My key aim is to have comprehensive transparency in local government, and I think this can be established and proven in Dunedin. It can grow from there, including into central government, bottom up (the top won’t readily give it to us).
The factsheet confirms how the politically correct answer is always to blame poverty and to call for more welfare.
Yes. It’s a shame the dept doesn’t look into “benefit dependency vs education” and “benefit dependency vs aggressive attitudes as a means of solving problems” because then they might get somewhere in terms of actually stumbling across a real cause-effect relationship, rather than assuming they already know what causes it and looking for data that backs up their “conclusion.” But then, if they did that, they’d have really to care about the truth, wouldn’t they. And when was the last time any of the arrogant minds that work in this area in govt, in academia or in quangos ever gave any signal they about anything other than their own massive arrogant egos?
I agree with you in essence, but please don’t label ‘academia’ as all inclusive.
There was an excellent piece of research done during the 1990′s (which I am damned if I can find on line to link, but if I have time will scan it and drop it into Mega, will have to check ‘rights’ first). However, this research was a warning against allowing welfare dependency – it is incredible to read the forecast in it, because that is exactly what we have now. There have been warnings for years from a variety of studies regarding welfare dependency.
Yes, throwing money at it is probably the only way to get rid of it. But money thrown in the right direction is not a bad thing. We have to create jobs – it doesn’t matter what they are, but people need to work – we have to reinforce the value of the work ethic if we want to beat this, and the only way we can do that is by making sure there is work for all (regardless of the skill base). If we do it for long enough, eventually it will be financially viable.
Thanks Judith, I look forward to reading that research if you can find it and yes I apologise for labelling. On the jobs front, I don’t think any politician disagrees with what you say. But I have observed that the conservative approach is to leave it to the market while the left’s approach is to use taxpayer money to pay people + talk endlessly about it. The latter we saw in spades during Hulun’s regime – endless talk. This in my reading seems to fool many voters into thinking that the left is the only ones who care about jobs, because for some unknown reason the conservatives haven’t copied the same approach, which is nuts in my view, since all it takes is endless talk.
But that’s the basic schism and because most don’t understand economics you have this misunderstanding out there amongst voters that conservatives don’t care about jobs, which is totally false. What would be useful is proper debate on which approach produces the best outcome under any given economic condition, but that takes media people and people in academia who understand economics, and there are very few of those.
Another thing which would help is discussing the basic psychology around the work ethic. There are dynamics that arise if one works or doesn’t work which are similarly little understood by many and it’s those dynamics which produce most of the deleterious effects one sees in the unemployed and they include everything from anger to depression to loss of confidence and lack of self-worth. And if people out there in voter land could get their heads around that, I think we’d see a lot of grass-roots solutions arising as those in a position to help motivated themselves to provide anything, because those psychological are largely mitigated by having any job, not just a great job that pays well. Plus there would be demand on the politicians to design a system that accommodated such grass-roots efforts rather than the existing system which is black and white, either get cut-off from a benefit or not, there is no gray.
Good post Reid. What left voters fail to understand is that Conservatives are always going to be pro job creation. They generally have experience in business and understand they need people to work for them in order to be prosperous
Both Ugly and Kea would greatly benefit from reading this recently published historical book on Christianity in Rome. It might off-set both of their fantastic ideas about the past which have been made apparent in the last few weeks.
I’d rather go to church Steve. And pray to the almighty that those pampered Rich Kids don’t swindle another 50 million of taxpayer cash out of the long-suffering New Zealand taxpayer for an event that means nothing. (other than a chance for Dean Barker and co to swan around in designer clothes and avoid getting real jobs)
I have never set foot on a sail boat nor have any wish to do so but I was very happy to see Barker and Co go 2 up on Coutts and Co. At 80 km/hr those things are pretty freaky. Be pretty hard to haul up a cray pot with one tho.
I find myself agreeing with Judith in regards to Hides article…
This won’t be popular view…
Ask any beneficiary if they think they receive enough money to live only and I can almost guarantee they will say… Hell no. Ask them if they feel responsible for the fact they are on a benefit, and the answer will not be no, but a flood of reasons why its not their fault. (And yes, I acknowledge there are those, who have recently lost their jobs due to redundancies and business failures)
Those that are long term beneficiaries are convinced there are no jobs out there so why bother even trying looking. The only significant “pay rise” they get is to have another child included on their benefit. There is no apparent consequence that they can see, for being on benefit.
When you don’t feel responsible for supporting your family, putting a roof over their heads, food on the table, clothes on their backs, I suspect you suffer from a loss of self respect. Lack of self respect has many faces… Aggression, depression, victim mentality and a sense of entitlement. When you no longer feel responsible or feel you have no control over your life, why would you care about those in your care?
