Greens call for abortion law to reflect the practice

June 7th, 2014 at 7:12 am by David Farrar

Stuff reports:

The have ratified a policy on , which would get rid of a process a certified consultant says is “perfectly workable”.

Abortion is a crime under the Crimes Act, and is legal only if two consultants agree that the pregnancy would seriously harm the woman’s physical or mental health, or that there is a substantial risk the child would be born seriously disabled.

The Greens want abortion removed from the crime statutes, saying it would reduce stigma and judgment surrounding the procedure. This would mean a woman seeking one would not need external approval.

“The Green Party trusts women to make decisions that are best for them and their whanau/family,” women’s spokeswoman Jan Logie said.

The current practice and current law are out of sync. We effectively have abortion on demand in practice, but the law states that a woman has to prove damage to her mental health to have an abortion. I don’t know of any cases where this is not deemed proved, so it is just an unnecessary bureaucratic step,

Statistics from 2012, the latest available, showed 14,745 abortions were carried out in New Zealand, the lowest number since 1995. The median age of women having an abortion was 25 years and in 62 per cent of cases it was the woman’s first abortion. 

It’s good the numbers are falling. My view is abortion should be legal, safe and rare.

The issue is a conscience vote for most MPs. But if I was an MP, I’d support the Greens policy.

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298 Responses to “Greens call for abortion law to reflect the practice”

  1. big bruv (13,884 comments) says:

    As usual with the stinking duplicitous Greens there is a disturbing lack of detail.

    I would like to support this policy however I suspect that as it is being pushed by the Greens they will also want to include late term abortion or partial birth abortion.

    If the policy is to continue as things are and only removed the need to see two consultant then I would support it, if it involves partial birth or late term abortion then definitely not.

    Having said all that, I am always forced to go back to my default position when considering anything promoted by the Greens, trust nothing they say and nothing they do.

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  2. tvb (4,417 comments) says:

    Their policy looks likes a tightening in the law for post 20 weeks, but abortion on request prior to that. I could support that but the Greens are making it a party political issue which even the Labour Party would not support.

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  3. Harriet (4,969 comments) says:

    “…….Perhaps most moving of all, to me at least, was the separate Memorial to the children, hollowed out from an underground cavern as tribute to the 1.5 million Jewish children murdered during the Holocaust. To walk into and through the darkened dome, with the seemingly infinite reflections of candles winking like stars in an endless void, and to hear the whispered name of each child, recited without embellishment in a continuing cycle that takes three years to complete, is indescribably sad. “Who knows what the world has lost?” asked our guide. “One of these children might have discovered the cure for cancer, or a new form of energy, and now we’ll never know.”
    Indeed, how can we possibly know in what ways the world has been impoverished by the loss of these young lives? And, as I looked up at the star-studded firmament of the dome, I found myself thinking of the 7 million innocent children whose lives have similarly been terminated in the UK since the passing of the Abortion Act in 1967. Globally, of course, that number is a mere fraction, because worldwide the figure of aborted babies since WW2 is a staggering 1.5 billion, a number increased each year by an estimated 50,000,000.
    We are told as justification for this mass slaughter that abortion is a vital part of women’s rights. Women, goes the mantra, have the absolute right to choose what to do with their bodies, which overrides any putative right of the foetus; which of course before birth isn’t fully human anyway. Really? It may be pointed out that the vast majority of these women had the right in the first place to choose whether or not to have sex, but we are told that unrestrained sexual licence is also a fundamental human right these days, and the only answer therefore is not to teach restraint, which is unacceptably judgmental, but increased contraception and industrial scale abortion. Only by employing these policies, we are told, will we curb population growth, and ensure the survival of our species. So the somewhat bizarre result is that we encourage children to become sexually active from around the age of 12 – maybe even younger if they’re ‘ready’ – and then we mop up the mistakes…..”

    http://billmuehlenberg.com/2014/05/29/lets-grieve-for-all-children/

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  4. Pete George (23,559 comments) says:

    Have you looked for any detail bb?

    This is the Green Party media release on it:

    The Green Party will decriminalise abortion and assert the right of women to make decisions regarding their own health and the wellbeing of their family or whanau.

    Abortion is currently a crime under the Crimes Act. It is only legal if two consultants agree that the pregnancy would seriously harm the woman’s mental or physical health or that the fetus would have a serious disability.

    “The Green Party trusts women to make decisions that are best for them and their whānau/family,” Green Party women’s spokesperson Jan Logie said.

    “The Green Party believes the time has come for New Zealand to take an honest approach to abortion, to treat it as the health issue it is, and remove it from the crime statutes.

    “The fact that 99 percent of abortions are approved on ‘mental health’ grounds and that rape is not grounds for an abortion reveals the dishonesty of the current legal situation.

    “By keeping abortion a crime, New Zealand has created an unnecessary stigma around abortion that has led to delays, erratic access to terminations depending on where you are in the country, and unnecessarily late terminations.

    “Decriminalisation will reduce the stigma and judgement that surrounds abortion, and enable abortions to be performed earlier in pregnancy, which is safer for women.

    “The Green Party’s policy would allow terminations after 20 weeks gestation only when the woman would otherwise face serious permanent injury to her health or in the case of severe fetal abnormalities

    “Our policy will ensure that women have access to neutral counselling, if they want it, and that women who choose to continue with their pregnancy are given more support and are not financially penalised for doing so.

    “We would also ensure parents are fully informed about the support available for families and people living with disabilities and address discrimination against disabled people that exists in the current laws around abortion,” Ms Logie said.

    That may cover your concerns.

    There’s more detail here: https://www.greens.org.nz/policy/womens-policy-valuing-women

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  5. Pete George (23,559 comments) says:

    Green Party Women’s Policy – Valuing Women

    3. Sexual and Reproductive Health
    A. Contraception

    Good access to contraception gives women more freedom to plan their lives, and reduces the rates of abortion and unwanted pregnancy. Because different forms of contraception and sterilisation have different side-effects and other associated issues, individuals and couples should be able to choose the form of contraception that is best for them.

    Women have the right to be informed and to have access to safe, effective, and affordable contraception, and the right to culturally appropriate health care services.

    The Green Party will:

    1. Improve access to culturally appropriate information about different contraceptive methods

    2. Ensure costs and waiting lists are not a barrier to accessing appropriate contraception in New Zealand.

    3. Ensure accessibility of Family Planning Clinics throughout New Zealand.

    B. Pregnancy Termination (Abortion)

    Currently, abortion is a crime in New Zealand. It is only legal if two consultants agree that the pregnancy would seriously harm the woman’s mental or physical health or that the fetus would have a serious disability.

    The Green Party recognises this situation as problematic, because:

    The time taken to see two consultants means abortions happen later in the pregnancy. This is more dangerous, and it makes it difficult to access medical abortions (those which are conducted using medicine rather than surgery), which can only be performed at under 9 weeks gestation.

    Rape (sexual violation) is not grounds for abortion under NZ law.

    The fact that 99% of abortions are approved on ‘mental health’ grounds reveals the dishonesty of the current legal situation.

    The current laws reinforce abortion stigma, and are discriminatory towards people with disabilities.

    Abortion’s continuing criminal status helps reinforce geographical variations in access to abortion services.

    We trust women to make decisions that are best for them and their whānau/family. We want to ensure equal access to all potential options is available to pregnant women.

    Decriminalisation will also reduce the stigma and judgement that is often the result of the reason a woman chooses to have an abortion (e.g. rape being seen as more justified grounds for abortion than poverty), and will enable abortions to be performed earlier in pregnancy, which is safer.

    The Green Party supports the right to choose.

    1. To prevent coercion either for or against abortion, the Green Party will:
    a. Ensure neutral counselling is available (but not mandatory).
    b. Discourage non-neutral counselling which provides women with biased, inaccurate health information.
    c. Ensure medical oversight agencies, such as the Medical Council, maintain, publiciseand enforce codes of ethics mandating that personal beliefs (including religious, political and moral) are protected, however the practitioner is required to refer the patient to a neutral practitioner in a timely manner.

    2. To support the freedom to have an abortion the Green Party will:
    a. Decriminalise abortion by removing it from the Crimes Act.
    b. Allow terminations after 20 weeks gestation only when the woman would otherwise face serious permanent injury to her health, or in the case of severe fetal abnormalities (as is current practice).
    c. Legislate to protect the right to have an abortion.
    d. Ensure that all options to terminate a pregnancy are equally available to every woman in NZ.
    e. Reconcile NZ law with Treaties to which we are signatory, including CEDAW (Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women, and other Human Rights Treaties).

    3. To protect the freedom to choose to continue a pregnancy, the Green Party will:
    a. Ensure that options are presented in an understandable manner, with support from independent advocates or translators where necessary.
    b. Ensure those who are competent to make informed decisions on their sexual and reproductive rights have the freedom to do so.
    c. Provide increased support to vulnerable pregnant women so they feel they can continue with their pregnancy if this is their preferred option.
    d. Ensure women are not penalised financially for choosing to keep their child (see Income Support policy).
    e. Address concerns about pressure for and overuse of antenatal screening, which should be an individual choice, and ensure that parents are fully informed about available and potential supports for families and people living with disabilities. [See our Disability policy].

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  6. OTGO (548 comments) says:

    Of course the greens support abortion. There’s too many humans on the planet remember.

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  7. Psycho Milt (2,412 comments) says:

    Harriet: is it possible we could have a thread about some party’s abortion policy without religious nutters pissing drivel all over it? Just once?

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  8. Pete George (23,559 comments) says:

    OTGO – this policy isn’t likely to affect the number of humans on the planet. It aims to put current practice in s sensible legal framework.

    I think that most women will choose to have the number of children they want in their lifetime, regardless of whether they have had any abortions or not.

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  9. kowtow (8,439 comments) says:

    Green policy ,valuing women, not babies.

    Kill babies import migrants.Destroy New Zealand.

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  10. big bruv (13,884 comments) says:

    Pete George

    I don’t need you to supply me with Green party propaganda thanks. Nothing that I read in a Green party press release will ever “ease my concerns” as I simply don’t trust the bastards.

    There will be sufficient wiggle room for the Greens to allow late term or partial birth abortions, this will effectively be on demand.

    Abortion should be on demand for the first three months, after that it should only be in very, very rare circumstances.

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  11. Mags (38 comments) says:

    “The Green Party trusts women to make decisions that are best for them and their whanau/family,” women’s spokeswoman Jan Logie said.

    How about making the decision to keep your legs closed in the first place?

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  12. berend (1,708 comments) says:

    DPF: My view is abortion should be legal, safe and rare.

    How can an abortion be safe for the baby?

    [DPF: Babies can't have abortions]

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  13. bringbackdemocracy (427 comments) says:

    Green party policy on children.

    It’s wrong to smack them, but it’s O.K to terminate them.

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  14. Chuck Bird (4,880 comments) says:

    “The issue is a conscience vote for most MPs.”

    MPs conscience is oxymoron if I ever heard. Any such legislation should have to pass a binding referendum.

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  15. Harriet (4,969 comments) says:

    “….Harriet: is it possible we could have a thread about some party’s abortion policy without religious nutters pissing drivel all over it? Just once?….”

    Fuck are you stupid ? – the only referance to God was in saying ‘Jewish’ kids died in the holocaust!

    The very people who proclaim a woman’s ‘right to choose’ neglect the government tax breaks[WFF] that make a woman’s right to ‘choose’ far cheaper than it should be, all the while insisting the government shouldn’t intervene!

    In the same way, people who want the government ‘out of their bedrooms’ —- the Greens instead want to step into the public square, school & home, demanding that every man, woman and child to accept that ABORTION is good, healthy, and totally normal and women treated with respect!

    We need a government that protects things like marriage that do not belong to the government and who prosecute people who murder their children rather than funding them and ignoring people who speak against it.

    You and the fucken Greens ain’t gonna bully me into staying silent. Fuck off.

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  16. Mags (38 comments) says:

    Milt – I didn’t see a religious reference in Harriet’s post? And in order to have a discussion, surely we need opinions for and against presented?

    This topic is always very emotive and will have extreme views as it is.

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  17. Pete George (23,559 comments) says:

    big bruv at 7:23 – “As usual with the stinking duplicitous Greens there is a disturbing lack of detail.”

    Detail is supplied from where one would expect to find it.

    big bruv at 8:03 – “I don’t need you to supply me with Green party propaganda thanks.”

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  18. Simon (720 comments) says:

    “The Green Party trusts women to make decisions that are best for them and their whanau/family,” women’s spokeswoman Jan Logie said.”

