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December 24, 2008 9:27am by David Farrar

General Debate 24 December 2008

Twas the night before Christmas …

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General Debate

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Comments (68)

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Brian Smaller

….and all through the House
not a creature was stirring,
not even Philu, trcargill or Roger nome.
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December 24, 2008 9:34am
billyborker

It must be Xmas as the moaning of Xians reaches an all time high.

GAINESVILLE, Fla. (BP)–Christians need to be “very firm” but not angry in addressing issues like the recent flap in Washington state, where atheists have placed a sign in the rotunda of the state capitol denigrating religion, former presidential Mike Huckabee told the Florida Baptist Witness in an interview Dec. 7.

http://www.sbcbaptistpress.org/BPnews.asp?ID=29554
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December 24, 2008 9:35am
Turpin

Wishing all of you
God’s very greatest Blessings
For yourselves and on all whom you love and care for
That applies to all your businesses too 🙂
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December 24, 2008 9:38am
jarbury

To think that Huckabee was a presidential candidate…. hmmm….
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December 24, 2008 9:40am
billyborker

And Xmas rushes on, Newspapers abandon all attempts at providing news and truthful anaylis, handing their comments pages over to the purveyors of the biggest lie ever sold.
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December 24, 2008 9:40am
Bok

You know what borker, I dont buy the whole christmas story etc, But what a sad little shit you are, for having to come out with this sad and feeble attempt at putting down people for what they believe. No wonder you molest young boys and beat up woman. Your life is just so empty without it… is it not. merry Christmas dogturd.
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December 24, 2008 9:54am
Glutaemus Maximus

The biggest lie that Billy Borker is compus mentis!

What a plank.

Like anyone cares what the rearguard of the Socialist Dogma Squad really think.

You have no power, and every week more bad news is uncovered about the failed socialist experiment.

Boo Hoo to you
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December 24, 2008 9:57am
big bruv

A very merry Christmas to you DPF, this site give most of us a lot of pleasure during the year and I would like to take this opportunity of wishing you all the best for both Christmas and the New Year.

Actually I would like to wish everybody who considerer’s themselves to be part of the Kiwiblog family a great Christmas, stay safe and well and lets look forward to doing battle again in the new year.

My kindest regards to you all.
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December 24, 2008 10:02am
joeAverage

I see the little bashed baby in Kerikeri has died, This sounds like another case we ALL know. Noisy parties, no natural birth father around,mother probably has a (boyfriend) young or old i presume, and the bastards will probably stay silient, oh dear :(i say, shot the feral barstards) these cretins are products of a system Billy Bonker wants a return to
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December 24, 2008 10:06am
dave strings

Big bruv

You too

Merry Xmas and a profitable and prosperous new year to all.
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December 24, 2008 10:07am
billyborker

Bok (380) Vote: 1 1 Says:

December 24th, 2008 at 9:54 am
You know what borker, I dont buy the whole christmas story etc, But what a sad little shit you are, for having to come out with this sad and feeble attempt at putting down people for what they believe.

When “what people believe”, ie the lies and myths of religion, is used as the basis to attack human rights, it is anything but sad to point out the stupidity that abounds at this time of the year. As for child molestation, I leave that to the Catholic priests, and the All Blacks have shown themselves far better beaters of women than I could ever hope to be.
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December 24, 2008 10:09am
expat

Righto, enough bork bork borking.

Christmas dinner – beast of choice to roast/bbq?

1) Pheasants.

You?
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December 24, 2008 10:12am
big bruv

Expat

Rolled loin of pork (free range and home kill)
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December 24, 2008 10:14am
dave strings

Turkey (stuffed with lemons while roasting to maintan moistness)

IF warm – with Salad

IF cold (like right now!) with roast potatoes, boiled potatoes, mashed potatoes, carrot mixed with turnip, pork sausages wrapped in streaky bacon, sage & onion and mashed potatoe stuffing, cauliflower with lashings of stilton cheese sauce, a litre of chewey shiraz and a bubble of brandy to finish. Then feet up, Lizzies speech and a quiet snore before she gets to the bit about the common debt (used to be common wealth, but times have changed!)
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December 24, 2008 10:17am
Pita

“When “what people believe”, ie the lies and myths of religion, is used as the basis to attack human rights”

Sounds like AGW to me. What say you Bork…have you embraced that lie?
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December 24, 2008 10:18am
dad4justice

“As for child molestation, I leave that to the Catholic priests, and the All Blacks have shown themselves far better beaters of women than I could ever hope to be.”