Idle hands are the devils playground, so to speak, so I do believe more job ops would equate to more employed kiwi, which would be better for the economy, better for people’s state of mind and better for our babies. Just maybe…maybe if dad had a job he’d feel better about himself, wouldn’t feel inclined to smack the missus around, the missus wouldn’t take it out on the kids. And no, I don’t think the above is any excuse for nz’s child abuse rate. There is no excuse)
As hard as this is to say, because I too spent 2 years on benefit, it needs to be cut off. It’s the only incentive strong enough to create employment, remind people what a work ethic means, and for people to take care of our families. Because our families are suppose to be for life, and our responsibility to them doesn’t cease because they turn 18.
“Don’t mind longknives, Steve. He’s the grinch when it comes to anything New Zealanders might feel positive about.”
Not a “Grinch”. Just can’t stand bullshit and hype….
What has the America’s Cup done for the San Francisco Economy?
Take a look at how many spectator craft there are watching the racing- Oh that’s right..there are none, zilch,zippo.
Because nobody gives a fuck. The “World” isn’t “watching” as Martin Tasker breathlessly claimed the other night.
And If you guys think having a three syndicate yachting tournament in Auckland is going to somehow ‘do wonders’ for our economy I’ve got a bridge I’d like to sell you…
Enjoy the return on the tens of millions of taxpayer cash you have spent. All it has done is buy Dean Barker and co some new sunglasses and stylish clothes..
Afternoon Red. Despite my absence I have been keeping an eye on the proceedings here and feel I have to congratulate you on your unfailing ability to continue to strike to the heart of the backsliders and the apologists that seem to have taken over the conscience of NZ. Well done old chap!
PG @ 8:10am – You are making comments here on local Government elections, policies and regulation. Given that you yourself are running for the office of Mayor of Dunedin, am I misguided to expect you to include prominent declarations of interest in your relevant KB comments?
Johnboy : “What a happy, well adjusted bunch we seem to be today! Amazing what a victory at a minority, rich pricks sport can do to the collective psyche of the NZ proletariat.”
Sporting success, the opiate of the masses. Look at the calendar and work out when Team NZ will achieve the ninth win it needs. That’s when J Key will be overseas doing important work. Probably in a town called San Fran something or other. Wins in minority, rich pricks sports are important not just to the collective psyche of the NZ proletariat but also to those wanting to control the NZ proletariat.
That in its self is staggering but to cap it off its to be built-in Manukau City , yep, 20 kilometers down the motorway from the CBD, its to be part of a 94 million dollar build.
Yes that 20 kilometers from the majority of hotels where tourists stay, 20 kilometers from where the cruise ships berth. Yep get off my cruise ship and have a gentle walk to the museum 20 kilometers away.
The Centre’s activities would promote lifelong learning through community-focused education and exhibition opportunities that reflect New Zealand’s new and changing demographics.
and other beltway wank.
Manuaku City one of Aucklands must go to’s on a day off!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I caught parts of The Nation on 3 and Q+A on 1. Saw DPF on there of course.
The Greds have no hope with any of the fat-necked troughers as leader. Robertson is a liar, Jones is a joke, and I’d like to try to scrub Cunliffe clean with a toilet brush.
Seeing union members rallying is certainly an unpleasant visual. The braindead bigoted masses. The Islanders… ‘we’re Christians, so we don’t want a gay PM’. So… they weren’t backing Robertson. What a charming simple-minded ethnic group. And the crowd as a whole….minimum braincell morons. Waving their flags like special needs retards. Shit… these idiots have the vote.
‘Why do you like Cunliffe?’……*pause*….*pause*….*pause*….*pause*……’because he’s looking after us’ (said by an adult that sounds like a slow five-year-old). Yeah, that’s an answer. That’s like saying.. ‘fuck, I don’t know… because they’re meant to go easy on the dickheads in society?’
This country is full of fucking ugly looking expressionless badly-dressed dumbarse retards!! And they’re breeding like flies!!!!!!!!
Labourtomy Party. Get one and give us your party vote.
Well probably not very much in the myopic view of the ignorant.
What will it do should they bring it back to Auckland?
Very hard to accurately quantify but even the fatal crash that struck the Louis Vuitton boat Artemis would have brought considerable associated recognition to Lil Ole NZ.
I am a disgruntled occupier of Akaroa with the invasion of the 84 cruise boats unloading thousands of tourists to bring massive change to the paradise I chose for my retirement last year.
That said I am not so bereft of sufficient commercial nouse to ignore the potential associated activity that will give impetous to the continued growth we need to survive at the end of Highway 75.
