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October 14, 2007 4:08pm by David Farrar

Clark arrested for burglary of John Key house

The details are in the Sunday Star-Times.

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Comments (92)

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Inventory2

Yes, but they got the wrong Clark!
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October 14, 2007 4:09pm
hinamanu

very controversial news heading

I can see Helens head shaking slowly over her breakfast coffee
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October 14, 2007 4:23pm
Frank.

What about Brash’s stolen emails? No arrests! No Key suspects? – No leads either – the perfect crime? Clark must have slipped up in the Key case?
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October 14, 2007 4:28pm
Peak Oil Conspiracy

Clark and “Klark” – does that clarify matters, Inventory?
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October 14, 2007 4:46pm
dad4justice

When I first saw this post I immediately thanked the good Lord for a miracle, as I had thought Helengrad had finally been caught red handed by the keystone cops ? It smelt the same , any chance it could be a long distant cousin ? Never give up Peter , must go toilet time .
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October 14, 2007 4:49pm
Lee C

I just asssumed you had started to take the “Standard’s” approach to blogging.
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October 14, 2007 5:09pm
Peak Oil Conspiracy

Lee:

Shall we test-check that:

The major differentiator between Labour and National has always been that Labour is an inclusive party with fundamental values based on supporting a greater number of people. National on the other hand champions the ideal of the individual, sometimes at the expense of the community, which is why they’re always happy to sell off the assets belonging to all New Zealanders, to a few wealthy New Zealanders.

Of course the problem for National is that, in order to get elected, they need to pretend to support the interests of the majority, which is entirely the point of The Hollow Men. Don Brash deeply-held beliefs were incongruent with what he was saying to the electorate and he ended up looking silly – the ultimate Hollow Man.

DPF is regularly accused (by the usual suspects) of dog-whistling. But this self-serving claptrap from The Standard really takes matters to the next level.
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October 14, 2007 5:12pm
helmet

heh, had me going for a minute. thought all my tinfoil hat dreams had come true at last!
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October 14, 2007 5:44pm
rfhoward

Once it was found an everyday thief had burgled Key’s house the burglar was apprehended. Don Brash who was interviewed on television just a short while ago says he can’t get any action on his stolen emails and is sure the police investigation is being blocked.
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October 14, 2007 5:49pm
tim barclay

Good poll for National on TVOne but Labour vould still take Gold as a silver and a bronze under MMP wins.

[DPF: Actually on that poll National could govern alone]
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October 14, 2007 5:52pm
hinamanu

and who is the blocked investigation helping,,

Nicky Hager ??

I don’t think so

If Brash being the high profile person he is can’t get help exposing the culprits he’s got to be feeling very very lonely.

The man’s been around a few moons and has no contacts,,

whats that about?
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October 14, 2007 5:53pm
Lee C

POC – I agree. I thought I’d give it a try, and posted alternative views. Thought I was entering into a spirit of debate. Thought that I would make sure my political and moral compass were in good repair.

It was like wading through treacle; examples included:
Key should apologise for his ‘the war is over’ remark (actually, not so much that, but his subsequent explaination which was labelled ‘spin’ ok fine. That’s a moral outrage issue –
A petition with the aim of peruading Key to donate one week’s earnings (or wages) to ‘the children of Iraq’ as atonement for his refusal to apologise.
An Article called ‘The War is not Over for the Children of Iraq’ and a hatchet job on – John Key.
References to the transcript of Hager’s submission to the select Committee re. The Hollow Men – ok, but then the uncritical use of this to make assumptions about Key’s involvement with the EB – but no proof.
Then A reference to Hager’s testimony as a basis for a ‘I don’t actually know, but I can feel it in my water’ attack on Key’s crebidility and honesty, re guess what – his involvement with the EB. That was a classic, it seemed to imply not only Key, Brash, the EB, but even the Electoral Office were in collusion on that score!
Then today, Key’s responses to not knowing about emails are linked to Winston’s denials, and again, this is used to suggest a ‘don’t know, but we are pretty sure it happened’ attack on – well John Key.

