Police need to be better shots

October 25th, 2013 at 10:00 am by David Farrar

The Herald reports:

officers who chased and shot dead an armed teenager broke a number of policies, but were justified in the shooting, a report into the incident concluded today.

Lachan Kelly-Tumarae, 19, died after being shot numerous times in a stand-off with officers in Hawkes Bay in March 2011.

The details are:

Mr Kelly-Tumarae had left his grandmother’s home in Flaxmere, in the early hours of the morning of Sunday, March 28, with his late-grandfather’s shotgun. He had both alcohol and cannabis in his system from the night before.

The teenager was spotted by a routine patrol crouching beside a car, and when they stopped, he approached and pointed the weapon at them.

The officers sped off and reported the incident to their communications centre.

An 18km pursuit through suburban Napier began after Mr Kelly-Tumarae drove away in his grandmother’s car and ended up outside the main entrance to the Omahu Marae Cemetery, west of Hastings, where his grandfather was buried.

The teen got out of the car with the shotgun and pointed it at an officer parked close by. A policeman in a second vehicle got out of his patrol car and aimed his Glock pistol at Mr Kelly-Tumarae, shouting “armed police”.

The 19-year-old ran towards the cemetery, then stopped and turned around, aiming his gun at the armed officer.

In that situation the Police had no option but to shoot him. If you have armed police telling you to surrender, you don’t point a gun at them. Mr Kelly-Tumarae is entirely responsible for his own death.

“Fearing that Mr Kelly-Tumarae was going to shoot him, the officer discharged a volley of shots. Mr Kelly-Tumarae remained standing, and believing he had missed, the officer fired another volley of shots,” the report says.

A total of 14 bullets were fired from the police officer’s weapon, with four wounding the teen. Another bullet appeared to have passed through his clothing, the report said.

This is the issue of concern. A 4/14 strike rate is pretty bad. The officer obviously needs more firearms training. If you don’t hit the person with your first shot or two, then they may get to shoot you.

It is sad whenever it is necessary for the Police to shoot someone, as was this case. But when they do have to shoot, you want them to be accurate.

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105 Responses to “Police need to be better shots”

  1. virtualmark (1,531 comments) says:

    DPF, you’d want to know at what distance the officer was from Kelly-Tumarae when he fired. Personally if I was facing someone who had a shotgun I’d want to be at least 30m-50m away. But at that range a handgun is going to be pretty inaccurate – to the extent that even 4 shots out of 14 is not a bad effort.

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  2. rouppe (971 comments) says:

    This is the issue of concern. A 4/14 strike rate is pretty bad. The officer obviously needs more firearms training. If you don’t hit the person with your first shot or two, then they may get to shoot you.

    I’d be more concerned about where the other bullets ended up. In some innocent person sleeping in their bed or watching TV? Glocks are powerful 9mm handguns.

    That is awful shooting

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  3. Manolo (13,837 comments) says:

    Not sad at all: NZ has one less criminal around, one less violent offender to deal with.

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  4. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    Glocks are powerful 9mm handguns.

    No they are not. They are low powered personal close range defense weapons.

    It is not a target shooting contest. The cop got him in the end.

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  5. eszett (2,417 comments) says:

    I’d be more concerned about where the other bullets ended up. In some innocent person sleeping in their bed or watching TV? Glocks are powerful 9mm handguns.

    That is awful shooting

    Behind him was a cemetary. The innocent people sleeping were long dead. Not much of a danger there.

    Pretty hard to hit something with a handgun. Especially under stress when someone is pointing a weapon at you.
    This is not the movies.

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  6. SGA (1,072 comments) says:

    virtualmark at 10:08 am

    DPF, you’d want to know at what distance the officer was from Kelly-Tumarae when he fired.

    Good point. Also, there’s a world of difference between shooting steady at benign targets in “calm” conditions, and dealing with a skinful of adrenaline while facing someone who can shoot back (in, from the sounds of things, poorly lit conditions).

    Not saying that more training wouldn’t hurt, mind – just that circumstances do count.

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  7. seanmaitland (501 comments) says:

    lol – get in the real world people – its not like the movies where every shot by the good guys hits the target, even when a couple of hundred metres away, and it raining and blowing a gale.

    If you have a split second to line up a shot from distance, when its dark, its pretty obvious your accuracy is going to be very poor.

    @rouppe “I’d be more concerned about where the other bullets ended up. In some innocent person sleeping in their bed or watching TV? Glocks are powerful 9mm handguns.”

    You’d be concerned at the bullets hitting all the other people in the cemetary in the middle of the night? Do you realise that they are already dead?

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  8. David Garrett (7,318 comments) says:

    Good post DPF…What an awful tragedy…Who can be happy when an 18 year old loses his life in any circumstances, even these? Certainly not me.

    However, all of that said…DPF is pretty well right – you point a gun at police, and you are very likely to get shot.

