More kids to visit Waitangi

November 30th, 2013 at 7:27 am by Jadis

A new initiative has been set up between the National Trust and Westpac bank to encourage more children to visit Waitangi leading up to the 175th anniversary of the Treaty signing.

Figures from the Waitangi National Trust show that of the 100,000 people who visit the Treaty grounds each year nearly half (45,000) are tourists, and nearly half of the 55,000 domestic visitors are from Auckland.

But only 3,000 schoolchildren – or just over 2.5 per cent of New Zealand’s 762,400 primary and secondary school students – make the trek north each year to the historic grounds.

This seems like a low number for a location that has great significance to New Zealand’s history however it isn’t the most accessible part of the country.  It would probably make some sense for the initiative called ‘Our Nation’s children’ to perhaps target Auckland schools. For once I agree with the Principals’ Federation that it would be more difficult to get children from other parts of the country there:

“Look at the cost of a child in Gore catching a flight to Kerikeri; it was $800 for a return flight on Air New Zealand, it’s an awful lot of money.”

“That doesn’t allow for food and accommodation … how sustainable is that over time ?”

I remember visiting the Treaty grounds as a kid.  My parents had a general belief to see all parts of New Zealand on our summer school holidays.  We would scrapbook and write stories about what we had seen and learned each day.  That of course was driven by my parents.

So many New Zealanders have a view of Waitangi as being a divisive and even scary place based on what they’ve seen from protests at Waitangi from the past.  That can be a barrier to visiting.

It would be great to see Waitangi visited as often as is visited in the US.  For interests sake I thought I’d have a look at the websites of the two locations.  The site for Independence Hall (the location of where the was signed) is run by the US National Parks Service. It is clearly a very busy park and there’s a tonne to do on site and online.  I then had a look at the Waitangi National Trust site that runs the visitor programme at Waitangi.  I was pleasantly surprised at the level of education available online especially for teachers and children.  The pages related to the new initiative ‘Our Nation’s Children’ are interesting and the schools’ competition certainly reduces the costs for some children to get to the grounds.

One interesting difference is that access to Waitangi is $25 for overseas visitors while Independence Hall is free to all (though extras such as tours are charged). A guided tour at Waitangi is $10 for all adults.  At both sites children under 17 are free.

 

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80 Responses to “More kids to visit Waitangi”

  1. Dennis Horne (2,403 comments) says:

    Brainwashing. If children want to see their heritage and what makes this society tick, visit Europe.

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  2. duggledog (1,555 comments) says:

    They only want every schoolkid in NZ to go to Waitangi, so that the white guilt can be cemented in place for all time, opening the way for more settlements and claims for ever.

    Transparently obvious. I’ll bet they’ll be looking to shame sponsors into paying for Bluff kids to come up, if declined this will be Racist.

    It’s also being proposed because they know the Treaty has less and less significance to NZers – especially new immigrants – as they see the hatred coming from Maori towards the establishment every year from Waitangi itself, and in many other areas in society.

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  3. big bruv (13,886 comments) says:

    I can think of no reason at all why I would want to visit such a place. It has no meaning to me as a Kiwi, it has nothing at all to do with my heritage.

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  4. Simon (721 comments) says:

    State propaganda. Ideas forced into children so they become unthinking & obedient.

    Instead of visiting Waitangi consider why the treaty could be irrelevant and how the treaty in modern times been manipulated.

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  5. duggledog (1,555 comments) says:

    BB – I visited and I did find it interesting. There’s no doubt some pretty heady shit went down there, but I’m into places and stories like that because I like history. And I’d be the first to protest if some asshole wanted to bulldoze it for a tower block…

    It’s the Treaty itself that has no relevance to me. Maori would have been colonised by someone or other, and the injustices were done in a different time by different people unrelated to me.

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  6. ldypen (40 comments) says:

    Send them there on Waitangi day so they get to see the “Real” culture, I’m sure after the little kiddies see some spitting, swearing, arse cheeks and general scummy behaviour they will really get to understand how this country works FFS

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  7. Nigel (514 comments) says:

    It’s an interesting place to visit & free for New Zealanders, in fact Waitangi day is also well worthwhile, alot of people put in a huge amount of work that day from many cultures & for the day to have become so tarnished by so few is to say the least unfortunate, but in many ways reflective of the issues in the North.
    Waitangi is far more than the location of the treaty, it’s a fascinating insight into very early european settlement in New Zealand & to be honest a way more beautiful location than the Independence Hall, though that hall is fascinating in it’s own way & also well worth the visit ( If you think the Treaty was controversial, it has a cakewalk compared with the declaration of independence ).
    There is some stunning views from the Waitangi grounds which on their own are worth the visit.

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  8. OneTrack (3,089 comments) says:

    “So many New Zealanders have a view of Waitangi as being a divisive and even scary place based on what they’ve seen from protests at Waitangi from the past.”

    Thats because it is a divisive and, every Februray the 6th, a scary place. A potent symbol of how New Zealand (have the progressives changed the countries name yet) is trapped firmly in the past and moving to a new era of apartheid.

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  9. Puzzled in Ekatahuna (344 comments) says:

    Surely this depends a little on whether the Committee on the Constitution comes up with what many fear it will – an even more cemented in Treaty – and whether that will have a certain backlash.

    [And how different is the Committee on the Constitution to the secretive TPP?]

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  10. WineOh (630 comments) says:

    Like it or not, it was a key date in the formation of our country – for better or worse. Without it we were likely destined for similar outcomes like the USA and Australia where the native populations were largely wiped out by war, persecution aided by highly prejudicial legislation as well as disease. USA now has less than 1% people of indigenous descent, and around 3% in Australia. Compare this to around 12% in NZ. Its also worth looking at the massive disparities of financial and health positions of Aboriginal and American Indian populations.