My theory on this:

They are targetting Key (I know, that wasn’t rocket-science)
They are keeping a flame under the EB as a smokescreen to get the shonkily drafted EFB through
Hager has seen a great way to plug his book, and is now a poster-boy for the Left, and loving it
Labour don’t have anything on Key, so ‘The Standard’ is acting as their water-carrier, to spin a smear campaign in the absence of any evidence.

I’ve asked them to show their evidence. They haven’t.

Hager hasn’t either.

So I think they are lying. Their response of course to this would be to accuse me of ‘right-wing’ paranoia. But I think it is they who are paranoid.

I don’t know what standard they are seeking to promote, but it isn’t one I aspire to.

Why didn’t they just call it the ‘We Think John Key is a Bastard’ blog, and have done with it?

anyway, I just got tired of it.
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October 14, 2007 5:59pm
krazykiwi

Lee, i’ve looked at a few threads over at the [low] standard. another kiwiblog commenter suggested that their site is an echo chamber. how true.

it’s a pitiful site filled with spiteful postings directed towards john key, punctuated with the occasional irrelevant post to dilute the muck and make it last longer. good on you for attempting to engage in dialogue. i can see the futility of trying!

an observation I made was that regulars there and here at kiwiblog change their styles quite a bit. their trolls whip up a frenzy here and then retreat to the [low] standard and slag off DPF for having badly behaved posters. 3rd grade sandpit tactics.
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October 14, 2007 6:21pm
Sam Dixon

Pretty funny how his name is John Clark, combining both their names.

Nice and childish though, DPF.
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October 14, 2007 6:21pm
Inventory2

Lee C – I know how you feel – after your “farewell” post, I have accused them of being one-trick ponies, being obsessed with Key and the EB. They also didn’t take too kindly to my suggestion that Tane etc had bragged about being able to work out IP addresses
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October 14, 2007 6:28pm
Fairfacts Media

By the way, isn’t it wonderful how Liarbour is slumping in the polls again.
Though TVNZ would make you think things were steady.
Far from Key and National making ‘gaffes’ I would say the polls reflect Liarbour’s hypocracy being exposed on issues as diverse as ‘privatisation’ and ‘Iraq.’
And on a day when councils have tended to swing rightwards, with Banksie mayor-elect of Auckland, the new poll certainly rubs salt into the wounds of Dear Leader.
http://www.nominister.blogspot.com/
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October 14, 2007 6:37pm
Peak Oil Conspiracy

Sam Dixon:

Pretty funny how his name is John Clark, combining both their names.
Nice and childish though, DPF.

That’s rich coming from you, Sam. Sure you’re not childish too? You’ve directed some fairly petty comments at DPF in the past week alone – which he’s demonished in fairly short order.
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October 14, 2007 6:59pm
Peak Oil Conspiracy

Make that “demolished”
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October 14, 2007 7:00pm
Inventory2

POC – I think Sam should stick to The Standard where he and his union mates can prattle on about Key/Brash/EB conspiracy theories to their hearts’ content! That may also lead to a better “standard” of debate on Kiwiblog, if you’ll pardon the awful pun!
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October 14, 2007 7:10pm
roger nome

“Pretty funny how his name is John Clark, combining both their names.
Nice and childish though, DPF.”

I guess it had to happen. What better opportunity to set kiwiblog’s rabid right wing hearts a flutter?
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October 14, 2007 7:16pm
Peak Oil Conspiracy

Inventory:

Absolutely agree.

