General Debate 20 April 2014

April 20th, 2014 at 8:00 am by Kokila Patel
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271 Responses to “General Debate 20 April 2014”

  1. Pete George (23,680 comments) says:

    What are people’s thoughts here about what part cannabis plays in the synthetic drug issue?

    Is cannabis as risky, riskier or is it safer?
    If cannabis was available the same as synthetics would the problem be better, worse or similar?
    If no synthetics pass the safety test of the new Act and nothing else changes will the problems get better or worse?
    Should the laws related to cannabis use be reviewed?
    Should the laws related to cannabis cultivation be reviewed?
    Should the laws related to cannabis supply be reviewed?
    Should all psychoactive substances be banned (including cannabis)?

    When the Psychoactive Substances Act kicks in we may have no synthetic drugs legally for sale or we may have a reduced number of them for sale. Regardless, we will still have issues with drug use, drug addiction and associated problems – especially health and crime.

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  2. Scott Chris (6,176 comments) says:

    Colin Craig’s gerrymander:

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11241127

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  3. hj (7,062 comments) says:

    Likely reasons why NZ’s economic bubble will pop:

    Interest rates have been at all-time lows for almost a half-decade
    Property prices have doubled since 2004
    New Zealand has the world’s third most overvalued property market
    New Zealand’s mortgage bubble grew by 165% since 2002
    Nearly half of mortgages have floating interest rates
    Mortgages account for 60% of banks’ loan portfolios
    Finance, not agriculture, is New Zealand’s largest industry
    New Zealand’s banks are exposed to Australia’s bubble
    Australian and Chinese buyers are inflating the property bubble
    New Zealand has a household debt problem
    Government overseas debt has nearly tripled since 2008
    The New Zealand dollar is overvalued

    What to expect:

    The property bubble will pop
    Banks will experience losses on their mortgage portfolios
    The country’s credit boom will turn into a bust
    Over-leveraged consumers will default on their debts
    Stock and bond prices will fall; the New Zealand dollar may weaken
    Economic growth will go into reverse
    Unemployment will rise

    http://tvnz.co.nz/business-news/analyst-predicts-grim-times-new-zealand-economy-5936246

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  4. lolitasbrother (746 comments) says:

    Reference above
    :Scott Chris (5,676 comments) says:

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11241127

    Shall we get real now, or will we wait. How long to you want to wait brothers and sisters.
    Conservative party will not dangle and dingle and medallions for Winston.
    The Conservative party takes over where ACT has failed.
    Lets be brave and go there

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  5. duggledog (1,582 comments) says:

    PG

    My take on it is this, after seeing many of my contemporaries in the 80s and 90s either fry their brains or waste their lives doing ‘art’ that nobody wanted –

    Cannabis and synthetics both have the ability to make someone psychotic, the weed they grow these days is f***ing rocket fuel (interestingly the Greens never worry about genetically engineered marijuana do they, but that’s what it all is now).

    How about the guy that killed himself jumping off a balcony the other day by ‘exceeding the recommended dose of cannabis cookies’?

    The way I see it we either legalise the whole lot – great, fine, so long as you register as a user and as such become invalid to receive any government support for your f***ed up life from me, the taxpayer. And if you want to register me as a ‘user’ because I like a beer or a wine now and then; so be it, I’m responsible and I don’t let it control me. We allow New Zealanders to vote for this, for a period of five years, with the proviso we can vote it out again (we most certainly will!).

    Or

    We actually decide that cannabis is dangerous, like other drugs, and enforce its prohibition properly. The reason we can’t police it is because the penalties for using or selling are so pathetic nobody gives a shit and it’s business as usual.

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  6. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    love the weather

    it wouldn’t be due to climate change ?

    just a coincidence.

    Drought , rain ,coastal flooding.

    AGW science says all will intensify with time.

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  7. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    Should all psychoactive substances be banned (including cannabis)?

    Does a majority of fools have any right to limit the liberty of the minority?

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  8. Chuck Bird (4,923 comments) says:

    Jack Tame is concerned that the Kiwi mixing with terrorist did not get a fair trial. None of the victims of the terrorist scum get a fair trial.

    Jack Tame: Remote death by drone, so 2014 /b>

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11241090

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  9. Reid (16,632 comments) says:

    Christ is risen.

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  10. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Alcohol.
    http://drugfoundation.org.nz/alcohol/health-effects
    Short-term effects

    Drinking too much alcohol can affect the body very badly. Effects can vary depending on a person’s weight, metabolism and how long ago they have eaten.

    The immediate effects of drinking alcohol can include:

    initial relaxation
    reduced concentration
    lack of coordination and slow reflexes
    mood changes, aggression or being overly emotional
    confusion, blurred vision and poor muscle control
    nausea, vomiting and incontinence
    alcohol poisoning
    coma and death.

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  11. kiwi in america (2,508 comments) says:

    A big thank you to Cameron Slater for linking to my guest post here on Friday on Whaleoil later that day and for his mentioning Labour’s bunker mentality denial here at Whaleoil yesterday. For those who may be inclined to wonder over to The Standard, Cunliffe’s advisor Greg Presland aka mickeysavage devoted an entire blog post to a rebuttal http://thestandard.org.nz/the-right-wing-only-want-to-help-us/ and I have commented on the thread of that post in response. I was surprised at what weak tea he offered up and also the poor quality of rebuttal of the Labour supporters who commented. I must confess I’m not often on The Standard but good on Greg for allowing the comment out of moderation.

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  12. duggledog (1,582 comments) says:

    hj –

    I remember mortgages being in the 15 – 18% category and as such I have always tried to keep my debt real low and my spending to a minimum. I must have Scots ancestry (actually I do). The generation who have recently bought houses they can’t afford in Auckland and are setting themselves up to have families etc will have to learn the hard way unfortunately.

    I sometimes wonder where all the common sense went; no doubt it’s just ‘old fashioned’ and anyway the teachers told us we could be anything we wanted to be, and the Government will always look after us no matter what.

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  13. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    I remember mortgages around the 25%, necessitating holding down one full-time and two-part-time jobs, as well as starting up a business. That would not be tolerated by the majority of left-leaning, self-entitled, Labour/Green voting, envious leeches today.

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  14. kowtow (8,733 comments) says:

    Yes Chuck that piece written by Jack Tame was rubbish.

    He says “We don’t know much about the New Zealander killed.”

    That’s right Jack ,because you lame lumps of apologists in the MSM aren’t doing your jobs.

    In fact you act as gate keepers and controllers and manipulators of the message that is fed to us the sheeple.

    Get a name and face for this guy.

    If it had been some dumb bitch banged up in Bali you’d be all over it.

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  15. Pete George (23,680 comments) says:

    Re KIA and The Standard – Greg Presland’s said:

    Before you tell the Labour Party what it is doing wrong can you firstly get your facts straight.

    A fair request – except that in that same post Greg made a claim that he must have known was factually incorrect. I called him on it and after a while he altered his statement (although he left the original comment) and said:

    [Corrected Pete. I did not comprehend how describing you as a United Future supporter would cause such upset – MS]

    Sort of corrected. And I wasn’t upset, just making a point about his hypocrisy and suggesting he should act by the standards he asked of others in his post.

    Greg, if you want others to be honest about David Cunliffe you need need to avoid getting things wrong don’t you think?

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  16. hj (7,062 comments) says:

    duggledog (1,109 comments) says:
    The generation who have recently bought houses they can’t afford in Auckland and are setting themselves up to have families etc will have to learn the hard way unfortunately.
    ……..
    I know a couple in Chch who recently paid 450,000 for a 1970’s 2 br unit of about 5. It had a strange smell so I hope it wasn’t a P lab. They were desperate as they were renting and had to move out for EQC and if they moved back in the landlords were going Max Market. People can’t see an end in sight, national is in denial blaming land supply and labour/Green are happy that hordes more will come to gain a claim to the NZ landmass.

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  17. kowtow (8,733 comments) says:

    The “Syrian rebels” (Qatar and Saudi Arabia)are desperate to get Obummer and Camoron involved in the Sunni coup there.They’re still gassing the people they claim to be “liberating”.

    http://www.aljazeera.com/video/middleeast/2014/04/syrian-activists-allege-new-gas-attack-2014419192649194457.html

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  18. muggins (3,800 comments) says:

    Pete George
    No real opinion on cannabis except to say I have never smoked anything, nor has my wife, nor have my children, nor have my grandchildren, nor have any of my inlaws.
    So all I can say is I don’t understand why anyone smokes anything, be it cigarettes or cannabis or whatever.

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  19. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    Newstalkzb are on the Labour run again this morning. They are giving “Drunk Dyson” premiere airspace to push her foul and disgusting Labour diatribe. A effen disgrace!

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  20. stephieboy (3,379 comments) says:

    For Resurrection Sunday.

    II. Loveliest of trees, the cherry now
     
     
    LOVELIEST of trees, the cherry now

    Is hung with bloom along the bough,

    And stands about the woodland ride

    Wearing white for Eastertide.

     
    Now, of my threescore years and ten,
            5
    Twenty will not come again,

    And take from seventy springs a score,

    It only leaves me fifty more.

     
    And since to look at things in bloom

    Fifty springs are little room,
            10
    About the woodlands I will go

    To see the cherry hung with snow.

    E. Housman (1859–1936).  A Shropshire Lad.  1896.

    Russian Orthodox Chant for Easter – ” Thy Resurrection, O Christ Saviour”

     
    At the beginning of the Pascha all lights in the church are out and the church is dark symbolizing the darkness of death. Then the priest comes out and spreads the Light of Christ to the faithful and the church slowly begins to light up while everyone sings: “Thy Resurrection O Christ our Saviour, the angels in heaven sing. Enable us on earth to glorify They with purity of heart.”



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  21. wat dabney (3,805 comments) says:

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  22. big bruv (14,132 comments) says:

    How the hell is Dyson sober enough to be on Radio?

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  23. kowtow (8,733 comments) says:

    Ah yes,the brave fearless voice of the cultural marxists at the BBC,masquarading as “comedy”.

    No point in any of us anticipating they do a “spoof” entitled Mild Mohammed Rapes Underage Sex Slave ………

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  24. dirty harry (513 comments) says:

    http://news.msn.co.nz/nationalnews/8832435/government-under-pressure-to-red-zone-land

    No way. The pillicks that purchased properties in the area knew it was a flood plain..that’s what LIM reports tell you, ask anyone in Christchurch about houses in those streets, they will tell you to stay clear.
    So they go running to Dalzell and cry and blubber.

    Get real..you knew when you purchased it was a bathtub..now suffer the consequences of your decision, not the taxpayers.

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  25. stephieboy (3,379 comments) says:

    Wat dabney’s post brings me back to this quote which sums up much of what passes for British TV ” comedy” these days ,

    The externals are important but I’m not interested in superficiality.

    
~ Kyan Douglas.

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  26. dirty harry (513 comments) says:

    Properties cyclical. Ive been around long enough to see the signs , been through 3 boom and busts. So I wait. When the times right and the market falls over ( again ) I’m in…couple more investment properties added to the list at bargain basement price.

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  27. wat dabney (3,805 comments) says:

    You are obviously a very deep and serious thinker, stephieboy.

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  28. kowtow (8,733 comments) says:

    As opposed to wat dumbneys thinking which is…….

    .

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  29. mikenmild (11,662 comments) says:

    Deborah Coddington dishes the dirt on Don Brash:
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/9960334/NZ-dodged-bullet-on-Brash-ex-MP

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  30. dirty harry (513 comments) says:

    stephieboy@9.06

    What a crock of…

    Wakey wake.

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  31. hj (7,062 comments) says:

    Yesterday there was discussion about http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/. The claim was made that it is “White Supremest”. Some of it seems close to the wind but why should we run in horror if it crosses the line at times. It is that reaction that has become part of our cultural indoctrination. After all you could read a host of other ethnicity based sights and criticism of whites would be seen as catch up or still paying back?
    an excerpt from the home page:

    The public presentations as part of their candidacies by two finalists for a professorship at the University of Vermont:

    “If not me, then who will counsel a recent immigrant about race and racism that was experienced at the supermarket or for that matter with an advisor or faculty member on campus? If not me, then who will work with a White student to encourage the process of self-exploration of her/his identity, privilege, oppression and racism and the ensuing guilt that employs a non-judgmental model for that White student’s ignorance and lack of exposure to diverse issues?”

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  32. dirty harry (513 comments) says:

    “Rich resigned the welfare portfolio after arguing with Brash over his desire to refer to beneficiaries as “satan”, “bludgers” and “an army on the march”, Coddington says.”

    The stupid woman. Get back in the kitchen.

    Ive always liked Don Brash…and now I like him even more after reading that.

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  33. Longknives (4,858 comments) says:

    Jack Tame must be the only person on the planet mourning the loss of that Terrorist scum.
    It is frightening that a supposedly ‘prominent’ NZ journalist can have such extreme views…He appears to actively support Al Qaeda!

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  34. Longknives (4,858 comments) says:

    And has Deborah Coddington lost the plot?? (Or has becoming part of the Treaty ‘Gravy Train’ changed her perception somewhat?)

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  35. mikenmild (11,662 comments) says:

    hj
    It wasn’t just a claim: the site’s tagline is ‘White Identity, Interests and Culture. It’s a pile of garbage.

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  36. dime (10,095 comments) says:

    Coddington – she’s the moron who does the radio live show with Jackson sometimes? Agrees with him about 90% of the time… While telling us she’s right wing.

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  37. Longknives (4,858 comments) says:

    So “White Culture” is garbage then Mikey??
    *It intrigues me that every Ethnic group on the planet is allowed to be proud of their Culture except White Europeans..

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  38. hj (7,062 comments) says:

    mikenmild

    hj
    It wasn’t just a claim: the site’s tagline is ‘White Identity, Interests and Culture. It’s a pile of garbage.
    …………
    Are you saying there is no such thing as ‘White Identity, Interests and Culture”
    if not the concept of “white privelege’ and etc are garbage also.

    “It’s a pile of garbage”
    That’s the fallacy of composition. Even the The white groups who marched in Christchurch recently had a tidy message that contained valid (at least debatable) points.

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  39. mikenmild (11,662 comments) says:

    ‘White’ culture is endlessly celebrated and many members of it are tremendously threatened even by the idea that other cultures could find a place here too. If you care to scan the articles on The Occidental Observer you will find it to be a steaming pool of racist excrement.
    Personally, I’m celebrating white culture today by eating Easter eggs and going to the ballet.

