictions, then you would be confident Irving would only bring discredit upon himself by expressing his ideas publically. Yet you do not do that. Rather you deny any right to express a contrary view, based upon assumptions about the merit of the ideas, which you have not heard !

    It is remarkable that you are so unselfconscious about using a forum for open debate to protest freedom of speech.

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  176. bereal (3,137 comments) says:

    Hey Reid.

    A word to the wise mate.

    Try and make your point in one or two sentences.

    Often you do make sense however most people will not bother to read one and a half pages
    of script to try and figure out what you are on about.

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  177. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    My name is PauleastbayJudithbhudson. I am mentally feeble.

    “Last year the Zionists butchered over 100 million Muslim babies as part of the Muslim Holocaust. They destroyed all the records, but many respected Muslim clerics testify to the atrocities. The crimes against the peace loving Muslims are reported daily on the news, though the whole story is not revealed to the world. ”

    Anyone who questions what I have written, or conducts independent research, should be denied entry to other countries and be thrown in jail for being a Holocaust Denier !!!

    I am a raving nutter who thinks I have the moral high ground. Thank you for listening.

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  178. Monique Watson (1,062 comments) says:

    Grif
    Canadian Fraser Institute is a bunch of socialists so of course they would find that. It’s socialist circle jerking.
    Wait! deja vu.
    I think I said that last year.

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  179. bereal (3,137 comments) says:

    Speaking of Gareth Hughes,

    i think he wears that ludicrous hairstyle just to piss people off.

    Maybe he took advice from Helen Clark.

    Same barber ?

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  180. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    Here is that well known lefty liberal neo Nazi intellectual Christopher Hitchens on Irving:

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  181. bereal (3,137 comments) says:

    Hey Monique
    Your talking to Grif,
    your losing.

    Wake up girl.

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  182. bhudson (4,720 comments) says:

    I am a raving nutter

    ‘Nuff said. You’ll get no argument here Kea

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  183. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    bhudson, your a light weight coward who has refused to engage me on the points raised. Go join Hitchens and debate him asap.

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  184. Reid (15,540 comments) says:

    bhudson, your a light weight coward who has refused to engage me on the points raised.

    Hey, it’s a fight.

    Goody.

    Pistols at dawn, or swords? I’ll be your second, Kea.

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  185. bhudson (4,720 comments) says:

    @Kea,

    You were destroyed first thing when you misread what I said and started blathering on about freedom of speech. Then you proceeded to make a fool of yourself most of the day making foolish statements with neither substance nor merit.

    You couldn’t argue your way out of a paper bag son. You are the ass with the load of books on its back.

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  186. Manolo (12,625 comments) says:

    AK-47 is the weapon of choice.
    I’ll act as bhudson’s second. :-)

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  187. bereal (3,137 comments) says:

    This constant bickering over David Irving is interesting.

    It’s a welcome relief from the same usual suspects going on and on and on about global warming.

    But.

    Either you believe in free speech or you do not.

    Wanna ban someone visiting NZ because you dissagree with something that he said……

    Where does that stop ?

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  188. Reid (15,540 comments) says:

    Then you proceeded to make a fool of yourself most of the day making foolish statements with neither substance nor merit.

    Really? How extraordinary. That’s just what I thought you’ve been doing all day, bhudson. Isn’t that amazing.

    This constant bickering over David Irving is interesting.

    Whatever do you mean bereal?

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  189. bhudson (4,720 comments) says:

    @Reid,

    You would. You don’t like people who remind you about your illuminati conspiracy theories.

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  190. bereal (3,137 comments) says:

    Maybe we should establish a new position.

    The man who can decide who is, or is not granted a visa to visit New Zealand
    based on their views on certain subjects.

    We need a certain type of fuckwit to fill such a position.

    What about Joris de Bres. (or whatever that fuckwits real name is)

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  191. SPC (4,654 comments) says:

    So what is Irving about.

    Is he just a historian looking for evidence, or is he simply trying to establish expertise then capability to be of use to the team?

    1. At Nuremburg it was determined that acting on orders was no defence.
    2. Hitler was leader.
    3. Everyone in any office was under the leader.
    4. Irving tried to show there was no record of any chain of command from the top down in the “Wannassee” operation.

    No wonder the establishment remnant would talk to him.