But Sonic (who claims to have no association with The Standard – and I have no reason to think otherwise) is another kettle of (smelly) fish. Sonic whinged and whined about DPF not posting on National’s foreign affairs policy. Even hijacked multiple threads to that effect. What happens: DPF posts on that subject, and Sonic has nothing to say. I called him on it at the time, only to have Phillip John/Roger Nome suggest I was carrying out a petty point-scoring exercise. Oh, the irony.
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October 14, 2007 7:18pm
roger nome

Saw this over at another blog. Thought it was worth quoting

“You’ll note Farrar’s head for this story. Isn’t it oh so dry? Unfortunately his resident muppets feel the need to point the joke out and then point it out again, and again, and again… imagine being stuck in a room with them. (someone should do Kiwiblog the theme ride, no actually they shouldn’t – it’d be something akin to being smeared in excrement and thrown into a pit full of retarded starved chimps. And who’d pay good money for that?”
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October 14, 2007 7:18pm
Inventory2

I’ve just posted a response to Sam at the standard – he’s once again trying to make the Colmar Brunton poll result tonight a bit more palatable, but I’m not having any of it!!

“Sam Dixon
Oct 14th, 2007 at 7:52 pm
I was just looking at the Colmar Brunton poll report on One News. As anyone who follows the polls knows, CB always leans right, about 5% compared to other polls but what I found odd was One News saying “The trend shows National is maintaining a clear and consistent lead”. The previous CB poll was in May.
Comparision

Party Oct May
National 49% 56%
Labour 37% 31%
Green 6% 6%
The Maori Party 3% 3%
NZ First 2% 3%
United Future NZ 1% 1%

Seems like a 6% shift to Labour since the last poll, hardly a consistant lead.”

“Inventory2
Oct 14th, 2007 at 8:20 pm
Nice try Sam – the last Colmar Brunton poll from TVNZ was actually in September (16th to be exact) and these were the results; National 49%; Labour 39%; Greens 5%; NZ First/Maori Party 3%. Tonight’s result National 49% (no change, after a supposedly “shit” month; Labour 37% (down 2, after supposedly having battered Key and National from here to Kingdom come); Greens 6% (up 1); Maori Party 3% (no change); NZ First 2% (down 1, and in danger of vanishing!)

Oh, you didn’t mention preferred PM: Clark 33% (no change); Key 33% (up 2 – again, after a supposedly “shit” month!)

Sam, if you’re going to quote statistics, please make sure you are using the right ones – we wouldn’t want anyone to think you were trying to distort opinion now, would we. Thought not (with apologies to sonic)!”

Gottim yes! Piss off, you’re out!! (The Twelth Man)
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October 14, 2007 7:24pm
krazykiwi

“… and who would pay good money for that?”

David Benson Pope?
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October 14, 2007 7:25pm
Peak Oil Conspiracy

Phillip John – sorry to disappoint you but it wasn’t really worth quoting.
Are these the same people who do the “Labour good, National bad” mantra over and over? How dry is that?
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October 14, 2007 7:25pm
Inventory2

roger nome said “Saw this over at another blog. Thought it was worth quoting”

No which blog would that be roger? The Average?
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October 14, 2007 7:26pm
roger nome

Awww sorry fellas – I feel like I’m in the song that’s being played over at whoarfm at the moment.

http://www.listenlive.net.nz/listen/Whoar/index.php
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October 14, 2007 7:28pm
Peak Oil Conspiracy

Helen Clark to Labour Party Congress:

I want Labour in Government to usher in a new era of political accountability and responsibility.

Might it be too much to imagine The Standard instructing its dog-whistling chums:

We want Labour in Government to be supported by new (low) standards of blog commentary.

And why not? I’ve seen plenty of references from Tane et al to “reclaiming” the blogosphere (which, as Redbaiter might point out, is a further reference to socialists wanting control).
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October 14, 2007 7:41pm
krazykiwi

POC, the new era of political accountability and responsibility was intended to be one of less on both accounts. Helen appears to have suceeded.
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October 14, 2007 7:45pm
morris

This headline will get the page per views up dpf. Nice strategy. Next stop – entertainment news, that will really bring the numbers up and then you might get an ad or two.
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October 14, 2007 8:26pm
Sam Dixon

Inv 2- that you feel you need to post here your replies to my post on other blogs is a bit sad.
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October 14, 2007 8:34pm
Chicken Little

My, my, there’s some bitchy little people out there.