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  40. Viking2 (11,553 comments) says:

    Well Coddington is a journo so what do you expect. Right wing. Never in a month of Sundays.

    Stupid wench.

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  41. mikenmild (11,662 comments) says:

    dirty harry: ‘The stupid woman. Get back in the kitchen.’
    Viking 2: ‘Stupid wench’
    Seems Don Brash is not the only misogynist around…

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  42. Viking2 (11,553 comments) says:

    hj (5,680 comments) says:
    April 20th, 2014 at 8:54 am

    duggledog (1,109 comments) says:
    The generation who have recently bought houses they can’t afford in Auckland and are setting themselves up to have families etc will have to learn the hard way unfortunately.
    ……..
    I know a couple in Chch who recently paid 450,000 for a 1970′s 2 br unit of about 5. It had a strange smell so I hope it wasn’t a P lab. They were desperate as they were renting and had to move out for EQC and if they moved back in the landlords were going Max Market. People can’t see an end in sight, national is in denial blaming land supply and labour/Green are happy that hordes more will come to gain a claim to the NZ landmass.
    ==============================

    Why would they do that?
    there are dozens of places you can buy a house for way les money and unless they sell that one within a year or so they will be under water.
    Now I know they need a house but lets be brutal here. Christchurch is fucked for at least 10 years but like some many people with addictions the addicts fail to reason and leave the god forsaken hole. There are jobs elsewhere.
    The happiest people I meet in Tga are those that have quit CHCH. They get to live again.

    Staying in CHCH is masochistic.

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  43. Viking2 (11,553 comments) says:

    State Services Minister Jonathan Coleman says he is not happy about a cash bonus for unionised parliamentary staff, but can do nothing about it.

    The Herald on Sunday reported last week the agency in charge of parliamentary staff had agreed to union members receiving a one-off $1000 bonus – double the amount for non-union members. This was despite John Key’s National Party previously calling such deals discriminatory.

    The Herald on Sunday understands the party was horrified to read about the bonus in the newspaper, and caucus agreed Coleman should make sure either every worker received $1000, or no one did.
    =======================
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11241050

    So their no surprises policy doesn’t apply to the CEO’s who allowed this to be negotiated and included.
    Their answer is to give everyone money.
    No fucking wonder we are going broke.
    Useless bastards.

    They should sack the CEO’s who allowed this happen. don’t give a shit how valuable they think they are.

    Troughing arsewipes.

    Mind you if coleman had any guts he would make being a member a sin.

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  44. mikenmild (11,662 comments) says:

    What’s so wrong about a union negotiating a better deal for its members than those who choose not to join? Should the non-members automatically enjoy any benefits the union secures?

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  45. stephieboy (3,379 comments) says:

    dirty harry,

    Wakey ?, oh the deep irony.

    From Boris Pasternak ‘s Mary Magdalene,

    People clean their homes before the feast.
    Stepping from the bustle of the street
    I go down before Thee on my knees
    And anoint with myrrh Thy holy feet.

    Groping round, I cannot find the shoes
    For the tears that well up with my sighs.
    My impatient tresses, breaking loose,
    Like a pall hang thick before my eyes.

    I take up Thy feet onto my lap,
    Wash them clean with hot tears from my eyes,
    In my hair Thy precious feet I wrap,
    And my string of pearls around them tie.

    I now see the future in detail,
    As if it were stopped in flight by Thee.
    Like a raving sibyl, I could tell
    What will happen, how it will all be.

    In the temple, veils will fall tomorrow,
    We shall form a frightened group apart,
    And the earth will shake-perhaps from sorrow
    And from pity for my tortured heart.

    Troops will then reform and march away
    To the thud of hoofs and heavy tread,
    And the cross will reach towards the sky
    Like a water-spout above our heads.

    By the cross, I’ll fall down on the ground,
    I shall bite my lips till I draw blood.
    On the cross, your arms will be spread out-
    Wide enough to hug the whole wide world.

    Who’s this for, this glory and this strife?
    Who’s this for, this torment and this might?
    Are there enough souls on earth, and lives?
    Are there enough cities, dales and heights?

    But three days-such days and nights will pass-
    They will fill me with such crushing dread
    That I’ll see the joyous truth, at last:
    I shall know Christ will rise from the dead.

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  46. ShawnLH (5,661 comments) says:

    CHRIST HAS RISEN! HE HAS RISEN INDEED! ALLELUIA! :)

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  47. Chuck Bird (4,923 comments) says:

    “Deborah Coddington dishes the dirt on Don Brash:”

    Thanks for pointing that out mikenmild.

    I clearly remember talking to that stupid woman at the ACT conference in Wellington shortly after Don became leader. I expressed concern that ACT would lose a lot of votes because of this. The arrogant cow rudely dismissed my viewpoint which turned out to be correct.

    I am amazed that she is considered a political commentator. I heard her on talkback she did even have even a rough idea what percentage of the vote a party would need to bring in an extra MP. That did not stop her from making a wild stab.

    I do not know why ACT decided to have such a stupid woman as an MP when she disagreed with most of ACT’s policy at the time. The only thing she supported was homosexual demand which certainly was not ACT policy at the time.

    She should be considered an embarrassment to all intelligent women.

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  48. hj (7,062 comments) says:

    White’ culture is endlessly celebrated and many members of it are tremendously threatened even by the idea that other cultures could find a place here too. If you care to scan the articles on The Occidental Observer you will find it to be a steaming pool of racist excrement
    ….
    sounds like you are throwing your toys out of the cot.

    http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/ is about counter argument. Are you saying there shouldn’t be a site to argue against mass migration, multi culturalism etc?

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  49. ShawnLH (5,661 comments) says:

    “Are you saying there is no such thing as ‘White Identity, Interests and Culture””

    There may well be in theory. However the web site in question is just a White Supremacist propaganda site, with the usual obsession with the supposed evil of Jewish people, which, if I were white, I would not want representing my identity, interests and culture.

    “Are you saying there shouldn’t be a site to argue against mass migration, multi culturalism etc?”

    Would you want those concerns being associated with neo-Nazism? That would not help your cause.

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  50. eszett (2,426 comments) says:

    ShawnLH (1,883 comments) says:
    April 20th, 2014 at 10:38 am
    CHRIST HAS RISEN! HE HAS RISEN INDEED! ALLELUIA!

    Sharing your morning erection with us, Shawn? ;-)
    Congratulations. Let’s hope you put it to good use.

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  51. ShawnLH (5,661 comments) says:

    “Well Coddington is a journo so what do you expect. Right wing. Never in a month of Sundays.”

    She was for a while part of the Libertarianz and a contributor to the ‘Free Radical.’ That’s pretty right wing. I have no idea what she believes now.

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  52. hj (7,062 comments) says:

    @ Viking2

    a drive through Shirley and Dallington is depressing. There’s nothing nice about the architecture and it is aging while it is quite obvious the inhabitants can’t afford to do up their houses.
    Elites like to pigeon hole into A:B rich:poor but they need to come and look at the scale of the resources needed to improve peoples living situation.

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  53. Jack5 (5,145 comments) says:

    Re Chuck bird on Jack Tame at 8.25.

    What is the story with Tame? He seems to pop up all over the place for TVNZ to read summaries of stories available from the international news agencies and to narrate to clips from the video equivalents.

    It’s similar to sending the woman from London to Kiev. Was she really there when she appeared against a background of the city reading what we had read hours earlier on the internet? Is TVNZ really flying her and technicians to Kiev, when it could just superimpose her on a Kiev background?

    TVNZ regards us viewers as fuckwits if it thinks this sort of video fools us that TVNZ is an international network, a mini-CNN or mini-BBC or mini-Al Jazeera. This is Jack Tame from New York, this is X from Kiev …. and we give a stuff?

    Back to Tame. He’s never come across as a well informed commentator on political affairs. As Kiwi old timers might say, Tame’s views on Al Qaeda terrorists and drones aren’t worth a nob of rabbit shit.

    If Tame has any chance at all of developing into an Alistair Cook type pundit, he had better spend a helluva lot of time studying and reading. Unfortunately, there will be no time for that if he continues flitting from international TV assignment to international TV assignment, and in between jabbers on talk radio.

    What’s it to be Jack Tame? A slog to reputation, or cantering on to empty celebrity?

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  54. lilman (965 comments) says:

    Are you saying that a polly has a drinking problem?If so,why has no reporter asked how her drinking has impacted her work?
    Seems reasonable to me.

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  55. ShawnLH (5,661 comments) says:

    “Jack Tame is concerned that the Kiwi mixing with terrorist did not get a fair trial.”

    What an idiot. It’s a WAR.

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  56. stephieboy (3,379 comments) says:

    longknives,

    *It intrigues me that every Ethnic group on the planet is allowed to be proud of their Culture except White Europeans..”

    The trouble is its all about perceptions and many posters here don’t instill one with confidence . The term White Europeans or White Culture is often used pejoratively in this context towards other cultures that can lead to this kind of thing,

    http://www.google.co.nz/search?q=aryan+nation&client=safari&sa=X&rls=en&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&ei=jAhTU_f0HszGlAWG9YGABQ&ved=0CEsQsAQ&biw=167

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  57. publicwatchdog (2,797 comments) says:

    Seen this article Kiwibloggers?

    http://laudafinem.com/2014/04/19/why-cant-new-zealand-have-honest-and-capable-politicians-is-nz-in-need-of-an-icac/

    NSW Premier Barry O’Farrelly had to resign over his $3000 bottle of wine ‘brainfade’.

    The difference between NZ and NSW is that NSW has an INDEPENDENT COMMISSION AGAINST CORRUPTION (ICAC).

    High time for an NZ INDEPENDENT COMMISSION AGAINST CORRUPTION (ICAC)?

    I think so.

    Some of us have been advocating this for some time:

    http://www.pennybright4mayor.org.nz/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/ANTI-CORRUPTION-WHITE-COLLAR-CRIME-CORPORATE-WELFARE-ACTION-PLAN-Ak-Mayoral-campaign-19-July-2013-2.pdf

    Seen this?

    http://www.transparency.net.nz/

    Penny Bright

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  58. kowtow (8,733 comments) says:

    It’s even more of a worry that the likes of Jack Lame ,who looks like he hasn’t even started to shave, can be considered a “leading journalist”, here in Aotearoa,formerly New Zealand.

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  59. wf (464 comments) says:

    And he wasn’t JUST a Kiwi ‘mixing with terrorists.’ He was actively involved with known Al Quaeda operatives and caught the consequences.
    There is not need for us to know his former civilian name. This obsession with knowing everyone’s name is rubbish and will not add to the sum of worthwhile knowledge.

    Chinese border officials come to mind.

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  60. ShawnLH (5,661 comments) says:

    Penny, corruption is failing to pay your rates. That’s stealing from other ratepayers.

    Stop bludging off ratepayers and then hypocritically talking about crime and corruption. You have no moral credibility.

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  61. hj (7,062 comments) says:

    ShawnLH (1,887 comments) says:
    April 20th, 2014 at 10:44 am

    “Are you saying there is no such thing as ‘White Identity, Interests and Culture””

    There may well be in theory. However the web site in question is just a White Supremacist propaganda site, with the usual obsession with the supposed evil of Jewish people, which, if I were white, I would not want representing my identity, interests and culture.
    ….
    Fallacy of composition again. Denise Roche used the same dismissive on NZCPR “some outfit” and “climate change denial”
    =======
    “Are you saying there shouldn’t be a site to argue against mass migration, multi culturalism etc?”

    Would you want those concerns being associated with neo-Nazism? That would not help your cause.
    ……
    So far I have seen an associating of Jewish interests to immigration: a jewish conspiaracy claim. Why can’t he be free in his attempt to make a case? No one need believe it. Peoples interests don’t necessarily coincide and their identity colours their allegiances.
    They seem to base their analysis more on evolutionary psychology than the out dated sociology.

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  62. ShawnLH (5,661 comments) says:

    “Fallacy of composition again.”

    Rubbish. The site is White Supremacist. That’s not an ad hominem, it’s a statement of fact.

    “Why can’t he be free in his attempt to make a case.”

    He is, just as others are free to point out his bigotry, and the bigotry of the sites he uses as sources.

    That said, if I see some guy in a white sheet burning a cross, I’m not likely to take anything he says seriously.

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  63. wf (464 comments) says:

    And while I’m about it, it’s time to get Christchurch sorted out.

    Red zone all the areas which are now known to be flood zones after a few day’s rain, and at high tide. Until the next earthquake comes and raises the ground again that’s the way it’s going to be.

    Just do it.

    Sorry folks.

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  64. ShawnLH (5,661 comments) says:

    “They seem to base their analysis more on evolutionary psychology”

    It’s a reboot of the “evolutionary biology” that the Nazi’s used, designed to come to the same conclusion: Jews are bad people.

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  65. Scott Chris (6,176 comments) says:

    CHRIST HAS RISEN! HE HAS RISEN INDEED! ALLELUIA! :)

    My bread has risen. You could call me a happy yeaster. :mrgreen:

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  66. wat dabney (3,805 comments) says:

    Be careful what you wish for Penny.

    A properly-functioning anti-corruption commission would shut down the Labour Party on day one.

    It is, after all, nothing but a vehicle to legalise the plundering of the workers by an organised minority.

    They all belong in prison.

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  67. hj (7,062 comments) says:

    3.4.2
    Large population increase?

    In theory, a high rate of immigration over an extended period could greatly increase
    New Zealand’s population, allowing productivity gains from economies of scale, both from
    conventional sources and the particular effects identified by economic geographers.
    However, the 2025 Taskforce, set up to provide advice to the government on how to close
    the income gap with Australia, did not favour greatly expanding immigration and
    68
    considered this approach unrealistic and potentially “enormously disruptive”.
    If in New Zealand’s situation a much larger population would greatly improve viability,
    69
    growth and resilience, disruption may be worth the cost. A larger population is
    technically feasible; New Zealand has similar land area to countries with much larger
    populations (for example, the United Kingdom or Japan). The historical growth of Australia
    over the 19 th century, or California during the 20 th century provide precedents for large
    population increases.
    However, just because greatly increasing population is feasible does not mean it is a wise
    strategy. While there is clear evidence that within countries, large urban agglomerations
    70
    have higher incomes and productivity, there is no such evidence across countries
    (bigger, more densely-populated countries are not richer than smaller countries with more
    71
    scattered populations). The observation that the very highest productivity is found in
    large urban areas producing knowledge-based products does not mean all societies can
    or should attempt to recreate the San Francisco Bay Area or London. When what is now
    the United States rust belt was the global productivity leader, many other regions
    improved their wellbeing through industrial development on a less extensive and less
    productive scale. Today New Zealand or other productivity “followers” may be able to
    materially improve productivity and living standards from current levels without adopting a
    large scale agglomeration strategy. Silicon Valley also illustrates the limitations of such
    strategies; notwithstanding the presence of Silicon Valley, the State of California has
    serious economic and fiscal problems. Similarly, Israel has a thriving innovative hi-tech
    sector, similar population, and comparable overall productivity to New Zealand.
    To make a judgment on whether a large increase in population is necessary or wise more
    information would be required on both costs (including environmental, social, and cultural
    costs) and benefits. Two key questions are how large the increase would need to be to
    realise the benefits, and to what extent New Zealand’s level of geographic isolation would
    continue to act as a brake on performance even with a large population.