    Good point about the range…I am no expert, but I understand that only in the movies are “double taps” to the chest likely at more than about 25 metres…a shotgun probably wouldnt kill you at that range, but I wouldnt want to be hit with a blast from one at that range either. Very difficult situation for the cop(s). There is no mention of the IPCA here…was this an internal enquiry or one of theirs? Former Judge Carruthers was an excellent choice for head of the IPCA in my view.

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  9. dime (9,980 comments) says:

    Why did the police officer even have a gun?

    What he should have done is walk towards him with his arms extended in a “im going to hug you motion”.

    Maybe he could have just kept saying “its not your fault”. then after a tearful embrace they get the young fella home and then the nasty policeman gets grilled as to how this happened.

    you see, its not the 18 yr old fault. its societies. the rich arent paying enough tax.

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  10. Luke H (73 comments) says:

    For the middle of the night in a dark cemetery, using a handgun in a highly charged situation, 4/14 shots isn’t bad.

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  11. RF (1,404 comments) says:

    NZ Police firearms training is restricted because of budget restraints plus not all officers are now authorized to tool up.

    Overseas Police agencies rate firearms training very high and your sidearm is “your friend” that you take everywhere whereas here its locked away and you hope like hell you never need it.

    The officer that let rip with 14 shots would most probably only had a few days on the range in 12 months. I could be wrong but…….

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  12. martinh (1,257 comments) says:

    I agree Luke, pistols a really hard to be accurate with at anything other than pointblank. I would of let off 14 shots myself as one scatter shot from a shotgun and you a possibly dead.

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  13. Mobile Michael (452 comments) says:

    An old school friend is an AOS officer. He says the ones who have shot someone are never the same, they hate having to have done it even though they know the other choice was to let someone else be shot.

    It’s bad all round, alright.

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  14. peterwn (3,276 comments) says:

    dime – Police officers have good access to firearms. Many police cars have a gun safe containing a Glock – including all rural cars. And even more police cars will be similarly equipped.

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  15. greenjacket (466 comments) says:

    4/14 shots is actually very good shooting DPF.
    It wasn’t a target range – the target was moving, the police officer was highly stressed.
    In WW2 soldiers needed to fire off almost the weight of the target in ammuniiton in order to kill it. In the real world stress (i.e. someone trying to kill) makes shooting pretty wild. For that officer to get 4/14 suggests he was well trained.

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  16. RRM (9,933 comments) says:

    Well I once got a hit efficiency of 97% playing killzone so I second DPF’s call that the cop is a lousy shot :-P

    You just have to go for the head shot as often as possible. If there are two close together you can take them both out with a grenade.

    Obviously real life is just as easy….

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  17. Kleva Kiwi (289 comments) says:

    Glocks are regarded as low powered defensive side arms.
    Most pistols are rubbish at accuracy past 20m or so. 4/14 shots is a great effort at a distance over this in a hostile environment.

    Its not like the situation is a controlled gun range at 10m

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  18. Jack5 (5,137 comments) says:

    Popular views on shooting accuracy are distorted by years of film and TV dramas.

    Shooting a pistol accurately is difficult, and needs quite intense training, and regular practice. Competitive pistol shooters can train for hours a day. Systems have been developed of close-quarter “point” shooting, such as that by Rex Applegate, but these still need training and practice. There’s only so much paid police time for this (and policemen’s interest, enthusiasm and conscientiousness).

    We shouldn’t expect Olympic-standard shooting from pistol-equipped policemen.

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  19. Elaycee (4,393 comments) says:

    DPF:

    This is the issue of concern. A 4/14 strike rate is pretty bad.

    Not necessarily – a key factor here (not mentioned by the ‘journalist’ reporting the findings of the IPCA Report) was the fact that the Police Officer was advancing on the offender, whilst firing.

    Para 190 of the IPCA Report states (in part):

    While I was firing on him on both instances I was advancing because I want to dominate, I didn’t want him to get the upper hand, I wanted to go home that night…”

    So the Police officer was advancing / shooting on the move at an offender who was armed with a shotgun and pointing it at the Police officer armed with the Glock. Immediately before, the same offender was seen to point his shotgun point blank (down) into the passengers area of a second Police car, as if to fire at the two Police occupants. All happening around 1.30 in the morning. And any AOS assistance was 30 minutes away. Not easy.

    Besides, a Glock (like any other pistol) is not accurate over distance.

    The entire incident confirms the obvious – if you point a weapon at Police, you’re simply rolling the dice.

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  20. Colville (2,272 comments) says:

    The Glock 17s are 9mm x 19mm parabellum, only 10 inches drop at 100 yards. I assume they use a peppy load and antipersonal projectiles.

    I think that the large volume of fire is as much about supression and intimidation as it is about putting the crim on the floor.

    From memory there is a competitive pistol shooter as a comenter here on KB, hopefully he will coment with some actuall knowledge.

    Who here has actually fired a pistol?