    He says he went to see the proof and could not find any. Even the bodies were burned, damn if they did it, then those Nazi white supremacists were so smart, there is no paper trail and limited dead body evidence – just millions of missing Jews.

    His work is that of a self appointed defence lawyer posing as an expert for the defence. Joe Karam acting for the Nazi regime. Because of his intolerance for injustice to an incarcerated person, or because they want to redress “unfair” condemnation of the Nazi regime over the loss of life of 6 million Jews. There is no similar work over the condemnation over the loss of life of Poles, Russian POW’s, and various groups from within Germany.

    We can note the connection of much of it to cleansing Germany of ethnic diversity and internal dissent, and then the policy of lebensraum, to create room in the East for German resettlement.

    Given Jewish resettlement in the East and the intention of Germans to separate the Jews from them, the consequence was clear to all. And no one acted without some idea that the leader was on side with the policy. As Orwell could have said, Jewish resettlement into a zone to be cleared for Germans only, did not mean settlement – it meant dispossession of property in Germany and then life and liberty in the east.

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  192. Johnboy (13,386 comments) says:

    I’d apply for that job Beryl.

    Anyone who didn’t have a proper sort of name would be on the next plane out.

    What the hell sort of name is “Joris” for fuks sake? :)

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  193. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    bhudson, your feeble minded liar and unworthy of further attention.

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  194. Johnboy (13,386 comments) says:

    Hard to believe that sane, rational chaps can waste a whole April fools day agonising over a fuckwit like Irving.

    Get a life chaps! :)

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  195. Reid (15,540 comments) says:

    You don’t like people who remind you about your illuminati conspiracy theories.

    To the contrary bhudson but it’s only interesting to discuss the details of them as they are established amongst people versed in the subject, and you aren’t. But you somehow think that’s OK, that you don’t know, but you’ve already deciderer’d that it’s not true, anyway.

    It’s rather boring, you see.

    Sorry about that.

    But if you want to talk about alien space drives, what do you know about them, anything at all?

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  196. Judith (5,660 comments) says:

    nasska (5,985) Says:
    April 1st, 2013 at 12:39 pm

    ———————–

    You totally missed my point, I have no problem with anyone standing up for what they believe in, I have a problem with people using dishonesty and then covering their ass by saying it was just ‘freedom of speech’ when they know there is no truth in what they say.

    There are groups of people who deliberately make up lies, disseminate those lies, then use those same lies to denigrate and persecute others. Then when challenged, insist that it was just ‘freedom of speech’. Freedom of speech is about standing up for the truth as you see it – not about deliberately being untruthful so you can target someone you don’t like and encourage others to do the same, and when you are caught lying, excusing as ‘FOS’.

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  197. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    “Freedom of speech is about standing up for the truth as you see it …”

    Nearly there you stupid bitch, keep trying.

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  198. KevinH (1,128 comments) says:

    Hitler’s Minister of Propaganda Joseph Goebbels was fanatically careful to ensure that the order Hitler signed initiating the “Final Solution”never saw the light of day thereby protecting his Fuhrer from prosecution at a later date.
    However Goebbels kept diaries that have on inspection provided insights into the decision making occurring between 1941-45 that included Hitler’s orders for the liquidation of Jews:
    1.The first is a diary entry by Joseph Goebbels of December 12, 1941. It runs as follows:

    Bezüglich der Judenfrage ist der Führer entschlossen, reinen Tisch zu machen. Er hat den Juden prophezeit, daß, wenn sie noch einmal einen Weltkrieg herbeiführen würden, sie dabei ihre Vernichtung erleben würden. Das ist keine Phrase gewesen. Der Weltkrieg ist da, die Vernichtung des Judentums muß die notwendige Folge sein.

    With respect of the Jewish Question, the Führer has decided to make a clean sweep. He prophesied to the Jews that if they again brought about a world war, they would live to see their annihilation in it. That wasn’t just a catch-word. The world war is here, and the annihilation of the Jews must be the necessary consequence. [7]

    The actual order itself has never been found confirming speculation that Goebbels had it destroyed, or more bizarrely, stored on microfiche and hidden to be used at a later date by Goebbels who had delusions of seizing power post Hitler.
    Some documents including Goebbels diaries were hidden and buried but subsequently discovered and have been the focus of interpretation by historians for many years, inspiring numerous dissertations.
    However what all the comment has in common is that Goebbels along with Hitler were both nutcases of the highest order and between them they hatched and executed the “Final Solution”

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  199. Judith (5,660 comments) says:

    Kea (3,122) Says:
    April 1st, 2013 at 6:50 pm
    ———————————–
    Grow up.