    Migration and Macroeconomic
    Performance in New Zealand:
    Theory and Evidence
    Julie Fry
    New Zealand Treasury Working Paper 14/10
    April 2014

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  68. publicwatchdog (2,797 comments) says:

    Sh(yawn) – care to provide some STATUTORY backup for your rather extraordinary claim?

    “Penny, corruption is failing to pay your rates. That’s stealing from other ratepayers.

    Stop bludging off ratepayers and then hypocritically talking about crime and corruption. You have no moral credibility.”

    Otherwise, in my considered opinion, it is YOU who has no credibility, moral or otherwise.

    When you’re ready ……………:)

    Also – please be reminded that I polled 4th in the 2013 Auckland mayoral campaign with nearly 12,000 votes, against corrupt corporate control of the Auckland region, and being very TRANSPARENT about my refusal to pay rates and the reasons for so doing.

    How many votes did you get Sh(yawn)?

    You don’t even put your name to your posts, do you, anonymous GUTLESS Sh (YAWN)?

    Meant of course in a caring way ;)

    Kind regards,

    Penny Bright

    http://www.pennybright4mayor.org.nz

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  69. hj (7,062 comments) says:

    ShawnLH (1,890 comments) says:
    April 20th, 2014 at 11:54 am

    “Fallacy of composition again.”

    Rubbish. The site is White Supremacist. That’s not an ad hominem, it’s a statement of fact.
    …………

    White supremacy is the belief, or promotion of the belief, that white people are superior to people of other racial backgrounds and that therefore whites should politically, economically and socially dominate non-whites. The term is also typically used to describe a political ideology that perpetuates and maintains the social, political, historical and/or industrial dominance of whites.[1] Different forms of white supremacy have different conceptions of who is considered white, and different white supremacists identify various racial and cultural groups as their primary enemy.[2]

    In the context of people in western countries opposing immigration, they are defending there identity and right to the resources of the nation.
    Take NZ

    In the late 19 th century and early 20 th century, immigration to New Zealand could be seen
    as reflecting a favourable shock to the tradable sector. Opening up new lands to
    production, falling transport costs, refrigerated shipping combined to lift the population
    capacity of New Zealand while still offering high wages and high rates of return.
    By the middle of the 20 th century, New Zealand was settled and producing, and
    technological change in the key export sectors was no longer as rapid (relative to other
    producers). The factor price equalisation justification for strong population growth had
    dissipated, yet population growth remained high. Across the OECD, there is some
    evidence that rapid population growth in post-war advanced countries was associated with
    143
    an apparent cost to per capita growth rates.

    You have to judge the posts in Occidental Observer on a case by case basis as to whether (if) the qualify as white supremist I suggest you are trying to silence the messenger.

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  70. stephieboy (3,379 comments) says:

    Eugenetics and Evolutionary biology were ideas used by the Nazis and perverted by them in their delusory goals of a perfect master race . it began in 1933 when sterilization of mental defectives and mentally ill became possible . It culminated in the T4 gassing program of mentally disabled etc.

    Their ideas were also used to rationalize the murder of Jews and the treatment of other ” sub humans ” ( Untermensch ) like Slavs – Poles and Russians.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/0/23183272

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  71. kowtow (8,733 comments) says:

    Home brewers are the true happy yeasters.

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  72. duggledog (1,582 comments) says:

    Jack5 re Jack Tame –

    Don’t expect him to go anywhere soon. He’s been given the foreign correspondence gig because he has been earmarked for greater things; you will see him reading the news as a permanent gig before too long, this I can guarantee you. Everyone does the foreign correspondent thing with the end game being a shot at that most coveted, easy, overpaid gig in telly – One News anchor.

    TVNZ top brass will have focus-grouped him and the results will be that he is articulate, charming for the Womans day readers and a total six foot hottie for their mainly female audience (guys have a look at TV1’s schedule and see if there’s anything on there you would seriously watch). Politics will no doubt match the organisation’s internal preference – let’s just say he wouldn’t have been rooting for the Republican candidate. So he’s in with a grin because that’s all that really matters.

    Tim Wilson and that square jawed guy who went back to the late news will be gutted, but there can be only One.

    Cheers

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  73. ShawnLH (5,661 comments) says:

    “are to provide some STATUTORY backup for your rather extraordinary claim?”

    You are not paying your rates. Stop stealing from other ratepayers.

    “please be reminded that I polled 4th in the 2013 Auckland mayoral campaign with nearly 12,000 votes,”

    Big whoop. Considering the size of Auckland’s population, that’s a pathetic result.

    “You don’t even put your name to your posts,”

    Shawn IS my name you silly ditz.

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  74. Apollonius (1 comment) says:

    Written the speech yet, Penny?

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  75. ShawnLH (5,661 comments) says:

    “You have to judge the posts in Occidental Observer on a case by case basis as to whether (if) the qualify as white supremist I suggest you are trying to silence the messenger.”

    Bollocks hj. That’s like saying I have to take every post at Stormfront on a case by case basis.

    Crap. If people post at a White Supremacist web site that alone is reason to presume the worst.

    “I suggest you are trying to silence the messenger.”

    Damn straight. Silencing Jew haters is a good thing.

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  76. duggledog (1,582 comments) says:

    And it won’t be long for the little lady that co-anchors with Hosking. I feel sorry for her, Hosking would have had a quiet word with the CEO from the get-go and made it crystal clear the new show would be Holmes-esque, with him having the final say and who wouldn’t, being surrounded by clowns?

    Which it could have been from the start, if they’d kept Henry on and set him loose in that slot. I’d love to know who the genius was that dreamed up the comedy of errors that was Seven Sharp. They should never work in the media business again, but this being New Zealand they will not only get a pay rise, they will get promotion as well.

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  77. hj (7,062 comments) says:

    duggledog
    Everyone does the foreign correspondent thing with the end game being a shot at that most coveted, easy, overpaid gig in telly
    ….
    A trendy lefty

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  78. kowtow (8,733 comments) says:

    Cannabis,the wonder herb the media and those who wish to undermine our productive society are so hard at work promoting.Including Obummer and his Attorney General.

    Wasn’t long before the gloss ran off.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/10775865/Cannabis-opponents-call-for-restrictions-on-edibles-after-two-deaths.html

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  79. stephieboy (3,379 comments) says:

    Shawn L H, I dont think you can ever silence Jew haters. We can put up with their delusory and inane posts and links.
    But we don’t have to put up with , of course, their bullets , boots and fists.

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  80. ShawnLH (5,661 comments) says:

    Good news for Easter Sunday! :)

    China on course to become ‘world’s most Christian nation’ within 15 years.

    “Christian congregations in particular have skyrocketed since churches began reopening when Chairman Mao’s death in 1976 signalled the end of the Cultural Revolution.

    Less than four decades later, some believe China is now poised to become not just the world’s number one economy but also its most numerous Christian nation.

    “By my calculations China is destined to become the largest Christian country in the world very soon,” said Fenggang Yang, a professor of sociology at Purdue University and author of Religion in China: Survival and Revival under Communist Rule. “It is going to be less than a generation. Not many people are prepared for this dramatic change.”

    China’s Protestant community, which had just one million members in 1949, has already overtaken those of countries more commonly associated with an evangelical boom. In 2010 there were more than 58 million Protestants in China compared to 40 million in Brazil and 36 million in South Africa, according to the Pew Research Centre’s Forum on Religion and Public Life.”

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/10776023/China-on-course-to-become-worlds-most-Christian-nation-within-15-years.html

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  81. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    Penny, corruption is failing to pay your rates. That’s stealing from other ratepayers.

    Stop making up your own definitions of words, asshole.

    Stop bludging off ratepayers and then hypocritically talking about crime and corruption. You have no moral credibility.

    Such irony, from Kiwiblogs most prolific liar.

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  82. wat dabney (3,805 comments) says:

    Good news for Easter Sunday!

    http://i.imgur.com/mHBPhwG.jpg

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  83. wat dabney (3,805 comments) says:

    kowtow,

    It’s not at all clear what point you’re making with the cannabis thing.

    Perhaps you could point-out cannabis on this mortality chart for us?

    http://www.csdp.org/publicservice/causes.htm

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  84. ShawnLH (5,661 comments) says:

    Wow, that attempt was lame even for you wat! :)

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  85. wat dabney (3,805 comments) says:

    What attempt Shawn? What are you talking about?

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  86. Chuck Bird (4,923 comments) says:

    “a total six foot hottie for their mainly female audience”

    I doubt if he is interested in women. He seems obsessed with homosexual issues.

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  87. ShawnLH (5,661 comments) says:

    http://i.imgur.com/mHBPhwG.jpg

    That one wat.

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  88. wat dabney (3,805 comments) says:

    Shawn, you do realise that calling something “lame” doesn’t actually amount to a refutation?

    It is obviously and necessarily the case that the “death” (actually amounting to a nice nap) of the Jesus character in the story was entirely superfluous. It didn’t have to happen in order to effect change. It was simply a piece of theatre.

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  89. Andrei (2,668 comments) says:

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  90. ShawnLH (5,661 comments) says:

    “Shawn, you do realise that calling something “lame” doesn’t actually amount to a refutation?”

    So? It was still lame.

    “It is obviously and necessarily the case that the “death” (actually amounting to a nice nap) of the Jesus character in the story was entirely superfluous. It didn’t have to happen in order to effect change.”

    Yes, it did. All sins are sins against God, so only God can ultimately forgive them. But only after the debt our sins occur was paid for. God did this Himself, by taking upon Himself the consequences of our rebellion, thus freeing us from the penalty for sin.

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  91. mikenmild (11,662 comments) says:

    Our Pasta, Who “Arghh” in the colander
    Swallowed be thy sauce
    Thy serving come
    Thy food be yum
    On forks as they are on spoons
    Give us this day our daily sauce
    And forgive our mess
    As we forgive those who mess against us
    And lead us not into Hell
    But deliver us some pizza
    For thine is the noodles, the sauce and the meatballs
    Ramen

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  92. wat dabney (3,805 comments) says:

    Yes, it did [have to happen.] All sins are sins against God, so only God can ultimately forgive them. But only after the debt our sins occur was paid for. God did this Himself, by taking upon Himself the consequences of our rebellion, thus freeing us from the penalty for sin.

    Or Yahweh could have just said “fuhgeddaboudit.”

    That’s the point.

    If Yawheh was compelled to act out this little drama in order to achieve the sitation he desired then he is not omnipotent: some other, higher, deity must have set the condition. Yahweh was jumping through hoops not of his own choosing. Is that what you’re saying?

    On the other hand, if Yahweh wasn’t compelled to perform this little melodrama to effect the change he wanted then it was, by definition, pure drama-queen theatre.

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  93. SGA (1,123 comments) says:

    @mikenmild at 1:14 pm

    Our Pasta, …

    Thanks – forgot the supermarket was closed today. Pasta to the rescue.

    @ShawnLH
    Another day of not posting about religion unless taunted by atheists, I notice.

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  94. wat dabney (3,805 comments) says:

    Pasta to the rescue.

    And there’s you complaining about religious posts.

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  95. SGA (1,123 comments) says:

    @wat dabney at 1:23 pm
    droll – I like it :-)

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  96. hj (7,062 comments) says:

    stephieboy (1,126 comments) says:
    April 20th, 2014 at 12:16 pm

    Eugenetics and Evolutionary biology were ideas used by the Nazis and perverted by them in their delusory goals of a perfect master race .
    …….
    How the Nazis *undermined* eugenics -your link. In other words they missused eugenics.

    As for evolutionary psychology it isn’t going away

    Evolutionary psychologists argue that much of human behavior is the output of psychological adaptations that evolved to solve recurrent problems in human ancestral environments.[1]

    The adaptationist approach is steadily increasing as an influence in the general field of psychology.[2

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_psychology#cite_note-moralanimal-2

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  97. kowtow (8,733 comments) says:

    SGA would like it.

    Another obsessed bigot unhappy that the Christian world rejoices today.

    Sad,angry, lonely recluses reduced to pathetic snide remarks.

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  98. wat dabney (3,805 comments) says:

    Kowtow,

    Perhaps you should review your own “contributions”?

    An almost unparalleled litany of sad, angry and pathetic snide remarks.

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  99. mikenmild (11,662 comments) says:

    Don’t overrate him, wat.

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  100. Fletch (6,486 comments) says:

    A new study came out a few days ago about the harmful effects of using pot, even recreationally.

    Every day, the push toward national legalization of marijuana seems more and more inevitable. As more and more politicians and noted individuals come out in favor of legalizing or at least decriminalizing different amounts of pot, the mainstream acceptance of the recreational use of the drug seems like a bygone conclusion. But before we can talk about legalization, have we fully understood the health effects of marijuana?

    According to a new study published in the Journal of Neuroscience, researchers from Harvard and Northwestern studied the brains of 18- to 25-year-olds, half of whom smoked pot recreationally and half of whom didn’t. What they found was rather shocking: Even those who only smoked few times a week had significant brain abnormalities in the areas that control emotion and motivation.

    “There is this general perspective out there that using marijuana recreationally is not a problem — that it is a safe drug,” said Anne Blood, a co-author of the study. “We are seeing that this is not the case.”

    http://www.policymic.com/articles/87743/harvard-scientists-studied-the-brains-of-pot-smokers-and-the-results-don-t-look-good?utm_source=policymicFB&utm_medium=main&utm_campaign=social

    http://thechart.blogs.cnn.com/2014/04/16/casual-marijuana-use-may-damage-your-brain/comment-page-8/

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  101. mikenmild (11,662 comments) says:

    Any harm caused by marijuana should be a risk that any adult is free to take. There should be no legal distinctions between psychoactive substances.

