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January 28, 2009 7:35am by David Farrar

General Debate 28 January 2009

I’m in a meeting all day so not many posts until tonight.

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General Debate

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Comments (148)

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Ross Miller

My preferred beer is Becks. On the back of that bottle (and quite of number of other ’boutique beers) is the inscription “5c refund if returned to a Depot in SA” (South Australia).

Question … who pays for that, the Importer or the SA Government?

My wife is an avid recycler. I could become one too with that sort of incentive.
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January 28, 2009 5:30pm
davidp

Llew>Hey waitaminnit David, didn’t he go to war to preserve the Union? He was against slavery, but compromised by offering that states who already had slavery could keep it. The South took the war to Lincoln by attacking Fort Sumter in 1861..

Fair points. War almost always has multiple motives. The Iraq invasion had about a dozen, of which one was unseating Saddam. Altho the nut job anti-Bush left would have you believe that finding WMDs was the ONLY reason ever discussed. So Lincoln had multiple motives too, and prioritised the pragmatic over the idealistic. The offer you mention is similar to the compromises that Bush offered Afghanistan and Iraq… hand over bin Laden or unseat Saddam and there will be no invasion. None of the compromises offered by either Bush or Lincoln were likely to be acceptable ones. The similarities between the strategies employed strengthen my comparison of the two men, IMHO.

But the South attacked Fort Sumter and Lincoln responded with full scale civil war? That was completely disproportionate! Did Lincoln face international condemnation by people who believed that the South had the right to keep slaves and that Lincoln shouldn’t interfere in their internal affairs, and that the North shouldn’t overreact when the South kills Northern soldiers?
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January 28, 2009 5:36pm
davidp

Ross M>On the back of that bottle (and quite of number of other ’boutique beers) is the inscription “5c refund if returned to a Depot in SA” (South Australia).

Collect enough, and you could drop them off in person and have a free holiday in SA.
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January 28, 2009 5:40pm
Rex Widerstrom

Ross Miller: It’ll soon be 10 cents. It seems the consumer pays the extra levy on top of the purchase price and gets it back when they recycle. I guess that’s why some bottles refer to it as a “deposit”.

Presumably the levy doesn’t apply in other states, but the exchange rate difference means you’re probably paying more than Australians for your beer anyway.

Thus the plan is to emigrate to anywhere but SA, drink vast quantities of beer, then take the empties across the border to SA and bingo – instant riches 😀
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January 28, 2009 5:56pm
dad4justice

The news is great , gang murder after fucking murder. Gangs should eliminated tomorrow!! Smash the scum and save New Zealand.
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January 28, 2009 6:05pm
MyNameIsJack

Sorry Ross, but the Container deposit Legislation only applies to containers sold in South Australia, not elsewhere.

That piece of legislation has now been around for some 20 years, and is the reason why you see so few beer or softdrink bottles or cans on SA roadsides. Almost as soon as you finish your beer, someone wants the bottle for the deposit. A great piece of legislation that works exactly as intended.
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January 28, 2009 6:05pm
Patrick Starr

“Question … who pays for that, the Importer or the SA Government?”

The consumer pays it in the price of the drink. The money is kept in a by the govt and paid out to ‘super collectors’ who collect thru kerbside recycling and automated reverse deposit vending machines.

It was proposed here but Coca Cola and the NZ Packaging council sabotaged it. It’s a great scheme and would take literally millions of dollars off your council rates bill if it was introduced here
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January 28, 2009 6:12pm
davidp

MNIJ>That piece of legislation has now been around for some 20 years, and is the reason why you see so few beer or softdrink bottles or cans on SA roadsides. Almost as soon as you finish your beer, someone wants the bottle for the deposit.

A drunk person would really hang on to an empty beer bottle because of 5 cents? 5 cents! Even at a minimum wage of about $15 an hour or so, that only represents about 10 seconds of work. It wouldn’t be cost effective to slip the empty in to a backpack, let alone haul it back to a supermarket.

