General Debate 19 July 2013

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Harriet

Children of the damned: Kristi Anne Abrahams and the mothers who kill their kids.

KRISTI Anne Abrahams has just joined Australia’s most reviled club – women who kill their own children.

Sentenced today for murdering her six-year-old daughter Kiesha Weippeart, Abrahams has joined the ranks of women who – in the prison pecking order – are the most despised of all inmates.

The “girls” at Silverwater Women’s Correctional Centre in Sydney’s west – drug dealers, thieves, prostitutes, con-women and killers with adult victims – will all consider themselves superior to the likes of Abrahams.

They will all be sizing her up, looking out for her vulnerabilities and contemplating attacking her physically or taunting her, as a way of interrupting the tedium of life behind bars.

These are the members of this most hated of clubs:

http://www.news.com.au/national-news/children-of-the-damned-kristi-anne-abrahams-and-the-mothers-who-kill-their-kids/story-fncynjr2-1226681444193

We have to start hanging ALL murderers!
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July 19, 2013 8:07am
Pete George

An alarming analysis of the imminent demise of news in print – including a prediction major papers may go out of print in not many years time.

Ex editor of SMH Eric Beecher looks at the Australian situation but it has major implications here too. Some will applaud if our major newspapers die, but that will remove a major check on power and politics.

The death of Fairfax and the end of newspapers
Where is the journalism we need going to come from now?

I was seeing evidence for a prediction made a decade earlier by media savant Marshall McLuhan. “The classified ads (and stock-market quotations) are the bedrock of the press,” he observed. “Should an alternative source of easy access to such diverse daily information be found, the press will fold.”

The “newspaper business model”, as it’s now derisively known, has imploded.

That’s because the serious journalism of influence in Australia, apart from the government-funded ABC, resides mainly in four newspapers — The Sydney Morning Herald, The Age, The Australian Financial Review and The Australian. Between them, these four mastheads provide most of Australia’s coverage of politics, justice, economics, business, science, health, welfare, public policy, international affairs, arts, culture and ideas.

Until recently, these four employed around 1500 journalists. Today that number is closer to 1000. Within two years it could be as few as 500.

There is one solution – insisting our Government and politicians are far more open, honest and transparent.

They would still need held to account, but we could all do that by simply looking at what they do. Currently they employ journalist gamekeepers and convert them into smoke and mirrors poachers.

More open government and better connections between Parliament and the people are essential solutions.

The end of newspapers?
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July 19, 2013 8:13am
Chuck Bird

I just finished reading Rex Haig’s rough justice. It is highly likely he would not have been found guilty if he had not listened to his lawyer and took the stand. Fat chance of a lawyer admitting they did anything wrong.
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July 19, 2013 8:21am
Manolo

A city run by progressives goes broke: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20130718/METRO01/307180103/Detroit-files-Chapter-9-bankruptcy?odyssey=mod|breaking|text|FRONTPAGE
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July 19, 2013 8:22am
All_on_Red

Pete
There is no doubt that newspapers in their present form are dying. But it is the editors and journalists fault. Their bias is so obviously to the left that many will not only refuse to buy their product but also to advertise in them.
Circulation of major newspapers all around the world is just plummeting and so is profitability. Last year The Guardian lost 76 million pound. Its not sustainable.
The papers just do not produce a product that people will pay for. They have forgotten that half the market is conservative and is not all latte sipping green voters ensconced in the inner city which seems to be the niche journalists belong too and write for.
Fairfax shares are now below 50 cents. Their bankers must be very nervous and I reckon they will start splitting it up soon.
The half of the market these papers ignore and journalists don’t write for now get their information from conservative blogs.
Its simple really, to survive in a market you have to cater for the market. And they don’t.
So die they will.
And good fucking job too. I’m sick of the spin and bullshit and total lightweight journalism which infects Paper, TV and radio. Especially in the State sponsored outlets.
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July 19, 2013 8:34am
All_on_Red

I would add that contrary to journalists holding governments to account, in fact they do the opposite. The politics of most journalists, being of the left, is statist. The like big government and want more of it. Especially controlling views in the press contrary to their own.
Its true the internet is killing them and the flocking of people to blogs for information and real investigative journalism will just grow and grow.
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July 19, 2013 8:41am
liarbors a joke

A breath of fresh air..

http://1law4all.co.nz/2013/07/18/gross-impudence/
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July 19, 2013 8:45am
Pete George

All_on_Red – if you read what Beecher said the demise of newspapers has little to do with editors and journalism and everything to do with the lost of classified advertising. There are more, cheaper, quicker and more effective alternatives. Advertising revenue has dropped to about 25% of it’s peak around the turn of the century.

They haven’t made money off journalism, the newsroom has always run at a loss.

The left think newspapers are biased, the right think newspapers are biased, the centre thinks newspapers are biased. So now they can all write what they think is unbiased online.
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July 19, 2013 8:47am
Manolo

Thanks, liarbors.
Aotearoa, my ass. The country is called New Zealand. The rest is Stone Age myth and fiction.
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July 19, 2013 8:49am
sbk

on the end of the fourth(soon to be Real estate)…from 1500 to 500…shit,1000 unemployable, indoctrinated,i know better than thou types on the dole indefinitely(who is going to hire a loser eg editor with a proven track record of driving a business under)…

i suppose they can start leftist blogs…oh wait…too late,market saturation.
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July 19, 2013 8:54am
liarbors a joke

lol…idiots , didnt see that coming..