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  102. Grant (444 comments) says:

    Was just reading Chris Trotter’s latest piece over at The Daily Blog and couldn’t help being struck by this sentence:

    “And sorely needed. Because, if that David Cunliffe is not found – and soon – the pallid and oh-so-timid fellow currently masquerading as the leader of the Opposition is going to lose the election. Not just for Labour, the Greens and Mana, but for every other New Zealander seeking a radical change in their country’s direction.”

    It dawned on me that perhaps there aren’t nearly as many “New Zealanders seeking a radical change in their country’s direction”, as Mr Trotter and the rest of them think there is. I, for one don’t want any radical change, especially when the details of said “radical change” are not particularly clear.

    But if that “radical change” is ,as I suspect, an increase in taxes, a host of stultifying legislation based on climate change, an utter change in the nation’s leadership structure, (ie a presidential republic), hate speech laws, more government intrusion into private activities, and the establishment of a political class that will be almost be impossible to remove, then I’m sure I wont be alone in giving the blue corner two ticks in September.
    The lefty commentariat just don’t seem to understand that most New Zealanders, as the pollsters tell it, can see that no good can come of their flavour of socialism.
    G

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  103. dirty harry (513 comments) says:

    http://1law4all.kiwi.nz/2014/04/20/not-your-usual-political-party/

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  104. nasska (11,788 comments) says:

    Finally proof of what was obvious to most of us…a recent study confirms that being Christian harms your brain:

    ….”A study that appears to have received virtually no attention since its appearance online last year suggests the stress of being Catholic or a “born-again” Protestant takes a toll by causing a quicker atrophy of one part of the brain.”….

    Sorry Fletch, kowtow & Shawn but it wasn’t standing downwind from a burning joint that fried your minds….it was the Godbotherering. :)

    Ref: http://www.wnd.com/2012/03/study-links-being-born-again-to-brain-atrophy/

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  105. Nostradamus (3,433 comments) says:

    Mikenmild:

    Any harm caused by marijuana should be a risk that any adult is free to take.

    There’s action (risky behaviour) and consequences (at the risk-taker’s own risk) – you missed out the consequences.

    Or, putting it another way, how do we differentiate between risky behaviour that society should pay for (if things go terribly wrong for the risk-taker) and risky behaviour that society doesn’t pay for (because the consequences are the risk-taker’s sole responsibility)?

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  106. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    The risk has to be placed in context.
    Alcohol is legal and its effects should be the bench mark for harm

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  107. hj (7,062 comments) says:

    If drugs were legalised then (perhaps) something like Singapore had(?) would do the trick; I recall they would lock addicts up to undergo cold turkey. Why should they be given a softly -softly treatment if cold turkey does no harm but provides a biological feed back? In other words use drugs but don’t claim support and if you become a cost: cold turkey.

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  108. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    http://1law4all.kiwi.nz/2014/04/20/not-your-usual-political-party/

    “Our members are from all over New Zealand, from all parts of the political spectrum. To keep faith with all of them, our voting position in parliament (thinking positively!) will be based on racial and legal equality and democracy. Our candidates will not be allowed conscience votes.”

    In other word in their world everyone suffers the same legal disability.

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  109. stephieboy (3,379 comments) says:

    Kevin Mc Donald, Evolutionary Biologist and anti Semitism . One of his theories that Jews have evolved as an evolutionary strategy, genetically driven to destroy Western values and traditions.,

    http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-files/profiles/kevin-macdonald

    Surely a an abuse of a theory that like eugenics can be readily debased.

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  110. publicwatchdog (2,797 comments) says:

    Remember THIS Kiwibloggers?

    Minister for Corruption (sorry – Minister for Justice) Judith Collins promised an ‘Organised Crime and Anti-Corruption Legislation Bill’.

    Hardly surprising that this ‘Organised Crime and Anti-Corruption Legislation Bill’. has yet to surface in the Parliamentary legislative ‘sausage machine’?

    ___________________________________________________________________________________________________

    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA1310/S00301/bill-supports-zero-tolerance-for-organised-crime.htm

    Minister of Justice

    18 October 2013 Media Statement

    Bill supports zero-tolerance for organised crime

    Justice Minister Judith Collins says the Government’s comprehensive approach to fighting all forms of organised crime will help safeguard New Zealand’s economy, international reputation and public safety.

    This month a number of international bodies are evaluating New Zealand’s compliance with international standards related to financial crimes – including the OECD, which will report on New Zealand’s compliance with an international convention to combat bribery of foreign public officials.

    “I welcome the release of these reports.

    This Government takes all forms of organised crime and corruption very seriously,” Ms Collins says.

    _______________________________________________________________________________________________

    http://www.3news.co.nz/New-laws-to-fight-organised-crime/tabid/1607/articleID/317781/Default.aspx
    New laws to fight organised crime
    Friday 18 Oct 2013 10:33a.m.

    The Government will bring in a bill before the end of the year to strengthen laws against money laundering, identity theft, human trafficking and corruption.

    Justice Minister Judith Collins says she intends to have a comprehensive set of laws in place to fight all forms of organised crime.

    “It’s important to consider bribery and corruption within the big picture of organised crime, which undermines public safety, national security, economic development and good governance,” she said today.

    “This bill will help ensure New Zealand maintains its reputation as a responsible international citizen and that our domestic law enforcement agencies have the tolls they need to fight all forms of organised crime.”
    _________________________________________________________________________________________________

    So WHERE’S Minister for Corruption (sorry – Minister for Justice) Judith Collin’s Organised Crime and Anti-Corruption Legislation Bill?

    I checked today on the NZ Parliamentary website:

    http://www.parliament.nz/en-nz/pb/legislation/bills/?Criteria.Keyword=Organised+Crime+and+Anti-Corruption+Legislation+Bill%2C&Criteria.Timeframe=&Criteria.Parliament=-1&Criteria.DocumentType=&Criteria.Status=&Search=Go

    Legislation
    Bills
    This section lists bills before the House and its committees, and provides access to more detailed information about each one. You will also find the schedule of divided bills and progress of legislationhere. To find out more about bills before select committees, see the committee business summary.

    Close Bills search
    Keyword

    Date

    Parliament

    Document type

    Status

    No documents were found
    _________________________________________________________________________________________________

    Oh dear – Minister for Corruption (oops! Justice – yeah right) Judith Collins’ Organised Crime and Anti-Corruption Legislation Bill is NOWHERE to be found.

    Talk about the corrupt fox in charge of the chook house?

    Again – file under ‘You Couldn’t Make This Sh*t Up’?

    Penny Bright

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  111. lilman (965 comments) says:

    Penny your corrupt by stealing services and not paying for them.
    Lair liar Penny

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  112. big bruv (14,132 comments) says:

    Well said lilman, is there anything more corrupt than a thief?

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  113. Nostradamus (3,433 comments) says:

    Posted in the public interest:

    What happens when a homeowner refuses to pay rates?

    The Government grants local authorities the power to assess, levy, and collect rates. Council authorities can take a homeowner to court if a person repeatedly refuses to pay outstanding rates. A house sale is used only when, despite having gone through the legal process, a ratepayer still fails or refuses to pay the outstanding rates. The court – not the local authority – conducts the house sale. When a property is sold, the proceeds of the sale are used to pay the outstanding rates on the property plus legal costs and court fees. Any balance is returned to the ratepayer.

    Also posted in the public interest:

    Councils have powers under which banks can increase debtors’ mortgage payments to pay their rates bills or they can apply to the courts to have arrears paid from deductions to ratepayers’ salaries.

    Auckland Council uses these powers thousands of times a year, but Bright owns her own home without a mortgage, and is not salaried, and is therefore not susceptible to either tactic.

    There are two other options for the council, but despite Bright’s non-payment, the council has not used either during the long standoff: it could seek a court order to have property seized and auctioned or it could seek a “writ of sale” allowing it to conduct a mortgagee sale. These are options available to any creditor owed money by an asset-rich debtor who is unwilling to pay up.

    The council said it had obtained court orders to compel Bright to pay, and the rates debts had been secured by lodging charging orders against her property so she couldn’t sell it until the debts were paid.

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  114. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    Justice Minister Judith Collins says she intends to have a comprehensive set of laws in place to fight all forms of organised crime.

    Sounds good in theory by the reality is that she is in no position to change the system she works under.

    Getting rid of corruption in this country involves fundamental constitutional reform, it isn’t a problem that you can just legislate your way out of.

    A good first step towards removing corruption in this country would be recognizing due process and the rule of law.

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  115. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    Penny your corrupt by stealing services and not paying for them.

    You can’t steal a service, idiot.

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  116. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    The Government grants local authorities the power to assess, levy, and collect rates. Council authorities can take a homeowner to court if a person repeatedly refuses to pay outstanding rates.

    So how do you propose to prove that Penny is a person?

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  117. Nostradamus (3,433 comments) says:

    So how do you propose to prove that Penny is a person?

    Good grief!

    Try reading the Oxford Dictionary:

    person
    Pronunciation: /ˈpəːs(ə)n

    noun (plural people or persons)
    1A human being regarded as an individual:
    ‘the porter was the last person to see her prior to her disappearance’
    ‘she is a person of astonishing energy’

    1.1 (In legal or formal contexts) an unspecified individual:
    ‘each of the persons using unlawful violence is guilty of riot’
    ‘the entrance fee is £2.00 per person’

    1.2 [with modifier] An individual characterized by a preference or liking for a specified thing:
    ‘she’s not a cat person’

    1.3A character in a play or story:
    ‘his previous roles in the person of a fallible cop’

    1.4 An individual’s body:
    ‘I would have publicity photographs on my person at all times’

    1.5 • dated (Especially in legal contexts) used euphemistically to refer to a man’s genitals

    Take your pick, UglyTruth. Personally, I’d suggest going with 1.1 rather than 1.5…

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  118. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    Take your pick, UglyTruth. Personally, I’d suggest going with 1.1

    person: A man considered according to the rank he holds in society, with all the rights to which the place he holds entitles him, and the duties which it imposes. 1 Bouv. Inst. no. 137. A human being considered as capable of having rights and or being charged with duties, while a “thing” is the object over which rights may be exercised.
    Black’s dictionary of law, 2nd edition(1910)

    Persons and people are different things. The state does not have universal power.

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  119. hj (7,062 comments) says:

    Warning White Supremist(ish)?!

    Germans have to abandon the Illusion that Germany belongs to the Germans
    Something is brewing in Europe. And even though it does so under a deceptively calm surface, the bubbling and hissing can be heard by anyone who has recognized the officially enforced credo for what it is: a destructive scheme that gives unelected bureaucrats and their shady overlords carte blanche to force an increasingly averse citizenry into abject servitude and downright ruin. The ominous noise, we have ample reason to believe, has also come to the attention of those presently in power, no matter if they are Bilderberg apologists, downright Goldman Sachs emissaries or hordes of spineless satraps who wallow in the parliamentary cream-pies like mice in a Swiss cheese.

    http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2014/04/thilo-sarrazin-an-unlikely-champion/

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  120. Nostradamus (3,433 comments) says:

    Oh I see. So, on your legal interpretation, no one (other than a presumably very narrow class of “persons” would be liable to pay rates?

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  121. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    Pretty much, but an obligation can arise when people make use of council services.

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  122. ShawnLH (5,661 comments) says:

    wat,

    “Or Yahweh could have just said “fuhgeddaboudit.”

    That’s the point.”

    It’s a bad “point.” Would you say to a rape victim, just forget about it? No. Forgiveness is a painful process. It cost’s the person doing the forgiving. It cost’s them the desire for revenge and the comfort of hate and anger.

    Forgiveness is always costly. In this case it cost Jesus the crucifixion.

    “If Yawheh was compelled to act out this little drama in order to achieve the sitation he desired then he is not omnipotent: some other, higher, deity must have set the condition.”

    He wasn’t compelled, except by His own nature. He chose this means, freely.

    “On the other hand, if Yahweh wasn’t compelled to perform this little melodrama to effect the change he wanted then it was, by definition, pure drama-queen theatre.”

    As I pointed out above, forgiveness is never mere theatre. It’s costly and painful.

    On the cross, God enters into our suffering, shares our suffering as one of us, and through that brings about redemption.

    Sorry wat, but like most of the atheist cultists here, your argument’s are lame, and expose a profound ignorance of the topic you think you know something about.

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  123. publicwatchdog (2,797 comments) says:

    What about Auckland Council’s statutory duty to comply with the Public Records Act 2005?

    Or are you bleating, SHEEPish Kiwibloggers (you know who you are) quite happy for Auckland Council to not be held accountable to the LAW?

    Kind regards,

    Penny Bright

    http://www.pennybright4mayor.org.nz

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  124. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    What about Auckland Council’s statutory duty to comply with the Public Records Act 2005?

    What statutory duty? A council isn’t a person.

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  125. ShawnLH (5,661 comments) says:

    “@ShawnLH
    Another day of not posting about religion unless taunted by atheists, I notice.”

    It’s Easter. Duh! :)

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  126. stigie (1,310 comments) says:

    Hey, lets all be corrupt then and not pay our rates. FFS !~

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  127. Nostradamus (3,433 comments) says:

    UglyTruth:

    [A]n obligation can arise when people make use of council services.

    The operative word there seems to be “use”.

    So, to take a hypothetical example, if Penny uses Auckland Council’s rubbish collection services, is she liable to pay rates?

    If your answer is no, then how (conceptually) do you differentiate between rubbish collection services and other utility services such as electricity and water?

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  128. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    On the cross, God enters into our suffering, shares our suffering as one of us, and through that brings about redemption.

    Death cult doctrine.

    The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
    Deuteronomy 24:16

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  129. ShawnLH (5,661 comments) says:

    kowtow

    “reduced to pathetic snide remarks.”

    Well, we have to be patient. Keep in mind that we are not dealing with particularly intelligent people here. The militant atheist cult on KB have very few braincells between them, so snide remarks is all they can muster. :)

    And outraged atheist trollfest in 5..4..3..2..1. :)

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  130. mandk (1,015 comments) says:

    UT: “You can’t steal a service, idiot.”

    What would you be doing if you parked in a space someone else had paid for?