What a disgraceful sentence on the eve of Christmas. You are an insult to Oxford billywanker.
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December 24, 2008 10:21am
Bok

Expat
In heat of Australia = a delightful cold picnic with plenty of bubbly
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December 24, 2008 10:25am
Adam

Prawns & Crayfish followed by loads of champagne and mummy’s Christmas pud . Merry Christmas all.
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December 24, 2008 10:26am
Rakaia George

Roast goose please…I’m still adjusting to summer Christmas.

This particular atheist would like to wish everyone a very happy Christmas, or Yule or Saturnalia if you still subscribe to an earlier branding of the Northern Winter festivities!
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December 24, 2008 10:35am
PinkGina

May the sun shine down on everything kiwibloggers do over the festive season

And DPF, thanks for the daily thought provoking, it was an amazing year and next looks like being even more so

Merry Xmas all
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December 24, 2008 10:49am
william

Thankyou DPF for providing the infomation, the forum and the humour this year.

Your efforts do make a difference.

In the words of Dave Allen , may your God go with you.
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December 24, 2008 11:06am
baxter

I see the little bashed baby in Kerikeri has died, ……..Clark and Liabour’s secular legacy of family destruction.
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December 24, 2008 11:13am
Owen McShane

First, a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year and may next year be rewarding in every way.
Some Entertainment – and some best wishes for the New Year.

The Note Bene column on the back page of the Times Literary Supplement runs an occasional series titled “Annals of Incomprehensibility” to remind us “that a written English sentence exists in order to be understood by other English speakers”. The 12 December Annal reprints a sentence which “purports to be written in English but which we propose is incomprehensible to all but a few” and comes from “Coincidence and Counterfactuality: Plotting time and space in narrative fiction”, a text by Hilary P. Dannenberg, published by the University of Nebraska.

The chosen sentence reads (using the word loosely):
“Historical counterfactuals in narrative fiction frequently take an ontologically different form in which the counterfactual premise engenders a whole narrative world instead of being limited to hypothetical inserts embedded in the main world of the narrative text.”

Ms Dannenberg’s text discusses a number of classic novels including Tom Jones, by Henry Fielding, an author notable for his pithy prose and such famous quotes such as:

It is widely held that too much wine will dull a man’s desire. Indeed it will – in a dull man.

We are all as God made us, and many of us much worse.

Rouse yourself from this pastoral torpor, sir!

It is surely remarkable that Ms Dannenberg can write such incomprehensible prose about such a comprehensible novel.

Note Bene’s author then asks:
“Let’s say you intend to read that work over the festive period. Does it help to know that ‘Externally focused counterfactuals are a significant part of the over heterodiegetic narratorial style’. Does it hinder? The answer is, neither. It merely adds to the annals of incomprehensibility.”

He concludes:
“Just think; someone read the book and endorsed its publication, someone edited it, someone else set it in type, designed a cover, compiled an index, read the proofs – yet hardly anyone can understand what’s in it.”

Which is fair enough, but maybe more to the point, many parents spent a good part of their life savings paying for their children to attend the the University of Nebraska to be exposed to such twaddle. And no doubt the Nebraska State government allocated taxpayers funds to subsidise this lecturer’s pontifications before those young and eager minds.

It need not be that way.

In 1969 when Professor Mel Webber (of the College of Environmental Design) was encouraging me to accept Professor Aaron Wildavsky’s invitation to join the Oakland Project in the School of Public Policy, he handed me a selection of Aaron’s essays and papers.

The first one I picked up began “The Democrats feel bad. They’ve got those empty egg-head blues.”

That wonderful opening line clinched it for me, and set me on a new direction, including a crash course in Urban Development Economics, which meant I soon became more concerned about researching “How cities work” rather than having visions about “How they should look.

We have all had these special turning points in our lives, and I hope that 2009 provides all the Centre’s supporters and readers with some similarly rewarding life-changing experience of your own.

Merry Christmas and a Happy and Fruitful New Year!
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December 24, 2008 11:22am
jarbury

Useful insights into Xmas traditions from the herald: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/lifestyle/news/article.cfm?c_id=6&objectid=10549639&pnum=0
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December 24, 2008 11:38am
Lee

“When “what people believe”, ie the lies and myths of religion,”

Using the term “religion” is meaningless. All worldviews are a form of religion, and everyone has a worldview, you included. So which worldview/religion specifically are you talking about? Islam? Hinduism? Christianity? Marxism? Liberalism? Secularism?

