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December 1, 2007 4:20pm by David Farrar

Auckland march well attended

Have heard there were around six thousand on the Auckland march. Excellent and well done.

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Electoral Act

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Initial Reports on Auckland March
March on Sunday at 2 pm
The Auckland EFA protest

Comments (203)

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Grant

LOL. Doesn’t take much to offend and disgust you then does it? Get a life.
G
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December 1, 2007 9:34pm
hinamanu

Its called trolling and no one likes them
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December 1, 2007 9:34pm
JJ

I wonder if they’re socialists?

O.k Grant, deep breath. Every first world country is run on an infrastructure that has every hallmark of socialist policy. Ya know those roads ya drive on, socialism paid for them.

O.K so Socialism has been and still is being practised everywhere because its nice to have roads and hospitals and schools.

Also if you don’t understand what happened under the 4th Labour government then I’ll quickly explain. They deregulated at a pace that let our captains of industry at the time show their true stripes, ripping us off millions of dollars of lost infrastructure. John Key wants to revist those 1984 – 1992 concepts of letting the market sort out infrastructure, infrastructure needs considerable community buy in.

I am in business, i’ve worked all my life at nearly every level. This level of criticism at anyone who bucks the dull commercial dogma of old school business is tiring. We need fresh ideas. For instance some of us called for the taming of Telecom years before the general political population let it happen. SMES are our future, not fortress corporations and old school monopolies. The captains of industry will come from I.T, that sweaty Gen Xer and Yer has more progressive ideas for the creation of capital and the promotion of productivity than Bob Jones can throw a mobile phone at.
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December 1, 2007 9:45pm
JJ

It’s called debate. I reposted for Johnboy because he asked me to, so he can’t cop out of answering me.
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December 1, 2007 9:47pm
Peak Oil Conspiracy

JJ and Redbus:

I see there’s been a changing of the guard(en) gnome (apologies to Phillip John) – so you’re defending the EFB on today’s thread.

A couple of comments:

You can defend the philosophy of the EFB all you like. Yes, that’s your right in a democracy. Today 6000 (apparently) publicly opposed the philosophy of the EFB, by marching down Auckland streets. It’s entirely consistent to say: they can oppose the philosophy of the EFB all they like.

Now a challenge for both of you: can you defend the EFB against these specific accusations (the burden of defence rests upon you, as you’re advocating a change in the law):

(1) The EFB covers, amongst other things, third party campaign spends. Even if we accept that regulation of third party campaign spends is appropriate, without worrying about the finer detail, do you think that all thid parties should be regulated? No? Some appropriate carve-outs for, say, the third estate? Yes? But what about organisations that are closely aligned to certain political parties, such as the EPMU? Should it be able to “inform” its members (and likewise encourage them to “inform” non-members) during the election period (redefined as from 1 January in election year)?

(2) Would you like to win a year’s subscription to the New Zealand Law Journal by answering their challenge:

The purpose clause of the Bill includes “the promotion of participation in parliamentary democracy”. This is even greater nonsense that most Act’s purpose clauses. This Journal offers a year’s gratis subscription to any reader who can identify a single provision in the Bill that will promote participation [in parliamentary democracy], as opposed to make it expensive, complicated and risky.

http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/lawjournalonefb.pdf

I believe no one’s claimed the subscription prize. Even if you don’t want to win the prize, you could defend this fundamental premise of the EFB: participation in parliamentary democracy.

So that’s two points for you to chew over.

And here’s a third: even if you get past that hurdle, you have to defend the process by which the EFB is being railroaded into law.
I’ve listed some of the flaws on a previous thread: no consultation before the first reading; breach of privilege, given the unprecedented degree of leakage out of the Select Committee before report-back; report-back with substantive new material on which the public never got to make submissions; report-back with additional flaws that need to be corrected by Supplementary Order Paper; (apparently) continued political horse trading on a piece of law that should have 75% majority parliamentary support (or at least something approaching bipartisan support); and second and third readings to be taken under urgency in one week’s session to meet a self-imposed 1 January 2008 deadline.

Surely you can accept that these are legitimate procedural concerns?

And even if you don’t accept these concerns, do you support railroading it into law given Colin Espiner (not noted as a journalist who takes a National-friendly position on issues) has said:

It sounds like the Electoral Finance Bill has become a complete dog’s breakfast, with amendments flying around the chamber as Labour tries to keep its majority on the legislation and frantically cover all the holes that keep springing up as the bill’s detractors keep finding new leaks.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/blogs/politics/2007/11/29/pleased-to-meet-you-john-key-re-introduces-himself-to-new-zealand/

Finally, one more point: there’s no point arguing (as some have in previous threads) that no one (that’s been the claim, but let’s revise it up to “a small number”) will be affected by the EFB. If that’s the case then why bother passing it into law at all?
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December 1, 2007 9:47pm
Johnboy

JJ At least you are slightly more intelligent than redbus so there is hope for you yet. How old are you. I am 58. I have managed a company (not owned) for 30yrs. I am not one of Trotterskis “Owning Classes”, though I have been paid fairly well and had bonus, vehicle etc. My training was in chemistry not finance law etc. I am a pretty good amateur engineer and designed and built much of the factory I run. Under your Glorious Leader my company is slowly but surely going down the gurgler. We have gone from 30 staff on the factory floor to 6. The owner of my business is one of the most dedicated men I have ever met. He works harder than the rest of us combined to keep the place going because he is caring of all his staff. He should have retired years ago for his own health, he is 68. Dont ever presume to lecture people like me on how the world should be run from your smarmy little socialist perspective. It is not your grotty little leaders that keep this country turning over but people like my boss,me and our staff, all of whom are valued greatly. Little socialist shitbags full of mouth about their own importance do not impress me at all. The best day for me at work recently was when I finally got shot of the scumbag EPMU. The workers finally realised that they would be better buying an extra lotto ticket with the money than giving it to Helens lot.
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December 1, 2007 9:53pm
Swampash

Well done Auckland.
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December 1, 2007 9:57pm
Lindsay Addie

POC,

Your 9.47 post is excellent and makes many good points etc but your trying to get sensible answers and opinions from people whose minds are completely closed about the EFB. They are in denial mode and cannot see and refuse to see that the bill is bad law.