    Or what about using someone else’s download data?

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  131. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    So, to take a hypothetical example, if Penny uses Auckland Council’s rubbish collection services, is she liable to pay rates?

    No, the obligation is limited to the value of the service. The liability of paying rates is a personal one, it isn’t a general remedy for an obligation.

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  132. big bruv (14,132 comments) says:

    Penny

    What this Auckland person wants is for you to play your rates and stop being a bludger.

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  133. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    What would you be doing if you parked in a space someone else had paid for?

    It depends on the circumstances. If I parked in a space after a car had pulled out and there was time left on the clock, would I owe the driver anything?

    Or what about using someone else’s download data?

    Would such usage result in their loss?

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  134. Manolo (14,030 comments) says:

    A reunion of the feeble-minded, gathering of the crazy, meeting of lunatics and deranged!
    Is it a full moon?

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  135. stigie (1,310 comments) says:

    You are not making any sense there Ugly !

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  136. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    If your answer is no, then how (conceptually) do you differentiate between rubbish collection services and other utility services such as electricity and water?

    Utility services are typically part of a contract, if you don’t want the service then you don’t pay for it.

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  137. publicwatchdog (2,797 comments) says:

    Ahhh …. the Kiwiblog toothless goldfish are gumming away – so you’ll LOVE this! :)

    http://beehive.govt.nz/release/collins-welcomes-transparency-assessment

    Judith Collins 19 NOVEMBER, 2013
    Collins welcomes transparency assessment

    Justice Minister Judith Collins today welcomed Transparency International New Zealand’s evaluation of our nation’s governance and anti-corruption efforts.

    Ms Collins launched key findings from the National Integrity Study (NIS) Assessment tonight, at the annual general meeting of Transparency International’s New Zealand arm.

    “New Zealand consistently ranks as the least corrupt country on Transparency International’s corruption perceptions index,” Ms Collins says.

    “It’s important we maintain our strong international reputation, for being free from – and intolerant of – corruption, to further enhance our nation’s trade, business and economic prosperity.”

    The report evaluates key pillars of New Zealand’s governance system, such as the legislature, executive, judiciary, public sector, law enforcement and business sectors.

    Ms Collins says there are still improvements to be made to counter corruption and bribery and the Government is actively working to implement change.

    “Our efforts include the development of a national anti-corruption strategy, the upcoming Organised Crime and Anti-Corruption Legislation Bill, and efforts to raise public trust and confidence in the Courts.”

    Ms Collins says the Government values its close working relationship with Transparency International New Zealand and she looks forward to working through the report’s recommendations.

    “In many ways we share a common purpose – promoting clean government, increasing transparency and reducing corruption. Together, our efforts help ensure New Zealand maintains its reputation as one of the least corrupt countries in the world.”

    __________________________________________________________________________________________________

    Pity about the lack of transparency with Transparency International NZ?

    http://kiwisfirst.com/

    RAMPANT CORRUPTION STINGS TRANSPARENCY INTERNATIONAL

    2 March 2014

    ‘Corruption destroys lives and communities’ is its motto and its publicly advertised mission is to promote transparency which lays bare the conflicts and bribes which suck the soul out of all countries to varying degrees. But Berlin-based non-profit Transparency International is better known for telling the world which countries are doing a good job at combating corruption and which ones are not through its annual ‘perception index’ which rates 177 countries from 1 to 177.

    Media organisations such as Forbes rely on Transparency International’s findings in promoting its own world perspective.

    In its own ‘perception’, Transparency International ranked New Zealand lowest (along with Finland) in corruption – and its local chapter is the non-profit’s golden child and keeper of the faith. In contrast, New Zealanders question a charter which received almost all of its funding from the New Zealand government, routinely turned away new members – individual memberships have been relatively constant at 50 – and declared its “over-arching principle” is it “will not be involved in investigating or exposing individual cases (of corruption)”.

    Finally, a dose of reality has set in, with revelations of rampant corruption within the New Zealand chapter oozing from its opaque façade. Berlin has known since early December that NZ chapter director Suzanne Snively was running a fraudulent company trading on the Transparency International name to sell her consulting services to unsuspecting foreign companies seeking trade with New Zealand. They have done nothing but cover it up. Triple dipping Ms Snively is also a contractor to the New Zealand government and her TINZ salary is funded by the government.

    This week it was revealed that another Transparency International New Zealand director Michael Vukcevic falsely claimed in his CV that he had a law degree and other qualifications in order to get an appointment in 2012 to promote New Zealand’s bid for a free trade agreement in the Middle East.

    Yet another TINZ director Claire Johnstone was a government official running a private consultancy business which promoted her ability to “access grant funding from government for many of our clients”. Her husband Ash Johnstone, a serving NZ police officer, was profiled on the company website as in charge of conducting security background checks for private clients.

    It came to light last year that at least two directors of TINZ made repeated visits to the Ministry of Justice in Cambodia seeking personal fortune on the door-opening coattails of Dame Sylvia Cartwright who was one of two international judges appointed to the Extraordinary Chambers of the Courts of Cambodia, filling a vacuum in the war ravaged country.

    Fraud examiner and former police prosecutor Grace Haden, who was denied membership in TINZ and consequently launched her own “Transparency New Zealand” is not surprised by the corruption or cover up by Transparency International. “They don’t want to know the reality because it differs from the myth they promote.” Late yesterday, Ms Haden sent out an open letter offering Transparency International her services to verify degrees and credentials of its directors.
    ……”
    ________________________________________________________________________________________________

    Seen for yourselves who ‘sponsors’ Transparency International NZ?

    http://www.transparency.org.nz/Partners-and-Sponsors

    Partners and Sponsors

    Cornerstone Platinum

    The Office of the Auditor General

    NIS Gold

    School of Government, VUW
    Ministry for Justice
    Statistics New Zealand
    The Human Rights Commission
    Ministry of Social Development
    The Treasury
    Inland Revenue
    Department of Internal Affairs
    Corrections
    Department of Conservation
    Ministry of Transport
    Civil Aviation Authority
    New Zealand Transport Authority
    Maritime New Zealand
    Te Puni Kokiri
    The State Services Commission
    The Ombudsman
    Ministry of Pacific Island Affairs
    The New Zealand Defence Force

    NIS Silver

    Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet
    The Serious Fraud Office
    Crown Law

    NIS Bronze

    NZ Public Service Association
    Sponsors
    The Gama Foundation
    In Kind Donations
    Bell Gully
    VUW School of Government
    PwC
    Deloitte
    KPMG
    Human Rights Commission Launch Day
    School of Government Institute for Governance and Policy Studies Wellington
    Wellington Girls College
    Thorndon New World
    NZTE
    Institute of Directors
    BDO Spicers
    Russell McVeigh
    Chapman Tripp
    Gibson Sheat
    Susan Gluck-Hornsby
    Chen Palmer
    Juliet McKee
    Claudia Orange
    Te Papa
    ____________________________________________________________________________________________

    So – how INDEPENDENT is Transparency International NZ, when so much of their funding comes from NZ Government Departments, which all arguably have a vested interest in maintaining this RORT and FRAUD – that New Zealand is ‘perceived’ to be ‘the least corrupt country in the world’?

    Remember?

    Under NZ Minister of Corruption (oops! sorry – Justice) Judith Collins’ watch – NZ STILL has not yet ratified the UN Convention Against Corruption, and her Organised Crime and Anti-Corruption Legislation Bill has STILL not yet surfaced in Parliament.

    Funny that.

    Penny Bright

    SELF-FUNDED full-time ‘anti-corruption / anti-privatisation Public Watchdog’.

    PS: What does NZ need for a genuine platform for transparency?

    Try this :

    http://www.pennybright4mayor.org.nz/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/ANTI-CORRUPTION-WHITE-COLLAR-CRIME-CORPORATE-WELFARE-ACTION-PLAN-Ak-Mayoral-campaign-

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  138. ShawnLH (5,661 comments) says:

    “Warning White Supremist(ish)?!”

    hj, almost every second or third article is about evil Jewish influence in the West. You don’t think that might be a wee bit of a clue?

    Just look at their links page.

    American Renaissance. White Supremacist site.

    American Third Position. White Supremacist site.

    Wermod and Wermod. Neo-Nazi site.

    And that’s just the tip of the iceberg.

    Merely because they are just clever enough to not put swastikas on their page does not mean they are not peddling the same old crap.

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  139. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    You are not making any sense there Ugly !

    Corruption isn’t about not paying rates…

    corrupt (v.) mid-14c., “contaminate, impair the purity of,” from Latin corruptus, past participle of corrumpere (see corrupt (adj.)). Late 14c. as “pervert the meaning of,” also “putrefy.” Related: Corrupted; corrupting.

    http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=corrupt

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  140. kowtow (8,733 comments) says:

    Meanwhile in Birminghamistan

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/10776607/Islamist-plot-six-schools-face-Ofsted-special-measures.html

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  141. stigie (1,310 comments) says:

    What about taking your shit somewhere else Penny ?

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  142. ShawnLH (5,661 comments) says:

    “You are not making any sense there Ugly !”

    He never does. What surprises me is that anyone thinks he’s going to. Waste of time engaging with him in the first place.

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  143. wat dabney (3,805 comments) says:

    Shawn,

    It’s a bad “point.” Would you say to a rape victim, just forget about it?

    You are equating all new-born children with being as bad as rapists.

    What a hideous and indefensible doctrine.

    A vile creed which rushes to justify totally innocent babies and children burning forever.

    Pure filthy evil.

    Forgiveness is always costly. In this case it cost Jesus the crucifixion.

    The question is who set the price.

    If it was Yahweh himself then he could equally have just wiggled his nose couldn’t he. No theatrics necessary. None of that teenage-melodramatic self-pitying martydom shit was required in the slightest.

    On the other hand, if this particular action was necessary then Yahweh is not omnipotent. A ten-a-penny demi-god at best. About on a par with Loki I’d say (though infinitely more evil obviously.)

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  144. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    You are not making any sense there Ugly !

    What part didn’t you understand?

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  145. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    The question is who set the price.

    No, the real question was: “who was the crucified man”?

    “Thou hast known my reproach, and my shame, and my dishonour: mine adversaries [are] all before thee.” ~ the crucified man, Psalm 69:19

    “But I [am] a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.” ~ the crucified man, Psalm 22:6

    http://www.actsinjunction.info/pages/switched.html#s5

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  146. wat dabney (3,805 comments) says:

    The old switcheroo.

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  147. thedavincimode (6,869 comments) says:

    How do you think that conversation at the pearly gates is gonna go kowtow?

    Dear oh dear – couldn’t even turn the hate dial down for Easter? God’s living fraud on earth.

    Do you think the Big Guy will be holding you up as an example of a Christian life to everyone else in the queue?

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  148. ShawnLH (5,661 comments) says:

    “You are equating all new-born children with being as bad as rapists.”

    Nooo, silly boy. I was pointing out the difficulty and pain of forgiveness.

    That said, every human being is born with the potential for every evil imaginable.

    “If it was Yahweh himself then he could equally have just wiggled his nose couldn’t he.”

    No, because justice would not have been done, and the purpose of the cross was both love and justice. God is both loving and just, and the cross fulfills and reveals both aspects of His nature.

    “On the other hand, if this particular action was necessary then Yahweh is not omnipotent.”

    Philosophically incorrect. God is omnipotent, but God also has a nature. God cannot do anything contrary to His own nature, and as our rebellion required justice, justice had to be paid.

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  149. Nostradamus (3,433 comments) says:

    I’ve just looked at the Local Government (Rating) Act 2002.

    The process for Penny Not-So is set out in sections 66-76.

    In summary:

    Section 66 (Registration of charging order for judgment for rates)
    – Auckland Council have already registered a charging order against Penny’s property.
    – I don’t know the date of the rates judgment.

    Section 67 (Enforcement of judgment)
    – Penny is given three months (from the date of the rates judgment) to pay.
    – If Penny doesn’t pay, then Auckland Council can ask the Registrar of the High Court to enforce the rates judgment. The rates judgment can be enforced “by sale or lease of the rating unit”. As Penny lives there, I think we’re looking at a sale rather than a lease.

    Section 68 (Rating sale or lease)
    – The Registrar sends Penny a friendly letter.
    – Penny is given six months to pay.

    Section 70 (Rating unit may be sold or leased)
    – After six months, if Penny still hasn’t paid, then the Registrar may sell or lease Penny’s property (and recover the Registrar’s costs and Auckland Council’s costs).

    The clock is ticking, Penny! Tick tock!

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  150. ShawnLH (5,661 comments) says:

    Wat, I have a question for you. Your always using words like good and evil.

    But where do you get your standard for what is good and evil from?

    If your a hard atheist, then you do not believe there is any transcendent, objective law maker or any transcendent, objective law or morality of any sort. So if everything is just an accident, then words like ‘good’ and ‘evil’ have no inherent meaning.

    Your criticisms of Christianity are thus based on an irreconcilable contradiction.

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  151. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    The clock is ticking Penny!

    The legislation only applies to rating units that exist within territorial areas. The simplest defence against assumption of territory would be common law notice of trespass.

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  152. wat dabney (3,805 comments) says:

    Shawn,

    There is nothing to forgive, unless you are referring to the absurd doctrine of Original Sin – the whole basis of Christianity – which has it that babies and children are indeed so wicked that their automatic consignment to the eternal fiery pit is justified.

    Your comparison with rapists is therefore only inaccurate in so far as nobody, I suspect, would sentence a rapist to an eternity of burning. You are, quite literally, arguing that new-born babies are incomparably worse than rapists.

    Philosophically incorrect. God is omnipotent, but God also has a nature. God cannot do anything contrary to His own nature…

    So what other deity defined Yahweh’s “nature”? If the deity called Yahweh is bound by its nature then it is anything but omnipotent. As I said, a demi-god.

    And you still fail to address the key point, which is that either the crucification was a necessary act – in which case, again, Yahweh is revealed as just a weak player – or it was Yahweh’s choice – in which case he could equally have stuck his finger up his arse.

    …and as our rebellion required justice, justice had to be paid.

    That would be the rebellion of the babies and children, would it? The one which justifies their horrific and automatic fate of an eternity in the fire.

    A question for you, Shawn, how many babies and children – not to mention adults – has Yahweh got burning at the moment? How many millions of babies is he torturing right now? How many children?