Unless South Australians are the Australian equivalent of those Filipinos you see clambering over giant piles of rubbish, of course. It wouldn’t surprise me… humans always come in a poor second to the environment when Greens get involved.
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January 28, 2009 6:20pm
Patrick Starr

davidp. It’s true the average punter doesn’t worry about the 5cents. It mainly provides a huge source of revenue to local councils to pay for the kerbside collections (instaed of the ratepayers) and also to charity organisations (bottle drives)

The one thing you really notice with CDL is big reduction of roadside litter. It was proposed here at either 10 or 20 cents

The company pushing its introduction is Envision NZ Ltd.
http://www.envision-nz.com
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January 28, 2009 6:30pm
Banana Llama

The news is great , gang murder after fucking murder. Gangs should eliminated tomorrow!! Smash the scum and save New Zealand.

It is getting pretty bad, murders and violence in general, the question is now when you see a member of the public being attacked by these thugs do you try to step in unarmed or wait 15-30 minutes for the cops to arrive. I don’t expect the brain dead gang members to have a long memory and remember what happened down in Hawkes Bay when a car load of Mongrel Mob was molotoved by angry residents of a community.
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January 28, 2009 6:41pm
joeAverage

Hi did anyone notice the TV3 news tonight,our partners, the MAORI seemed to be the news??? rampage and murder, gang patches and bashing,Maybe our liberal posters can explain to me , why so few of our population ,are such wasters, ie raping ,kid killing.patch wearing FUCKWITS to put it politely, the court is yours , PS REMEMBER DONT step into a altercation to help a maori lady when a brave patched maori is giving the bitch the bash ,if you love your family and kids , 🙁
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January 28, 2009 6:51pm
wreck1080

Since they track maori health statistics, I think they should also track maori crime rates.

I’d imagine crime would be pretty low in this country if you remove maori/polynesian offending.
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January 28, 2009 7:27pm
maurieo

I recall that we had a bottle deposit scheme here in NZ some many years ago. It was when we had glass bottles with crown seals. Empties were returned to the local dairy for cash. I recall some local lads pinching the empties from the back of the local dairy and claiming the deposit time and time again.
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January 28, 2009 7:29pm
GJ

Absolute waste of time trying to ban gangs it would only strengthen them. We have missed the boat with years of PC rubbish and forgotten that parents should be training their children as they grow up. This encludes teaching right from wrong and setting good boundries that when they step outside of them they receive discipline or punishment.
Far to many young people today have never had to live within boundaries and society is paying a huge price for it. A big part of the problem is that many parents don’t even know themselves what these boundaries should be and that is devastating and very sad.
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January 28, 2009 8:11pm
Steve

maurieo (21) Vote: 1 0 Says:

January 28th, 2009 at 7:29 pm
I recall that we had a bottle deposit scheme here in NZ some many years ago. It was when we had glass bottles with crown seals. Empties were returned to the local dairy for cash. I recall some local lads pinching the empties from the back of the local dairy and claiming the deposit time and time again.

Yes and beer bottles as well. 1/2 penny for the bottle and sixpence for the crate.
We knew how to recycle without being taxed for doing so!
Now:
Think about this: green recycle bins that we put out containing glass, cans, plastics; all provided by the Council.
Great! The Council charges Rates + GST for this.
It all goes to the fund to provide free lunches for the North Shore Shitty Council.
Pity I miss out on a free lunch.
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January 28, 2009 8:21pm
big bruv

GJ

But but but but..ending smacking and stopping the strap/cane in schools was going to stop all this violence…

Where did it all go so horribly wrong?????????????????????????????????////
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January 28, 2009 8:28pm
Simon

If you liked the Harry Potter movies this prequel is just great.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8gD5iUrRS0
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January 28, 2009 8:30pm
greenfly

Banana Llama said: “It is getting pretty bad, murders and violence…”

Worse under the new government, is it Banana? Perhaps the murderous and the violent aren’t cowed by the NActs puffed-up pontificating. We were led to believe that we’d have a brighter future with the new hard line crew. No sign of that yet. Big Bruv would like to increase the incidence of violence by strapping and caning children. Brighter indeed!
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January 28, 2009 8:41pm
Patrick Starr

Steve.
“green recycle bins that we put out containing glass, cans, plastics; all provided by the Council. Great! The Council charges Rates + GST for this. It all goes to the fund to provide free lunches for the North Shore Shitty Council.”