How much more criticism does the bill get before it sinks in to the left what this is actually about? The ignorance of the supporters will be the downfall of the Government and their supporters.
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December 1, 2007 10:00pm
Dazzaman

Actually JJ, Christian capitalism paid for them, the need for roads was so industrious, hardworking individuals who were looking to break the country in so they could turn their land into profits (very admirable goal) and build a country with opportunity for all! These people were driven by the Christian desire for a better world and exercising their God-given dominion over God’s land.

As for hospitals and schools, in every western country the vast majority were also founded by Christian capitalists. The socialists have only gradually captured these institutions in the last few decades. They’ve eroded every single one.

For once, tell the truth!
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December 1, 2007 10:02pm
Grant

Thank you for that considered reply JJ.
However, your statement:
“John Key wants to revist those 1984 – 1992 concepts of letting the market sort out infrastructure, infrastructure needs considerable community buy in.”
lets you down a bit.
I don’t believe that Key has that in mind at all and I think you’ll find that he agrees with the bit about community buy in. This is what I understand from what I’ve seen on policy in that area anyway, and the first part sounds a lot like the labour / union scaremongering that goes on, usually about beneficiaries having their benefits cut and state house tenants being slung out onto the street.
Also, did you own any of the businesses you’ve worked in?
Lastly, I am well aware of the fourth labour govermment TY. I was 24 at the time they were elected.
G
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December 1, 2007 10:03pm
Lindsay Addie

John Key wants to revist those 1984 – 1992 concepts of letting the market sort out infrastructure, infrastructure needs considerable community buy in.emblockquote

That remark shows you have a poor understanding of Key, he is a lot more of a centrist than Don Brash ever was. Your attempt at political point scoring missed.

The left in NZ are now sounding like the Liberals in Aussie during the campaign, that is very negative.
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December 1, 2007 10:09pm
Peak Oil Conspiracy

Lindsay Addie:

They are in denial mode and cannot see and refuse to see that the bill is bad law.

JJ and Redbus have claimed (one more explicitly than the other) to be here for intelligent debate.

JJ at 8:35: “why are you so terrified of debate, i thought that’s what you wanted, free debate.????”

Redbus at 8:12: “I’m not here to wage into some pathetic ‘battle’, I just want to express my views on a political blog where one would presume other politically motivated Kiwi’s would do so also”.

I’m only asking them to contribute in the same way that they’re challenging others to.
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December 1, 2007 10:09pm
John Boscawen

The march was a great success. Thankyou to all those people who attended and those who helped promote it via emails. The crowd was huge. At least 5000.

I have not seen the Radio NZ coverage, but I spoke to their reporter as I left the Square an hour later. She was talking 1000 and I corrected her. If as quoted on the blog, RNZ have reported there were hundreds marching I find that very sad. Yes there were hundreds, about 50 hundreds.

I found I had to wait at least 10 minutes, possibly more, before speaking, as marchers conitined to come into QE II Square from Queen Street.

I will email my speech to David Farrar tomorrow.

It is very generous of bwakile to organise a fundraisng auction to assist with expenses. Thankyou. If anyone else wants to help contribute to the cost of the campign, you are very welcome. The collection taken up after the last march a fortnight ago , of $2700 would have been deemed anonymous and been forfeited to the government. I am yet to count today’s. My contact details are in the Herald ads that ran daily from Wednesday.

bwakile’s father Forbes Taylor was a Korean war veteran and marched with us in both Christchurch and Auckland. We do not know how lucky we are.

We may have to look at ads in the DominionPost, the Press and the ODT next week.

I was particularly interested in the comments of Tauei Notts who said the crowd gathered in a bar at the Ellerslie race course all thought they should have been there. I got a lot of apologies via email too. That would apply to most of the others as well. If 5000 marched, I would suggest there must be a growing number becoming aware of the provisions of this bill. I think we were lucky Parliament was in recess this week.

I find the comments on my critics very intersting. All I have done this entire campaign is focus on the submision of the Human Rights Commisison, the principal submissions of which continue to be ignored by the government. Don’t Labour, Green Party, NZFirst and United Future supportters/MPs think the HRC’ submisions are important?

The HRC has continually said the bill should be withdrawn and the restrictions on third party speech should be for no more than three months. The governemnt is proposing up to 11 months, the longest of any democracy in the world. I would have thought Labour supportters would have been concerned about this, and I am sure many of them are, which is why a large number marched today.

Thanks again for all those who helped today.
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December 1, 2007 10:12pm
Reg

JJ Said:
“Every first world country is run on an infrastructure that has every hallmark of socialist policy. Ya know those roads ya drive on, socialism paid for them.”

yeah JJ
Except the Autobahns of Germany were built by the National Socialists, and your Helen starting to look a little bit similar!
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December 1, 2007 10:15pm
Lindsay Addie

POC,

The biggest stumbling block to getting supporters of the EFB to have a reasonable debate is the fixation with the EB. Some of the left do admit the EFB has major issues like Chris Trotter on RadioNZ with Hooton and Kathryn Ryan the other day.
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December 1, 2007 10:16pm
JJ

OK P.O.C,

The problem is that the influence of hugely funded political campaigns in the last election year by National and its deep pocketed backers dominated the electoral platform to an absurd degree. Literally you couldn’t move in Auckland without seeing huge divisive simplistic billboards misrepresenting Labours policies. It felt fucking weird and I have never seen that in Auckland.

Also to add insult to injury an anonymous group pumped hundreds of thousands of dollars of literature into the electoral heartland trying to misrepresent the governments views. Not promoting policy just destroying others election campaigns. This was subsequently linked back to a well backed worldwide religious cult group.

There is no infinite electoral world where every voice is given the due consideration it deserves. It’s a finite platform dominated by ruling party A and ruling party B. Ruling party B is being financed by a small minority of citizens who want it to enjoy a huge electoral voice (advantage) this coming election. The intention of this bill is to put our politics back in some proportion. Down the road it would be beneficial to encourage even more proportion in dealing with politics however it’s encouraging that we have made a bold start from the “majority” of our elected officials across parties.

P.S

Law is never loophole free. I could charge any number of people with assault anytime they slap me on the back but as I understand the intention of the law I logically refrain from wasting my local policemans time. Parliament as far as I understand have never had a problem with this loophole.

