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August 21, 2006 5:12am by David Farrar

A Pollice ruling I don’t disagree with!

Just ity I will be overseas on Wednesdayfor the actual parade!

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New Zealand

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Comments (515)

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err..

Ben, maybe ESX could be considered an abbreviation of Essex, which in turn could be considered to stand for Essex girls.

As for AJ…

“The difference in principle between the topless parade of pornstars and me trying to convert you is that the former does so not to edify you, but to exploit you, whereas I try to convert you to edify you, not exploit you.”

Really? Funny that the people getting exploited are the ones getting paid while those in receipt of your edification are likely to end up expending money and effort as a result.

Nice buildings, them churches. A lot nicer than those which house the offices of the Exotica expo…
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August 23, 2006 6:52pm
Graham Miller

Yeah, and next I’ll be told that “BEDMAS” (a timeless classic in the mathematical realm) has something to do with getting laid…
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August 23, 2006 6:55pm
phil u

hey cheswa..it’s broom-time…

you need to tie your shoelaces together..and stick a broom thru them..

because you are on a code red…

in serious danger of disappearing up your own arse…

you are so feckin’ full of it..eh..?

and it is obvious you think …in your self-deluded little mind..that you are some force/voice for good/christianity..?

lemme tell you..you ain’t..

you personify all the smallminded/bigoted/irrational/fascist/ oppressive/sexist/controlling/mindlessness of the worst who nail their colours to that mast….

there is much in christianity and christian practices/teachings to respect/admire….

you ain’t it….cheswa..

you represent the ‘dark side’ of christianity…

the perverting of those (mainly humanist)teachings of christ into some vehicle for your (self-reverential) twisted/controlling bigotry…

you really are just a little man….

who just needs a good fucking..eh..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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August 23, 2006 7:34pm
SB

Wow the TV is saying there were 20,000 people there! Q street must have been packed further down!

SB
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August 23, 2006 7:44pm
Logix

Ah, phil u …give it a rest. You and AJ are both more than entitled to express your opinions, but the intolerance is ugly. The gloating is not decorative either.

Religion and politics both have their own liberal and conservative traditions, and people who in their over-zealous committment to each, prove each other BOTH wrong, and BOTH loose sight of their actual purpose.

Now rather than persisting in this futile attempt at bashing each other into submission…how about trying a different tack…with the real purpose in mind?
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August 23, 2006 8:00pm
A.J.Chesswas

Ben…

“Why go to all the trouble of a wedding if you then find she’s not your bag? I can tell you for an absolutely certain fact that there’s no point at all getting married to a woman who you don’t want to have sex with.”

With that statement you are joining SB, Phil & George in the “no respect for female dignity” group of mysogynists.

“I don’t respect your choice or even understand it.”

What can’t you understand about respecting the privacy of a woman’s sexuality, and enhancing the meaning and bond of mariage?

“And I sure as hell can’t stomach taking any kind of advice or sermonizing from you on a matter that you know almost nothing about.”

There’s one thing I do know about that you know nothing about, and that’s trying to participate in a pseudo-macho sex-saturated NZ Society as a chaste batchelor committed to marriage and the dignity of women.

“Do you know what an anagram is btw?”

Woops, I think I used the wrong word. What’s the word for the linguitic device where all the letters stand for something?

SB…

Aj: “We could do with some encouragement and support in our commitment” if you want [encouragement and support in our commitment to chastity” that then you have to explain what the point of it is?”

The point of that would be a belief in the value of women, marriage, family, society and the future. The point of that would be a recognition of what you yourself would gain by contributing positively to the moral integrty of your world.

“If you are looking for a madonna and keep on finding whores you have a problem.”

You’re right, I have a problem, and that problem is blokes like you who have turned Madonnas into whores.

Mr Miller…

“Sorry, but this immediately runs into the problem that the means (your religious edification) justifies the end (the offence) – as a matter of your subjective judgment.”

Not at all. If I am helping you towards a greater degree of self-control and respect for women in my attmpts at persuasion, surely that is a better end than a pornographer’s attempts to manipulate your base desires in order to line their pockets.

Err…

Reading comprehension skills mate… Do you get paid to consume pornography? And that was a cheap comment about expending money. I’ve been “sermonising” (apparently) for more than 300 comments now, and I havent handed round a collection plate just yet.

Not quite sure what Mr Whoar’s comments achieved.

Finally, to answer a question raised a while ago, why does this joker from deep in the Taranaki, from the bustling metrpolis of Stratford, care abut what’s going happening on Queens Street? I find it a little ironic that the reason for this whole mess was born and raised just down the road in little old Inglewood. I am proud of my homeland, but we have produced one of the greatest liabilities our nation has ever known. On behalf of Taranaki I repent, ask your forgiveness, and endeavour to do all I can to reverse the work of Mr Steve Crow.
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August 23, 2006 8:15pm
Danyl Mclauchlan

What can’t you understand about respecting the privacy of a woman’s sexuality, and enhancing the meaning and bond of mariage?

This just gets better and better. What the hell do you know about female sexuality and the meaning of marriage? And why would you think for a second that you can lecture a bunch of married guys on the issue without looking like a deluded joke?

Woops, I think I used the wrong word. What’s the word for the linguitic device where all the letters stand for something?

Mnemonic. Eg. Kinky Pat Came Over For Great Sex.

There’s one thing I do know about that you know nothing about, and that’s trying to participate in a pseudo-macho sex-saturated NZ Society as a chaste batchelor committed to marriage and the dignity of women.

And if that’s what we were discussing then I’d be happy to your authority. As it is we’re discussing pornography, sex and female sexuality – topics on which you have admitted you are utterly ignorant of but also feel you are an unimpeachable authority on – and you apparently see no contradiction between these two positions.
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August 23, 2006 8:36pm
Danyl Mclauchlan

What can’t you understand about respecting the privacy of a woman’s sexuality, and enhancing the meaning and bond of mariage?

This just gets better and better. What the hell do you know about female sexuality and the meaning of marriage? And why would you think for a second that you can lecture a bunch of married guys on the issue without looking like a deluded joke?

Woops, I think I used the wrong word. What’s the word for the linguitic device where all the letters stand for something?

Mnemonic. Eg. Kinky Pat Came Over For Great Sex.

There’s one thing I do know about that you know nothing about, and that’s trying to participate in a pseudo-macho sex-saturated NZ Society as a chaste batchelor committed to marriage and the dignity of women.

And if that’s what we were discussing then I’d be happy to accept your authority. As it is we’re discussing pornography, sex and female sexuality – topics on which you have admitted you are utterly ignorant of but also feel you are an unimpeachable authority on – and you apparently see no contradiction between these two positions.
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August 23, 2006 8:37pm
Graham Miller

If I am helping you towards a greater degree of self-control and respect for women in my attmpts at persuasion, surely that is a better end than a pornographer’s attempts to manipulate your base desires in order to line their pockets.

Thank you for confirming that the end DOES justify the means.

Just so we’re all clear about this: you believe that religious edification IS justified, and those of us who are offended with your attempts to “re-educate” us should take our punishment, if you would find an alternative scenario even more offensive.

If you don’t see this as paternalistic, then we’ll need to start with “P in the dictionary before playing jiggery-poke with mnemonics.

Nice work – NOW we’re making progress.
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August 23, 2006 9:03pm
K1

To all those who have been trying to hold a serious logical argument with AJ for the last 300 or so comments, I have only one question – haven’t you ever invited the door-knocking, pamphlet-bearing lot, wossname, Mormons, in and tried to convince them that they’re full of crap? It’s the kind of thing you can only do once or twice before you realise it’s just easier to hit your head sharply against the wall a few times. I think it’s a sort of paradigm incompatibility – you’re not in the same universe, you’ll never introduce change to the other person’s views no matter what you do. In their minds, they always win. Your reason vs their faith, no contest – they’re just too damn invested. I know, I was there once myself (kinda). The only thing you can hope for is that reality (no AJ, I don’t mean “God”) gradually impinges and they come back to sensibility. Far too many I knew are now full time guests in mental hospitals or done some serious drug rehab post inevitable crash. No shit, I think the rubber band holding their wacky views and the real world together eventually snaps under pressure.

