Guest Post: Shane Jones, “Heretic Hunting” and Waitakere Man

April 26th, 2014 at 1:59 pm by kiwi in america

David is back next week to resume his regular posting but I wanted to bring Kiwiblog readers’ attention to Josie Pagani’s comments about Shane Jones’ departure at Pundit (thanks to Whale for first pointing it out). She and Cameron’s analysis dovetail neatly with my Guest Post on why Labour is polling so poorly.

She quotes gloats from Labour’s left:

“Here’s what Martyn Bradbury said on the Daily Blog tonight:

Labour dodge a bullet….(it’s like) the relief of a haemorrhoid being surgically removed, losing Shane Jones is no different to that. Good riddance”.

Here’s a taste of what they’re saying on The Standard:

“Tracey

4.1.1.1

22 April 2014 at 6:40 pm

no shane jones was labours john key and accordingly pushed national policies. HE WAS IN THE WRONG PARTY HENCE HE HAS DISCUSSIONS WITH MCCULLY FOR SOME TIME.”

Some, not happy to stop at driving Shane out, want to see others gone too:

Kerry @plateaunz Protected Tweets  

Goff Mallard and King should have walked the plank.”

There’s no problem finding other Labour party staffers and candidates who share the view that Labour needs fewer not more people on its side, and that it can define itself by throwing people out rather than bringing them in. These are the militants who make every issue, from man bans to building roads a litmus test, and if you fail – good riddance.

The viciousness of these heretic hunters is driving people out of the Labour party at a time when Labour needs all the votes it can get.

If you disagree with these policy police or attempt to debate an issue, you are not just an opponent  – you’re an enemy within.

This is a warning call for Labour; very few extra votes will be attracted to Labour because people like Shane are being driven out. And the more people who are driven out of the party, the more the party is dominated by people who don’t even realise there is a problem, let alone what the problem is. The risk then, is not just that Labour ends up in opposition next year, but that it is in no better position to heal itself for future elections.”

This is Labour’s problem neatly summed up by an insider on the left who grew up learning her quite accurate political instincts watching her father John’s political experience as a key advisor to the Alliance and the Progressives. Josie Pagani typifies the type of well travelled professional with a social conscience that used to find an easy home inside Labour’s once broad church …..not anymore as Pagani’s post was met with negative comments from the left wing’s echo chamber (mickysavage aka Greg Presland, Danyl McLauchlan and others).

Jones saw no future for someone like him in modern Labour and left. Despite getting more positive publicity for Labour over the Countdown Supermarkets alleged stand-over tactics than almost all of his colleagues put together (including David Cunliffe), his potentially centre vote winning messages that the Greens in Cabinet would be a disaster (earning him a telling off from Cunliffe), oil and gas exploration should be embraced by Labour (contradicted by Labour’s energy spokesperson) and speaking out for Waitakere Man were ignored. Jones realised that Labour was behaving like a losing party, was saddled with a flawed leader, had embedded the power of its left wing activists via the party wide leadership voting system and, even if Cunliffe had stumbled across the line on September 20, knew the chances of his being elected to a new Cabinet by Labour’s left leaning caucus were slim.

Pagani joins Chris Trotter in sensing the coming disaster for Labour (albeit for different reasons than Trotter):

“Today there is only one way to stop a calamity, and that is for genuine progressive to run towards the party and demand a focus on jobs, and higher wages, not on banning Nigella, or trucks, or roads, or whatever NGO the Labour party is trying to be this week.

Focus on what Labour is for, and stop being against every passing thing the government does. We want to hear more from people who celebrate New Zealanders and less from the heretic hunters who want to purge the party.”

John Armstrong agrees as well (as David has said in the previous post):

“A fair chunk of these minorities have formal representation within Labour’s organisation. But in seeking to secure their pound of flesh in terms of policy gains in return for votes, their agendas have become increasingly out of sync with the far more apolitical or conservative-leaning wider New Zealand public.

With the left of the party running its own agenda which puts purity ahead of pragmatism, Labour’s appeal is shrinking. Those voters whom Labour needs to capture will see Jones’ exit as a further narrowing of Labour’s appeal. The “broad church” is turning into The Temple of the Tyranny of the Minority.”