This bill will put big money in proportion. The individual votes of those well heeled national party backers will receive their due attention and will thankfully not be overstated by the volume of their message . They will be allowed to gather support through the content of their message which is highly democratic. This will in turn create space for real policy debate and literally give smaller parties some curbside to put their billboards up. Let’s hear more voices at election, not just a screaming blue one.
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December 1, 2007 10:18pm
Lindsay Addie

John Boscawen:

http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/latest/200712011813/hundreds_turn_out_for_electoral_finance_bill_protest

That is almost word for word what RadioNZ has been reading out on their news bulletins.
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December 1, 2007 10:18pm
Johnboy

Has JJ the genius caught the redbus and f***ed off to the socialist hop????
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December 1, 2007 10:19pm
bwakile

John
I dropped Dad at the airport and he was just so proud to have been part of this , so our sincere thanks to you from our family.
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December 1, 2007 10:21pm
Gruela

Ha ha! No-one I’ve talked to even knows what the EFB is, and if you try to explain it to them their eyes glaze over. Labour’s going to win the next election because no-one cares about issues like this. In 12 months, you’ll all be living in a Socialist paradise, and then you’ll realise that all your complaints were completely groundless.
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December 1, 2007 10:24pm
John Boscawen

bwakile you and Forbes are very welcome.

It was great to have his support.

I will ring him tomorrow and thank him for coming.

I am going to bed now.
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December 1, 2007 10:25pm
Peak Oil Conspiracy

Lindsay Addie:

I was reading an interesting website just the other day. Frustratingly, I can’t find it again. Basically, someone had posted a “letter” from the EPMU to its members at the last election seeking to “inform” them, in a suspiciously partisan way, and encouraging them to similarly “inform” non-members. Perhaps someone else can point me to it again?
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December 1, 2007 10:26pm
JJ

“Under your Glorious Leader my company is slowly but surely going down the gurgler.” – johnboy

Thanks for the start of your post. We are all socialists, feel free to start a party that wants to rule without socialism. Good luck.

What does your company do? How will National help it?
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December 1, 2007 10:27pm
Johnboy

Gruela Says:

“Ha ha! No-one I’ve talked to even knows what the EFB is, ”

Thats cause you only talk to retards cause no intelligent person would answer you!
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December 1, 2007 10:27pm
Peak Oil Conspiracy

Gruela:

Ha ha! No-one I’ve talked to even knows what the EFB is, and if you try to explain it to them their eyes glaze over. Labour’s going to win the next election because no-one cares about issues like this. In 12 months, you’ll all be living in a Socialist paradise, and then you’ll realise that all your complaints were completely groundless.

*Sigh*

I’ve seen you challenging others at The Standard to partake in intelligent debate. How hypocritical for you to come over here and post drivel.
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December 1, 2007 10:30pm
JJ

“That remark shows you have a poor understanding of Key, he is a lot more of a centrist than Don Brash ever was. Your attempt at political point scoring missed.” – lindsay

Please show me the differences? What has changed since the last election?

“The left in NZ are now sounding like the Liberals in Aussie during the campaign, that is very negative.” – lindsay

ummmm. How So? The liberals? Are you sure we were watching the same election?
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December 1, 2007 10:32pm
Lindsay Addie

We are all socialists

You’re speaking for yourself on that score not for all of us.
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December 1, 2007 10:34pm
Gruela

Yeah, sorry, I was bored. I agree, it is flawed legislation, but the need is there for more transparency in ALL election and party funding. Sigh…I wish Labour had spent a bit more time on this bill. It might so easily have been completely different.
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December 1, 2007 10:34pm
Johnboy

JJ Says:

“Under your Glorious Leader my company is slowly but surely going down the gurgler.” – johnboy

Thanks for the start of your post. We are all socialists, feel free to start a party that wants to rule without socialism. Good luck.

What does your company do? How will National help it?”

Thanks prick. You are merely demonstrating the arrogance that most business people have experienced from your party. I am still waiting to hear what great contribution you personally have made to New Zealands GNP.

Stop talking shit here and let us all know what you have done to better the lot of your fellow man.
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December 1, 2007 10:35pm
Grant

Please show me the differences? What has changed since the last election?
Ummm…… he wasn’t leader at the last election? Does that count as a difference?
G
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December 1, 2007 10:36pm
JJ

“Also, did you own any of the businesses you’ve worked in?”

Yes and have worked for others. I like capitalism, I like wealth, i just don’t like bad business. I dislike Private enterprise bullying as much as I dislike state bullying, that’s why I vote because it gives me the chance to vote against restraint. i like debate, it’s educational don’t you think?
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December 1, 2007 10:37pm
Lindsay Addie

JJ,

Howard’s mob ran a negative campaign starting with the anti-union tv ads. Look I wouldn’t have voted for Rudd if I was an Aussie but he came across as positive and like he had some new ideas, Howard didn’t.

Re John Key he isn’t as far right as Brash, try reading some of his speeches. Also in an MMP environment he won’t get the support in parliament for a very right wing agenda.
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December 1, 2007 10:40pm
Josh

Excellent news, rather inspiring. I imagine the bill will still be pushed through, however. Planning for mass civil disobedience should be the next step.
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December 1, 2007 10:40pm
JJ

“We are all socialists

You’re speaking for yourself on that score not for all of us.” – lindsay

Fraid not Lindsay, even act has socialist policy. Get over that word. It’s not going away. It’s redistribution, it happens in all progressive societies, it’s like the elephant in the room. ..but start a non-socialist party – good luck.
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December 1, 2007 10:42pm
JJ

“Ummm…… he wasn’t leader at the last election? Does that count as a difference”

that’s right he was only shadow Finance minister, what power do they have?
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December 1, 2007 10:44pm
JJ

“What does your company do? How will National help it?”

Enlighten me angry man
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December 1, 2007 10:45pm
Peak Oil Conspiracy

JJ:

Thanks for your 10:18 response. You haven’t really addressed my specific points.

But your defence of the EFB (as I understand it) is:

(1) We need to reduce election campaign spending to the lowest common denominator, so that everyone can participate. You claim that some people can’t participate now because some messages are crowded out by the visual noise of other messages.

(2) We need to neutralise the Exclusive Brethren.

A fair summary?

It costs a fair whack to have a national campaign – the cost of advertising, and even “voluntary” time to run the campaign. So to participate, even on a modest scale, a significant number of people/organisations will be forced to comply with the EFB’s requirements (including registration, documentation requirements and spending limits).

