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February 24, 2008 10:20am by David Farrar

General Debate 24 Feb 2008

Just 265 days to go until the election!

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Comments (78)

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SPC

It looks like people in Iraq are going to pay for the end of the headscarf ban in Turkey.

As the old Arab saying went, if a flea dared bite a Turk he would shoot the camel which hosted it, then walk across a desert to get a new camel. Which explained why Arabs did not revolt until WW1.
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February 24, 2008 11:08am
philu

go obama..!

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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February 24, 2008 11:26am
philu

get your heads around this one..righties..!..and obama-slaggers..!

http://whoar.co.nz/2008/mccains-media-mastermind-will-quit-if-obama-is-nominated/

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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February 24, 2008 11:42am
philu

this one is a must-read..!

http://whoar.co.nz/2008/this-weeks-discovery-that-not-all-women-may-have-g-spots-has-provoked-an-existential-crisis/

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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February 24, 2008 11:44am
Alces

From Andrew Bolt of the AU Herald Sun just returned from NZ.

“From my trip to New Zealand, one impression: they are sure up to their necks in race politics.”

As others see us?
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February 24, 2008 11:45am
SPC

Alces,

It’s Australia smug about one apology solving their race problems, while we have a Treaty issues, MMP, Maori electorates and a Maori Party. Note the Aborigine issues – land and minerals and social problems are not going anywhere.
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February 24, 2008 11:55am
SPC

A strange article in the HOS.

Apparently because more people are working between “60 and 65” now than in 1990 we somehow don’t have any problem affording age 65 Super for the babay boomers.

If that is true for those “over 65” in future decades, it means nothing given Super is paid out at 65, even if one is still working.

Or do they know something about someone’s plan to make Super a retirement benefit – given this would discourage retaining skills in the workforce (even if part-time) this is not necessarily a smart move.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/3/story.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10494207
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February 24, 2008 12:00pm
burt

We are up to our necks in race politics. Having a Maori party and Maori electorates is just greedy. Perhaps we should even this situation out a bit and assign special electoral rolls for every political party.
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February 24, 2008 12:02pm
SPC

They are called party lists burt. Just one question, would there be a Maori Party if there were no Maori seats (the correct answer is not yet, but in 10 years time when younger Maori begin to vote).
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February 24, 2008 12:05pm
Alces

Think Bolt’s point was that AU is a big place with many things happening, Aboriginal issues are just another brick in the wall, unlike Maori issues in NZ which seem to consume much of NZ’s energy.

Land problems? Not since the Wik decision, Aboriginals own 40% of the NT and collect big royalties from uranium mining in Kakadu, as an example.
The standard budget money spent specifically on Aboriginal and TSIs is $48,000 per person per year

Social problems? nice euphemism, try disintegration via alcohol and “sit down” money.

Smug. I don’t associate smug with AU, perhaps that’s more an NZ characteristic.
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February 24, 2008 12:11pm
john

death to medal stealers and finger amputations to the bro who tag and wreck your $100 plus letter boxes,I know thats too harsh ie amputionsIE a new thought, 10 hard wacks with a rattan, these tough stunch gangmembers would bawl and cry, remember they are the odd whitey, maori, pacific islanders , not the toughest and bravest in the world, a group of lossiers.
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February 24, 2008 12:14pm
Right of way is Way of Right

Here’s a thread kicker, as democracy is based on the rule of the majority, should you only be able to go on the Maori role if you can prove 50% Maori ancestry?
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February 24, 2008 12:17pm
SPC

Or only able to inherit grandpas land if you are a child of cousins.
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February 24, 2008 12:20pm
burt

Right of way

Thread kicker indeed. Why not. If it’s valid to have an electoral roll based on race then it is valid to put a qualifying racial ancestral percentage.
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February 24, 2008 12:22pm
SPC

Membership in an iwi is not based on race but ancestry.
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February 24, 2008 12:32pm
burt

SPC

So if race and ancestry are not the same thing in the context of the ‘Maori electoral roll’ then it must be quite offensive for different Iwi to be grouped together as a race. However I think the easy way to solve it is to have a separate electoral roll for each Iwi. Each other significant ancestral group could also have their own electoral roll. The McDonald’s and the Campbell’s would be starters I’m sure.
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February 24, 2008 12:43pm
Michaels

I like that right of way. Membership might be well down however.