The purge that began in 1988 has still not finished and will only stop when Labour is humiliated into an electoral rump that approximates only its core minority constituencies. Jones’ departure, and the factional infighting it has provoked, has merely put the spotlight on the ‘Heretic Hunting‘ driving Waitakere Man into the waiting arms of John Key.

No tag for this post.

67 Responses to “Guest Post: Shane Jones, “Heretic Hunting” and Waitakere Man”

  1. lolitasbrother (693 comments) says:

    its going to be an overwhelming victory: NZ Nat Government 2014 keep going probably even 2017
    not my idea even Chris Totter agrees.

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  2. lolitasbrother (693 comments) says:

    of course there are many things we wish to change,

    that total refusal of the people’s voice in the referenda
    listen up Murray McCully, you are the shining so quiet and hidden, but effective,
    why did you take no notice of us,
    why did you cabinet go against with what we wished
    will I have to come into your parliament to bring Colin Craig with me.
    I have written to you McCully personally to congratulate you m on your stance Security Council UN, and the Shane thing, you must listen to us.
    You must listen to us we are people. We pay you.

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  3. dog_eat_dog (780 comments) says:

    Colin Craig is a space cadet and binding referendums are a bad idea.

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  4. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    Labour, the gift that keeps giving :)

    Key may as well save his time & money and forget running an election campaign. He should just keep his mouth shut and let Labour do it all for him.

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  5. simonway (387 comments) says:

    David Farrar: “I can’t believe the Labour caucus still has dinosaurs like Phil Goff, Annette King, and Trevor Mallard in its ranks!”

    David Farrar: “Party members who want Phil Goff, Annette King, and Trevor Mallard to leave Parliament are a big problem for Labour.”

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  6. David Garrett (7,278 comments) says:

    dog: You have met Colin Craig I presume, as I have, several times? If not, upon what are basing your judgment that he is “a space cadet”?? The MSM? Surely not…

    Granted, he didnt do himself any favours with his pronouncements on chemtrails and the moon landings…the reality is he is a somewhat naive nice guy, and doesn’t really WANT to get that the MSM are out to make a fool of him…But he is getting there…He needs a top line media handler, and as far as I know, he doesnt have one..

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  7. Psycho Milt (2,412 comments) says:

    I can understand why you, Cameron Slater and John Armstrong would be keen to see Labour bringing in more people like Jones – an “undisciplined, waffling misogynist” (as Danyl accurately summed him up) best known for putting porn on his work credit card, his involvement in an appalling immigration scandal that reeks of corruption, and his willingness to accept payments from National. What I can’t understand is why Josie Pagani would want it.

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  8. thor42 (971 comments) says:

    Josie Pagani is in the wrong party (as is Damian O’Connor down there on the West Coast).

    Do those two *really* want to keep being associated with the sorry rabble of losers that Labour now is?
    I guess they do.

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  9. itstricky (1,831 comments) says:

    I can understand why you, Cameron Slater and John Armstrong would be keen to see Labour bringing in more people like Jones

    I thought he was coming into his own. Some bold statements. Making back some ground and what not. But the only thing that ever got mentioned here prior to last week was porn porn porn. Now he’s the best thing since sliced bread, supposedly. (Initial pun intended)

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  10. kiwi in america (2,452 comments) says:

    Psycho Milt
    Shane Jones has a number of flaws (as do most politicians) but he had an ability to connect to working class males, a demographic that Labour needed to at least close the gap on National’s lock on this group to have a chance of governing. Pagani rightly pointed out that Labour was no longer home for someone like Jones and the whole unseemly glee exhibited by the left of Labour confirms their tin ear to sane political advice – that power lies in the centre and Labour is eschewing the centre.

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  11. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    he had an ability to connect to working class males

    No future with Labour then.

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  12. All_on_Red (1,583 comments) says:

    Psycho
    Have you ever watched porn? Glanced at a magazine containing nude pictures?

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  13. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    All_on_Red, he finds people having sex and female bodies OFFENSIVE !!!!