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  21. GPT1 (2,122 comments) says:

    There is a legitimate concern about police firearms training in general. I understand most of it is class room based due to the cost of ammunition (why they don’t use reloads for training is beyond me).

    Your point about 4/14 however is unfair.

    I am not sure how much pistol shooting you have done but even in non pressure situations they are not an accurate weapon – even at relatively close range.

    This was hardly a non pressure situation and it was a mobile tactical environment – all factors that count against accuracy.

    Accuracy could undoubtedly improve with constant training but then you would not have any police on the street. Real life is not the movies – taking down bad guys on the run with a handgun just does not happen.

    I have done a bit of pistol shooting, nowhere near enough, and I would expect to hit a head sized target, both myself and the target still, at 30 yards maybe 4 out of 5 times. That’s without being in fear for my life or having to make a decision whether I need to kill someone. The other day I was at the range for the first time in, ahem, a couple of years and shot the bloody hostage trying for a quick shot at the swinging target behind the “hostage” target.

    The shooting is plainly justified – a cold comfort to all concerned I imagine – but your criticism of accuracy appears to be ill informed.

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  22. Colville (2,272 comments) says:

    and people just remember it is not the pistol that is inaccurate it is the piece of meat that is holding it that is the problem.

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  23. Sonny Blount (1,783 comments) says:

    4/14 is brilliant shooting.

    You make the same ignorant mistake repeated by churnalists for decades DPF when acting outraged about shots fired in gunfights.

    If it’s with pistols in a real life fire fight you unload everything you’ve got and hits are a bonus.

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  24. Archer (210 comments) says:

    Like the clear majority of other commentators here are saying, 4/14 (29%) is pretty good. You wouldn’t expect any higher. To suggest otherwise, DPF, makes me disappointed in your post. A quick google and the first two hits show the LAPD have a hit percentage of between 27 and 29%, the NYPD 34%. When you consider the reported circumstances in this case of:

    a. an armed offender

    b. the offender has a higher powered weapon than the officer

    c. both the offender and the officer were moving, and

    d. the incident occurred in darkness

    then the overall situation was on the difficult end of the spectrum and the officer’s hit percentage was fantastic. Good on him.

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  25. Daigotsu (459 comments) says:

    Tell me DPF what’s your firearms education that gives you the qualifications to lecture the police on what is and isn’t acceptable?

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  26. davidp (3,581 comments) says:

    Jack5>Popular views on shooting accuracy are distorted by years of film and TV dramas.

    What films teach is that no matter how many times you shoot someone, the moment that you turn your back they will miraculously sit up and try to have another go at you. At which point you’ll turn just in the nick of time and finish them off with a head shot.

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  27. SGA (1,072 comments) says:

    davidp at 11:40 am

    What films teach is that no matter how many times you shoot someone, the moment that you turn your back they will miraculously sit up and try to have another go at you.

    Unless the shooter was Tuco, Angel Eyes, or Blondie – then one shot was usually enough.

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  28. nickb (3,687 comments) says:

    I have, many times, and I have to say that from my experience it seems highly ignorant to criticise someone who makes 4/14 shots when they are fearing for their life, being shot at, and aiming at a moving target. Especially at anything other than short distances.

    With a rifle, that would be terrible, but a handgun, no. They are far less accurate.

    Which I suppose brings us to the real issue, which is why this officer didn’t have some sort of rifle? Why do cops get sent into dangerous armed offender situations with only a pistol or shotgun (which is somewhat useless apart from very short range)? (obviously in situations where the armed offenders squad can’t be mobilized in time).

    Sounds like some of Kiwiblog’s resident 007’s should try out for Police College.

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  29. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    A sad waste of a young life, however when you pick up a weapon you have to realise you are exposing yourself to having the same used against you.

    I agree the police should be able to shoot with accuracy, however, until we have robots doing the job, they too are faced with the restrictions of human emotions – which can seriously affect accuracy. For this reason, I do not believe all police should be armed, but should have access to weapons.

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  30. OTGO (557 comments) says:

    OK I’ll comment because I have fired 30 rounds from a .357 Magnum at a stationery target on a range in Vegas. When the range master told me it had a bit of a kick nothing prepared me for how much. Watching Dirty Harry shoot it in the movies and firing it in real life is not comparable in any way. I can only imagine how difficult it would be hitting someone aggressively advancing towards you trying to do you harm.
    Fired other firearms that afternoon. My favourite was a WW2 German sub machine called an MP40 I think. Compared to the AK47 it was a beautiful weapon.

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  31. Fentex (986 comments) says:

    Statistically speaking 4 from 14 isn’t all bad. In a large study of hand gun shootings in the U.S, IIRC a long term view of shootings involving NYPD officers, the typical distance shots were fired at were about 8 meters and the accuracy was about 10% for offenders and 20% for police officers. That is apparently the difference between the untrained and non-specialty trained.