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  11. Neil (586 comments) says:

    As an adult from Gore I certainly don’t want to see people given “concession” flights to Waitangi. It’s another world from us and just an unnecessary exercise.
    Better to encourage children to visit Wellington with parliament,Te Papa and other elements of our nationhood.
    I have a feeling the Australian government actively encourages school groups to visit Canberra once in their childhood, to see parliament and the Australian War Museum. In fact, I think the govt there subsidises the trip- not sure about that though.
    Waitangi is a nebulous place- it has many partisan political qualities that make it a place where views could become more entrenched.
    Wellington is our capital- it would really have an impact on most visitors.

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  12. hj (6,996 comments) says:

    We need to think about how speak of the treaty: not as a treaty but as a treaty arrangement because that is the issue.

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  13. Kea (12,811 comments) says:

    I think we need to educate kids about the Treaty. Particularly the part where Maori agreed to be subject to same laws, rights and obligations, as everyone else.

    It seems to me that Maori have breached the treaty and focused only on their rights, not their obligations.

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  14. Gulag1917 (915 comments) says:

    New Zealand needs to be deTreatyofWaitangised. It has outlived its purpose and we need to move on as mature peoples.

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  15. wf (441 comments) says:

    I have never felt the need to visit Waitangi and the nearest I have been is to Whangarei.

    I’m sure Waitangi is very pretty, and local people work very hard to ‘honor’ the treaty , but the only time it impinges on our lives is Feb 6, and then not in a pleasant way.

    I agree with Neil – Wellington is the capital and focus city of New Zealand (no matter what Aucklanders may think) It is a much more accessible place for kids to learn about our history, and visit places of national significance.

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  16. WineOh (630 comments) says:

    Better to get kids to visit Wellington, check out the Treaty exhibition at Te Papa and get a tour of Parliament.

    But not paid for on the taxpayer teat.

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  17. Kea (12,811 comments) says:

    wf, over half the population of Auckland was not born in NZ. I like the place (possibly for that reason) but it is not typically NZ.

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  18. thor42 (971 comments) says:

    I agree with Dennis Horne, wf and duggledog. This is brainwashing and reinforcement of the “white guilt” syndrome.
    This is just more socialist social engineering.

    The *only* thing that “Waitangi” means to me is the Waitangi Day holiday.
    I use that as a day off that is no different to a weekend.

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  19. backster (2,171 comments) says:

    Westpac bank can serve the nation better by continuing to sponsor Rescue Helicopters. Instead of subsidising visits to Waitangi they could create a ‘virtual’ website that the children could visit from the classrooms before settling down to reading, maths, and science.

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  20. Gulag1917 (915 comments) says:

    How has the Treaty of Waitangi helped Maoris in the last ten years?
    Are they better educated?
    Are they less violent?
    Do they intimidate people less?
    Are they living longer?
    Are their families more stable?
    Have they got better jobs?

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  21. Peter (1,712 comments) says:

    Waitangi. Can’t say I’ve ever been, and not sure why I should go. It doesn’t look welcoming. On the tele, the hate and bile flows, year after year.

    Shrugs. Ignore.

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  22. Gulag1917 (915 comments) says:

    Waitangi is a good place to visit except on Waitangi Day.

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  23. simpleton1 (224 comments) says:

    Well worth a trip to Wellington and to ask some questions ! ! about the original English draft called the Littlewood translation that was then translated into Maori that was debated on that was signed.
    Truly that was the intent from the crown and understood and is also correct in the maori version, except for the changes made when it was re-translated to English.

    An understanding of the treaty by Sir Apirana Ngata

    THE TREATY OF WAITANGI

    AN EXPLANATION

    by The Hon. Sir Apirana Ngata
    M.A., LL.B., Lit.D.

    a current question/point is raised

    “” a full side-by-side comparison of Ngata’s English translation of the Maori Tiriti with Hobson’s Final Draft, discovered in 1989 and hushed up ever since by the government’s tame historians.

    (Actually, after pressure from John Littlewood, they were finally forced to display it at National Achives.

    But they refuse to acknowledge that it is the Final Draft, dismissing it as just another of Busby’s many scratchings.

    And they keep the date — ‘Feb.4th 1840′ — face-down.

    Ask them to turn it over and see what they say!) “”
    http://treatygate.wordpress.com/2012/04/29/the-treaty-beautifully-explained-by-a-wise-and-honest-maori-leader/

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  24. mikemikemikemike (324 comments) says:

    God you people are retarded – it didn’t happen all that long ago. Christ I was alive when that Bastion Point palava was going on!! The treaty is used to spread hate and bile about Maori just as much as it is used to dredge up this countries sad past. The treaty needs to be celebrated by EVERYONE!! so that we can start to heal.

    Maori do not derserve to be treated differently under the law, maori do not deserve to be handed shit out constantly but they were also assured rights and afforded treatment that they did not receive for a long time, and that delay has undeniably delayed our collective integration and created a divide that requires them to be given opportunities to allow their people as a whole to catch up if things are to be put right (the same advantages european settlers were given over Maori when they first came here)

    As much as they have not honoured their side over the last 150 odd years neither have the colonials.

    All of us need to grow up and work out a way to move forward together, if you don’t want to pack up your shit and fuck off back to where you or your forefathers came from, its obviously much better there given how much you bitch about NZ.

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  25. doggone7 (801 comments) says:

    We are sometimes surprised at the clinging to heritage in the USA with Lincoln, Washington, Thanksgiving, etc. and historical events.
    We in some sense wallow in the history of British royalty and events like Gallipoli.

    Something comes up about a seminal episode in the evolution and development of New Zealand as a country and I see;

    “Brainwashing. If children want to see their heritage and what makes this society tick, visit Europe.”
    “It has no meaning to me as a Kiwi, it has nothing at all to do with my heritage.”
    “State propaganda. Ideas forced into children so they become unthinking & obedient.”