I wonder who is collecting your green crate? North Shore council use a blue and yellow wheelie bin
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January 28, 2009 8:47pm
big bruv

Greenfly

At what stage do the left admit that they have failed a generation of kids by turning them into lawless idiots?

What price are you guys prepared to pay to see your stupid ideas destroy the fabric of our society?

A vast proportion of this generation is lost and the blame can be sheeted right back to your stupid left wing ideology and the best you can come up with is sarcasm?

Thank god the people of NZ voted for tougher sentences and tougher policing, hopefully we can repair the damage caused by you people over the next nine years.
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January 28, 2009 9:13pm
Patrick Starr

“a generation of kids by turning them into lawless idiots” in hoodies Big Bruv, – remember the sponsor!
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January 28, 2009 9:15pm
Steve

Patrick Starr (1477) Vote: 0 0 Says:

January 28th, 2009 at 8:47 pm
Steve.
“green recycle bins that we put out containing glass, cans, plastics; all provided by the Council. Great! The Council charges Rates + GST for this. It all goes to the fund to provide free lunches for the North Shore Shitty Council.”

I wonder who is collecting your green crate? North Shore council use a blue and yellow wheelie bin

I know what colour they are.
Green was meant in the enviroment context.
It is known as a green bin because before the wheely bins we had green bins, and they were green.
Drainage holes in the bottom, so not to be used as bait bins while out fishing!!!

Stupid people always miss the point, we are asked to recycle and get taxed for doing so.
North Shore Shitty Council is full of idiots.
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January 28, 2009 9:19pm
big bruv

The boy came home with a “hoodie” three days ago Patrick, this morning he asked me if I had seen it, “yes, I have seen it ” I replied, “Ok, so where is it” was the question from the lad, ” I tossed it in the bin like I always told you I would if you wore one of those things into our home” was my answer.

I think he might start talking to me by next Wednesday…ha ha ha
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January 28, 2009 9:22pm
wikiriwhis business

“But the South attacked Fort Sumter and Lincoln responded with full scale civil war?”

No.

The north fired the first shot of the war. Lincoln always wanted a war. He cajoled and bullied the south into defending themselves knowing the vast strength of the north would bear out. As one commentator noted, the north fought that war with one arm tied behind its back.

Lincoln was forcing exorbitant taxes on the south who eventualy refused to pay and declared themselves separate.

Indeed, the south had frinds in France and England, but the US threatened a trade embargo on them and they backed off.

Curiously, Russia supported the north.
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January 28, 2009 9:29pm
Patrick Starr

Steve

“Stupid people always miss the point, we are asked to recycle and get taxed for doing so.
North Shore Shitty Council is full of idiots”

Even more stupid people dont understand the law. Check the Local Govt Act and the Waste Minimistaion 2008 Act. It’s not North Shores choice..
Ummm how do you get taxed for doing so??
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January 28, 2009 9:41pm
Banana Llama

greenfly 8:41 pm

If ever we sit down and talk one day i think you would be surprised by how much we have in common, we just disagree on how we should go about doing things.
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January 28, 2009 9:46pm
Patrick Starr

Bruv – classic!
I must admit my kids do own some hoodies, I told them people might mistake them for a gangsta – not much concern – so I told them people may mistake them for a greenie (I could tell by the looks on their faces)
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January 28, 2009 9:47pm
wikiriwhis business

“Abe Lincoln, of course, took the US to war to abolish slavery.”

The war criminal general Sherman stated “If this war was about slavery I would have offered my sword to the other side.”

The Federals moved into Fort Sumpter close to the Dixon -Mason line between the north/south and would not leave when requested by the south. They built up numbers and fired on southern troops.

The US in fact was the last bastion of slavery which would have died a peaceable death within a decade.