And before I get accused of religion-bashing, I have no major problems with religion (well, ok, there’s the “kill the unbeliever!” bit, and the “I’m right and you’re wrong” bit, and a few others, but forgetting them for the mo). If people want to belong to their preferred flavour of Invisible Friends Club, it’s not my place to intervene. Seems a bit silly to me, tho, from where I am now, having been a flag-waving hyper-pentecostal tongue-talking nutter, and a heavy-on-the-tradition cathedral dweller, and a few other flavours besides before realising life just isn’t that complicated.

BTW Danyl, core to buddhist views (and Gautama’s teachings I think) is an instruction not to just blindly believe what you’re taught, but to figure it out for yourself. Sorry, I realise that’s about 150 posts ago, but it had to be said. (Have to say buddhism would be my fave religion, although it’s debatable if it’s a religion at all, at the core). The smartest people I’ve ever come across are buddhists in some form or other.

And AJ, I could be a patronising git and tell you from where I sit you’re just a young, repressed fella who’s still ruled by fear and guilt, and there’s a whole nicer world out there, entry into which does not mean becoming evil and more loathsome. You too can love yourself. In fact, you too can have a firm comittment to justice, integrity and self-respect (which is kinda like dignity, but without the overtones of rank or position – y’know as in “dignitaries”) without needing the rest of the mental clutter. But that would be silly, because you probably wouldn’t hear me anyway. Best of luck. from what I’ve seen, you may need it.
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August 23, 2006 9:19pm
Lucyna

Danyl said This just gets better and better. What the hell do you know about female sexuality and the meaning of marriage? And why would you think for a second that you can lecture a bunch of married guys on the issue without looking like a deluded joke?

Danyl, pardon me if I’m wrong, but I got the very strong impression a little while ago that you were gay. So, if you are, aren’t you being just a touch hypocritical?
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August 23, 2006 9:49pm
Paul Marsden

The views and vehement being expressed here is a reminder to me of why wars start.

Sanctimonious individuals endeavouring to press their beliefs upon one another.

Greed, women and religion.
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August 23, 2006 9:49pm
Ben Wilson

AJ, I think acronym may have been the word you are looking for. Like BASIC=Beginners All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code. Perhaps mnemonic, like SOH CAH TOA in trig. The best acronyms are mnemonic.

You say I’m a misogynist with no respect for female dignity, because I say that getting married to someone you don’t want sex with is a stupid idea. I don’t see it. What is the purpose of marriage, in your view? Bible classes?

You talk of the privacy of their sexuality. I’m not suggesting rape, man, I’m suggesting consenting sex. They let you enter their ‘privacy’, and you find out if it’s to your mutual satisfaction. Nothing seems more stupid to me than marrying someone who you can’t do that with. You will certainly have a very messy divorce or a very unhappy and pointless marriage.

And yes, I do know nothing about what it would be like to be committed to such a ridiculous strategy. I’m not fond of making a cockup of my life so, yeah, I’m not really sure *exactly* what that would be like, other than that it would be bad. I’ve never tried buying a car without even having one test drive and at least a look under the hood, but I know people who have, and they’ve usually bought a lemon.

And in case you jump on your high horse over that statement, it’s an ‘analogy’, as distinct from an ‘acronym’, or an ‘anagram’ or any other of your vast list of malapropisms. It’s not postmodern or urban liberal, it’s just a way of explaining something to people who can’t grasp logical statements. I’m not saying women are cars, or indeed objects. I’m merely saying that when you undertake a big commitment you should establish whether the basic requirements are met. Otherwise you are stupid, stupid fool, and you will live to regret it.
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August 23, 2006 10:02pm
phil u

did anyone else see a.j. guesting on the sopranos tonight..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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August 23, 2006 10:24pm
err..

“Reading comprehension skills mate… Do you get paid to consume pornography?”

Oh, sorry, I thought you were talking about the dignity of women. So it’s actually my dignity that is shamed by a topless parade in Queen Street that I missed, yet which my girlfriend was rather amused by? So we’re down to “women should keep their tops on because it is degrading to men”? Yowch.

“And that was a cheap comment about expending money. I’ve been “sermonising” (apparently) for more than 300 comments now, and I havent handed round a collection plate just yet.”

Yeah, well, you’d have to successfully convert somebody to your viewpoint first wouldn’t you?
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August 23, 2006 11:05pm
phil u

btw..a.j….

where do you stand on the dinosaurs millions of years old vs. “they must have been running around with humans ‘cos everything is only six thousand years old..’cos that’s when the creation of everything happened..?…”…question…

basically..do you think carbon dating is a big con..?

and after that..could we have a quick squizz at that vexed subject of the ‘rapture..’

where do you stand on the ‘rapture’ question..?

a.j….?
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August 23, 2006 11:24pm
A.J.Chesswas

Danyl,

“What the hell do you know about female sexuality and the meaning of marriage? And why would you think for a second that you can lecture a bunch of married guys on the issue without looking like a deluded joke?”

Guess what, you don’t have to have sex with a woman to know how she thinks. That’s if you care how she thinks. What do I know about marriage? Funny you ask, both my father and my mother are married…. But then I guess that is pretty rare these days. Especially 27 years of it…

Mr Miller,

Of course I see my approach to you in argument paternalistic. It is difficult not to be patronising when a person can’t use reason in an argument, and has to have things repeated 3 or 4 times for them…

K1, welcome to the debate.

I agree, there is a paradigm incompatibility. These guys can’t call into question their belief in the self-sufficient and autonomous human being. Furthermore, although they admit that principles of human dignity and justice guide our understanding of morality, they cannot show how a topless parade of pornographic actors is consistent with those principles. Nonetheless they believe it could be possible to do so, and suspend judgment on Steve Crow, his buddies, and those who observed the parade.

The most significant difference is my belief that the numerous certain harmful effects of pornography outweigh the potential unknown positive effects, and thus am confident in deeming it immoral. In a sense it does take a step of faith, but only a very small one. It would take me a bigger step of faith to just ignore the phenomenon and consider it amoral. The evidence stacks up against pornography (broken marriages, addictions, effects on character & self-esteem, misogyny, offense to millions), not for it. Thus it is not their reason vs my faith, but their faith vs my reason.

There is this silly idea out there that somehow non-religious people are better at applying reason. I can see no evidence for this idea in this thread. And there is no way I will end up in a mental hospital, unless guys like these get in power and declares anyone who disagrees with moral relativism clinically insane.
And for your information, I am not ruled by fear and guilt. I am caught up into a beautiful vision of the universe at its optimum, and it pains me to see the state we are in today. I love myself more than you know (I think that’s probably obvious to most people)! I do not consider an understanding of sexuality that honours the bodies of women and the self-control of men “mental clutter”, and I fail to see how one could be truly committed to justgice, integrity and self-respect without such an understanding.
Finally, Ben…

Of course sex is a part of marriage, but you don’t go writing a person’s sexual ability off because of one bad performance. A bit of communication and a few tips should see you right, but then what would I know, I’ve never been married and never had sex!! I just can’t imagine it’d be that bad you would want to get out of your marriage. There must be counselors and therapists for that sort of thing. And if you end up with a basket-case then I guess that’s just life. Someone has to have her; why not you?

“Nothing seems more stupid to me than marrying someone who you can’t do that with. You will certainly have a very messy divorce or a very unhappy and pointless marriage.”

All I know is that there’s way more to marriage than sex. You don’t need to be married to understand this. And you are certainly not in a position to say “You will certainly have a very messy divorce or a very unhappy and pointless marriage”, after all you’re the one telling me I can’t be an authority on something I haven’t experienced.