Your reference to “the influence of hugely funded political campaigns in the last election year by National and its deep pocketed backers” is an admission that the EFB promotes Labour’s interests at the expense of National’s. By the way, those “simplistic billboards” you mentioned were National-funded billboards. They have nothing to do with third party campaign expenses.
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December 1, 2007 10:46pm
Tauhei Notts

Gruela’s comments are, and this very distressing to say, correct.
I think Labour will win because they are such clever manipulators of the truth; and there is a huge electorate out there whom Labour know perfectly well how to con. That large number of New Zealanders who use your instead of you’re; people as dumb as that cannot comprehend how bad this Clark regime is.
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December 1, 2007 10:48pm
JJ

“Also in an MMP environment he won’t get the support in parliament for a very right wing agenda.”

He’s not getting any support.

“Howard’s mob ran a negative campaign starting with the anti-union tv ads. Look I wouldn’t have voted for Rudd if I was an Aussie but he came across as positive and like he had some new ideas, Howard didn’t.”

Surely the content of the message is more important than wether it’s negative or positive. Have Unions helped the australian worker ? The Australian worker seemed to have voted “yes.” Not so much a negative campaign but a misguided one.

Unions in Australia, enough to lose an election on…and here we are in the joy of much looser employment law with our tiny salaries and wage increases relative to those unionised aussies.Go figure.
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December 1, 2007 10:51pm
Johnboy

JJ Says:

“What does your company do? How will National help it?”

Enlighten me angry man””

I take it that was aimed at me but I am not sure maybe you have been on the piss at the socialist hop. I refer you to my question that you seem unwilling to answer.

“Stop talking shit here and let us all know what you have done to better the lot of your fellow man”.
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December 1, 2007 10:51pm
Lindsay Addie

JJ,

We’ll just have to agree to disagree about what socialism is or isn’t. It would take this thread way off topic anyway.

Re electoral law some questions:

1. Do you think there should be state funding of political parties?
2. Do you agree that large anonymous donations to political parties shouldn’t be allowed?
3. Do you think the Labour Pledge card in 2005 was illegal or legal and within the spirit of fair play?
4. Did the infamous EB brochure at the last election benefit National by getting them more votes and if so how? If yes show me proof.
5. When electoral law is changed how would you go about it if it was your decision?
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December 1, 2007 10:52pm
JJ

POC .

National ran an 11 month election campaign because it was the only party that could, it became a vehicle of some big business concerns and that pisses me off because I want to increase my business at the expense of them. Competition in business is good eh?

A religious cult tried to fuck with our election as it has overseas, we need to start putting some stakes in the ground for these nutters.

That’s the debate. Our electoral freedom has already been challenged. Where was the front page editorial for that???

[DPF: So it was an 11 month campaign was it? Please detail what campaign activity was happening in Jan 2005? Or did you just invent that?]
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December 1, 2007 10:59pm
Grant

One last point JJ:
You said:”Also to add insult to injury an anonymous group pumped hundreds of thousands of dollars of literature into the electoral heartland trying to misrepresent the governments views.”

Assuming you mean the EBs here, they were presenting their take on the views of the Green Party in their leaflet.
With this, and some of your other gems this evening in mind, I’d be careful about making acusations using the word misrepresent if I were you.

G

PS Good night all. Us middle aged people need an early night after all that marching today.
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December 1, 2007 10:59pm
JJ

“Stop talking shit here and let us all know what you have done to better the lot of your fellow man”.

i’m trying to understand what your remedy is to your business going down the toilet, what is your business? I think that’s a fine caring question.
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December 1, 2007 11:01pm
Peak Oil Conspiracy

JJ:

Let’s just say for argument’s sake that I agree with your defence of the substance of the EFB. (I would disagree with you on some points).

Now do you defend the procedural concerns outlined in my 9:47 post?
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December 1, 2007 11:03pm
JJ

1. Do you think there should be state funding of political parties?
Well their already is isn’t there.

2. Do you agree that large anonymous donations to political parties shouldn’t be allowed?

no

3. Do you think the Labour Pledge card in 2005 was illegal or legal and within the spirit of fair play?

The law was a mess. As bad as when Bill English did it for sure.

4. Did the infamous EB brochure at the last election benefit National by getting them more votes and if so how? If yes show me proof.

Elections are decided by swinging voters. Putting such distressing propaganda into the electoral forum on the last week of polling was not going to help the government with swing voters was it? I mean the intent was obvious. Show me proof it didn’t benefit National? It’s hard to numerise either way but c’mon, the swinging voter is a delicate vote.

5. When electoral law is changed how would you go about it if it was your decision.

I would consult across parties and see if they were confident enough that their supporters would support change at the next election and then I would do the democratic thing and get a majority. It’s finance law by the way.
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December 1, 2007 11:12pm
Johnboy

You are a sad little shit JJ.

I have been reading here your solutions for all the ills that befall poor old NZ and your pontifications on them. Mostly revolving around shit like Fay Richwhite, EFB, Aussie elections waffle waffle etc.etc.

You talk with such authority on it all some may suspect you are the liarbore party mouthpiece.

You have made comment suggesting you are a person who understands business matters but when challenged on your credentials you remain strangely silent.

I ask you again to tell us what your business credentials are similar to what I said earlier about myself and then you may have some credibility.

If you are not prepared to divulge the basis of your great knowledge then we must only assume that you are what you appear to be a liarbore party wanker and you will of course be treated as such from now on.

Cheers Mate.
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December 1, 2007 11:17pm
Lee C

Ah gruela good to see you in the forum what counts.
Yes I have to agree. Labour should have spent more time on this Bill.
Few here in kiwiblogland have a problem with the issue of electoral reform.
The problem is, the way this whole fiasco (and I don’t think it is ‘hyperbole’ to describe it as such) was formulated.
The consensus is that the government acted as it has because it has drifted out of touch with the grassroots, and allowed its increasingly buerocratised attitude towards legislation sway it into believing ithat its own opinions equate to being a mandate.

This is clearly not the case.

the interesting thing about the Labour government’s attitude is that it has created a situation whereby, if you want a public debate on these rather important issues, you have to go to the blogs.

Once upon a time, governments used to ask/inform/seek mandate/ consult and debate major issues with the electorate, (possibly under the impression that the electorate actually charged them wth taking on the job of being our representatives, not our masters).

This bill has exposed an certain arrogance (in the literal meaning of the word) from Labour. In response, they charge its critics with all sorts of accusations.