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  200. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    Hard to believe that sane, rational chaps can waste a whole April fools day agonising over a fuckwit like Irving.

    It is about freedom of speech.

    I personally had never listened to Irving until only hours ago. Unlike others I heard what he had to say when Reid posted a couple of vids. All was well until the self appointed KB propaganda ministers strode onto the scene demanding that people be thrown in jail and prevented from saying what they think.

    I say fuck that ! But maybe you are happy to roll over and take it up the arse like a good gimp.

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  201. Fletch (5,722 comments) says:

    KevinH, also not forgetting Jerusalem Mufti Haj Amin el-Husseini who was an inspiration to Hitler and helped Hitler destroy the Jews. That is the connection between Islam and the Nazis. He even has his own Nazi troopers who wore turbans, but also the swastika and the sword of Islam logo.

    According to testimony by Nazi war criminals, the Mufti’s influence was critical to the German decision to annihilate the Jews of Europe. At the Nuremberg Trials in July 1946, Eichmann’s deputy Dieter Wisliceny (subsequently executed as a war criminal) testified: (here)

    “The Mufti was one of the initiators of the systematic extermination of European Jewry and had been a collaborator and adviser of Eichmann and Himmler in the execution of this plan… He was one of Eichmann’s best friends and had constantly incited him to accelerate the extermination measures. I heard him say, accompanied by Eichmann, he had visited incognito the gas chambers of Auschwitz.”

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  202. bereal (3,137 comments) says:

    Johnboy
    Two very sage posts, one after the other.
    Also

    Watch for Joris to be appointed to suck on a huge tit sometime soon.
    Maybe 2 i c to Michael Cullen.
    Lifetime suckarses together. Makes sense.

    Thats just the way things go.

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  203. SPC (4,654 comments) says:

    The organised effort to enact the Final Solution under cover of war in the East was at Wannsee, Berlin the following month January 1942.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wannsee_Conference

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  204. Johnboy (13,386 comments) says:

    Loosen up Kea. Didn’t we beat somebody at some sort of sport or something today?

    Get your priorities as a New Zealander in the correct order for fucks sake! :)

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  205. bhudson (4,720 comments) says:

    An interesting interview with Irving…

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/profiles/david-irving-hitler-appointed-me-his-biographer-1366464.html

    Notice how he branches off on tangents when presented with negative facts on Hitler – he just can’t bare to acknowledge the true evil of his idol.

    I find that refusal to acknowledge reality prevalent among conspiracy theorists when pressed with facts that inconveniently undermine the conspiracies they cling to.

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  206. Johnboy (13,386 comments) says:

    “I never really felt he believed a lot of it. I still don’t really. He enjoys being provocative. He’s an extraordinary attention seeker, always has been.” ”

    Do you think he may be a distant relly of Winston bhudson? :)

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  207. SPC (4,654 comments) says:

    Fletch, more likely Hitler was an inspiration to the Mufti and this was why the Mufti offered his support. Is there any evidence the Mufti initiated anything?

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  208. Jack5 (4,222 comments) says:

    The Campbell Live team on TV3 has been harassing Susan Devoy over her appointment as Race Relations Commissioner. Treating her like some shonky car dealer.

    TV3 didn’t pick on her Marxist predcessor, a former Auckland far-left political activist, when he was appointed. Why aren’t we surprised?

    The Campbell team is very left wing. It’s hard to understand TV3′s owners trying to make a buck from standing on the Left, where all the State media are. If only they learned from the example of Fox News!

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  209. Johnboy (13,386 comments) says:

    I’ve always said that the prick Campbell’s eyes are far too close together. My mummy warned me about folks like him. :)

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  210. bhudson (4,720 comments) says:

    @Johnboy,

    Even Winnie-the-Peters is too grounded in reality to be a relly of Irving

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  211. Steve (North Shore) (4,323 comments) says:

    I always understood the April Fool joke ended at mid day, lest you become the fool.
    Am I wrong?

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  212. Viking2 (10,716 comments) says:

    Well productivity in NZ today was failrly low.

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  213. Johnboy (13,386 comments) says:

    Quite right Steve(NS).