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  153. nasska (11,788 comments) says:

    Perhaps next time. :)

    Ref: https://www.dropbox.com/sc/vdhxzgyzt2o4k5f/P7_7nzpwTG

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  154. wat dabney (3,805 comments) says:

    Shawn,

    Wat, I have a question for you. Your always using words like good and evil.

    But where do you get your standard for what is good and evil from?

    As a general rule, I come down on the side of the argument which says that burning babies and children in endless fire is evil.

    I know Christians disagree with me on this one, and they often try right here to get me to change my mind and sanction it.

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  155. nasska (11,788 comments) says:

    Shawn

    I’ve just finished a bit of research & I’ve uncovered a bloke who’s done the math. He reckons that 230,548 people plunge into hellfire each & every day. Ref: http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/billions_of_people_going_to_hell.htm

    The things I do to help you Godfreaks. :)

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  156. mandk (1,015 comments) says:

    UT:

    Would such usage result in their loss?

    Of course it would, if their download limit was finite.

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  157. ShawnLH (5,661 comments) says:

    “There is nothing to forgive, unless you are referring to the absurd doctrine of Original Sin – the whole basis of Christianity – which has it that babies and children are indeed so wicked that their automatic consignment to the eternal fiery pit is justified.”

    The problem is that even if we take original sin out of the picture, human beings still do evil things, so yes, there is something to forgive.

    “So what other deity defined Yahweh’s “nature”?”

    None. God is just loving and just, by nature, eternally. Your assumption that anything with a defined nature must not be omnipotent is incorrect.

    “That would be the rebellion of the babies and children, would it?”

    No, the rebellion of the entire human race.

    “A question for you, Shawn, how many babies and children – not to mention adults – has Yahweh got burning at the moment?”

    None. Babies and toddlers are not morally responsible, and thus cannot commit sin with any sense of personal moral responsibility. They are saved.

    Also, hell is not a place where anyone is tortured or being burned. That’s not in scripture. Anywhere. You’ve been watching too many b grade horror films. Hell is simply a place of permanent separation from God. And Scripture strongly suggests that it is not eternal, but will simply cease to exist at the end of time.

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  158. ShawnLH (5,661 comments) says:

    “As a general rule, I come down on the side of the argument which says that burning babies and children in endless fire is evil.”

    You have sidestepped the question. Where do you get an objective standard for good and evil from, if everything is an accident?

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  159. ShawnLH (5,661 comments) says:

    This might be helpful to you wat.

    “Does the Bible teach that babies go to hell when they die? In order to answer this question, we must find a biblical example in which an infant died, and in which his or her eternal destination is recorded. To do such is not difficult. In 2 Samuel 12, King David’s newborn son fell terminally ill. After seven days, the child died. In verses 22 and 23, the Bible records that David said: “While the child was alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, ‘Who can tell whether the Lord will be gracious to me, that the child may live?’ But now he is dead; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.” It is clear that David’s dead infant son would never return to this Earth, but David also said that one day, he would go to be with his son. Through inspiration, David documented that his own eternal destination was going to be “in the house of the Lord” (Psalm 23:6). Therefore, we can conclude that “the house of the Lord” would be the eternal destination of his infant son to whom David would one day go. King David was looking forward to the day when he would be able to meet his son in heaven. Absolutely nothing in this context gives any hint that the dead infant son’s soul would go to hell.

    Furthermore, Jesus said in Matthew 18:3-5:

    Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.

    And in Luke 18:16-17, Jesus remarked: “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God. Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it.”

    Therefore, we have been given a specific example in the Old Testament of an infant who died and would live forever in heaven. And Jesus Christ Himself, in the New Testament, stated that little children retain the qualities that make a person eligible to inherit the kingdom of God. We see, then, that infants and small children that die are in a safe state, and will live eternally in heaven.

    The Bible nowhere teaches that babies go to hell if they die in infancy. Neither does it teach that babies inherit the sins of their parents. Although many skeptics have tried to portray God as an evil tyrant Who condemns innocent children to eternal destruction, their arguments are without merit or any semblance of biblical credence. In the words of Jesus Christ, “Let the little children come to me.”

    https://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=13&article=1201

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  160. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    Of course it would, if their download limit was finite.

    Wrong, they might be under their limit.

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  161. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    Neither does it teach that babies inherit the sins of their parents.

    Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
    Romans 5:12

    Also, hell is not a place where anyone is tortured or being burned.

    And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
    Mark 9:43

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  162. ShawnLH (5,661 comments) says:

    “and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:”

    Yes. All have sinned, as adults. The sin we corruption we inherit does not send us to hell, only our own sins do that.

    None go to hell for original sin alone, but only for their own personal sins committed as morally responsible agents.

    And as the Biblical exposition I posted above shows, that does not include babies.

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  163. thedavincimode (6,869 comments) says:

    ShawnLH

    Standards of behaviour are not something that are the exclusive preserve of the god-bothering fraternity and indeed, kowtow is living proof of that fact as he limps through life on his crutch of embitterment and hatred.

    That is not to say that fundamental standards of morality and ethical behaviour are not found in Christian teachings. But it does not follow that Christianity was any more than a vehicle whereby pre-existing standards might be conveyed. At the most fundamental level, humans have needed to either co-exist or kill each other to survive. Christianity has placed it’s foot firmly in both of those camps over time.

    One does not have to look far for examples of compelling practical needs for standards of behaviour to exist in a Christian vacuum – sports teams and business are two contrasting examples. The fact that those two spheres of activity do not routinely exhibit standards that many would aspire to does not deny the proposition that such values may arise independently of Christianity any more than kowtow may be regarded as representative of the Christian value set.

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  164. ShawnLH (5,661 comments) says:

    “Standards of behaviour are not something that are the exclusive preserve of the god-bothering fraternity”

    I never said they were. You misunderstood my point.

    I was asking about where an OBJECTIVE standard for good and evil can come from without an objective law maker.

    If everything is just an accident, then there is no objective standard. Thus whatever rules we choose, are just meaningless opinion. They are of course necessary and useful, but not objective.

    Wat uses phrases like “good” and “evil” but if everything is an accident, then his criticisms are meaningless.

    In an accidental universe, it is not possible to distinguish between the morality of a law abiding person, and the morality of a serial killer, other than opinion

    Which makes all “good” and “evil” talk nonsense.

    Wat’s criticisms are thus based on an irreconcilable contradiction.

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  165. publicwatchdog (2,797 comments) says:

    Seen this Kiwibloggers?

    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA1404/S00340/time-for-greater-ministerial-accountability.htm

    Time for greater ministerial accountability

    Saturday, 19 April 2014, 12:09 pm
    Press Release: Green Party
    Time for greater ministerial accountability

    The Green Party has today released a proposal to introduce a ministerial disclosure regime in New Zealand to improve the transparency and accountability of government.

    The proposal, based on the system used in the United Kingdom since 2010, would require all Ministers to publically release records of their meetings with external organisations, overseas travel, gifts given and received, and hospitality received.
    The records would be released on a quarterly basis and published online.

    “A ministerial disclosure regime will bring a much-needed boost to the transparency and accountability of government in New Zealand,” said Green Party Co-leader Metiria Turei.

    “The public will be able to see, on a regular basis, who Ministers are meeting with, who they’re receiving gifts and hospitality from, and details of their overseas travel.

    “Some of this information is already made public through the Registrar of Pecuniary Interests, but that doesn’t tell us the whole story and it only happens once a year.

    “Regular, proactive disclosure of this information, particularly records of who Ministers are meeting with, will bring a greater measure of transparency to decision-making and will improve ministerial accountability.

    ……………………
    _________________________________________________________________________________________________

    https://www.greens.org.nz/sites/default/files/ministerial_disclosure_fact_sheet.pdf

    I support this proposal.

    “Nothing to hide – nothing to fear?”

    Who is meeting the Ministers?

    Who in this John Key led National/ACT Government is NOT going to support this initiative?

    hmmmm………… let me guess ……

    Penny Bright

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  166. mandk (1,015 comments) says:

    Tariana Turia tells it how it is:
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11241363

    Labour party did nothing for Maori and Pasifika during 9 years in power.

    Too busy sucking up to the unions and rainbow factions, I guess.

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  167. thedavincimode (6,869 comments) says:

    I was asking about where an OBJECTIVE standard for good and evil can come from without an objective law maker.

    And I was saying it comes from the need to kill or co-exist. There is no need to read books on this stuff Shawn, it’s actually down to human behaviour. Try thinking for yourself rather than re-gurgitating what you want to believe.

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  168. mandk (1,015 comments) says:

    UT: “Wrong, they might be under their limit.”

    Wrong. They are still taking something that does not belong to them and something that someone else has paid for.

    Your argument is like saying that it is not theft when you take someone’s wallet because they still have money in their bank account.

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  169. wat dabney (3,805 comments) says:

    Shawn,

    The problem is that even if we take original sin out of the picture, human beings still do evil things, so yes, there is something to forgive.

    No. The crucifiction in the story is all about Original Sin.

    That is the whole supposed purpose.

    For you to imagine otherwise shows you don’t have an inkling about the evil creed you espouse.

    Babies and children are consigned to an eternity of torture because of Original Sin.

    God is just loving and just

    This is still Yahweh we’re talking about, the deity that consigns babies and children to be burned forever?

    These babies who, apparently even before their first little breath, are in “rebellion” against Yaweh and thereby so wicked that they deserve to be burned forever.

    A question for you, Shawn, how many babies and children – not to mention adults – has Yahweh got burning at the moment?’

    None. Babies and toddlers are not morally responsible

    Okay. Let’s stop it right now shall we.

    You don’t have a clue about Christianity and the centrality of Original Sin.

    You don’t have the first understanding about the meaning and significance of the crucifiction in the story.

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  170. ShawnLH (5,661 comments) says:

    “No. The crucifiction in the story is all about Original Sin.”

    Actually no. It’s partly based on that, and partly, largely, on the sins we personally commit.

    “Babies and children are consigned to an eternity of torture because of Original Sin.”

    No. As I pointed out, and in the apologetics article I posted, that is not Biblical teaching.

    “Okay. Let’s stop it right now shall we.”

    I’m sure you want to. Your losing the debate.

    “You don’t have a clue about Christianity and the centrality of Original Sin.”

    I’m very familiar with it. I have been a Christian since 1984, and have read the Bible from cover to cover several times, and hundreds of books on Christian theology, not to mention three years study at varsity.

    Sorry wat, but your just plain wrong, and desperately trying to hold on to your delusions to, well, keep holding on to your delusions about Christianity.

    You have it badly wrong bud, no matter what you think or what you were taught.

    Admit it and move on. You’ll grow as a person.

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  171. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    Wrong. They are still taking something that does not belong to them and something that someone else has paid for.

    No, they are not taking anything, they are using a service.

    Your argument is like saying that it is not theft when you take someone’s wallet because they still have money in their bank account.

    No, it’s different because taking someone’s wallet deprives them of the use of it.

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  172. mandk (1,015 comments) says:

    “No, it’s different because taking someone’s wallet deprives them of the use of it.”

    And if you use 10GB of my download limit, you are depriving me of its use. It doesn’t matter that I have another 10GB unused. I needed 20GB and you have stolen from me.

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  173. cha (4,078 comments) says:

    All this has happened before in general debate, and all of it will happen again….

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  174. mandk (1,015 comments) says:

    UT: Just to be clear,

    1961 Crimes Act s252: “Accessing computer system without authorisation
    (1)Every one is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 2 years who intentionally accesses, directly or indirectly, any computer system without authorisation, knowing that he or she is not authorised to access that computer system, or being reckless as to whether or not he or she is authorised to access that computer system.”

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  175. Fletch (6,486 comments) says:

    Uh oh – DPF’s away and we’ve broken the thumbs up/thumbs down system.
    Everyone just act dumb and maybe he won’t notice…

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  176. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    And if you use 10GB of my download limit, you are depriving me of its use.

    Not if you remained under your limit.

    I needed 20GB and you have stolen from me.

    No, you just made that up. The original argument was about there not being any loss, as son as you introduce loss an obligation (or possibly a crime) exists.

    UT: Just to be clear,

    The legislation only applies to persons

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  177. nasska (11,788 comments) says:

    Fletch

    I blame Baity. He was here last night upticking his comments under about five different identities.

    The system couldn’t handle the crap. :)

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  178. ShawnLH (5,661 comments) says:

    Pretty detailed Biblical exposition refuting wat dabney’s delusions.

    “We need never fear about God being unjust. He cannot be. His mercy and justice are from everlasting to everlasting. I therefore conclude, that there will be no children in hell. There will also be no retarded, or otherwise mentally-incapacitated individuals there, those who cannot fully comprehend and understand what Christ has accomplished on their behalf at Calvary.

    In summary, I think we can conclude the following:

    First, that there is some period of grace afforded the young before they have developed an understanding to fully comprehend the gospel message and its implications for their lives.

    Second, there seems to be good scriptural support that all infants, like David’s little son, go immediately, in their innocence, into the arms of the Lord.

    Third, that the likely range of such an age of “accountability ” may occur around the time of puberty.

    Fourth, that we are not saying children younger than this “accountability age” commit no sin (as sinful tendencies and acts occur quite early in children), and because of their fallen nature, they do these things spontaneously, things which they have definitely NOT learned from their parents or their friends). What we are saying is that up to the point when they reach clear understanding, they do not come under the judgment of the Law.”

    http://www.probe.org/site/c.fdKEIMNsEoG/b.4220349/k.5C9C/Do_Babies_Go_to_Hell.htm

    Hopefully with his loss on this one (not to mention throwing a tantrum and giving up the debate) we will not hear any more of wat’s so-called “unvarnished” bible delusions.

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  179. mikenmild (11,662 comments) says:

    No one here really cares about your imaginary rules for getting to heaven.

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  180. mandk (1,015 comments) says:

    “The original argument was about there not being any loss”

    I was responding to your argument that you can’t steal a service, which, as I demonstrated, you can.

    And your argument that I am not deprived if you use my download limit, but I still remain under my limit, is specious. If I took 10 cents from Bill Gates, it would still be theft.

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  181. nasska (11,788 comments) says:

    ‘ I think we can conclude” ……” there seems to be”……” that the likely range”…..

    Aren’t you waffly retards certain about anything? :)

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  182. mikenmild (11,662 comments) says:

    nasska – it’s becasue they can’t really be sure that infants don’t go to hell – their Lord’s been a bit vague on that point.

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  183. nasska (11,788 comments) says:

    ….”their Lord’s been a bit vague on that point.”…..