    No fucking way. The Greens trust people to make decisions about what is best for them. This must be a different green party who want ban/tax/regulate just about everything else.

    Fuck will quote it again. This is from the greens.

    “The Green Party trusts women to make decisions that are best for them and their whanau/family,” women’s spokeswoman Jan Logie said.”

    Are the greens just scum or just incompetent. If you as an individual make a decision that the Greens approve of then you are permitted to act in this way. Bless the individual. But make a decision that the Greens dont approve of then you need to be taxed, regulated, account to the State or banned.

    Fuck off Green turds everyone sees you for what you are.

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  19. berend (1,708 comments) says:

    Please read this article on the effect abortion has on women and their families: http://www.imfcanada.org/sites/default/files/Interconnected_May2014_1.pdf

    Quote:

    Lee was 37 when she discovered she was pregnant.

    She was in a long term, stable relationship and had two girls already, ages 15 and 10. She put herself in the pro-abortion camp (her term). She believed—and still does—that abortion is a fundamental right, critical to women’s autonomy, power, control and independence. She had an abortion at seven weeks—an early stage with which she felt comfortable.

    She describes what followed as the worst experience of her life.

    “I cried for six weeks. I only got out of bed to go to work (at night). I had no strength. I had no life. My legs constantly gave way with the depth of my grief. … I saw, or spoke to, ten counsellors and spent $700. … Nearly seven months later, my heart was still broken. I never felt relief, only the deepest regret and remorse. What made it worse was that I had trouble finding anything to read that described what I was going through.”

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  20. Pete George (23,559 comments) says:

    berend – I expect it is easy to find articles on the effect unwanted pregnancies can have women (and girls) and their families.

    That doesn’t mean women shouldn’t have a right to choose what happens to their own bodies. They then have to deal with the consequences.

    The Green policy would be unlikely to change the number of abortions much if at all.

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  21. nasska (11,478 comments) says:

    The Godnutters are back doing what Godnutters do best.

    Minding everyone else’s bloody business.

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  22. Southern Raider (1,829 comments) says:

    Abortion is murder. If it has a beating heart it’s alive.

    There are plenty of fantastic couple unable to have children who would love to adopt and would make great parents.

    Unfortunately in this country we back the munters and serial losers over winners who actually contribute.

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  23. Pete George (23,559 comments) says:

    Prime Minister John Key said yesterday: “My view is that the abortion laws are set about the right place.”

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11269286

    That sounds like it’s just trying to avoid the issue. The difference between current law and accepted practice is huge, showing that the law is way out of step and needs revising.

    Key (and Cunliffe) would seem to prefer to ignore this.

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  24. Harriet (4,969 comments) says:

    “…..The Godnutters are back doing what Godnutters do best…….Minding everyone else’s bloody business….”

    Abortion doctors don’t keep photos of their surgical skills and talent like other doctors do.

    The ‘bloody business’ is a national disgrace!

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  25. stephieboy (3,013 comments) says:

    Mags,

    “How about making the decision to keep your legs closed in the first place?”

    And men keeping their flies zipped up..?

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  26. Fletch (6,367 comments) says:

    Let’s just consider what the Greens are promoting in their new extreme abortion policy:

    -Abortion on demand up to 20 weeks – that’s the abortion of babies that are at approximately this level of development, and at a stage when most mothers can feel them moving around inside their womb.

    -The more widespread use of early medical abortions, which the research clearly shows result in far more complications for women than surgical ones do.

    -They want NZ to adopt the extreme pro-abortion ideology which declares the aborting of an unborn human being to be a “human right” – something that not even the United Nations has endorsed.

    -They want to use the law to target crisis pregnancy centres, which offer women in need free practical and financial support, and counselling, that they don’t get elsewhere.

    -They want to deny NZ medical professionals the long-standing right to freedom of conscience, and force them to participate in a procedure that is both ethically highly controversial and which is mostly carried out for social reasons in this country.

    -They want to continue to allow abortion-up-to-birth for unborn persons with disabilities, despite the, now laughable claim that they are also the party that is committed to “removing the barriers that prevent people with impairments participating fully in society.”

    What makes this whole thing even more astounding is the fact that not only are the Greens now calling for the introduction of an extreme abortion law in New Zealand, but they have also completely overlooked one of the greatest flaws in our current abortion law – the lack of informed consent for women.

    The Greens actually state, in their new policy, that one of the fundamental requirements for informed consent – mandatory counselling (about risks, alternatives, etc.) – will NOT be required under their policy. The ludicrous nature of this position is really something to behold (especially when you consider that they are claiming that their policy shows some sort of commitment to female wellbeing.)

    And just consider the contradictory and confused nature of the reasoning that the Greens are claiming for producing this policy:

    “The current laws reinforce abortion stigma, and are discriminatory towards people with disabilities.”

    And yet this same policy also promotes abortion up to birth if you are an unborn person with a disability.

    I seriously doubt the Greens are this stupid, and would instead suggest that this is little more than a hollow excuse to introduce an extreme abortion law into New Zealand under false pretences.

    “We trust women to make decisions that are best for them and their whānau/family. We want to ensure equal access to all potential options is available to pregnant women.”

    And yet their new policy does not require any form of mandatory counselling, which would be the only way to ensure that such options are presented to pregnant women, and that abortion providers can be kept accountable to this supposed commitment.

    “Decriminalisation will also reduce the stigma and judgement that is often the result of the reason a woman chooses to have an abortion.”

    Seriously?!

    Since when are NZ women stigmatised for abortion in this country?

    Last year we had almost 15,000 abortions in New Zealand, a fact which makes an absolute mockery of the falsehood being promoted, by supporters of this extreme new abortion law, that NZ women currently have a severely restricted access to abortion under our existing laws.

    Like I said, I don’t think that the Greens have actually thought through their commitment to this extreme abortion law properly, and how it is going to hurt them at the polls.

    http://nblo.gs/XunAT

    https://www.greens.org.nz/policy/womens-policy-valuing-women

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  27. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    Simon says:

    “The Greens trust people to make decisions about what is best for them. This must be a different green party who want ban/tax/regulate just about everything else.”

    You got that slightly wrong Simon.
    1. The ‘Green’ party lets people make decisions about what is best for them as long as they are in line with party policy.
    2. The ‘Green’ party lets people make decisions about what is best for them and will let others (‘Rich pricks’) pay for the wrong decisions.

    As with every other policy from the ‘Greens’ (Maybe they should change their name to reflect what they stand for so I do not have to use parenthesis all the time), it is probably the thin end of the wedge, a hurdle on the road and their end goal is way out there.
    I don’t trust them.

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  28. Fletch (6,367 comments) says:

    This makes the Greens the Abortion Party of New Zealand.

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  29. nickle (29 comments) says:

    The Herald lead with “The Green Party wants to make abortion freely available to women up to 20 weeks pregnant”

    While I agree current law is a bit ridiculous, as in practice we do have abortion freely available. I have real concerns about the up to 20 weeks. We have children walking around who were born at 24/25 weeks, it’s a pretty close cut off.

    I was always sure that abortion is an option for me, at any time, but I would probably only use the ‘disability/danger’ angle. I didn’t have any early scans (12 weeks) for my first 2 children, but as I was around the dreaded age of 35 when pregnant with my 3rd, I did elect to have a 12 week scan.

    This scan completely changed my opinion. What was inside me was perfectly formed and recognisable, and with my care this foetus would become a fully fledged human. I knew then, that even faced with a disability/danger aspect I would have real concerns consenting to an abortion at all. It changed my personal view on abortion forever. (All my kids luckily were text book pregnancies/births)

    I don’t like that some women use abortion as a too-late contraceptive. I accept that there is a choice aspect. I’ve never been in a position of needing to decide. I have watched closely other women go through the decision process, they don’t take it lightly, and it affects them forever. I can’t help myself, although there should be legal means for abortion, I will silently judge those who chose to abort.

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  30. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    Why would Logie be concerned? No man in his right mind would want to serve that horror head.

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  31. tvb (4,417 comments) says:

    For a late term abortion where the child could survive while a pregnancy could be terminated for health reasons the rights of the unborn child need to be protected from termination of life

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  32. Psycho Milt (2,412 comments) says:

    Milt – I didn’t see a religious reference in Harriet’s post?

    Indeed – they are getting smart enough not to mention God these days. However, he, Berend, Fletch – they’re all God-botherers and that’s the reason they leap on any abortion thread – in Harriet’s case, to denounce harlots and the government in mouth-frothing terms, and in Fletch’s case, to peddle whatever idiocy he’s picked up from US nutcases.

    And in order to have a discussion, surely we need opinions for and against presented?

    It’s been presented over and over again, at ridiculous length. We get that they don’t like it. The fact is though, it exists and the legal system has to take into account the fact that Harriet et al are a tiny minority of religious fanatics whose views are not going to be reflected in law as long as we live in a democracy.

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  33. calendar girl (1,232 comments) says:

    DPF says he would support the Greens’ proposal for liberalisation of the present abortion law, yet he says: “My view is abortion should be legal, safe and rare.”

    40 abortions a day in NZ in 2012 can be regarded as “rare”?

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  34. Ben2001 (26 comments) says:

    How about requiring abortion practice to reflect current law?

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  35. Pete George (23,559 comments) says:

    I don’t think DPF was claiming the current number of abortions is ‘rare’, he was stating his preference.

    Pretty much everyone wants as few abortions as possible, but the reality is there will be a substantial number of them regardless of the law.

    It’s good to see the number dropping.

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  36. Huevon (222 comments) says:

    Abortion should be illegal in all circumstances and the women and doctors who participate in it put in prison.

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  37. Redbaiter (8,801 comments) says:

    These prog idiots who go on about it being a matter of choice need psychiatric care.

    Where’s the baby’s choice losers???

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  38. calendar girl (1,232 comments) says:

    PG: I don’t follow your logic, so I’ll explain mine – and the question I posed above.

    It is a given that there are 40 abortions occurring per day in NZ. You yourself appear to be conceding that that is not “rare”. (I’m doing more than implying, I’m claiming as a self-evident fact that it’s not “rare”.)

    Does anyone suggest that making abortion easier to access will actually result in fewer abortions in this country?

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  39. Ben2001 (26 comments) says:

    Psycho Milt; what an apposite name you have. If there is any mouth frothing it is coming from you.

    The fact that someone opposes abortion immediately labels them religious fanatics. I oppose killing unborn children yet have not been too church for years and have no religious affiliations.

    Where do you obtain this statistic that those who oppose abortion are a tiny minority? Your irrational diatribe is rather sad and I feel pity for you, not because I a a God nutter, but in the same way I would feel pity for a rabid dog.

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  40. jims_whare (403 comments) says:

    It might be falling however it still equates to getting rid of 41 unwanted children a day and we grizzle and moan about the 9 or 10 kids that get murdered each year by ferrals of some description.

    Think of it (putting aside the abortion debate for a moment) there are 14000 couples (couples in the biological sense) in NZ who are irresponsible enough to start a pregnancy and then turn around and say oh never mind, what a nuisance, lets get rid of it.

    Thats a lot of irresponsible people in NZ???

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  41. David Garrett (7,271 comments) says:

    This is never going to happen (although in this instance, the Greens are right in that the law is flouted pretty much anytime an abortion occurs on “mental health” grounds).

    Why wont it happen? Because as an institution, parliament remembers the bitter acrimony and divisions which occurred the last time abortion was debated. As someone has noted, it is a tremendously emotive subject involving a head on clash between religion, science, and “human rights”…and with regard to the latter, whether those rights extend to the foetus, and if so at what point.

    I have no doubt this thread will have a couple of hundred increasingly shrill comments on it when I return from the kids’ sport in a couple of hours. And no-one’s position will have been shifted an inch by the “debate”. It will ever be so.

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  42. Redbaiter (8,801 comments) says:

    Rather the “god nutters” any day than prog scum like Bigot Bruv & Narsekissa.

    Liars cheats and cowards and apparently completely lacking moral boundaries.

    Just human refuse, and when it comes to opinions, I’d also prefer the “god nutters” to the predictable shallow and fashionable crap spouted by progressives like Psycho Milt.

    Mindless lemmings who have had their day in the sun and are now rushing to the cliff as their genes tell them to.

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  43. wat dabney (3,756 comments) says:

    Where’s the baby’s choice losers?

    A smear of multiplying cells is not a baby, any more than it is an ‘unborn child.’