I have been called out as having a partisan interest in ‘bringing Labour down’ over this. I make no secret of the fact that I hate them. But I would equally hate any gpovernment or paty which has acted in a similar way. I am simply not fooled by clever branding – this is not the Labour Party I grew up with. It is a perversion of the ideal.
The impusle to wish they had taken more time voids or ignores the fact that these are clever manipulators who didn’t just get it wrong. They are professional politicians who tried to rig a result, and have been caught at it.

Will the fact that they have been exposed at it stop them?

Only time will tell.
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December 1, 2007 11:19pm
krazykiwi

jj supports participation in democratic process so long as the subject does not hold religious views.

Let’s just string ’em all up eh jj? Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, other nutters (and parking wardens while we’re at it).

Once they’re all silenced we will enjoy a ‘pure’ democracy.
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December 1, 2007 11:21pm
Lindsay Addie

JJ

1. State funding of political parties.
I’m against it.

2. Large anonymous donations,
I am against those.

3. Labour pledge card etc
I agree with you it’s a balls up.

4. I don’t really care about groups like the EB spending money as long as they’re are up front about it BEFORE hand.

5.Changing electoral law.
The public needs to be given plenty of time (like at least 12 months) to be involved. Perhaps one way would be to have something like a Royal Commission. Then once broad agreement is found then the draft bill should not be rushed through and should require something like 60% agreement in the house.
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December 1, 2007 11:23pm
JJ

“Assuming you mean the EBs here, they were presenting their take on the views of the Green Party in their leaflet.”

O.K, I concede the leaflet was on the Greens. My bad. The most obvious ally of the 2005 Government until Winnie decided he wanted to get back into decision making. Your point is correct ,however I know you understand the significance of the EBS message in political terms and nearly everyone concedes that the EB were (are) a bunch of scary nutters. C’mon. It’s just unbelievable, i wouldn’t have believed it and we only got the proof when the Greens went apeshit about it. It was an unbelievable moment in our political history. Still angry.
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December 1, 2007 11:30pm
Peak Oil Conspiracy

Lindsay Addie:

One thing we should all be able to agree on: it’s bad process to pass law under urgency (on a matter as constitutionally significant as electoral finance) when there are acknowledged drafting deficiencies. I say “acknowledged” as Labour is trying to address those deficiencies – but in a ridiculous timeframe. Frankly, I can’t take EFB supporters seriously when they’re in denial about this.
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December 1, 2007 11:30pm
Policy Parrot

How quickly the froth of loathing boils to the surface…

All these opinions are totally irrelevant in terms that you people would never vote for the Government even if it was God’s greatest gift.

The confusion lies within the fact that you think freedom automatically means that National should win the next election, rather than any debate about actual electoral process or law, or the actual opinions of the rest of the electorate – which independent observers e.g. C4OG realise needs changes implemented before the next election.

It is because this law makes it more difficult for National and its support partners to run parallel campaigns, which have a marked impact on an undecided’s voting behaviour (“EFB – f**ked us” – only because they were exposed) – it why it so vehemently opposed.

The vile contempt for Labour exposes any pretence that this is a protest against MPs gagging free speech, and more about the private pretentions of a few big sponsors – who will want their pound of flesh from any future National-led administration allowed to disembowel the remainder of the assets built up since the Second World War.

Remember that it was only 2 years ago that National’s “vision” was comprehensively rejected by the public (over 60% voted against National-Act). And yet, examples are dragged up from the period prior to 2005 – i.e. the 2000 PAYE tax increase to 39% for income 60,000 +. Why should we convinced that National has changed from then?

Perhaps we shouldn’t be asking that question. Maybe we should just make people hate Labour so much that they vote National without caring what they will do to us.

I for one care, and I will do my upmost to prevent that happening.
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December 1, 2007 11:36pm
Lindsay Addie

POC,

You’re right the timeframe is the biggest stumbling block with this legislation which does need time to be got right as it is complex law anyway. The Govt could delay the passing of the bill till the new year to take the heat out of the issue and allow the bill to be better drafted.
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December 1, 2007 11:37pm
Johnboy

Shit o dear what are you on jj who are these nearly everyone people!!!

“and nearly everyone concedes that the EB were (are) a bunch of scary nutters. C’mon. It’s just unbelievable, i wouldn’t have believed it and we only got the proof when the Greens went apeshit about it. It was an unbelievable moment in our political history. Still angry.”

And WHO is angry!!!!!
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December 1, 2007 11:39pm
JJ

“jj supports participation in democratic process so long as the subject does not hold religious views.”

religion and the state – seperate, you bet ya and I’m sure a lot of people would agree with that. Personally I find religion crazy and disturbing. I would support a law that would ban anyone teaching religion to a child,
thats’ brainwashing and that’s what happened to me.

[DPF: Really – support the banning of teaching of religion? Not a big fan of a freedom then]
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December 1, 2007 11:39pm
JJ

And WHO is angry!!!!!

Tell we your industry , the one labour is killing. What’s the answer and do national have it?
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December 1, 2007 11:40pm
Johnboy

I am still waiting for you to respond re: Your business credentials or are you resigned to wanker status. Redbus has left the terminus but a parrot appears to have skidded in on a pile of shit. Is it the liarbore business round table on deck?
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December 1, 2007 11:43pm
Southern Raider

JJ so Labour coming out at the last minute with interest free loans had no affect on the election? you live in dreamland.

As for you comment that your dream is for SME’s to be the majority in NZ, they already are. Problem is they can’t survive in the current market because your beloved party has screwed them over with red tape and compliance. Socialism to the Labour Party just means every one works for the goverenment.
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December 1, 2007 11:50pm
JJ

POC

The urgency is the worry but the politics are obvious.

Labour and its present allies hated the last election and want to put a stake in the ground so it wont happen again. To royal commision it is too risky for them. They have long stopped reading editorials , (good call, they’re shit) and are gonna go the polls on this issue.

The politics are obvious. Politics are gonna become very robust in the next few years and threads like these will be where the most robust debate will happen. The world is changing, look a those american primaries, they are gonna get more and more combative. There are a lot of issues to work out. It’s a new world.
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December 1, 2007 11:50pm
JJ

“JJ so Labour coming out at the last minute with interest free loans had no affect on the election? you live in dreamland.”

That’s policy, they are allowed to announce policy and I seem to remember the media screaming how it would ruin the economy. Our higher education funding (loans) is an issue that will return. Will the nats reverse this policy? I mean a generation are still growing up with crippling loans.
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December 1, 2007 11:55pm
Johnboy

JJ Says:

And WHO is angry!!!!!