“I’m not fond of making a cockup of my life so, yeah, I’m not really sure *exactly* what that would be like, other than that it would be bad.”

Same again. Sorry, you have no authority to comment, you have admitted it.

I understand your car analogy, but let me say one thing. If I was trying to sell you a new car I’ll let you take it round the block and up the road for 5 mins for a test drive, but I wouldn’t let you take it for a 6-hour road trip. If I let people take it out for 6-hour road trips it would pretty quickly lose its value. But the 5 min trip up the road should give you an idea of whether its general personality will sustain you for a road trip once you’ve purchased it. You might find out later it needs some tweaking and tuning to better suit your driving, but that shouldn’t be too big an issue.

“I’m merely saying that when you undertake a big commitment you should establish whether the basic requirements are met. Otherwise you are stupid, stupid fool, and you will live to regret it.”

Sounds to me you don’t care about the basic requirements. You want to know that your tastes and preferences are suited to a tee. Why? Because you’re selfish, and scared of change. If you’re going to spend the rest of your life with a woman, you better make sure you love her so much that it wouldn’t matter how bad the sex was.

Lol Phil lets not have a big debate on those questions, but…

DINOSAURS: No idea.

RAPTURE: No idea
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August 23, 2006 11:36pm
A.J.Chesswas

What I was getting at with the car thing: round the block and 5 mins up the road is dating (ie doing things other than sex), 6 hour road trip is sex…
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August 23, 2006 11:42pm
Graham Miller

Of course I see my approach to you in argument paternalistic. It is difficult not to be patronising when a person can’t use reason in an argument, and has to have things repeated 3 or 4 times for them.

Indeed – we’re all noticed that you need to have things repeated 3 or 4 times for you. Now how about addressing my question. Or is that too hard?
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August 23, 2006 11:51pm
A.J.Chesswas

I just addressed your question;

“you believe that religious edification IS justified, and those of us who are offended with your attempts to “re-educate” us should take our punishment, if you would find an alternative scenario even more offensive”

I can’t see why you would be offended at someone insisting they are right and doing so in order to help you. The local JWs have taken a liking to me, they do it whenever they come around, but I don’t find it offensive…

However it it easy to see why people are offended by pornography…

So there you go, it’s not even paternalistic of me to think this, it’s just plain common-sense…

If you get offended every time someone thinks they’re right and you’re wrong you’re not going to learn a hell of a lot in life…
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August 24, 2006 12:07am
Graham Miller

The question:

And could you please address my point above about a carve-out for Christianity from the moral standards which you would impose on others? Is the balance between the “right” not to be offended and the “right” to offend others appropriate struck if, on your reasoning, a Christian has the right to preach to others no matter how much they may find that offensive?

It’s a really simple question – now how about answering it?
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August 24, 2006 12:11am
A.J.Chesswas

I would disagree that a Christian has the right to preach no matter how much it is found offensive. Wherever you find the issue of offence dealt with in law and policy it is generally preceded by the term “reasonable”. If the offendee has good reason to consider themselves offended then surely they are well within their rights to ask the Christian preacher to shut up…
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August 24, 2006 8:10am
Danyl Mclauchlan

Danyl, pardon me if I’m wrong, but I got the very strong impression a little while ago that you were gay. So, if you are, aren’t you being just a touch hypocritical?

Hello Lucyna. You are – as usual – totally wrong, but I’d be vastly amused to know where I gave you ‘the very strong impression’ that I was gay.
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August 24, 2006 8:31am
err..

“And if you end up with a basket-case then I guess that’s just life. Someone has to have her; why not you?”

Somebody in life has to empty the bins, too. I can give you a bunch of reasons why that shouldn’t be me: I can do other stuff that the guys who’re emptying the bins can’t.

Why shouldn’t I end up with a woman who’s totally uninterested in having a fulfilling sex life? Because there’s guys out there who are similarly disinterested in making an effort. They can go find one of them. Just because somebody has to end up in a shit situation doesn’t mean I shouldn’t make an effort to avoid it in my own life. There’s people like you to do it for me, thankfully.

Contrary to your comprehension of the situation AJ there are in fact plenty of women who enjoy an active sex life and have wide and varied interests. Some of these women will like things that frankly turn me off. I probably like some things that will turn others off. So, rather than forcing one of these poor women to spend her life with me in sexual dissatisfaction I’d rather make sure things are compatible on that level before committing to anything.

You’re right, there is more to a long-term relationship than sex. It’s possible to have a great sexual relationship with somebody you can’t have a great emotional relationship with. But a bad sexual relationship can be poison to a relationship. It’s like a house with rotting foundations. Sure, a house with great foundations and mould up the walls is no good either. You need it to be solid on all levels.

Finding the right person is not easy, because you have to find a person who fits with you on all of these levels. This takes time, and there’s a clock counting down.

Unfortunately for you AJ you’re likely running out of time, because your youth is when you are afforded the opportunity to learn and explore your sexuality in aid of finding somebody who is a good match to you on all these levels. As you get older women will stop seeing endearing innocence and start seeing woeful ignorance. Indeed, you’re old enough now that it’s probably passed that stage already.
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August 24, 2006 9:15am
A.J.Chesswas

Just as well I don’t take advice from random cyberspace sleazeballs I have never met. Just as well I have seen example after example that contradict every word you have to say. Just as well I have a conscience…
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August 24, 2006 9:26am
A.J.Chesswas

Also let’s just be practical… I don’t think there are many women who ahve the same faith in contraception that you have. The other reason for marriage is to give her that security to go ahead, knowing that if she becomes pregnant you will be there for her… NO MATTER WHAT…

But then. hey, these days it’s legal to kill a foetus so who cares…(NOTE: heavy, heavy sarcasm there)…

Abortion is criminal…
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August 24, 2006 9:29am
Lucyna

Danyl,

Your involvement in the gay marriage debates on Sir Humphreys on the pro-side. There was something you said in particular soon before you were bannned. And all of the passionately pro-side were gay, so … but, anyway, if you say you are not, I’ll believe you. Just be careful with the arguments you get involved in. People watchers like me, notice.
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August 24, 2006 9:30am
A.J.Chesswas

I think the thing is, if you didn’t do the whole virgin/chastity/marriage thing, then someone challenges you that maybe you should have, there would be very little person gain from sayign “yeah you’re right” because there’s nothing you can do about it now. Most of us like to be positive about our lives, and formulate our opinions and philosophies in accordance with the choices we have already made. No-one wants regrets, no-one likes to think they got second-best in their life. No-one wants to admit they have made mistakes…

I guess I’m advantaged in this regard… after all, I could be like you guys anytime I wanted, but you could never again be like me…
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August 24, 2006 10:06am
Ben Wilson

Err, I’m inclined to agree with AJ on this one. Someone has to have the rejects. Why not him? He sounds like he’d be well satisfied with the yuckiest cold fish, and someone’s gotta take them out of the pool sure. Basically the first chick that shags him has got his sorry arse on a plate for life, and I’m damn sure she’ll make his life a misery.

AJ, so much to object to in your rebuttal!

One performance is not enough, sure. I’d suggest at least a few dozen. Better still, try living with them for a while.

A bit of communication and a few tips will NOT see you right. What would you know is exactly right. Some people have fundamental incompatibility. And there is a big difference between average ho hum lame sex and good sex. Not that you will ever know, unless you wise up real fast.

I am in a position to tell you that one of the main causes of divorce is sexual incompatibility. It’s a public fact. If you don’t want to have sex with your wife any more, then most men can’t see any further reason to have to put up with them.

Once again, there are some things you don’t have to experience to know they would be bad. Sometimes it’s blatantly obvious. But you are blind to the blatantly obvious. If you don’t want to have sex with a woman, then there’s no need to get married, is there? You could just be mates, hold hands and talk lovingly about the bible, or whatever it is rocks your boat. You could happily be a lifelong bachelor, never experiencing sexual release at all, except from unconcious nocturnal emissions, wherein your subconcious tell you what should be blatantly obvious to your concious.