    The real debate, then, is a medical and philosophical one about the point that that changes and we can in fact talk about ‘a baby.’ It is about not allowing a baby to develop.

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  44. jcuknz (704 comments) says:

    I think the murder of the unborn is preferable to the neglect, deliberate or otherwise, of an unwanted child.
    I agree with DPF: My view is abortion should be legal, safe and rare.

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  45. nz_aj (7 comments) says:

    As a person born before the 1976 law change, to a very young mother, the shame of the family, unwanted and adopted out, I’m glad to be alive. Dodged a bullet. I couldn’t condone abortion of a healthy foetus.

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  46. Redbaiter (8,801 comments) says:

    “A smear of multiplying cells is not a baby, any more than it is an ‘unborn child.’ ”

    It’s life you disgusting faithless zealot.

    If you don’t put any value upon that miracle you’d have made an excellent guard at Belsen.

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  47. adze (2,126 comments) says:

    nz_aj and I’m sure millions of counterfactual babies prevented by contraception would have preferred to be alive today, also.

    PM and DG are right, though; religious nutters derail these debates every time, even if they are more careful about revealing their real motivations.
    I recall on Nat Radio several months ago, there was an interview on Morning Report of an anti-abortion campaigner. He steadfastly refused to mention ANY religious motivation, trying to make it about the woman’s health etc, until he was put under pressure near the end. Then as he started falling to bits, God start getting mentioned. What a surprise. :)

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  48. Ross Nixon (559 comments) says:

    I call for the practice to reflect abortion law.
    That would make a big change. 99% of aborticides would stop.

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  49. Redbaiter (8,801 comments) says:

    Hey, don’t forget the other Prog angle on this- if we weren’t aborting or otherwise failing in our duty to produce offspring, then where would the justification be for mass immigration? Yet another great Prog idea that works so well.

    Idiot gape jawed white Europeans who can’t wait to wipe themselves off the face of the earth.

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  50. nz_aj (7 comments) says:

    “A smear of multiplying cells is not a baby, any more than it is an ‘unborn child.’ ”
    A “smear” of multiplying cells is not what is removed during an abortion.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prenatal_development

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  51. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    For a lot of voters on the left, a baby is either an inconvenience to be slices up and sucked out or a benefit money earner to repeated at regular intervals.

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  52. ChardonnayGuy (1,206 comments) says:

    I’m pro-choice. I’m pro-choice because my grandmother’s sister was raped and became pregnant in the thirties and died during a backstreet abortion and was found bleeding and dead in a dark alleyway. My own mother is named after her. Abortion is a woman’s choice. End of debate, end of discussion. It’s time that we kicked away the last vestige of Kirk/Muldoon era authoritarian conservative statism. Good on the Greens, United Future’s Peter Dunne and those pro-choice Labour, Green and National MPs that want to do that. And you, mine good host.

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  53. adze (2,126 comments) says:

    Red, studies show that as a society becomes increasingly wealthy, birth rates drop off. So if you’re worried about immigrants, it makes sense for them to join the middle classes along with the rest of us.

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  54. Redbaiter (8,801 comments) says:

    How about Charlotte Dawson’s “partner” who killed their child because it interfered with his quest to be an Olympic star. What morally bankrupt narcissistic losers. These are the twisted people Psycho Milt says have the only valuable opinion.

    (To Dawson’s credit it was an act that haunted her conscience until her death)

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  55. Redbaiter (8,801 comments) says:

    “It’s time”

    The hollow chant of the knuckle dragging progressive. We should all link hands and go Maypole dancing and agree with them that because its Saturday, we should now discard what was good on Tuesday.

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  56. radvad (765 comments) says:

    Pregnancy is not a disease and abortion is not a health issue. It is a lifestyle choice (with some exceptions such as rape) that everybody is forced to pay for. It is a direct imposition of the morality of some onto everybody.
    Just remove public funding for this lifestyle choice and leave the consequences with the two people who cause them.

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  57. Redbaiter (8,801 comments) says:

    OK Radvad, if it’s a matter of “lifestyle choice”, let me ask you- in respect of your own birth and life, do you prefer life or would you have preferred abortion?

    Idiot prog robots and their “choice” mantra.

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  58. big bruv (13,884 comments) says:

    “It’s life you disgusting faithless zealot.”

    This from the man who claimed to be agnostic!

    Another lie from Bedwetter.

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  59. Redbaiter (8,801 comments) says:

    Yawn- another strawman.

    Seeing you never have a real argument, I’m forced to the conclusion the only real reason you participate in these forums is that you are like a screaming spoiled narcissistic brat, compelled to seek attention.

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  60. Gulag1917 (915 comments) says:

    Societies are becoming increasingly violent because we do not respect life from the start.

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  61. Zebulon (114 comments) says:

    I oppose abortion and want the present law tightened. I am an undecided voter (right wing on some issues left on others) and recognised that the Greens had some good ideas but as this is an issue that is important to me this announcement by the Greens means that I will definitely not be voting for Green or Labour (in case they went into coalition).

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  62. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Gulag
    You say that, but the rate of violent crime has actually decreased.

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  63. wat dabney (3,756 comments) says:

    It’s life you disgusting faithless zealot.

    What a surprise. It’s a religious thing.

    A cluster of cells is not ‘a life’ and it is certainly not a baby or a person.

    Now, ‘the National Institutes of Health report that “around half of all fertilized eggs die and are lost (aborted) spontaneously, usually before the woman knows she is pregnant.”‘
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miscarriage

    That is the context for this subject.

    Your invisible magic pixie is sprinkling its magical pixie dust over all these hundreds of millions of women and then aborting the “baby” before it is even born? Not to mention all the actual babies and children it has murdered with its bacteria and viruses over the millenia. And then consigning all these “unsaved” souls to an eternity of torment in Hell.

    So I don’t think we need any lectures from daemon worshippers like yourself, thank you.

    Perhaps we can get back to medical science and philosophy?

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  64. Redbaiter (8,801 comments) says:

    How typical that the arrogant braindead zealot who uses Kwiblog GD as a vehicle to bore people with his anti-religious obsession every chance he can equates the multi-faceted word faith with religious belief.

    In fact your obsession blinds you to reason as much as you claim this happens in people who are religious.

    But it doesn’t matter, you get me?

    Every day every issue, no matter what the real dispute, you attempt to turn to your hatred of religion, like your equally obsessive friend Narsekissa. I don’t need it. You sound like a stone being shaken in an empty coke can.

    You’re just an assembly line atheist bore, who is only remarkable for the arrogance he projects.

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  65. Gulag1917 (915 comments) says:

    mikenmild
    According to statistics and we know about that. As a rule in the first world, violence is on the increase. There is some bizarre stuff happening in the violence category as a result of brain damaged and drug affected people. Look out when the boom is over because self restraint is fast disappearing.

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  66. ross411 (834 comments) says:

    For all the anti-abortion proponents, have you ever had an abortion? One thing I get from the interviews at the besieged American abortion clinics, where the violent and hostile protesters threaten their lives, is that often people they’ve seen standing outside come in and get abortions.. then are back outside protesting at a later date.

    It’s going to happen, how safely it happens is the question. If it prevents another neglected child reaching our school system barely able to speak correctly, I’ll subsidise it through my taxes. Bad parenting by people who would be better to be able to opt out, affects us all.

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  67. wat dabney (3,756 comments) says:

    Red,

    I’m not sure that red-faced coughing and spluttering actually amounts to a refutation.

    We can never be sure if you are attempting to muster an argument or simply choking on a McNugget.

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  68. Redbaiter (8,801 comments) says:

    Leaving aside your misunderstanding of the word faith, why would I want to “refute” an obsessive bore, who even for an atheist projects an off putting degree of condescension and arrogance?

    It would only encourage you.

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  69. stephieboy (3,013 comments) says:

    Redbaiter, you seem not to comprehend that KB is about debating different points of view openly and often fiercely at times.Fortunately this blog is not yours.
    Keep your censorious bubble headed rants and raves to your own blog.
    BTW the present status quo on abortion in N Z is about right and is the best we will ever get.

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  70. big bruv (13,884 comments) says:

    Bedwetter.

    I always have an argument, and, it is always consistent.

    You however Bedwetter have made all sorts of outrageous claims over the years and cannot substantiate any of them. Just today you have been caught out again, you used to pretend you were agnostic yet only now we find out that you are a born again bible basher.
    As for being a narcissist, well I will leave others to decide that, however it is generally considered that those who insist on talking about themselves in the third person (as you do) display classic narcissistic traits.

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  71. Gulag1917 (915 comments) says:

    The US is different regarding protests, NZ protests to my knowledge are far more peaceful. Aborting a baby is not that clinical because a lot of women suffer depression and guilt as a result of aborting their babies. Some great people that I know would not have born if the callous and easy option had been taken. Abortion is now an industry making a lot of people wealthy.

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  72. wat dabney (3,756 comments) says:

    According to statistics and we know about that. As a rule in the first world, violence is on the increase.

    Quite the reverse. In fact, the more common problem is how to explain the significant decline in crime, including violent crime. And of course, the availability of abortion is one theory here.

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  73. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    Gulag1917 (452 comments) says:
    June 7th, 2014 at 10:30 am
    Societies are becoming increasingly violent because we do not respect life from the start.

    Actually, in the history of human societies, the current society is a lot less violent.

    The increase in ‘violence’ is assessed by an increase in reported violence. 30 years ago a couple of blokes could sort a difference of opinion out in the carpark and no police would be called. Today, both would probably be charged with a violent offence.

    Violence is not on the increase – and if anything is probably a lot less than the previous millennium.

    It is not the respect for life that has changed, we are innately geared to ‘respect life’, however, we do that by protecting ourselves, and our needs.

    In reference to abortions – yes there are far more medically induced abortions – but there are a hell of lot less ‘abortion butcher’ jobs, and women taking a variety of concoctions to end a pregnancy than used to be done. I would go so far as to suggest that there are probably a hell of a lot less abortions today, due to contraception etc.

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  74. Redbaiter (8,801 comments) says:

    Sissieboy, if you really wish so badly to attract my attention, here’s a hint. Try submitting a comment that contains an argument, and preferably that argument should make a point regarding the subject under discussion. Otherwise I’ll just continue to skim read and forget. Always my preference when it comes to cardboard cutout assembly line Progressives anyway.

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  75. Redbaiter (8,801 comments) says:

    After about a five hundred percent increase in violence over the last few decades, the progs are trumpeting a barely credible drop of a few points in rates of violent crime as a success.

    Morons again.

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  76. Southern Raider (1,829 comments) says:

    Wat Dabney how come scans are done at 8 weeks then showing the fetus and heart if it’s just a lump of cells?

    What fuckin bullshit. Anything after a couple of weeks is killing a baby.

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  77. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    This question is addressed to those who are against abortion –

    how many children have you adopted/fostered ?

    Have any of you ever complained about having to pay so much tax – or the rate of welfare in New Zealand?

    How do you feel about the amount of violence on NZ children?

    Have you ever made a derogatory statement about solo mothers?

    In short, rather than just spout on, have any of you actually done a substantial amount of positive things to assist women who end up pregnant with a child they do not want?

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  78. Southern Raider (1,829 comments) says:

    Judith what bullshit. There is a long line of couples who would love to adopt but can’t because of Govt policy and left wing nonsense. Why do you think people adopt kids from overseas if there is such a big supply in NZ?

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  79. Gulag1917 (915 comments) says:

    Abortion is far from ideal. Liberals are committing suicide because of their own low birthrate not surprising the more radical ones are advocating unrestricted immigration.

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  80. Scott (1,792 comments) says:

    Couple of things from me. The Greens are perfectly consistent in their philosophy. They lift up animal life and the environment to the level of the sacred. Meanwhile they denigrate humanity as polluters of the earth and despoilers of the environment. In other words they want less people and more animals.

    There’s is a world view which is definitely religious, they hold the environment to be sacred, they are modern pagans. They are Christian in that they want to return to the pristine unspoiled garden of Eden, but they are atheist in that they want it without God.
    Abortion is a natural outcome of their environment worshipping world view. More brown spotted owls, a lot less people.

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  81. big bruv (13,884 comments) says:

    “Try submitting a comment that contains an argument, and preferably that argument should make a point regarding the subject under discussion.”