    Seems a bit tough Mike. The poor little buggers cast into a lake of burning shit for eternity on the basis of Eve upsetting Yahweh & getting the boot from the Garden of Eden.

    Gives a whole new meaning to “suffer the little children” though. :)

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  184. big bruv (14,132 comments) says:

    ShawnLH is again having trouble with the truth.

    Until recently the Catholic church (in another example of its extreme cruelty) deemed that every child who died before being baptised did not get to enter their kingdom of heaven. Those children (who ironically had yet to be poisoned by their parents religious bullshit) spent the rest of time in limbo.

    This again demonstrates just how evil religion is and why it is clearly man made. What better way to scare your followers (because lets face it, all religion plays on peoples fears) into submission than to tell them that their kids will spend eternity in limbo.

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  185. Viking2 (11,553 comments) says:

    What happened to mH370.

    Flight reproduced in a simulator. chilling and so simple to do. Really good watch.

    https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/video/watch/22226497/flight-mh370-simulator/

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  186. Azeraph (607 comments) says:

    To get into heaven one must walk through the eye of a needle.

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  187. Viking2 (11,553 comments) says:

    Talking racism and politics, this should make your day.

    http://screencast.com/t/zFx5T7tEA

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  188. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    I was responding to your argument that you can’t steal a service, which, as I demonstrated, you can.

    No, you’re treating a public amenity (a service) as if it were unauthorized use of a private network.

    In the case of the private network the service is provided by agreement (typically with an ISP), and unauthorized use is not part of that agreement.

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  189. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    This again demonstrates just how evil religion is and why it is clearly man made.

    Religion is based on belief, it is neither good or evil in itself.

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  190. Left Right and Centre (2,994 comments) says:

    Sports rambling with your host up down and middle….

    Union: Will Dan Carter and Richie McCaw be spotted using NZRFU approved warm-up zimmer frames on the sideline if picked (if picked? Give me a break) for the RWC ?

    If you play them – it’s a win-win whatever the outcome. If the ABs win again – well, briliiant – the old soldiers took care of business – the go to magic men cast yet another spell – money in the bank. The names that have an aura of success on any team sheet.

    And if they don’t – they were too old, past it – and went to one world cup too many – the well was dry.

    Tennis: Unlike a team sport like rugby, how good 32-year-old Roger Federer is and whether a veteran should be ‘in the side or not’ is a little bit easier to determine. Top five ranking and taking out an admittedly slightly injured Nole Djokovic (playing wrist) on clay in two sets last time out. Not bad. Not bad at all. I think you can safely keep on selecting him for now. If only it was that easy in rugby. (And try selecting a tennis player but playing them ‘out of position’.. hahaha)

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  191. ShawnLH (5,661 comments) says:

    Mikey,

    “No one here really cares about your imaginary rules for getting to heaven.”

    You mean you don’t. Since when did you speak for everyone at KB? Let alone the other Christians here? Don’t be so petulant and arrogant just because one of your fellow atheists got exposed as an ignorant fool who throws childish temper tantrums.

    “it’s because they can’t really be sure that infants don’t go to hell – their Lord’s been a bit vague on that point”

    In fact Scripture is very clear, as both articles show.

    Your always patting wat on the back for his attacks, now he’s been shown up for an ignorant and angry hate monger who could not stand up to 30 minutes of real debate.

    No wonder all you angry anti-Christian bigots have nothing much more than insults and irrational logical fallacies like the flying spaghetti monster. Your prejudice is no different to the Jew haters and racists on this site, and bigotry is always based on ignorance.

    Wat just proved that.

    Final point. This is not your blog Mikey. It is not naaska’s or big bruv’s or wats. David allows the GD thread for discussion and debate on any topic. If you and the other atheist trolls don’t like that, you know what to do. Go somewhere else that restricts free speech to your liking.

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  192. nasska (11,788 comments) says:

    …..”Religion is based on belief, it is neither good or evil in itself.”……

    It’s okay until it gets anywhere near men UT…..then it is used for evil.

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  193. Nostradamus (3,433 comments) says:

    Fletch:

    Uh oh – DPF’s away and we’ve broken the thumbs up/thumbs down system.
    Everyone just act dumb and maybe he won’t notice…

    Does this mean that only God gets to judge the quality of our comments today? :)

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  194. Left Right and Centre (2,994 comments) says:

    I hate religion. It deprived fans of Michael Jones on Sunday games. Religion is evil.

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  195. eszett (2,426 comments) says:

    Well, seems to me that Shawn’s morning erection lasted all through the day.

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  196. SPC (5,770 comments) says:

    Did redbaiter get too excited when returning to play with the thumbs up/thumbs down system last night?

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  197. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    It’s okay until it gets anywhere near men UT…..then it is used for evil.

    Are the beatitudes used for evil?

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  198. mikenmild (11,662 comments) says:

    Wow, chill out Shawn. No need to be so defensive. I mean, you are certain in your faith, aren’t you?

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  199. nasska (11,788 comments) says:

    Now then,” said the warden addressing the three instigators
    of a failed prison riot. “I would like to know two things.
    First: Why did you revolt?
    Second: How did you get out of your cell?”

    One of the three men stepped forward,
    “Warden, we rebelled because the food is awful.”

    “I see. And the cell? What did you use to break the bars?”

    Replied the spokesman, “Toast….”

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  200. Left Right and Centre (2,994 comments) says:

    haha… when you accuse someone of being defensive…. there’s no way to refute the allegation without being defensive in the process. Check and mate motherfucker !! Brilliant. Same with ‘argumentative’. You like to argue. No I don’t. You just did it clown.

    Does the bible say if you’re allowed to search for the G spot on the missus ?

    Nasska – is it fair to say that near death experiences are akin to ‘dipping one’s toe in the water?’

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  201. nasska (11,788 comments) says:

    ….”Are the beatitudes used for evil?”…..

    Don’t worry about specifics of the creeds of the different sects UT. It is only the inability of man to get his head around the concepts of infinity or eternity that allows religions to exist….the shysters who dreamt up the schemes were on a nice little earner as soon as the gullible were persuaded to place faith & trust in Skydaddies who’d take care of the details.

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  202. Nostradamus (3,433 comments) says:

    ShawnLH:

    Final point. This is not your blog Mikey. It is not naaska’s or big bruv’s or wats. David allows the GD thread for discussion and debate on any topic. If you and the other atheist trolls don’t like that, you know what to do. Go somewhere else that restricts free speech to your liking.

    Er, ShawnLH, this isn’t your blog either. You wouldn’t be trying to restrict free speech that’s not to your liking (because you perceive it to be anti-religion), would you?

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  203. twofish (99 comments) says:

    Penny refers to today’s Green press release
    “Time for greater ministerial accountability”

    The Green Party has been championing honest politics in New Zealand for many years. We’re committed to open and transparent government, and have taken steps in the past to advance this …

    … like our full disclosure of all details relating to the meeting between Green Party Leader Russel Norman and
    Internet Party’s Kim Dotcom.

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  204. ShawnLH (5,661 comments) says:

    “Wow, chill out Shawn. No need to be so defensive. ”

    I’m defensive of the right for Christians to post here. That’s all. And I’m chilled out thanks, and happy to expose the ignorance of anti-Christian bigots who think this web site is for them alone.

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  205. nasska (11,788 comments) says:

    ….”is it fair to say that near death experiences are akin to ‘dipping one’s toe in the water?’”…..

    Just another fairy tale LR&C.

    Ref: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-near-death-experience-isnt-proof-heaven/

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  206. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    It is only the inability of man to get his head around the concepts of infinity or eternity that allows religions to exist

    Religions can exist independently of man.
    Religions are not “allowed” to exist, they exist as a result of the natural behaviour of consciousness as it experiences reality.
    The concepts of infinity or eternity are secular, and religion is not constrained by the secular realm.

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  207. Colville (2,298 comments) says:

    Ugly truth at 3.56 and 4.06.
    You are flat out wrong.

    Liability to pay for services is accepted in ownership of a legal title unless other methods have been accepted in the subdivisional consent. (on site waste treatment for instance)
    It is not possible to have a title created without adequete provision for disposal of waste water or access to a road. In creating the title you accept that you will use the sewerage system and the roads …. and pay for them.

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  208. nasska (11,788 comments) says:

    ….”Religions can exist independently of man”….”Religions are not “allowed” to exist,”…..

    Crap. Religions were invented by man.

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  209. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    Crap. Religions were invented by man.

    You’re sure that aliens do not have religious beliefs?

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  210. ShawnLH (5,661 comments) says:

    “It is only the inability of man to get his head around the concepts of infinity or eternity that allows religions to exist….the shysters who dreamt up the schemes ”

    Now that’s a fairy tale. :)

    “The University of Oxford, finds that humans have natural tendencies to believe in gods and an afterlife.
    The £1.9 million project involved 57 researchers who conducted over 40 separate studies in 20 countries representing a diverse range of cultures. The studies (both analytical and empirical) conclude that humans are predisposed to believe in gods and an afterlife, and that both theology and atheism are reasoned responses to what is a basic impulse of the human mind.

    The researchers point out that the project was not setting out to prove the existence of god or otherwise, but sought to find out whether concepts such as gods and an afterlife appear to be entirely taught or basic expressions of human nature
    .
    ‘The Cognition, Religion and Theology Project’ led by Dr Justin Barrett, from the Centre for Anthropology and Mind at Oxford University, drew on research from a range of disciplines, including anthropology, psychology, philosophy, and theology. They directed an international body of researchers conducting studies in 20 different countries that represented both traditionally religious and atheist societies.

    The findings are due to be published in two separate books by psychologist Dr Barrett in Cognitive Science, Religion and Theology and Born Believers: The Science of Childhood Religion.

    Project Co-director Professor Roger Trigg, from the Ian Ramsey Centre in the Theology Faculty at Oxford University, has also written a forthcoming book, applying the wider implications of the research to issues about freedom of religion in Equality, Freedom and Religion (OUP).”

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  211. thedavincimode (6,869 comments) says:

    Well, I guess we won’t see redtweeter again unless the ticks re-appear.

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  212. mikenmild (11,662 comments) says:

    No one is stopping christians from commenting here. Whether their comments are well received is entirely up to other commenters. It’s a free forum.

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  213. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    Liability to pay for services is accepted in ownership of a legal title unless other methods have been accepted in the subdivisional consent. (on site waste treatment for instance)

    Really? Where are the terms of acceptance defined?

    It is not possible to have a title created without adequete provision for disposal of waste water or access to a road.

    Really? What about the title to an island?

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  214. ShawnLH (5,661 comments) says:

    “Well, I guess we won’t see redtweeter again unless the ticks re-appear.”

    Was Redbaiter actually doing that? Not a very bright move as it’s so easy to check. Not to mention, kinda pathetic.

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  215. nasska (11,788 comments) says:

    ….”You’re sure that aliens do not have religious beliefs?”….

    There’s not much information to hand that I could use to base an opinion about the religious beliefs of aliens UT. :)

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  216. mikenmild (11,662 comments) says:

    Uptick for that, nasska.

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  217. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    So it’s possible that religions are not just the inventions of man, them?

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  218. ShawnLH (5,661 comments) says:

    Religion/spirituality is hardwired in the brain. It’s a natural part of human nature, not an invention.

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  219. nasska (11,788 comments) says:

    They could be the inventions of your aliens UT.

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  220. mikenmild (11,662 comments) says:

    A genetic inclination towards religious belief is not evidence for the truth of such beliefs.

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  221. cha (4,078 comments) says:

    A thousand years ago a blind Arab summed things up.

    Do not suppose the statements of the prophets to be true; they are all fabrications. Men lived comfortably till they came and spoiled life. The sacred books are only such a set of idle tales as any age could have and indeed did actually produce.

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  222. stigie (1,310 comments) says:

    Jesus, now DPFs blog is starting to disappear completely !~

    No upticks, no downticks…lets blame Reddy !

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  223. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    Do not suppose the statements of the prophets to be true; they are all fabrications.

    There’s no way of knowing if they are true or not unless there is a definite time period for the statements.

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  224. ShawnLH (5,661 comments) says:

    “A genetic inclination towards religious belief is not evidence for the truth of such beliefs.”

    Never said it was. It is however proof that naaska’s claim that religion is just an invention of shyster’s is false.

    That’s two atheist fairy tales demolished in one night. :)

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  225. Colville (2,298 comments) says:

    Liability to pay for services is accepted in ownership of a legal title unless other methods have been accepted in the subdivisional consent. (on site waste treatment for instance)

    Really? Where are the terms of acceptance defined?

    Read your subdivision consent.

    It is not possible to have a title created without adequete provision for disposal of waste water or access to a road.

    Really? What about the title to an island?

    Refer previous answer.

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  226. nasska (11,788 comments) says:

    ….”That’s two atheist fairy tales demolished in one night.”….

    Only in an unhingeded mind given the right combination of drugs would such hallucinations be possible. :)

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  227. mikenmild (11,662 comments) says:

    While there might be a genetic basis to religious beliefs, the specific details of such beliefs are obvious human inventions.

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  228. ShawnLH (5,661 comments) says:

    ” the specific details of such beliefs are obvious human inventions.”

    Only in your own mind mikey. Some of them might be. Some of them might not. Unless you have all the knowledge of the universe available to you, you cannot know for sure one way or another.

    That’s called a belief. Your faith assumptions are showing. :)

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  229. eszett (2,426 comments) says:

    ShawnLH (1,916 comments) says:
    April 20th, 2014 at 8:49 pm
    Religion/spirituality is hardwired in the brain. It’s a natural part of human nature, not an invention.

    Being gullible probably is.
    Religions are nothing but merely a result of that.

    Thhat”s why we have reason and critical thinking to counter such nonsense.

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  230. RF (1,446 comments) says:

    Jesus H Christ. Never thought I would agree with some of the comments in the standard.. Like them I am also getting really tired of avoiding the boring and lengthy posts by Penny Dumb.

    Get a life….

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  231. ShawnLH (5,661 comments) says:

    “Being gullible probably is.
    Religion is nothing but merely a result of that.”

    Not according to the Oxford study, amongst others. Religion itself is hardwired according to those studies, and it provides an evolutionary advantage.

    “Thhat”s why we have reason and critical thinking to counter such nonsense.”

    True reason and critical thinking does nothing of the sort. When atheists use the word ‘reason” they are lying, or they don’t understand the meaning of the word.