100 boats this year, say 100 000 visiters who would otherwise be unlikely to ever even hear about this place and when they go home and tell 10 people what a beautiful place we have, that is a million potential visitors.
I am just being a NIMBY but at least I can see it even if it annoys me.
Nice Grave Dodger. Until this year I have lived in paradise for 15 years. Christmas time, hundreds and hundreds of visitors, clogging the boat ramps, the beaches and the roads. But those hundreds and hundreds are the living for many in our little paradise and that Xmas time frame is when they make their dough ,its not for ever either, its 2 months and then you’ve got your retirement back.
New Zealand needs tourists, the Auckland boat builders will pick up much work if th cup comes back, thats ‘if’ – every little bit of spend helps, creates job and is taxable income.
mandk, I did go to church with a god bothering lady friend recently. Surprisingly the windows did not implode and the bibles did not burst into flame. I even think I sang better than my friend
Both Ugly and Kea would greatly benefit from reading this recently published historical book on Christianity in Rome.
Lucy your historical ignorance is well established. You do not even know what is contained in your own bible. If you want to learn about Christianity then why are you looking to Italy and not the Middle East where it came from ?
O Ram, come to our aid.
O Sheep, make haste to help us.
Glory be to the Sheep and to the Ram and to the Frenched Rack,
as it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be,
world without end.
Ram, we praise thee, now the night is over,
Active and watchful, stand we all before thee;
Singing we offer prayer and meditation:
Thus we adore thee.
Monarch of all things, fit us for thy roasting dishes;
Banish our hunger, health and wholeness sending;
Bring us to heaven, where thy sauces united
Joy without ending.
All-holy Ram, Sheep and Frenched Rack,
Trinity blessed, send us thy mint sauce;
Thine is the glory, steaming and odourful
Through all roasting.
This is on top of the seriously powerful Russian anti-ship and surface to air missiles Syria already has.
And while China isn’t saying much, in the background it has always been with Iran and both Russia and China know this is what Syria is about – Iran is the real target and always has been. Syria is Iran’s last major ME ally and Syria is the line in the sand they have drawn. They allowed the UKUSA to do it to Libya but they’re not going to allow them to do it to Syria. Simple. As. That.
Which is what I’ve been saying for 2.5 years now. And their position has never changed. This is a direct challenge to the UKUSA hegemony in the ME and either the US backs down or they risk a Russia/China-US conflict in which Israel is a certain first casualty from Iran.
And notwithstanding idiots who still think it’s Morning in America, this didn’t need to happen and has been caused wholly by UKUSA arrogance directed and led by the nose from Tel Aviv and implemented by the bought and paid for Israel-first US politicians traitors.
Dime has a couple of different groups of friends. Musicians (they dont watch sport) and everyone else. Apart from the musos, everyone was watching the americas cup this morning and loving it. i went to my nieces birthday party today, the discussion amongst the adults was all americas cup. loving it.
im not sure why some sad sacks always have to hate what other people enjoy. they always quote how “no one is watching” “its not popular”. so? some great bands sell bugga all records, does that mean i should stop listening to them and go buy lady whoever the fuck?
as for the cash…
id prefer we didnt put money into it BUT its not dead money. the GST alone on team nz and luna rossa has probably come close to paying back the govt. plus the PAYE and the jobs etc.
to say the amercias cup wont provide a benefit to our economy if we win is just silly.
as for robbie deans.. the catch cry of “wish they had him back”…
the damage that moron did to aussie rugby will take years to repair.
he basically gutted them of all experience. imagine dime coaching the all blacks, dime fires owen franks, whitelock, richie, read, dan carter, cruden, conrad and maybe dagg… then a coach takes over and loses a few games. whos fault is it again? the new guy right?? bring back dime… all hail dime…
Reid, I have always been concerned that Iran, Russian and China would square off against Obama’s war mongering. As well they should do. Obama is pretty much out of control as he demands war, against the wishes of his own people and the international community. He has to be stopped and lines must be drawn.
Who every Obama serves it is not the American people and it sure as hell is not the Syrians. He is clearly acting for Israel. It is wrong that every human being on earth should be at risk simply to please a few jews squatting on someone elses land. If Obama was serious about world peace it would be Israel he bombed, not Syria and the rest of the Muslim world. The West gave jews their religious kingdom, now it is time to leave them to it. They can fight their own wars. Muslims are not the Wests problem, they are Israels. And if they do not like living surrounded by Muslims, then they can go back home to Europe & the US, from where they came.
