Maori offending

July 26th, 2014 at 2:00 pm by David Farrar

Stuff reports:

The prison system has achieved little in lowering the rate of offending and a century of appalling crime statistics shows no sign of abating, according to an iwi justice advocate.

That is because generally the role of the prison system is to protect the community, not lower offending. Lowering offending is important, but that involves drug and alcohol counselling, education, rehabilitation programmes and the like. Some of that can be done through prisons, but again the primary role of prisons is to keep the community safe.

A joint police and iwi justice programme in Wellington that aims to reduce Maori crime statistics was presented to the Maori King Tuheitia and his pan-tribal council Tekau-maa-rua in Ngaruawahia yesterday.

Chair of the iwi justice panel at Waiwhetu Marae in Lower Hutt, Neville Baker, said the current system had failed Maori for decades and the systems needed to change.

“Maori have been incarcerated for 100 years and we are getting worse so why would we want to continue with the prison system,” said Baker.

It’s great to see a focus on reducing offending. I would point out that the trend is actually positive. The Herald reported last year:

A progress report on the Government’s crime prevention programme shows Maori youth offending down by 32 per cent over three years.

The Drivers of Crime programme, launched in December 2009, brings together crime prevention work of the justice and social sector.

The latest report shows offending rates for Maori youth between 2008 and 2012 dropped 32 per cent.

Youth offending is probably the most important to target.

There has also been a small decrease in the number of Maori in prison – a 3.6% reduction from March 2011 (4,483) to to March 2014 (4,320).

Still a huge amount more to be done, but the solutions are not as simple as just saying less prison. If an offender’s crimes are serious enough or repetitive enough, the protecting the community comes first.

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73 Responses to “Maori offending”

  1. Southern Raider (1,831 comments) says:

    How about Iwi leaders dedicate their time and treaty gained resources into setting the right example of what a good modern citizen is and actively criticising those who step out of line?

    No better to have more hui to blame the white man?

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  2. kowtow (8,733 comments) says:

    Why blame the prison system?

    Blame lies with the perpetrator.

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  3. Johnboy (16,994 comments) says:

    All us honkies know that Murri is predisposed to crime eh bro!

    Why the fuck do we have to keep doing this mea culpa shit over it?

    Jail the assholes whenever appropriate and let all their fucking useless Kaumatas agonise over it! :)

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  4. Johnboy (16,994 comments) says:

    Start with that sorry little chinless shite Paki! :)

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  5. peterwn (3,298 comments) says:

    Re last sentence – which is precisely why today’s judges are generally reluctant to send anyone to prison – to the point of annoying victims and their families, and drawing criticism. In this light it would a big ‘ask’ to restrict prison sentences still more, arguably all white collar crims should then not be subject to prison. Charles Chauvel when Labour’s justice spokesperson wanted to ban prison sentences of less than six months – he did not seem to be aware that such sentences were extremely rare, and then generally limited to contempt of court cases. Then for anyone to be sentenced to up to two years imprisonment must be given home detention unless special circumstances apply.

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  6. Southern Raider (1,831 comments) says:

    Exactly Johnboy. Having the Maori King lead means it’s hardly coming from a position of principle.

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  7. Southern Raider (1,831 comments) says:

    Was discussing the the other day at work.

    Conclusion we came to was that by the time Maori youth offenders get to their early 20s they have either sorted out their shit or got significantly worse. Most of this youth offending seems to be due to family environment, dodgy friends and lack of education and job opportunities

    Fix is
    – every youth offender (regardless of race) that would normally incur a prison or custodial sentence get sent to the army in Waiouru or Tekapo
    – they get a five year stint
    – if they don’t behave it’s off to the army clink for remainder of term
    – each is put on an army apprenticeship

    By the time they get out they have work ethic, have discipline, have a trade

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  8. mavxp (491 comments) says:

    The issue can be better resolved by targeting mothers and fathers in the lower socio-economic neighbourhoods, with a focus on post-natal support including extended family, education, welfare, and early childhood education. The first 3.5 years are critical during which the majority of the human brain develops.

    If the child spends those years in neglect, the stats strongly suggest prison awaits them. Throwing money at prisons and rehab programmes is not good bang for buck. Get in early and support young families.

    This cannot be easily fixed by government policy, but better economic, and environmental conditions can be created, NGOs and trusts can be supported. The rest is up to the parents and the families themselves. That is why this is a cyclical problem and maori have consistently bad stats – neglected kids will often grow up to be negligent parents themselves.