Pretty funny all the back patting that goes on at the Standard and blogblog.

PJ/Nome is sycophantic over there too.

I’ll give them 2 months tops.

BORING, boys you need to up your game if you want to compete with Sir David.

He’s the top dog and your yapping is just background noise at the moment.
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October 14, 2007 8:36pm
London calling

I have registered just to say that I thought that was the shittiest headline ever. A very cruel joke on your readers, utilising the authority of your blog. It only took two minutes to find out the truth, but it was enough to cause a reaction. Congratulations on pissing off a long time and loyal reader with a clever play on words…

Just waiting for D4J et al to accuse me of overreacting…..

[DPF: Sorry if upset you Amy, but I found the humour value too tempting. And it was technically true!]
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October 14, 2007 8:46pm
burt

Lee C.

I just asssumed you had started to take the “Standard’s” approach to blogging.

Come back, I’m all alone winding them up about the EFB.

It’s a joke over there isn’t it. I thought the rampant partisan folk were bad over here…. They hate me – they are telling me to take my Ritalin. I’m being treated like sonic is treated here !
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October 14, 2007 9:07pm
roger nome

CL – there has been a palpable balance of power shift in the NZ political blogsphere from right to left over the last couple of months.

DPF realises this, and he’s been caught out several times in the last couple of weeks making uncharacteristically erratic outbursts aimed at several of the more moderate commentators.

Aside from this there’s a lot of frantic and desperate attacks on other left wing blogs.

This excerpt from Bill Ralston’s herald column sums it up quite nicely/

“f the blog authors are tough in their analysis, the hundreds of comments they get can be even more rabid. In the columns, on the blogs, on talkback and in the letters to the editor pages of the major papers, the tide of opinion has turned rabidly against National.

Some of this has been helped by Labour activists who always outgun National supporters when rallying for a fight online and in feedback to the traditional media.

“They’re much better at this than us,” admits one of John Key’s advisers, who points to a guerrilla campaign waged by Labour supporters, who have been plastering anti-National stickers around the capital.

But, frankly, National has only itself to blame. I wonder if Bill English is not out to deliberately lose the next election in the forlorn hope of one day getting his old job back as leader. What possessed him to start publicly musing about privatisation?

National’s own focus group research would tell them “privatisation” is a dirty word for voters, right up there with “plutonium”.”
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October 14, 2007 9:07pm
roger nome

oh and here’s the link …

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10468322&pnum=0
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October 14, 2007 9:08pm
burt

amk had been giving them some grief about not having a ‘disclosure’ on their blog of their affiliation or funding and I posted this.

http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=476#comment-1147

They just don’t like me.
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October 14, 2007 9:08pm
dad4justice

Shall I get the panzers fueled up burt and divert the heavy traffic to the sub standard as sonic just got run over by a Tiger Tank ?
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October 14, 2007 9:09pm
Peak Oil Conspiracy

Phillip John/Roger Nome:

Are you advocating The Standard as a constructive part of the blogosphere? I have to say – after Tane’s link-whoring all week – I took a look. I was pretty disappointed.
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October 14, 2007 9:12pm
Peak Oil Conspiracy

Burt:

I’ve just held my nose and read through the thread you referenced. I particularly like this quote of yours:

The Standard, lowering the standard, while lowering the standard of lower the standard.

Priceless!
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October 14, 2007 9:18pm
roger nome

“Are you advocating The Standard as a constructive part of the blogosphere?”

Certainly they’re at least as constructive as kiwiblog – DPF just has a bit more experience with PR spin (weasel words) – the content and analysis level of the is at least as good as DPF’s though (IMHO).
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October 14, 2007 9:24pm
roger nome

“I’ve just held my nose and read through the thread you referenced.”