    But thinks others have a problem ;)

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  14. All_on_Red (1,583 comments) says:

    Racist and Misogynist are the lefts favourite ” shut up, shut up, shut up ” labels.
    Psycho and other leftists like him are your classic whited sepulchres. Of course he’s looked at porn.

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  15. nasska (11,507 comments) says:

    ….”Of course he’s looked at porn”…..

    Just not porn with women’s bodies….he prefers the real thing. :)

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  16. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    All_on_Red, sex workers will tell you who the weirdos really are. A few know me through my work and tell me stuff.

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  17. Psycho Milt (2,412 comments) says:

    Have you ever watched porn?

    Plenty. The more relevant question is, have I ever booked up porn to my work credit card? The answer to that one is no.

    Not to mention – he paid money, albeit someone else’s, for crappy, hotel-quality porn. That goes seriously to questions of judgement in my view…

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  18. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    Psycho Milt just redeemed himself :)

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  19. David Garrett (7,278 comments) says:

    All on Red: We have all watched porn of one sort or another…but as Psycho has succinctly put it, the question is not whether one has watched porn but whether one has been stupid – or cavalier enough – to put it on a taxpayer funded credit card.

    The rules surrounding use of parliamentary cards are very loose…but on no stretch could they ever legitimately be used for that…and didn’t he intially use the “I dont recall” defence??

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  20. All_on_Red (1,583 comments) says:

    Psycho
    So paying for porn with a work credit card is what makes you a misogynist. But if you pay for it yourself, then you’re not.
    Wow.
    Have to agree with you about hotel porn though!

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  21. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    didn’t he intially use the “I dont recall” defence??

    DG, Psycho Milt did mention the porn was “crappy” and conceivably was forgettable. Personally I could not recall the details of all the porn I have viewed. Could you ?

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  22. Psycho Milt (2,412 comments) says:

    …he had an ability to connect to working class males…

    While at the same time being high-grade female voter repellent, ie the very last thing Labour needs.

    Pagani rightly pointed out that Labour was no longer home for someone like Jones…

    Just like National was no longer home for someone like Katherine Rich. Of course, she was classy enough not to shit on National from a great height months out from an election and take a job with Labour, but “classy” has never been a description that would fit Shane Jones.

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  23. All_on_Red (1,583 comments) says:

    David G
    Perhaps we should not quibble about what politicians put on credit cards and what perks they abuse. I mean really.
    Jones got called a misogynist mainly/ partly because of the porn. They’re just smearing him. Personally I think he’s a bit of a lightweight and just another example of the troughers we see in politics.
    That some see his loss to Labour as being a big blow is an even bigger indictment on the shallow talent pool they have.

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  24. All_on_Red (1,583 comments) says:

    “While at the same time being high-grade female voter repellent”

    Why? Because he watched porn? Would your wife think you were repellant if she knew you watched porn?

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  25. Psycho Milt (2,412 comments) says:

    didn’t he intially use the “I dont recall” defence??

    That I can understand. If you were caught out having had a session with two hookers on your work credit card, you’d be able to look reporters in the face and say “I cannot tell a lie – it was I who fucked the two hookers in my hotel room,” but watching hotel porn? No, I wouldn’t want to own up to that one either.

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  26. hj (7,021 comments) says:

    One way (perhaps) of seeing labours problems is that when we had compulsory unionism there were deeper and stronger connections in the workforce. Most workers were quite sensible and moderate (they looked around at their own community to make judgement). Whereas now, we have the activists dregs standing in for the worker.

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  27. Psycho Milt (2,412 comments) says:

    Why? Because he watched porn?

    I think his reputation with women could have survived the porn-watching. It could perhaps have also survived him ditching his family to take a trophy wife, and maybe even survived him going on about what a virile cockmaster he is. But there was no coming back from referring to Parliament’s female MPs as “geldings.” Not a shit’s show.

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  28. David Garrett (7,278 comments) says:

    All on Red: I dont know if your post is ironic or not…but as far as I am concerned we should definitely question what our representatives put on their credit or taxi cards..