I’m not sure what you think sex is if you think it’s to a date as a 5 minute test drive is to a 6 hour road trip. Personally I’ve never experienced sex that lasted 72 times longer than a date (or a number of dates in this analogy). I think a better analogy would be the date is the test drive, and the sex is putting your foot down.

This is a good analogy on many levels. Firstly, power not the only thing you want in a car, but it’s a very important thing. It makes the car fun to drive, it makes you want to get into it and let it rip. It becomes a car you get emotionally attached to. Secondly, a lot of salespeople don’t want you to do it. They usually use the reason that it will reduce the value of the car. But that’s bullshit unless the car is already stuffed. If you can’t put your foot down, you don’t want the car – they’re hiding something. Either it is stuffed and it will conk out, or more likely, you’ll be extremely disappointed with how weak it is. Thirdly, buying a car off a salesperson is a dumb idea anyway, unless it’s brand spanking new. I’d so much rather get it from the previous owner, ask them all the questions about it that the salesperson will just lie about because they don’t know, deal with a normal person rather than a con-artist, not be pressured into paying a lot more than it’s worth, even indebting myself. That is how you end up with a lemon that costs you heaps. With a woman you can magnify the cost about 100-fold, and the lemony bitterness if she’s the wrong choice.

Your last comment just has to be quoted in it’s naked stupidity:
“Sounds to me you don’t care about the basic requirements. You want to know that your tastes and preferences are suited to a tee. Why? Because you’re selfish, and scared of change. If you’re going to spend the rest of your life with a woman, you better make sure you love her so much that it wouldn’t matter how bad the sex was.”

Since marriage is meant to be for life, and I really do believe that – divorce is not something you should plan on, it’s a really bad scenario, a last resort – I think that wanting my tastes and preferences to be suited to a tee is not unreasonable. It’s not because I’m selfish, it’s because I’m not a stupid ignorant fool who settles for shit because he’s too scared to drive a better bargain. You’re the kind of guy car salesmen love, a real sucker. You’d buy a lemon and love it anyway. You’d spend your life savings trying to keep it going and shed a tear when it was finally consigned to the scrapheap that the dealer should have put it on in the first place.

Or more likely, you’d realize the error of your ways and set fire to the car in a rage one day. That’s the biggest danger of being as stupid as you advocate – that it fucks up the other person too. You would quite happily use your prudish ignorance to fuck up another person’s life, and I think that’s simply wicked. You can’t hide behind your bible when you do things like that, although I’m sure you’ll try.
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August 24, 2006 10:11am
Ben Wilson

Lucyna, re: Danyl. Anyone can see you can be passionate about other people’s rights.
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August 24, 2006 10:21am
Graham Miller

I’m not sure what you think sex is if you think it’s to a date as a 5 minute test drive is to a 6 hour road trip. Personally I’ve never experienced sex that lasted 72 times longer than a date (or a number of dates in this analogy). I think a better analogy would be the date is the test drive, and the sex is putting your foot down.

Ben – that was hilarious!

I’m going to nominate you for an Oscar… services to good-taste humour 🙂
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August 24, 2006 10:31am
A.J.Chesswas

“And there is a big difference between average ho hum lame sex and good sex. Not that you will ever know”

And that is exactly my point. So it will never even matter to me.

“If you don’t want to have sex with your wife any more, then most men can’t see any further reason to have to put up with them”

If this is true for “most men” then New Zealand really does have a problem. Here’s a reason to put up with them – she’s the mother of your children…

“If you don’t want to have sex with a woman, then there’s no need to get married, is there?”

Of course I want to have sex with a woman. But I trust that whoever I marry, no matter who they are, will be capable of satisfying that desire. If you truly love your wife, and know how to communicate, I don’t understand how it could be such the big deal you make it out to be.

“I think a better analogy would be the date is the test drive, and the sex is putting your foot down.”

The sex is putting your foot down for an extended amount of time. In the initial test drive(s) you learn enough about the person’s character and personality to be able to trust they will see you through every and any issue, including sexual issues.

“It’s not because I’m selfish, it’s because I’m not a stupid ignorant fool who settles for shit because he’s too scared to drive a better bargain.”

I’m no ignorant fool, I just prioritise a woman’s security and dignity over any whimsical sexual fantasy I might happen to have, which would be nil-few anyway in comparison to you – I say that because the amount of focus you put on the sex act says to me that you spend a lot of time fantasizing about it. You’ve probably seen all sorts of perverse things that you would have done well to stay away from…

So address these comments…

Also let’s just be practical… I don’t think there are many women who ahve the same faith in contraception that you have. The other reason for marriage is to give her that security to go ahead, knowing that if she becomes pregnant you will be there for her… NO MATTER WHAT…

But then. hey, these days it’s legal to kill a foetus so who cares…(NOTE: heavy, heavy sarcasm there)…

Abortion is criminal…
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August 24, 2006 10:35am
Danyl Mclauchlan

Your involvement in the gay marriage debates on Sir Humphreys on the pro-side. There was something you said in particular soon before you were bannned. And all of the passionately pro-side were gay, so … but, anyway, if you say you are not, I’ll believe you. Just be careful with the arguments you get involved in. People watchers like me, notice.

Here’s the gay marriage thread Lucyna is referring to. Readers can decide for themselves whether or not my arguments are ‘gay’, and whether, based on the quality of her arguments in this thread anyone should care if a creepy little loser like Lucyna is watching them or not.
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August 24, 2006 10:45am
Ben Wilson

Graham, surely you’ve felt that the thrill of a grunty machine is comparable to sex at times? That’s really the biggest problem with greenism – they underrate the sexual energy contained in powerful machinery, how strongly it binds to the human psyche. If they want people to rally to their cause they really need mean green machines. I’m personally waiting for the hybrid MR2.
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August 24, 2006 10:50am
Lucyna

Danyl, it wasn’t just that one. There were a number. And consider what you said earlier on this thread:

Its becoming abundently clear that AJ needs a girlfriend. A few weeks of mood swings, manipulation, emotional blackmail and hormone induced temper-tantrums will cure you of this ‘all females are sacred’ bullshit real quick.

So far only you and Craig have said anything negative about women.

You did open yourself up to this scrutiny, Danyl, with your attacks on AJ’s virginity.
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August 24, 2006 10:58am
Graham Miller

So far only you and Craig have said anything negative about women

Not according to AJ, who’s sprayed the “misogynist” label around like fashionable confetti:

With that statement you [meaning Ben] are joining SB, Phil & George in the “no respect for female dignity” group of mysogynists.
Posted by A.J.Chesswas | August 23, 2006 8:15 PM
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August 24, 2006 11:05am
A.J.Chesswas

And this is why I bother persevering into the hundreds of comments. The insights you get when you try and tackle these sorts of guys head on are profound…
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August 24, 2006 11:05am
A.J.Chesswas

How did you miss out Graham? Wonder what your problem is…
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August 24, 2006 11:07am
Lucyna

Here’s some more threads on Marriage for anyone that would like a broader context for the debate.

Danyl neglects to mention that on the thread he’s linked to in particular, my sensitivity to the Holocaust in Poland is linked to the fact that I am Polish and that my mother’s family were in Nazi occupied Poland during WW2 and my father’s family were deported to the Gulags (the real ones) by the Soviets, so this whole idea of a “gay holocaust” and “gays could easily be put back into the gas chambers” really doesn’t get my victim empathy going in any way.
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August 24, 2006 11:13am
Graham Miller

A surprising omission from your so-called list was “An Average Kiwi” who likes porn because it gives him something to jack off to. But, in any event, didn’t we establish yesterday that you shouldn’t judge matters about which you know, like, nothing? So who are you to pigeon-hole other people based on one or two throwaway lines? I’m sure Ben’s wife would be amazed to learn (from you) that she has a misogynist in her midst. So laughable.
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August 24, 2006 11:15am
A.J.Chesswas

True…. Nothing is one of the few things I don’t know anything about…
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August 24, 2006 11:23am
A.J.Chesswas

Don’t worry about that last comment, I misread yours…

But I asserted you don’t need to have had sex with women to understand them… In fact, if you spent more time trying to understand them rather than just having sex with them you might be able to come to the debate better informed…
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August 24, 2006 11:26am
Danyl Mclauchlan

Danyl neglects to mention that on the thread he’s linked to in particular, my sensitivity to the Holocaust in Poland is linked to the fact that I am Polish and that my mother’s family were in Nazi occupied Poland during WW2 . . .