    I’m getting really pissed with all these folks trying to usurp my position. :)

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  214. nasska (9,519 comments) says:

    Judith

    To be worth anything freedom must be unconditional. I accept that it will be abused by some but that is a price we must pay. A few points:

    1) Free speech is effectively self policing over a medium/long term. Those who abuse it end up like the boy who cried wolf….no one listens to them & their normal reaction is to increase the volume which is a lousy strategy if they want to be taken seriously. To once again instance this blog…..few who use constant abuse & bullshit get their point across….they either adapt to peer pressure, depart or become sad objects of ridicule.

    2) Governments, especially socialist Governments, are the enemy of free speech. When the only tool you have is a hammer every problem looks like a nail & thus our elected representatives are ever amenable to legislating away our freedoms to solve problems that don’t really need solutions.

    Being offended now & again is what we put up with in exchange for a freedom that once surrendered can never be recovered.

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  215. Johnboy (13,386 comments) says:

    Thank God you’re back nasska. Do you have a good joke to cheer us up on this very serious day? :)

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  216. nasska (9,519 comments) says:

    Mick was digging a hole when Pat approached.

    “What are you doing?” he asked.

    “I’m digging a hole to bury my dog.”

    “Well,” he persisted. “What are the other three holes for?”

    Mick replied, “They were going to be to bury my dog in, but they weren’t big enough.”

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  217. Johnboy (13,386 comments) says:

    That’ll do! :)

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  218. nasska (9,519 comments) says:

    Two young brothers, aged 5 and 6, are listening through the keyhole as their older sister is getting it on with her new boyfriend.

    They hear her say, “Oh, Jim, you’re going where no man has gone before!”

    The six-year-old says to his brother, “he must be giving it to her up the arse then!”

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  219. Eisenhower (134 comments) says:

    The DPRK threw its toys out when a B52 flew over the peninsula, announcing an end to the armistice and severing the phone line at Panmunjon. Then it put its rocket forces on the highest alert after the B2 flights saying it was time to settle accounts with the US and declaring war could be hours away. Now F22′s have been sent to take part in Foal Eagle. What has Kim got next? “My pudgy finger is on the button”?…”Our glorious troops have had their last meal and are marching to Seoul”?…”I’m going to do something very very soon, I promise”?

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  220. Nostalgia-NZ (4,688 comments) says:

    The great leader will soon announce a victory and warn the south and its allies not to do it again.

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  221. Viking2 (10,716 comments) says:

    Eight Months Pregnant!

    Since the wife is eight months into her pregnancy, the husband has to sleep on the floor to avoid any regrettable mistake, which might happen pretty easily, for he has been desperate for quite a while now.

    Just before lying down on the bed, she glances at him and sees the poor guy curls up on the floor, eyes stare widely into the empty air, filled with hopeless desire.

    Feeling sorry for her husband, she opens the top drawer of the cabinet, takes out a fifty dollar bill, and gives it to him “Here, take this and go to the woman next door, she will let you sleep with her tonight and remember that this happens only once. Ok? Don’t think about it again.”

    The husband rolls his eyes in disbelief, but afraid that she may change her mind, he grabs the money and leaves quickly. A few minutes later, he returns, hands the bill back to the wife and says with much disappointment: “She said this is not enough, she wants ninety.”

    The wife’s face slowly turns red with anger: “Damn that b!tch…when she was pregnant and her husband came over here…I only charged him fifty…”

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  222. David Garrett (5,134 comments) says:

    Kevin H: Why on earth would Goebbels be concerned, and “protecting his Fuhrer from prosecution” in December 1941 FFS? Prosecution by who?

    At that stage everything was going swimmingly, and the boys looked to be on track for the 1000 year innings they expected for the Third Reich. Please explain.

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  223. Harriet (4,010 comments) says:

    John Boy#

    Q: What’s the only word that starts with “N” and ends with “R” that a Neo Nazi wouldn’t want to call a Maori?

    A: Neighbour. :cool:

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  224. Tauhei Notts (1,509 comments) says:

    Ugly Truth at 10.47.
    I visit Kiwiblog to become better informed, and to be entertained. Just as Nasska’s jokes are priceless, your comments are spot on.
    Your post this morning did more than any other post on this blog has ever done to educate me.
    I think the 22 minute video might be way beyond the attention span of many contributors to this blog.
    Ugly Truth; thank you for being so kind as to bring that sort of inarguable evidence to my attention.
    I hope you have a wonderful evening. You deserve that.