    Lol, this from a man whose response to any argument put forward is to repeat the same tired old bullshit about “progressives or Marxists”

    You always bang on about freedom Bedwetter (when you are not confusing your nationality and labouring under the misapprehension that you actually have a say about what goes on in the USA) yet the very way of life you so inarticulately support is one that is anything other than free.
    What you want (and this comes through repeatedly in religious teachings) is for the rest of us to be forced to live by the rules set down in your bible, you want “freedom” just as long as that freedom is defined by you and the rest of your religious nutbars.
    So warped is your mind by these fools that you are incapable of looking at any issue through anything than conservative religious tinted glasses. A classic example of this is your continued assertion that Obama is a Kenyan, or that Sarah Palin is anything other than a total moron.

    It really must suck to be you Bedwetter, living in constant fear that there are reds under your bed, or in your more delusionary phases thinking that there are those of us who are coming to “grab your guns” as if you had some second amendment right to keep and bear arms in Tauranga.

    Having said all that Bedwetter, I do hope you do not run away again claiming that you will never be back to Kiwiblog, your “contributions” here are always a great source of mirth and often provide a damn good belly laugh. I guess in some ways I should feel sorry for you given that most here laugh at you rather than with you but given the torrent of hate and bile you keep spewing out (as a substitute for any reasoned argument) I have no problem pushing aside any sympathy I should have for you (even allowing for your obviously deteriorating mental condition)

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  82. nasska (11,478 comments) says:

    ….”Liberals are committing suicide because of their own low birthrate”…..

    So the obvious answer is to force women to carry unwanted foetuses full term. Presumably then they are adopted out to all the infertile couples (so long as those couples are God fearing & not gay).

    According to DPF’s post there are nearly 15K abortions each year. Does anyone seriously think that there’s likely to be & equivalent number of prospective adoptive or fostering married couples? What happens when their numbers dwindle?

    I know…..let’s see if some of the Godnutters want to open holding pens like the ones exposed in Tuam, Ireland recently. After all they worked out real well for all involved.

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  83. CraigM (694 comments) says:

    David Garrett has it right, all the pontificating will not change the view point of one person participating in this thread.
    No other subject creates the hate filled swill that fills an abortion thread.

    However, if one is to stand up for what one believes in, then shout it from the roof and be heard, for silence means consent.

    Some believe life is cheap and expendable, others that life is sacrosanct. Those two poles will never meet.

    I’ll stand up. Abortion is wrong in my mind and my heart. I wish no human being ever felt the need to kill, or found it so easy to do so, but as a race, we do. I feel sad.

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  84. big bruv (13,884 comments) says:

    When one considers the number of kids born to feral parents in NZ there is a bloody good argument to suggest that we do not have nearly enough abortions.

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  85. big bruv (13,884 comments) says:

    nasska

    “I know…..let’s see if some of the Godnutters want to open holding pens like the ones exposed in Tuam, Ireland recently. After all they worked out real well for all involved.”

    I did wonder who might raise this, I note that Lucia and the rest of the apologists for Catholicism have remained remarkably quiet on this issue.

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  86. Gulag1917 (915 comments) says:

    There has been a 63% increase in abortions since 1985 The NZ population has only increased about 25% since that time. The education e.g. contraception has been a failure and abortion is being used as means of contraception.

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  87. gump (1,647 comments) says:

    @Rebaiter

    It’s time to test your general knowledge.

    Which small island country permits abortion on demand without any legal restrictions up to 24 weeks gestation, doesn’t require parental consent from minors who request abortions, and recorded almost 11,000 abortions in 2012?

    The answer is Singapore.

    You have told us often that Singapore is your model for a modern society. Would you care to explain why your model society has fewer restrictions on abortion than NZ?

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  88. Viking2 (11,467 comments) says:

    Slow blog day again.
    Must be the’ve decided on abortion as today’s topic.
    Yep all the god nutters et all will be here until the rugby starts.
    How soon can we start the rugby?

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  89. CraigM (694 comments) says:

    Judith, I’ll play.

    In order of your questions:

    14, all of them from families where they suffered horrible abuse.
    Yes, because welfare has become a lifestyle choice and an enabler, instead of the hand up it was intended to be.
    It disgusts me. Adults who abuse children should be locked away for a very long time.
    No, I was raised by one as were my brothers. In the days before DPB! My Mother is the most amazing women you would ever meet.

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  90. Jack5 (5,137 comments) says:

    Diversion!

    Dairy prices and log prices falling as election approaches, get the voters’ minds off the economy.

    For the Greens, too, get people off the economic disaster they would cause.

    Abort discussion of the real issues by promoting an abortion debate.

    Re Gump at 12.05 on Singapore. Perhaps its abortion policy reflects this republic’s tiny land area, and the consequent need to restrain population growth.

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  91. gump (1,647 comments) says:

    @CraigM

    “14, all of them from families where they suffered horrible abuse.”

    ————————–

    I just wanted to thank you for you for doing this work.

    Fostering kids with problems is work that is critically important to our society but often disregarded.

    Thanks again!

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  92. kowtow (8,439 comments) says:

    Interesting how pro abortionists here are happy to attack the “statism” of so called limited legislated abortion but are happy to have the statism (taxpayer)of funding these procedures open slather,or more appropriately open slaughter.

    If as some commentators have noted the issue is too hard for parliament (what are they there for if they can’t make hard decisions) then let’s put it to the electorate ,because in a democracy that’s where decisions should be made.

    Can’t have referenda, we have to let the “state” decide how our lives are run!What would our permanent political class do if decisions were left to us plebs?

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  93. adze (2,126 comments) says:

    “Can’t have referenda, we have to let the “state” decide how our lives are run!What would our permanent political class do if decisions were left to us plebs?”

    And if the result of such a referendum supported legalised reform of abortion laws, would you accept it?

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  94. Jack5 (5,137 comments) says:

    Abortion is a traumatic, expensive, and IMHO brutal substitute for contraception, which is widely and readily available.

    If abortion is to become still more legal and accepted, could there be a tax on it, with the money raised going to help families?

    If not, we are going to happily accept the country’s birth rate diving below replacement rate? If so, why not just advertise the country for sale and then enjoy a big piss-up until the last of us becomes extinct. Or are perhaps we already selling it – for free?

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  95. kowtow (8,439 comments) says:

    “Would you accept it?”

    Stupid question.

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  96. adze (2,126 comments) says:

    kowtow; Ok, let’s assume I’m stupid. Would you accept the result, or would you revert to your usual religious opposition? In which case; why would you give a shit whether a decision to fully legalise is democratic or not?

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  97. big bruv (13,884 comments) says:

    I hope those who advocate fewer, or no abortions are looking at all of the possible consequences.

    Recently we had a law passed that enabled two blokes or two chicks to be married, one of the reasons this bill was so strongly supported by the gay community was that it took away one of the last barriers to gay or lesbian adoption.

    As things stand now there is little chance that any gay or lesbian couple would ever be given a child to adopt, there are simply not enough babies who are put up for adoption, however, imagine what would happen if there were a further 14,000 kids born each year who were unwanted. A good number of these kids would be put up for adoption, very quickly the supply would exceed demand and we would see lots of babies given to gay or lesbian couples.

    I can imagine the outrage that would cause.

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  98. Fentex (971 comments) says:

    My view is abortion should be legal, safe and rare.

    That’s a worthy ambition, but it begs several questions on the topic. One of them being; Why should it be rare?

    Some people think it should be so because it’s discouraged. I think it should be so because all pregnancies are desired and complete with birth into caring homes.

    I think women should be supported by education and resource to have control over their fertility, to be protected from coercion by education about sexual behaviours. To have contraception easily available. To be in control so that they choose pregnancy.

    It is the most effective way to reduce demand for abortion. Trying to hide from sex and it’s implications, trying to legislate against humanity is as if standing at the shore and yelling for the tide not to come in.

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  99. Jack5 (5,137 comments) says:

    Hell, big bruv (12.54 post), are you saying you would rather a pre-child was aborted than it was born and brought up by a homosexual couple – any homosexual couple?

    That’s pretty drastic.

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  100. Scott (1,792 comments) says:

    If we are going to exclude religion could we have one thread on abortion that is not mindlessly hijacked by the atheists? Also perhaps we should have a thread that excludes homosexuals since they tend not to have to worry themselves about this issue?

    Seriously nothing shows “tolerance” like the intolerance of those who pride themselves on their “tolerance”. But fear not atheists,if you get into power then the arrests of the Christians and others who bother about God will surely start immediately. It’s what you tend to do.

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  101. Bingo99 (88 comments) says:

    So, Redbaiter is generally recognized as an all-round tool, right? He hurls abuse like “knuckle dragging progressives” around – surely a contradiction in terms, all the while questioning other’s understanding of words.

    I gladly consider myself as a progressive. Which raises the question… What are you Redbaiter? Regressive? To the point where perhaps your knuckles are scraping along the ground?

    Oh, and abortion? Literally none of your damn business. None. Get another hobby.

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  102. Nukuleka (325 comments) says:

    By calling for the decriminalisation of abortion the Greens show that they have a more humane policy towards the rights of animals than they do towards the rights of that most vulnerable of human beings, the unborn child. The most dangerous place for New Zealanders to be these days is in their mother’s womb. What an appalling indictment of the vicious anti-life and pro-death culture that we now have in our country.

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  103. kowtow (8,439 comments) says:

    Again. Stupid question.

    Why would I advocate referenda if I wouldn’t accept the outcome?

    “revert to usual religious opposition” Really ? Where? back up that assertion in relation to abortion debate.

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  104. big bruv (13,884 comments) says:

    Jack 5

    No I am not saying that, all I am doing is highlighting what those who appose all abortion might have overlooked.

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  105. adze (2,126 comments) says:

    Scott

    If we are going to exclude religion could we have one thread on abortion that is not mindlessly hijacked by the atheists?

    I’m sure most atheists and agnostics would be quite happy for everyone to have a say, regardless of their religious persuasion, as long as their personal beliefs about God (or the lack of it) didn’t have to come into a subject that has absolutely nothing to do with it.

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  106. Redbaiter (8,801 comments) says:

    Hey Viking2, are you as smart as Adolf Hitler do you think, or was he smarter than you?

    I don’t think you were educated in the modern progressive system, so you probably know that Hitler lost the Second World War.

    Why did he lose it? One reason was that he tried to fight it on too many fronts. Attacking Russia was a major tactical error.

    Now if you want to make the same mistakes as Adolf, then you go on attacking the Christians, who are one of our major allies against the Progs, who are the real enemy.

    I say Progs are the real enemy because you don’t have to be Einstein to know that Christians have zero power today. The Progs have all the power. Look at every infringement upon our traditional liberties that occurs today and the Progs are behind it.

    So even if you do believe that the Christians, who formed the base of our present society, and made it the most free society in the western world, if they ever again attract social and political ascendancy are going to threaten you more than the progs do today, then good sense should still suggest that you decide which force you need to fight right now.

    Hitler should have chosen between London and Stalingrad. You need to choose between the Christians and The Progressives.

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  107. adze (2,126 comments) says:

    @kowtow
    “Why would I advocate referenda if I wouldn’t accept the outcome?”

    Fantastic. We’re done here then.

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  108. LabourDoesntWork (290 comments) says:

    Idiot gape jawed white Europeans who can’t wait to wipe themselves off the face of the earth.
    The future belongs to those who show up for it.

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  109. JMS (330 comments) says:

    Redbaiter,

    why do we need to choose between Progs and Christian traditionalists?

    I don’t want either of those nanny state options.

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  110. gump (1,647 comments) says:

    @Redbaiter

    “Look at every infringement upon our traditional liberties that occurs today and the Progs are behind it.”

    ———————–

    We have more liberty today than at any time in New Zealand’s history.

    There is no such thing as “traditional liberty”. It has never existed except in your febrile imagination.

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  111. wat dabney (3,756 comments) says:

    Southern Raider,

    Wat Dabney how come scans are done at 8 weeks then showing the fetus and heart if it’s just a lump of cells? What fuckin bullshit. Anything after a couple of weeks is killing a baby.

    Since you are in agreement with me, in that it’s all about when a “clump of cells” becomes a “baby”, it’s not exactly clear what “fuckin bullshit” refers to.

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  112. Redbaiter (8,801 comments) says:

    “why do we need to choose between Progs and Christian traditionalists?”

    I just put about three hundred words into explaining that to you you time wasting irrational non-comprehending uneducated fool.

    If you want to disagree with the theory fine, but obviously that part of it just bounced of your thick impenetrable skull.

    BTW, I don’t know many Christians who are “nanny staters”. That’s the province of Progressives.

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  113. big bruv (13,884 comments) says:

    ” I don’t know many Christians who are “nanny staters”. ”

    Clearly you don’t get out much then.