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/8937828/Rain-leaves-cathedral-tubes-soggy
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July 19, 2013 8:55am
Steve Wrathall

09:07 Felt a mild earthquake in Palmy
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July 19, 2013 9:08am
Harriet

“…..There is one solution – insisting our Government and politicians are far more open, honest and transparent.
They would still need held to account, but we could all do that by simply looking at what they do. Currently they employ journalist gamekeepers and convert them into smoke and mirrors poachers.
More open government and better connections between Parliament and the people are essential solutions….”

Pete, what’s your view on private members bills?

I believe that the process has been corrupted by parties who want to get certain policies made into law but who won’t take them to elections out of fear they won’t get elected.

Or in other words – “us MP’s will do exactly what we fucken want to do and the stupid voters can go fuck themselves – democracy? lol that’s for fucken suckers!”

If Peter Dunn, the Conservatives, 1law4all -or anyone else for that matter- went to an election on the policy “we will vote NO on all private members bills” they would get a HUGE amount of party votes.

No one wanted prostitution to be legalised nor gay marriage – but because of the PM Bills – they got rammed through parliment whilst the majority of voters said no to them. Cheers Pete.
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July 19, 2013 9:11am
RRM

09:07 Felt a pretty friggin good earthquake here in Wellington!
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July 19, 2013 9:13am
Steve Wrathall

http://geonet.org.nz/quakes/region/newzealand/2013p537512
Magnitude 5.7, Friday, July 19 2013 at 9:06:39 am (NZST)
30 km east of Seddon
ie middle of Cook Strait
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July 19, 2013 9:15am
All_on_Red

Pete
I don’t care what Beecher says. He fails to draw the link between the advertisers (who have the money) deliberately eschewing newspapers because they just don’t like what they print.
I have a client who is giving me a budget of $370,000 to spend over three months. He hates the Herald and just doesn’t want to go there…
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July 19, 2013 9:16am
Pete George

If Peter Dunn, the Conservatives, 1law4all -or anyone else for that matter- went to an election on the policy “we will vote NO on all private members bills” they would get a HUGE amount of party votes.

I doubt that would attract many voters. What makes you think it would?

I think Private Members Bills are an important party of our Parliamentary system. We shouldn’t try to stop new policies being introduced and debated.

It’s far more important to get beter systems and a better connection between Parliament and the people so we have wide and robust debate and decision making.
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July 19, 2013 9:22am
flipper

Pete George…
You are wrong re classified ads and journalism. The two are inextricably bound. But the idiot left wing scribblers (as WSC once famously called them) have never had the sense to realise the reality.

Advertisers place their shingles where other perceived, like-minded folk reside.

Newspapers such as those run by Fairfax, APN/Horrid, NY Times, Washington Post et al (and notably excluding Murdoch publications which are the subject of perpetual competitor sniping) are going broke.

KB obviously goes from strength to strength. There is even a market for the idiot fringes, both left and right in other blogs. All seem to prosper, but two dominate. No names necessary.

I give you one print example, quoted to me by a close friend, and former Editor in Chief of The Age, Melbourne: ” Since Fairfax took over, the paper has gone down in quality, and in every other respect. I no longer look to The Age for leadership. That resides with the Murdoch stable.” And so it is with electronic media. CBS, NBC, ABC, et al are on the bones of the arse. FOX, in the other hand dominates news coverage and this is reflected in their profitability and growth, even of the WSJ.
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July 19, 2013 9:26am
nasska

PG

….”The left think newspapers are biased, the right think newspapers are biased, the centre thinks newspapers are biased. So now they can all write what they think is unbiased online.”….

That doesn’t make a lot of sense. People could use social media to spread or reinforce their views but still need to get the facts of an issue. This is where newspapers, radio & TV could have a monopoly. Instead the media push partisan (usually leftist) slants on everything & burn off everyone who doesn’t agree with their editorial bias.

They are totally ignoring their role & are paying the price.
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July 19, 2013 9:26am
Pete George

If you look at sites online the most popular ‘news’ is crap, that’s what most of the advertising sheep flock to.

Currently the ‘most popular’ on Stuff:

Rain leaves cathedral tubes soggy
Maori in Oz: Living the good life
Best & worst dressed: July 19
Magnitude 5.7 earthquake rocks central New Zealand
Fire crews in Wellington city callout
Woman’s body found
Alleged killer in Sweden with new name
Daily trivia quiz: July 19
Accused soldier killer attacked in prison
Smith, Harris star with ball for Australia

It’s a pity the whole article is now paywalled but the abridged version is worth reading: Why the internet alone can’t save Fairfax.
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July 19, 2013 9:36am
flipper

But PG…..
Stuff is symptomatic of the Fairfax print stable.