    There is a sadness and dislocation in those comments. Regardless of the news story which prompted these feelings to be expressed it is to be hoped that the kids subject of the suggestion, grow up with more appreciation of our history and the quality of life they have been born into, than the authors of the comments. The notions put forward suggest to me that there should be more learning about Waitangi not less.

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  26. OneTrack (3,089 comments) says:

    “Maori do not derserve to be treated differently under the law,”

    I think you will find many of them, and many white progressives, simply disagree with you. We are moving more towards apartheid rather than away from it.

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  27. Gulag1917 (915 comments) says:

    New Zealand is less than 200 years old in recorded history How does that compare with thousands of years of recorded history with a greater diversity of origins.

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  28. duggledog (1,555 comments) says:

    MMM

    Maori do not want to ‘move forward together’. That is plain for all but yourself to see. They want to move forward independently, but using the funds to do so from everyone else. Surprised I have to tell you that.

    Back to the thread, the reason for this new proposal, along with a version of the Treaty being taught in schools, part of a written constitution, te Reo being taught in schools, etc is a way of continuing the separation and the gravy train. Most people can see it for what it is.

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  29. OneTrack (3,089 comments) says:

    ” The notions put forward suggest to me that there should be more learning about Waitangi not less.”

    So, reeducation is the answer. Of course. I think you will find most of us know more than enough about Waitangi already and some of us have just drawn different conclusions to you.

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  30. mikemikemikemike (324 comments) says:

    @Duggle – you speak for all Maori? or just the ones that make it to the news? Maori and pasific people have contributed enourmously to this country in the performing arts, as well as on the sports field and in the battlefield. As a collective, given this countries tiny population compared to the world – we have done, and continue to do amazing things. These are the sorts of things that Waitangi should represent.

    As long as the bitter Maori think that living in the bush in wooden huts and the jealous immigrants who long for Auckland to be a mini london or chinatown and continue to use Waitangi as Racist day it will never get better.

    Regarding using others people funds to do it….spare me. Most NZ’ers are filthy socialists, from the rescued investors who were bailed using taxpayer funds to the south asian migrants who own takeaway and bakeries while claiming the dole in sth auckland. The fact the ‘state provides’ is exactly why NZ is seen by many as a good place to come to (and then bitch about).

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  31. hj (6,996 comments) says:

    We need to think about how speak of the treaty: not as a treaty but as a treaty arrangement because that is the issue.
    …………………..
    Language is powerful; when we argue about “the treaty” we are arguing with an opponent who is talking about something tangible. If we shift the argument to the arrangement (practical ramifications or other words) the opponent is no longer defending something solid.
    The treaty never addressed modern demographics. Neither side would have reasonably agreed that the treaty is an appropriate arrangement for today.

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  32. hj (6,996 comments) says:

    @Duggle – you speak for all Maori? or just the ones that make it to the news? Maori and pasific people have contributed enourmously to this country in the performing arts, as well as on the sports field and in the battlefield. As a collective, given this countries tiny population compared to the world – we have done, and continue to do amazing things. These are the sorts of things that Waitangi should represent.
    ……..
    that is half truth/ hype

    Pacific Islanders’ crime rates, poor education and low employment are creating an underclass and a drain on the economy, a study says.

    Economist Greg Clydesdale, of Massey University’s management and international business department, warns that Polynesians display “significant and enduring under-achievement” – a problem immigration is making worse.

    However, community leaders and Pacific Island Affairs Minister Winnie Laban strongly reject the underclass claims and condemn the study as “lazy and unprofessional”.

    The document, part of a three year-study called Growing Pains, Evaluations and the Cost of Human Capital, is based on government data from the Economic Development Ministry, Labour Department and Pacific Island Affairs Ministry. It includes a study of the effects of all immigrants on the economy and will be presented at a conference in Brazil in July.

    Issued last week, the document says Polynesians are less productive and less likely to contribute to economic growth. They have the highest unemployment in every age group, are less likely to start businesses and have lower rates of self-employment.

    Polynesians are over-represented in crime statistics and have higher rates of convictions and prosecutions.

    They are also more likely to be victims of violent crime. They are more likely to need Government assistance for housing and income.

    “Of particular concern is the large Polynesian subculture whose educational achievements mean they will contribute very poorly in this regard,” Dr Clydesdale says.

    “And because of high fertility and current immigration levels, New Zealand will have a significant population that can contribute little to economic growth.”

    Dr Clydesdale also claims Pacific Island children show low achievement in literacy on entering school and perform poorly throughout their education.

    “People are going to call me racist for putting this out. But I’m not,” he said. “It’s scary. New Zealand’s future growth depends on its ability to create new products and production processes. We’re going to have a large proportion of the population without the educational requirements to create that.”

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/453047/Pacific-migrants-drain-on-economy
    and then the thought police came to the rescue
    http://www.hrc.co.nz/…/26-Aug-2008_14-22-34_Pacific_Peoples_in_NZ.doc‎

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  33. liarbors a joke (1,069 comments) says:

    Waitangi day=day off for New Zealanders , mow the lawns and maybe have the neighbor over for a beer and a barby.

    Maori simply don’t come into the equation.

    We need a New Zealand day. Get rid of Waitangi day..it means nothing to 97% of the country.

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  34. duggledog (1,555 comments) says:

    “Maori and pasific people have contributed enourmously to this country in the performing arts, as well as on the sports field and in the battlefield”

    Well, jack me off. I’m supposed to be grateful and admiring because of rugby, Bro Town and David Tua? These are great things sure and I applaud them but they are merely distractions.

