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August 6, 2008 9:44am by David Farrar

General Debate 6 August 2008

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General Debate

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democracymum

Enjoyed the debate the other night at Victoria. It was well attended pretty much a full house.

God is not dead – the negative team were the clear winners.
Gordon Copeland was surprisingly impressive as Leader of the Negative as were all of his team.
Definitely had God on their side…
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August 6, 2008 9:53am
Lipper

The failure of the Immigration Policy to attract the best skills, or most Entreprenurial types from the likes of Australia, Canada, UK, and similar is a real worry.

Somalians, and Ethiopians, come on down! Brit types, forget it! You don’t understand our culture.

Gone from over 1000 real success stories to one last year. Helen must be very proud!
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August 6, 2008 9:55am
PhilBest

Thanks for that info, DemocracyMum. That means we won’t be hearing about it at all, then, other than from fellow “ChristianFundy nutbars”.
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August 6, 2008 10:00am
Owen McShane

Is Green Public Transport a myth?
A fascinating report by a Green who decided to examine a Green assumption.
The author is Brad Templeton, the chairman of the Electronic Frontier Foundation.

http://www.templetons.com/brad/transit-myth.html.

This analysis of transport modes by a Green is one of the most reasoned, and comprehensive, I have read on the topic on the Green status of different modes of transport.
He confirms what I have read in a large number of reports but this brings so much together into one paper that it is a truly valuable resource.
HIs policy recommendations are excellent if only because they do not attempt to reshape our cities overnight or demand massive changes in human behaviour.
Unlike most writers on this topic he also identifies the unknowns in his calculations and suggests where more work needs to be done.
He also seems more aware of the ongoing technology developments in the wings – especially robotic cars.
Anyhow enjoy it. It is refreshing in its candour and cool analysis.
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August 6, 2008 10:05am
Lipper

Why would a country like NZ want to cream off the best ‘Rainmakers’ in the Western World, when they can have Orientals driving Taxis and the like? Or importing the greenest candidates they can lay their hands on. If Communism wasn’t debunked, these prats would be very happy to sit in that Camp. As it is, they have to agitate about something. Utter BS.
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August 6, 2008 10:05am
dime

Ok.. we need someone to get us some “secret labour recordings”.

who wants to dress up as a leftie?

you will need to grow a godawful beard (they act as a mask to cover the shame you feel)

you will need glasses

you will need the standard issue leftist lisp

you will need an ill fitting suit .. the older the better

you will have to pretend to give a shit about workers rights.. (the leftist way, which means you will want to take their hard earned money for “union fees” and maybe talk about strike action which will justify your job, but financially fuck the people you care about).

you must also believe that men are evil and are paedophiles
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August 6, 2008 10:16am
Falafulu Fisi

TV2 Program Sensing Bullshit (Murder) with its deluded psychics received government funding of 1 million to make 5 shows for this season. This is a waste of taxpayer’s money that could have been funneled to a University science project.
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August 6, 2008 10:18am
LC

You forgot the lobotomy…
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August 6, 2008 10:20am
big bruv

It was very disappointing to see John (Me Too) Key say once again that he will not fight fire with fire on Breakfast TV this morning.
Its all very well to take the morale high ground Mr Key but unless you start hitting back you are facing another three years on the opposition benches.
I would like to see the Nat’s start digging into the private life of dear corrupt leader, we all know there is plenty there to find, they should also be reminding all and sundry that Labour are the party with the hidden agenda and Labour are the party that sent out eviction notices to state housing tenants before the last election.
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August 6, 2008 10:21am
dime

sensing bullshit is like porn for chicks! they all seem to watch it.. even the smart ones 🙁

from memory a psychic has never helped solve a murder in the US. but because the public are so dumb, they chew up plenty of resoruces.. they always pop up at high profile cases and the FBI has to listen to their shit, otherwise there is a public backlash…

chuck me on a tv show.. bet ya i can come up with “facts” about unsolved murders!
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August 6, 2008 10:33am
PhilBest

Owen, that is an very interesting study, but shouldn’t you post it on the thread about 20 year plans, 2 or 3 threads before this one…

I’ll do so shortly if it looks appropriate and you haven’t done so already.
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August 6, 2008 10:33am
Lipper

What is porn for chicks?

All the women I know profess to hate the stuff?