The children they employ are produced by a left wing academic hatchery that provides them with further academic experience, but no qualification whatsoever to be a quality reporter (NOT effete snob “journalists”). The print and electronic reporting professions went down hill from the moment graduation from an institution became a pre-requisite for employment. There is only one thing better than continuing on the job training – one or two year’s work experience, followed by a year long “post graduate” academic study to polish up writing and other skills…..then back to “work”.
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July 19, 2013 9:48am
Harriet

“…..I think Private Members Bills are an important party of our Parliamentary system. We shouldn’t try to stop new policies being introduced and debated……”

That doesn’t make sense Pete.

You did say Pete that you wanted, and I quote “insisting our Government and politicians are far more open, honest and transparent.” – but then you also want policy hidden before elections!

So why do you now support parties hiding policy under private members bills Pete?

Why don’t they then just take all policy and all positions on policy to an election —– National would have quessed that Labour would raise gay marriage —– they could have then said before the election that they either supported gay marriage or didn’t!
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July 19, 2013 9:48am
Andrei

If you look at sites online the most popular ‘news’ is crap, that’s what most of the advertising sheep flock to.

And what do you think the advertising sheep who patronize the Stuff website should be reading Pete George, the United Future Party manifesto or something I expect
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July 19, 2013 9:49am
nasska

PG

Thanks for the link but it only explains well what is already generally known. Newspaper owners & editors failed to read the signs. If they had ditched the partisan tripe & reported the news without spin they may have survived.

In a time when your natural clientèle is deserting you the last thing you should do is to increasingly alienate the 50% of your potential market which you have ignored to date.
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July 19, 2013 9:50am
flipper

PG…

As a follow up, Fairfax et al have forgotten the five word holy writ once drilled into all good reporters.

“***: What, Who, When, Where and Why ***”
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July 19, 2013 9:58am
Redbaiter

Here is video of a 16 year-old intern with The Daily Caller, Gabe Finger, doing a better job of asking questions at the White House Daily Briefing than the national press corps! The young man got recognized by Carney for a question, and then proceeded to ask him if President Obama was going to “take any action for their security” – the security of George Zimmerman and his family, in the wake of the mountain of death threats they have received since his acquittal.

Carney responded with one of his usual non-answer answers, to which the young reporter summarized, “So, they are on their own.” An obviously perturbed Carney told him, “you can editorialize all you want, and I’m sure you will,” adding that his remark was “ridiculous.”

Later in the day, many in the national media mocked the young intern and his question. The Daily Caller’s Tucker Carlson summed up the entire thing very well:

“Some reporters in Washington are asking why The Daily Caller sent our intern Gabe Finger to the White House press briefing this afternoon. Talk about missing the point. The real question is, why did it take a 16-year-old intern to raise an obvious and important question that the White House press corps should have asked days ago? We don’t care how old Gabe Finger is. It doesn’t matter to us what his credentials are. All we care about is how well he does his job. Today he did it a lot better than most White House reporters.”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=-5Rik1vi5xQ
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July 19, 2013 9:59am
Pete George

nasska – but a significant point Beecher made was that only a minority of potential buyers and readers want serious news and analysis. Most want trivial, sensational, salatious, celibrity, gore and sports. So that is the demographic they target.

It may be shrinking rapidly – all that is more readily obtaonable online as well – it’s still a much larger demographic than those who want serious inbiased coverage.

And the sensation sheep are more likely to succumb to advertising. People who want depth and analysis generally ignore advertising and research their purchases.
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July 19, 2013 10:04am
flipper

On another tack, at a time when NZ Local Government is gearing up for another democratic scam, news of what happens when Councils must fend for themselves (as opposed to having taxpayers bail them)…..

News has just been released (5 mins ago) in Detroit that the city has filed for bankruptcy with un-payable debts of more than $18.5 billion.

The city has been over-spending by more than $120m pa for the past 20 years.
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July 19, 2013 10:06am
graham

“…..There is one solution – insisting our Government and politicians are far more open, honest and transparent.”

And who gets to decide just how open, honest and transparent our politicians should be? The politicians, like the journalists, will fall back on “protecting our sources” and “right to privacy” concerns.
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July 19, 2013 10:11am
nasska

PG

….”And the sensation sheep are more likely to succumb to advertising. People who want depth and analysis generally ignore advertising and research their purchases.”…..

Point taken. I don’t think that anything they do will make much difference anyway.

But we will adjust….something else we can use to line the cat litter tray will turn up. 🙂
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July 19, 2013 10:12am
Pete George

But we will adjust….

Yes, as we always have. The world adapted to life after Gutenberg. It will adapt again.

Some of the major changes wil be relentless and unstoppable. But we can and should reduce the need for an effective Fourth Estate – by making Parliament and Government more honest, open, and more attuned and responsive to the will of the people.
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July 19, 2013 10:24am
Pete George

nasska – I have recently been wondering what I would light my fire with if I stopped subscribing to the local ODiTy.
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July 19, 2013 10:26am
nasska

Cut old car inner tubes into strips PG….they make excellent firelighters.

Now that AGW has been debunked we can get back to recycling rubbish. 🙂
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July 19, 2013 10:30am
Redbaiter

I think PG’s fire went out long before he ever started boring people on Kiwiblog and is unlikely to ever be lit again.