“is used as the basis to attack human rights”

If there is no God, there is no objective right and wrong. If there is no objective right and wrong, then what is your idea of human rights based upon?
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December 24, 2008 11:53am
Scott

Well spotted jarbury-a very interesting and informative article.
Best wishes to everyone for the Christmas season. And remember the reason for the season — Jesus is the saviour of the world .
Food is great but spiritual food is even better.
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December 24, 2008 11:55am
MT_Tinman

As I chew on my traditional cheese and marmite sandwich prior to going out for my traditional 12-13 hours work tomorrow I shall think of you all.

Yeah right.

Eat heaps, drink more and have fun.

And for christs sake keep the god-botherers away from me.
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December 24, 2008 12:03pm
Ryan Sproull

Using the term “religion” is meaningless.

Religion. noun.
The belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods… A particular system of faith and worship.
(Oxford)

All religions are worldviews, but not all worldviews are religions.
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December 24, 2008 12:05pm
Lee

“All religions are worldviews, but not all worldviews are religions.”

Of course they are. All worldviews believe in some kind of higher power. All worldviews worship something. All worldviews engage in forms of ritual.

The Soviet Union believed in the higher power of history (the inevitability of working class revolution and triumph), worshiped the state, and engaged in regular ritualised worship of the state. They also believed in a future life/world in which paradise would be achieved.

Take any worldview you care to name, and I can show you how it is in fact a religion.
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December 24, 2008 12:14pm
Ryan Sproull

Take any worldview you care to name, and I can show you how it is in fact a religion.

Pure materialism? The laws of physics aren’t “higher” in the sense implied in the definition, and I’m not aware of any pure materialists worshipping anything.
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December 24, 2008 12:17pm
Lee

“Pure materialism?”

The “pure” materialist worships the universe (or creation). Richard Dawkins, the supposed “atheist”, is a good example of this. He believes, along with other pure materialists, that the universe has always (eternally) existed. That it is “all there ever was and all there ever will be”. World without end, amen.

Worship is often a subtle thing. It does not always, or even mostly, involve obvious religious ritual. Nevertheless all people do it in one way or another. Addictions are a good example of this. Whatever a person is addicted to, it is that they turn into an idol and worship.
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December 24, 2008 12:23pm
labrator

Merry christmas all and a happy new year. Two weeks without the internet, joy of joys!
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December 24, 2008 12:25pm
david

Keep safe everyone
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December 24, 2008 12:53pm
Political Busker

Merry Christ-mass all – 2008 was but usa and down unda compulsive gas when compared to 2009. Best of the New Year: God bless – The Political Busker (of a) father’s coalition.
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December 24, 2008 12:55pm
Ryan Sproull

The “pure” materialist worships the universe (or creation). Richard Dawkins, the supposed “atheist”, is a good example of this. He believes, along with other pure materialists, that the universe has always (eternally) existed. That it is “all there ever was and all there ever will be”. World without end, amen.

Worship is often a subtle thing. It does not always, or even mostly, involve obvious religious ritual. Nevertheless all people do it in one way or another. Addictions are a good example of this. Whatever a person is addicted to, it is that they turn into an idol and worship.

I think that you are stretching the use of the word “worship” well beyond anything most people would recognise by its meaning. Believing something has always existed does not entail worshipping it.
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December 24, 2008 1:12pm
kiwipolemicist

The best thing about christmas is that all the politicians retreat to their caves and spend time with their fellow Orcs.

http://www.kiwipolemicist.wordpress.com
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December 24, 2008 1:15pm
bringbackthebiff

Merry Xmas to you all. I am back in NZ for a quiet xmas with family. Watching Breakfast this morning reminded me why I left for Oz and why I’m not rushing back. The leftist media with its Labour apologists can’t let up even on xmas eve, so I will do in kind. When asked about the significant events of 08, the biarch commentator they have on this show complained that we had a govt hell bent on privatising ACC, and introducing draconian labour laws. I just wished she woulf f#$k off and die. So much for my xmas spirit.

My best wishes to all here and I hope that the new year will bring more change for the betterment of Kiwis.

Oh and if Philu reads this. I remember quoting from Disturbeds title track from their album indestructable. That twat made all kinds of derogatory remarks. Well screw you Phil, because the election was a war you and your scumbag mates couldn’t win.