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  9. Longknives (4,858 comments) says:

    Susan Devoy unleashed on New Zealand Police for ‘Racial Profiling’ earlier in the week as well

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11297452

    “Racial stereotyping has no place in Aotearoa’s future”

    Two questions-
    1) Is it not possible that more Maori get arrested and sent to Prison because quite simply they are the ones committing the crimes?? Why do we always have to blame Prisons/Police/Colonialism etc?

    2) When did New Zealand change it’s name?

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  10. jp_1983 (225 comments) says:

    Let’s give all Maoris a diplomatic passport ergo. Immunity therefore no Maori crime

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  11. Johnboy (16,994 comments) says:

    Poor old Susan got a bit rubbished earlier Longknives so has obviously gone into income protective mode! :)

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  12. Southern Raider (1,831 comments) says:

    Mavxp

    You need a carrot and a stick. Agree early childhood intervention is extremely important but you also need to get those who are going to go off the rails in their teenage years completely out of the family environment

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  13. Johnboy (16,994 comments) says:

    They gave her a silly job and she thought it meant she could say it as she saw it!

    She quickly realised that her job was just a pseudo pretend sort of a job as long as she made the right PC noises! :)

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  14. Rex Widerstrom (5,354 comments) says:

    Yes, prison can only do so much rehabilitation, but that doesn’t mean it shouldn’t do as much as it can in the interests of keeping us all safe when prisoners are released.

    That’s why Anne Tolley is to be commended for vastly increasing the number of places available on in-prison drug & alcohol programs. And the new head of Corrections also. They’re following evidence-based best practice, which is exactly what we should expect of our politicians and public servants.

    But unless that rehabilitation continues after the prisoner is released, there’s a very high chance that they’ll be pressured by old associates back into substance abuse and crime.

    What a pity, then, that Tolley’s predecessor Judith Collins didn’t share her comprehension or her courage. Instead, she stopped funding to Prisoners Aid and Rehabilitation Society (PARS) because they had the temerity to say something with which she disagreed (and, probably, to play to her support base of conservative knuckle draggers). PARS was the only organisation specifically focused on continuing rehabilitation post-release, and as a result we’re all that bit less safe.

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  15. duggledog (1,582 comments) says:

    Southern raider:

    ‘that would normally incur a prison or custodial sentence get sent to the army in Waiouru or Tekapo’

    Mate they don’t want them. Even though a good chunk of our army boys are tangata whenua, the very last thing they want is some shit head from Awanui joining their ranks. Ask any one you like. These guys are highly trained, highly motivated soldiers these days.

    I put a lot of the offending by young Maori down to this: ever since birth a lot of them (and this is aside from the ones who get neglected) are brought up to believe they are special, special people. That they have Mana. Then when they eventually leave school they find out they are exactly the same as everybody else. Major disappointment as they are turned down for jobs like everyone else, get fired like everyone else, don’t get the flat, get stopped by a white cop etc etc, and this is where the ‘f*** you’ to society (which is mainly European and now Asian) comes in.

    This, along with the very subtle but now deeply ingrained idea that white Europeans stole all their land that they learn in the kura and on Maori TV etc. is a recipe for disaster. All I can say is, it ain’t getting any better any time soon. The Maoris I grew up with nothing like so many young Maori today. No swaggering faux-American gangsta attitude, just a whole lot of fun at parties, always happy to share anything, keen as for a bit of manual labour and to show you where the good fishing was. The wahines were a bit of all right too. Mind you I grew up in the country.

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  16. Johnboy (16,994 comments) says:

    Lovely little Chris Finlayson has suddenly become my main man for manning up to making up to Murri manly stuff that makes a Murri man feel like a man again! :)

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  17. pcplod (29 comments) says:

    These ARSEHOLES! are in prison because THEY ARE ARSEHOLES!

    The best solutions include:
    * Lock them up as soon as they are caught; why? Because invariably while on bail they breed yet another arsehole for the sole reason that it makes judges show leniency.
    * When they make all their excuses like blaming abusive parents; grab up the parents and lock those arseholes up as well. The evidence being arsehole 2’s excuse.
    * Chemical castration, or the mechanical kind, I don’t care. Stop the ARSEHOLE friendly gravy train.
    * Make iwi pay. Pay for the policing, the counselling, the courts and the prison expenses. A great way to use the $37 Billion tax free dollars ripped off from honest working New Zealanders.

    OK so I hate them. That’s because – THEY ARE ARSEHOLES! – Except the odd one who actually speaks out and takes responsibility.

    Thumbs down for me. I really don’t care.

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  18. Chuck Bird (4,923 comments) says:

    Why shouldn’t judges show leniency to those who have not had a good start in live when they show leniency to he who cannot be named.

    I say one law for all. How Maori working or not get name suppression?