It’s sort of along the same lines as an idea I have, well afterall they can have a Maori party so….
I think I might start my own slightly bent right party. However only for white men. No woman, no gays, no Maoris, just white men and bent right.
Now this idea may ruffle the odd tail feather, but my argument is very simple, if they can have a Maori party why can’t I have mine?
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February 24, 2008 12:46pm
SPC

I guess all other groups need is status as an indigenous people and a Treaty with a foreign Crown.
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February 24, 2008 12:52pm
SPC

burt

Is it offensive for Scots, Welsh and English to be called British?
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February 24, 2008 12:53pm
vto

watch it you fullas.

Don’t you know you will be labelled evil racist bigots for even daring to discuss race politics. Especially when you are probably all white middle class males – who so obviously don’t know anything about race, given that the white man is only a new arrival on the planet.

You’re simply not allowed to have opinions on this subject, let alone express them.

Haven’t you learnt anything in the last 9 years?
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February 24, 2008 12:54pm
aucklandabbey

Nice one Michaels. but bet you it wouldnt get us anywhere though ay. we are still considered minority in our own country now days ay. Its again spot the kiwi time ha!
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February 24, 2008 12:57pm
aucklandabbey

hahaha! i wasnt one of what you siad last time I looked VTO.
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February 24, 2008 12:58pm
dad4justice

By right, quick March into the lefty nitwits and lets play spot the real kiwi bloke. Platoon by the right, right, right, forward…..
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February 24, 2008 1:00pm
aucklandabbey

And I know we are a multi cultural bunch these days. just not alot heard from as we are now over run by other cultures ok.
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February 24, 2008 1:00pm
aucklandabbey

nice bit of humour is whats needed ha! nice one dad4justice. yes sarge ha!
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February 24, 2008 1:02pm
burt

Once all treaty grievances are resolved race based politics should settle down in NZ. Just one more reason to get the process moving as quickly and throughly as possible.
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February 24, 2008 1:04pm
aucklandabbey

just thought it was time to inject some humour ay dad4justice. good on you. im new to posting here so just taking it all in ha!
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February 24, 2008 1:05pm
aucklandabbey

Yeah i agree there Burt. set a date and no more claims after that date ay. then we can all get on with it ay.
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February 24, 2008 1:06pm
SPC

Probably burt. I wonder if the Maori Party have ever said they see their party as having a political future beyond completion of the settlements process and if so, in what form.
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February 24, 2008 1:10pm
aucklandabbey

Hey and SPC if i get nationality wrong I always apologize or ask first where people are from if I dont know ay. so all good here.
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February 24, 2008 1:10pm
burt

SPC

It’s an interesting question. on one hand the Maori party represents the best interests of Maori people so it’s arguable that the completion of the treaty settlements will have no impact on the strength of the party. However it’s also arguable that over the longer term as the ‘conflict’ between the crown and the Iwi, over settlements, are forgotten that Maori will align to a political party for political reasons rather than standing their ground primarily on race.
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February 24, 2008 1:31pm
Michaels

What’s going on??
I never knew February was the month of “flash up the blog”.

Is that the goodnight kiwi? Looks like him.
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February 24, 2008 2:17pm
chandler frank

so when did this whole design changeover happen?
I’ve just been reading through google reader, so only just noticed it…
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February 24, 2008 2:18pm
Michaels

D4J, I was thinking of having you as Deputy Leader and Minister of womans affairs and also Justice.
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February 24, 2008 2:21pm
Right of way is Way of Right

OK, ancestry as opposed to race. Here’s a hypothetical. A child with no genetic maori ancestry is adopted by a Maori couple. Is he able to enrol as a Maori, even though he has no genetic links with the Maori people.