Cheers
BBTB
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December 24, 2008 2:23pm
baxter

Sex attack accused bailed for Christmas
10:00AM Wednesday Dec 24, 2008

A man accused of indecently assaulting a 99-year-old in her Palmerston North home will spend Christmas with his family while the woman remains in hospital, six weeks after the alleged attack.(excerpt from the herald)

So a merry christmas for him, not sure about his family, none for the old dear in hospital. On the other hand we are all safe from Bruce EMERY a middle aged man of no previous convictions until he was provoked into stabbing a serial tagger. No bail or xmas with the family for him. You wouldn’t want to weigh anything of value on the scales of justice in this nation.
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December 24, 2008 3:25pm
billyborker

Baxter, note the word “accused”; you even typed it. Accused does not equal guilt, and as many on here keep saying, the police don’t always get it right. (Just ask dad4justice).

As for Bruce Emery, why should being middle aged and having no previous convictions make him innocent? A jury of his peers found him guilty.

They had the opportunity to weigh all the evidence, something you haven’t done, unless you were there.

You might not like it, but the rule of law applies to middle aged murderers too.
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December 24, 2008 3:30pm
dad4justice

you are one sick unit Phillip John.
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December 24, 2008 3:34pm
billyborker

Lee (600) Vote: 2 0 Says:

December 24th, 2008 at 11:53 am

If there is no God, there is no objective right and wrong. If there is no objective right and wrong, then what is your idea of human rights based upon?

bullfuckingshit.

There are some worthwhile principles in The Bible, as well as some abhorrent ones. The Bible was written by men trying to explain existence. It is not divinely inspired, it is not the word of god(s). It is simply the work of Man.

Over millenia Mankind has worked out what works and what doesn’t, established some useful rules and guidlines and generally done a reasonable job of civilising Himself. No god(s) required.
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December 24, 2008 3:44pm
dad4justice

The hateful rhetoric that flows from the nasty gob of billybunker ( Phillip John?) is clear evidence of the existence of evil. God will judge in due time.
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December 24, 2008 3:52pm
chiz

Owen:The chosen sentence reads (using the word loosely):
“Historical counterfactuals in narrative fiction frequently take an ontologically different form in which the counterfactual premise engenders a whole narrative world instead of being limited to hypothetical inserts embedded in the main world of the narrative text.”

I don’t see what the problem is. The sentence, which has clearly been cut from a larger context, is quite clear and undeniably true. If you want to read incomprehensible gibberish then try reading Judith Butler who once won Dennis Dutton’s Bad Academic Prose competition.
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December 24, 2008 3:53pm
billyborker

dad, god will judge nothing. God is dead. Science and reason killed god.

Perhaps for xmas someone will be kind enough to give you a candle so you may see the light and come out from your demon haunted world.
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December 24, 2008 4:00pm
dad4justice

You twisted nutbar.
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December 24, 2008 4:03pm
Lee

billy,

“bullfuckingshit.”

Amazingly enough thats not an argument.

“The Bible was written by men trying to explain existence.”

The problem with that argument is that the narrative structure and language of the Bible do not support your thesis that it is a philosophical document trying to explain anything. If it was what you say that language style and structure would be radically different. For example, read the philosophical works of the ancient greeks. or certain of the Hindu Vedanta scriptures. Ancient documents and scriptures around the world that deal with “trying to explain existence” are written in exactly that style, a questioning style. The Bible on the other hand is not. It is filled with statements such as “God said” or “God did”. About the only book in the Bible that does have a questioning tone is the book of Job, but even there the narrative style is different to other ancient documents dealing with the question and meaning of existence.

The very first words in the Bible, far from “trying to explain existence” as you say, assume certain truths as self-evident. “In the beginning God…”.

Notice that there is no attempt to try and explain God’s existence, or wonder about who God is, or even if He/She exists or not. Nope, the Bible ASSUMES His existence as a matter of course. Again, compare that style to other ancient documents that are trying to explain existence. The difference is striking.

The same with the Biblical prophets. They are filled with statements such as “the Lord said to me” or “the Lord told me”. Again, no attempt at philosophy or explanation here at all.

The people who wrote the Bible believed that they were in a relationship with a real, living God, and thats what they wrote about. Now lets be clear that I am not yet arguing that the Bible is true, or that its writers were right about the God they believed they were relating to and learning from. What I AM saying is that the Bible is NOT a philosophical document in the way that your claiming.

“Over millenia Mankind has worked out what works and what doesn’t, established some useful rules and guidlines and generally done a reasonable job of civilising Himself. No god(s) required.”

There are three problems with this statement.