Least of all by taking advice from scavenging hillbillies.
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July 19, 2013 10:33am
Ed Snack

Today’s serendipitous finding: http://randomnotes.typepad.com/rnd/2013/05/the-rules-of-political-correctness.html
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July 19, 2013 10:43am
Ross12

PG
I like others think the guy you quote and the Fairfax team ( and others like them ) have completely lost the point. We all know know advertising makes a major contibution to most newspaper revenues but I have never bought a newspaper for the advertising. I have bought them for the news. But in recent years I have bought less newspapers because their quality of reporting and journalism has dropped through the floor. The SST used to be a MUST read on sundays. Haven’t looked at one in the last five years.
Advertisers know that I am not the only one making these changes so I assume they are doing what All_on_Red’s client is doing or they are continuing to advertise but are screwing the price down so much the publishers are bleeding.
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July 19, 2013 10:53am
Pete George

All of the kittens, dead. Unless we do something. Now!

Toby Manhire reviews the escalating GCSB Bill opposition in Spy bill do-gooders get their comeuppance:

When the namby-pamby do-gooders at the Human Rights Commission expressed misgivings about the new GCSB bill and its sidekick the telecommunications interception bill, John Key showed them who was boss.

Take the privacy commissioner. She may emphasise that the new GCSB powers should be “demonstrably necessary and justified”. She may argue for a postponement of the whole process, and that “a body such as the Law Commission should be asked to investigate the most appropriate shape of legislation to govern the intelligence agencies”. But, as with the bleeding-heart human rights bludgers, this argument is easy to demolish.

And the Law Commission now?

Then there’s the Law Society. In a tediously detailed submission they say they’re concerned that “in the absence of compelling grounds for urgency, its use degrades the democratic quality of the legislative process”. They bemoan the lack of a “full and informed debate” and “proper analysis” on the need for “the intrusion represented by these reforms”.

The former director of the GCSB, Sir Bruce Ferguson, is another who has said the legislation should not be going through under urgency.

What about the Legislative Advisory Committee, appointed by the Minister of Justice and tasked with advising on good legislative practice, public law and all that? They reckon the bill lacks clarity and could do with providing greater safeguards and oversight. But they would say that.

Internet NZ, meanwhile, witter on about the absence of provision for “meaningful, adequate, independent oversight”, as well as the “lack of sufficient checks and balances”, and something about “offending the principle of the rule of law”. But you know what these internet people are like. Hackers, pretty much. Or, worse, bloggers.

Along with Tech Liberty and a bunch of other people working in the IT sector, they’ve also been banging on about metadata: about the failure to define this rapidly swelling and information-rich stuff, and the potential for its indiscriminate collection.

However, what none of these so-called experts has managed to explain is how they’d feel if their attitudes paved the way for the systematic extermination of all the world’s kittens by masked terrorist gangs. All of the kittens, dead.

One commenter says there’s more chance of being struck by lightning than killed by a terrorist attack.

The Bill should be changed then – the GCSB should be allowed to spy on lightning.

Just think how many kittens that might save.
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July 19, 2013 10:58am
Manolo

Once it was the Stranded, nowadays the GCSB bill. What’s the next obsession, P.G.?
Tell Dunne to give you the party manifesto and start campaigning chasing a mythical 5%.
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July 19, 2013 11:01am
Fletch

A new report that Obama gave $8 billion to the Muslim Brotherhood (not Egypt) to guarantee that a large portion of the Sinai Peninsula be turned over to the terrorist organization Hamas. This was supposed to be secret, but the Egyptian military found the evidence and someone has leaked it.

The video (which has gone viral) below is in Arabic, but a description follows.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_o24fcRjE44

Summary:
• SECRET agreement between the Obama administration and the Muslim Brotherhood (not the Egyptian government) to give 40% of the Sinai and the annexation of that part of Egyptian territory in Gaza. The objective is to facilitate the conclusion of a comprehensive peace agreement between Israel and the Palestinians

• This agreement was signed by Khairat el Shater (number 2 of the Brotherhood) by Morsi and the Supreme Guide FM. (FM stands for Muslim Brotherhood)

• A sum of U.S. $ 8 billion was paid to the FM.

• The document was seized by the army following the deposition of Morsi. This is the army that has leaked the news.

• An investigation is ongoing Morsi and El Shater. An arrest warrant was filed against the Guide to FM and other members of his office.

• FM signatories to the agreement are liable to the death penalty for treason.

• The Obama administration would try to reach an agreement with el Sissi (chairman of the Supreme Council of the Armed Forces): recognition of the legitimacy of the “coup” in exchange for his silence about the secret agreement. But el Sissi would be more interested in the conviction of FM and discredit their organization which is Egypt’s main source of danger.

• The Republican members of Congress are seriously looking into the case. If proven, the process of Obama impeachment could be triggered.
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July 19, 2013 11:02am
graham

“One commenter says there’s more chance of being struck by lightning than killed by a terrorist attack.”

Really? Do you have the figures to back that up?

And does that include people who aren’t killed by a terrorist attack, but are maimed, either physically or mentally?
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July 19, 2013 11:05am
Pete George

Apr 22, 2013 – New Zealand weather guru Bob McDavitt said the death toll in New Zealand for lightning strikes was about one a decade,.

International research shows that a third of people struck by lightning are killed, while three-quarters sustain permanent injuries, including paralysis and damage to the spinal cord and brain.

graham, I’ll leave it to you to show if there are more deaths and injuries than that here from terrorism.