Lincoln wanted exise profits before that happened. No matter the cost in life as it turned out.
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January 28, 2009 9:48pm
greenfly

big bruv when do you expect it to kick in? Will we have safe streets soon, or was it just rhetoric to frighten voters? You say ‘stupid left wing ideology’ created the lawless state we find ourselves in now (?) does it follow that the 9 years of ‘stupid left wing ideology’ was created by the previous reign by the right wing? For how long can you blame the previous regime and when will NActional get to work and give us a brighter future and safer streets? Care to put a date to it?
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January 28, 2009 9:49pm
Patrick Starr

“For how long can you blame the previous regime ” Oh, about 9 years seems to be the precedent
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January 28, 2009 9:51pm
Banana Llama

It is like a boat tacking into the wind.

You go left, you go right, the end destination is still the same.
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January 28, 2009 9:58pm
greenfly

Banana – that’s profound!
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January 28, 2009 10:01pm
Banana Llama

Bah edit,

But to take a guess on what you typed before edit i would think you arn’t to happy with the watermelons right now either, very few greens left.
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January 28, 2009 10:09pm
greenfly

banana – I’m very comfortable with the position the Greens have taken. 9 in the House is a very useful number. Opposition can be a powerful spot, used well.
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January 28, 2009 10:20pm
Banana Llama

Fair enough.
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January 28, 2009 10:31pm
Patrick Starr

“I’m very comfortable with the position the Greens have taken”

Its called ‘bent over’
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January 28, 2009 11:18pm
Glutaemus Maximus

The Times comments robustly here.

Interesting

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article5586716.ece

The Palestinian / Gazan PR machine hasn’t blinded everyone.
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January 29, 2009 6:41am
greenfly

Patrick Starr – Homophobia can be a terribly debilitating condition. I’m very encouraged by the amount of comment from the Green MPs that is coming through the media – they seem more active and relevant than Labour. I’m heartened by Key’s moves to give credence to Green ideas and I’m doubly encouraged by the interest shown over anything green here at Kiwiblog! Mr Farrar seems to regard the Greens as key players 🙂 As I implied, the Greens are in a good position.
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January 29, 2009 8:22am
Ryan Sproull

Sanders chances of becoming President of the USA……..? Or Edwards, or Pelosi, or Biden, or Kennedy, or Reid, or Frank? Precisely what I am getting at, is that there was a pretty reliable rule of thumb one could go by pre Obama, that no candidate who was “too far left” by some pretty predictable standards, would have had a cooee of becoming President of the USA. However, give the Quisling MSM in the USA an even more “too far left” candidate who just happens to be a handsome and charismatic (articulate? – depends what you’re listening for) black man, and watch the propaganda machine go……..even then, I didn’t believe they’d get away with it. The timing was lucky, too; Bush’s unpopularity, the Republicans “Democrats in drag” big government, Bush’s and the Republicans mishandling of the looming financial crash (it is a tragedy they didn’t listen to Ron Paul years before); and McLame as the candidate, the guy responsible for McCain-Feingold……….

Anyway, the result is either “The Black FDR” or “The Black Vidkun Quisling” as President, and only time will tell which.

PhilBest,

Yeah, there’s certainly a spectrum within which candidates must fit in order to be considered, and Obama is on the left wing of that spectrum. It is a tremendously narrow spectrum, however, in the grand scheme of things. The media that favours him (primarily because he’s sexy as hell, and a nation of E! entertainment channel watchers finally have a president they can love) also precludes the discussion moving outside of that narrow spectrum.

We can say that Obama is as left as it gets for people with a shit show of becoming president in the US. I don’t know where you’d draw the line on the right, but I do know it excludes Ron Paul. It also excludes anyone who wouldn’t have a huge military budget and massive “aid” to Israel.

But spare a thought for all the other stuff that is excluded by the mainstream media – communism, anarcho-capitalism, anarcho-syndicalism, parecon, many religious perspectives, direct democracy, etc. You don’t like the media favouring one candidate for representative government over another – imagine how you’d feel if you’re not a fan of representative government in general.
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January 29, 2009 8:27am
Ryan Sproull

Patrick Starr – Homophobia can be a terribly debilitating condition. I’m very encouraged by the amount of comment from the Green MPs that is coming through the media – they seem more active and relevant than Labour. I’m heartened by Key’s moves to give credence to Green ideas and I’m doubly encouraged by the interest shown over anything green here at Kiwiblog! Mr Farrar seems to regard the Greens as key players 🙂 As I implied, the Greens are in a good position.