    Handguns are inherently inaccurate, they aren’t magic – they’re bulky, awkward, noisy, bucking things generally used by people already shaking from adrenaline rush.

    Which is why, like any firearm, they ought only be deployed when absolutely necessary and when the consequence of not using them is likely worse (such as imminent danger to someone).

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  32. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    Pity the poor shots in police couldn’t do some target practice on one S. Smith. I could personally provide the ammo and weapons.

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  33. Sponge (184 comments) says:

    I have fired blocks and a .357 Magnum (which was great fun). Even at a range they are bloody hard to be accurate with so agree that having a crack at the cops for poor shooting is a bit tough.

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  34. Ashley Schaeffer (488 comments) says:

    But I was watching The Walking Dead the other night and they were one-shotting zeds to the head with pistols while trying to avoid being eaten. Clearly, our cops just need a better incentive.

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  35. Sponge (184 comments) says:

    Sorry “glocks” not “blocks”

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  36. Christopher Thomson (376 comments) says:

    I’ve had 20 years army and 16 years police.

    That was bloody good shooting. Any hit with a pistol is an excellent result.

    And the rounds are not special, just standard across the counter stuff.

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  37. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Daigotsu (385) Says:
    October 25th, 2013 at 11:40 am

    The Police are Civil Servants, paid from our taxes, that gives any of us the right to criticise them about anything we wish to. Just because they wear a uniform and do a hard job does not make immune from criticism or responsibility – they are not ‘enlisted’, they sign up willingly to do the job. All respect to them, they do a hard job, but lets not make them into ‘Gods’, they are as accountable as any other person paid by public money (or at least should be).

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  38. Rufus (667 comments) says:

    Sure, DPF, whatever. Stick to polling.

    4/14 from a shitty Glock, walking, at night, with adrenaline coursing through your veins is nothing to complain about.

    I used to shoot all sorts of handguns at a local range (for fun) while living in the US – it’s harder than it looks – and that’s in comfortable surroundings with an inanimate target.

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  39. David Garrett (7,318 comments) says:

    What a great forum this place is…on just about any topic someone…usually several someones…comes along and educates us all just that bit more… in many cases considerably more….

    I myself have gone from thinking 4/14 was pretty dismal to pretty damn good…all based on statements from people who have “been there, done that”…which I never have….

    I never go to the Standard unless I really really have to…but has anyone been over there today? I’ll bet the line is “poor bewildered tamariki trying to connect with dead grandad…shot by the uncaring honkey police”….

    Anyone care to put on a shit suit and venture over there to see if I am right?

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  40. jackinabox (776 comments) says:

    The cops have cameras on their Tasers so why not on their Glocks? When they claim that so and so made an aggressive move towards officers while armed with a shot gun, hammer, golf club or clenched fists so we were forced to fill them full of copper and lead, and there are no independent witnesses, why should we take them at their word? Experience has taught me that the NZ Police are habitual liars so without independent corroboration I simply refuse to believe a word they say.

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  41. jackinabox (776 comments) says:

    Christopher Thomson (372) Says:
    October 25th, 2013 at 1:09 pm
    I’ve had 20 years army and 16 years police.

    “That was bloody good shooting. Any hit with a pistol is an excellent result.

    And the rounds are not special, just standard across the counter stuff.”

    When I was a young shaver I had a 9mm Luger and hunted all manner of game with it. Rabbits, deer, pigs, goats etc. were all bowled over with ease. Crappy old WW2 solid bullets would leave a deer’s head a rattly mush and I could hit half a brick at 30 yards every time. You people who denounce pistols as inaccurate and gutless know bugger all.

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  42. Jack5 (5,137 comments) says:

    jackinabox (5.05). So you were felling moving deer with head shots from your World War II Luger.

    You should have been in the Olympic team.

    A static brick at 30 yards is manageable, though. But where did you get all the ammunition?

    I don’t think a Luger would match a current pistol in accuracy and hitting power. Compare it with, for example, a Desert Eagle.

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  43. kowtow (8,524 comments) says:

    Rabbits,deer,pigs,goats etc don’t have shotguns with them and the ability to therewith return fire and kill you.

    Anyone who can “hit half a brick at 30 yards every time” is either a truly excellent shot or is reliving a youth that’s more imagined than real.

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  44. jackinabox (776 comments) says:

    Jack5 (3,511) Says:
    October 25th, 2013 at 5:15 pm
    jackinabox (5.05). So you were felling moving deer with head shots from your World War II Luger.

    Head shots for static game and chest shots for big stuff running side on. In fact I found it easier to shoot game on the run with my Luger than with my 243 scoped rifle.

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  45. Pauleastbay (5,035 comments) says:

    jackinabox

    do bugger off . Its been a good thread until you came along, troll no more with your bentcops.org,dick

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  46. jackinabox (776 comments) says:

    Just stating the facts Paul old chum.