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  114. big bruv (13,884 comments) says:

    ““Look at every infringement upon our traditional liberties that occurs today and the Progs are behind it.”

    Name five then.

    Remember Bedwetter, these must be five liberties that the “Progs” have taken off New Zealanders.

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  115. wat dabney (3,756 comments) says:

    Red,

    If you think we should support Christians because of their anti-Progressive stance let me tell you about this other group, called “Muslims”, whose traditionalist views you’ll find even more attractive.

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  116. kowtow (8,439 comments) says:

    No adze ,we’re not done ,you fascist.

    Who decided you make the rules about who can discuss an issue and on what basis!

    Furthermore, we’re not done ,you claimed I, “revert to usual religious opposition” Again, back that up!

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  117. kowtow (8,439 comments) says:

    “The future belongs to those who show up for it”

    Quite right. Abort the future and import the balance.Green policy.labour policy,National policy.

    Paid for by the taxpayer who is deliberately excluded from a say in the matter.

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  118. graham71 (12 comments) says:

    I am not a religious person
    But I am not in favour of abortians
    When u have seen a 12 week scan with their finger nails and their face so clearly I don’t know how you could do it
    When you are a parent and the emotions that go with that then maybe you will understand

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  119. big bruv (13,884 comments) says:

    graham71

    So a female who is raped should not be afforded the right to abort?

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  120. adze (2,126 comments) says:

    @kowtow
    “Furthermore, we’re not done ,you claimed I, “revert to usual religious opposition” Again, back that up!”

    Happily withdrawn with apology.

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  121. Redbaiter (8,801 comments) says:

    “let me tell you about this other group, called “Muslims”, whose traditionalist views you’ll find even more attractive.”

    If you can’t tell the difference between Christians and Muslims Wat then that’s yet another instance of your zealotry clouding your reason.

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  122. Redbaiter (8,801 comments) says:

    “Name five then.”

    Easy.

    You, Narsekissa, TheDavaselinemode, Milkenmild, Chardonnay Guy and Bingo99.

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  123. Redbaiter (8,801 comments) says:

    “We have more liberty today than at any time in New Zealand’s history.”

    Just a really stupid thing to say.

    I usually choose to ignore your stupidity Gump but this example takes the cake.

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  124. Southern Raider (1,829 comments) says:

    Big Bruv how many of the 14000 do you think were rape babies? Not many if any I would suggest.

    The vast majority are just a surgical way to get rid of an inconvenience. Is that a good excuse for murder?

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  125. big bruv (13,884 comments) says:

    Bedwetter

    So it looks like I have caught you out again telling lies, you really should stop this.

    I will however give you one more chance, name five of these liberties that you no longer enjoy as a New Zealander?

    I bet you can’t.

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  126. kowtow (8,439 comments) says:

    adze

    Fair enough. Thank you.Now ,to fulfill Vikings’ bigoted prediction,I’m off to the footie.

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  127. Redbaiter (8,801 comments) says:

    Please go away Bruv- if you had a modicum of intelligence you would grasp the simple point that I’m done with your constant strawmen.

    #tiresome #boring #timewasting #bigmouthedfool #bigot #ignorant #stupid

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  128. big bruv (13,884 comments) says:

    raider

    So are you also seeking to deny rape victims the right to abort their unwanted foetus?

    You also need to give yourself an uppercut, abortion is not murder.

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  129. David Garrett (7,271 comments) says:

    Perfect timing…Red, would you be kind enough to list those who regularly comment here who you DON’T think are “Progs”?

    Thanks very much..

    (yes, yes, we know I am one and a crybaby to boot, but that’s not the question)

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  130. Redbaiter (8,801 comments) says:

    Oh, BTW, missed out Fot, another of Big Bruv’s identities here on Kiwiblog. (But then he did only ask for 5)

    And I could also list the 15 or so other identities he had on that other forum he was banned from, but I don’t know what names he was using then.

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  131. Redbaiter (8,801 comments) says:

    Dave, these guys aren’t progs. Look closely. Maybe I’m in this video:

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  132. nasska (11,478 comments) says:

    The senile old fool has completely lost the last of his comprehension skills…..the question was about lost “liberties”….not “identities”.

    Glad I could clear that up for you.

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  133. Johnboy (16,516 comments) says:

    I just think that it’s just a damned shame that Russel’s, Metiria’s, Gareth’s, Cath’s, Julie’s, Jan’s, Holly’s and Kev’s mummies never had the choice of abortion! :)

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  134. big bruv (13,884 comments) says:

    Come on Bedwetter, all I did was to ask you to name five liberties that you have had taken from you.

    Tell you what, I will make it easy for you, instead of naming five why not name two.

    Again, I would be willing to wager that you cannot.

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  135. Redbaiter (8,801 comments) says:

    Bruv, you can ask me questions until the cows come home.

    I don’t mind arguing the point with people I respect, but one day you’ll get that I choose not to engage with cowards liars and cheats.

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  136. Chuck Bird (4,880 comments) says:

    @adze

    Would you accept the results of a binding referendum on this issue or other issues that are usually determined by a conscience vote. I have yet to see proof that the majority of them have a conscience.

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  137. nasska (11,478 comments) says:

    ….”One day you’ll get that I choose not to engage with cowards liars and cheats”….

    Translation for those not used to Baiterish:

    ….”I was full of shit but didn’t expect to get called out on it”…..

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  138. big bruv (13,884 comments) says:

    Bedwetter

    “One day you’ll get that I choose not to engage with cowards liars and cheats”

    And yet, you cannot stop yourself replying. The hilarious part being that in doing so you only prove my point that you are a liar.

    I will continue to point out your lies and bullshit Bedwetter, all you have to do to stop me doing so is either admit that you are lying or answer the questions I pose.

    So, back to todays little gem, can you name two (only two) of the liberties you have had taken from you under the “progs”?

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  139. David Garrett (7,271 comments) says:

    Did you ever work on anything bigger than that rinky dink thing running spaghetti Red? I thought the least you could do was find a film showing an old fashioned standard derrick running 5 1/2 inch pipe…

    But I didn’t ask about the hearty lads you corralled in PNG….I asked you to tell us who you regard as NOT being “Progs” here..

    If the answer is “there aren’t any who reach my [your] high standard” then that will do..

    Meanwhile 135 comments, and no-one has changed anyone’s mind on abortion…But one or two poignant comments amid the dross

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  140. adze (2,126 comments) says:

    Chuck Bird, if it was a majority democratic decision, I would accept it, even if I didn’t personally agree with it.

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  141. big bruv (13,884 comments) says:

    “But one or two poignant comments amid the dross”

    How very nice of you to say so David. :)

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  142. David Garrett (7,271 comments) says:

    BB; Really mate….this thread is hardly KB at its best is it?

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  143. Redbaiter (8,801 comments) says:

    Dave considering the only lever they ever let you pull on a rig was the one on the end of a grease gun you should STFU about rinky dink things.

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  144. big bruv (13,884 comments) says:

    DG

    Nope, but I always enjoy pointing out the never ending list of lies spouted by the pensioner from Tauranga.

    Actually, the thread was doing OK until he turned up with his list of high rotate abusive phrases.

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  145. adze (2,126 comments) says:

    Wow, a downvote for espousing a democratic principle. And to think I was earlier called a fascist :)

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  146. Johnboy (16,516 comments) says:

    You may have a Minus flea of your own adze? :)

    Gave you a two to cheer you up! :)

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  147. thedavincimode (6,759 comments) says:

    So a female who is raped should not be afforded the right to abort?

    bb, that is often trotted out by those pro, but it is a red herring.

    The fundamental ethical contest is between protecting the unborn child and allowing a mother to terminate. Whether the foetus comes into being as a consequence of a rape makes no difference. One can hardly attribute the sins of the father to the unborn child, which is precisely what that argument does. Even were that a valid proposition, it seems a bit tough in the absence of a death sentence for rape.

    Similarly, effectively defining “life” in terms of the stage of development of the foetus is another red herring of convenience. At the extreme margin where one day can determine the ability to terminate or not, it is a very arbitrary convenience. Whatever arbitrary thresholds are assigned, it is a human life form.

    Abortion within the prescribed time limits is not equivalent to taking a dump. The choice is between a legalised killing of an unborn child that cannot protect itself and allowing a woman to control what happens to her body. The debate can have no integrity unless it is approached on those terms. All the red herrings that are tossed up are merely a mechanism to avoid confronting the real point at issue.

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  148. stephieboy (3,013 comments) says:

    I see anyone Redbaier takes umbrage with is demonized as a ” prog”! as he gushes fortth with his reasoned debating and rational skill base..

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  149. altiora (279 comments) says:

    Apart from instances of rape and to avert genuine medical problems, I have never understood why there is so much demand for abortion given contraceptives are so freely available. I recall my mother, a 1950s feminist, saying that her generation fought so hard for contraceptives and education so that women were able to control their reproduction without needing to seek abortions — whether backstreet or DIY at home. To her abortions were the remedy of last resort and came at tremendous moral and emotional cost, so the be avoided like the plague.

    I’m not a “pro-lifer” but I cannot understand why we need to change the law.

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  150. Johnboy (16,516 comments) says:

    A prog love song to sooth Red’s anger! :)

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  151. big bruv (13,884 comments) says:

    “Whether the foetus comes into being as a consequence of a rape makes no difference.”

    Right!!!!

    Good luck with that argument.

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  152. thedavincimode (6,759 comments) says:

    Well exactly bb. That’s my point about the so-called “debate”.

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  153. adze (2,126 comments) says:

    altiora, actually abortion rates have been falling since 2007, with 2012 (the latest figure available) being the lowest since 1995:

    http://www.stats.govt.nz/browse_for_stats/health/abortion/AbortionStatistics_HOTPYeDec12.aspx

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  154. thedavincimode (6,759 comments) says:

    JB

    He won’t get to the song. The directing of the opening water scene will be enough to send him into turmoil.

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  155. wat dabney (3,756 comments) says:

    davincimode,

    You don’t explain why ‘defining “life” in terms of the stage of development of the foetus is another red-herring.’

    It’s just a breezy assertion.

    Whatever arbitrary thresholds are assigned, it is a human life form.

    This is obviously false. A fertilised egg and a smear of cells may be potential humans, but they are most obviously not humans.

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  156. altiora (279 comments) says:

    adze: got nothing to do with falling rates, 14,000 is still an enormous number. Is there actual evidence that the 14,000 represents rapes and genuine medical problems?

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  157. thedavincimode (6,759 comments) says:

    There ya go wat. You haven’t disappointed me.

    So at which particularly nano-second in its development does it cease to be a “potential” human and become an “actual” human. The time of birth? When the kid is old enough to drive you home from the pub?

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  158. David Garrett (7,271 comments) says:

    Stephieboy: Quite so…and when politely asked to identify the “Non-progs” here he changes the subject…he’s good at that…

    How far down could you get with that toy Russell? 2000 metres below KB? (that’s nothing to do with Kiwiblog chaps)

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  159. nasska (11,478 comments) says:

    ….”The choice is between a legalised killing of an unborn child that cannot protect itself and allowing a woman to control what happens to her body”….

    That’s the argument in a nutshell. The reality however is that a middle ground doesn’t exist….we either toe the feminist line which treats abortion as another form of birth control or the line peddled by the Godwhacks to the effect that abortion must never be considered.

    The present legislation, imperfect as it is, infuriates all yet pleases no one. Small wonder parliament won’t touch it with a bargepole.

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  160. thedavincimode (6,759 comments) says:

    How far down could you get with that toy Russell

    I doubt he holds back DG, in which case he would jam it in all the way up to the switch.

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  161. Redbaiter (8,801 comments) says:

    Dave, I was freeing pipe stuck in 4000 metre directional wells while you were still figuring out how to unwrap the vacuum packed Black and Decker your wife gave you for Christmas.

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  162. adze (2,126 comments) says:

    “adze: got nothing to do with falling rates, 14,000 is still an enormous number. Is there actual evidence that the 14,000 represents rapes and genuine medical problems?”

    It’s still a high number, when any unwanted pregnancy is unfortunate. “Enormous” is an overstatement, though.
    Doctors are still required to make a recommendation based on the mental state of the woman, but frankly I agree with DPF that it’s a distinction that persists only because the decision to make it fully legal is too fraught, politically.

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  163. big bruv (13,884 comments) says:

    “I was freeing pipe stuck in 4000 metre directional wells while you were still figuring out how to unwrap the vacuum packed Black and Decker your wife gave you for Christmas”

    WOW!!!