Marxists versus evolutionary psychologists… you can see who has won (Govt. ngo’s) – so far:
Today, under the rubric “environmental security,” many nonanthropologists who work on issues of international security embrace that ecological view. Recent outbreaks of violence, they argue, may be rooted in scarcities of subsistence goods, fueled by growing populations and degraded resources (such as too little and eroded cropland). But when you examine the cases for which that interpretation seems superficially plausible-the conflicts of the past several years in Chiapas, Mexico, for instance, or in Rwanda-they fail to confirm the “ecological” theory.
We anthropologists are just beginning to bring our experience to bear in the environmental security debate. What we find is that if a peasant population is suffering for lack of basic resources, the main cause of that scarcity is an unequal distribution of resources within the society, a matter of politics and economics, rather than the twin bugbears of too many people and not enough to go around.
I have worked in the marine industry in Auckland for a long long time. I have seen this happen before with Peter Blake winning.
I have known Dean Barker since he was about 7 (him and Ray were customers) If the Americas Cup comes to Auckland it will have a REAL trickle down effect, not a pretend numbers on paper one.
Please come to Auckland one day, I will show you around a City where we don’t give a fuck about Len Brown, we just enjoy ourselves
I also heard Cunliffe making ‘all the right noises’ to any of the flock listening about the increasing gap between rich and poor in NZ.
Poor unintelligent people in NZ have a higher birth rate, and generally have children at a younger age. And make poor choices. Are more likely to split. It’s a numbers game. More poor people means more inequality. Driven by more poor people having been created.
There’s no answer either short of limiting family size. There will be an ever-expanding underclass/ working poor… with the accompanying worsening misery stats, social dysfunction and increased govt spending and NZ falling further down the OECD list in every category.
“……The West gave jews their religious kingdom, now it is time to leave them to it. They can fight their own wars. Muslims are not the Wests problem, they are Israels. And if they do not like living surrounded by Muslims, then they can go back home to Europe & the US, from where they came…..”
You are a complete fucken idiot!
1ly, the west gave it BACK to them as ‘victor’s spoils’ from the war!
2ndly, like NZ, Israel NEEDS allies! Or are you saying that NO ONE should have allies?
3rdly, Muslims ARE ALSO the wests problem – WTF have you been?
4thly, a HUGE proportion of Jews who went to Israel after the war were from Russia – and Europe and the US is not ‘home’ for Jewish people – but were places of ‘refuge’!
And finally David Shearer…. what a difference a resignation can make. What a shame that he couldn’t be the great ringmaster he was capable of being, instead; dragged down by the many clowns who truly run the Gred circus.
I thought he interviewed very well…. and clearly having to compromise his leadership style to pander to the party attack attack attack strategy that has failed the last two elections meant he was set-up for failure from the start. Davey claimed he wanted to take the high road politically. Show a bit of class and dignity. What party was he trying to lead again? Exactly…
Colville (1,125) Says:
September 8th, 2013 at 10:48 am
I have never set foot on a sail boat nor have any wish to do so but I was very happy to see Barker and Co go 2 up on Coutts and Co. At 80 km/hr those things are pretty freaky. Be pretty hard to haul up a cray pot with one tho.
Think about this. That boat was sailing along at near 80 kph. Guys were racing across the deck and standing up etc. could you do that on the back of a ute or a truck.
Harriet, So you admit a patch of the Middle East with a colourful history of numerous religions and cultures was given to one particular religious group by meddling Western powers as “spoils of war” to satisfy the selected groups religious fables. Firstly the establishment of Israel is not consistent with Jewish scripture and secondly, if it is about war spoils, then the land can be retrieved by the same means in your view ? A recipe for disaster and opposed by many informed Jews themselves.
Yes they can have allies. I am just saying those allies should not be the West. We should have a neutral policy in the ME and not play favorites. The anti US sentiment is due to their support of Israel, supplying this wealthy country with billions in aid and military hardware, while US people go hungry and can not get health care. Not to mention the American lives lost and trillions and trillions spent fighting and killing Muslim on Israels behalf by means of proxy wars. More Americans have probably died as a result of Israel than due to all the Muslim countries put together.
Oh gosh ! I knew I should not have clicked on that link. I am unsure what this violent sub culture has to do with the English game of guys groping each other in a paddock. Who’s every “culture” this represents, it is not this countries.
Were you not aware that Maori have claimed ‘invention’ of Rugby Union??
I will try to find the link (I posted it during the RWC in 2011 when these claims mysteriously emerged..)
The gist of it was that English Whalers and early explorers saw Maori playing the game when they first arrived here a couple of hundred years ago..took the idea home and fraudulently claimed the game for themselves.
So add rugby to everything else that they own ‘spiritually’.
They also invented tattoos don’t you know?