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  47. David Garrett (7,318 comments) says:

    begger me, this guy’s been on the turps early PEB!!

    “…Easier to shoot game on the run with my Luger than a 243 scoped rifle”…

    I once trained this pig to fly…no really…mind you, he could do the 100 yard takeoff run in about 12 seconds, so it was no real surprise…

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  48. jackinabox (776 comments) says:

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  49. Sponge (184 comments) says:

    jackinabox (67) Says:
    October 25th, 2013 at 5:46 pm
    Just stating the facts Paul old chum.

    Bollocks.

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  50. Feral Kiwi (7 comments) says:

    Real life is NOT like TV and the movies. I shoot rifles at least once a week (up tp 2 or 3 times a week during competition season) and typically 40-50 rounds per session. After 3 years of such practice in perfect conditions – no stress, stationary targets that are well lit and nobody shooting back at me – I’m finally reliable enough to claim over 90%accuracy.

    Using a pistol, with the limited training and practice that police typically get, the officer who managed 4 out of 14, in the dark, against an armed opponent, did spectacularly well. He deserves our thanks, not criticism.

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  51. jackinabox (776 comments) says:

    It’s so easy to say “bollocks” or “troll” but a compelling argument seems to be beyond some people.

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  52. Nostradamus (3,344 comments) says:

    jackinabox:

    I don’t know you from a bar of soap, but really, why should anyone respond to your unproven claims with a compelling argument?

    Your unproven claims:

    When I was a young shaver I had a 9mm Luger and hunted all manner of game with it. Rabbits, deer, pigs, goats etc. were all bowled over with ease. Crappy old WW2 solid bullets would leave a deer’s head a rattly mush and I could hit half a brick at 30 yards every time.

    Now, why should anyone believe these unproven claims, considering that earlier on this thread you wrote:

    Experience has taught me that the NZ Police are habitual liars so without independent corroboration I simply refuse to believe a word they say.

    So why isn’t it open to others on this thread to say:

    – You’re a troll.
    – Experience has taught us that trolls are habitual liars.
    – Without independent corroboration of your claim, we simply refuse to believe a word you say.

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  53. jackinabox (776 comments) says:

    Experience has taught me that the NZ Police are habitual liars so without independent corroboration I simply refuse to believe a word they say.
    – Without independent corroboration of your claim, we simply refuse to believe a word you say.

    Ask any defence lawyer, I’m sure they’ll corroborate my claim that most cops are habitual liars.

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  54. Jack5 (5,137 comments) says:

    jackinabox …. you were lying about your marksmanship.

    Piss off, this thread is about the challenge for policemen shooting pistols at night against someone armed with a shotgun.

    The police that night had a very tough job, and carried out their duty courageously.

    If we wanted to make their jobs comfortable, we’d give them each the submachine-gun of the day – a Heckler and Koch MP5 – but there would be a lot more misses for folk to complain about.

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  55. jackinabox (776 comments) says:

    “we’d give them each the submachine-gun of the day – a Heckler & Koch MP5 –”

    And a video camera on their weapons or persons to prove that they were acting as claimed.

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  56. Sponge (184 comments) says:

    jackinabox

    If you are having run ins with the police and are then calling THEM liars I know who I would trust 1st after the nonsense you have posted on here.

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  57. David Garrett (7,318 comments) says:

    To broaden the topic a little, what do the contributors think it is that drives the species trollus internetus? Are their lives so empty – is their knowledge of the world at large so miniscule – that ANY attention is better than none? do they get some grim satisfaction out of people arguing their clearly fatuous claims?

    The late unlamented Ure seemed to thrive on it..until one day he just disappeared…

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  58. jackinabox (776 comments) says:

    What nonsense Sponge? Let’s face it Sponge, you’d believe the cops rather than your own mother.

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  59. Jack5 (5,137 comments) says:

    DG: I wonder what happened to Ure?

    Perhaps he just ran out of full stops. Remember how he peppered his posts with them?

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  60. jackinabox (776 comments) says:

    “The late unlamented Ure seemed to thrive on it..until one day he just disappeared…”

    And if you disparage me loud enough you might get me banned too. Have you emailed DF yet? “Whaa, someone is telling fibs about my precious buddies in the force, ban him ban him. Better still disappear him!

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  61. Nostradamus (3,344 comments) says:

    David Garrett:

    Here’s an analysis of trolls from a psychological science perspective. Nothing earth-shattering in there – “Suler’s basic idea was that by masking their identities, abusers not only avoid accountability for their behaviour but also dissociate their online selves from their real-world selves“.

    By the way, David, I’ve noticed you’ve been taking a close interest in UglyTruth’s “contributions” (in the broadest sense of the word) to Kiwiblog. Did you see my comment in response to yours yesterday?

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  62. Sponge (184 comments) says:

    jackinabox (72) Says:
    October 25th, 2013 at 6:47 pm
    What nonsense Sponge? Let’s face it Sponge, you’d believe the cops rather than your own mother.