Oh, you assumed “bent over” is a bad position?

You homophobe.
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January 29, 2009 8:30am
greenfly

Not at all Ryan – I’m generally supportive of any position the Greens take. My statement to Patrick was one chosen at random, like ‘flossing regularly keeps your smile looking good’.
Truth to tell, ‘bent over’ brought to mind a painful experience from my high school days … when I was caned for giving cheek to the French teacher. (‘Giving cheek’ can be misinterpreted of course, but I’m sure you’re more careful than I was about commenting on ambiguous phrases used by other commenters 🙂
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January 29, 2009 9:06am
philu

“..# big bruv (2392) Vote: Add rating 8 Subtract rating 2 Says:
January 28th, 2009 at 9:22 pm

The boy came home with a “hoodie” three days ago Patrick, this morning he asked me if I had seen it, “yes, I have seen it ” I replied, “Ok, so where is it” was the question from the lad, ” I tossed it in the bin like I always told you I would if you wore one of those things into our home” was my answer.

I think he might start talking to me by next Wednesday…ha ha ha..”

fuck..!..you’re weird..!

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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January 29, 2009 9:07am
Owen McShane

More wheels falling off.
Hansen exposed. Go to:

http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.Blogs&ContentRecord_id=1a5e6e32-802a-23ad-40ed-ecd53cd3d320

Some extracts.

Washington DC: NASA warming scientist James Hansen, one of former Vice President Al Gore’s closest allies in the promotion of man-made global warming fears, is being publicly rebuked by his former supervisor at NASA.

Retired senior NASA atmospheric scientist Dr. John S. Theon, the former supervisor of James Hansen, NASA’s vocal man-made global warming fears soothsayer, has now publicly declared himself a skeptic and declared that Hansen “embarrassed NASA” with his alarming climate claims and said Hansen was “was never muzzled.” Theon joins the rapidly growing ranks of international scientists abandoning the promotion of anthropogenic global warming fears.

“Hansen was never muzzled even though he violated NASA’s official agency position on climate forecasting (i.e., we did not know enough to forecast climate change or mankind’s effect on it). Hansen thus embarrassed NASA by coming out with his claims of global warming in 1988 in his testimony before Congress.

Theon declared “climate models are useless.” “My own belief concerning anthropogenic climate change is that the models do not realistically simulate the climate system because there are many very important sub-grid scale processes that the models either replicate poorly or completely omit,” Theon explained. “Furthermore, some scientists have manipulated the observed data to justify their model results. In doing so, they neither explain what they have modified in the observations, nor explain how they did it. They have resisted making their work transparent so that it can be replicated independently by other scientists. This is clearly contrary to how science should be done. Thus there is no rational justification for using climate model forecasts to determine public policy,” he added.
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January 29, 2009 9:10am
Ryan Sproull

Truth to tell, ‘bent over’ brought to mind a painful experience from my high school days …

I stopped reading after this. Exactly how upsetting is this story?
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January 29, 2009 9:20am
LUCY

Totally off the subject but has anyone else noticed the photo in the DomPost B2 this morning? It is talking about a woman escorting her children home in Harare because the schools did not open. Mugabe is a disaster we all agree and he has to go but do the Mother and children in the photo belong to his favoured few? I ask only because the children apear to be wearing new uniforms with sturdy shoes and new backpacks. If they are the only ones who can afford to go to school is our concern misplaced?
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January 29, 2009 9:28am
MyNameIsJack

OCR down to 3.5%

Is it the EOTWAWKI?

Great news for my mortgage.
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January 29, 2009 9:31am
AG

Owen McShane writes “Washington DC: NASA warming scientist James Hansen, one of former Vice President Al Gore’s closest allies in the promotion of man-made global warming fears, is being publicly rebuked by his former supervisor at NASA.”

Or, actually, not…

http://bigcitylib.blogspot.com/2009/01/john-s-theon-new-elderly-denier-on.html
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January 29, 2009 9:51am
philu

lucy..are you really that shallow/simplistic..?

or are you just ‘pretending’..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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January 29, 2009 4:02pm

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