    No, of course I cant remember all the porn I have ever watched since the internet age began…but I can certainly remember that I never once paid for any with a parliamentary card, or slipped a charge for some onto a hotel bill…

    That said, I think those denying Jones is a massive loss have a point…Even before the porn thing he was not particularly well liked in their caucus…he had a reputation for being lazy, and for being massively full of himself…He also loved to show his knowledge of the English language, never using one word where five would do, and never using a two syllable word when he knew a three or four syllable one which expressed the same idea…That said, he could definitely communicate with the working class despite not being one of them…something Cunliffe just can’t do…Maori and PI know when they are being condescended to..or worse, when someone is adopting their accents… Jones was never stupid enough to do that…He is definitely a major loss, but I think Kelvin has the ability to leave Jones’ rep in the shade…at least until the Sisterhood get him…

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  29. All_on_Red (1,583 comments) says:

    “female MPs as “geldings”

    Hahahaha, yep, that would be a killer in the Labour Party. Still, my point about the Left being fond of labels to denigrate and belittle stands. Especially racist and misogynist

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  30. David Garrett (7,278 comments) says:

    Psycho: Actually I disagree…I dont think he could have weathered the porn thing, at least not in a prominent ministerial position…The debating chamber is a ruthless place…every time the Nats wanted to needle him there would have been cleverly worded points of order about “the member abusing both himself and this House”… Questions about “extras on the Minister’s hotel bill..” Jones has such an elevated opinion of himself I don’t know that he could have stood that…especially knowing that fully half his caucus were delighting in his discomfort..

    I think the references to “geldings” might have been to male homosexuals rather than wimmin?

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  31. nasska (11,507 comments) says:

    ….“female MPs as “geldings”….

    That truism would have tied a few of the lessos’ & girly men’s bits & pieces in knots.

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  32. Nostalgia-NZ (5,205 comments) says:

    “Focus on what Labour is for, and stop being against every passing thing the government does. We want to hear more from people who celebrate New Zealanders and less from the heretic hunters who want to purge the party.”

    Good points, but still however more public revelations of what is wrong in the Labour Party. All respect to Jones, despite his ample girth, he had no stomach for the fight. He was well capable of moving on without making his departure seem like a gift to National. The f wits can’t even manage a political divorce without dismembering one another and themselves. I don’t recall ever seeing open dissent like this in Clark’s time even though it seems she was a designer of this social engineering which is resulting in a many headed monster. There seems no point in lamenting the loss of the ‘worker’s party’ because it long ago became the vehicle for what appears to be a privileged elite on Clark’s drawing board. Despite that possibly being unfair, a reasonable percentage of people would judge it that way because Labour isn’t selling itself. Faafoi’s voice as to the middle does not seem to gain any support while the feast continues over who should go next. Cunliffe sensibly pushed the Greens away, lets see him do the same with the unions because they are a bigger dinosaur to the public mind because they have not adjusted to the modern times, the garrottes they once employed are now around their own necks as they drag Labour further down. Given more power they simply seek to push their own cause and not the interests of a broader public good while not having the brains to see that JK is finding his way into the workers vote through his PI MPs and the MP.

    For a few months Jones was seen as the messenger delivering ‘unwelcome’ news of the modern world, a critical role in finding votes but it looks like Cunliffe couldn’t stand the heat and folded probably around the same time, as another commentator said here a few days ago, that Jones again lost his appetite for hard work and fell short of his promise. In his mind he may have qualified it as being a reasonable to the detractors that now gloat over his departure not noticing that their ship takes on more water.

    Labour delivered Key the same sex marriage Law allowing him to largely escape any negative criticism for it, meanwhile in Coromandel and else where there are a lot from the ‘right’ against mining but that won’t stop them voting National. Labour and the Greens are beating a irrelevant drum about the environment because Kiwis, Councils etc long ago responded. I often comment about Key’s fine handed leadership but at times it seems that a large part of it is a divided opposition singing in many different languages. It will still be close however.