I neglet to mention it because its not true. The thread I’ve linked to has no mention of the Holocaust, Poland, Gulags or Nazis – which is rather unusual for a debate on Sir Humphreys.

You did open yourself up to this scrutiny, Danyl, with your attacks on AJ’s virginity.

The difference between commenting on AJs virginity and your allegation that I am gay, is that AJ IS a virgin, and he has stated as such many times on this thread, while I am not gay and you have failed (yet again) to produce any evidence to support your untrue allegation that I am. Do you see the difference there? I didn’t think so.
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August 24, 2006 11:29am
Lucyna

Ben, for someone that writes as if he *knows* about male/female relationships, I’m not surprised you have to go for test drives. I’d be amazed if any woman could put up with you for long.
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August 24, 2006 11:33am
A.J.Chesswas

I think we know now why women steer clear of David Farrar’s blog. I imagine these guys spend quite a bit of time romping around these parts. Few women would have the patience, tolerance and backbone that you have Lucyna…
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August 24, 2006 11:42am
Psycho Milt

You’re not confusing Danyl with Ackers, Lucyna? He’s gay (or at least, said he is in one of those threads)
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August 24, 2006 11:48am
Danyl Mclauchlan

Few women would have the patience, tolerance and backbone that you have Lucyna…

I think you’ll find that Lucyna is actually a bloke. Or at least I assume she is . . . after all, all the other commentators on Sir Humphreys are . . .
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August 24, 2006 11:52am
A.J.Chesswas

Is that some kind of joke? Cos if it is I don’t get it..
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August 24, 2006 11:55am
Ben Wilson

Lucyna, your amazement comes as no surprise to me, since your perceptions are awry on so many matters. I’ve been married for years, and was with my wife before that for years more. And I’ve had other long relationships before that. But you’re very quick to make zero evidence conclusions from your prejudices, so your being amazed is quite natural, and will continue for a long time.
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August 24, 2006 12:20pm
Lucyna

Psycho, no I’m not.

Danyl, one blogger on another site and a commenter on our site has met me. So I am real, and I’m not a bloke.
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August 24, 2006 12:20pm
AL

I don’t think Ackers has said that, Psycho.

And look at the dim-troll work his magic! Has he called anyone Adolf Hitler yet?
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August 24, 2006 12:42pm
A.J.Chesswas

lol not another “Adolf Hitler” labeller… always a sure sign one’s argument is lacking substance when they resort to giving people the Hitler label…
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August 24, 2006 12:47pm
Lucyna

AL, he did. It’s where he says he’s also raised a boy to adulthood.
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August 24, 2006 12:48pm
Danyl Mclauchlan

AL re Ackers desciring himself as gay:

I don’t think Ackers has said that

Ackers, in the linked thread: I am a gay man

AL re me: And look at the dim-troll work his magic! Has he called anyone Adolf Hitler yet?

Can you provide a link to a thread in which I’ve called anyone Hitler? Or better yet, can any of the Sir Humphreys clowns make ANY allegation for which they have the slightest evidence?

Lucyna, on why she thinks I’m gay:

Your involvement in the gay marriage debates on Sir Humphreys on the pro-side . . . And all of the passionately pro-side were gay, so …

So I wrote: I think you’ll find that Lucyna is actually a bloke. Or at least I assume she is . . . after all, all the other commentators on Sir Humphreys are . . .

And AJ replied: Is that some kind of joke? Cos if it is I don’t get it..

Which seems to sum things up nicely . . .
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August 24, 2006 12:55pm
Ben Wilson

AJ, you persist in your completely uninformed comments about sex. When are you going to realize you’re like a child when it comes to this issue?

You mistake me terribly when you assert that sex is the most important issue to me. I’m merely saying it’s *an* important issue, something you’ve spent tens of thousands of words denying despite having no experience of it at all. You’re like the people who refused to look through Galileo’s telescope because it might refute their theories.

You are deliberately blind and trying to dress that as some kind of virtue. It isn’t, it’s just blindness. And there’s nothing more annoying than a blind man arguing with a sighted person about what colour something is.
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August 24, 2006 1:00pm
Lucyna

What was that you said about “rejects”, Ben? You found someone that hasn’t run screaming for the hills. Good for you.
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August 24, 2006 1:05pm
Danyl Mclauchlan

Hey Lucyna – how is it that you’ve found Ackers quote almost instantly but haven’t managed to find my ‘gay’ arguments? Having a little trouble there?

Maybe you could abandon the search and help AL prove his allegation about me making Hitler comparisons?
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August 24, 2006 1:12pm
phil u

no..lucyna is a woman…but she does wander around wearing metal breastplates…

a la zena..eh?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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August 24, 2006 1:24pm
Lucyna

Danyl (aka DIM for the searchers out there),

I remembered the context. I didn’t find it. Just like I’ve remembered that you’ve said a number of things that add up to you being gay. I have one of those memories where I remember things about people. I find people interesting.

Now, trying to find exactly where something was said is a little more problematic, given that our site doesn’t recognise people’s names as a search term – it’s only if their name is mentioned in a comment or post that they can be found, or if they are a registered user. Which I notice, you never registered.

What’s also interesting is the number of times the word “lying” came in close proximity with the comments that were made to you – under the name DIM. Does it mean anything? Maybe.

As for the Hilter comparisons, AL travels around the blogosphere into places I don’t go. Who knows where he got that impression about you. For now, I’d be more inclined to trust him than you, even though he missed the “Ackers revelation”.
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August 24, 2006 1:33pm
Danyl Mclauchlan

What’s also interesting is the number of times the word “lying” came in close proximity with the comments that were made to you – under the name DIM. Does it mean anything? Maybe.

Given that I’ve been able to prove that you’re a liar in this very thread this is a rather ironic claim coming from you (I’ll give AL a little longer to try and justify his allegation, but I think we all know that he too will be shown to have been dishonest).

But let’s see these threads in which I’ve been shown to be a liar. Or is this yet ANOTHER case in which you’ll be unable to find them but insist that they’re out there somewhere?

Incidentally, I’d avoid using the slow, clusmy search feature on your site and use google instead. Simply prefix the search with site:www.sirhumphreys.com and then put in your search terms. Happy hunting . . .
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August 24, 2006 1:48pm
A.J.Chesswas

Ben, while I’m not qualified to speak on the quality of marital sex, I have countless numbers of friends and fellow churchgoers who are. The best marriages I have seen, where 50, 60, 70, 80 year olds are still smiling and in love like they’re 16, are those marriages where respect for the other person comes first and foremost, fidelity has been honoured (at least as far as we know), and the trauma you seem to face, of whether or not they’re having mindblowing sex, doesn’t seem to be an issue to them…

You really do need to get out more. I have had more than my fair share of people with attitudes like you, through my public schooling and my time at university. You give me the impression you have never met a decent moral human being ever in your life…
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August 24, 2006 1:52pm
Ben Wilson

Lucyna, you don’t have anything to say, other than stupid speculation which is an attempt to annoy. Not sure what that’s about, I can only guess that you’re annoyed that I don’t fall to my knees when you make your periodic utterances like half of the regulars here do. Sorry about that – it’s part of what I call ‘feminism’ that I treat you equally badly to anyone who I think is talking shit.
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August 24, 2006 2:04pm
A.J.Chesswas

And that is when feminism went wrong, when men started seeing at is this idea they should treat women the same way they treat women, and expect equally from women what they expect from men…

Have you noticed no wommen want to come near DPF’s blog Ben? Perhaps it’s time you rethought your anthropology, and started picking on people your own size…
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August 24, 2006 2:15pm
Ben Wilson

AJ, what the hell do you know about the sex lives of your fellow churchgoers, how and why? Maybe they are having mindblowing sex and you’re just missing out.