The first is that it assumes a utilitarian understanding of moral development that does not in fact reflect human history. If such a development were true then we would have worked out long ago that mass murder was wrong. Yet the 20th century alone saw more mass murder, more genocide, and more human rights violations than any time in history. If a trial and error approach to moral/ethical values were a reality, then why is the human race, if anything, worse now than ever?

The second problem is one of fact. With rare exceptions almost ALL human moral systems did in fact reference their systems to a higher power, to a god or gods. So your claim that a trial and error approach to ethics that did not reference god/s is simply not true. Most moral/ethical thinkers throughout history have understood the need for some kind of objective basis for their moral system.

The third problem is the one I challenged you with in my first response. If morality and ethics are merely a matter of trial and error, a matter of “what works”, then on what objective basis do you base your support for your understanding of human rights? Because it can be rightly argued from your utilitarian point of view, that much of what currently passes for “human rights” have no practical value to society. What WOULD be practical would be to kill off the elderly to save money. Would that be the right thing to do? (I don’t think so by the way). But if you don’t then WHY???
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December 24, 2008 4:23pm
Lee

Ryan,

“I think that you are stretching the use of the word “worship” well beyond anything most people would recognise by its meaning.”

No, I am stating what the Bible itself says on the issue. What “most people” today think on the issue does not prove anything one way or another. More importantly, what “most people” today think has been highly coloured by the ideology/religion of secularism, with its artificial distinction between sacred/profane.
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December 24, 2008 4:27pm
Ryan Sproull

No, I am stating what the Bible itself says on the issue. What “most people” today think on the issue does not prove anything one way or another. More importantly, what “most people” today think has been highly coloured by the ideology/religion of secularism, with its artificial distinction between sacred/profane.

You and the Bible know better than people do about what they mean by the words they use?
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December 24, 2008 4:31pm
Lee

“Science and reason killed god.”

This would be the science and reason that inspired both the Nazi’s and the Soviet Communists to murder hundreds of millions of people in the name of scientific racialism and darwinian survival (the Nazis) and scientific materialism (the Soviet Communists).

I’ll take God thanks.

And if God is “dead” then why is secular rationalism in decline? Why do the vast majority of people around the world still believe in God? If God is dead He’s doing a roaring trade.

Also, why do so many scientists themselves believe in God?
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December 24, 2008 4:32pm
Lee

“You and the Bible know better than people do about what they mean by the words they use?”

On this specific issue, yes. Keep in mind that people do not exist in a social/philosophical/cultural vacuum, although they often unaware of their social/philosophical and cultural assumptions
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December 24, 2008 4:37pm
billyborker

Lee (604) 0 1 Says:

December 24th, 2008 at 4:23 pm
billy,

“bullfuckingshit.”

Amazingly enough thats not an argument.

I’ll stand by it being a better argument than

dad4justice (4577) 0 1 Says:

December 24th, 2008 at 4:03 pm
You twisted nutbar.

I didn’t claim Man had reached perfection, simply that Man has reached His current state through experience, and yes, trial and error. there is still some error.

Yes, the twentieth century was bloody, but that is neither an argument against rationalism, or one for god(s).

And if secular rationalism is on such a decline, why do muslims and their xtian hangers on want to subvert the UDHR and make “defamation of religion” a crime? Just why are they afraid of having their beliefs questioned?
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December 24, 2008 4:46pm
Ryan Sproull

On this specific issue, yes. Keep in mind that people do not exist in a social/philosophical/cultural vacuum, although they often unaware of their social/philosophical and cultural assumptions

I’ve never had much luck in arguing that I know what people mean better than they themselves do.

It’s very similar to the argument, “You may think you believe in God, but deep down, you don’t.”
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December 24, 2008 4:47pm
billyborker

Lee (604) 0 1 Says:

December 24th, 2008 at 4:32 pm

Also, why do so many scientists themselves believe in God?

I don’t know, perhaps you can ask them. Maybe they are the lesser ones. I mena, you’re not going to hold Michael Behe up as a worthwhile scientist, are you? Or perhaps, like Ian Wishart, you think Ben Stein has a valid scientific viewpoint?
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December 24, 2008 4:53pm
billyborker

Lee (604) 1 1 Says:

December 24th, 2008 at 4:32 pm
“Science and reason killed god.”

This would be the science and reason that inspired both the Nazi’s and the Soviet Communists to murder hundreds of millions of people in the name of scientific racialism and darwinian survival (the Nazis) and scientific materialism (the Soviet Communists).

Actually, the pageantry of Nazism and the worship of Hitler has a lot more in common with religion than it does with secular humanism. Hitler, and many of his cohort, were xtians, not humanists.