Reminds me of a comment you made about my blog. BTW did you give up on our discussion about Collective Bargaining coverage and Average working hours? (i.e. de-unionisation leads to longer working hours). If not I would be happy to continue it over at my blog.
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October 14, 2007 9:27pm
dad4justice

There is only fucking weasel here and that is you rogered rabbit !!
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October 14, 2007 9:27pm
PaulL

Great. With an article like that, of course DPF posted as he did. How could he not – it was a sitter. And it was kind of funny – not belly laugh funny, but kind of funny. And then the bleaters get on and complain about it. Get over yourselves.
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October 14, 2007 9:29pm
Chicken Little

PJ/Nome – Really mate, I think your grasp of reality is pretty shaky.

How many people that read this blog(or any other) do you think have their minds changed from the political leanings they had before they arrived?. Really?

Play it up all you want pal, The Standard and, your favourite, blogblog have a long way to go to get up to the level that DPF has created here in the last few years. I’ve seen far better trolls than you and your mates come and go here with nay a ripple, so don’t give me any of that ‘power shift’ crap.
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October 14, 2007 9:30pm
burt

roger nome

Did you read the Sunday Star Times today ? Front page, bottom left. Duvet days. Flexible arrangements, about being a good employer perhaps…
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October 14, 2007 9:31pm
ahod

Oh haha… If this isn’t a ploy to grab the attentions of those among us who don’t read the paper online or on paper, or watch TV, or listen to radio- then I don’t know what it is.
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October 14, 2007 9:38pm
side show bob

Roger if the standard is your cup of tea go for it but how many from the right are aloud to post.Shit is there something in your head that lets your point of view to be told to everyone but you can not afford the same favours to those you oppose atleast those on the right afford you that right.
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October 14, 2007 9:42pm
burt

ahod

Oh haha… If this isn’t a ploy to grab the attentions of those among us who don’t read the paper online or on paper, or watch TV, or listen to radio- then I don’t know what it is.

No. It was a question for roger, if he said no, don’t have a paper I would summarise it for him. I’m sure there would be some other people in here to keep me honest so I wouldn’t slant it in translation. That would just waste time in debate as people argued because I was being a partisan twat trying to make a point that wasn’t there.
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October 14, 2007 9:45pm
Lee C

Another thing – the sense of humour here in kiwiblog is much better. I gave ’em comedy gold when I’d had too much to drink last night:

“Robinson, I think you prefer to think I’m a woman you twisted f**K. This is from a man who on his last job application listed ‘Going into chatrooms masquerading as a lesbian’ under the section labelled ‘Hobbies’. Needless to say he didn’t get that job with the Human RIghts Commission…

PS Right brain people also belive that ‘gullible’ had to be withdrawn from the latest OED, because the term might offend the citizens of Gullston, Pennsylvania.

And of course that the EFB is a giant leap forward for democracy….”

And I got nothing back.

now that would never happen here! Am I right Gnome?

ps. I am sooo proud of that insult I just had to use any pretext to repeat it.
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October 14, 2007 9:45pm
Lee C

going on kiwiblog means never having to be afraid to say ‘sorry’.

sorry.
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October 14, 2007 9:46pm
burt

POC

I must fess up. “The Standard, lowering the standard, while lowering the standard of lower the standard.”

Was actually a typo, it went through my head as…

The Standard, lowering the standard, while lowering the standard of lowering the standard.

Doooh. That and this site need a ‘preview’ !
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October 14, 2007 9:51pm
krazykiwi

POC – either way it’s excellent. someone else called it The Average which i quite liked
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October 14, 2007 9:55pm
krazykiwi

POC – either way it’s excellent. someone else called it The Average which i quite liked

Bring on preview!
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October 14, 2007 9:56pm
Tane

Hey guys, just wanted to say thanks for all the free advertising – it’s doing wonders for our traffic!

Oh and IV2, fuck off. I’ve never said anything about tracking people’s IP addresses. You know very well The Standard respects the privacy of its commenters. In fact, the only person who’s talked about revealing IP addresses is your mate Farrar. Or is it okay when he does it?
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October 14, 2007 10:00pm
pdq

Yeah, but look at what some poor guy was subjected to in the cess pit you call The Standard”:

http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=467#comments
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October 14, 2007 10:07pm
roger nome

“Roger if the standard is your cup of tea go for it but how many from the right are aloud to post.”