    Most of the politicians want this to go away. But there are a few of us will keep this up until the leaders of parties come clean and say if they support name suppression and if so why so.

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  19. dirty harry (513 comments) says:

    you see it right plod..end of the day its quite simple and Ive said it many times..if you cant do the time don’t do the crime
    But pig shit thick mouldy don’t see it so plainly. They have been made out to be the victims. Thank you hawawira , turia , sharples et al. They think its the racist white mans fault. Easy way out..easy excuse.

    Stop committing crime maori…you wont go to jail and the statistics for bro offending/incarceration will come down.

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  20. David Garrett (7,523 comments) says:

    pcplod: quite so…

    Rex: I disagree…funding was cut to PARS because its focus was not so much on assisting paroled offenders not to reoffend, but to make endless excuses for why they were offending and re-offending in the first place…

    Although we are on different places on the spectrum, you and I both know that the reason the prison population is predominantly Maori is that Maori are overrepresented in convictions for violent offences…which are the offences which normally result in significant jail time. We can argue endlessly about why that is the case…but IMO is most definitely NOT because of “racial profiling” or “institutional racism” in the Police or courts or any of the myriad bullshit reasons put forward by the left…the fact is Maori commit a disproportionate amount of serious crime, and are therefore going to be disproportionately imprisoned.

    Someone here the other day made the observation that whereas when some Honkey is convicted of some dreadful offence we all -that is all of us righties – say “Lock the c…t up and throw away the key”; ” hanging is too good for him” etc…..Maori on the other hand will offer endless excuses as to why a “good boy” did dreadful things…Sorry, doesn’t wash with this honkey.

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  21. Johnboy (16,994 comments) says:

    It’s utterly amazing to me that some stupid female judge that was obviously either smoking too much pot or else suffering from colonial patheticism syndrome could let that grotty little chinless shit Paki off a major crime!

    It’s almost as if he was Prince George or something! :)

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  22. David Garrett (7,523 comments) says:

    JB: I have a feeling the High Court may have a different view of the matter than Judge Phillipa Cunningham…We have a pretty sensible High Court Bench these days…I do regret however that because of some unfortunate decisions in the distant past, Hanging Judge Garrett will never be joining them…

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  23. Johnboy (16,994 comments) says:

    Judge Jeffreys, Judge Roy Bean, …..no Judge Garrett!

    What a huge fucking loss to jurisprudence! :)

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  24. David Garrett (7,523 comments) says:

    JB: I think I could have brought a certain piquancy to the Bench…alas, no…

    Some years ago there was a HC Judge called Brad Giles…he largely followed precedent until he was diagnosed with terminal cancer… then from the time of his diagnosis until his death, he handed out the sentences he thought were justified, with no consideration for what the Court of Appeal of the day would think…Inevitably, many of his sentences were drastically reduced…but good on that man…

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  25. Johnboy (16,994 comments) says:

    Your ancestor Pat Garrett did somewhat the same David! :)

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  26. Longknives (4,858 comments) says:

    “Hanging Judge Garrett”
    That would make one Bad-Ass Reality TV show….
    (Couldn’t see him having too much sympathy for inbred Maori ‘Royalty’..)

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  27. David Garrett (7,523 comments) says:

    Longknives: In all seriousness, I believe I could be completely colourblind as Judge…but you are quite right: I would have no regard at all to Paki’s “royalness”…he would be just another scrote offender who had offended when on bail to me…

    But of course quite apart from the unfortunate stupidity of 30 years ago, my drink driving conviction would prevent me from judging Mr Paki Jnr for the same offence…Not sure if any sitting Judge has a drink driving conviction…never heard of one…

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  28. Johnboy (16,994 comments) says:

    Wasn’t QC what’s his name..What’s her name from Martinboroughs husband found guilty of drunken driving a while ago?

    Still he’s not a Judge! :)

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  29. pcplod (29 comments) says:

    Thanks for your support dirty harry and David Garrett. I would welcome David being a judge.

    There is another growing problem. It is getting more difficult to get a guilty jury verdict due to philosophical reasons. My suggestions: 1) professional and semi-professional jurors maybe mixed with a couple of ordinary citizens. 2) Some sort of accountability of jurors. 3) A three judge panel can look to overturn obvious jury failures without waiting for appeals.

    I think it was two occasions just last year and 2012 when gang members were found not guilty of murder. Call me cynical but of course they did it.