    All that and waging a ten year long “war” against the left and having “numerous victories”.

    You were indeed a busy man, now that you have plenty of time on your hands, and before the nurses bring your afternoon tea around would you care to name one of those victories?

    If that proves a bit beyond you how about naming two of the liberties that the “progs” have removed from you?

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  164. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    I think he was banging on the other day about how in the fifties he was free to tote a gun while riding a motorcyle without a helmet.

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  165. Johnboy (16,516 comments) says:

    I used to ride my TS185 from Wainui over to the Mangatoetoe hut with my old 303 over my shoulder in the 70’s and never got pulled up by the cop’s milkey. Don’t scoff at all Red says! :)

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  166. thedavincimode (6,759 comments) says:

    nasska

    There is no middle ground because it is a choice between life and death.

    The rantings of the feminazis and the hypocrite godnazis are equally irrelevant. This is a fundamental ethical issue that has nothing to do with some deranged womin who washes her hair with urine or some hypocritical G**-nutter.

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  167. Redbaiter (8,801 comments) says:

    Its also a matter of traditional chivalry in that it beholds any decent man to protect the innocents unable to protect themselves from the predations of the cruel and selfish.

    Not that any Prog would ever understand that point.

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  168. David Garrett (7,271 comments) says:

    Yes Yes Russell…but I am still patiently waiting for a that list of “Non progs” on here who come up to your exacting standards, and get the “Red Seal” of approval…

    …And you never got anywhere near 4000 metres with that little single stander …Looks more like a water well driller to me…

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  169. Johnboy (16,516 comments) says:

    Red has a good point there.

    I can’t see a situation where all you well intentioned pro-abortionists that squawk here would start impaling babes and children on bayonets if ethnic cleansing became fashionable in NZ.

    Maybe you would! :)

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  170. Redbaiter (8,801 comments) says:

    You don’t really know that much at all do you Dave.

    A water well rig with a triple 3K BOP?

    Maybe you just took a trip out to a rig in a helicopter once right, and thought “oil rig worker” would look good on your political CV?

    BTW, Dave, there’s too many non progs on here to list, but many are non-Christian and many others are Christian.

    That’s one of the many good things about Christianity. It provides a ready made mental bulwark against the progressive brainwashing most of the progs like Narsekissa and the rest are victims of.

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  171. Johnboy (16,516 comments) says:

    How can you get minus 3 for riding your old motorbike from Wainui to the Haurangi’s in 1977 for fucks sake?

    There’s no logic in this shithole! :)

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  172. thedavincimode (6,759 comments) says:

    JB

    Because you probably: 1) weren’t wearing a helmet; 2) were speeding; 3) had been drinking?

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  173. big bruv (13,884 comments) says:

    4) are from Wainui.

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  174. Johnboy (16,516 comments) says:

    None of those Leonardo and I never even shot those two MOT chaps at the top of the Rimutaka Hill or kicked their bodies over into Abbotts Creek! :)

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  175. thedavincimode (6,759 comments) says:

    5) is too close to his flock.

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  176. loonybonkersmad (27 comments) says:

    Maybe no one is seeing the end game here – state ordered abortions. This will keep the population down and prevent those from breeding that the Government take a dislike to. A perfect Left policy then.

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  177. David Garrett (7,271 comments) says:

    Yes, I noticed the large BOP Russell (it’s that big red thing for you other chaps)…I didn’t say it WAS a well weller, I said a little single running 3 1/2 inch pipe LOOKED LIKE a water well driller…and if you tell me you reached 4000 metres with that little thing or something just like it, you are definitely lying…It might get to 4000 feet on a good day…

    Sorry everyone, horribly off topic, but the Mt RSA is a long way from me, so I have engage him here…

    JB: I have just upticked you old man…breathe easy, or you’ll end up like Russell…

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  178. Johnboy (16,516 comments) says:

    Aborting all the future offspring of “Rich Pricks” then loonybonkersmad?

    I like the insane way you’re thinking! :)

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  179. Elaycee (4,392 comments) says:

    Johnboy: How can you get minus 3 for riding your old motorbike from Wainui to the Haurangi’s…

    Envy, Johnboy. Pure envy. Clearly some sad sacks have to rely on their imagination…

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  180. graham71 (12 comments) says:

    I find it ironic that the same people who on finding a faint smell of morality scream GODBOTHER at you
    But when you describe how you find abortion scream what about the rape victims!!!!!!!
    I know of 4 women who in their late teens and early 20s did it
    None where raped
    One killed herself 5 years later
    ( and yes it was a factor but that’s a long story)
    Another has mental health issues
    And before you blame society for not supporting them in the quest to kill their baby’s
    It’s not my fault
    We tell these young women that is not really a life
    But most people aren’t physcopaths
    We care about people
    We don’t like hurting animals
    We don’t kill people because they are inconviant
    They system isn’t helping these women because unless you are one of the 10% physcopaths
    In society it will effect you someday
    Just like a stillbirth does
    Some will be effected more than others
    I believe the system now isn’t helping them enough
    But still it’s better than what happened in the 60’s
    But I am not proud that every year 14000 babies are killed

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  181. Johnboy (16,516 comments) says:

    Always had the hot’s for Karen Black! :)

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  182. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    When you talk about ‘babies killed’ it is pretty clear which side of the dabte you are coming from.

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  183. Johnboy (16,516 comments) says:

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  184. Redbaiter (8,801 comments) says:

    Here’s a tune for you Johnboy.

    Angela Strehli- Stand By Your Woman Man

    Its real music, not that prog 60s shit with words made up from newspaper cuttings thrown into the air.

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  185. Johnboy (16,516 comments) says:

    Not bad Red. But she’ll never be as sexy as Karen was! :)

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  186. Redbaiter (8,801 comments) says:

    She wasn’t bad when younger-

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  187. Johnboy (16,516 comments) says:

    Obviously the thinking mans bit of crumpet Red! :)

    (Mind you I’d have given her a bash in my younger days) :)

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  188. graham71 (12 comments) says:

    Again you miss the point
    I am in favour of choice
    But I believe that you better have a good reason to kill your baby
    Not that’s it inconvivent
    Because news flash
    Children require time, attention and money
    They can be inconvivent
    Be give purpose to your life
    When you have children you will understand

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  189. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Again, when you use words like ‘kill your baby’ it’s difficult to believe that you are in favour of choice.

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  190. big bruv (13,884 comments) says:

    graham71

    It is either incredibly arrogant, or stupid of you to suggest that those who are against abortion are all childless?

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  191. Johnboy (16,516 comments) says:

    Obviously milkey you would prefer the weasel words “curettage of your baby” ! :)

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  192. Johnboy (16,516 comments) says:

    Likely because you’re a union man and honesty is lower in your order of importance than it is for the rest of us! :)

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  193. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Termination of a foetus, Johnboy.

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  194. Johnboy (16,516 comments) says:

    Altered your stance already milkey?

    A man of dubious commitment to the cause obviously! :)

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  195. Johnboy (16,516 comments) says:

    Lefty bastards are always shifty bastards. Depends what powerblock is handing out the sentences of course! :)

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  196. graham71 (12 comments) says:

    I find it hard to conceive any parent killing their baby or condone someone killing their baby
    That’s why I assume they are childless
    Liberals don’t always get Tory’s like me
    I hate abbortion
    But am pro choice
    Pro gay marriage
    But find homosexuality distasteful

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  197. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    If you are having a debate about abortion it might be a good idea to avoid loaded language. But when most such debates come down to “abortion is murder” versus “no, it’s not” then it is hard to see how a debate can progress.
    All power to the Greens for wanting the law to reflect what is actually tolerated by society, but I can’t see any other parties wanting to join in.

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  198. gump (1,647 comments) says:

    @milkenmild

    It’s a classic example of good policy, but bad politics.

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  199. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Yes, it’s hard to see this as any kind of a vote winner.

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  200. nasska (11,478 comments) says:

    Just been discussing this with my oldest granddaughter (single 22 yo) who’s paying a visit. Her comment:

    “If men had to carry for nine months then give birth there’d be more abortion clinics than McDonalds restaurants”.

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  201. Johnboy (16,516 comments) says:

    How would you suggest then that the debate re “curettage” of the foetus continue milkey?

    I promise to keep Catholicism out of the debate! :)

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  202. Johnboy (16,516 comments) says:

    She could be on to something there nasska….”Foetus Burgers”..next best thing after scoffing the placenta! :)

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  203. nasska (11,478 comments) says:

    graham71

    The Left vs Right, Liberal vs Tory divides are not much use in this debate. There’s a shitload of factors that influence attitudes to abortion & politics is not a very strong one.

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  204. dad4justice (8,214 comments) says:

    Your comment at 4-59 graham71 sums up the situation nicely.

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  205. Harriet (4,969 comments) says:

    “……..“It’s life you disgusting faithless zealot.”

    What a surprise. It’s a religious thing………A cluster of cells is not ‘a life’ and it is certainly not a baby or a person…..”

    LOL Wat:

    Life doesn’t start at conception as EVERYTHING needed for a NEW homosapien is already LIVING within the parents!

    Life is PASSED ON Wat – all biology students KNOW that!!

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  206. Johnboy (16,516 comments) says:

    graham71 will never get a job at the UN! :)

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  207. dad4justice (8,214 comments) says:

    Johnboy you must be queer to get a job at the UN.

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  208. nasska (11,478 comments) says:

    You’ve just “PASSED ON” a whole lot of life into your hand Harriet…..get a grip on yourself. :)

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  209. Johnboy (16,516 comments) says:

    Think of all the future great Murri politicians Shane condemned to the Kleenex nasska! :)

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  210. nasska (11,478 comments) says:

    He wiped out the equivalent of a small civilisation the first time he watched “Debbie Does Dallas” JB. :)

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  211. Harriet (4,969 comments) says:

    “……The choice is between a legalised killing of an unborn child that cannot protect itself and allowing a woman to control what happens to her body…..

    ……..it seems a bit tough in the absence of a death sentence for rape……..”

    Davincimode.

    Her choice is made BEFORE conception – to take contraceptives or not. – As a death sentance can’t be passed onto a child for rape —- as you also said—— then how can a death sentance be passed onto the child for contraceptive failure of all things?

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  212. RichardX (326 comments) says:

    Harriet (4,174 comments) says:
    June 7th, 2014 at 5:11 pm
    Life doesn’t start at conception as EVERYTHING needed for a NEW homosapien is already LIVING within the parents!
    Life is PASSED ON Wat – all biology students KNOW that!!

    Last time you spouted that crap you couldn’t provide any evidence….any different this time?

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  213. Johnboy (16,516 comments) says:

    We only had cotton hankies when I first watched that epic nasska! :)

    Jesus I must be getting old!

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  214. nasska (11,478 comments) says:

    Harriet

    ….”Her choice is made BEFORE conception – to take contraceptives or not.”…..

    So all women should be on the pill just in case they’re raped?

    You’re barking mad!

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  215. ShawnLH (4,998 comments) says:

    “If you are having a debate about abortion it might be a good idea to avoid loaded language. But when most such debates come down to “abortion is murder”

    That’s not loaded language, just a statement of fact.

    “Termination of a foetus, Johnboy.”

    You can’t have a good debate by engaging in dishonesty. Killing a baby is killing a baby. Using dishonest language to cover that up is a poor way to engage in debate.

    But then liberals have never been terribly keen to use honest language. It gets in the way of killing children.

    There is a massive inconsistency in our law that rightly makes killing a human being murder, but arbitrarily allows for the same killing of a human so long as it is still in the womb.

    This is partly what makes the Greens so hypocritical on this issue. They argued that the anti-smacking legislation simply made children equally to adults in having a right not to be assaulted. But through a totally arbitrary and self-serving definition of what constitutes a human being, they want to increase the number being murdered. So their claims about the antis-smacking legislation were nothing more than dishonest propaganda.

    If our law is to be consent with ethical principles (as opposed to whatever happens to be fashionable) then abortion should be outlawed.

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  216. ShawnLH (4,998 comments) says:

    “A cluster of cells is not ‘a life’ and it is certainly not a baby or a person…..””

    Scientifically speaking, yes it is. Conception creates a growing child. Simple observation of reality shows this clearly and un-arguably. But then science is not your strong point naaaska. When science contradicts your belief system on global warming of the studies by serious Oxford Uni academics that spirituality is natural in children, you dismiss it. Very convenient.

    The technical term for this is hypocrisy. You want to rant about “science” when it suits your anti-religious bigotry, but ignore when it is at odds with your beliefs.