The USSR under Stalin and beyond was again a state subject to the cult of personality, no different to that of, say Jesus or Buddha. Different outcomes, same principles.

“With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. ”
Steven Weinberg, quoted in The New York Times, April 20, 1999

Its not that long ago that the church killed those who dared question it. The church’s power was broken and the rule of law provided protection for dissenting voices. If the church was returned to its former position of power, do you think it would act any differently? In fact, how many American presidential candidates are brave enough to refute god? None, because in the US, atheism is political suicide, beyond the pale, so to speak.
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December 24, 2008 4:59pm
Lee

Billy,

fair enough, but I’m not dad4justice, I’m respecting both you and your arguments.

“I didn’t claim Man had reached perfection”

I never said you did. What I am trying to point out is that you are claiming a utilitarian and progressive understanding of moral development. On that basis, human ethical behaviour SHOULD be getting better, slowly but surely. But it seems to me that it is not, and that in fact the 20th century seems to strongly suggest that it is getting worse.

“Yes, the twentieth century was bloody, but that is neither an argument against rationalism, or one for god(s).”

Its not an argument FOR rationalism either. My point was that it IS an argument against progressive ethical development.

“why do muslims and their xtian hangers on want to subvert the UDHR and make “defamation of religion” a crime?”

I cannot speak for Muslims and would not care to. However, MOST Christians I know are not in favour of making “defamation of religion” a crime. I am sure you can find some examples, but I can assure you that they are a minority. (there are other problems with the UDHR, but thats another issue).

“Just why are they afraid of having their beliefs questioned?”

Most Christians I know LOVE having their beliefs questioned. It gives us the perfect opportunity to witness to others. Many famous Christians throughout history have lived their lives rationally and respectfully dealing with Challenges and questions to their beliefs. In our time C.S. Lewis, Nicky Gumble and Timothy Keller, amongst many others have written books that happily deal with such questions.

Nicky Gumble is a good case in point. He is the author of many books, especially “Questions of Life”, that are based on taking questions about Christianity seriously. He is also the creator of the Alpha program, based on his book, that invites anyone to come along and ask all the questions they want.
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December 24, 2008 5:05pm
Ryan Sproull

“You are like Hitler.”

“No, you are like Hitler.”

“You are.”

“No, you are.”

“You’re a vegetarian, JUST LIKE HITLER.”

“Oh yeah? Well, you don’t like smoking, AND NEITHER DID HITLER.”

I’m off. Have a safe and enjoyable Christmas with good food, friends and family, everyone.
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December 24, 2008 5:07pm
billyborker

lee, is this how you see jesus/god?

Hello, my name is Jesus. I love you deeply. I have loved you since you were conceived in the womb and I will love you for all eternity. I died for you on the cross because I love you so much. I long to have a loving personal relationship with you. I will answer all of your prayers through my love.
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December 24, 2008 5:17pm
Lee

“Actually, the pageantry of Nazism and the worship of Hitler has a lot more in common with religion than it does with secular humanism.”

Which supports my point that ALL worldviews, including the Nazi’s, are a form of religion.

“Hitler, and many of his cohort, were xtians, not humanists.”

Sorry but untrue. They were in fact revivalist Pagans who wanted to restore the worship of the old Germanic gods. That said, if you read Richard Evans history of Nazism (he’s not a Christian), he clearly shows that the Nazi’s racial and eugenics ideology was based firmly on the scientific and “rational” understand of the time.

?The USSR under Stalin and beyond was again a state subject to the cult of personality, no different to that of, say Jesus or Buddha. Different outcomes, same principles.”

Not really. Under Stalin yes, but the Soviet Union after Stalin had no cult of personality, but still commited horrific crimes. And again, it kinda proves my point that if humans reject God, they will simply replace Him with an idol.

“But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. ””

The problem with that quote is that history is replete with non-religious “good” people doing evil things. Many “good” non-religious doctors are quite happy to murder children in the womb.

“Its not that long ago that the church killed those who dared question it. ”

Thats a massive overstatement to say the least. Sometimes it did, sometimes it did not. But again I can show you many examples of modern “non-religious” ideologies that do the same. Remember Tianenman square when some Chinese people tried to question the secular rationalist state?

” The church’s power was broken and the rule of law provided protection for dissenting voices.””

In actual fact it was not the rule of law (which by the way was established by the Church) but the Protestant Reformation, a Christian religious movement based on the Bible, that provided the principles of freedom of conscience and freedom.