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  225. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    Jailhouse Rock: Venezuelan prisoners open nightclub in prison with strippers, music show

    http://rt.com/news/venezuela-nightclub-prison-jail-123/

    In the same prison, there is a cockfighting arena and a billiard room, according to New York Times. The inmates reportedly openly take marijuana and drink alcohol, while some of them stroll the territory of the facility with machine guns.

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  226. nasska (9,519 comments) says:

    Obviously a facility with an emphasis on rehabilitation & preparing inmates for reintegration into society Kea. :)

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  227. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    nasska, that is an astute observation, as the article goes on to state Venezuela has one of the highest crime rates in the world. If they released a bunch of choir boys back into society they would never fit in !

    We should perhaps consider this in some areas of the North Island. Down in Christchurch we could teach them important life skills such as; Rugby watching, piss drinking, random beatings and Asian hating. :)

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  228. nasska (9,519 comments) says:

    The ferals in Christchurch seem to have most of those cultural idiosyncrasies fairly well covered Kea. Mind you as they mature they seem to settle down a bit even if their sexual preferences seem a little strange to us. For instance cast your eyes over this rather touching photo of a Christchurch couple enjoying a romantic weekend at an alpine retreat.

    Ref: https://www.dropbox.com/s/1jwkz249sof0h6g/Goats.jpg

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  229. SPC (4,654 comments) says:

    Tauhei Notts, the 10.47 am video, simply recounts the number 6M Jews in USA newspaper reports, from 1915 to 1938.

    The original number referred to those living in Tsarist Russia (it then included Poland). Ukraine and Byelorussia were the front lines in that war and many of the Jews lived there and their lives were at risk. Jewish life was later at risk during the Civil War in Russia after the 1917 Revolution. Then at risk in the Soviet era famines.

    Then other Jews, those in Germany became at risk while others were still facing famine in Russia. That number was also around 6M (German and Russian), but not including those in Poland.

    That the number of Jews at risk then was similar to the loss of life in the WW2 “holocaust” demonstrates what? Those who died included those from France, Netherlands, Germany, Austria, Hungary, Italy, Czechoslovakia, Romania, Bulgaria, etc as well as Poland and Russia (Germans killed Jews in Russia during Barbarossa).

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  230. David Garrett (5,134 comments) says:

    Kevin H must be away doing some research…I’ll come back in the morning and see what he has come up with…(for those who have just joined us, the question is “Why would Goebbels be worried about Hitler being prosecuted for authorizing the Final Solution in 1941, when things were going splendidly for the National Socialists…”)

    Perhaps he was clairvoyant, which of course begs the question: why not kill the kids then and get it over with? He and Magda could have used the money saved for a high old time every night…

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  231. David Garrett (5,134 comments) says:

    SPC: As a superficial argument that’s not bad…but you are overlooking – let’s be charitable and call it that – the fact that from the original 1915 story on, those 6 million were being slaughtered or starving in the tens of thousands…Now even allowing for fairly vigorous reproduction and replacement of the lost, it does seem somewhat remarkable that the number in desparate peril remained a constant 6 million, right until 1945, when that magic number had all been exterminated…

    “somewhat remarkable”…I put it no stronger than that…

    Or perhaps the newspapers were all elaborate forgeries? If so, someone has gone to a great deal of trouble, and doesn’t even put his name to it to take the credit…

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  232. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    SPC, I wonder why the sympathy (for some) only extends to the Jews who died and not the other 20 million Russian people ?

    I would suggest that of the entire death toll of the war (Around 70 million) most were in fact Christian. Yet we only see one religion separated out from that massive toll. Separating out the Jewish part of the population, and not considering them “one of us” was exactly what the Nazis sought to do. Ironic.

    I am not terribly interested in things to do with Nazis, but because I read a lot people give me books on the subject. I formed the view that Hitlers racists attitudes probably cost him the war. He overlooked many potential allies as a result of his divisive attitude to non Germans. When invading some areas of Russia the people were apparently pleased to see the Nazis as they thought (wrongly) they would be better than the current rulers.

    The Eastern Europeans were often treated no better than the Jews and maybe worse at times. These people could have been his allies, though many were used to run concentration camps and to persecute Jews. In fact even the SS was taken back by the brutality (towards Jews) of many Eastern Europeans. They quickly decided to use this mean streak and many were guards in the concentration camps. You will note the worst camps were in Eastern Europe and not Germany.