    So we can safely dismiss any argument you make along these lines.

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  217. Johnboy (16,516 comments) says:

    “If our law is to be consent with ethical principles (as opposed to whatever happens to be fashionable) then abortion should be outlawed.”

    Don’t be silly old chap. Having a sprog might interfere with upgrading one’s house or purchasing a new car or boat.
    Heaven forbid a sprog may make one’s planned OE out of the question!

    Save the planet…reduce population pressure….kill the foetus’s I say! :)

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  218. Johnboy (16,516 comments) says:

    Vote Green for more dead babies!!!! :)

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  219. Johnboy (16,516 comments) says:

    Never forget that the Greenies believe that our planet is overpopulated so we should be reducing said population.

    Except for folk that think like them of course! :)

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  220. nasska (11,478 comments) says:

    Shawn

    Whatever Harriet’s got you’ve caught it too.

    “A cluster of cells is not ‘a life’ and it is certainly not a baby or a person…..””

    Where did I state that?

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  221. gump (1,647 comments) says:

    @ShawnLH

    “Scientifically speaking, yes it is. Conception creates a growing child. ”

    ——————

    Actually it doesn’t. It simply creates the potential for a child to develop.

    Not all pregnancies result in a viable foetus. Life is complicated.

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  222. Johnboy (16,516 comments) says:

    I do have to admit that anyone who bothers to look at that bunch of greenie weirdoes during question time could easily be swayed to believe that abortion of the human race may be a sensible option! :)

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  223. graham71 (12 comments) says:

    Again the day I listen to a 22 year old baby (still can’t see the day)
    I am a father of 4
    My wife has the same views in killing baby’s
    It’s not a male/ female thing
    So the old line about 9 months is crap
    You either believe in each life has a value or you don’t
    If you can live with killing/ termination / whichever cuddly buzzword
    Then do it
    But it’s not a free pass

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  224. Harriet (4,969 comments) says:

    “……….Harriet (4,174 comments) says:
    June 7th, 2014 at 5:11 pm
    Life doesn’t start at conception as EVERYTHING needed for a NEW homosapien is already LIVING within the parents!
    Life is PASSED ON Wat – all biology students KNOW that!!

    Last time you spouted that crap you couldn’t provide any evidence….any different this time?….”

    Listen fuck head. If it’s crap – then why do you repeatedly ask for evidence – why don’t you just put up your arguement that shows that what I’m saying is crap? You don’t have one do you fuckhead?

    As I’ve told you before Richard – you have a mental health issue – you only come here and comment on what I have to say – no one else – ever.

    How’s your arsehole ? – did you also know that gays perform sodomy on the outside of their bodies – being that the digestive system is on the outside of the body and includes the arsehole? Sodomy ithen nothing more than a very sick form of mutual masterbation -given that the palm of the hand is also on the outside of the body. Gays are then just wankers – they arn’t born gay are they?

    Were you fully informed by your local GP about arse fucking Richard? Are women fully informed about abortion too Richard?

    Who do you think are the stupid ill informed fucks in society Richard? People like me I suppose?

    Here’s some evidence anyway Richard:

    “……..The saline abortion procedure can only be done at 16 weeks or later when enough fluid is in the amniotic sac surrounding the baby. A long needle is inserted through the mother’s abdomen and the wall of the uterus into the amniotic cavity. As much amniotic fluid as possible, usually about one cup, is withdrawn. Then, a small dose of saline solution is injected. If the woman doesn’t experience any immediate signs of allergic reaction or rejection, the remaining solution is injected into the amniotic sac.
    After the toxic mixture is injected, the baby swallows the salt solution and is poisoned and his skin burned. After suffering for 1 to 1 1/2; hours, the baby’s heartbeat stops. The corrosive effect of the salt solution burns the lungs and strips away the outer layer of the baby’s skin. The mother goes through labor and soon delivers a burned, shriveled and dead baby. The abortion, in medical terms, is considered a success. Because the unborn child’s pain receptors in the nervous system have developed, an unborn child can feel pain at 13 to 14 weeks gestation, well before saline abortions are performed…..”

    Now cunt……..tell me if NZ women are fully informed…….or as stupid as you are?

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  225. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    ‘the digestive system is on the outside of the body’
    Such profound medical knowledge. I stand in awe.

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  226. nasska (11,478 comments) says:

    Medical science has much to learn from this thread Mike. :)

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  227. wat dabney (3,756 comments) says:

    Harriet,

    Do you KNOW that all that alcohol is KILLING LIVING cells?

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  228. David Garrett (7,271 comments) says:

    Call me a prophet…this morning before I took my kids to sport I predicted that by the end of the day we’d have a few hundred comments on this thread…not ONE person would have changed their mind, and none of us would be any the wiser because of the “debate”…I overestimated the numbers a tad (mind you it’s still early) but other than that, spot on doncha think?

    The best things about it have been the “sidebars”…like old music video clips and Red reminiscing about how he freed stuck pipe at 4000 metres…using a rig which wouldn’t have been rated to 4000 feet (that’s metres multiplied by three for all you young bucks)

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  229. Johnboy (16,516 comments) says:

    HOBM chaps get to eat shit whenever Wainui shoves their faces into the mud (if that’s any help regarding anatomy) ! :)

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  230. Harriet (4,969 comments) says:

    Food is absorbed into the body through the walls of the digestive system. The walls of the digestive system are a form of skin. If humans had no bones then you could turn a human inside out. Go read a medical book.

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  231. Johnboy (16,516 comments) says:

    Wat’s correct Harriet. I once had an IQ of 360 before I started my latest job as a Whisky Taster! :)

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  232. RichardX (326 comments) says:

    Harriet, I asked for evidence for your earlier claim. You have provided none. You are making shit up….again

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  233. Harriet (4,969 comments) says:

    Shawn#

    “….The technical term for this is hypocrisy. You want to rant about “science” when it suits your anti-religious bigotry, but ignore when it is at odds with your beliefs….”

    Quite so.

    Gays and abortionists don’t talk about the science behind their deathstyles. Ever.

    “……..mikenmild (9,828 comments) says:
    June 7th, 2014 at 5:59 pm
    ‘the digestive system is on the outside of the body’

    Such profound medical knowledge. I stand in awe……..

    Whenever ‘gay science’ is introduced – all that I ever hear from the gays is silence! There is then presumably – no gay science!!!!

    Gays are just wankers.

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  234. David Garrett (7,271 comments) says:

    What did Pink Floyd once sing? “thirteen channels of shit on the TV to chose from…” and plenty of “wild staring eyes” here…

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  235. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Wow, Harriet said something correct! There is no ‘gay science': there is just science, about which Harriet knows fuck all.

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  236. nasska (11,478 comments) says:

    I don’t know about you DG but watching a mind fall apart beats whatever’s on TV. :)

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  237. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ CraigM (694 comments) says:
    June 7th, 2014 at 12:23 pm

    That is great Craig, and I applaud your stance, but so many of those I see on here criticising abortions, you’ll find on other threads swearing about solo mothers, and the DPB etc.

    You just can’t have it both ways, if people in society are going to be promiscuous, unwanted pregnancies are going to result. Either we support these women to keep their babies, or we support them in terminating the pregnancies, if they have decided that adoption is not something they can do. And lets face it, no matter how much people like to think its a good option, it requires the mother to go through a full term pregnancy and the pain of given a child they have felt move and seen – for some abortion is an easier option.

    There are of course those that feel women should suffer through the pain of giving up a child – as punishment for their promiscuity. Most of them are religious males.

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  238. David Garrett (7,271 comments) says:

    Nasska: You mean like watching Dad4J have a meltdown? Nah…I am a kind caring soul by nature

    I have to admit rather enjoying scaring the shit (literally) out of Phil U by telling I could get him a job with the local septic tank cleaner outer…Mind you, that clown had made his own mind fall apart many years ago I suspect…

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  239. Johnboy (16,516 comments) says:

    “if people in society are going to be promiscuous”

    You’re on to it Judith. Sharia law should be introduced to knock all this extracurricular shagging on the head! :)

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  240. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Johnboy (14,108 comments) says:
    June 7th, 2014 at 6:26 pm

    I tend to think the problem actually comes from not enough of it Johnboy.

    Too many frustrated grumpy people around, envious of what others are getting, that they aren’t!! ;-)

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  241. nasska (11,478 comments) says:

    …”There are of course those that feel women should suffer through the pain of giving up a child – as punishment for their promiscuity. Most of them are religious males.”….

    About that there’s little doubt Judith. There’s a nasty undercurrent of double standards & anti female sentiment evident in this thread.

    Most of it comes from the Godologists.

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  242. Johnboy (16,516 comments) says:

    Too true Judith. If more chaps shagged sheep, like I do, there would be no need for all these abortions! :)

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  243. David Garrett (7,271 comments) says:

    Well, I think we are going to hit the 300 comment mark…just as I predicted about 10 hours ago…fuck, I’m so sharp I should be in Parliament…

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  244. Longknives (4,737 comments) says:

    DG- I hear there may be a vacancy?
    I also hear Fat Dotcom pays well but imagine the fruitcakes you would have to spend your working days with….

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  245. David Garrett (7,271 comments) says:

    ‘Knives: I don’t somehow think I would take orders from Herr Shmitz too well…and certainly not from his minion Harre..

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  246. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ David Garrett (5,610 comments) says:
    June 7th, 2014 at 6:35 pm

    Register a new party and call it “none of the above” – I reckon you’d get at least one seat!

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  247. RichardX (326 comments) says:

    Harriet (4,178 comments) says:
    June 7th, 2014 at 5:53 pm
    Listen fuck head.

    Name calling does not make your argument any more persuasive

    If it’s crap – then why do you repeatedly ask for evidence – why don’t you just put up your arguement that shows that what I’m saying is crap? You don’t have one do you fuckhead?

    Poor grammar and spelling don’t add to your argument either
    The burden of proof lies with the person making the claim
    You have made a ridiculous claim; the onus on you is to prove you are correct when challenged

    As I’ve told you before Richard – you have a mental health issue – you only come here and comment on what I have to say – no one else – ever.

    A persecution complex on top of your other issues is a worry

    How’s your arsehole ? – did you also know that gays perform sodomy on the outside of their bodies – being that the digestive system is on the outside of the body and includes the arsehole? Sodomy ithen nothing more than a very sick form of mutual masterbation -given that the palm of the hand is also on the outside of the body. Gays are then just wankers – they arn’t born gay are they?
    Were you fully informed by your local GP about arse fucking Richard? Are women fully informed about abortion too Richard?

    You appear to be laboring under the misapprehension that I prefer men to women. That would be one more thing you are wrong about

    Who do you think are the stupid ill informed fucks in society Richard? People like me I suppose?

    Not people like you.

    You

    Here’s some evidence anyway Richard:

    Not evidence backing your earlier claim

    Now cunt……..tell me if NZ women are fully informed…….or as stupid as you are?

    Wonderful way to reinforce the persuasiveness of your points

    Harriet (4,178 comments) says:
    June 7th, 2014 at 6:04 pm
    If humans had no bones then you could turn a human inside out. Go read a medical book.

    Same challenge as last time. Until you can cite a single medical book that backs your claim you are a semi-literate pseudo-scientific imbecile who makes shit up

    I thought twice about actually posting the above as I think Harriet needs help more than ridicule but he is a repeat offender for ludicrous scientific claims and his rant deserved a more detailed response than I gave earlier

    edit…hate it when I screw up blockquotes

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  248. Johnboy (16,516 comments) says:

    How is the ol’boy Judith? Is he still drinking heavily?

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  249. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Johnboy (14,110 comments) says:
    June 7th, 2014 at 6:49 pm

    He’s not allowed to drink for a while – he’s okay – he’ll be back to his grumpy old self before too long and I’ll be able to start putting laxative in his coffee again whenever he peeves me off.

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  250. David Garrett (7,271 comments) says:

    Oh Lordy…”they’ve got Wild staring eyes….and a strong urge to Fly….but I got nowhere to FLY to… fly to…fly to….fly to…

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  251. Harriet (4,969 comments) says:

    “…..Wow, Harriet said something correct! There is no ‘gay science’: there is just science, about which Harriet knows fuck all…..”

    Sorry that I made you swear Milky. You never ever do that.

    “……there is just science….”

    Talking about ‘social science’ then – smokers, drinkers & gamblers pay for their unreatrained and health threatening excesses by way of taxes. So too do people who eat too much sugar. It’s called pay as you go dental healthcare.