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  30. David Garrett (7,523 comments) says:

    JB: so glad you raised that!! the QC in question is one Colin Carruthers…only met the man once, at some training seminar years ago…but his wife is the harridan Deborah Coddington…former ACT MP but now bleeding heart liberal (with a small ‘l”)…pretty much in the ” Murris are not responsible for anything they do” camp… and her former colleagues and mentors are beyond the pale…

    I am told that as an MP she was lazy and useless (Get colin to sue me Deborah…bring it on!!) and everyone in the party quickly realised she had been parachuted into a position way beyond her ability…

    Oh I almost forgot…IIRC dear old Colin was TWICE the legal limit for DIC…

    Pcplod: to be fair, it would have been juries not judges deciding these gang members were not guilty…but then there have of course been cases of juror intimidation…in fact one such case gave rise to a change in the law allowing a second prosecution where there was BYD evidence that the jury had been “got to”…in other words, a depature from the hallowed principle that one can only ever be tried once for the same crime…

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  31. Johnboy (16,994 comments) says:

    I’ve noticed that her photo’s on the odd publications that she get’s to quote on these days don’t do her much justice David!

    Isn’t this is the woman that once stated she was sexually assaulted by a prominent chap?

    He obviously needed new specs! :)

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  32. Johnboy (16,994 comments) says:

    Dodgy stuff popping past Upper Hutt when you’re as pissed as a Judge. Specially if you aint one! :)

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  33. Johnboy (16,994 comments) says:

    Keep up the good work Minus. You enhance all the pleasure I get from being here you little fag! :)

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  34. David Garrett (7,523 comments) says:

    JB: Her most scurrilous accusation is that the late Roger Kerr sexually harassed her in the Backbencher pub, opposite to Parliament…I wasn’t there, but I am told that she had had a relationship with Roger, and then unceremoniously dumped him without any explanation…Poor old Roger was most bereft and upset, and asked her to tell him what he had done wrong…whereupon our Deborah staged a big public meltdown, and ran back to Parliament, pursued by the puzzled Roger…she apparently enlisted the help of a security guard to “protect” her…Anyone who knew the late Roger Kerr – even slightly – would know that he was about as threatening as a new born lamb…

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  35. David Garrett (7,523 comments) says:

    JB: You are right…there is some moron here who down ticks you every time you write a sentence…To quote BT Barnum out of context, there is one born every minute…

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  36. Longknives (4,858 comments) says:

    What the hell happened to Deborah Coddington? How can you go from an ACT MP to a member of the ‘Constitutional Review’ Panel which pretty much wants to boot any Non- Maori out of their shiny new ‘Republic of Aotearoa’??

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  37. publicwatchdog (2,797 comments) says:

    Where are the figures on ‘white collar’ criminal offending? Penny Bright

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  38. nasska (11,788 comments) says:

    ….”there is some moron here who down ticks you every time you write a sentence”…..

    I come along later & “uptick” to add balance DG. I have the same problem most nights but fortunately my stalker is giving the Crusaders rim jobs tonight. :)

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  39. David Garrett (7,523 comments) says:

    Longknives: In a sentence? She found her one true love…a multi millionaire lawyer and chardonnay socialist…who likes a bit too much chardonnay on occasion…And she had no idea at all about what her long time partner Alister Taylor was doing…she was completely innocent…

    Penny: You are very computer literate… YOU tell us how many offences per 1000 are “white collar”…far too many it is true…

    But then answer this: “if you had a choice, would you prefer your accountant defrauded you, or that some asshole decided to have his way with you behind the bushes?” No pressure…just in your own time…

    Nasska: Judith supports the Crusaders? (they are a rugby team aren’t they??)

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  40. Griff (8,159 comments) says:

    Constitutional Review
    Had me worried
    But they seem to have realized that the chance of getting te tricky intrenched into a constitution without civil war was zero.
    I made a submission stating as much and also asking why Maori were so heavily loaded onto the panel.
    What does still concern me is the expectation for te tricky the hoha around the process raised.

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  41. Elaycee (4,403 comments) says:

    Penny Not-So: Where are the figures on ‘white collar’ criminal offending…

    Look them up for yourself. Or get someone to help you.

    Besides, the bold print at the top of this thread says this is about: “Maori Offending”.

    Do catch up. :P

    LAC.
    Attendee, Wairarapa Dog Trials, Pirinoa – 1980.
    Observer: Modulock P-24 field tests, Rintoul Street, Wellington – 1981.
    Supporter: Israel’s Defence Against Terrorism – Since I was old enough to think for myself….

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  42. Longknives (4,858 comments) says:

    “She found her one true love…a multi millionaire lawyer and chardonnay socialist”

    Typical- So at least she can escape once her ingenious ‘Constitutional’ recommendations are in place and Hone Mugabe has appointed himself ‘President for Life’…

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  43. big bruv (14,132 comments) says:

    I firmly believe that one of the main reasons for the on going high rate of criminal offending by Maori is because their “leaders” absolutely refuse to chastise or berate those who do offend. As David Garrett has told us on more than one occasion, even the leaders of the Maori party refuse to criticise gang members because they are “family”

    The message that goes out to young brown tugs and morons is that it does not matter what you do, your “people” will never think bad of you.