    No. But I would believe them over you every time based on what you have posted here.

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  63. Jack5 (5,137 comments) says:

    Suddenly jerk in a box’s posts have become invisible. Hooray.

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  64. David Garrett (7,318 comments) says:

    Jack: apparently he has been sighted on other blogs…even using the same name…

    Were you around when the clown admitted to having obtained bus drivers licences in TWO names? After gving me endless shit about my doings 30 years ago?

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  65. dime (9,980 comments) says:

    “The late unlamented Ure seemed to thrive on it..until one day he just disappeared…”

    Samuel Smith is his new name. He doesnt to the …. thing…. eh?

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  66. David Garrett (7,318 comments) says:

    Nosty: yes, I did see that…that guy was almost unbelievable wasn’t he? Almost literally arguing that black was white….God I had better shut up….might set him off again…

    dime: No, I dont think so … even SS’s posts are too coherent for the “coned out” Mr Ure…

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  67. dime (9,980 comments) says:

    DG – SS mentioned today how hes a “stay at home dad”. Its the same dude.

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  68. Jack5 (5,137 comments) says:

    DG: do you mean Ure admitted to having bus drivers’ licences in two names?

    If so, no, but I know Ure posted on Kiwiblog on 14 February 2005:

    my name is phillip ure; i am an ex junkie (15 yrs clean of junk; still use pot), ex con (armed robbery of chemist shop whilst going through smack withdrawels), vegan,dpb supported sole dad(thanks), environmental/animal rights activist/supporter.

    He did his time, and I got trashed on Kiwiblog for praising him for looking after his son. His posts were disruptive, however, and a lot of us eventually used an add-on to Firefox that stripped out his comments.

    Ure was quite good humoured when I mentioned the robbery asking if, given the fullstops he splattered over the General Debate thread like pigeon shit on a statue, did he put a lot of bullet holes in the ceiling of the pharmacy? As I recall it, Ure said had a knife or some such rather than a gun.

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  69. David Garrett (7,318 comments) says:

    Jack: It was really quite funny…having gone on about my 30 year old identity theft at tedious length, he one day just casually mentioned that he had got a bus drivers licence in another name using someone elses Birth Certificate….He seemed quite bemused at the reaction…but then he was “bemused” much of the time…

    Dime: Probably quite a few “stay at home dads” on here…in fact I am one, in the sense I work from home these days, and often have my kids with me…

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  70. dime (9,980 comments) says:

    DG – very similar views imho. time will tell…. eh?

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  71. Azeraph (605 comments) says:

    Yeah, that was one sad event. The kid took them to where he wanted them.

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  72. David Garrett (7,318 comments) says:

    Oh, I am not staying this new one isnt a welfare bludger with a sense of entitlement! I just dont think it’s Ure… SS seems to have some level of self control, and ability to curb himself…Ure had none…

    Azeraph:..Say again??

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  73. Azeraph (605 comments) says:

    David Garrett (4,370) Says:
    October 25th, 2013 at 7:25 pm

    The Police acted as they thought was the proper action at the time of the incident and it was, there can be no fault passed onto them.

    I’ve been raised up around maori’s and the country kids are different. 19, nowhere to go, off his tree and too far into it to see or feel there was a way out. How many here can say they have had a gun in their face? It’s not nice but they usually don’t shoot as it is a threatening action rather than an actual precursor to action.

    This one gives me the feeling he was pointing to something, I have been in situations where 90% of them are threatening actions rather the other.

    The cops did what they had to.

    That kid took them to where he wanted to be.

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  74. Johnboy (16,651 comments) says:

    Police should carry 12G streetsweepers as the weapon of first resort and only use the 9mm as a backup. Less time on the range and more fear in the shit they have to face.

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  75. David Garrett (7,318 comments) says:

    Azeraph: Yes, sorry…I realised after I sent my message that you were returning to the the actual topic of the thread….

    As I said in my first post on it much earlier, a bloody tragedy for everyone…

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  76. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    Jack box may be telling the truth regarding his hunting experience. Many old hunters have similar yarns.

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  77. David Garrett (7,318 comments) says:

    Kea: You mean from the days when they took a flask of whiskey in the pack along with the ammo and the ingredients for damper?

    I saw a doco the other day on the early days of air combat in WW I….a guy using a pistol firing at a PLANE flying the same course and speed almost never hit it!! (They recreated the conditions using replica aircraft) A plan is a helluva lot bigger than a deer…and to tall intents and purposes a stationary target if they are both flying the same course and speed…

    the man is full of shit…

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  78. Johnboy (16,651 comments) says:

    “Many old hunters have similar yarns.”

    Have I never told you about the time at Stanfields Whare during the roar, when I was using the chainsaw to sort some wood for the fire and a fucking stag tried to get in the door and shag me Kea?