    All of the above are ‘price points’ at which people restrain themselves from doing damage to themselves and the wider community. It’s for the social good.

    So how come hyper sexuals are excused from pay as you go sexual healthcare – given that sexual health is in such crisis and we have to educate 9ylds how to HAVE sex properly?

    Why BLUDGE a sexual lifestyle off the taxpayer Milky? Are gays the WHORES of the welfare system Milky? :cool:

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  252. Johnboy (16,516 comments) says:

    So you’re not going to put him up against me in a drinking competition as you suggested a week or so ago?

    He’d lose if you did. …..I just wanted to get some money on it! :)

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  253. Longknives (4,737 comments) says:

    Takes me back to my Varsity days David- Getting off my face and sitting through The Wall…

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  254. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Johnboy (14,111 comments) says:
    June 7th, 2014 at 6:56 pm

    No, it wouldn’t work at the moment. With him being a bit crook I’ve had to be nice to him. I’d need about a week to piss him off enough to make him drink plenty.

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  255. Johnboy (16,516 comments) says:

    You could stand in for him Judith. I suspect a pissed Judith could be quite fun! :)

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  256. Harriet (4,969 comments) says:

    Judith & Nasska#

    ”…….There are of course those that feel women should suffer through the pain of giving up a child – as punishment for their promiscuity. Most of them are religious males……..”….

    But not unlike the pain suffered by the child ripped from the arms of a surrogate mother and given up to gay males – or some hetros.

    The child’s parents, sibblings, history and culture are removed from their past for a few thousand dollars from the First World.

    Actions of the Slave Trade they used to call it!

    Baby killers, slave masters, disease spreaders?

    And you agree that girls would be better off in a society like that Judith? Seriously?

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  257. David Garrett (7,271 comments) says:

    ‘Knives: Dark Side was much much better….but here we are, 44 comments off the 300 I predicted 9 hours ago…and no-one has altered their view one iota…300 comments before midnight, guaranteed…

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  258. Johnboy (16,516 comments) says:

    Have you ever considered voluntary commitment to a lunatic asylum Harriet?

    Just asking! :)

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  259. Longknives (4,737 comments) says:

    Agreed DG- But one could make an argument that Wish You Were Here is better than the both of them….

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  260. Johnboy (16,516 comments) says:

    It’s taken the place of GD tonight David that’s why it’s going so well. A proper quizzmaster would be dishing out demerits like a one-armed paperhanger for off-topic.

    Like LPrent for example! :)

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  261. Longknives (4,737 comments) says:

    You’d never get Demerits for discussing the mighty ‘Floyd Johnboy…

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  262. nasska (11,478 comments) says:

    Don’t worry RichardX….he’s working down the list.

    The crazys strong tonight….he’ll be onto your queries soon. :)

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  263. Johnboy (16,516 comments) says:

    See your Pink Floyd and up you one Dire Straits Longknives! :)

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  264. Harriet (4,969 comments) says:

    JB #

    Most of what I write is from comments and blogs on the likes of American Thinker. All make sense. The gay child slavery racket was a blog by an african american professor for example. The ‘life is not created at conception’ is from a retired professor of biology.

    The more Richard wants to see the ‘evidence’ the more foolish he’ll look. I’ll post the evidence when I want.

    He hasn’t been back since I brought up the ‘social sceince’ behind the cost of gay healthcare in NZ.

    He didn’t of course ask for evidence as he knows he’s bludging a sexual lifestyle off the taxpayer – just like milky. :cool:

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  265. Longknives (4,737 comments) says:

    I prefer earlier Dire Straits Johnboy- Though Brothers in Arms was a huge album…

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  266. RRM (9,917 comments) says:

    Have you ever considered voluntary commitment to a lunatic asylum Harriet?

    Anyone participating in one of these abortion threads on here has already made that choice :-)

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  267. Johnboy (16,516 comments) says:

    I don’t want to appear to be a wanker Longknives but I still get the Kleenex out over these two ladies! :)

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  268. David Garrett (7,271 comments) says:

    Johnboy: Many thanks for that great clip of Knebworth…now here’s a question…was anyone there in 1976, late afternoon-evening before the Stones came on about 11 pm??

    If anyone WAS there that year at that time they will know what I am talking about…

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  269. Johnboy (16,516 comments) says:

    Tell us more DG? :)

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  270. Longknives (4,737 comments) says:

    “Was anyone there in 1976?”

    I was 1 in 1976 but I’m dying to hear the story….

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  271. Johnboy (16,516 comments) says:

    I’m a bit concerned about my lust for Agnetha as she bears a striking resemblance to my youngest daughter.

    (Beauty inherited from her mother not me I might add)

    However Agnetha looked like that before my daughter was born so perhaps I’m OK! :)

    Amateur psychoanalysts……. feel free to comment? :)

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  272. Longknives (4,737 comments) says:

    Johnboy it was a wee bit before my time but I still think I would have preferred Ms Deborah Harry…

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  273. David Garrett (7,271 comments) says:

    JB: Well…the Stones were very late coming on…as was the custom back then…some unidentified guy kept coming out and saying to the 250,000 strong crowd “You’ve been great…very patient…they won’t be long”…and at about 9 pm (IIRC it was a long time ago) this guy strolled out on the stage wanking…(there were big banks of video screens at strategic points so everyone could see what was happening)…a huge cheer went up…he strolled forward and all the cameras focused on him…so you had three screens near me: one a close up of his todger (to use the vernacular of the time); one side on; one “whole stage” shot…he eventually ejaculated …which was met by another huge cheer from the crowd…I remember thinking “Fuck, this will be front page news tomoorrow…NOTHING ever appeared…don’t know whether it was press self censorship or what…

    Anyone there that day will confirm what I have said above…

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  274. Johnboy (16,516 comments) says:

    Very beautiful lady Longknives. 68 years old now has worn quite well. Still prefer Agnetha! :)

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  275. Johnboy (16,516 comments) says:

    Christ’s sake DG it wasn’t Red was it? :)

    He was a toolpusher after all!

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  276. Longknives (4,737 comments) says:

    Wanking in front of 250,000 people? That takes spunk!

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  277. Longknives (4,737 comments) says:

    I’m off to the Stones at Mt Smart in November…could storm the stage for my ‘Big Moment’??

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  278. Johnboy (16,516 comments) says:

    Perhaps you could wank Mick Jagger into some form of life Longknives? :)

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  279. David Garrett (7,271 comments) says:

    I know it sounds unlikely chaps…but that’s what happened…but it was 1976…the Press had a more comprehensive code of practice in those days…

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  280. nasska (11,478 comments) says:

    David G was spot on :) …..there had to be some reference to it on the net & here it is: http://www.iorr.org/talk/read.php?1,1150630,1151843

    Don’t know how to link to individual comments but it’s :

    Re: Was Anyone Here at Knebworth 1976
    Posted by: exhpart ()
    Date: November 14, 2009 14:52

    ….”. I also recall the Gentlemen who relieved our boredom and relieved himself – He’s now chief accounting officer at British Gas!”…..

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  281. David Garrett (7,271 comments) says:

    Actually it would be a rather wonderful manifestation of the interweb…someone saying: “Yes! I was there that day Garrett…and you are right!”…there were 250,000 people there that day/night…I surely cant be the only Kiwi who witnessed it?? Knebworth, June or July 1976…

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  282. David Garrett (7,271 comments) says:

    Thanks for whoever posted that…”the gentleman who relieved himself” is what I am talking about…I am intrigued that said “gentleman” later had a career partly in the public eye!! And all I did was some foolishness 27 years prior to being an MP…

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  283. David Garrett (7,271 comments) says:

    Where are the fucking wankers on this thread?? Have they all gone to bed??

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  284. nasska (11,478 comments) says:

    That’s the trouble with modern day religionist wankers……no staying power……no stamina. :)

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  285. Longknives (4,737 comments) says:

    You’d think at least L,R & C would be still up? That guy posts all bloody night…

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  286. Johnboy (16,516 comments) says:

    I’ve just taken a Viagra and applied some deep heat to my wanking wrist so I should be good for another couple of hours! :)

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  287. David Garrett (7,271 comments) says:

    Nasska: Isn’t that just an incredible manifestation of the interweb?? I come up with a 35 year old memory, and within minutes someone has posted a piece relating to it…If it was now of course, 10,000 people would have a clip of “the action” on their cell phones…For me, its kinda nice that here is independent verification of my long ago memory…

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  288. Longknives (4,737 comments) says:

    Yep- Amazing that some random guy tore one off in 1976 and we are still talking about it now!
    Anyone else going to the Stones?

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  289. Johnboy (16,516 comments) says:

    15 all at 73 minutes!

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  290. Johnboy (16,516 comments) says:

    Conrad Smith a try! :)

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  291. David Garrett (7,271 comments) says:

    Johnboy: I sense this post of yours has nothing to do with the Stones in 1976…

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  292. Johnboy (16,516 comments) says:

    No it’s right back on topic. ……An abortion of a game is all it could be described as! :)

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  293. Fisiani (1,039 comments) says:

    Abortion is a crime under NZ law. Undeniable fact. Read the post above carefully. It is only legal under specified conditions listed above. Making it no longer a crime actually means that future illegal abortionists would not be committing a crime.
    There is no law in NZ forbidding anyone from carrying out surgery. That will surprise some people. If you remove a splinter from someones finger using forceps you are carrying out surgery. That is why there is no legislation. It is however illegal to call yourself a surgeon unless you are a properly qualified medical practitioner.
    The Greens proposal could bring back the scourge of amateur abortionists. An unintended consequence I’m sure but a potential money spinner for anyone who can find out how to do it on Google.

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  294. Psycho Milt (2,412 comments) says:

    The Greens proposal could bring back the scourge of amateur abortionists.

    My God, this is terrible! We already have so much trouble with the scourge of amateur surgeons carrying out back-street appendectomies and tonselectomies, how could we possibly encourage more to go into business?

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  295. RichardX (326 comments) says:

    Harriet (4,182 comments) says:
    June 7th, 2014 at 7:32 pm
    The ‘life is not created at conception’ is from a retired professor of biology.
    The more Richard wants to see the ‘evidence’ the more foolish he’ll look. I’ll post the evidence when I want.
    He hasn’t been back since I brought up the ‘social sceince’ behind the cost of gay healthcare in NZ.
    He didn’t of course ask for evidence as he knows he’s bludging a sexual lifestyle off the taxpayer – just like milky.

    I was watching a couple of rugby tests you imbecile
    You have not provided evidence
    You have made more poorly written, badly spelt assertions, not only about biology but me as well
    Where are the medical text books you claim support your earlier statements?

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  296. gump (1,647 comments) says:

    @Fisani

    “There is no law in NZ forbidding anyone from carrying out surgery. That will surprise some people. If you remove a splinter from someones finger using forceps you are carrying out surgery. That is why there is no legislation. It is however illegal to call yourself a surgeon unless you are a properly qualified medical practitioner.”

    ————————

    That’s absolute rubbish.

    The Health Practitioners Competence Assurance Act allows for specified activities to be restricted to registered health practitioners, in order to protect members of the public from the risk of serious or permanent harm.

    The activities that are currently restricted under the Act are:

    1. surgical or operative procedures below the gingival margin or the surface of the skin, mucous membranes or teeth.

    2. clinical procedures involved in the insertion and maintenance of fixed and removable orthodontic or oral and maxillofacial prosthetic appliances.

    3. prescribing of enteral or parenteral nutrition where the feed is administered through a tube into the gut or central venous catheter.

    4. prescribing of an ophthalmic appliance, optical appliance or ophthalmic medical device intended for remedial or cosmetic purposes or for the correction of a defect of sight.

    5. applying high velocity, low amplitude manipulative techniques to cervical spinal joints.

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  297. tvb (4,417 comments) says:

    If a child can survive outside the mother then to kill it during an abortion procedure is murder of that unborn child. For late term termination of pregnancies the unborn child’s life must be protected.

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  298. Nukuleka (325 comments) says:

    ‘The current practice and current law are out of sync.’

    Thus saith the oracle, DPF. I guess that logic would have the oracle tell us that because most people exceed the 50 km per hour speed limit then ‘the current practice and the current law are out of sync’ and so the speed limit must be increased. Same rationale. Foolish rationale.

    The current abortion law was enacted in order to provide some modicum of protection for the unborn child. It may be imperfect but the protection for the unborn child is still necessary. Unborn children are exactly that- CHILDREN. Abortion is murder.

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