    I’ll abridge Clydesdale’s findings as posted above: For every dollar Maori and PI’s earn, they cost New Zealand three. The study’s findings were found to be Racist

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  35. Pauleastbay (5,035 comments) says:

    I can think of no reason at all why I would want to visit such a place. It has no meaning to me as a Kiwi, it has nothing at all to do with my heritage.
    Bruv

    why not?, its a very lovely place, it is part of New Zealand history. People are confusing the hi jacking of Waitangi Day by .005 % of shit bags grandstanding with the signing of the treaty and its part in history

    And duh, it has everything to do with your heritage. If memory serves me correctly it wasn’t the Hori’s that wrote it up and asked the Queen to sign it or am I mistaken?.

    the big problem with the treaty is revisionisim – like trying to play High Def movies on a black and white valve television – you can’t go back

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  36. hj (6,996 comments) says:

    More on the Clydesdale case here
    http://nominister.blogspot.co.nz/2008/08/of-weasels-and-evil-hr-directors.html

    The HCR report keeps quoting one of the 3 peer reviewers (a scathing one) and ignores the other two (one was guardedly supportive).

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  37. wikiriwhis business (3,996 comments) says:

    ‘ a full side-by-side comparison of Ngata’s English translation of the Maori Tiriti with Hobson’s Final Draft, discovered in 1989 and hushed up ever since by the government’s tame historians.’

    I was surprised to learn Hobson died two years after the signing at the young age of around 49.

    With his government low on funds, he resorted to issuing unauthorised bills on the British Treasury in 1842. wikipedia. Sounds highly illegal

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  38. MH (751 comments) says:

    We in some sense wallow in the history of British royalty and events like Gallipoli.

    Like it or not that is our heritage,at least the start of NZ written recorded history. If somone can give a defn of a European NZer without reference to those seminal events, or being British, present and passed then I’d be surprised, what we have now is denial of our beginnings and a lot of haka competitions. We have generations of European NZers not knowing who they are where they come from trying to find a heritage or a link with Maori culture that doesn’t exist. Maori know who they are, or think they do with some professing with x% connection they are Maori and putting aside their European bloodlines. And anyway the Brits are busy denying us free access to our roots. What makes us European descendants here in NZ a unique culture withouy ref to Britain, and we expect by becoming a republic that will make us independant or patroniisingly mature ? I haven’t figured it out,but I know I belong here. Maybe that’s enough. We don’t mock Maori groups that put emphasis on family but we condescendingly make remarks about our historical family connections to Britain,and I have to reluctantly record even the Irish, remove appeal rights etc and sell off Brass band instruments and close down Anglican churches.

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  39. Paulus (2,626 comments) says:

    If Westpac wish to encourage racial integration and tension then I will have to consider my accounts including term deposits with them.
    I will object if I find that my low deposits remain to encourage racial rights for so called Maori of which there are no real Maori.

    If children wish to go to Waitangi then it is up to their parents to take them, not an Australian Bank, who are only looking to protect their banking of the Government, in case Labour/Green Taliban insist on protecting and changing to the failing KiwiBank.

    Although KiwiBank could not handle the state’s banking, as they do not have enough skilled staff, but can increase them from the Public Service irrespective of their skills.

    Perhaps Westpac should employ more Maori instead.

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  40. wikiriwhis business (3,996 comments) says:

    ‘[And how different is the Committee on the Constitution to the secretive TPP?]‘

    Yet no one will admit to the conspiracy the TPP is to Kiwi’s.

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  41. Pauleastbay (5,035 comments) says:

    If Westpac wish to encourage racial integration and tension then I will have to consider my accounts including term deposits with them.

    Paulus

    With a low IQ comment like that they’ll probably be happy to see you go

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  42. wikiriwhis business (3,996 comments) says:

    ‘Although KiwiBank could not handle the state’s banking, as they do not have enough skilled staff, but can increase them from the Public Service irrespective of their skills.

    Perhaps Westpac should employ more Maori instead.’

    Maybe we should all turn to TSB

    That would send a strong message to all the Oz banks

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  43. Gulag1917 (915 comments) says:

    Westpac could be suffering from a bit of Australian guilt and naivety.

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  44. wikiriwhis business (3,996 comments) says:

    ‘Westpac could be suffering from a bit of Australian guilt and naivety.’

    Aussies are ruthless. We got nothing on them.

    Joh Bjelke-Petersen is living proof. His ruthlessness endeared him to Aussies.

    That he was Kiwi was all forgotten and forgiven.

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  45. MT_Tinman (3,184 comments) says:

    Having spent a great deal of one summer alongside the residents of Waitangi in various hostelries around Paihia I admit I enjoyed their company but have no desire to visit their home.

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  46. jcuk (686 comments) says:

    I would have thought ‘breakfast at school’ would be a better place fo Westpac to put their money than this. But it is a long time since I banked at the ‘Wales’ so really of no interest to me … but the thought of the deprivation of children through their parents scraping up for even a subsidised trip saddens me.

    It will be good to have DPF back tomorrow is it when he returns to civilisation?

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  47. jcuk (686 comments) says:

    “”Maybe we should all turn to TSB “”

    or the SBS for mainlanders and southern islanders.

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  48. Manolo (13,753 comments) says:

    More crap from gravy train promoters and fellow travellers.

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  49. DJP6-25 (1,387 comments) says:

    hj 12.14 Delete the word Polynesians, and replace it with the phrase working class, or lower class, or decile 1-3. The values and assumptions of these groups are quite similar. So are the outcomes.

    Sorry, had a crash and didn’t look befor re-posting. So the first one is in the wrong place.

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  50. simpleton1 (224 comments) says:

    ” Wiki “With his government low on funds, he resorted to issuing unauthorised bills on the British Treasury in 1842. wikipedia. Sounds highly illegal”
    Just “why” is interesting as all the politics of that time
    Sure it sounds like Hobson had his faults in 1842, though there were many pressures of politics and money/costs/revenue in those times.
    Just how do you cut a line through all this besides what wikipedia leaves out, probably the pieces I did not put in the following quotes summary;- about settlers to Nelson, closing down newspapers, seat of government parochialism, yellow-fever strokes health problems, french at Banks Peninsula, etc.