    If it wasn’t for the 9mm I always carried at my hip in those days I’d be the Great Grandfather of a herd of Sika by now! :)

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  79. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    Dave, in the days of high deer numbers after the war they improvised. A lot. What is left out of the story is the numbers lost when it did not work

    I have been around guns my whole life. I believe him

    Maybe your objecting to his other comments.

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  80. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    usually reds roar at chain saws

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  81. Johnboy (16,651 comments) says:

    Sika’s are more cunning Kea, they just shut up, circle round till they wind you and then try to fuck you! :)

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  82. Colville (2,272 comments) says:

    and people just remember it is not the pistol that is inaccurate it is the piece of meat that is holding it that is the problem.
    Vote: 1 7

    Shit there there are a lot of opinionated people here that have never pulled a trigger.. 7 down ticks?

    ISSF 50 meters shooters in free pistol can shoot 57/60 into the ten ring that is under 11 mm diameter.
    Pistols are inaccurate my arse. Its the meat sack behind the trigger that makes the difference.

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  83. Colville (2,272 comments) says:

    Sika are cunning stunts alright. But that is why we have German Shorthaired Pointers :-)

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  84. jackinabox (776 comments) says:

    Kea (8,489) Says:
    October 25th, 2013 at 8:17 pm
    Jack box may be telling the truth regarding his hunting experience. Many old hunters have similar yarns.

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  85. Johnboy (16,651 comments) says:

    Course if the free pistol shooters had just run a hundred odd yards, dodging the odd bullet and the target was letting rip back at them with some lead they would still get 57/60 in the bullseye Colville?……Wanker….. ? :)

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  86. Colville (2,272 comments) says:

    Johnboy you make my point for me.
    Pistols are accurate but if a doughnut munching lardarse who has never cared enough to practice shooting is pulling the trigger then he may be able to hit a barn while standing inside it.

    I have watched AOS practice, they do not miss or train to shoot people in the leg. Center mass every time.

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  87. Johnboy (16,651 comments) says:

    Hell Jack. That was a 10mm Glock not the 9mm toy our Police use.

    The shot in the Whitetail was well back from the killing area I would aim for. How long did it take to die?

    The video of the rat shooting was split so you couldn’t tell if the pair of hero’s hit anything at all or how far away the target was from them.

    A fail! :)

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  88. Jack5 (5,137 comments) says:

    Colville (9.05 post) misleads with his comparison of the police action with the 50m ISSF pistol competition.

    First of course, there is a world of difference between shooting in daylight at a stationary target, with a referee keeping distractions to a minimum, and facing an armed adversary in a cemetery at night.

    Then consider the details of the ISSF 50m pistol competition rules, in which competitors use special, one-shot handguns, typically with handgrips tailored for the competitor’s hand:

    In the 50m pistol, competitors get 15 minutes of sighting time, during which they can fire an unlimited number of shots. Then they have 60 shots to fire over 90 minutes, or 105 minutes if the targets are not electronic. That is, therefore, 15 minutes of sighting shots, and one and a half minutes for each of the next 60 shots.

    Compare this with the fleeting time the police have in an encounter with an armed offender.

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  89. Colville (2,272 comments) says:

    Jack5 exactly wrong.

    Read this thread there are dozens of comments saying that pistols are not accurate. Its total bullshit.. Pistols hit what they get pointed at.. Point them at the sky/ground/your foot and that is what they will hit.

    The ISSF score just illustrates what a pistol can do when used by a skilled person. Put the pistol in a vice and it will do better again.
    Put it in the hands of an untrained or poorly trained hack and it wont hit shit.

    Only a shit trademan blames his tools. :-)

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  90. Jack5 (5,137 comments) says:

    Colville:

    I don’t hear the police blaming their tools.

    I hear police haters moving from point to new point each time they are shot down.

    You used ISSF 50m shooting to criticise the police, then when that is shown to be a rubbish argument you drop to platitudes about people blaming their tools.

    Armed baddies don’t stand still to give police 90sec per shot.

    You have no argument except the police are not Olympic shooters. Nor should they be. If they all spent three hours a day training on the range, with another hour at least to get to and from it, the criminal scum would be running wild.

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  91. jackinabox (776 comments) says:

    How many “perps” have the police shot while they themselves were being shot at? I cant think of any. Claw hammers and golf clubs don’t count.

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  92. Johnboy (16,651 comments) says:

    The pistol won’t anything a 12G wont do in the hands of an equally trained Policeman Colville.

    I have always believed that our Cops are poorly directed and asked to do tasks that they are not trained properly for.
    And when the shit hits the fan they are pilloried by the arseholes they are commanded by.

    Cop’s on the street should routinely be armed with 12G, pistol for close range and backed up with rifle when required.

    The scum that front up to them should bear the burden of responsibility for their actions not the Cop’s who deal with them.

    The ever increasing shitbag’s that seem to populate this sad little pair of Island’s would melt away in a moment if that ever happened!