And yet Kinsey studies in the 50’s suggested there was no difference in arousal!
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August 6, 2008 10:38am
Cale

Given the obsession of the left with bloggers appearances how about a top ten hottie list for NZ bloggers? One for each sex of course.

Nominations for hottiest femail blogger and hottiest male blogger are now open.
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August 6, 2008 10:42am
toad

Helen Clark, John Key, and Winston Peters were flying to a debate.

Helen looked at John, and said, “You know I could throw a $1,000 bill out of the window right now and make somebody very happy.”

John shrugged his shoulders and replied, “I could throw ten $100 bills out of the window and make ten people very happy.”

Winston added, ” I could throw one hundred $10 bills out of the window and make a hundred people very happy.”

Hearing their exchange, the pilot rolled his eyes and said to his co-pilot,

“Such big-shots back there. I could throw all three of them out of the window and make 4.3 million people very happy.”
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August 6, 2008 10:59am
Bob

I feel a bit of sympathy for both Bill English and previously Mike Williams. Both have suffered from eavesdropping on private conversations. The ease of secret recording means people can’t say anything anywhere. People have to be able to let off steam and say what they really think occasionally. I don’t believe Bill English and John Key are totally in tune. I would not be surprised to find each has some criticism of the other. The next thing we will see what Key discussed with his wife over dinner spread all over the front page. Mind you one difference between English and Williams is that Williams put his foot in it by denying what he said.
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August 6, 2008 11:07am
PhilBest

Good one, Toad, keep it up……..
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August 6, 2008 11:08am
Owen McShane

Philbest
It just happened that I saw the general debate blog before I got to Long term plans.
You are probably right.
The rail advocates obviously believe they can forecast the long term future because rail is the least adaptable form of transport we have.
Rubber on road is much more adaptable.
But the reason the train fans love trains is does lock us into a fixed future and makes us easier to “Plan”.
That’s why the Soviets loved trains and they were such a popular image in their propaganda.
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August 6, 2008 11:14am
getstaffed

What is porn for chicks?

Lipper – I think even asking that question is a turnoff. $10 says that your -ve karma is from chicks!
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August 6, 2008 11:17am
goodgod

Big Bruv, Key gave Helen a long overdue horse whipping this morning. There will be a new reality TV show coming up: “When Good-Guys Go Bad”.
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August 6, 2008 11:25am
unaha-closp

Solzhenitsyn has died.
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August 6, 2008 11:33am
goodgod

“…many people living in the West are dissatisfied with their own society. They despise it or accuse it of not being up to the level of maturity attained by mankind. A number of such critics turn to socialism, which is a false and dangerous current.

I hope that no one present will suspect me of offering my personal criticism of the Western system to present socialism as an alternative. Having experienced applied socialism in a country where the alternative has been realized, I certainly will not speak for it. The well-known Soviet mathematician Shafarevich, a member of the Soviet Academy of Science, has written a brilliant book under the title Socialism; it is a profound analysis showing that socialism of any type and shade leads to a total destruction of the human spirit and to a levelling of mankind into death. Shafarevich’s book was published in France almost two years ago and so far no one has been found to refute it. It will shortly be published in English in the United States…”

ALEXANDER SOLZHENITSYN, 1978
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August 6, 2008 11:40am
big bruv

Toad

Can I be the pilot of the next plane please, this one will have Comrade Sue Bradford and Comrade Keith Locke as passengers.
I will personally kick them out at 20,000 feet.
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August 6, 2008 11:43am
goodgod

“…Because instant and credible information has to be given, it becomes necessary to resort to guesswork, rumors and suppositions to fill in the voids, and none of them will ever be rectified, they will stay on in the readers’ memory. How many hasty, immature, superficial and misleading judgments are expressed every day, confusing readers, without any verification. The press can both simulate public opinion and miseducate it. Thus we may see terrorists heroized, or secret matters, pertaining to one’s nation’s defense, publicly revealed, or we may witness shameless intrusion on the privacy of well-known people under the slogan: “everyone is entitled to know everything.” But this is a false slogan, characteristic of a false era: people also have the right not to know, and it is a much more valuable one. The right not to have their divine souls stuffed with gossip, nonsense, vain talk. A person who works and leads a meaningful life does not need this excessive burdening flow of information.

Hastiness and superficiality are the psychic desease of the 20th century and more than anywhere else this desease is reflected in the press. In-depth analysis of a problem is anathema to the press. It stops at sensational formulas.