Everyone as far as I’m aware – that’s so long as you can manage passing the anti-spam test (not so easy for many on the right I understand 🙂

“How many people that read this blog(or any other) do you think have their minds changed from the political leanings they had before they arrived?. Really?”

How the hell do I know. All I know is that the right are clearly being outgunned in the NZ blogsphere, and I’m bloody loving it!

“POC – either way it’s excellent. someone else called it The Average which i quite liked”

Oh common – i’ve seen 12 year olds come up with wittier insults than that.
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October 14, 2007 10:11pm
Tane

pdq, I’m not quite sure what you’re on about.
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October 14, 2007 10:12pm
roger nome

“Yeah, but look at what some poor guy was subjected to in the cess pit you call The Standard”:”

OMFG – What are you going on about? The level of abuse at the standard is childs play compared to this place. I mean where is the left’s equivalent of redbaiter, D4J, Adolf, Whaleoil and other nasties? Simple – they just don’t exist.

[DPF: Guys go debate The Standard at The Standard. This post was a joke about a burglar’s surname. How the heck it now has 58 comments I don’t know]
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October 14, 2007 10:13pm
Lee C

They can’t exist in the pc-world of the left. It’s all been orthodoxied out of them. All that’s left is rather hamfisted insults which they think passes for political satire.

Imagine a world where it not allowed to make fun of Gnome, because he is old, or fat, or has alzheimers. That’s what we are fighting.

To the barricades!
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October 14, 2007 10:18pm
Peak Oil Conspiracy

Phillip John/Roger Nome:

I’ve said it before – and I’ll say it again.

I read blogs because I like to see different points of view. It’s about having one’s own point of view challenged. And, for quite some time, Kiwiblog has provided that forum. Unfortunately in more recent times it’s been hijacked by trolls – both left and right – and it’s caused DPF to introduce moderation. How effective that will be is anyone’s guess.

But The Standard, by comparison, is quite a gutterall mess. I see Burt tried to have a debate with Tane and Robinsod and got nowhere. Burt knows his political persuasion; Tane and Robinsod know theirs. Are they left-wing nasties? Time will tell.

I have a high opinion of Burt as he plays the ball, not the man, and actually debates issues without being offensive. Not what I’ve seen from The Standard so far.
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October 14, 2007 10:20pm
roger nome

POC – did you not read DPF’s comment at the bottom of my last post?
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October 14, 2007 10:23pm
burt

If Tane can give it then Tane needs to be able to take it. 🙂
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October 14, 2007 10:24pm
Tane

Burt, if you’re talking about that thread you may have noticed I’ve been off having a life this weekend – it’s been lovely weather mate. I’m happy to debate the education system or whatever with you any time. But as DPF said, he’d rather not give us any more free advertising by continuing this discussion thread here.
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October 14, 2007 10:28pm
Lee C

DPF we can’t go to the other blog it’s rubbish. Don’t be angry with us. I give it a month before it goes tumbleweed.
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October 14, 2007 10:28pm
Peak Oil Conspiracy

Phillip John/Roger Nome:

You posted at 10.13. I posted at 10.20.

I’m guessing that DPF’s tag-on appeared between 10.13 and 10.20 (but certainly I didn’t notice it until after I’d posted). How terribly remiss of me.
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October 14, 2007 10:29pm
roger nome

How convenient POC 🙂
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October 14, 2007 10:33pm
roger nome

“They can’t exist in the pc-world of the left. It’s all been orthodoxied out of them. All that’s left is rather hamfisted insults which they think passes for political satire.”