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  232. SPC (5,770 comments) says:

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  233. eszett (2,426 comments) says:

    Bollocks, shawn.

    Just because we have a tendency to believe stories dont make those stories true.

    And there is nothing more that you fear is reason and critical thinking because they expose your stories for what they are.
    Badly constructed and contradicting fiction as a result of wishful thinking

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  234. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    Read your subdivision consent.

    So you’re wrong, and liability to pay for services is not necessarily accepted in ownership of a legal title.

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  235. ShawnLH (5,661 comments) says:

    “Just because we have a tendency to believe stories dont make those stories true.”

    Nor does it make them untrue, and nor does anything else.

    “And there is nothing more that you fear is reason and critical thinking”

    Oh I’m fine with both, but your displaying neither.

    “because they expose your stories for what they are.”

    No, they really don’t. Thats your belief system, your faith. I have seen almost every argument under the sun against the Bible, and none has been rationally convincing.

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  236. SPC (5,770 comments) says:

    There is no evidence that God has ever killed a human being, yet the bible says God mass murdered an entire planet of beings, excluding only one pair of each kind.

    When the bible is a false witness against God, how can it be a work of faith in God?

    The bible is the tool of absolutist authority on earth, not God.

    The rule of one nation, then the rule of the entire planet under Christian or Moslem theocracy.

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  237. ShawnLH (5,661 comments) says:

    “Dopey Atheist Theme #3 — The “Faith v. Reason” Cliché. Related to the above, another absurd non-rational contention from the primitive atheist school is the pride taken in this moronically invoked cliché: if something is believed by faith, it is not a rational belief.

    Well, to the extent that the above is true, it’s an obvious truism, and thus of no use. And the fact that some parts of belief in God or all is by faith remains a fact that is readily conceded by theists, and without any damage to any validity they may have.

    Why is that? Simply that just because reason doesn’t compel a conclusion, it does not mean a conclusion or belief is necessarily wrong. And to the extent that the principle that faith-is-not-reason matters, its assertion in this argument is dumb and self-defeating, and misses the core of the human condition.

    The person that relies only on reason, and claims that it alone is sovereign, is not thinking like a human being in the real world.

    We actually experience reality differently and we act under what manifest as non-physical ideas and urgings, even if they are transmitted by the processes of cellular neurons and honed by evolution.

    We perceive and assign intangible values. We make shorthand decisions – rational ones — based on trust and probabilities. We recognize value in things like beauty and morality which are powerless in themselves and unfound in a microscope.

    Such are solid bases for the belief that reason cannot be the sole source that takes us to meaningful conclusions.

    Human life and perceptions are not a pile of rational and empirical turtles, going all the way down.

    To think so is to be irrational. It is irrational in part because it is also unempirical – not an accurate understanding of what makes people choose what to think and believe. Faith is a normal observable meaningful and practical part of human awareness and life.”

    http://www.spectacle.org/0812/heretic.html

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  238. ShawnLH (5,661 comments) says:

    “yet the bible says God mass murdered an entire planet of beings,”

    No. Human beings would not have spread across the whole world at that time. The flood, assuming it’s not a parable, was likely local.

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  239. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    the bible says God mass murdered an entire planet of beings, excluding only one pair of each kind.

    The original text doesn’t say that. Some translations have a problem with the difference between killing and murder.

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  240. SPC (5,770 comments) says:

    Shawn, and you claim reason

    1. no evidence of God killing anyone, ever.
    2. not only has there never been a worldwide flood nor has there ever been any other flood encompassing the totality of human settlement. Humans began in Africa, then migrated across the ME into Asia and Europe – arriving by 50,000BCE.
    3. belief that floods are caused by god is pagan …

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  241. SPC (5,770 comments) says:

    Ugly Truth, so you believe

    1. that God mass killed humanity
    2. that a killing of human children and pregnant women is not murder if God does it. Why?

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  242. ShawnLH (5,661 comments) says:

    “1. no evidence of God killing anyone, ever.”

    There is no evidence that He hasn’t. Exactly what evidence would you expect to find?

    “not only has there never been a worldwide flood nor has there ever been any other flood encompassing the totality of human settlement.”

    There may have been a flood in and around the relevant area. Who knows. There is no empirical evidence either way, so your assertion is assumption.

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  243. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    1. that God mass killed humanity

    Humans didn’t turn up on the scene until the advent of Rome. The Bible describes the mass killing of people because of their evil.

    2. that a killing of human children and pregnant women is not murder if God does it.

    Murder is unlawful, intentional, killing. A creator is responsible for his creation, that responsibility may involve the destruction of the creation.

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  244. SGA (1,123 comments) says:

    ShawnLH at 9:38 pm

    Religion itself is hardwired according to those studies, and it provides an evolutionary advantage.

    I’m having trouble finding any respected peer-reviewed articles arising from that study showing that religion has a genetic base – help me out here ShawnLH – I’m interested to look.

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  245. ShawnLH (5,661 comments) says:

    SGA,

    Here is the article on the study.

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/07/110714103828.htm

    Similar studies have been done and come to the same conclusion.

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  246. SGA (1,123 comments) says:

    @ShawnLH
    Actually, it’s been a long day, so no rush – I’m probably to bed soon.

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  247. SPC (5,770 comments) says:

    ShawnLH, belief that naturally occurring events, such as floods, are acts of God is pagan. No assumption required.

    When you claim that there is no evidence that God has not killed human beings, you resort to the argument of the atheist. Is that reasonable?

    The bible account, via inference of the need to sustain each species by placing a pair of each on the Ark, is referring to all the earth.

    Sorry no weaselling is possible, it is an untrue story and a false witness against God as a killer.

    So why, well then this God is posed as seeking to have all Canaanites killed and then in Revelation of pouring out more wrath for killing those on the earth as a means to usher in some order of rule across the earth. Cue crusades and militant jihad in the name of God’s will being done. If their God is a killer why should his followers not kill to rule and reign on the earth?

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  248. SGA (1,123 comments) says:

    @ShawnLH
    Oh yes – there’s a lot of circular linking to the press release about the study – looking at the study(s) itself/themselves seems elusive. All I’ve found are comments that it seems heavier on the philosophy, and lighter on empirical data.

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  249. ShawnLH (5,661 comments) says:

    It’s early days for this research, but I have seen similar studies from Boston and Canada suggesting the same thing. It’s not an absolute given yet, but nevertheless at least strongly suggestive, and certainly goes some way to debunking the kind of silliness naaska enages in.

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  250. SPC (5,770 comments) says:

    Ugly Truth, so anyone responsible for the creation of another can kill them if they want? Is that the example of your God?

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  251. ShawnLH (5,661 comments) says:

    “ShawnLH, belief that naturally occurring events, such as floods, are acts of God is pagan. No assumption required.”

    Yes and no. Belief that all naturally occurring events are acts of God is pagan, but the Bible clearly says that sometimes naturally occuring events are used by God, and may at times be caused by him.

    “When you claim that there is no evidence that God has not killed human beings, you resort to the argument of the atheist. Is that reasonable?”

    My point was, what kind of evidence would you expect to find in the first place? Personally I think God has ended lives before natural death at various times.

    “Sorry no weaselling is possible, it is an untrue story and a false witness against God as a killer.”

    No, I think it is likely true. But Hebrew words can have multiple meanings, including the word for “world.”

    As to the two of ever kind, that could still refer to a specific eco-sphere, not the entire world.

    “Cue crusades and militant jihad in the name of God’s will being done. If their God is a killer why should his followers not kill to rule and reign on the earth?”

    Jesus says we should not murder, nor rule over others, and His teaching is the final word for Christians.

    But God can and does sometimes end human life before natural death because He is the Creator and we His creations. That does not give us the right to murder, because we are not God and do not have his infinite wisdom and love to do what is right in every situation.

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  252. SGA (1,123 comments) says:

    ShawnLH at 10:27 pm

    It’s early days for this research, but I have seen similar studies from Boston and Canada suggesting the same thing. It’s not an absolute given yet, but nevertheless at least strongly suggestive, and certainly goes some way to debunking the kind of silliness naaska enages in.

    So the assertive –

    Religion itself is hardwired according to those studies, and it provides an evolutionary advantage.

    is perhaps overstating things a little at this stage.

    To be fair, young children are easier to get to believe in supernatural phenomenon in general (e.g., easter bunnies, santa claus, tooth fairies), and I’d guess that applies to religious supernatural phenomenon as well. Not sure that I’d call it being hard-wired for religion per se, however, but ymmv.

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  253. ShawnLH (5,661 comments) says:

    SGA,

    that why I said “according to those studies.”

    The evidence is mounting though.

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  254. SGA (1,123 comments) says:

    ShawnLH at 10:40 pm

    that why I said “according to those studies.”
    The evidence is mounting though.

    After a couple of decades of being told the same about intelligent design in general (I noted in passing that Trigg seems to be a Behe fan), I’ll remain skeptical at this point.

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  255. SPC (5,770 comments) says:

    ShawnLH, you believe that God can and does kill humans, despite there being no evidence to demonstrate this in even one instance.

    Just because the bible says so. You see the bible as a witness against God, and not for God.

    In my opinion a false witness, and frankly I find it easy to defend God on the charge of killing human life, as the only evidence for the prosecution is the word of the bible.

    A bible full of other stories that are also false. It is not a credible witness.

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  256. ShawnLH (5,661 comments) says:

    “ShawnLH, you believe that God can and does kill humans, despite there being no evidence to demonstrate this in even one instance.”

    We already have the evidence that people die from “natural” causes. If your version of God created the world, then how do you explain that people die?

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  257. SPC (5,770 comments) says:

    Shawn, I would have thought you knew enough about the euthanasia debate to know the distinction between killing and natural life death.

    The topic is not human mortality, but the veracity of the bible.

    The flood story is not an historical event, yet Christian belief in the book of Revelation is often premised on God again acting to kill.

    (One can deconstruct stories and teach from them but not with any false witness against God as a killer).

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  258. ShawnLH (5,661 comments) says:

    The flood story may well be an historical event. That’s a matter of faith at this point, though there is some suggestive evidence.

    There is a difference between killing for just reasons and murder. Police or soldiers may have to kill for just reasons, and God can do the same.

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  259. SPC (5,770 comments) says:

    ShawnLH, there is no evidence for the historical occurrence of any flood caused by God to kill humans, let alone one that fits with the bible account.

    Exercise of self defence does not apply to God killing humans. Humans pose no threat to God.

    There is no evidence that God has ever exercised force to protect those under threat from other humans.

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  260. Scott Chris (6,176 comments) says:

    Shawn verses Ugly:

    Shawn saw Ugly on a bridge about to jump. He said, “Don’t do it!” Ugly said, “Nobody loves me.”Shawn said, “God loves you. Do you believe in God?”

    Ugly said, “Yes.”Shawn said, “Are you a Christian or a Jew?” Ugly said, “A Christian.”Shawn said, “Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?” Ugly said, “Protestant.” Shawn said, “Me, too! What franchise?” Ugly said, “Baptist.” Shawn said, “Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?” Ugly said, “Northern Baptist.” Shawn said, “Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?”

    Ugly said, “Northern Conservative Baptist.” Shawn said, “Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?” Ugly said, “Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region.” Shawn said, “Me, too!”

    Northern Conservative†Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?” Ugly said, “Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912.” Shawn said, “Die, heretic!” then Shawn pushed Ugly off the bridge.

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  261. ShawnLH (5,661 comments) says:

    “ShawnLH, there is no evidence for the historical occurrence of any flood caused by God to kill humans, let alone one that fits with the bible account.”

    There is some suggestive evidence, however, if you believe in God, you know that there is no definitive evidence to totally prove He exists, so the issue of evidence is to some degree moot. If you believe in God, you know that is a matter of faith. And so is the Bible. My faith in God and the Bible arises from my personal experience of Jesus in my life. Because I trust Jesus, I trust the Bible, which Jesus always affirmed as true.

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  262. ShawnLH (5,661 comments) says:

    SPC,

    take a look at this.

    Evidence Noah’s Biblical Flood Happened, Says Robert Ballard.

    http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/evidence-suggests-biblical-great-flood-noahs-time-happened/story?id=17884533

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  263. ShawnLH (5,661 comments) says:

    Scott,

    I haven’t engaged with Ugly today at all, and stopped doing so yesterday.

    Do try to keep up! :)

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  264. ShawnLH (5,661 comments) says:

    CHRIST HAS RISEN! HE HAS RISEN INDEED! :)

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  265. SPC (5,770 comments) says:

    Shawn, yes there was a flood around the Black Sea coast pre 5000BCE. Hardly worldwide and by then humans were on all continents including the American.

    That is not evidence for Noah’s flood, but of one flood event at one time in one small region of the earth.

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  266. SPC (5,770 comments) says:

    Shawn, did you ever consider that the bible was a false witness, a false claim of knowledge of God (and a slander of God as a killer at that) and this was the original/major sin of biblical religion?

    The monstrous arrogance of those who thought they could declare God. Anyone inheriting that mantle/legacy had a lot to atone for.

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  267. SPC (5,770 comments) says:

    One version of Revelation Chapter 11

    And the world rejoiced when the two false witnesses died.

    For they slandered God as a killer by (Noah’s) flood and fire and brimstone (Sodom and Gomorrah) and the plagues upon Egypt and the slaughter of Canaanite soldiers. This was the false witness of bible story history.

    And they accused God of once again intending to reign judgment upon the earth from on high as in these past times. This was the false witness of biblical prophecy.

    And God reclaimed authority over the word of God and took it back to heaven where it belonged.

    Thus the lie of men, that their ways of murdering their way into power and killing those who resisted their rule was also the way of God, was put to rest.

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  268. SPC (5,770 comments) says:

    Indeed Christ has risen, and not one person killed by him in the near 2000 years since. Pity that cannot be said about his followers.

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  269. lilman (965 comments) says:

    Ugly WANKER, Truth,lol, you can’t steal a service?
    Tell that to a taxi driver,
    Tell that to a ISP.
    Tell that anyone who has a business providing services.
    In fact if I didn’t pay your wife for her services she performed on my neighbours goat last week I would think as you are pimping her out you would consider that theft?
    Me I would call it animal abuse.

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  270. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    lilman, go fuck yourself.

    Stealing, or theft, involves depriving the owner of his possession of his property.

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  271. Dean Papa (784 comments) says:

    D.H. Lawrence poem “The Risen Lord” set to music by the greatest living American,

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