Recently there were revelations that at Westminster 300000 attempts to access porn websites were made in the past year. We now find that 30,000 similar attempts were made from within the NZ parliament during the same period.
A young man ran into his stunning neighbour wearing only a robe. He boy smiled, and she started chatting with him. As they talked, her robe slipped open, and it was obvious that she had nothing else on.
She poor kid broke into a sweat trying not too look, After a few minutes, she said ‘Let’s go to my apartment, I hear someone coming.’
she allowed her robe to fall off completely. Now nude, she purred at him, ‘What would you say is my best feature?’ Flustered and embarrassed, he squeaked, ‘It’s got to be your ears.’
Astounded, and a little hurt she asked, ‘My ears? Look at these breasts; they are a full 38 inches and 100% natural. I work out every day and my ass is firm and solid. I have a 28 inch waist. Look at my skin – not a blemish anywhere. How can you think that the best part of my body is my ears?’
Clearing his throat, he stammered… ‘Outside, when you said you heard someone coming… that was me!!!
On Friday, A hooded robber burst into a bank and, at gunpoint, forced the tellers to load their cash into a plain brown bag.
As the robber approached the door, one brave customer grabbed the hood and pulled it off, revealing the robber’s face.
Without a moment’s hesitation, the robber shot the customer.
He then looked around the bank and noticed one of the tellers looking straight at him.
The robber instantly shot & killed her also.
Everyone in the bank, by now horrified, stared down at the floor in silence.
The robber yelled, “Well, did anyone else see my face?”
There was a long moment of dead silence in which everyone was terrified to speak.
Then, one old Australian named Bernie cautiously raised his hand and said,
“My wife got a pretty good look at you !!!!.”
One day a florist went to a barber for a haircut. After the cut, he asked about his bill, and the barber replied, ‘I cannot accept money from you, I’m doing community service this week.’ The florist was pleased and left the shop.
When the barber went to open his shop the next morning, there was a ‘thank you’ card and a dozen roses waiting for him at his door.
Later, a cop comes in for a haircut, and when he tries to pay his bill, the barber again replied, ‘I cannot accept money from you, I’m doing community service this week.’ The cop was happy and left the shop. The next morning when the barber went to open up, there was a ‘thank you ‘ card and a dozen donuts waiting for him at his door.
Then a Member of Parliament came in for a haircut, and when he went to pay his bill , the barber again replied, ‘I cannot accept money from you. I’m doing community service this week.’ The Member of Parliament was very happy and left the shop.
The next morning, when the barber went to open up, there were a dozen Members of Parliament lined up waiting for a free haircut.
And that, my friends, illustrates the fundamental difference between the citizens of our country and the politicians who run it
“….Harriet, So you admit a patch of the Middle East with a colourful history of numerous religions and cultures was given to one particular religious group by meddling Western powers as “spoils of war”….”
No. I said ‘given BACK to them’.
“…..if it is about war spoils, then the land can be retrieved by the same means in your view ? A recipe for disaster and opposed by many informed Jews themselves……”
No. Under the laws of war you are allowed to keep what you have ‘won’ if you were defending yourself. As has been said by Golda Meir ” The arabs want to slice up Israel piece by piece till we can no longer defend it. That’s balony.” That’s why the likes of Golan Heights will stay with Israel.
If you seriously think that Israel is the only ME country that needs the support of the US and her allies, then you’re wrong. Israel exports billions of dollars worth of hi tech equipment to Arab countries. Also, arab countries are also under threat from Iran. Not everyone in the ME hates Israel.
Israel has been at war for about 65 years – from the invasion the day after they were first legitimised by the UN[or what preceded it].
“….More Americans have probably died as a result of Israel than due to all the Muslim countries put together….”
More Americans have probably died as a result of England than due to all the European countries put together.
Seriously Kea, should’ve the US stayed out of WW2, because England declared war on Germany for invading Poland ?
The poll results announced on Q+A and One News was devastating for Grant Robertson. Trounced by Cunliffe across a range of measures and even given a good beating by Jones.
Of course the ABC faction/old guard will be working hard to swing in votes behind Robertson, but it is not as easy as it might have been – Jones is a helluva complicator for them. Surely various MPs/union delegates/party members will swing in behind the front runner – Cunliffe.
I suspect if they don’t and the ABC club manage to wrangle the leadership onto Robertson, the party faithful and the general voters will go feral on Labour. Suits me just fine……
Harriet, many different cultures and religions have roots in the region. They have lived together in varying degrees of harmony for thousands of years. One particular religion can not lay claim to anything. They did not “win it” they were given it. The people it was given to did not even live there.