Such as it is, however, the press has become the greatest power within the Western countries, more powerful than the legislature, the executive and the judiciary. One would then like to ask: by what law has it been elected and to whom is it responsible? In the communist East a journalist is frankly appointed as a state official. But who has granted Western journalists their power, for how long a time and with what prerogatives?

There is yet another surprise for someone coming from the East where the press is rigorously unified: one gradually discovers a common trend of preferences within the Western press as a whole. It is a fashion; there are generally accepted patterns of judgment and there may be common corporate interests, the sum effect being not competition but unification. Enormous freedom exists for the press, but not for the reader ship because newspapers mostly give enough stress and emphasis to those opinions which do not too openly contradict their own and the general trend…”

ALEXANDER SOLZHENITSYN, 1978
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August 6, 2008 11:46am
Lipper

Oh Yes!

“Lipper – I think even asking that question is a turnoff. $10 says that your -ve karma is from chicks!”

If only I was clever, handsome, and not Bald.

Keep your 10 bucks.

Going to hide in the bell tower again!

Esmerelda.
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August 6, 2008 11:55am
Lipper

So what are Labour’s new policies then?

They have made a fist of beasting National, about having no policies. Yet when revealed, always get scorned.

And yet there is nothing from the Spenders from Hell!

How about building Canals, and Windmills?

Or importing more Pacific voters?
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August 6, 2008 12:22pm
PhilBest

Alexander Solzhenitsyn speaking at Harvard in 1978:

“Very well-known representatives of your society, such as George Kennan, say: We cannot apply moral criteria to politics. Thus we mix good and evil, right and wrong and make space for the absolute triumph of absolute Evil in the world. On the contrary, only moral criteria can help the West against communism’s well-planned world strategy. There are no other criteria. . . .

In spite of the abundance of information, or maybe because of it, the West has difficulties in understanding reality such as it is. There have been naive predictions by some American experts who believed that Angola would become the Soviet Union’s Vietnam or that Cuban expeditions in Africa would best be stopped by special U.S. courtesy to Cuba. Kennan’s advice to his own country — to begin unilateral disarmament — belongs to the same category. If you only knew how the youngest of the Moscow Old Square officials laugh at your political wizards! As to Fidel Castro, he frankly scorns the United States, sending his troops to distant adventures from his country right next to yours.

However, the most cruel mistake occurred with the failure to understand the Vietnam war. Some people sincerely wanted all wars to stop just as soon as possible; others believed that there should be room for national, or communist, self-determination in Vietnam, or in Cambodia, as we see today with particular clarity. But members of the U.S. antiwar movement wound up being involved in the betrayal of Far Eastern nations, in a genocide and in the suffering today imposed on 30 million people there. Do those convinced pacifists hear the moans coming from there? Do they understand their responsibility today? Or do they prefer not to hear? The American Intelligentsia lost its [nerve] and as a consequence thereof danger has come much closer to the United States. But there is no awareness of this. Your shortsighted politicians who signed the hasty Vietnam capitulation seemingly gave America a carefree breathing pause; however, a hundredfold Vietnam now looms over you. That small Vietnam had been a warning and an occasion to mobilize the nation’s courage. But if a full-fledged America suffered a real defeat from a small communist half-country, how can the West hope to stand firm in the future?”
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August 6, 2008 12:27pm
GPT1

Good point Lipper. What are Labour’s new policies? And have they ruled out any tax increases?
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August 6, 2008 12:41pm
PhilBest

MORE from Alexander Solzhenitsyn at Harvard in 1978

“A decline in courage may be the most striking feature that an outside observer notices in the West today. The Western world has lost its civic courage, both as a whole and separately, in each country, in each government, in each political party, and, of course, in the United Nations. Such a decline of courage is particularly noticeable among the ruling and intellectual elites, causing an impression of a loss of courage by the entire society. There are many courageous individuals, but they have no determining influence on public life.

“Political and intellectual functionaries exhibit this depression, passivity, and perplexity in their actions and their statements, and even more so in their self-serving rationales as to how realistic, reasonable, and intellectually and even morally justified it is to base state policies on weakness and cowardice. And the decline in courage, at times attaining what could be termed a lack of manhood, is ironically emphasized by occasional outbursts and inflexibility on the part of those same functionaries when dealing with weak governments and with countries that lack support, or doomed currents which clearly cannot offer resistance. But they get tongue-tied and paralyzed when they deal with powerful governments and threatening forces, with aggressors and international terrorists.