    If you don’t believe this then visit any court in the land on any day of the week you choose. At least once during the day you will see an example of Maori low life being paraded in front of a judge and jury, at some stage of the proceedings there will be a yell from the back of the court “love you son” or something very similar. Will there be any sympathy from the low life’s family to the victim of the crime…..of course not, the victim is probably not Maori so they could not care less.

    The sooner the people who laughingly pass as Maori “leaders” in NZ start to take a hard line with their criminal fraternity the sooner we will start to see a change.

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  44. David Garrett (7,523 comments) says:

    Elaycee: I think Penny has moved beyond citing her various “credentials”, including “attendee” at various fora…but I don’t think she’s ever explained what the justification is for not paying her rates…

    And me sayng this is somewhat ironic, since I don’t believe I get value for money out here either…$1800 a year when I get my water from the sky; dispose of my own shit through a septic tank, and pay for the rubbish collection separately at $1.50 per bag from the local countdown…

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  45. duggledog (1,582 comments) says:

    Saw a documentary three or four years ago on TV1 I think it was, some guy had got himself unprecedented access to Mount Eden and went in there and basically did a Johnny Cash at San Quentin number (without the awesome tunes).

    Anyway the interviews with the (overwhelmingly) Maori & PI inmates were very interesting. The one I remember most is the young chap who said most of them had absolutely no problem with a six month holiday; they were quite comfortable, warm, well fed and most importantly… their mates were all there. And if they weren’t mates, they soon would be.

    Basically the overwhelming impression you were left with was that the boys were invariably happy as larry in there. It was of no consequence at all. Now, you compare that with most Europeans; the place would be utter f***ing hell, because the Bro’s would make it hell.

    Of course nobody saw the documentary; in true TVNZ fashion it was buried. I think it should have been compulsory viewing. New Zealand prisons to a large extent are no deterrent AT ALL for 90% of the people destined to go there.

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  46. Reid (16,632 comments) says:

    Personally I think one major factor behind Maori offending is their warrior nature. Warriors by nature are risk takers. Most criminals are risk takers.

    Another major factor is their widespread belief that the laws of the land were made by people other than themselves, therefore they don’t particularly care to obey them.

    Combine that with the usual victimhood mentality found a great deal amongst the poor and uneducated: that it’s someone else’s fault and cos I’m poor it’s sure not mine so it HAS to be someone elses and anyway in this particular case I simply couldn’t help it cos I never got a chance and anyway the system’s biased and no-one cares about me and it’s not fair.

    And those three things to me and note the third is not exclusive to Maori but the other two are, are the major reasons why poor and uneducated Maori do a lot more time per head than other nationalities in our population.

    Frankly if the hand-wringers in the policy depts not just in Justice but in TPK and Crown Law and Corrections ever stop their hand-wringing for even a second the world for Maori would immediately improve because it’s not as if those people lack the tools, it’s just they refuse to apply them properly because they all seem to think doing so would be tewwibly wacist.

    So they all keep munting on about the same old things which haven’t worked and never will, while Maori generation after Maori generation all follow the same predictable pattern with the same predictable results.

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  47. Longknives (4,858 comments) says:

    “the victim is probably not Maori so they could not care less.”

    This is called the “Maori World View”.
    I heard Willie Jackson speaking about it once and subsequently asked some Maori friends what he meant.
    They told me that in a nutshell it means Maori are the ‘Chosen People’ or (more terrifyingly) ‘The Master Race’..
    Hence they couldn’t care less about the rape/murder etc etc of anyone from a ‘lesser race’…

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  48. David Garrett (7,523 comments) says:

    Duggle: You are absolutely right…which is one of the reasons it is difficult if not impossible to get through to the small “l” liberals…

    For PLU the deprivation of liberty – involving the smallest things like going down to the village for a paper, or stopping off at the pub after work for a pint – would be a major thing…. But if you are a shit head living in a bus in some campground in some South Taranaki shit hole, deprivation of liberty – so long as it comes with three squares a day – is nothing! And it is impossible to get that across to PLU with degrees…believe me, I have tried it…

    Reid: FFS man…I am pretty well on your team…but why do you invite ridicule by mis-spelling words to include “w” where that is not the correct spelling? Please do tell us why you do that…

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  49. Chuck Bird (4,923 comments) says:

    BB the same thing applies to your homosexual mates.