Or. in another way, If I am accepted on to my local Marae and transcend my Manuhere status to become Tangata Whenua on that marae, (Which I have actually done!) Am I able to enrol on the Maori roll, and if not, why not, as I can tenuously claim iwi membership~!
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February 24, 2008 2:22pm
Lee C

I like it I really like the karma thing. I wanted to zap someone already but their comment was old. Can’t wait for Tane to rack up with his ‘I’m really too busy and too self-important to be arguing with you little people’ “additood” and watch him collect the bad karma! ps the ability to add/delete is also veeeery cool, as often I type stuff I might regret However, does this mean I am able to ‘deny’ a statement if I am losing a debate? roger nome will be using this all the time!
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February 24, 2008 2:22pm
Adolf Fiinkensein

As far as I know, anyone can enroll on the Maori roll. All you have to do is ‘feel like a Maori.’
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February 24, 2008 2:26pm
Adolf Fiinkensein

Hey! Comments editing, eh? Pretty smart.
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February 24, 2008 2:27pm
Right of way is Way of Right

Oh, David, Like the new look!
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February 24, 2008 2:27pm
Lindsay Addie

I like the swanky new site layout DPF, I agree with Lee C re karma it should be fun!
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February 24, 2008 2:31pm
dad4justice

Freaky stuff man, this new thumbs up and down thingy. Are we hitchhiking to planet Moonbeam ? Really doing my head in, but it might save me scoring a quick fire ton on the demerit board of dishonour? Who knows. Nice to see you, nice to see you, said Bruce after he asked Trevor is he was going to punch anybody sitting in the audience?
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February 24, 2008 2:46pm
Ross Miller

David … congrats on the new layout. Like the edit option. Handy for those of us whose brains run well ahead of their fingers.
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February 24, 2008 2:58pm
Spam

The new look is great, although the comments banner looks like a banner for a new post, not comments for the post above.
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February 24, 2008 2:58pm
Richard

The comments format is much better!
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February 24, 2008 3:01pm
john

fuck david a budda INFORM US
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February 24, 2008 3:05pm
Right of way is Way of Right

Hmm, first time I have seen a whole new release threadjack itself!

So, any more comment on the Maori roll?
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February 24, 2008 3:12pm
vto

yeah I got one right of way etc…

Maori roll has definitely had its place, but there is a point in the future where it will be redundant. Finding that point is one of the tricks.

One bottom line: you cannot have one society with two sets of rules for different peoples. One people will start to resent it, that resentment will morph to anger, then its aint far to the point of not return, namely hatred. It is simply impossible to have two sets of rules in one society. No matter brown, white, pink, yellow, green, red, rich, poor, pig, spider or pussy cat.
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February 24, 2008 3:26pm
PaulL

I see Michaels with his bent right party up above. Of course, he can have a party like that any time he wants. If he can get 5% of the vote or a electorate seat, he can even have MPs. I think what he really means is that he wants a separate roll for white slightly right guys. That one I can’t see happening anytime soon.

edited: typo
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February 24, 2008 3:28pm
Inventory2

DPF – like the new look!!
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February 24, 2008 3:33pm
PaulL

Just used the edit function. Nice. Another site I visit has a similar function, but I think is a little better in that the comment time will say “3:28 pm, edited shortly afterwards” or “3:28pm, edited 2 hours ago”. People have developed a habit of noting at the bottom what they edited and why – so as I did “edited: typo” or “edited: realised I was wrong”.

Being able to see that someone had edited their post would be nice, and if people tell mistruths about what they edited people will point it out pretty quickly.

Conversely, the edit function is pretty slick – I like the way it edits in place. Overall, very nice.