“Must one point out that from ancient times a decline in courage has been considered the first symptom of the end?

“Today’s Western society has revealed the inequality between the freedom for good deeds and the freedom for evil deeds. A statesman who wants to achieve something highly constructive for his country has to move cautiously and even timidly; thousands of hasty (and irresponsible) critics cling to him at all times; he is constantly rebuffed by parliament and the press. He has to prove his every step is well founded and absolutely flawless. Indeed, an outstanding, truly great person who has unusual and unexpected initiatives in mind does not get any chance to assert himself; dozens of traps will be set for him from the beginning. Thus mediocrity triumphs under the guise of democratic restraints.”
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August 6, 2008 12:53pm
philu

piss-off..!..

spammer..!

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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August 6, 2008 1:09pm
first time caller

Bob at 11.07. Another important distinction between the English/ Smith recordings and the Williams one is that Williams was on stage in front of their entire conference, therefore what he was saying was not a “private” conversation or a personal opinion.
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August 6, 2008 1:15pm
polemic

Excellent Post PhilBest

Try and tell the pinko lefties about Alexander Solzhenitsyn’s view of Vietnam in fact that was H1’s infamous start at disagreeing with the real world and as always they forget that “Peace is Won”- because sweet talking flower power is next to useless when your dealing with tryrants like Hitler and Sadaam and Chairman Mao!!!!!!

ps it appears above as if Philu has now admitted he is a spammer

philu (2664) Add karma Subtract karma –1 Says:
August 6th, 2008 at 1:09 pm

spammer..!

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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August 6, 2008 1:39pm
dave strings

Polemic
He has indeed. But as I’ve already told him, it’s way past time for his medication and so he does strange things – I bet he denies it within the next 24 hours and claims that he is the only one allowed to operate a blog made up entirely of cut and paste posts!

Never mind

Here Fill Fill Fill, get your meds, there’s a good boy!
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August 6, 2008 4:58pm
chiz

Falafulu Fisi :TV2 Program Sensing Bullshit (Murder) with its deluded psychics received government funding of 1 million to make 5 shows for this season.

They should predict the lotto numbers and fund themselves if they’re so good.
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August 6, 2008 5:42pm
Portia

Shock, horror, probe… Paris Hilton announces her intention to stand for President:
http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/64ad536a6d
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August 6, 2008 5:50pm
andretti

We had a (famous?.)NZ psychic stay in our hotel with her friend staying in another room ,the psychic came to reception to ask what room her friend was in??????.
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August 6, 2008 6:48pm
Steve

Variable Arithmetic.
Three men went to a motel. the motel manager said a room costs $30

each man put up $10 and left for their room. A little while later the manager

realised the room was only $25 and sent the bellhop back with $5. On the

way back the bellhop couldnt work out how to split the $5 so he gave the men

$1 each and kept two for himself. This meant the men only paid $9 each totaling $27

and the bellhop had $2 so where did the other dollar go to. This is a bit difficult to

get but more importantly what were three men doing in a cheap motel together.
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August 6, 2008 7:53pm
Patrick Starr

‘but more importantly what were three men doing in a cheap motel together.’

wasn’t at the Labour party conference by any chance was it?
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August 6, 2008 7:59pm
grumpyoldhori

Owen,
I am a grizzled old labour type, one of the few straight labour males
left 🙂
I spend my time banging idiots heads from both the right and the left
together, the Nat types who believe that sixty tonne trucks are more
dangerous to cars than those at twenty tonne.
Labour types believe rail is the answer until you ask them where the
hell they will get the bullock trains for delivery from the rail head.
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August 6, 2008 10:05pm
OECD rank 22 kiwi

Union hero Arthur Scargill says that Climate Change protestors are a bunch of numpties for protesting about the possible construction of a coal fired power station. He says they should be protesting against Nuclear power stations instead.

Interesting point is that his comments put the red movement in direct conflict with the green movement. It would be like watching the Green Party tear itself apart. The Green party however is actually a red movement wearing green to cloak its real motives.

When two tribes go to war one is all that you can score.
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August 6, 2008 10:40pm
capills_enema

It was the Frankie Goes to Hollywood quote that finally swayed me on this one.