Do you really think it is reasonable that a person born and bred there, with family ties going back centuries, should be removed from his home, so that another person, born and bred in the UK or Russia, with family ties going back centuries in Europe, can take his land over ?
The people living there were thrown out so a bunch of born and bred Europeans and Americans could take over on the basis of their religion ! No matter how you cut it that is absurd. They even looked at making a home land in other places, like Uganda. Utter religious bullshit.
The Jewish religion was gifted Israel and defended it with aid and assistance from the West (which is where the Jews came from who populated the region). They are not brave and they did not do any of it based on their own efforts alone. They were handed it on a platter and greedly demand the US be bled dry to this day to prop up their religious empire.
But of course now things have become more complicated. Much of the present population was born there. They did not create this situation. They are not Zionists and most are not especially religious. The establishment of Israel was an incredible injustice and it has not benefited Jewish people at all.
You’re missing one point. The land that was “gifted” to the Jews was sparsely populated semi desert. Those Muslims who weren’t exterminated by inter tribal warfare were a backward people who wandered around molesting their livestock.
Most were absorbed into Israel & practise religious freedom greater than possible in most Muslim run countries. They are not moaning about Israel…..that is left to the “natives” of Palestine who settled the area from what is now Jordan.
Seriously Kea, should’ve the US stayed out of WW2, because England declared war on Germany for invading Poland ?
Yes. Not only that, they picked the wrong side, as usual.
Hitlers main concern was the Soviets. The efforts of the West weakened Germany to an extent a war against the Soviets could not be won. The Soviets went on to spread death and misery all over Central Asia, Eastern Europe and around the Caspian Sea. They threatened the security of the West for decades to come. The war only ended very recently for many of those poor people. They had to suffer the further indignity of being labeled commies by the Americans, as they were given the label of those who oppressed them. A typically ignorant Yank approach to foreigners. The things done by the Russians are among the worst in modern history and dwarf the holocaust. We enabled it.
nasska, Fiordland is sparsely populated and undeveloped. Using your logic you would have no problem with the UK and America giving that chunk of NZ to the Muslims as a “homeland”. What a fucked up bit of logic. It is more the sort of thing I would expect from a god nutter. And nice how you tried to slip the “religious freedom” bullshit in there as if one thing supports the other. Did you really think you would not get pulled up on that ? Or do you think I can come and take over your house just as long as I give you “religious freedom”. ?
But just for shits and giggles I will play along: What is the required stocking rate before you consider it wrong for a foreign power to give away your land to a religious group ?
Tell you what. How about you come up with some actual scholarship before you start with the abuse, Lucia Maria.
The “abuse” that Ugly was objecting to was me saying that he must be one of those “whacky alternative history nuts”. If Ugly considers that abusive, then Ugly might consider that he is too sensitive for an environment such as KiwiBlog’s GD. I certainly wonder how he’s lasted this long.
Ugly then links to an article by a Dr Dale Tuggy on the Trinity. A bit of research on Dale turned up that he used to be an evangelical Christian, but is no longer (presumably is now an atheist) and therefore no longer believes in the Trinity. Ok, that’s fine, but by himself he’s hardly authoritative, even if he is doctor of philosophy, he’s just a doctor of philosophy with an opinion. I’ve argued with these types before and a number of them are so up themselves that that think anything they disagree with can’t be right, and they wonder why people have problems with them. The bad ones get away with it by tangling themselves and others so up in knots that the only thing you can do is back away slowly and try not to run into them anymore.
I’ll take my philosopher (Peter Kreeft) over your philosopher (Dale Tuggy) any day. From Peter Kreeft’s book on Catholic Christianity:
The datum for Christian theology is first of all Christ himself. On the one hand, he called God his Father, prayed to him, loved him, taught his teaching, and obeyed his will. On the other hand, he claimed to be one with, and equal to. the Father. And he also promised to send the Spirit. The scriptural data from which the Church derives the doctrine of the Trinity are essentially
a. that there is only one God (Deut 6:4);
b. that the Father is God (Jn 5:18);
c. that the Son is God (Jn 8:58; and
d. the the Holy Spirit is God (Mt 28:19).
The data are historical: God’s progressive revelation of himself, first as the transcendent Creator “outside” us; then as the incarnate Saviour “beside” us; and then as the indwelling Spirit “inside” us. The reason for this progression, first Father (Old Testament), and then Son (Gospels), and then Spirit (Acts of the Apostles and the Church), is found in God’s very being, which is love (1 Jn 4:18), and then in the purpose and motive for God’s self-revelation to man, which is love. For love’s aim is always greater intimacy, deeper union with the beloved; so the stages of God’s self-revelation are the stages of increasing intimacy with man (from “outside” to “beside” to “inside”).