    ……..1 March 1840 he collapsed from a paralytic stroke…….

    …….erred in his handling of an unusual situation which had developed at the New Zealand Company’s settlement at Port Nicholson (Wellington) where a “Council” had been established as a mode of government. When news of this experiment in self-government reached the Bay of Islands, Hobson acted impulsively and sent off a detachment of troops to suppress the “republic”…..

    ……his relationship with the Maori people rested on a basis of mutual good will. In 1842, for instance, when a Ngati Maru chief, Taraia, had killed and eaten the victims of his raid on Tauranga, Hobson, when he tried to interfere, was bluntly snubbed. “With the Governor is the settling of pakeha affairs”, he was told; “It is with us to adjust Maori matters”…..

    …….a stringent limit on holdings, much to the disgust of a powerful group of pre-Waitangi settlers……

    ……..strictly warned by the Colonial Office to keep a tight control over official expenditure, recurring bouts of illness compelled him to rely more and more upon his advisers who, in many instances, were broken reeds – or worse. Little was done to curb extravagance, the cost of “improvements” to Government House at Auckland……

    ……..revenue, which was derived mainly from customs duties and the sale of Crown lands, fell sharply away, the consequence being that from March 1842, and contrary to his instructions, Hobson drew unauthorized bills on Treasury in order to meet the current expenses of Government. It was a situation which would have taxed to the utmost a talented administrator……

    http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/1966/hobson-william

    Many sites do not look at the direct translation of english to maori as in the Littlewood draft or simply used the Freeman’s copy.

    Sure there are things to be rectified but under the current government translation into English only adds to the problems.

    If it is as per “Littlewood draft” 4th February, then those immortal words, ““He Iwi Tahi Tatou””We are now one people”” would have real meaning as said by Hobson at the end of the initial signing, referring to the English final draft treaty written by Busby if it is part of the constitution.

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  51. snapdragon (7 comments) says:

    Nothing like a post about Waitangi to bring out the worst in people. I have been going to Waitangi most of my life (since the early 1950’s), sometimes on 6 February but often on any day of the year. It is a beautiful, tranquil spot laced with history and tradition – little wonder visitors to NZ make a point of visiting. For the same reasons we visit Independence Hall and similar places in other countries around the world. Put aside the crap that a small minority of Maori and other protesters get up to each year, Waitangi is the birthplace of our nation and the more New Zealand who visit Waitangi and absorb the history and atmosphere of the place the better New Zealanders they will be. The comments above suggest a universal view that all Maori are a bunch of losers. That is bullshit. Most Maori want the same as most Pakeha – they want their kids to do better than them and to lead a worthwhile life. Most Maori go to work every day, send their kids to school (after breakfast and with their lunch), get them involved in sport and do the best they can for their family to succeed. Sure, many Maori start off behind the 8-ball but check out some of our history. You only have to go back 60-70 years or so to find some pretty disgusting State approved racism. Find out when Maori men got the vote, then Maori women, find out how much benefit a Maori widow got even though she had been married to a Pakeha and was left alone with 7 children (sometimes more, sometimes less), check out our Native Schools and Maori training and the kinds of jobs young Maori were channelled into. Check it out and be pretty amazed that so many Maori are doing well today. And finally take a look at the Australian experience. Waitangi was the place where a formal relationship between Maori and the Queen & her government started and compared to our neighbours across the Tasman we have done pretty well.

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  52. Nigel (514 comments) says:

    Yep snapdragon that about nails it, it does seem to me that a lot of people on here are happy to bag waitangi Day from the security of their armchair, personally I preferred to take my unfit overweight white middle class ass and walk around and see for myself and I never felt any agro. Though it did make me ponder how accurate tv “journalism” is :).
    To be honest the ill fated destiny church march was way more disturbing, Waitangi Day is 98% people enjoying themselves.

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  53. liarbors a joke (1,069 comments) says:

    “You only have to go back 60-70 years or so to find some pretty disgusting State approved racism.”

    Not so..we still have it ..maori only this , maori only that..maori companies that dont pay tax…maori who dont pay rates on their land…maori wanting discounted jail time because they are maori…

    Why do maori think they are so special and why do they require preferential treatment?

    I believe this is why the majority of NZ’ers have turned their backs on anything to do with maori..the sickening display of freebees and handouts all to do with ones skin colour and perceived past wrongs is just not right and only creates future grief.

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  54. snapdragon (7 comments) says:

    Give me a break liabors. Open the other eye and see both sides. Do you really believe everything you read in the newpapers? One grizzleguts wants discounted jail time and you believe they all do. Fact is most jailbirds get discounted jail time anyway. The business of business is to minimize the tax bill and there are plenty of Maori owned businesses that pay tax – just as all companies who minimize their tax bill to zero are not necessarily Maori owned. If you’re sickened by freebees for Maori, just know that I was sickened by the actions of directors of finance companies who lost hundreds of millions of NZers’ hard earned cash (about 8 billion), carried on as directors and CEOs paying themselves monumental salaries while the invested funds went down the gurgler. How come the directors of Strategic Finance, Hanover, St Laurence Group to name a few (pushing 2 billion there) were never arrested? No Maori there and no justice either. I think you need to wake up.

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  55. Longknives (4,740 comments) says:

    It staggers me that we seemingly want to send our innocent kids into the firing line to be spat on, abused and insulted by the Harawiras/Popatas etc

    Just another step in the slippery slide towards The Republic of Aotearoa becoming the Zimbabwe of the South Pacific…

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  56. Pauleastbay (5,035 comments) says:

    Longknives

    I believe the suggestion is to visit Waitangi at some stage not all descend there on Feb 6. I don’t think the shit bags have a roster system to watch for long pork arriving and then jump out at them.