Did you sort through all the features yourself DPF, or did someone at Inspire do all the legwork? It looks like whomever has dug pretty deeply into the WordPress bag of tricks.
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February 24, 2008 3:33pm
andymoore

*How long will she last?*

How long will Helen Clark last?
click here to vote!!!
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February 24, 2008 3:49pm
Ghostwhowalksnz

Great news from that advanced nation the US.
They can now teach EVOLUTION in schools in Florida, but only if its called ‘Scientific theory of Evolution’

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/20/us/20brfs-EVOLUTIONTOB_BRF.html?scp=2&sq=evolution&st=nyt
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February 24, 2008 3:59pm
dad4justice

Don’t waste your time linking the NY Times Ghostly, as it’s just a bastion of liberalism !!
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February 24, 2008 4:03pm
calendar girl

New topic. Peter Dunne has become unusually vocal of late, an indisputable sign that election year has begun.

Apart from his public Key-Obama / Clark-Clinton comparisons, it was PD who was first out of the blocks in Parliament a few days ago to express moral outrage at TV3 harbouring one of the thieves of medals from the Waiouru Army Museum.

How can this person (i.e. PD, not the medal thief) express any serious opinion on morality? He heads a party that has:
– misappropriated around $60,000 (?) of public money for improper use in the 2005 Election campaign;
– conspired with the Government and other parties to pass legislation to validate that illegality retrospectively;
– failed to repay the misappropriated money due to Parliamentary Services, despite promises to do so.

While this unacceptable situation prevails, PD is a political (and moral) irrelevancy in my book.

Edited: typos
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February 24, 2008 4:53pm
mausism

“One bottom line: you cannot have one society with two sets of rules for different peoples. One people will start to resent it, that resentment will morph to anger, then its aint far to the point of not return, namely hatred. It is simply impossible to have two sets of rules in one society. No matter brown, white, pink, yellow, green, red, rich, poor, pig, spider or pussy cat.”

Maybe. But India has different laws covering at least some things — Muslim and Hindu law surrounding adoption, for instance, are very different, and the state allows space for the different communities to govern themselves as they see fit in these areas. A lot of aspects of Indian law are dealt with in separate jurisdictions, depending on the faiths of those concerned. There are tensions, obviously, and there are many aspects of Indian democracy we wouldn’t wish to replicate in New Zealand, but it offers us at least the possibility of thinking about a multi-jurisdictional society without becoming alarmist.

And Right of Way, you don’t even have to ‘feel Maori’ to enroll in the Maori electorate. All you have to do is tick a box. So your hypothetical child has a choice, Nania Mahuta has a choice, and you have a choice about which role you want to be enrolled in. Of course, whether or not you would want to if you don’t feel that you should is a matter for your own conscience.
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February 24, 2008 4:58pm
Michael E

It’s time for Winston to wake up as well – or is he off overseas (again) not seeking baubles? Any idea how he will go in Tauranga?
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February 24, 2008 5:20pm
john

get fucked david
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February 24, 2008 5:20pm
Tauhei Notts

Several years ago I woke one morning and did not want to go to work.
I felt like I was a Maori so I enrolled on the Maori Roll.
I even got a Christmas card from John Tamihere, my local M.P.
But re-enrolment came around and I had to declare that I was of Maori descent.
Despite my sisters having had some Maori in them ( about 12 centimetres) I could not answer that question in the affirmative.
So, I was removed from the Maori roll.
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February 24, 2008 5:23pm
PaulL

What was that? Forget your pills today john? Is there something that was about that I missed?
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February 24, 2008 5:24pm
Manolo

Is there any truth to the rumour that Tane and Cindy Kiro are one and the same?
The similarities deserve to be highlighted: both are staunch Labour supporters, Maori, politically correct to the hilt, feminists, and profess to support the workers (whatever that means).

Any comments?
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February 24, 2008 5:28pm
dad4justice

Yes the similarities between the antics of Tane and Cindy Kiro are startling and numerous too say the least. That would explain a lot to me if that were the case?
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February 24, 2008 5:45pm
Buggerlugs

Manolo –
You assume Tane is Maori. In reality, he’s probably the pimply little ginga that annoys the fuck out of people on picket lines by calling them ‘bro’ and ‘mate’ when all they want is a) a wage rise or b) a cuppa.
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February 24, 2008 6:42pm
PhilBest

I’m sorry I’m so late on this thread, but here’s a VERY GOOD ARTICLE ON FIDEL CASTRO. MUST-READ.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=1108FA89-5019-4FE5-A2FA-612C1B38C9D5
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February 24, 2008 6:46pm
john

Pault thanks for worring about my health
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February 24, 2008 8:12pm
Peak Oil Conspiracy

John:

No offence mate, but are you trying to get yourself banned?