“Tell we your industry , the one labour is killing. What’s the answer and do national have it?”

Ah freudian slip there jj —-Tell WE your industry.

Not bloody likely jj or is that jerk jerk. You come on this blog posing like an intelligent being when the boy redbus can’t hack it and calls for help.

When you get asked the hard questions that you will not answer you need to get the parrot to help.

You are a complete tosser JJ I don’t think anyone on this blog will fall for your shit again. Fuck off you are a waste of space but it has been fun finding you out.

Guess what I am really only 31. Up yours trolll.
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December 1, 2007 11:56pm
JJ

Johnnyboy I can’t help you if ya don’t tell me your problem.

I’m a citizen, is that not enough? I thought we all got a vote.
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December 1, 2007 11:56pm
JJ

JohnJJ At least you are slightly more intelligent than redbus so there is hope for you yet. How old are you. I am 58. I have managed a company (not owned) for 30yrs. I am not one of Trotterskis “Owning Classes”, though I have been paid fairly well and had bonus, vehicle etc. My training was in chemistry not finance law etc. I am a pretty good amateur engineer and designed and built much of the factory I run. Under your Glorious Leader my company is slowly but surely going down the gurgler. We have gone from 30 staff on the factory floor to 6. The owner of my business is one of the most dedicated men I have ever met. He works harder than the rest of us combined to keep the place going because he is caring of all his staff. He should have retired years ago for his own health, he is 68. boy ,

You made this up? why?
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December 1, 2007 11:59pm
Southern Raider

So JJ it will be perfectly okay for Labour to release “policy” from their mountain of cash (which is actually ours) and no one is able to criticise them about this?

Take the EB’s out of this and all you’re left (excuse the pun) is Labour trying to supress any alternative position. You only have to look at our leaders face every time she is challenged to see the dislike for the rest of us.

Also if you are in business would you enter a deal with a contract based on common sense? It is a complete joke to have legislation open to interpretation.

I would like to propose that if the EFB comes into force that Helen announces that all coastal fishing will require a $500 annual license. Then all the people who sat on there arses today in Auckland will understand what we were marching for today as they will be shit out of luck and unable to voice an opinion.
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December 2, 2007 12:05am
JJ

“As for you comment that your dream is for SME’s to be the majority in NZ, they already are. ”

smes are crippled by the likes of telecom overcharging them for essential services. We need fresh thinking on small business.

“Problem is they can’t survive in the current market because your beloved party has screwed them over with red tape and compliance. Socialism to the Labour Party just means every one works for the goverenment.”

given the proposition that THE WORLD BANK no less judges us as one of the most open places to do business i think you’ll find the first world is red taped everywhere. The question is what tapes should be cut. Why all these
laws for business worldwide? Perhaps it’s the disappointing record of big business when laws are relaxed?
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December 2, 2007 12:06am
JJ

“coastal fishing will require a $500 annual license.”

hello, I missed this one.
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December 2, 2007 12:08am
JJ

“So JJ it will be perfectly okay for Labour to release “policy” from their mountain of cash (which is actually ours) and no one is able to criticise them about this?’

It was a policy designed to help students. If you don’t think students needed help criticise away.
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December 2, 2007 12:10am
JJ

[DPF: So it was an 11 month campaign was it? Please detail what campaign activity was happening in Jan 2005? Or did you just invent that?]

Fair enough, you seem to know something I dont. Please enlighten me.
When did it start?

[DPF: Oh I don’t know, but I thought you must as you made the claim. I certainly can’t recall seeing any billboards until May or so]
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December 2, 2007 12:12am
Southern Raider

I think you’re shadow boxing demons JJ. All NZ has is SME’s. Take away the top 10 companies and that is all that is left. It was also you’re Labour friends that privatised most of the companies you dispise like Telecom.

But it isn’t just business. People have finally had enough of Labour getting more involved in our lifes and telling us what to do. All we want to make sure is that we can voice our opinions next year.

Also what is your issue with religion. Surely what someone else chooses to believe is their issue, not your’s? On the scales religion would have provided more benefit to the world than the negative elements you may wish to list.
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December 2, 2007 12:13am
Redbaiter

“given the proposition that THE WORLD BANK no less judges us as one of the most open places to do business ”

I notice you repeat this bullshit quite often. Desperation I guess. You know that like most of the perceived “good news” connected with this government of stinking socialist cronies crooks and thieves, its just empty propaganda.

Here’s the reality- The ‘Ease of Doing Business’ survey does not cover compliance with tax, resource management or environment law, which are key issues for NZ companies. New Zealand’s high ranking in the survey is heavily influenced by its ranking on ‘ease of getting credit’, while its ranking on employment issues is far from the top.

As for “cutting red tape”- shut the fuck up. You and your hopeless commie mates have been expressing fake concerns about this for decades. You’ve never cut red tape, and you’ll never cut red tape. You’re full of commie bullshit. You’ll go on gradually choking the life out of enterprise in this country- cost of living will continue to increase. Real wages will continue to decline. We’ll keep sliding down any OECD ladder that counts.

You can’t do anything to change this. Your sick religion won’t permit you to. All you can do is bullshit. ..and you’ll still be desperately bullshitting when the whole fucken house of cards collapses in a sorry heap. The sooner the fucken better, because only then we will finally be rid of lying sermonising preaching evangelistic arseholes like you- and the plague of socialism that you impose upon us.
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December 2, 2007 1:06am
Peak Oil Conspiracy

Policy Parrot:

All these opinions are totally irrelevant in terms that you people would never vote for the Government even if it was God’s greatest gift.

The confusion lies within the fact that you think freedom automatically means that National should win the next election, rather than any debate about actual electoral process or law, or the actual opinions of the rest of the electorate – which independent observers e.g. C4OG realise needs changes implemented before the next election.

This “reasoning” can be turned on its head:

Your opinion is totally irrelevant. You’d vote for Labour, as you see this as God’s greatest gift. I, on the other hand, oppose the existing philosophy and process of the EFB. I’d go further and oppose its introduction in these circumstances by any political party. It’s you who’s politically blind.