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  233. SPC (4,654 comments) says:

    DG, Hitler’s fixation was the failure of Germany to continue to fight out WW1, he felt they had been betrayed at home. I doubt he was under any illusion that the war was won in 1941. And I doubt that he cared if Germany won the war in the end, so long as they fought to the end. He was a psychopath.

    It’s obvious that Hitler gave orders in person, and people just cited this for their authority to act. No one thought anyone would dare fake this, so believed it. Other people took to destroying evidence of their involvement.

    This earlier post covers the evidence

    Eisenhower (116) Says:
    April 1st, 2013 at 11:36 am

    Just in case you had any doubts about Irving and his contention Hitler knew nothing of the Holocaust…

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  234. David Garrett (5,134 comments) says:

    Kea: You make an excellent point, and one some Jewish historians have also highlighted. If you ever come across “Hitler’s Mistakes” by Ronald Lewin, grab it. Lewin spends a chapter on the major military errors (and even those are still argued over) but concludes that his biggest mistake of all was not making use of the talent and expertise of German Jewry….When you think about how far advanced the Hun was in the late 1930′s in jet aircraft, rocketry, and atomic research, it’s a pretty good argument…He also argues that Adolf would have done much better if he had put German women to work as the allies all did with their women, rather than have them at home getting pregnant with blond Aryans and breastfeeding…

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  235. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    “The Holocaust in Ukraine took place during the Occupation of Ukraine by Nazi Germany.[1] Between 1941 and 1945, approximately 3,000,000 Ukrainian and other non-Jewish victims were killed as part of Nazi extermination policies, along with between 850,000 – 900,000 Jews who lived in the territory of modern ”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust_in_Ukraine

    The genocidal policies of the Nazis resulted in the deaths of about as many Polish Gentiles as Polish Jews, thus making them co-victims in a Forgotten Holocaust. This Holocaust has been largely ignored because historians who have written on the subject of the Holocaust have chosen to interpret the tragedy in exclusivistic terms–namely, as the most tragic period in the history of the Jewish Diaspora.

    The Nazis sought to annihilate all Jews and all enemies of the state. Every Jew was to be wiped out, but not necessarily every Russian, Serb, or Yugoslavian. That millions of non-Jews were also killed demonstrates the determination and magnitude of the Nazi extermination program to eliminate anyone who could even remotely be considered an enemy of the state. Current estimates based on documents from Nazi war records, and official government documents of various countries, place the death toll of people murdered by the Nazis during the Holocaust as conservatively over 15 million non-combatant people.(5) One official source estimates the number killed at 26 million.(6) However, “with the mass graves on the eastern front, exact figures will never be known”.(7)

    http://www.ukemonde.com/holocaust/victims.html

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  236. SPC (4,654 comments) says:

    Kea, the policy of lebensraum was predicated on killing millions of Poles and Russians as well as the 6M Jews amongst them to the East. Sending Central and West European Jews into Eastern Europe was just to make them part of the killing field under the cover of war vs the Bolsheviks.

    Kea the 1931 Ukraine famine was mentioned in the US newspaper reports in the 10.27 link, as a threat to Jewish life in the Ukraine.

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  237. David Garrett (5,134 comments) says:

    SPC: It’s too late at night to point out the numerous holes in that silly post…have you actually been paying attention all day? I fancy myself as knowing a fair bit about the Third Reich, and I have learned heaps today from this thread…mostly – interestingly enough – from the links to dissertations published by those rebutting holocaust deniers…but perhaps you know it all already and don’t need any further reading..

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  238. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    but concludes that his biggest mistake of all was not making use of the talent and expertise of German Jewry

    Yes I have long said that. They were not Jews, they were Germans !

    Hitler reckoned they had their hands on the purse strings, so he should have used that and got them on board. Hitler was not elected on a platform of killing Jews. He was elected for reasons we hear repeated by the Maori party; closing the gaps, protecting the land and culture, allowing the average working stiff to take part in the running of the country, removing the hegemony of the old boy network, national pride and so on… All in the best Socialist tradition. It must be remembered that German people were suffering badly at this time and were desperate for change.

    If Hitler had not wasted time and resource on his insane hobby horse of racial purity, Germany’s people would have been no less “pure” and a dam sight better off. We also may have been writing our thoughts in German !