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  50. Harriet (5,118 comments) says:

    “….If you don’t believe this then visit any court in the land on any day of the week you choose. At least once during the day you will see an example of Maori low life being paraded in front of a judge and jury,….”

    I’ve only been to court once and that was about 15yrs ago – the Court of Petty Sessions in NSW for driving while suspended. I went dressed in pants, shirt and tie and carried a satchel. At the lunch break I was approached seperatly by two other ‘co-defendents’ who were also waiting for their cases to be heard – and both asked if I would represent them seeing I was a ‘lawyer’.

    Both were Maori!

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  51. Longknives (4,858 comments) says:

    And if anyone doubts my 6:53- Let’s not forget that the next Maori King openly refers to People of Asian descent as “Chingy Eyed Cunts”..

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  52. Chuck Bird (4,923 comments) says:

    DPF, Perhaps you could explain why it is okay generalizations agaisnt Maori are okay like ffensive names such as Murri get by as well as many other name that are deliberately offensive but you give demerits for someone criticizing enablers like Goff and King.

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  53. Unity (609 comments) says:

    I totally agree with Southern Raider (2.31pm) about Army training for the criminals who committed lesser crimes. If the Army people don’t want them perhaps they could created a separate facility to train them the same way and under the same conditions. Many of these criminals don’t have any structure to their lives, aspirations or even the slightest work ethic, let alone an education. I definitely feel that instead of lying around in Prison with their TVs, Gyms, Games rooms etc they should be put to work – hard work – long hours.

    Also, I get really annoyed whenever anyone refers to our country as Aotearoa. It is New Zealand and it certainly hasn’t changed to my knowledge. Personally I believe it is a devious way to get us used to it and then the next thing we will find our country’s name being changed without a by your leave, like they have been doing up and down the country.

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  54. Longknives (4,858 comments) says:

    “Also, I get really annoyed whenever anyone refers to our country as Aotearoa. It is New Zealand and it certainly hasn’t changed to my knowledge.”

    Surely a good subject for a Referendum? I confidently predict that 80-90% would want us to stay ‘New Zealand’!
    *Though our Governments aren’t famous for taking much notice of what we want anyway…

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  55. big bruv (14,132 comments) says:

    Chuck

    Not sure what gays have got to do with Maori crime, perhaps you would care to enlighten us?

    Or, might it be that you are offended by facts?

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  56. Unity (609 comments) says:

    I agree Longknives but until we get BINDING referenda it wouldn’t be safe to have a referendum. Our Governments have shown how they blatantly ignore overwhelming referenda. They either feel they know best or they have a political agenda, or both.

    It’s the same regarding our flag. Key said the first thing he will do if he wins this election will be to change our flag. I like our flag.

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  57. David Garrett (7,523 comments) says:

    ‘Knives: Now there’s a referdum topic we call all agree on: “Should the country commonly known as ‘New Zealand’ continue to be known by that name, or should it be officially referred to as ‘Aotearoa’ ” ?

    Probably 80-% in favour of the status quo in my view…

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  58. Reid (16,632 comments) says:

    Reid: FFS man…I am pretty well on your team…but why do you invite ridicule by mis-spelling words to include “w” where that is not the correct spelling? Please do tell us why you do that…

    Because whenever I use that David I refer to the hand-winging lefty pwopensity to bleed their widdle hearts all over the place when what is really required for the situation at hand is hard-hat thinking with pure logic and human nature naked and exposed whatever it may be even if one doesn’t like it and even if exposing such means those particular facts are likely to conflict with one’s worldview.

    Which is why I use it both when I talk about lefties and when I talk about certain conservative positions which IMO are being viewed through precisely the same hand-wringing lens that lefties use all the time on their issues. Such as Israel.

    Bleeding heart perspectives actually offend me, because when people adopt them it obfuscates their thinking and they select subconsciously those arguments which bolster their emotional perspective and discard those which degrade it. And since when has logic and cold, hard reality and truth, ever been about emotion? If it’s the truth, it’s the truth. Who cares if you like it? But because people who suffer from this dis-ease don’t recognise they are suffering from it because all of that bleeding heart shit is working on the subconscious level and it goes to the heart of the thinker’s perspective on what it means to be a “good” person so it’s almost instinctive for them, I use gentle humour to poke them to possibly consider that their perspective might not be the right one. I doubt it works more than one in a hundred times, if that. But it’s better than the full frontal assault which is the de rigeur tactic on GD, day in and day out, because as we know, people don’t react well to attack but who knows they may, possibly, to a gentle prod.

    I know it’s not my job to correct people’s innards and I don’t mean to be arrogant about it, I accept many positions I have almost certainly aren’t the truth. But that’s why I do it.