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  57. liarbors a joke (1,069 comments) says:

    How about we focus instead on our forefathers who sailed over here from England…their hard yards etc rather than a bunch of stone aged portly natives who yell and scream a lot whilst showing their arses. That would be a far better national day don’t you think?

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  58. duggledog (1,555 comments) says:

    PEB I agree but

    Perception is everything. To many, many NZers, Waitangi = exactly what Longknives just said. I reckon the vast majority of South Islanders – the very countrymen whose offspring ‘ought to visit Waitangi’ because of the distance – wouldn’t give two shits about the place, or the Treaty. I know they mostly don’t even give a shit about the North Island!

    Right or wrong that’s how I see it

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  59. hj (6,996 comments) says:

    Snapdragon:

    “You only have to go back 60-70 years or so to find some pretty disgusting State approved racism. Find out when Maori men got the vote, then Maori women, find out how much benefit a Maori widow got even though she had been married to a Pakeha and was left alone with 7 children (sometimes more, sometimes less), check out our Native Schools and Maori training and the kinds of jobs young Maori were channelled into. Check it out and be pretty amazed that so many Maori are doing well today.”
    …………………..
    I think Chinese were treated worse?

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  60. dave_c_ (219 comments) says:

    Welcome to “totalitarian” NZ – if this crap gets off the ground, we’ll all be required to visit the beehive and pay homage to our lofty leaders.

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  61. hj (6,996 comments) says:

    I don’t think the treaty is the “foundation of the nation” because the views on what it entails vary widely.
    At one level by aboriginal title (some) Maori claim whatever isn’t nailed down or under the treaty as tino ragitiratanga basically everything not nailed down in what was tribal territory.

    Ever since 1840 Iwi and Hapu have claimed that the foreshore and seabed fall within the exercise of tino rangatiratanga because they are both part of the whenua*.

    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO0307/S00029.htm

    and what isn’t/wasn’t “part of the whenua” The treaty is essentially a bottomless blank cheque.

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  62. hj (6,996 comments) says:

    from Civil War & Other Optimistic Predictions (David Slack)

    Pragmatism, Andrew Sharp notes, has been a feature of our
    negotiation of Treaty issues. He has written that people who
    took this point of view were happy to ‘fudge’ it. We had
    arguments, he points out, that didn’t seem capable of being
    solved: people could not agree on what rights Maori and Pakeha
    respectively had, and what was due to them. In the face of
    impossible disagreement, the past two decades saw deals,
    settlements and arrangements that could be lived with.
    Pragmatic resolutions, in the face of altogether—too- difficult
    philosophical disagreements.

    If that’s so, is there a better way of going about this? Sharp
    says we fail to look at issues in a useful way Take, he says, the
    way the foreshore debate developed:

    You’ve replaced a common law regime with a statutory one —
    and a statutory one in the end more favourable to Maori than
    the common law one. It’s just a statutory regime, which will
    work, substituting for a common law regime which probably
    did nothing. But the problem with doing anything was what
    bedevils our politics — brash symbolism.

    That’s why, he says, he doesn’t like the Treaty much, because it
    doesn’t mean anything until you get down to details and clarify
    your meanings, and once you do, you’re in trouble because
    whatever you do there’s going to be disagreement.
    And it’s the same with this. It was a debate where meanings
    were uncontrolled – anything could happen, anything could be
    said, all of this might seem somehow to be relevant to what was
    at issue, but none of it was.

    He says we New Zealanders do a pretty poor job of isolating,
    clarifying and writing about precisely what it is we’re arguing
    about. And because we don’t analyse and understand those
    arguments, we don’t actually see the consequences of our
    arguments. He gives the example of the way the debate took
    shape in the mid-1970s about reparation for past wrongs:

    It was assumed – far too easily I think – that there was some
    substance in the argument. There wasn’t any substance at all.

    As I said above the treaty is a (potentially) bottomless blank cheque.

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  63. hj (6,996 comments) says:

    quote from Bullshit, Backlash, and Bleeding Hearts. By David Slack Quoting Law Lecturer Alex Frame

    People sometimes ask me, ‘How do I see the Treaty. How should we think of the Treaty?’ I’ve always said that the first article of the Treaty – the kawanatanga part – is very strong – much stronger than some Maori are prepared to concede, and the second article, which guarantees rangatiratanga is also very strong – much stronger than many Pakeha are prepared to concede. So how can we have these two strong articles sitting there? I’m tempted sometimes by this idea. In a way both sides gambled. The Crown gambled. Why was it prepared to sign up to Article II? Well, in a sense the Crown gambled that there would be assimilation. And therefore if there was assimilation, as you will see. Article II would become increasingly unimportant. On the other hand, Maori gambled. After all, why did Maori sign up for Article I – and by the way, don’t go for these readings that say Article I was only giving the Queen power over Pakeha. The most elementary reading of the Maori version of the first article shows that that is completely untenable. It gives the Queen te Kawanatanga katoa – all – of the kawanatanga; o ratou wenua – of their lands. Now, which lands is that? That’s the lands of the chiefs. That’s all it can be -have a look at the structure and I challenge anyone to show me an even faintly tenable reading which can dispute that it’s all the territory of New Zealand.
    So why did Maori sign up to that? Well, I think they gambled. I think they gambled that the as they were in 1840, but would stay approximately such that there would be a preponderance of Maori and that the newcomers would be relatively few.* I know there is a reference in the preamble to others coming, but I think the gamble was that if the demographics stayed favourable to Maori then this kawanatanga thing would be a really abstract sort of notion in the background.