Please also provide statistics on how many in New Zealand are frightened by terrorrists compared to being frightened of lightning.
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July 19, 2013 11:11am
Eisenhower

Huawei spies for China – ex-CIA boss
http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/world/8939317/Huawei-spies-for-China-ex-CIA-boss

The former head of the US Central Intelligence Agency and National Security Agency, Michael Hayden, believes Chinese telecommunications manufacturer Huawei Technologies is a significant security threat to Australia and the US, has spied for the Chinese government, and intelligence agencies have hard evidence of its activities.

The retired four-star general told The Australian Financial Review it was his “professional judgment” that Huawei supplied sensitive intelligence to Chinese officials, an assessment that backs up the federal government’s decision in 2011 to ban it from helping build the national broadband network.

…General Hayden said Western intelligence agencies had information about Huawei’s clandestine activities and it had, at a minimum, “shared with the Chinese state intimate and extensive knowledge of the foreign telecommunications systems it is involved with,” he said. “I think that goes without saying – it’s one reality,” he said.

…James Lewis, a director of the Centre for Strategic and International Studies in Washington and former State Department official specialising in commercial technology risk, said General Hayden’s remarks reflected the view of the US government.

“Officials within several agencies have privately told me that Huawei is a national security threat,” he said.

“While you hear rumours of the evidence, it has never come out in public before.”

…”These guys are not even transparent to themselves,” he said. “There’s no transparency around who appoints the board or who controls the ownership of the business.

“And there’s no independent Chinese government oversight committee that could give us confidence that Huawei would not do what they promised not to do.”

The CIA says that Huawei’s chairman, Sun Yafang, previously worked for the Ministry of State Security, China’s foreign intelligence service.

The company’s founder, Ren Zhengfei, was a deputy director in the People’s Liberation Army’s Information Engineering Academy, which is responsible for telecommunications research. He was elected to the 12th National Congress of the Communist Party of China in 1982.

This ain’t a case of reds-under-the-bed. China’s development has been built on copying, hacking and stealing on an unprecedented scale. The fact that Huawei could still play a role in NZ’s UFB rollout, irrespective of Chorus rejecting them as a partner, means intellectual property and bargaining positions of the likes of Fonterra, Rakon etc, could soon be disappearing up the Sino-hijacked fibre network.

The government needs to follow the US, Australia and others in banning them from involvement in any critical IT infrastructure forthwith.
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July 19, 2013 11:18am
graham

Interesting. So based on previous history, it’s fine for Pete to ask other people to back up their statistics or claims, but when he is asked to back up statistics or claims it’s up to the questioner to prove.

Right …

So on your hobby-horse of the GCSB, nobody is allowed to question any statistics or claims you provide I gather. I have to admire your single-minded ability to ignore any potential threats, issues, or anything that might distract from your agenda when pushing your obsessions there.

Anyway, to answer your question Pete, we would need to know when the data started being gathered. In the past 108 years there have been 20 incidents in New Zealand that I am aware of that could potentially be classified as terrorism. These include bombings and dynamiting of bridges. Four people have died in those incidents. How many have been injured? I don’t know.

Please also provide statistics on how many in New Zealand are frightened by terrorrists compared to being frightened of lightning.

Yassuh! Me be a good boy, me bow and scrape to almighty Pete’s demands! Doan whip me, sah!

Do you think that if you ask the residents of the Ureweras how many of them were frightened by the anti-terror raids, you might get a fairly high number?
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July 19, 2013 12:25pm
iMP

So, why does the first official gay marriage in nz HAVE to be in a church? To make a political point of course.

http://conzervative.wordpress.com/2013/07/19/the-incongruity-of-the-first-gay-marriage-in-a-church/
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July 19, 2013 12:36pm
Longknives

Good points IMP- If you are not a Christian then why the hell would you want to get married in a Christian Church? (other than to stamp your feet and prove a point)
And why aren’t the Gays demanding to be married in Mosques etc?
It annoyed the hell out of me when I read that the ‘ultimate aim’ of the Gay community was to have a Gay wedding and ‘Rainbow parade’ through Vatican City..Umm- Aren’t Gay people supposed to hate the Catholic Church??
What would this prove? Is having a float of drugged-up Transvestites screeching and swinging their cocks at people in such a beautiful and historic place really necessary?
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July 19, 2013 12:48pm
Manolo

Lovely native, a NZ export to Australia: http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/league/8934429/State-of-Origin-streaker-a-flying-Kiwi

The usual crap from the “whanau” In Nelson a cousin of Homwood, Doreen Brennan, was surprised he had streaked.
”He’s a nice boy. He was a ratbag when he was younger but he’s grown up now.”

”They live a really good life. Maybe one of the others but not Wati. He was reserved and would not do something impromptu.”
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July 19, 2013 12:57pm
Pete George

Four people have died in (potential classified) acts of terrorism in 108 years.

According to http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/weather/page-5

In New Zealand, lightning kills someone about once every 5–10 years.

So that would probably end up being more than four over a century. It could be 10-20. But that isn’t really important.

Four people have died in (potential classified) acts of terrorism in 108 years.