Over here you say:

DAVID are you having a good weekend CHEERS , ban me if you must but i like your blogg

Then on this thread you make unhelpful comments like “fuck david a budda INFORM US” (3:05) and “get fucked david” (5:20). I’d suggest you focus on being less offensive and more constructive. What do you say?
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February 24, 2008 8:19pm
Michaels

One fault I see with the good and the bad.
You can thumbs up or down without logging in.
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February 24, 2008 8:29pm
john

um dont recall saying that ( get fucked david )????? WHY would i say that??? I WOULDNT SAY THAT, ( i respect Mr Farrar) and his blogg site) Hes a good person but would ban me(AND HAS) if i was bad , ps check out the nasty left, Im not as computer literate as those tossiers, hack hack NASTY NASTY but thanks for your concerns. Peak oil Conspiracy. I have been painting for hours why would i say (get fucked david) im not getting loose . maybe im a low level righty AND THEY NEED A EXAMPLE, ME
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February 24, 2008 8:59pm
philu

john is d4j..

they make as much sense as each other..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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February 24, 2008 9:19pm
john

David a thought , im in another large club a poster had his email club identity stolen by someone in Africa , who procceded to beg for money using this persons (realtime)email address, I have talked with my wife and i cannot find any reason to abuse you , SO CHECK YOUR SITES SECURITY, its a worry John
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February 24, 2008 9:21pm
john

philu go away ,nasty little thing , I dont need your nasty hassels, get a real job lossier
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February 24, 2008 9:25pm
dad4justice

philu do you have a backbone ?
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February 24, 2008 9:28pm
philu

are you a sub-editor..?..john..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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February 24, 2008 9:38pm
philu

yes..thanks for asking..d4j..

it keeps my mouth from ending up down around my knees..

how about yourself..?

um..!..how many meds off the ledger-list are running around inside your head..?..d4j..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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February 24, 2008 9:41pm
john

philu in the real word of book printing that im in ,i have meet possiers that seem like you,shallow types, with no substance (LIKE CHEAP TOILET PAPER) , so you can abuse me , no problems, but walk the walk mate im a pride in print (PRINTER) best in NZ a few years back and have been abused by real people my peers, i respect and GIVEN,ABUSE not a blogg identity like you philu that i dont know, but you seem to have personal problems( as a first aid provider)at work Philu i feel that i should give you the support that you need.All that post on this blogg will support you mate , we are here to help you,left or right , NZ helps those who need helping
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February 24, 2008 9:53pm
philu

one for the climate-change ‘denialists’ that lurk in these parts..

http://whoar.co.nz/2008/pentagon-tells-bush-climate-change-will-destroy-ustodays-must-read/

tho’..they have been very quiet lately..

haven’t they ..?..adolf..?

this should shut them up..forever..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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February 25, 2008 6:32am
philu

do you think we’ll have much need/use for polling..?

david..?

(might be time to ‘diversify’..

eh..?..)

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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February 25, 2008 6:56am
philu

you also ‘need to read’ this one..

http://whoar.co.nz/2008/the-public-fortunately-doesnt-understand-how-bad-the-situation-isif-it-did-we-might-have-a-real-panic-on-our-hands/

this one is for the ‘economic-meltdown-denialists’..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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February 25, 2008 7:29am
Alces

Old news phil.
Watch NZ rates move independently of the NZ Res settings if US funding dries up.
The smarter money has had its bets on the US$, gold and resources in place for a long time.
Careful you aren’t a retail bunny pilgrim.
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February 25, 2008 10:48am

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