Like Lucyna, you’re now speculating with psychobabble about who I’ve met, how often I get out etc. The real truth is you don’t like what I’m saying because it cuts too close to the bone.

You’re very happy to lecture people about the morality of something that you have childish ignorance of, and I sure met a lot of people like that at varsity too. But I didn’t make the mistake of thinking they were good people *because of that*. They may have been good people. All I had to go on was that they were annoying interfering people, which I don’t consider good.

I think Lucyna is big enough to fight her own battles. She picked the fight in the first place. It should be a lesson, and I think it’s very patronizing of you to suggest I should treat her differently because she’s female. I’m sure she’d disagree, and is right now penning some ad hominem for me.
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August 24, 2006 2:21pm
Danyl Mclauchlan

it’s part of what I call ‘feminism’ . . .

I doubt that’s going to cut much ice with Lucyna – she considers feminism to be part of a vast communist plot to destroy families and enslave humanity.

No, really
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August 24, 2006 2:25pm
Lucyna

DIM, type in “DIM” into our search engine. As explained in my comment – that you yourself quote.

As for proving I’m a liar on this very thread – what are you talking about?

I found what was the thing that made me think you were gay – your use of the term “hate speech” in your final farewell at SH. Who uses “hate speech” in describing anything they don’t like … hmmm?

The fact that you were about holiday in Europe for the winter as well. An expensive trip right in Europe’s peak season. By itself, innocuous, but add everything up with “hate speech”, dislike of women in a way that normal men don’t, it looks pretty damn suspicious.

But as I said, I’ll have to take your word for it that you aren’t. But you did want to know why and you did open yourself up for this level of scrutiny with your attacks on AJ’s virginity.
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August 24, 2006 2:29pm
Ben Wilson

Danyl, that may be, but it’s something dear to me. So I will treat Lucyna with all the respect she’s given me – absolutely none.
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August 24, 2006 2:29pm
Lucyna

Ben Wilson, you really ought to go back and read your initial comments to me. I tend to treat people well, unless they cross the line. And your comments on women and how you treat them are just stone-age. No, I take that back – stone age men are probably much nicer. I wouldn’t have been surprised if you had written that you check all your women’s teeth, too.

Though you are correct about one thing – I can take care of myself.
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August 24, 2006 2:35pm
Danyl Mclauchlan

I found what was the thing that made me think you were gay – your use of the term “hate speech” in your final farewell at SH. Who uses “hate speech” in describing anything they don’t like … hmmm?

Well, if you do a search on the term ‘hate speech’ you’ll find that almost all of your fellow Sir Humphreys contributers use the word hate speech to describe things they don’t like.

The fact that you were about holiday in Europe for the winter as well. An expensive trip right in Europe’s peak season. By itself, innocuous, but add everything up . . . it looks pretty damn suspicious.

Nice one Lucyna. You are now an utter laughing-stock. My work here is done.
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August 24, 2006 2:38pm
Lucyna

No, DIM. Just because you say it, doens’t make it so. If people actually click on the link, they will see just what type of person you are.
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August 24, 2006 2:41pm
A.J.Chesswas

Ben, you said,

“AJ, what the hell do you know about the sex lives of your fellow churchgoers, how and why? Maybe they are having mindblowing sex and you’re just missing out.”

Well now you’re the one who is speculating. As I said, when it comes to things I don’t know about I respect the opinions of people that I trust. I don’t trust you. I’ve never met a person who spouts this sexual revolution rubbish that I can trust.

Sure, what you’re saying does cut close to the bone, I will admit that. As I’ve said, it is not an easy life. It is hard to have such strong and challenging convictions yet desiring to participate in a wider society who seem to be being washed out with the tide. But I do have my fair share of female friends and family, and my the deep and respectful friendships I have with them will always be a guard against the terrible attitudes of so many men in our nation.

And you should have picked up by now that I don’t have a problem with coming across as patronizing, just as I do not have a problem with the way you try to patronise me. Gosh, the sooner people quit feeling they have to pull people up for use of that word, the sooner we’ll be able to get on with some real debate.
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August 24, 2006 2:45pm
Ben Wilson

Actually Lucyna, it’s you that needs to go back to those comments, since you are claiming they exist. I wait with bated breath to hear what offended you so. In my memory it’s pretty much what I just said – I gave you no special treatment, and merely rebutted your ridiculous claim to be speaking for all womankind on this issue.
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August 24, 2006 2:51pm
Ben Wilson

No, AJ, we’re *both* speculating. That is my point. You don’t know a damn thing about the sex lives of your friends, and I’m sure that given your attitude, you will never, ever be entrusted to find out.

Spouting sexual revolution stuff? Eh? Where did I do that? Is this yet another invention of yours, along the lines of calling me postmodern?

Have you ever considered that it is you who is washed out with the tide, and the majority of your fellow countrymen are on the shore calling you back and thinking you a fool for going beyond your depth? Are you hoping the Pamela Anderson of christians is going to come save you? I hope you can hold your breath.
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August 24, 2006 2:58pm
A.J.Chesswas

I’d like to know what tide it was that washed me out, because you know I can feel the pull of conservatism all around me every day!

I bet you it’s flippin easy to live according to your values, because people like you have taken over the media, governance, art & music of our country. You are the one swimming, or rather floating, with the tide… And it’s not a tide of human consciousness, it’s a tide of commercial exploitation and hegemony and you have been conned…

Lets catch up when you’re 80 and look back on our lives, when you’ve been abandoned by your three wives and 1 kid in a retirement home and all you’ve got to remember about life was what you consumed and who you took the piss out of…
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August 24, 2006 3:27pm
Graham Miller

Lets catch up when you’re 80 and look back on our lives, when you’ve been abandoned by your three wives and 1 kid in a retirement home and all you’ve got to remember about life was what you consumed and who you took the piss out of…

Yes, AJ, let’s catch up with you’re 80, and still a virgin in search of his Prima Donna, and all you’ve got to remember about life is what’s written in the Bible. Get the drift? You’re a practising Christian? Man, you sure judge others harshly.
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August 24, 2006 3:31pm
Danyl Mclauchlan

Lets catch up when you’re 80 and look back on our lives, when you’ve been abandoned by your three wives and 1 kid in a retirement home and all you’ve got to remember about life was what you consumed and who you took the piss out of…

A.J.Chesswas

Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pissing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life… But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin’ else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you’ve got heroin?

Renton
Trainspotting
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August 24, 2006 3:35pm
weizguy

I can’t see why you would be offended at someone insisting they are right and doing so in order to help you. The local JWs have taken a liking to me, they do it whenever they come around, but I don’t find it offensive…

Guess what – I find people telling me that i’ll suffer eternal hellfire and damnation because I chose not to believe in their personal imaginary friend offensive. You find Boobs in public offensive. Guess what – that’s where our MORALS differ, and why we had this debate at all.

Oh, and just to look at the value of your advice – My parents have been married longer than yours, but I had no concept of relationships until I had them. Guess what, i’m still learning. Come back to me when you know what you’re talking about.