It doesn’t seem to be a major problem, does it. Can you tell me why we need increased spying capability and decreasde privacy?

(Answering is optional, as is another lament about how terrible it is to be asked things).
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July 19, 2013 1:00pm
cha

A city run by progressives goes broke:

Surprisingly, Detroit has 92,000 millionaires.

http://247wallst.com/investing/2011/07/13/the-american-cities-with-the-most-millionaires/2/
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July 19, 2013 1:04pm
nasska

Longknives

While I don’t have a lot of time for the RC Church I have less for the screaming, in your face actions of some of the gay community. The answers to your queries are however, not hard to see.

The gays, who from their POV have won a battle against oppression, come from Western/Christian backgrounds. They don’t identify with Muslims & I guess that the way they see it, it will be Islamic gays who will one day dance in the square at Mecca.

But the real reason gays continue to rail against the Vatican in particular & the Christian faith in general is that they have traditionally preached hatred against the gay community. The Church fought a die in the ditch battle with gay marriage legislation but this was only the latest skirmish.

As in most conflicts between opposing members of the community both sides will eventually learn to live alongside each other but it will not happen overnight.
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July 19, 2013 1:18pm
RRM

I don’t normally check in here on the weekend.. but any anniversary of the most awesome thing ever deserves a mention, so here it is in advance:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9a/Land_on_the_Moon_7_21_1969-repair.jpg
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July 19, 2013 1:39pm
graham

Four people that I am aware of have died in New Zealand. There have been many more New Zealanders that have died overseas, as I’m sure you’re aware. Now, referring to those four people who have died, plus the New Zealanders that have been killed overseas, you say that:

It doesn’t seem to be a major problem, does it.

I suspect their families might feel a little differently to you.

Now, let me ask you a few questions:
As we continue to become a more global society, do you think terrorism incidents will increase or decrease?
How many New Zealanders are affected by terrorism overseas?
Do you think we should play our part in the global fight against terror? Or should we hide our heads in the sand and pretend it will never happen here?
Would you count the very recent deliveries of white powder to Peter Dunne, Gerry Brownlee, and other places as potential terrorism?
Do you think the 23 children that were evacuated from the creche due to the “white powder scare” might have been frightened? Or maybe their parents?
Do you think that the people in the Ureweras were frightened by the anti-terror raids? Or don’t they count?
Is terrorism the only thing we should consider when talking about surveillence? What about drugs, child pornography, money laundering?

Answering is optional.
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July 19, 2013 1:42pm
RRM

Pete George;

I suppose there’s only so much anyone can do to protect people against lightning strikes.

Whereas there are activities that can be done to combat terrorists and their activities… and if we can do something about it, perhaps we should??
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July 19, 2013 1:42pm
Pete George

RRM, yes we should do something about it, most agree with that. The issue is how much should we allow our spies to do about it, in secret, and how much of our privacy are we prepared to give up to enable that.

And we should keep in mind that once data is collected and stored overseas there is nothing we can do about it. That data may be held for decades. It might impact on family and friends, not just us.

The FBI have revealed they have a million people on their ‘watch and stop’ list for terror suspects.

People on the list are stopped from flying into America or subjected to intense questioning at border crossings before being allowed entry into the country.

The information is analysed by the Department of Homeland security and if a match is found with the FBI list visitors are either stopped from flying or forced to go through extra security at check-in.

As many as 40,000 people a year are added to the list.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1161254/FBI-MILLION-people-watch-stop-terror-list.html

And this happens. Recently a US citizen was in Asia and went to board a plane and was stopped. They had to camp for four days at the airport until a US official came to interview them. They said they would only do that if they had advice from a lawyer. So they were locked up for six days. Then with no explanation they were allowed to travel again. Lucky for them it wasn't to Guantanamo.

We probably won't be stopped by the US when we travel. But we probably won't be affected by terrorists either.
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July 19, 2013 1:59pm
Harriet

Very well said Imp.

The gays are angry that the Churches mere existance is to support what is CENTRAL to the Church, humanity, and God’s message: natural order reproductive relationships.

Two sexes exist on earth, a man and a woman. And one is no better than the other as it takes both to reproduce. Gay relationships are otherwise: men are better for men and women are for women – or so the gays say.

But without that relationship between a man and women – nothing happens on earth. At all.

On the otherhand, the gay ‘community’ has nothing at it’s CENTER as it does not reproduce.

It’s merely just a bunch of individuals -at any given point of time- who gather together around the ‘deviations’ of sex. Much like bird watchers or trainspotters gather about. It’s very over rated.

If gays believe that anyone or anything[a church] should not support or recognise the IMPORTANCE of the centrality of human existance[reproduction and related matters] – then they’re bloody mad!

There is nothing wrong with having people gather together, celebrate and worship an absolute truth such as ‘natural order reproduction’ – as it makes for a more ‘diverse’ society – as it naturally would! 😎
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July 19, 2013 2:11pm
Lance

There are always facts that reveal that there are disproportionate responses to just about any issue;

( I am not saying one issue is more important than the other, rather facts are interesting)

People fret about AIDs but Hepatitis is the big killer
Lightening killed 3239 people from 1959 to 1994 in the US – so a much higher death rate until 911. Then things changed.
Breast and Prostate cancers kill at about the same rate yet prostrate cancer research receives far less funding
Hippos kill 2900 people in Africa annually, not Lions etc.