    So how is that agreement? Remember too that it was Maori who were in the majority and in the strongest position at that point in time. Therefore I don’t agree that somehow the treaty terms are somehow fortuiously apt for today. As has been pointed out “most New zealanders (brown/white) don’t have two shillings to rub together”. It is the left who hold that NZ is “rich”

    *“The Ati Awa chief Te Wharepouri told William Wakefield that when he had participated in the sale of land to the New Zealand Company he had been expecting about ten Pakeha, to settle around Port Nicholson, one Pakeha for each pa.
    When he saw the more than 1,000 settlers who stepped off the company’s ships, he panicked. It was beyond anything that Te Wharepouri had imagined.”
    Penguin History of NZ Michael King.

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  64. hj (6,996 comments) says:

    Suppose we instituted a land tax payable to the local iwi? That would represent a just solution if you follow the finger wagging of the self-righteous treatyfiles?

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  65. Manolo (13,753 comments) says:

    I’ll visit Waitangi the day the Stone Agers stop killing their children, that is….never.

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  66. MT_Tinman (3,184 comments) says:

    Manolo (11,383) Says:
    November 30th, 2013 at 7:18 pm
    I’ll visit Waitangi the day the Stone Agers stop killing their children, that is….never.

    Why for christs sake?

    Surely you should be encouraging them, egging them on until the kill equals 100%.

    Then, one short generation later, they’ll all be gone.

    …. er oooops … is that exactly what you are doing?

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  67. Gulag1917 (915 comments) says:

    Put the issue of the Treaty of Waitangi to a referendum making it a choice between;
    1..maintenance of it
    2..reform of it
    3..abolition of it

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  68. goldnkiwi (1,304 comments) says:

    Pauleastbay (4,670) Says:

    November 30th, 2013 at 12:28 pm
    I can think of no reason at all why I would want to visit such a place. It has no meaning to me as a Kiwi, it has nothing at all to do with my heritage.
    Bruv

    why not?, its a very lovely place, it is part of New Zealand history. People are confusing the hi jacking of Waitangi Day by .005 % of shit bags grandstanding with the signing of the treaty and its part in history

    And duh, it has everything to do with your heritage. If memory serves me correctly it wasn’t the Hori’s that wrote it up and asked the Queen to sign it or am I mistaken?.

    the big problem with the treaty is revisionisim – like trying to play High Def movies on a black and white valve television – you can’t go back.

    The doctrine of CONTRA PROFERENTUM is applied, that is why

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  69. Gulag1917 (915 comments) says:

    Thought our society was in a state of evolution.

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  70. doggone7 (801 comments) says:

    Gulag ponders our society being in a state of evolution. Someone simply suggests NZ kids should visit the Waitangi Treaty grounds and someone says “It staggers me that we seemingly want to send our innocent kids into the firing line to be spat on, abused and insulted by the Harawiras/Popatas etc.Just another step in the slippery slide towards The Republic of Aotearoa becoming the Zimbabwe of the South Pacific…”

    Someone proffers “How about we focus instead on our forefathers who sailed over here from England…their hard yards etc. rather than a bunch of stone aged portly natives who yell and scream a lot whilst showing their arses” and we have “I’ll visit Waitangi the day the Stone Agers stop killing their children, that is….never.”

    My ancestors who came out early probably had dreams of working with the natives wanting this place to be the best in the world. Hopefully they weren’t the criminals escaping Europe and taking their nastiness and ignorance with them. Whichever group they were in they might have reason for pride in the way our children have turned out with their positive contribution to the evolution. Reading some of the stuff on here though would most likely leave them dismayed.

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  71. kowtow (8,443 comments) says:

    People should visit the place and see how the British Residency,built in Australia, and grounds has been turned into a Maori fantasy land ,a sort of Disneyfication of British history in this former colony.

    Bledisloe (not a Maori fella)bought the neglected estate and gifted it to New Zealand now Aotearoa.

    The place has become an example of cultural suicide by British New Zealand paid for by the taxpayer.

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  72. Gulag1917 (915 comments) says:

    Maybe Westpac should finance a decent road/freeway to Russell. Auckland to Russell takes 232 km, 3 hours 17 mins on
    SH 1 according to Google Maps. Double that for the return journey, enough to make anybody grumpy.

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  73. Gulag1917 (915 comments) says:

    Amendment to the last post;
    Auckland to Waitangi is 229 km, and 2 hours 51 mins SH 1 double that for return journey.
    Still too slow.

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  74. itstricky (1,830 comments) says:

    Surely you should be encouraging them, egging them on until the kill equals 100%.

    The sickos who upticked that deserve such a fate themselves. Seriously.

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  75. itstricky (1,830 comments) says:

    How about we focus instead on our forefathers who sailed over here from England…their hard yards etc rather than a bunch of stone aged portly natives who yell and scream a lot whilst showing their arses.

    You could, of course, move back to England – then you wouldn’t have to deal with the stone aged portly natives. Just a thought.

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  76. hj (6,996 comments) says:

    Golden kiwis

    The doctrine of CONTRA PROFERENTUM is applied, that is why
    ……………………………
    How is the Green party going with that?