Lucyna

You are joking right? Talking about “hate speech” makes a person gay? Guess by that premise, i’m gay too. I’m sure we can find you some more straws to clutch at…
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August 24, 2006 4:02pm
A.J.Chesswas

“Guess what – I find people telling me that i’ll suffer eternal hellfire and damnation because I chose not to believe in their personal imaginary friend offensive”

I would find that offensive too.
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August 24, 2006 4:11pm
Ben Wilson

Well, AJ, I hope you find your warm golden current of conservatism and it washes you to a shore that you feel more welcome at. I can think of plenty of places where breast exposure meets with harsh penalties, and you’ll be quite close to the home of your messiah too. You might find it’s not that good, but you can’t say we didn’t warn you. I’m sure there’s a whole world of covered up, not particularly pretty women with the personality of an angel (until you’re locked in) for you to get rorted by.

As for meeting up when we’re 80, is that your way of saying you’ve got nothing further to say? I think when I’m 80 I won’t remember you at all, or care one little fig for whatever lifetime of suffering you inflicted on yourself.
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August 24, 2006 4:16pm
weizguy

I would find that offensive too

Most Proselytisers seem to think that is passes as helping people…

Do you get the feeling you’re a little out of touch?
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August 24, 2006 4:24pm
Lucyna

Weizguy, I never said that uttering the phrase “hate speech” makes a person gay. What is it with people on this site? However, apparently if you were to say “There is no god but allah” three times, that would make you a Muslim.

If you were to go back to DIM’s comment that started all of this, you would get the hyprocrisy (ie gay man delighting in lecturing virgin christian man, to not lecture married men on women and sex). DIM asserts he is not gay, but wanted to know why I suspected he was. So I indulged him. Lots of little things that add up to nothing, if DIM (aka Danyl) is to be believed.

Now, that is *it* for me on this thread.
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August 24, 2006 4:48pm
err..

I’d just like to thank Lucyna for the best laugh I’ve had all week, that was fucking hilarious woman(*)!

I’ve seen some really dumb things written in my time but your masterpiece “reasons Danyl must be gay” possibly takes the biscuit. Congratulations, you are now in the running for the dumbest human being that has ever learned to operate a computer keyboard. Don’t you have some lice to pick out of your hair or something?

(*) I use the term in its loosest possible form.
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August 24, 2006 5:02pm
Ben Wilson

Lucyna, aw, there was me waiting with bated breath for you to back up your umbrage against me with the promised quote from some thread. But it seems you couldn’t find it, huh? Funny, that.
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August 24, 2006 5:02pm
Danyl Mclauchlan

Lucyna:

I have one of those memories where I remember things about people. I find people interesting.

Huh. Someone just mailed me to point out that the thread I linked to above in which Lucyna and I argue about feminism has a post in which I refer to my girlfriend. Pity Lucyna – with her awesome memory for detail – didn’t remember that and chose to construct some elaborate fantasy about my sex life based on my dislike of hate speech and recent trip to Europe (and WHAT the fuck is that about?).

Let’s just have another laugh at Lucynas ‘proof’, because I still can’t believe it:

Lucyna:The fact that you were about holiday in Europe for the winter as well. An expensive trip right in Europe’s peak season. By itself, innocuous, but add everything up . . . it looks pretty damn suspicious.

Classic. What a chump.
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August 24, 2006 5:03pm
A.J.Chesswas

Thanks Ben, I wsh you well with your venereal diseases…

And good luck guys with learning how to talk to women. Allow me to apologise, Lucyna, on behalf of the male sex…
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August 24, 2006 5:16pm
A.J.Chesswas

“Did jesus call women “Sluts” very often?”

His prophets didn’t seem to have a problem with using similar words…

“Wherefore, O HARLOT, hear the word of the LORD:

Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thy filthiness was poured out, and thy nakedness discovered through thy whoredoms with thy lovers, and with all the idols of thy abominations, and by the blood of thy children, which thou didst give unto them;

Behold, therefore I will gather all thy lovers, with whom thou hast taken pleasure, and all them that thou hast loved, with all them that thou hast hated; I will even gather them round about against thee, and will discover thy nakedness unto them, that they may see all thy nakedness.

And I will judge thee, as women that break wedlock and shed blood are judged; and I will give thee blood in fury and jealousy.

And I will also give thee into their hand, and they shall throw down thine eminent place, and shall break down thy high places: they shall strip thee also of thy clothes, and shall take thy fair jewels, and leave thee naked and bare.

They shall also bring up a company against thee, and they shall stone thee with stones, and thrust thee through with their swords.

And they shall burn thine houses with fire, and execute judgments upon thee in the sight of many women: and I will cause thee to cease from playing the harlot, and thou also shalt give no hire any more.

So will I make my fury toward thee to rest, and my jealousy shall depart from thee, and I will be quiet, and will be no more angry.

Because thou hast not remembered the days of thy youth, but hast fretted me in all these things; behold, therefore I also will recompense thy way upon thine head, saith the Lord GOD: and thou shalt not commit this lewdness above all thine abominations.”

– Ezekiel 16:35-43
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August 24, 2006 5:21pm
A.J.Chesswas

woops that comment was meant for the other post…

http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2006/08/hubbard_gets_100000_to_boob_pa.html
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August 24, 2006 5:22pm
Graham Miller

And good luck guys with learning how to talk to women

Sheesh! One hopes that married couples talk – and not just pillow talk. What a pitiful excuse for a religious sermon from AJ…
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August 24, 2006 5:23pm
Ben Wilson

Danyl, you went you Europe? I think I finally agree with Lucyna, you must be a total bender. Ho ho ho.

Who gives a shit if you were gay? Not that you are, but what earthly difference would it make to this debate? Gay people who are not virgins are also qualified to talk about sex, albeit a different kind of sex.

But self professed virgins, who make a real point of it, who stick it in everyone’s face and try to make out it’s virtue rather than bad luck, who elevate it’s moral stature to great heights, who claim to have the drop on everyone else’s relationships despite not having one themself, who seem to know everything about the sex life of even the elderly members of their congregation….well, I think you got the point along with practically everyone else.

Even the rightist crowd who’d usually argue just because it’s someone left of Gengis Khan posting here aren’t backing up his case. Except Lucyna and Redbaiter, who doing it for the grudge value, and stan, who I know nothing about. That’s pretty unusual on this blog, especially on a ‘hot’ thread. Seems like the sweeping tide of conservatism ain’t lined up with the virgins on this one.

And AJ, give it up man – I’m happily married so the chances of VD are slim. That’s just another one of those facts you’d know about sex if you’d ever had it. Good luck with your hand, it’s your friend and you’ll be needing it. I’ve heard a bit of nail polish and lying on it until it goes numb can simulate a hand job from a female, you may want to try it out. Or would that be exploiting your hand? These can be the questions that you lie awake at night thinking about. I’m sure there’s a biblical quote that disallows it somewhere.
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August 24, 2006 5:34pm
err..

“And good luck guys with learning how to talk to women. Allow me to apologise, Lucyna, on behalf of the male sex…”

I don’t think you’ve grasped this yet AJ, but there is no “way to talk to women”. Thinking that talking to women is some kind of specialist activity requiring in-depth training may explain your prolonged virginity. Women are people, there are ways of talking to people. Some of those ways are to be employed in the course of normal conversation with people you like, others are for more intimate occasions, and others still are for when you’re talking to comedically retarded idiots like Lucyna.

It matters not whether she is a woman or not – and let’s face it, on the internet all bets are off – all that matters is that she has walked into a thread and made the most spectacular laughing-stock of herself I think I’ve ever seen on this blog. Which takes some doing.

I’m still amused by your lessons on how to talk to women, however. Good job. What next, AJ the C++ guru?
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August 24, 2006 6:13pm
Graham Miller

Hey DPF: just out of curiousity, is this a record number of postings in a single thread? So much ado about boobs…
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August 24, 2006 7:08pm
David Farrar

Yes I think this is a record, beating out the Destiny Church thread.
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August 24, 2006 8:03pm
ZenTiger

Danyl, Lucyna wasn’t “lying”, she appears to have got the thread mixed up about Gay Marriage and the reference to the Gays going to the Gas Chambers, where you made several comments.