The list goes on.
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July 19, 2013 2:12pm
Pete George

Answers for graham

As we continue to become a more global society, do you think terrorism incidents will increase or decrease?
Internationally, I don’t know, that depends on many things. There is no sign of it increasing here in NZ, but if we joined and invasion of a country (as per Iraq) that would increase our risk.

How many New Zealanders are affected by terrorism overseas?
I don’t know and it depends on what you mean by “affected”. I have been affected. I have had to queue for screening. And I was pulled aside at Athens airport for close inspection a few years ago – I think it was becasue my shoes trigeerd a scanner. but they didn’t explain when they let me go.

Do you think we should play our part in the global fight against terror?
Yes.

Or should we hide our heads in the sand and pretend it will never happen here?
No, and I don’t know of anyone who is doing that.

Would you count the very recent deliveries of white powder to Peter Dunne, Gerry Brownlee, and other places as potential terrorism?
Best guess is it was a drug nutter trying to make a point. They weren’t prevented from doing it, and I don’t know if extra GCSB spying would have changed that.

Do you think the 23 children that were evacuated from the creche due to the “white powder scare” might have been frightened? Or maybe their parents?
I’m sure there were some concerns at least, as well as inconvenience. Do you think NZ POst should open and inspect all mail to try and prevent incidents like that?

Do you think that the people in the Ureweras were frightened by the anti-terror raids?
My guess is that some where, but I can’t speak for them.

Or don’t they count?
They count like anyone else. But remember, they would have been scared by an over-the-top police action, not by terrorists.

Is terrorism the only thing we should consider when talking about surveillence? What about drugs, child pornography, money laundering?
Of course they need considering, they are aready covered by our laws.

But none of this addresses the main issues regarding the current GCSB Amendment Bill.

Do you think John Key and his caucus should take the concerns about the Bill, as expressed be a number of individuals and groups (some of whom were detailed in my comment that kicked this discussion off) seriously and give them due consideration?

Or do you think a flipant diss from the person the bill would entrust all our spying power to appropriate?
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July 19, 2013 2:17pm
Pete George

Since 2000 there have been 68 forestry industry deaths in New Zealand (the latest one this morning).

Maybe the GCSB could be more effectively employed spying on forestry workplaces to see if they can spot unsafe practices.
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July 19, 2013 2:26pm
Longknives

You seriously think the Police action in the Ureweras was “over the top” Pete??
Pray tell- Just how should the Police have responded to a group that were manufacturing explosives, importing weapons, planning to murder our Prime Minister, planning to blow up dams and kill civilians etc etc?
Give them a cuddle perhaps?
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July 19, 2013 2:33pm
graham

“A flippant diss”.

What, you mean like this:

However, what none of these so-called experts has managed to explain is how they’d feel if their attitudes paved the way for the systematic extermination of all the world’s kittens by masked terrorist gangs. All of the kittens, dead.

One commenter says there’s more chance of being struck by lightning than killed by a terrorist attack.

The Bill should be changed then – the GCSB should be allowed to spy on lightning.

Just think how many kittens that might save.

Or maybe, this:

Maybe the GCSB could be more effectively employed spying on forestry workplaces to see if they can spot unsafe practices.
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July 19, 2013 2:36pm
Pete George

Graham – none of those organisations have made submissions to me, and I’m not the Prime Minister wanting to give myself more spying powers.

You didn’t answer the question prior to the one you addressed.
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July 19, 2013 2:42pm
bhudson

I suppose there’s only so much anyone can do to protect people against lightning strikes.

Issue everyone with 1-irons to hold above their heads in a storm. According to Lee Travino, even God can’t hit a 1-iron…
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July 19, 2013 2:45pm
Pete George

Longknives – I agree that the police were right to investigate what Iti and co. were doing. But…

Urewera raids report: Commissioner apologises

The Independent Police Conduct Authority’s report released today found in some areas police acted “unlawfully, unjustifiably and unreasonably”.

Sir David’s report said the detention of the occupants at five properties of the 41 properties raided was “unlawful and unreasonable”.

Police were also criticised for the unnecessary stopping and searching of vehicles and taking 66 photos of drivers and passengers, including children. It left some people feeling “degraded and intimidated”.

Police have made “many” changes to policies and practices since the raids and continued to rebuild trust with the Ruatoki community, Mr Marshall said.

…the police seem to have accepted they were over the top on that raid.
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July 19, 2013 2:51pm
jonnobanks

The way Harriet keeps going on about the gays, he must be so far in the closet, he is bumming Mr. Tumnus 8)
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July 19, 2013 2:52pm
Nookin

The last vestige of the Justin Vaughan era is about to disappear over the horizon.

How Vaughan could ever have thought it appropriate to saddle the new coach (Wright) and a new CEO with a personnel hierarchy into which they had no input beggars belief.

Thankfully, we now have an almost total cleanout and can start afresh.