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  33. kiwi in america (2,452 comments) says:

    Psycho Milt
    Notwithstanding all the supposedly female adverse character traits/actions of Jones’ you cite, in reality where were centre left female voters going to go had he miraculously managed to win the Labour leadership? To National? At worst it would go the Greens meaning no net loss to the left block. But for each possibly offended women voter there would be 2 soft centrist male voters whom Labour stood a better chance of getting to vote Labour with Jones at the helm than Cunliffe.

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  34. David Garrett (7,278 comments) says:

    Fuck off back to your hole Killer…the day after the commemoration of so many needlessly lost lives your presence is particularly odious…

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  35. kiwi in america (2,452 comments) says:

    The story is now less about Jones and more about Labour and the internal circular firing squad formed since his decision was announced.

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  36. David Garrett (7,278 comments) says:

    KIA: Yes, I think that’s right…they are in such disarray that if we still had FPP National could pretty much have sleepwalked to victory in five months’ time…Given that we have MMP the position is much less certain, and everyone on the Centre-right needs to constantly remind themselves of that inconvenient fact…

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  37. tvb (4,422 comments) says:

    I would be quite happy for National Governments to stretch out forever, providing they do not get too arrogant and too corrupt. Already after 6 years those seeds have been sown. The clean out of caucus of many time servers gives hope for renewal and amongst this new lot there will be some quite good future Ministers. Even a future Leader. We do not know yet who will be a good performer as people may look good on paper at a selection but simply do not make the grade as a Minister. The new blood that has come into cabinet is not that flash.. The Government is still overly reliant on about 4 or 5. Steven Joyce is the only new stand out performer. Judith Collins has feet of clay unless she can learn from her present troubles but I am not holding my breath. I do not see a replacement for John Key, anywhere apart from possibly Steven Joyce. I hope John Key has good Health for a few years more, until somebody good comes forward. Then he can retire if he wants to.

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  38. David Garrett (7,278 comments) says:

    tvb: New Zealand cabinets have always relied on four or five stars…we are the population of a decent size city only…imagine the US Senate being drawn from 4.5 million?

    But then four or five is enough…Churchill ran the second world war with a cabinet of less than ten…and they were by no means all stars…

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  39. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    kiwi in america, any polling apart from yourself as to the appeal of Jones to working class males?

    He has never been to the forefront of worker issues, he has always been a spokesperson for industry in the party.

    Even in the Countdown case he was representing the concerns of New Zealand businesses not workers.

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  40. OneTrack (3,104 comments) says:

    Psycho – “female MPs as “geldings”

    It was my understanding at the time that Jones was actually talking about many of Labour’s MALE MPs with that epithet.

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  41. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    If National win later this year it will not be by much.

    The ambition of the right to claim that Labour must be more centrist to get elected is a form of risk insurance – if Labour believe them then a Labour victory would mean the political loss for the right would be minimal.

    Those in Labour who concur are possibly more concerned about having the status/privilege/baubles of being in government than representing their voters.

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  42. thor42 (971 comments) says:

    @David Garrett –
    “Given that we have MMP the position is much less certain, and everyone on the Centre-right needs to constantly remind themselves of that inconvenient fact…”

    Agreed.

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  43. tvb (4,422 comments) says:

    David I agree we only need 4-5 to run a Government but the Ministers coming on need to at least show some potential for the future. So far I am not that impressed with what is coming on. I do not see a future Prime Minister in the junior Ministers so far. I am hoping the new blood has a star or two.

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  44. slijmbal (1,236 comments) says:

    Psycho

    Pagini wasn’t complaining about Jones leaving rather the response on the left was symptomatic of its increasing inability to work with a range of views and the constant demonising that is prevalent there. It’s all so personal and vindictive. One dare not disagree almost. It certainly occurs on the right but it’s a damn site worse on the left.

    Jones, for all his huge faults, was seen as representing a more centrist view within what is looking like a left shifting labour party.

    But I think you knew that.

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  45. Psycho Milt (2,412 comments) says:

    …in reality where were centre left female voters going to go had he miraculously managed to win the Labour leadership? To National?

    My money would be on “Yes” and “In droves.” For women in the political centre, Key would be a far less obnoxious figure.

    I think the references to “geldings” might have been to male homosexuals rather than wimmin?