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  239. Reid (15,540 comments) says:

    Hitler’s fixation was the failure of Germany to continue to fight out WW1, he felt they had been betrayed at home.

    He capitalised on a widespread sentiment SPC. Apparently a huge number of Germans felt the Jews had betrayed Germany because many of the powerful German Jews had used the Jewish lobby in the US to pressure Wilson to declare war, which he did. I don’t know why millions of Germans actually thought that, all I know is they did. But that’s why his message of hate got so much traction.

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  240. SPC (4,654 comments) says:

    DG, well the 1931 figure for the Ukraine famine should have used the lower figure for Russia sans Poland then independent. That’s media reports for you.

    The original figure of 6M was for Jews in Russia (then including Ukraine and Poland) in 1914. That would have to go down less Poland.

    That 6M may have died in the holocaust is a coincidence. The coincidence does not invalidate the figure now commonly used.

    More than 6M were at risk in the end (rest of occupied Europe, Germany, Poland, Ukraine, Byelorussia and Russia), 6M was the death toll.

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  241. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    Kea the 1931 Ukraine famine was mentioned in the US newspaper reports in the 10.27 link, as a threat to Jewish life in the Ukraine.

    SPC, you have responded on the belief that I linked to Stalin’s holocaust in the Ukraine. In fact if you read it again, it was the NAZI holocaust, not Stalin’s. (The Holocaust in Ukraine took place during the Occupation of Ukraine by Nazi Germany)

    Regardless, was it a “threat to life” for the millions of non Jewish people who died ? (72% of the dead were not Jewish)

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  242. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    SPC, you were thinking of the Holodomor genocide in the Ukraine. Estimates of around 7 to 10 million dead. But most were not Jews, so you can research it yourself without fear of attack or imprisonment.

    This will get you started: http://faminegenocide.com/resources/unknown.html

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  243. UglyTruth (3,059 comments) says:

    The original figure of 6M was for Jews in Russia

    That 6M may have died in the holocaust is a coincidence.

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  244. SPC (4,654 comments) says:

    Ugly Truth, the makers of the video think the holocaust was a conspiracy by Zionists.

    Their evidence is that there were 6M Jews in Tsarist Russia on pre WW1. and US media used this as a number for Jews in Eastern Europe in news reports between then and WW2.

    Thus the number 6M Jews being the number said to have died in the WW period must somehow not be a coincidence but of some conspiracy.

    You’ve become an advocate for one of the dumber conspiracy theory groups on the planet.

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  245. UglyTruth (3,059 comments) says:

    You’ve become an advocate for one of the dumber conspiracy theory groups on the planet.

    What is dumb about generating a reason for Jewish people to leave Europe in order that they populate your new state?

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  246. SPC (4,654 comments) says:

    The people making the video did so to promote doubt that 6M died in the WW2 holocaust. They are not Jewish Zionists. But I think you already know that.

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  247. UglyTruth (3,059 comments) says:

    So what is the problem with their theory then?

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  248. SPC (4,654 comments) says:

    Which theory,

    1. That a coincidence that the number 6M applied to the number of Jews in Tsarist Russia in 1914 and the number of Jews in wider Europe who died during WW2 meant the latter number is somehow less credible?

    2. That threats to Jewish life in Europe: during WW1, the post Soviet Revolution Civil War in Russia, the Ukraine famine of 1931 and the combined threat posed by both the Nazis and the commies in 1938 was somehow manufactured by Zionists to promote migration to Palestine?

    Both are stupid.

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  249. Manolo (12,625 comments) says:

    April’s Fools Messiah-style: http://cnsnews.com/news/article/obama-proclaims-april-month-teach-young-people-how-budget-responsibly

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  250. UglyTruth (3,059 comments) says:

    SPC,

    1. Straw man. You are ignoring the video that I posted which shows that your “coincidence” is far more pervasive that you admit.

    2. The timing of WW1 and the Russian Revolution coincided with the establishment of the Zionist state via the Balfour Declaration. Hitler’s judenhass was reactionary, up to the time that the Zionist’s “World Jewish Congress” declared war on Germany, Hitler was supporting the Zionist cause.

    “we must, above all, make it an international political issue.” ~ Theodore Herzl
    “Anti-Semites will become our surest friends, anti-Semitic countries our allies.” ~ Theodore Herzl

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