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  93. Colville (2,272 comments) says:

    Jack5

    Please show me where I have said one word against the Police.
    All I have commented on is people on here wrongly saying that the bit of metal in the Cops hands is not capable of doing the job.

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  94. Colville (2,272 comments) says:

    jackinabox.

    Simple rules for winnning a fight.
    Hit first, hit hard and dont stop.

    Why would you wait to be shot at before shooting at the criminal scum?

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  95. Jack5 (5,137 comments) says:

    Colville at 9.43 issues a challenge to find a word he has blogged against the police:

    Colville of police at 9.16:

    …doughnut munching lardarse…

    Colville at 9.25, obviously talking about the police who are the subject of the thread:

    …Only a shit tradesman blames his tools…

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  96. Colville (2,272 comments) says:

    Jack5

    Interesting that you think Police are doughnut munching lardarses. I never said such a thing.

    and as for the shit tradesmen comment…it relates to the pencil necked desk jockeys on here that comment without knowledge of firearms. I am both a tradesman and a gun nut and I dont not blame my tools in either event.

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  97. Jack5 (5,137 comments) says:

    Colville (10.10) you used the phrase in your 9.16 post. The thread is about police using firearms. Who else could you have been referring to when you said “doughnut munching lard arse”?

    For a professed gun nut, you seem muddled about the difference between Olympic 50m pistol shooting at 90sec a shot with single shot, specialised pistols, and police firing with Glock pistols at a shotgun carrier at night in a cemetery.

    You should take a good look about you if you really are a competitor in organised sports pistol shooting. Many of the best shots are what you call “lard arses”. Many have jobs which you would dismiss as being for “pencil necked desk jockeys”. A lot probably eat doughnuts: they aren’t necessarily noted for being also marathon runners or weight lifters.

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  98. Colville (2,272 comments) says:

    Jack5

    Do you have a brain injury?

    I own/use and used to compete with guns. No where did I say i shot pistol competitivley.
    Pistol shooters I do know tend to be compact fit guys, def not lard arses. You simply cannot fire 60 rounds of high power handgun with repeatability if you are unfit.

    My whole single complaint on this thread that you seem to be willingly blind to is that the piece of stamped iron mongery that was in the Cops hand is the piece of the puzzel that is the least inaccurate.

    Care to fault me on that claim?

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  99. Jack5 (5,137 comments) says:

    Colville (10.58): you’re getting a bit incoherent:

    You simply cannot fire 60 rounds of high power handgun with repeatability if you are unfit.

    What the hell does that statement mean?

    I think you are saying you need to be fit to be a top competitor. That’s close to the truth, but guys in their 70s can still be top shots, and probably older, and there are many overweight top-class pistol shooters.

    The fact that you say you don’t think competitive pistol shooters are “lard arses” confirms you must have been referring above to police.

    AND

    …the piece of stamped iron mongery that was in the Cops hand is the piece of the puzzel that is the least inaccurate ..

    I think you are saying (incoherently): don’t blame pistols. No-one here has blamed pistols, Colville. You have been tilting a windmills.

    People have been pointing out that pistols are harder to master than rifles or shotguns, and for some reason this has sent you ranting.

    I hope it’s just the Friday booze talking, and in the morning you are again a good, solid bloke, safe to have a firearms licence.

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  100. Left Right and Centre (2,986 comments) says:

    I think a lot of good people here are missing the most important aspect –

    The cunt was shot dead. Booyah. That’s the kind of justice system I like.

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  101. jackinabox (776 comments) says:

    jackinabox (74) Says:
    October 25th, 2013 at 9:36 pm
    How many “perps” have the police shot while they themselves were being shot at? I cant think of any. Claw hammers and golf clubs don’t count.
    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 5

    He, he, the ‘New Zealand has one of the best police forces in the world’ brigade vote down my post but can’t or won’t answer my question.

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  102. Longknives (4,764 comments) says:

    jackinabox- I think it’s more people just ignoring you because to be honest you are a bit of a dick.
    Do you really need a list of criminal scum killed in shootouts with Police? You won’t believe it anyway- they will all be ‘innocent victims’ in your twisted world..

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  103. Jack5 (5,137 comments) says:

    jackinabox – vile, police hating troll. Fuck off.

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  104. jackinabox (776 comments) says:

    Now now boys, keep it seemly; you cop lovers reckon that plod is acting in self defence when they “double tap” their alleged “scumbag” victims but none of you are able to prove your claims. Resorting to troll like abuse is a clear sign of an inability to argue a coherent case. Now if the heat videoed their so-called self-defence killings they would have indelible proof that they aren’t acting as a death squad when they gun down would-be golf pros and hammer hands.

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  105. jackinabox (776 comments) says:

    Here’s a good one for the sceptics among you, that mystery object that the cops can’t find near Wanaka was a fist sized ice projectile fired from a ute mounted spud gun.

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