I am still undecided about David White. He came out of the Hesson/Taylor affair badly. His refusal to comment (ESP on Buchanan’s departure) is reminiscent of the Jack Sullivan presidency of the Rugby Union. Sometimes, however, when you are dealt a shitty hand you have to grin and bear it.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/cricket/8940466/John-Buchanan-joins-the-NZC-exodus
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July 19, 2013 3:40pm
sbk

@Eisenhower 11.18am…yep…but so does everyone else(ok,maybe not to the same degree)…in essence,why look a gift horse in the mouth…on a cloudy day you can see for miles.

but hey…good market for retro-fitters…typewriters,drafting boards and the like…works for the Russians.

or as a aside/alternative…breeder of carrier pidgeons…aha,opportunity abounds…chief Falconer for the spooks ;-).
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July 19, 2013 5:34pm
bereal

Here is a case which involves a very, very silly cow who has been conned, hook,
line and sinker by a deviant psycopath.

And the silly cow of a lawyer still does not get it, she says the psycopath is the best
kisser she ever had and that they are in love.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/politics/8932857/Lawyer-claims-setup-against-her

She is assisted in her defence by disbarred lawyer and bankrupt Barry Hart.

Aint Karma a beautifull thing.
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July 19, 2013 7:42pm
nasska

The next door neighbour invited me to a Muslim wedding yesterday. To be honest, the reception was not much different from a regular bash, with kids running riot and sliding across the dance floor on their knees.
All of a sudden, Mohamed gets up and gives a young lass of about eight who was rolling about the floor a smack, tells her to behave, and to go sit with her mother. “That was a bit harsh” I said, “In the UK, we expect kids to be a bit lively at a wedding reception”

“Maybe so” he growled, “However, in Islam we expect a bit more decorum from the bride.”
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July 19, 2013 8:00pm
Rufus

Really pissed me off to read Rosemary Macleod’s piece in The Press yesterday about the Martin-Zimmerman case.

She happily promotes all the demonstrably false memes that the left and blacks are screeching about in the States at the moment: a poor black child being murdered by a big, angry raciss white man.

Why, o why, can our hacks not perform even the most basic of research and give us the FACTS?

They’re readily available.

But then I guess those facts do not support the propaganda she is pushing (=white bad, black good. White male badder, black male better. White armed male the worst kind).

And no mention of how many blacks have been killed by other blacks since hispanic Zimmerman defended himself against Trayvon.

Dishonest hack. And they wonder why our print media is in decline.
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July 19, 2013 8:04pm
bereal

Nice one naaska. 8.00

Here’s an oldie but a goodie, maybe it came from you ages ago.

Bloke tells his doctor, “Doctor, i’ve got aids.”
Doc says, ‘Who did you catch it from ?”
Bloke says,”How should I know ? Do you think i’ve got eyes in the back of my head ?”
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July 19, 2013 9:12pm
bereal

This silly cow is so arrogant it’s breathtaking.
i was in court today. She must have either a death wish or some super
clever plan to get a mistrial.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10900242
This matter is before a Judge only, no jury.
Why would you continually go out of your way to piss the Judge off unless you had
some super genius plan hatched out with your mate, debarred POS Barry Hart to get a mistrial ?

Also, Christopher Harder (remember him) was in the courtroom today.
Could have been just an observer or maybehe is part of the dreamteam of disbarred lawyers
trying to help a like fellow, kindred soul.
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July 19, 2013 9:40pm
Nookin

Bereal

Mr Harder was never really a bosom buddy of Mr Hart and so I doubt whether they could be called a dreamteam. I seem to recall that they may actually have come to blows in court on one occasion.

Tell us, was it entertaining?
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July 19, 2013 10:34pm
bereal

Well, they acknowledged each other like old mates.

Harder was wearing worn out grey courdroys and an unpressed a shirt, unkempted greasey hair,
looked like one step up from a homeless person.

i just wondered why he was there 4 this case in particular. (havent seen him 4 ages)

Entertaining ? Yep, but only insofar as we watch NZ/British Justice prevail .

The Judge seems like he is not going to brook any shit from these charlatans.
i think justice will be done.
Watch this space.
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July 19, 2013 10:57pm
Rufus

Detroit.

http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/2013/07/if%20i%20had%20a%20city.jpg

LOL
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July 19, 2013 10:58pm
Tauhei Notts

I hope to have an essay on here, late Sunday morning, about dreadful police actions in a provincial town.
If it appears it will be rivetting reading.
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July 19, 2013 11:01pm
Manolo

Pitiful lamentations: http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/07/19/Obama-Trayvon-could-be-me
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July 20, 2013 6:28am
Manolo

More on Detroit: http://michellemalkin.com/2013/07/19/heh-guy-who-wants-entire-country-run-like-detroit-rips-motown-warns-america/
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July 20, 2013 6:42am
hj

Mish’s Global Economic analysis
City of Houston is Bankrupt (So are California, Oregon, and Pension Plans in General)

Houston, we have a problem. We are bankrupt.

That is the finding of Bob Lemer, CPA, Retired Partner at Ernst & Young; Aubrey M. Farb, CPA, Retired Partner at Grant Thornton; and Tom Roberts, CPA, Retired Partner at Fitts Roberts.

http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2009/10/city-of-houston-is-bankrupt-so-are.html#eckCslhcolIZKXho.99
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July 20, 2013 10:02am

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