    The context of his comment was specifically in relation to female MPs (it was when the media was peddling the Farrar/Slater “man-ban” bollocks). If he intended it to refer to homosexual male MPs, that was completely the wrong place to bring it up.

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  46. Psycho Milt (2,412 comments) says:

    Pagini wasn’t complaining about Jones leaving rather the response on the left was symptomatic of its increasing inability to work with a range of views…

    Oh, please. If Metiria Turei had joined the National Party instead of the Greens, how able would it have been to “work with a range of views” that included hers? The guy was in the wrong party, and has eventually figured out which one he should have joined. If a party can acommodate people who are in opposition to its core principles, what does it actually stand for?

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  47. David Garrett (7,278 comments) says:

    tvb: My experience is getting a bit aged…but there was certainly no-one in the class of 2008 who stood out as a potential replacement for JK…Perhaps Hekia Parata, but then she has shown herself as “all mouth and trousers” as I believe the sardonic Northern England expression has it…Simon Bridges? Certainly officer material, but PM? I dunno…Amy Adams? Ditto…Michael Woodhouse? a bit of a lickspittle…not surprised he has made Minister but this ability is as limited as his stature…There may be others if I think about it…but certainly none that leap out as “YES, that guy/gal is PM material”…

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  48. Chris R (70 comments) says:

    Have I ever watched porn? No; but I have viewed filth at the Standard!

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  49. slijmbal (1,236 comments) says:

    @DG

    it’s common in the North to say, though strictly incorrect, “All mouth and NO trousers”, the implication one talks a lot but one does not have the equipment to back up the talk. I think it started out as somewhat sardonic and replaced the original phrase.

    Jones probably didn’t hurt Labour as much as it might look. The constant screw ups do give an opportunity for Labour to fix their message and we’re still far enough out from the election for the short term memory election syndrome to kick in. If he truly wished to hurt Labour he would have waited a couple of months.

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  50. MT_Tinman (3,186 comments) says:

    Psycho Milt I’ll accept your comments as honest if you can show me you have posted the same opinions/statements before Jones walked.

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  51. Psycho Milt (2,412 comments) says:

    I’m not going to be Google for you, but I’ve commented on him recently at No Minister:

    http://nominister.blogspot.com/2014/03/the-epp.html?showComment=1396138636281#c2247872188901833348

    http://nominister.blogspot.com/2014/03/national-to-get-winston-over-line.html?showComment=1394662569588#c5120573393520522283

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  52. tvb (4,422 comments) says:

    Jones may need the money as he has his former wife and family to support as well as the new model. An MP does not pay enough to make that possible and a Minister only marginally more so. He said on TV he has had a couple of interesting offers. So being a Diplomat may not pay enough as well. So Jones may take up a more lucrative offer than what McCully can come up with.

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  53. kiwi in america (2,452 comments) says:

    Psycho
    Your contention was that Jones, if Labour leader, would be a net vote loser for Labour due to his poor appeal to women. For that to be the case, losses amongst women would have to exceed the gains he might have made amongst men especially working class males, once a bedrock of Labour support and now loosely affiliated to populist Key and thus National. Women in the centre already are atracted more to Key than Cunliffe so a hypothetical elevation of Jones would see no change there. The net loss would have to come from women already committed to Labour being those of a centre left orientation. My contention is that they are more likely to register any objection to Jones’ less women friendly image by voting more for the Greens than National. If Jones had brought in more Waitakere Men then that would have been a net gain to the centre left. It’s all a moot point. The left in Labour are content to celebrate the departure of one of Cunliffe’s few rivals for the leadership and cement the purge of the right from the party. The left have always valued ideological purlty over politicsl pragmatism so there is no surprise in the left’s current behaviour over Jones’ announcement. What is amusing to watch is to be told that Eurasia is not longer at war with Eastasia and that the once articulate lion of working people is now a lazy self serving woman hating prat.