    One of jh’s themes has been dis-satisfaction with the Green Party for not being specific about the outcomes of our policy in relation to the Treaty. “What, specifically, will this country be like if we go down this course?”. It’s a question I have heard many times over the years, and it usually speaks from a position of fear and insecurity for Pakeha: what if I’ll be worse off? or even what if there’s no place for me?
    I want to acknowledge that actually we are asking people to do something (and we are doing it too) quite different from what we usually ask with our policy. Normally we have a very clear idea of the outcome we are seeking, and establish a policy to reflect how we will get there.
    But the Treaty is different. The words all have the potential to sound pretty hammy, but fundamentally the outcome being sought is a process: the process of absolute good faith negotiation, in which we Pakeha engage from a position of honour – acting ethically and morally.
    That process involves courage because we don’t know the outcome (and because we know we have it pretty sweet just how things are, let’s be honest). It is pretty scary, but it’s also pretty damn exciting!

    http://blog.greens.org.nz/2010/05/03/my-speech-at-blackball-2010/

    Avoid Myopic View Of Fiji

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  77. hj (6,996 comments) says:

    Golden Kiwi

    The doctrine of CONTRA PROFERENTUM is applied, that is why

    ……………………
    not necessarily although since you are appealing to international law and who knows who the individuals constituting the world could be one might expect a Joris de Bree type appointee straight out of the left flank or an anti western membership.
    As Kevin Hague says “It’s pretty scary as we don’t know the outcome” So what sort of treaty outcome should should justice decree for the descendants of the (possibly) 100,000 hunter gatherer and kumara growers and the settlers who brought agriculture greatly increasing the carrying capacity?

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  78. hj (6,996 comments) says:

    Standing Tall on Te Tiriti O Waitangi
    Green Party

    A point made at Waitangi was that the treaty can protect us all. If it had not been for the treaty, land under our railways and under state plantation forests would have been sold when the rail company and the forests were sold. It was not. The treaty gives us an argument that counts internationally to prevent privatisation of national assets, growing of GE food and patenting of New Zealand plants and animals by multinationals. It is in all our interests to support it.

    so why can’t a general political process do the same (where there are valid arguments).

    An important part of the treaty in Maori can be translated as: “The Queen of England confirms and guarantees to the chiefs, to the tribes, and to all the people of New Zealand, the absolute chieftainship (tino rangatiratanga) of their lands, of their homes and all their treasured possessions”.

    People often translate this as meaning “Maori sovereignty”. This is frightening for some. They say it means “handing over everything to Maori”. This is certainly not our understanding of what is being asked for. It may not even be an adequate translation as it raises as many questions as it answers. It is probably better not to use the words until we have an agreement on what they mean. What we do know they mean is that Maori did not sign away their authority over their people, their resources or their treasures.

    How this can be given effect in 21st century New Zealand is the real issue – that discussion will be part of the journey, and it is a difficult one.

    i
    so don’t be too worried it doesn’t mean “handing everything to Maori” although it does mean “Maori did not sign away their authority over their people, their resources or their treasures.”. And all this will happen in an over there not Brighton Pier (where Malcolm Mulhollond and his group protested the foreshore and seabed).

    over there might be near

    The region of greater Auckland the three of us live in, and help represent, once contained arguably the largest organic gardens in New Zealand history, and huge Maori wealth.

    and the Greens make a direct connection which is a little disingenuous “if you still owned that land you would be rich” and “if you lived in a tribal society you wouldn’t have social problems”. Every human psyche evolved in small tribal groups.

    Land confiscations took that wealth, and we believe the effects are evident today. Last year, for example, in a “needs assessment” report by the Waikato District Health Board, deprivation statistics showed 76.2 percent of Maori over age 15 in the Hauraki District had an annual income of less than $20,000 and the district unemployment rate for Maori was 22.4 percent. The board said almost two thirds of Maori deaths in Waikato occurred under age 64, while for the total population of the region the figure was only about one quarter.

    The international legal doctrine of contra preferentum means indigenous language versions of treaties between indigenous peoples and colonising powers are the ones that must be adhered to where there is disagreement. Added to this, both Governor Hobson and most of the Maori chiefs signed the Maori language version. It is significantly different from the English. It guaranteed tino rangatiratanga at hapu level – the authority for a hapu to manage its own affairs.

    they are presupposing that a case can’t be made the other way; that Maori ownership of the foreshore and seabed is moral high ground compared to a Queens chain; that a landed tribal elite with inherited rights are superior to universalism. Their moral justification is that as Maori are statistically under dog a new power structure will raise them as equals ignoring the fact that a much more unfair system could develop (a throwback to the past)

    The journey

    As Green MPs embrace the party’s tiriti policies, we are not “going back to 1840″, do not romanticise society then and are aware of practices in both cultures at that time which would not be acceptable today.

    We are on a new mission that weaves an exciting, and long overdue indigenous dimension to our party fabric of ecological wisdom, social and economic justice, non-violence and participatory democracy. No doubt we will gain, as individuals and as a party, much more than we will give in such a task.

    We need to act, and learn, together. There is a whakatauki, a proverb, which says: Ko te totara totika ki roto i te wao – the straightest, tallest totara (are) in the heart of the forest – in other words, leaders are nothing without others around to support them.

    And it should be said here; how can we truly understand the natural history of this country without the hundreds of years of Maori knowledge of it; of the poetry about native birds, animals and trees; the widely-ignored herbal remedies from plants, and indeed the spiritual reverence for mountains, lakes and rivers? Merely learning the meanings behind a local place name can be enriching. Tamaki-makau-rau – Tamaki of a hundred lovers: Maori name for Auckland – describes an area which commanded people’s affections because of its physical location and fertile soils, but it also evokes the image of a hundred or so small volcanic cones, all in close proximity.

    That is the alleged Maori cultural advantage involving racist assumptions of indigenous superiority. Here it is used to justify breaking rules of universalism. Studies of the mutton birders showed the advantages of modern statistical analysis a Pakeha Barry Crump knows as much about the wilds as a Maori.

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  79. deadrightkev (467 comments) says:

    I will visit Waitangi the day New Zealand gets to hear the truth regarding the treaty, bogus treaty claims and the total disgrace that the National party in particular has perpetrated on the New Zealand taxpayer in the name of compensation.

    It will one day go down as the biggest scam in this country’s history. All approved by the party that is supposedly against Maori seats.

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  80. deadrightkev (467 comments) says:

    hj

    What utter intelligence insulting bullshit. Since when was the UN around in 1840?

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