So you’re saying that in a completely leftist world people like redbaiter and D4J wouldn’t exist? Surely this can’t be a bad thing?
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October 14, 2007 10:36pm
tim barclay

Good headline. Keep ramming out down the throat of the Labour Party it is just the sort of spin they think is soo funny.
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October 14, 2007 11:09pm
Pascal

“They’re much better at this than us,” admits one of John Key’s advisers, who points to a guerrilla campaign waged by Labour supporters, who have been plastering anti-National stickers around the capital.

Interesting. I wonder if the Labour party will be declaring that type of activity on their electioneering spending next year. I suspect as it’s done by supporters not. But ho hum, such double standards is part of the Labour way of life.
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October 15, 2007 5:58am
Tane

Pascal, having done a bit of postering myself during my misspent youth (mostly for bands, but the odd political one too) I can assure you the cost of a poster run is only around $10-20 all up. But don’t let that stop you from being an apologist for a violent, abusive sect.
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October 15, 2007 8:18am
Pascal

Tane, incorrect and fail, all in one sentence. I am an apologist for a free democracy. But don’t let illogical religious persecution stop you from scoring political points.
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October 15, 2007 8:20am
Pascal

But surely the principle applies here Tane – not the amount of money invested. Of course it would. If people like you and the Labour party had principles that is.
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October 15, 2007 8:21am
Tane

Well Pascal, feel free to bring it up and make an issue out of it. Hell, put out a press release: left-wing activists spend $15 on poster campaign. But I think you’ll find there’s a huge difference between putting up a few posters and engaging in a $1.5m smear campaign.
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October 15, 2007 8:37am
Pascal

As I suspected, Tane. As I suspected. You are still carrying on with the lies in a vain attempt to reframe the debate. Kind of like the Standard tried to shift the story from your Iraq stuff up to Don Brash forgetting about an email …

Pathetic spin.

If you wanted to look at illegal campaigns, you should in all honesty look at the political party that has, by your admission,

(a) Acted in covert campagins across the capital
(b) Spread smear posters
(c) Do we even need to go into retrospective legislation, etc.?

See, the beauty of principle is that it’s not for sale. Price is not an object when you stick to your principles. I guess I can’t convince you of that.
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October 15, 2007 8:42am
Tane

Pascal, I suspect we’ll have to agree to disagree on this one. You’re assuming there’s something wrong and illegal about left-wing activists putting up posters, and you’re also assuming a level of coordination and party direction that neither you or I have any evidence of.

But there is a key difference between the two, and it’s precisely this that the EFB is aimed at: groups should not be able to unduly influence elections because of their wealth. If you don’t understand this crucial distinction then there’s not a lot of point in arguing about it.
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October 15, 2007 8:53am
Pascal

You’re ignoring the capital and wealth in labour, Tane. But that’s okay, I’ll forgive you that.
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October 15, 2007 8:57am
Tane

It’s called political activism Pascal. Having supporters who’re willing to go out and do the political legwork is the very essence of democracy. Relying on expensive third party campaigns is the essence of plutocracy.
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October 15, 2007 9:00am
Pascal

Ah Tane my dear boy, that is where you make your mistake. You are once more asserting that the Brethren supports National, when their actual stance is to oppose Labour / Greens.

The Brethren’s biggest mistake was daring to actually criticize you guys and for that this religious group has been persecuted to all ends of the earth. Depraved, really.

But hey – carry on with the Labour Good / National Bad line. It’s proved popular so far.
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October 15, 2007 9:04am
Tane

You are once more asserting that the Brethren supports National

Pascal, they clearly coordinated their campaign with the National Party with the intention of electing a National-led government. There’s even a publicly available email trail to prove it. What more do you need?
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October 15, 2007 9:14am
Pascal

Tane, they coordinated so as to not inadvertently force a party into an overspend.

Contrast that with a party that knowingly and willingly breached the electoral spending cap.

Then the National Party discussed this amongst themselves, to ensure that a THIRD PARTY CAMPAIGN was not accidentally counted against their expenditure.

All this shows me is two groups ensuring that they don’t trod on one-another’s toes.