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  54. Martin Gibson (246 comments) says:

    Thanks for the thoughtful posts and comments KIA. I would also like to be in a position to consider voting Labour, and look forward to the 2020 elections when I anticipate that being an option.
    My guess is that we’ll see some new unified political activism start at community level stripped of left-right clannishness which will throw out some exciting candidates who will eventually dig through the vacuous career troughers.
    Look me up if you’re ever visiting the sunny east coast (of Nz).

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  55. lolitasbrother (693 comments) says:

    Thanks also from me KIA above … what a brilliant killer post you gave us the other Friday, utterly riveting. I had the Quixote medal ready for you, but on a whim gave it to Farrar for climbing in cold places . Forgive me
    This business about opposition to the Greens is very interesting.
    That is 12% say will vote for the Greens, but many of the other 88% have a distinct antipathy to Green.
    That is we just don’t want them any where near the levers of power, and we are prepared to vote negatively.
    Rod Donald found this out in 2005 when Helen Clark completely overlooked him.
    I do not think that NZ First would go near a Labour Green Government.
    Chris Trotter whistles dixie, and I think we can look to a landslide NZ Nat victory.
    I am hoping that Nicky Wagner can retain the Christchurch Central seat.
    It won’t be easy

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  56. Psycho Milt (2,412 comments) says:

    Your contention was that Jones, if Labour leader, would be a net vote loser for Labour due to his poor appeal to women.

    Can’t be arsed. This bloke’s written it up better than I could.

    The left have always valued ideological purlty over politicsl pragmatism…

    AKA “The left have always had principles…”

    What is amusing to watch is to be told that Eurasia is not longer at war with Eastasia and that the once articulate lion of working people is now a lazy self serving woman hating prat.

    You have propaganda to construct, so sure you’d write this. In the reality-based community, the guys who peddled Jones as a lion of the working people are the ones now writing how terrible it is that Labour hasn’t satisfied his ego sufficiently to make him stay, and the ones saying he’s a lazy, self-serving, women-hating prat are the ones who’ve always said that – for an example of the former, see Josie Pagani, and for multiple examples of the latter, try searching for Shane Jones on the Dim Post – this one’s a good representative: dimpost.wordpress.com/2013/08/23/very-serious-punditry

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  57. Pete George (23,562 comments) says:

    Your contention was that Jones, if Labour leader, would be a net vote loser for Labour due to his poor appeal to women.

    Labour may have a bigger problem in that respect than the one that has just announced his exit from Parliament.

    The most depressing this about this whole episode was only tangentially related. My partner only follows politics very casually until close to the election when she decides (last couple of times for Labour). Anyway as we don’t normally watch much tv we were for once watching tv and she saw Cunliffe on late-night tv being interviewed about the Jones departure; she was highly unimpressed.

    She asked me who this ‘smarmy prick’ was and why on earth they made him leader. She said he continually had a fake smile and sounded smug, fake and smarmy.

    She also commented on his dress (something I never really notice) – saying that he was probably trying for casual since it was late night tv but instead it came across as 70s sleaze. She says she still hates Key but couldn’t vote for such a smarmy fake.

    From what I’ve seen in social media and heard from people in person that’s a not an isolated opinion. I’ve also heard people say that Cunliffe comes across well in person, but that’s not what most voters see.

    Smarmy and fake is hard to shake.

    And polls also suggest a loss of female support for Labour.

    Party poll results for Labour (compared to December 2013):

    Total 29.5% (down 5.9)
    Male 27.2% (down 5.5)
    Female 31.5% (down 6.6)

    Labour usually gets more female support but that is coming down significantly.

    Preferred PM for Cunliffe:

    Total 11.1% (down 5.4)
    Male 12.3% (down 5.3)
    Female 10.1% (down 4.8)

    Female support for Labour is higher than male support (31.5 to 26.7), but rate Cunliffe lower as preferred PM than males (10.1 to 12.3).

    Cunliffe preferred less in Auckland and by women – this Herald/Digipoll was a month ago but the smarmy and fake comment was from a few days ago.

    Cunliffe and Labour have a lot more to do than repair the Jones damage.

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  58. Pete George (23,562 comments) says:

    …..not anymore as Pagani’s post was met with negative comments from the left wing’s echo chamber (mickysavage aka Greg Presland, Danyl McLauchlan and others).