‘Relax, don’t do it. When you wanna come’. That’s a good one too.
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August 6, 2008 10:44pm
paradigm

Speaking to the green public transport issue:

The Green Party has been incredibly disingenuous in their push for electrified rail. They have repeatedly claimed that this would benefit the environment as the trains can run “cleanly” on hydro-generated electricity; unfortunately the hydro power stations are already run more or less to capacity: any additional load (such as that caused by electric trains) would have to be taken up by coal/gas/oil power plants. Switching from Diesel to Electric trains then becomes an exercise in moving the CO2 production site rather than slashing the CO2 produced. In the interest of fairness, one should point out that a large power station can generate energy more efficiently than the engine in a train and so a measure of reduced emissions can be obtained, however it is a far more limited saving than what has been suggested by the greens. Moreover while trains can be more efficient than motor vehicles such as buses when completely full, a large train carrying only a few passengers will take more energy to transport them to its destination than an equally occupied bus. Similarly a bus carrying only a couple of passengers will take more energy to transport them than a car. As its name suggests, “mass transit” requires a mass of people wanting to all move in the same direction to be efficient. With the highly dispersed population in NZ, the utility of a conventional public transport system will always be limited.

Speaking to the trials and tribulations of “Red” Greens:

The green party’s far left nature is, at its root, fundamentally incompatible with implementing pro green policy: Far lefties allegedly wish to improve the standard of living for the underprivileged; this, in practice requires increasing energy supply (more CO2 production) and food supply (through more farming). Actual greens want to reduce CO2 emissions (less CO2 production) and protect biodiversity (which means clearing less land for farming). The two positions are polar opposites.
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August 6, 2008 11:42pm
OECD rank 22 kiwi

Labour looks like it is now getting down in the trash, literally.
Over at stuff:
Key’s rubbish searched – Nats
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August 7, 2008 5:14am
OECD rank 22 kiwi

Roger Douglas bang on the money again:
Families paying $230 week for Govt binge, says Douglas
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August 7, 2008 5:26am
getstaffed

:
Watch what you say – Moreu
:
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August 7, 2008 8:34am
PhilBest

Paradigm, there is a lot more reasons why public transport is nowhere near as efficient as everyone is wrongly presuming. Did you read the analysis that Owen McShane linked to near the start of the thread?

Here is how it starts:

Is green U.S. mass transit a big myth? By Brad Templeton

“As part of my research for an article on robotic cars and how they change so much of the world, I’ve been looking into the energy use of various forms of transportation.

What I learned about public transit in the USA shocked me. I’ve been a fan of public transit, taking it where it’s practical for me, and feeling green about it. That transit is a significantly greener way to get around than private car travel almost goes without saying in our thoughts and discussions.

Disturbingly, this simply isn’t true……”

But we got talking further on this issue on the thread 2 or 3 down from this one, on 20 year plans…….
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August 7, 2008 10:21am
PhilBest

And more from the Brad Templeton essay:

“A full bus or trainload of people is more efficient than private cars, sometimes quite a bit more so. But transit systems never consist of nothing but full vehicles. They run most of their day with light loads. The above calculations came from figures citing the average city bus holding 9 passengers, and the average train (light or heavy) holds 22. If that seems low, remember that every packed train at rush hour tends to mean a near empty train returning down the track.

Transit vehicles also tend to stop and start a lot, which eats a lot of energy, even with regenerative braking. And most transit vehicles are just plain heavy, and not very aerodynamic. Indeed, you’ll see tables in the DoE reports that show that over the past 30 years, private cars have gotten 30% more efficient, while buses have gotten 60% less efficient and trains about 25% worse. The market and government regulations have driven efforts to make cars more efficient, while transit vehicles have actually worsened.

In order to get people to ride transit, you must offer frequent service, all day long. They want to know they have the freedom to leave at different times. But that means emptier vehicles outside of rush hour. You’ve all seen those huge empty vehicles go by, you just haven’t thought of how anti-green they were. It would be better if off-hours transit was done by much smaller vehicles, but that implies too much capital cost — no transit agency will buy enough equipment for peak times and then buy a second set of equipment for light demand periods.

Transit planning is also driven by different economies. Often transit infrastructure (including vehicles) is paid for by state or federal money, while drivers (but also fuel) are paid from local city budgets. This seems to push local city transit agencies to get bigger vehicles and fewer drivers where they can, since drivers tend to be hired full-time and can’t be kept idling in low-demand periods.

Yes, you should still take transit

Heavy Rail Energy Efficiency
There is a bit of a paradox within these numbers. In spite of them, it is always the green move for any individual to take existing mass transit over their car. That’s because the transit is running anyway, so the incremental cost of carrying one more passenger is indeed less than just about any private vehicle. It is similarly green to carpool in somebody else’s car that’s going your way.