You don’t caref for any debate about actual electoral process or law, or for the actual opinions of the rest of the electorate (including independent observers such as the New Zealand Law Society and the Human Rights Commisison). Those observers agree that the EFB requires proper consideration, and a proper process, not rushed enactment before the next election.
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December 2, 2007 2:09am
NX

Just checked out the pictures: http://infonews.co.nz/news.cfm?l=1&t=0&id=10484

Bloody awesome. Gave me goose bumps.

I bet Helen never expected this. The conversation between Heather Simpons and Helen would’ve gone something like this; H2 to H1 “the little people will never get their heads around the dry, complex EFB. Ram it through, they’ll never notice. And if they do notice.. it’s a year off till election, they’ll forget by then”.

It really makes my blood boil when I think of the contempt the Dear Leader has shown for the NZ people.

Now the sad think is that most New Zealanders would agree electoral law needs tightening up. But the partisan way the Dear Leader has gone about this goes beyond mere politics – she is bloody dangerous.

Way is Helen ending her political career this way? She’s an idiot.
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December 2, 2007 3:28am
Chinarugby

Hello All

Sadly am here in China – would love to have marched today in AKL. I have been a labour voter for oh so long I can honestly say that this alone has lost my vote. Power to the people.
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December 2, 2007 5:34am
toby1845

Policy Parrot: “…independent observers e.g. C4OG…”

PP, they are hardly independent. They are no more than a group of Labour hacks.
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December 2, 2007 8:08am
toby1845

JJ: “…and nearly everyone concedes that the EB were (are) a bunch of scary nutters.”

And the Greens aren’t? Both groups have a lot in common: they are inherently dictatorial, seek to rule others’ lives for them, expect everyone else to conform to their belief systems, and have a doomsday complex.

The only difference is that the EB spend their own money. Greens are too lazy or incompetent to earn any, so spend other peoples.
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December 2, 2007 8:11am
toby1845

JJ: “The problem is that the influence of hugely funded political campaigns in the last election year by National and its deep pocketed backers dominated the electoral platform to an absurd degree. Literally you couldn’t move in Auckland without seeing huge divisive simplistic billboards misrepresenting Labours policies.”

What about the $25 million spent by Labour on promoting Govt policies during the month leading up to the election? And the EPMU campaign misrepresenting National’s polices.

(Mind you, I love those EPMU vehicles. They stand out like dogs balls in carparks!)
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December 2, 2007 8:20am
Johnboy

For all you socialist pricks who think we are doing so well check out this link:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4299831a6160.html

Its anything that the incompetent Cullen says that needs to be taken with not a grain of salt but a truckload.
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December 2, 2007 8:27am
Frank.

Any of the Sunday newspapers carrying the story of the March? I couldn’t pick it up with a quick scan.

Interesting turn in the Watson case. (Needs to be reopened)

Time for a Royal Commission of Inquiry into police. Their sloppy investigation into the Election Advertising was responsible for the Validation Act and the proposed EFB
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December 2, 2007 8:31am
Inventory2

toby – we’re all wasting our breath and our fingertips trying to get JJ and his ilk to accept that “Labour good – National bad” is not the sole reason that the earth moves on its axis. The fact the the left has to put up its “second-tier” trolls is evidence that their heart isn’t in this debate anymore. On the evidence of yesterday, with anti-EFB sentiment growing by the day, which of NZ First or the Greens will be the first to blink? Surely Winston will be reconsidering his position when he sees his most significant constituency, Grey Power, is fervently against the EFB.
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December 2, 2007 8:32am
iiq374

JJ –
So you are wanting to stop big spending like the (alleged) $1 million of the exclusive brethren (which might be hampered by the EFB)

Or like the $30 million spent by the Unions in Australia in support of Labour (which wouldn’t be affected if repeated here under the EFB)?
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December 2, 2007 8:33am
iiq374

In terms of your lovely World Bank ease of doing business survey please go back through the Kiwiblog archives to see how many times this has been fisked.

It doesn’t even have the right figures for number of weeks compulsory leave, nor redundancy protection, nor …
If it can’t get the base data right at a macro level what store can you put in the conclusions?

But I’m sure you like your statistics like Cullen’s on the Student Loan bribe – if you don’t like the results just keep changing the inputs…
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December 2, 2007 8:35am
iiq374

O.k Grant, deep breath. Every first world country is run on an infrastructure that has every hallmark of socialist policy. Ya know those roads ya drive on, socialism paid for them.

Except for example Australia where a huge amount of infrastructure has com from private cash. Like the entire lite rail system, like the $55 billion dollars invested from the (private) superannuation schemes, like the tendered toll roads et al.
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December 2, 2007 8:37am
iiq374

Not promoting policy just destroying others election campaigns. This was subsequently linked back to a well backed worldwide religious cult group.

Actually JJ can you please tell us what in the pamphlet was factually incorrect?
Please? I keep having to ask this every time an opponent of the pamphlets comes up because I have yet to get an example.

Because the point is it doesn’t matter who put them out if what they wee saying was right. I don’t care if it was the Exxon corporation. If they were mis-stating then sure; but they weren’t.

Also your point about allowing others to have voices is crap.
If the political parties were being limited to the same spend as 3rd parties then maybe. But this is actually all about having that big blue and red voice overriding all others.

No – don’t say anything yet – stop and try to override your cognitive dissonance for a second and THINK. What is the effect of limiting 3rd party spending to a fraction of the political party spend which in turn is a fraction of the ruling Government spend? By your own “big money” argument who gets to dominate the message in what order?
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December 2, 2007 8:44am
pdm

Frank

I have jus read the SST and could not see anything on the march. Just a `left wing’ editorial saying the bill should be scrapped and redone from `the ground up’.
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December 2, 2007 8:50am
GerryandthePM

Tauhei Notts (10.48) acknowledges that Gruela (10.24) is sadly correct that most people in NZ neither know nor care about the EFB, and that this Labour-led Government will be returned in 2008.

They are correct.

The best scenario is for this self-serving administration to press on and pass this obnxious legislation, amidst the growing awareness of their insidious agenda.

The shameless arrogance of these socialists needs a much higher profile.

By election time “the Emperor’s new clothes” will finally be recognised, by all, as the naked ambition of the power-hungry Labour-led socialists.

Only then can they all be swept from the political landscape.
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December 2, 2007 8:50am
dad4justice

“I wish Labour had spent a bit more time on this bill.”