It does not point at collusion. Or anything illegal. In fact, it seems to me that those two groups acted with more integrity and with a greater aim at legality in terms of our ELECTORAL LAW than the party that DELIBERATELY breached the Electoral Spending Cap and then introduced RETROSPECTIVE LEGISLATION to validate their overspend.

But keep up with your allegations and your Labour Good / National Bad line. You’re being made to look the fool the more you keep up with it.
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October 15, 2007 9:18am
Pascal

For example, if during the Election spending time frame I was going to be spending anything upwards of $10K attacking Labour’s retrospective legislation, their defense of Taito Philip Field, their bungle on Kyoto, their bungle with the budget, then I would be writing to:

(a) National
(b) ACT
(c) The Greens
(d) The Electoral Commission

to inform them of this spend and to ensure that my spending did not affect the other parties expenditure. As it should not in a country that allows for it’s citizens to comment on political scenarios.

Political activism, I believe you called it. Now, might I suggest that you take the time to read this:

http://publicaddress.net/system/topic,649,speaker_from_corruption_guard_our_state.sm?p=25221#post25221

What did the Police find in that case? Yes Tane. Thank you Tane.
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October 15, 2007 9:21am
Tane

Pascal, the Brethren and National coordinated their key messages quite clearly to ensure they had the same message “change the government” but in a way that didn’t count against National’s cap. It’s quite clear when you read the emails that National knew exactly what was going on and used it to full advantage.
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October 15, 2007 9:24am
Pascal

“Change the government” is hardly a message that shows collusion, now is it? There was a number of political parties that was trying to push that message. Along with the whole “Pick me! Pick me!” message.

ACT had that idea. I can bet you that quite a few of them wanted to be in government.

The fact of the matter is you don’t have anything but a blatant assumption.

Even the police found no case for wrongdoing.

Unlike of course Labour Party ignoring their overspend on the election 😉 Keep spinning though, you’re gorgeous all intertwined in lies as you are.
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October 15, 2007 9:30am
Tane

I think you’ll find the “change the government” line was designed with the colours and font to link to National’s key message. You’ll also remember the draft Brethren pamphlets that actually featured a picture of Don Brash. So don’t try to tell me they weren’t directly intended to elect National or that Don Brash and John Key didn’t know exactly what was going on.
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October 15, 2007 9:36am
Pascal

Then post a picture of those pamphlets Tane.

All I am seeing is a religious group, advocating a change in government, being persecuted by the government and it’s supporters in power for daring to criticize them.

You guys are all class.
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October 15, 2007 9:51am
Nick C

Man, i would like to read Helen Clark’s inbox, lets say around about the time Labour was taking nearly $1mil from the taxpayer and signing it off as parlimentary spending. I could write a damn good book and make a lot of money with e-mails like that. Such a shame that there are no right wingers who would sink low enough to hack peoples computers (not counting Nixon).

Tane even if we accept every assersion that you are making, whats wrong with what happened between national and the EB? They used there own money and broke no laws. Unlike Labour who stole nearly $1mil and broke the law, by using the money for blatant advertising.
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October 15, 2007 10:00am
roger nome

“Ah Tane my dear boy, that is where you make your mistake. You are once more asserting that the Brethren supports National, when their actual stance is to oppose Labour / Greens.”

Why then did the pamphlets have two blue ticks at the bottom of them that looked exactly the same as National were using on their promotional material?
The idea that those pamphlets weren’t aimed at getting National in government is laughable.
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October 15, 2007 1:27pm
Lee C

And back we go round again….

Face it, all they have left with which to stand an outside chance of re-election is to re-run the Brash/EB link and then use that to get the EFB through.

If you had one shot at political survival, you’d hang on to it for dear life, too.
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October 15, 2007 2:22pm
roger nome

So you’re retreating now LeeC? Nice to see that you can admit when you’re wrong though. Well done.
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October 15, 2007 2:26pm
Lee C

like, whatever.
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October 15, 2007 2:51pm

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