“In fact, how many American presidential candidates are brave enough to refute god?”

Most simply do not want to because they believe in God in the first place. It is simply a fact that the US is a very religious country, so atheists are not generally respected. Thats fine by me, but it does not prove your point. Because atheists are not being killed in the US either are they?
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December 24, 2008 5:22pm
Lee

“lee, is this how you see jesus/god?

Hello, my name is Jesus. I love you deeply. I have loved you since you were conceived in the womb and I will love you for all eternity. I died for you on the cross because I love you so much. I long to have a loving personal relationship with you. I will answer all of your prayers through my love.”

Yes.
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December 24, 2008 5:25pm
chiz

Lee:This would be the science and reason that inspired both the Nazi’s and the Soviet Communists to murder hundreds of millions of people in the name of scientific racialism and darwinian survival (the Nazis) and scientific materialism (the Soviet Communists).

I’ll take God thanks.

Somewhere between 20 and 50 million people died during the Taiping rebellion. If the upper estimates are true that would mean a higher death toll than Hitler and Stalin combined. All because Hong Xiuquan was convinced that he was Jesus’s brother.

Also, why do so many scientists themselves believe in God?

‘Many’ is not the same as ‘most’. Some scientists are racists and one Nobel laureate was a paedophile. Some scientists also suppert Marxism or deny that AIDS is caused by a virus. The fact that some scientists are christians doesn’t really establish anything.

That said, if you read Richard Evans history of Nazism (he’s not a Christian), he clearly shows that the Nazi’s racial and eugenics ideology was based firmly on the scientific and “rational” understand of the time.

Not true. There was a book that came out about a year or so ago – I don’t remember its title – about Nazi science. It wasn’t any such thing. All this aryan stuff and many other things they believed were pure laugh-out-loud-funny pseudoscience.
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December 24, 2008 5:34pm
billyborker

Lee, do you also accept the follow on –

Hello, my name is Jesus. I love you deeply. I have loved you since you were conceived in the womb and I will love you for all eternity. I died for you on the cross because I love you so much. I long to have a loving personal relationship with you. I will answer all of your prayers through my love. But if you do not get down on your knees and worship me, and if you do not EAT MY BODY and DRINK MY BLOOD, then I WILL INCINERATE YOU WITH UNIMAGINABLY TORTUOUS PAIN IN THE FIRES OF HELL FOR ALL ETERNITY BWAH HA HA HA HA HA!
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December 24, 2008 5:48pm
JimBWarrior

Science and reason did Kill the God of their understanding and thus they think they became God
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December 24, 2008 6:00pm
Rex Widerstrom

Well, rather than debate theology (I’ll have plenty of time to do that when I put aside my hermit-like existence to have Christmas with my religious business partner and his family (I’m only slightly nervous that the fire they’re building isn’t for the spit roast at all, but rather for me 😯 )) I’ll instead interpret the title of this post as an invitation to continue the tradition I began last year:

‘Twas the night before Christmas and far as one could see,
Most people were happy under the reign of John Key.

Sure, the banks were all failing, taking with them our money;
Yet no bankers were in jail, which is kinda funny*.

The stockmarket’s entire capital worth
Had turned out as plausible as any virgin birth.

Winston had vanished without paying us back
But no one was interested, not one single hack.

The jingling of tills has grown ever more faint;
As everyone’s spending has come under constraint.

We’re told the world’s warming and we’re all to blame;
Yet the outlook for Christmas in NZ is still rain.

Cockeyed laws are still rushing through Parl’ment with haste,
Seems one set of idiots with another we’ve replaced.

Yet Kiwis are smiling as their barbeques wash out,
Their savings all vanish and their gardens don’t sprout.

Coz, all ‘cross the land folk are heard to remark
“Least we’re rid of those smug bastards, Cullen and Clark”.

* funny peculiar, that is.
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December 24, 2008 6:11pm
Steve

You all forgot something.
Merry Christmas to David Farrah for Kiwiblog. A most enjoyable year.

Don’t feed the Trolls, they won’t go away.
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December 24, 2008 6:57pm
Buggerlugs

Just reading all the crap that borker the dorker and others write, i did wonder if you have a list of the best and the worst comments voting, DPF? I’m picking sonic or nome at the top for the -ves…
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December 24, 2008 7:41pm
Viking2

Funny you should mention Winston Raymond Peter’s. Came across this in the Aussie press and wondered if a certain gentleman had purchased a present for this lady. Isn’t mentioned but we still haven’t got our money back and no one has seen him.