    Plus I hate lefties and it really gets up their noses. Tee hee.

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  59. big bruv (14,132 comments) says:

    ” Let’s not forget that the next Maori King openly refers to People of Asian descent as “Chingy Eyed Cunts”..”

    A comment that our media have gone out of their way to ignore. Imagine if that filthy comment was made by a white person?, imagine if that comment was made by Michael Laws?

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  60. Rex Widerstrom (5,354 comments) says:

    David Garrett says:

    funding was cut to PARS because its focus was not so much on assisting paroled offenders not to reoffend, but to make endless excuses for why they were offending and re-offending in the first place

    PARS had held the government contract for 51 years, yet no other Justice Minister, even in the days of Muldoon, had a problem with them. They lost the funding not because of any excuse-making but because the then national director Lyanne Kerr, wrote to Community and Voluntary Services Minister Tariana Turia complaining about being “bullied” by Corrections officials.

    PARS president Graeme Dunstall said officials told him that both they and Ms Collins were “displeased” and that they had lost confidence in Ms Kerr.

    Corrections, meanwhile, publicly attributed it to PARS being “unable to demonstrate to us the financial stability that is required”.

    So no mention of excuse-making.

    Now I happen to think that if Ms Kerr couldn’t handle the bad attitude of a minority (note I said minority) of Corrections Officers then she was in the wrong job, and that writing to Tariana Turia to whinge about it was a spectacularly poor strategic decision.

    But that doesn’t justify pulling funding from the one organisation focused on continuing rehabilitation post-release, just because Collins’ nose was out of joint.

    IMO is most definitely NOT because of “racial profiling” or “institutional racism” in the Police or courts or any of the myriad bullshit reasons put forward by the left…the fact is Maori commit a disproportionate amount of serious crime, and are therefore going to be disproportionately imprisoned.

    Almost in total agreement with you DG. In my experience there are some (note again, I said some) police who do indulge in racial profiling in a way that disadvantages Maori. But there are several factors that counterbalance that, and so “even out” the conviction statistics:

    1. Their discretion only extends so far. So whereas a young Maori might be arrested for disorderly conduct by such an officer whereas a Pakeha NZer would get off with a warning, said Police couldn’t get away with that with more serious offences of the kind that result in prison terms.

    2. I’ve found other officers who’re biased the other way. As an outspoken (but never aggressive or abusive) well-educated white male, I was a “smart arse” who “had it coming”, whether or not “it” was justified.

    3. Some non-white officers can be biased the other way. I know a Samoan gentleman who joined the Police and has since risen in the ranks, but when he was still on patrol he told me one of the “perks” was spotting “some **** who’d called me a black ****”, causing a fight and exacting some utu (including charges of assault on a police officer etc) with little risk of detection.

    4. The courts certainly tend to be biased the other way, accepting arguments about “colonialisation” and “separation from traditional structures” which couldn’t be advanced to mitigate a Pakeha’s offending.

    So when you add those factors into the mix I think the outcome is pretty much as you say it is – more Maori (proportionally) are in prison than other races because more Maori (proportionally) commit the more serious type of offences.

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  61. Rex Widerstrom (5,354 comments) says:

    Coincidentally, this from the Washington Post today:

    Of all of the notions that have motivated the decades-long rise of incarceration in the United States, this is probably the most basic: When we put people behind bars, they can’t commit crime.

    The implied corollary: If we let them out, they will… Crime trends in a few states that have significantly reduced their prison populations, though, contradict this fear… violent crime rates in New York and New Jersey have actually outpaced the national trend, even as these states have reduced their prison populations through changing law enforcement and sentencing policies”.

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  62. jcuk (712 comments) says:

    Failures always blame the system.

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  63. Chuck Bird (4,923 comments) says:

    “Not sure what gays have got to do with Maori crime, perhaps you would care to enlighten us?

    Or, might it be that you are offended by facts?”

    BB, did you understand the word disproportionate?

    Maori offend at a rate disproportionate to their numbers in the population. That sadly is a fact.

    Homosexuals and bi-sexuals also offend against underage boys at a rate disproportionate to their numbers in the population. This is also a fact but liberals are in denial about this fact. They are happy to denigrate Maori usually hiding behind a pseudonym but get most upset when someone states the facts. This even went to the extent of the homosexual video censor banning a could videos that did not portray homosexuals in a good light. This was an abuse of power and his decision finally got overturn despite the government of the day paying the legal costs.

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  64. big bruv (14,132 comments) says:

    Chuck

    There is simply no point in continuing this debate if you are going to keep telling lies. My argument is supported by facts, your argument is supported by nothing more than your religious bias.