    Greg also challenged me on things I said at and as usual for raising what I think are serious issues for Labour at The Standard there was an avalanche of denial and attack the messenger diversion.

    ‘Heretic hunting’ was an apt description by Pagani. Labour’s problems are everyone else’s fault and scapegoats are hunted, harassed and discredited (attempted) while the elephants in Labour’s party room are conspicuously avoided.

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  59. kiwi in america (2,452 comments) says:

    Psycho Milt
    Comments about Jones prior to this announcement depended on which Labour faction you belonged to. Yes Danyl has been consistent in his view but, post the leadership primary, there was at least a thin veneer of unity that had to be faked so criticism of Jones was muted. To the ABCs yes he was always seen as one of them and a leadership contender. The left factions mumbled platitudes of unity and about Shane’s unique contribution – Cunliffe tried to do the same when speaking about Jones post the announcement. What has changed is the left is no longer faking unity or uttering vague pleasantries about Jones, the catty knives are out in abundance laying bare again the factional struggle. The left would see the persistent existence in the party of the ABCs (and Jones) like Henry II finally felt about Thomas Becket – “who will rid us of these turbulent Priests” (slight artistic license taken – sorry Shakespeare). Middle NZ has yet another reason to shun Labour and Cunliffe and vote National or stay at home. I’m sure the next round of polls will confirm this. Are polls part of the “reality based community” you refer to or is this community more the echo chamber of the left who are deaf and blind to the reality that almost all commentators on this matter see clearly. Have John Armstrong and Clair Trevett become “propogandists” now?

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  60. mara (784 comments) says:

    Labour’s biggest problem IS Cunliffe.

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  61. OECD rank 22 kiwi (2,752 comments) says:

    Psycho Milt says on April 26th, 2014 at 5:10 pm

    The more relevant question is, have I ever booked up porn to my work credit card? The answer to that one is no.

    Really? Cause the United States Department of Defense would literally pay for anything. Anyway, your “clients” seemed to be motivated by something while you were working as a contractor in Kuwait, Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse

    “Thumbs up” for Psycho Milt’s “reality-based community”.

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  62. Psycho Milt (2,412 comments) says:

    …there was at least a thin veneer of unity that had to be faked so criticism of Jones was muted….

    Er, yes – it’s called “politics.” If you’re under the impression that National hasn’t had instances of this, I feel embarrassed for your naivety.

    Really? Cause the United States Department of Defense would literally pay for anything.

    Not so! The poor sods working for DoD weren’t paid the Foreign Area Living Allowance and faced all kinds of restrictions that didn’t apply to us in the private sector. I was working for Combat Support Associates, but they weren’t stupid enough to give me a credit card.

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  63. s.russell (1,642 comments) says:

    Labour does indeed want to appeal to middle New Zealand, and tries hard to do so. The problem is that they delude themselves about where middle New Zealand actually is. They think they are middle New Zealand. So they try to appeal to themselves, and when this does not yield increased support, believe that the problem is simply one of communication.

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  64. kiwi in america (2,452 comments) says:

    Psycho Milt
    The difference is that National’s unity is real and Labour’s was always fake. National has never been as riven with factions as Labour and has never had one faction dedicated to the destruction of the other faction as is the case in Labour. I’m even more embarrassed for YOUR naivety.

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  65. Psycho Milt (2,412 comments) says:

    The difference is that National’s unity is real and Labour’s was always fake.

    Christ almighty. So, National MPs were genuinely unified in support of whatever Bill English’s programme was, then after Brash took over they were genuinely unified in support of what was essentially ACT’s programme, then after Key took over they were genuinely unified in support of Key’s programme of doing pretty much what Labour was doing? Wow! Is it some kind of a cult, or are they just completely lacking in principles?

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  66. itstricky (1,831 comments) says:

    Don’t forget being all united on the marriage equality bill. Not a conservative objector amongst them. Some people really do believe their own hype PM; Americans particularly so.

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  67. RRM (9,924 comments) says:

    I’ve voted Labour in the past.

    This post sums up very well the reasons I don’t any more…

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