Kings of Jordan and Saudi Arabia give Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice expensive jewellery
Article from: The Australian

From correspondents in Washington

December 24, 2008 01:21am

US President George W.Bush’s foreign policies may be unpopular in the Middle East, but Arab leaders showered the top US diplomat with jewelery worth far more than a quarter of a million dollars last year.

While Mr Bush himself did not fare nearly as well, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice raked in at least $US316,000 in gem-encrusted baubles from the kings of Jordan and Saudi Arabia alone, making her one of the top recipients of gifts from foreign heads of state in 2007.

In January, Jordan’s King Abdullah II gave Dr Rice an emerald and diamond necklace, ring, bracelet and earrings estimated to be worth $US147,000, according to the State Department’s annual inventory of such items released yesterday.

The king and Queen Rania also gave Dr Rice a less expensive necklace and earrings along with a jewellery box valued at $4630, the document shows.

Not to be outdone, King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia presented Dr Rice with a ruby and diamond necklace with matching earrings, bracelet and ring worth $US165,000 in July.

The inventory includes a $US170,000 flower petal motif necklace the Saudi monarch gave Dr Rice in 2005.
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December 24, 2008 7:45pm
Angus

“It must be Xmas as the moaning of Xians reaches an all time high”

Fuck off back to tbr.cc Fugley
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December 24, 2008 10:39pm
Lee

chiz,

“Somewhere between 20 and 50 million people died during the Taiping rebellion.”

Thats not that many more than were killed by both fascism and communism if you take total deaths. So really all this proves is that people do bad things, and if you take out religion it makes no difference to that. People will use any excuse if they want to do bad things. Take away religion, and they will replace it with something else, Nazism, Marxism, even human “rights”. How many millions of innocent defenseless children have been brutally murdered in the name of feminism?

“‘Many’ is not the same as ‘most’.”

How do you know? Do you have figures on how many scientists believe in God? The point I made is that many do and it MAY be most which disproves Billy’s claim that science and faith are incompatible.

“Not true. There was a book that came out about a year or so ago – I don’t remember its title – about Nazi science. It wasn’t any such thing. All this aryan stuff and many other things they believed were pure laugh-out-loud-funny pseudoscience.”

Sorry but it is true and provable so. “NazI” science was in fact the science of the day and was taken seriously around the world. Racial eugenics were very widespread. International Family Planning was, and still is, based on it. Moreover the most enthusiastic proponents of it were the Swedish Socialists. Whether it was good science or not, it WAS the accepted science of the day.

The fact remains that scientific eugenics was, at the time, considered good science and rational, and it was accepted as so by most scientists of the day as such. Which, again, proves my point that Billy’s claim that what currently, at any time, passes for science and reason are not trustworthy as moral guides or guides to absolute truth, let alone the laughable silliness he trotted out that science has “killed” God.

At the end of the day, all science does is count things. Nothing more. Its a useful tool, but a horrifying master. It was modern science and scientists, not religion, that invented the ability to destroy the world through nuclear and environmental annihilation. It is science that has brought us close to extinction, science that invented the nuclear bomb, science that brought us the Bhopal and Chernobyl horrors, science that gave us man made pandemics, science that made the Holocaust possible, and science that gave us the mass murder of children through abortion.

Again, I’ll take God thanks.

Billy,

“But if you do not get down on your knees and worship me, and if you do not EAT MY BODY and DRINK MY BLOOD, then I WILL INCINERATE YOU WITH UNIMAGINABLY TORTUOUS PAIN IN THE FIRES OF HELL FOR ALL ETERNITY BWAH HA HA HA HA HA!”

Nope, because the Bible says no such thing. And please don’t embarrass yourself by quoting the passage of Scripture I know your thinking of, because you re-wrote it (convenient huh) and clearly do not understand what it is saying. If you have to resort to telling lies about the Christian Faith, then it proves my initial opinion that your just trolling and insulting peoples faith for fun, but that you have no rational, informed or educated basis to do so, and your sufficiently ignorant of the reality of Christian beliefs that you really have no right to comment on them.

Oh, and the Bible says nothing about “UNIMAGINABLY TORTUOUS PAIN” in Hell. It does say that Hell is a form of suffering, because it involves separation from God, but it never says that people are tortured there. If you cannot tell the difference between medieval cultural myth and what the Bible actually says, then again, your too ignorant of the subject you chose to attack people on to have the right to an opinion on that subject.
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December 25, 2008 7:24pm

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