Gay Trojan Horse

Regarding your gayness:

Lucyna said: “Danyl, pardon me if I’m wrong, but I got the very strong impression a little while ago that you were gay. ”

Later she said: “but, anyway, if you say you are not, I’ll believe you.”

I understand your subsequent ridicule when she quoted a few “innocuous” events because she couldn’t remember the exact quote you made to give her that impression, and she tagged on:
“but add everything up . . . it looks pretty damn suspicious.”

It probably would have been a good idea to recap on your earlier point that no doubt contributed to the error, when you said:

“Its becoming abundently clear that AJ needs a girlfriend. A few weeks of mood swings, manipulation, emotional blackmail and hormone induced temper-tantrums will cure you of this ‘all females are sacred’ bullshit real quick.”

I suspect she now realises that comment isn’t an indicator of gayness, nor misogyny. It’s just that you can be rude sometimes.
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August 24, 2006 10:19pm
ZenTiger

Ben, you said: “Unless you are gay, too scared to come out..”

For goodness sake, Ben…getting the impression some-one might be gay…try to remember if AJ has said anything at anytime that might counter that impression..
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August 24, 2006 10:26pm
ZenTiger

Ben, you said: “Unless you are gay, too scared to come out..”

For goodness sake, Ben…getting the impression some-one might be gay…try to remember if AJ has said anything at anytime that might counter that impression..
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August 24, 2006 10:29pm
A.J.Chesswas

OK well this seems to be going nowhere now. Must say, although it was quite a stressful episode, I have thoroughly enjoyed the debate. Moral absolutists and moral relativists don’t get these sorts of opportunities to confront each other every day, it was good to stretch the metaphorical legs and see what the flexing of our philosophical muscles could possibly achieve.

It seems to me there are two main divergences in our thought that prevent us from common ground; one concerning autonomy and the nature/hierarchy of human relationships, and the other concerning our understanding of women and reproductive ethics.

AUTONOMY

The liberals believe every person has equal potential for self-determination, and their ability to judge between good actions and bad actions. They believe that even if someone will consent to a deed that will harm them, it is more moral to refrain from intervention rather than discouraging that activity. They believe that all human beings learn from consequences, and that in allowing a person that freedom you help them to grow in character.

Most important, liberals believe that above all else the retention of one’s autonomy is most crucial to one’s experience of personal dignity. This is the sort of thing that sees the unemployed sitting around as bums rather than being on work-for-the-dole schemes.

I, on the other hand, believe the following:

*Not all human beings are equal in intellect, judgment and moral character.

*Those of us who are stronger should act to protect the weaker from exploitation and degradation, even where it appears to involve willing consent.

*Human beings do not necessarily learn from their mistakes, and there are many mistakes with life-long consequences that we should do what we can to protect people from.

WOMEN & REPRODUCTIVE ETHICS

We also differ in our experience of women, and our ethics with regards to reproduction. I recognise among the women I know a definite need for a secure and committed context within which to share their sexuality, and engage in the act of reproduction.

I understand this need, because I too value the privacy of my body and my personality, and recognise that by preserving it for my spouse I will be able to offer her something of myself that nobody else knows. Such a pact and an understanding will speak to her of the strength and meaning of that marital commitment.

I also understand that sexual intercourse often produces children. I understand the link between life being sacred and sex being sacred. I understand the concern of a woman not to risk her body or her child by engaging in sex without the context of a secure and committed sexual relationship. I understand that the termination of the life of a foetus is not preferable to sexual constraint outside of marriage.

The liberals, on the other hand, prioritise the satisfaction of their sexual fantasies (wouldn’t dare to try and imagine what those may be) over the emotional and mental stability of a woman they consider only as potential. One would hate to think what their priority might be if they had terrible sex with a woman and then found out she was pregnant.

Anyway, I’ve made these points on a number of occasions now, and I haven’t really seen them addressed adequately. I’m not anticipating anything new, and if they do come up with something new I don’t imagine it would be convincing.

“I am in a position to tell you that one of the main causes of divorce is sexual incompatibility. It’s a public fact. If you don’t want to have sex with your wife any more, then most men can’t see any further reason to have to put up with them.”

I can’t take seriously a guy who argues like this, who sees “sexual compatibility” (whatever that means, I mean what does a virgin have to compare it to?) as more important as any other aspect of the marriage; Who can’t see any other reason for persisting in a marriage. One would wonder if he knows that children aren’t dropped off by stalks… And this was probably the mildest of the liberal commentators…

So I’m going to leave it at that. 400 comments is enough for one post. We’ve broken the record for a post, so yay that must really officially make us cybergeeks…

And this doesn’t mean I’m “giving up” on the debate. Will be keen to debate you guys again sometime, on another topic, on another post. It would only be an improvement on this debate, and this was pretty golden… You never know, we might yet solve one of the greatest philosophical chasms in the postmodern age. Otherwise we’ll just learn a whole lot more about each other’s points of view and it’s worth it just for that…

Over and out…

p.s…. that moral code you were after weizguy:

Is homosexuality immoral? YES
Is BDSM immoral when conducted by two consenting adults? YES
Is suicide immoral? YES
Is MTV immoral? YES
Are string bikinis immoral? DEPENDS ON CONTEXT
Is copying DVDs immoral? IF COPYRIGHTED AND YOU HAVE NO LEGAL RIGHT: YES
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August 24, 2006 11:43pm
george

“A few weeks of mood swings, manipulation, emotional blackmail and hormone induced temper-tantrums will cure you of this ‘all females are sacred’ bullshit real quick.”

For twelve weeks of the year I could cheerfully walk out on my nearest and dearest. I have observed when the lunar tide starts to make among a group of them the total behaviour change. Hell-week would be an apt description for the irrational and destructive comments and behaviour. A week later and they are all being nice nice. Misogony? Naah just brassed off at the repetitive behaviour. In fact very very bored with it. Its like alcoholic behaviour, great for a while then a destructive binge followed by a contrite period, Im sorry, im an alcoholic,its a disease, followed by a binge followed by ….rinse and repeat

Shock therapy is out, giving them the credit card is an own goal of Chamberlain proportions,
I think I will do what I always do, keep my head down unless it gets right out of hand and try and become scarce.
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August 24, 2006 11:53pm
K1

AJ: “I, on the other hand, believe the following:
*Not all human beings are equal in intellect, judgment and moral character.
*Those of us who are stronger should act to protect the weaker… even where it appears to involve willing consent.

And finally, there is the rotten core of this nasty little man’s worldview. How repulsive. Tell you what, AJ, if you represent THE moral code, I’ll choose my “immorality” any day, and take my chances with your invisible friend later on.

And BTW, isn’t pride a deadly sin in your worldview? “Judge not, that ye be not judged” and all that?
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August 25, 2006 8:31am
ZenTiger

K1, there are several ways of interpreting AJ’s statement. The way I read it, a passerby stepping in to take a child away from a lolly-giving dirty old man, even though the child appears to be consenting willingly to going for a nice ride in a car…would be a case.

None of your business perhaps? Not responsible for whatever comes next? I think you are being very presumptuous in calling AJ a “nasty little man” for expressing that kind of sentiment.

Just because certain attitudes might have an element of danger in “going too far” doesn’t mean you need to assume they have gone too far.

After all, that has been the counter-argument here – that naked breasts to sell an erotica show in a public place is not going too far, although full on hard core sex on a float might cross the line. At least in 2006.
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August 25, 2006 9:30am
Ben Wilson

Zen, the piece of me you quote is clearly hypothetical. I make no guesses as to AJ’s gayness, just float it as a possibility for his wierd prolonged virginity. It’s not uncommon for gay people to be a bit turned off by straight sex, although gay sex may not have occurred to them, or they repress it strongly.

And K1 is clearly talking about adults. Children can’t consent. Not legally, anyway.
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August 25, 2006 10:07am

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