    I note that you make an appalling attempt to cherry pick your argument. The facts Chuck do not support your assertion, most sex crimes committed on underage children are committed by heterosexual men.

    And Chuck, if you really want to talk about abuse of power how about we discuss the disproportionate number of clergy who have committed unspeakable acts of depravity, and abuse, on innocent children.

    I was at first luke warm on the idea of gay marriage and gay adoption, to be honest I am still less than keen on the idea of gay adoption however I much prefer that idea than I do the thought of a child being put up for adoption and that child going to a “Traditional family” that preached hatred and religion.

    Finally Chuck, I also note that you are happy to toss around the label “Liberal” as if I am supposed to be insulted by the inference. The hilarious thing about that label Chuck is that it applies far more to you than me. You are the one defending the indefensible, you are the one who is making excuses for Maori crime. Those Chuck, are the actions of a classic liberal.

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  65. G152 (385 comments) says:

    There seem to be two major crime groups here.
    Driving while young.
    And
    Driving while brown
    This attitude raises a degree of contempt for the law

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  66. David Garrett (7,523 comments) says:

    Rex: You obviously know a lot more about the PARS business than me, so I am prepared to accept your version of events.

    I do recall however a PARS women making a submission to the Select Committee on the three strikes Bill..her submission bordered on the hysterical, to the point where she had to be asked several times by the Chair to collect herself…In short, her submission was the “Kim Workman” line – the prison population would explode; crimes rates would INCREASE rather than decrease, and there would be serious assaults on policemen by desperate second strikers trying to avoid the Grand Prize of strike three.

    Well, as we now know, since 3S came in the prison population has gone down; while there are over 4000 first strikers there are only 37 second strikers – which may say something about general deterrence – and there is no evidence of second strikers “shooting it out” to avoid a third. That of course may possibly happen in time, since at this point we have no third strikers. Crime rates have apparently dropped – notwithstanding some stat fiddling in Counties – Manukau.

    Anyway, quite apart from the contents of her submission, I was singularly unimpressed by this woman’s performance. ( I agree that that is only marginally relevant to what you have said Rex)

    G152: I have no problem with the cops pulling up young people – especially at night – to check they have the appropriate licence.

    Do you have any proper evidence that there is a widespread phenomenon of people being picked up for “driving while Brown”??

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  67. RRM (10,001 comments) says:

    Welcome to Antipodes Island Dungeon.

    There is no TV, dope, cultural sensitivity or heated floors here.

    YOU are here because YOUR behaviour is not good enough.

    Your 3mx 3m concrete block cell is over there somewhere.

    Your bucket for shitting in will be emptied Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays.

    After 12 months of continuous good behaviour you can apply for a lid for your shit bucket.

    Sharing a room with shit may be unpleasant. However please remember you are shit too.
    That’s why you are here.

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  68. CharlieBrown (1,027 comments) says:

    Hmmm – If John Key got rid of the maori seats and didn’t pander to the racist party he may have had no issues getting past a law that allowed people the right to decide over their own bodies. Going against people own wishes over their own body to pander to stone-age cultural beliefs is pathetic.

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  69. CharlieBrown (1,027 comments) says:

    ooops – my previous post was on the wrong thread.

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  70. deckboy (18 comments) says:

    The sad fact of the matter is that if it wasn’t for Maori offending we would hardly need a Police force!

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  71. Bogusnews (477 comments) says:

    I think this is a very good topic to discuss as long as the emphasis remains on the requirement for positive change.

    Theway I see it, the billions that have been spent on maori needs to be re evaluated. Im especially in favour of the hand up approach replacing the handout. I doubt though that will ever come up.

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  72. David Garrett (7,523 comments) says:

    Deckboy: You are closer than you probably know…the Criminologist Greg Newbold has crunched the figures on total offending vs. Maori offending…he concludes that if you took Maori out the equation our crime rate would be close to what it was in the 1950’s…i.e negligible…

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  73. Chuck Bird (4,923 comments) says:

    “There is simply no point in continuing this debate if you are going to keep telling lies. My argument is supported by facts, your argument is supported by nothing more than your religious bias.”

    BB, pot calling the kettle black. What religious bias am I meant have?

    Quote where I and making excuses for Maori crime.

    It is you that is the enabler making excuses for homosexual crime including clergy. The vast majority of crimes by clergy particularly Catholic were on boys by homosexual clergy. Many of them took job in the church as we a the boy scout because they were homosexual and there were opportunities in both these organizations.

    “most sex crimes committed on underage children are committed by heterosexual men”

    You may be surprised that I agree with you. However, do you not understand the meaning of disproportionate?

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