So, that explains how Catholics understand the Trinity. I’ve put that in to show it does have it’s own logic, even if you disagree with the belief, at least it’s cohesive and understandable to some level. And it’s elevating and beautiful, which is another criteria of mine for recognising truth.
I stand by what I said originally:
Without the incarnation there would be no salvation and no “Pauline doctrine”.
The incarnation was the event in history of God becoming man.
Ugly must think that the “Pauline doctrine” created the idea of Jesus, that he didn’t actually exist. Very few scholars reject the incarnation, yet Ugly seems to. That is why, Ugly, I called you one of those “whacky alternative history nuts”. I stand by that as well, as nothing you have said since has convinced me otherwise.
All that stuff about Paul and the Ebionites indicates that you’re heavily into the New Age/Gnostic/Alternative History theories. Who knows if you actually believe them or if you’re just using them as weapons.
The religious freedom bit was essential otherwise I would have been accused of ignoring the particular brand of Godbothering the natives engaged in.
In any case the original inhabitants lost their autonomy many years before when the Ottomans took over the entire area.
….” In 1916 control of the southern portion of their Ottoman Empire was “mandated” to France and Britain under the Sykes-Picot Agreement, which divided the Arab region into zones of influence. Lebanon and Syria were assigned (mandated) to France… and “Palestine” (today’s Jordan, Israel and “West Bank”) was mandated to Great Britain. “…..
Since the land was spoils of war the Brits & the French were entitled to do what they wanted with it….eventually they chose to allow the Jews to settle the area. To deny this as fact is to rewrite history the way the TOW bludgers do in NZ today.
All that stuff about Paul and the Ebionites the Trinity indicates that you’re heavily into the New Age/Gnostic/Alternative Catholic History theories. Who knows if you actually believe them or if you’re just using them as weapons.
As I ran around Auckland’s CBD tonight my faith in humanity was restored when I saw numerous Penny Bright mayoral billboards in various states of vandalism, including devil horns, her eyes cut out, and Hitler moustaches among other acts of vandalism. Good to see the people of Auckland aren’t reserving this for John Palino billboards only, as I had previously thought.
It is one big cluster fuck and we need to separate ourselves from the Middle East and its religions [ Christianity, Judaism and Islam. ] The Romans are not the force they once were and we no longer have to be burdened with the ignorant cult they imposed on the West after a brain fart by one of the famously nutty emperors.
One of the greatest things about being an atheist is being able to see religions for what they are…..a power bases for the hierarchies that rule them. The British upper crust understood this when the first three sons were assigned to parliament, the military & the church.
That covered the seats of power of the time & not a great deal has changed.
What you said is refuted in my very first comment today, in the link to that book I gave. Do you really need me to spell it out in excruciating detail? Read more history, and up to date history, and then you’ll do a Homer, ie D’oh!
nasska, yes just as Islam is now used as a political rallying point for the disenchanted and a counter against perceived Western hegemony.
All those Abrahamic cults are about controlling people not saving souls. At least with other spiritual followings they often encourage personal growth and enlightment. But the West got stuck with the worst of a bad bunch.
Red, if you stop pulling the wing off of flys for a few moments and check out the GD on any given day, you will see it is seldom the atheists who start this. But we are happy to help our god addled friends correct their thinking and drag them kicking and screaming into the light.
One thing often avoided in our chats is the long history of Christian persecution of the Jews. The famous Catholic, Hitler, drew heavily upon his Catholic upbringing to justify his treatment of Europeans who were Jewish.
These conflicts had a negative impact on the writers of certain parts of the New Testament especially the author of the gospel of John which was compiled about this time. In several places John’ s gospel associates “the Jews” with darkness and with the devil. This laid the groundwork for centuries of Christian characterization of Jews as agents of the devil, a characterization which found its way into medieval popular religion and eventually into passion plays.
In certain countries it often led to civil and political discrimination against Jews and in some instances to physical attacks on Jews which resulted in death. While some Popes, bishops and Christian princes stepped up to protect Jews, they were clearly a minority. It was only in the mid-twentieth century that the Catholic Church and many Protestant denominations issued major statements repudiating this anti-Judaic theology and began a process of constructive Christian-Jewish interaction.
When the Nazis came on the scene in Germany they were able to draw upon the legacy of Christian anti-Judaism
The ability of the Western countries to dominate international politics came to an end at the G20 meeting. The moral authority of the West is completely gone, shattered and eroded by countless lies and shameless acts of aggression based on nothing but lies and self-interests. Nothing remains of the West’s “moral authority,” which was never anything but a cover for self-interest, murder, and genocide.