Its a bit like kiwi saver eh ? The rushed legislation from the sicko Labour Party derelicts will see many Australians tap into a grand for Christmas !!
Dumb arse Kullen & Klark make me sick . What fools , but look at Miss Hinumoo and you can see why .
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December 2, 2007 9:00am
Lindsay Addie

Policy Parrot’s post on this thread is a big pile of shit. He doesn’t have a bloody clue what the EFB debate is actually about. The left wing posters here all have there heads in the ground.

FFS the EFB isn’t just about Labour and National it’s about what is fair for ALL NEW ZEALANDERS. People like the molto agitato Mr Parrot and friends in the Govt are actually doing the National Party a huge favour but they are too stupid to see it.
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December 2, 2007 9:14am
iiq374

“I wish Labour had spent a bit more time on this bill.”

Its a bit like kiwi saver eh ?

And the Suppression of Terrorism Act?
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December 2, 2007 10:46am
WebWrat

DPF – In your initial analysis of the EFB (ages ago) you said that if we hadn’t registered as a 3rd party before the election date was announced, we wouldn’t be able to afterwards. Is this still the case?

Regarding Southern Raider’s scenario:

“I would like to propose that if the EFB comes into force that Helen announces that all coastal fishing will require a $500 annual license.”

The EFB rule would mean that any little Joe Average comrade that hasn’t registered will not be able to write a letter to the paper, speak to a group or send emails expressing his concerns about this new law.

Does this mean we all have to register in case something crops up that we might want to write a letter to the paper about and if we haven’t registered, we are effectively ‘gagged’?

Would you have to have your full name and address added to your letter to the editor?

Was this registration rule chucked out of the bill, or has everyone just forgotten about it?

If the rule is still there, it has nothing to do with ‘electoral finance’, it is just blatant gagging of the peasants!

[DPF: The amended bill allows you to still take part in election advertising without registering – up to $12,000. You may need your name and address on what you do though. The current bill cuts off registrations at writ day. The Electoral Commission has said there is no reason from their point of view not to allow registration at any time, but Labour is refusing to do this]
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December 2, 2007 10:51am
WebWrat

Thanks for your reply David.
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December 2, 2007 12:28pm
Adam Smith

The EFB crystallises my concern over the fact that NZ does not have a written constitution with entrenched provisions over election law and changes thereto. This position is exacerbated by the fact that we have a unicameral legislature not a bi-cameral one. The fact that we have so much bad law and are always passing amendment acts is partly a function of this, coupled with poor process and drafting incompetence.

It is time for a Royal Commission into our constitutional arrangements and the form which our governance should take in the broadest sense. A written constitution is an imperative. Safeguards must include ensuring that no more horsetrading with our rights to freely express our views can take place.

The EFB is repugnant and any party supporting it has no claim to any moral leadership at all. Amongst other things the constant denigration of the opposition to the bill, brings into question whether these people, the EFB proponents and supporters, have any attachment to democracy, freedom of expression or alternate views at all.

Another issue it highlights is the readiness of politicians to pass legislation and then say well ‘common sense’ or ‘discretion’ will apply. This is the hallmark of the facist state, where the law only applies when those in power wish it to apply. We are in some respects some way down that path now. In any event, this should in no way substitute for clearly written law which can be understood and readily applied.

It is further disquieting to read that the Electoral Commission wishes tha various political parties to get together to consider interpretations and guidance. This is evil and wrong. Those who should comply with the law should not be setting out the rules of interpretation, nor should there be a need for such rules if EFB was properly drafted.
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December 2, 2007 2:46pm
Sam Dixon

There are a series of pics of the protests that show nothing like 5000 people present… http://kiwiblogblog.wordpress.com/2007/12/01/there-were-how-many-protesting-in-auckland/

jayman explains that each photo overlaps and you can see some the same people in each – he’s done a count of the individuals present – he gets 1300.

I know that’s not what many of you will want to hear – but there’s documentary evidence, and you’re welcome to do your own count based on that.
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December 2, 2007 3:35pm
Lindsay Addie

Sam Dixon.

You’re as funny as a play!!

ROFL
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December 2, 2007 3:44pm
Peak Oil Conspiracy

Sam Dixon:

I know that’s not what many of you will want to hear – but there’s documentary evidence, and you’re welcome to do your own count based on that.

The fallacy of this is obvious. Sam says “here’s a split picture of a BIG lolly jar, each photo overlaps and you’ll see some of the same lollies in each, now do your own count based on that”.

And “jayman explains…” – no Sam, you forgot to quote Jayman’s other explanation:

And DPF’s gaggle of EFB critics are, by their own admission, new to this whole protest thing. So, if it’s difficult for old lefties to estimate crowd sizes it must be nigh on impossible for a bunch of right-wingers whose previous closest contact with protests has been to stand on the curb yelling, “get a job – ya bums!”.

Also, Sam, I’d prefer to leave it to media who must regularly report on protests:

“Several thousand people have marched in Auckland this afternoon in protest at the government’s Electoral Finance Bill.”
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10479495
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December 2, 2007 3:58pm
Lindsay Addie

The TVNZ website has the video clip of what played on last nights news, it has a couple of good panorama’s of the crowd. Everyone puts the number at circa 5,000 that includes the NZ police except Sam “I am a lawyer’ Dixon and RadioNZ.
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December 2, 2007 4:02pm
Peak Oil Conspiracy

Lindsay A:

I find it surprising that “Jayman” can count, without mistake, 1300 lollies in a jar. An incredible effort. Oh hang on.
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December 2, 2007 4:06pm
iiq374

But wait guys – she’s posted the photos as proof;

Oh, except not actually in high enough res for anyone else to count to prove or disprove…
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December 2, 2007 4:09pm
Lindsay Addie

The lefties here seem to be having a change in tactics, they’ve given up on debating the actual bill but squabble instead about how many were at the march.

Also where was the 5,000 strong counter march from the supporters of the bill?
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December 2, 2007 4:12pm
Peak Oil Conspiracy

Hopefully Sam Dixon will come back to respond to these pesky questions about lolly-counting. Enquiring minds wish to know.

Also Sam lies – to quote from KBB:

But one our readers, Jaymam, was there and believes s/he managed to photograph the entire procession as it went by. Jaymam then stitched the photos together into one long panorama and counted the individuals. Our meticulous informant claims to have counted no more than 1300 bodies attending the protest. Impressive work, Jaymam.

Two key phrases: “claims” and “no more than” put the lie to Sam’s claim that: “he’s done a count of the individuals present – he gets 1300“. Wow exactly 1300, no more no less.
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