As such, these numbers should not make you feel better about taking your car instead of the train. Particularly solo, since solo drivers are what make the car’s average efficiency worse while carpoolers make it better.

These numbers instead are there to guide policy. What sort of transportation infrastructure should we build to be green? And, to a more limited extent, what sort of transportation should you support? The math should influence your decisions, and those of city planners who work for you, on what new transit to build, and what to keep running.

Is this fair?
As noted, these are averages. It’s slightly fairer to compare city MPG with urban transit, and highway MPG with longer range transit and rail. However, newer hybrid cars actually get better mileage on city streets, and this is how cars are trending. Scooters, electric cars and other such vehicles are better by any standard. (It is for this reason that I concluded that robot cars could solve our transportation energy problem, because by delivering and refueling themselves, they make marketable the use of lightweight, short-range electric vehicles that beat out cars or transit by large margins.)

However, again, arguments about 10% there and 20% here don’t alter the basic issue, which is we perceive transit as being much better than cars, several times better. I’ve seen no modifications of the numbers that improve the figures for transit even remotely close to this……..”

DO READ THE WHOLE THING. Link from Owen Mcshane’s posting near the top of the thread.
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August 7, 2008 10:30am
dave strings

RE:

Union hero Arthur Scargill

As a past (thankfully no longer) relative, let me assure you that Arthur is a legend in his own mind, but no hero of the Union leaders in the UK. No one did more to bring down the power and influence of the unions over there than Arthur – to the point where he is an undesirable even at the Railway Workers annual Burns night party (which, believe it or not, even I – a raging rightie in the eyes of the union movement over there – still get invited to 20 years after leaving the country!)
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August 7, 2008 11:11am
philu

phil-the-inferior..!

..are you a nom-de-blog of mcshanes’..”

..if not..

..could you both just..’get a room!’..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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August 7, 2008 11:30am
riki

why isn’t Roger Gnome in here fervently obsessing against the great Alexander Solzhenitsyn.

If there was ever a case to speak up for socialism, it would be against this icon and hero.

Also,,

“Brit types, forget it! You don’t understand our culture.”

I just found out today, the Waikato is too loud for brits. Their ears are shocked by the noise pollution trapped in the Waikato valley and they don’t get used to it.

apparently, Britain is far quieter.

so I hear from a Brit.
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August 8, 2008 12:23am
OECD rank 22 kiwi

Great Britain has a lot of positives going for it. Still summer here at the moment. Nice 😉
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August 8, 2008 3:34am
OECD rank 22 kiwi

I still think Roger Douglas has valid ideas about restricting wasteful government spending. I’d rather retain more of my own money than see a government of any hue waste it on pet projects that deliver poor outcomes if they deliver any outcomes at all.
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August 8, 2008 4:58am
expat

riki – you mean the fact that every second car has a milo tin exhaust that breaks most countries noise pollution limits but liarbore and Harry the klutz Minister of Twansporrt has no balls to rectify an obvious policy blunder.

Where are the green priciples on that one? Noise pollution? Oh that doesnt matter because it won’t get Hulun onto a UN board.

More self interested venal liarbore policy.
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August 8, 2008 5:11am
Lipper

Do which are the best areas of the World to pursue active Immigration from?

Australia, Canada, UK or India, Pakistan, Bangladesh or China, Taiwan, Korea or South Africa?

Who’s populace is the most like that of NZ? Who would be most likely to watch the Rugby, and have a beer, and a Barbie?

Just a thought starter. there is no right answer of course!
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August 8, 2008 6:49am
expat

The correct answer is whatever country will gain more kudos in the eyes of the UN for a … position on a UN board for Hulun.
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August 8, 2008 6:55am
expat

>>OECD rank 22 kiwi (413) +0 Says:
August 8th, 2008 at 3:34 am

Great Britain has a lot of positives going for it. Still summer here at the moment. Nice

>>>> Sorry, I’m in the UK and havent noticed a summer as yet. 😉
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August 8, 2008 6:59am
Lipper

No Summer in the North.

Bugga.
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August 8, 2008 7:01am
expat

Its past mid summer and me tomatoes are still green.

On the up side its sunny and hot in the med – have done/will do a few trips out there with the fam for buckets and spades.
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August 8, 2008 7:05am

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