The West has been destroyed by its own governments, who have told too many self-serving lies, and by its capitalist corporations, who offshored the West’s jobs and technology to China, India, Indonesia, and Brazil, depriving the Western governments of a tax base and the support of its citizens.
I’ve said many times the US in this century is where the UK was in the last, in terminal decline like a cartoon character running off the cliff in mid-air but not yet plunging, but unlike the UK did, I don’t think the US is going to quietly fade away. The way it’s looking, it’s going to be a very sudden, very nasty implosion. And I pity the people in it when it happens.
Lucy, Ok I will draw upon your great knowledge of history. Why did you Christians persecute Jews until very very recently, stoning them to death for not converting and general shitty treatment ? Why did that change, did you forgive them for killing Christ ?
Funny how Lucy just referenced a yarn about Constantine, a raving anti Jew of the highest order. It can hardly be overstated the horrors and oppression he inflicted on the Jews. You really need to research your religious heroes a bit more Lucy. The information is widely available.
Lucy, since you like books about Constantine, here is another one for you along with a few exerts:
Constantine’s Sword: The Church and the Jews
James Carroll finishes where Daniel Goldhagen and John Cornwell left off by looking at historical Christian anti-Judaism that lead to the Jewish holocaust. He begins by contemplating the controversial Cross at Auschwitz and then examines Catholic Jewish hatred beginning with the New Testament and proceeding through the early Church, Constantine’s Holy Roman empire, the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Reformation, and finally to Hitler. These threads of “justified” Christian hatred form a rope, a connecting arch through history that produced the foundation for Nazism to exist.
Support of Hitler was not only allowed to Catholics, but was required of them.
It was at Nicaea… at the council enshrining the Christian victory, that Constantine, forbidding the observance of Easter at Passover time, declared, “It is unbecoming that on the holiest of festivals we should follow the customs of the Jews; henceforth let us have nothing in common with this odious people.”
No Catholic-born Nazi– not Goebbels, Himmler, or Bormann; not even Adolf Hitler, who died with his name still on the rolls of the Catholic Church, and for whom the Catholic primate of Germany ordered the Requiem sung after his suicide– was ever excommunicated for being a Nazi. But, as Hans Kung observed, Pius XII “did not show the slightest inhibitions after the war, in 1949, about excommunicating all Communist members throughout the world at a stroke.”
“you will see it is seldom the atheists who start this.”
That is patently incorrect. It is most frequently started by you or your dome headed pants pissing little hillbilly mate Narsekissa. Two peanut brained losers who should take your intellectually barren monotonous and obsessive crap elsewhere.
Red, you are a liar. Most days start with your bum buddy kowtow trying to stir up religious hatred against one particular semitic group. You are not mistaken you are lying and hoping no one will spend a few moments checking.
Today it started here:
“Lucia Maria (1,584) Says:
September 8th, 2013 at 9:53 am
Both Ugly and Kea would greatly benefit from reading this recently published historical book on Christianity in Rome. It might off-set both of their fantastic ideas about the past which have been made apparent in the last few weeks.”
So, that explains how Catholics understand the Trinity.
This was never the point of contention, Lucia Maria. The point of contention was that the trinity was not a part of Pauline doctrine, that it was developed later.
The incarnation was the event in history of God becoming man.
Lucia, your idea of what “God” is is not relevant here.
Ugly must think that the “Pauline doctrine” created the idea of Jesus, that he didn’t actually exist.
You reasoning is faulty, I don’t think that.
Very few scholars reject the incarnation, yet Ugly seems to. That is why, Ugly, I called you one of those “whacky alternative history nuts”.
The fact that I reject trinitarian doctrine (incarnation is part of that doctrine) does not mean that I believe an “alternative history”.
The trinity can be rejected by examining the characteristics of “God”:
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
“God” in this verse is a translation of Elohim, which is a plural Hebrew word. The singular of Elohim is Elah, which is linguistically related to “Allah” of Islam. Although Elohim is plural, the word is typically used in a singular sense, which leads to the confusing sense of the English translation of Gen 1:27.
The argument against the trinity is that Elohim has both male and female physical forms, but the trinity only has male forms – the “father” and the “son”.
All that stuff about Paul and the Ebionites indicates that you’re heavily into the New Age/Gnostic/Alternative History theories.
This is what I mean about Lucia Maria resorting to abuse when her argument fails.
What the stuff about Paul and the Ebionites shows is that the Ebionites made the right choice in rejecting Paul. This is because it was the disciples that rejected Paul who were relevant to the Biblical narrative when it ended (i.e. in the Book of Revelation), not the Christians.