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July 1, 2009 8:05am by David Farrar

General Debate 1 July 2009

Halfway through the year!

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General Debate

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big bruv

Phool

I don’t need to prove anything, go and look it up for yourself, there is plenty of it.

Stay tuned to your wireless though Phool, it wont be long before you hear the vote.
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July 1, 2009 8:23pm
bjchip

Rightnow

Sorry I missed your comment. Too many too fast. Phil has linked to an article that cites some UK research… I’ve been diving into the BMJ and some other places…

Interesting stuff.

I am getting a range of 7-13% increased likelihood of schizophrenia like disorders based on intake dosage for adolescents. I do accept that this is probably reasonable. Remember, I am NOT Phil.

I also twigged to this in my travels Note the increase for DAILY use of Cannabis here is 2x and then note the increase for alcohol is EIGHT times… On this basis we should outlaw booze and all light up. I don’t advocate that, just pointing out that there is a real problem with policy matching risk profiles. People have gone quite stupid over the fear of the word and the “reefer madness” crowd is pleased. I am not. Unnecessary prohibition is a VERY bad thing.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2380692?dopt=Abstract

So accepting the 7-13% increase off a baseline of 0.6% we get 6 in 1000 rising to 8 in 1000 at most. I am being generous here. Not earth shattering. There are things that are problematical still. Depression was gender coupled. Females who were also frequent users, were much more likely to become depressed. I wonder if they controlled for weight gain as a secondary effect of heavy use. Can’t see that level of detail.

Finally there is the genetic coupling that appeared so compelling.

http://www.schizophrenia.com/sznews/archives/001559.html

This is particularly interesting, the absolute numbers were quite small, but the effects of this genetic coupling are apparently quite potent at enhancing risk. Prevalence of the genetic weakness in the society as a whole is not reported, and could explain the entire correlation.

All of this hinges on use of the drug at an early age, something that I don’t support and won’t argue, nor is it part of Green party policy. It might be useful for an MD who is prescribing to be aware of the genetic markers. It might be if we go for legalization we require testing for those markers… provided we could find a simple test.

Reducing attempted use by female adolescents is probably a matter of publicizing the truth about it helping them to gain weight… though that would be more effective for some societies than others…. but no case is being made for adolescent use and the “entry age” is a negotiable thing. A case could be made for making it 19 or 20 rather than 18.

None of this of course, is of interest with respect to medicinal use. THAT is a gimme. If the MD says use Morphine it is available… there should be no problem using Cannabis in its place.

respectfully
BJ
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July 1, 2009 8:32pm
philu

kahune..(maori party)..is arguing against it..

just trotting out a bunch of total lies..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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July 1, 2009 8:34pm
big bruv

They are not lies Phool, I thought her speech was a good one.

Tell me, are all Green MP’s forced to support his bill?
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July 1, 2009 8:38pm
bjchip

BB.. Shout loud insults. Make rude noises. Present no evidence…

You really aren’t much different no matter where you are.

You would do better to find a pebble of that evidence and make an argument around it.

The casual onlooker can only conclude that there is nothing there.

Which isn’t surprising to me.

BJ
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July 1, 2009 8:47pm
philu

why are we blocked from viewing the voting process..?

w..t.f..!

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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July 1, 2009 9:02pm
philu

no..bb..it’s called a conscience vote..

phil)whoar.co.nz)
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July 1, 2009 9:05pm
big bruv

Well, that’s that one out of the way.
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July 1, 2009 9:09pm
reid

“oohh..!..reid..!..my tongue is bleeding..!”

Keep it up phil, you’re doing great.

You get used to it after awhile, even tho it hurts at first..

And I’m completely with you on this argument.
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July 1, 2009 9:10pm
big bruv

So now Met wants to ban something else!

What a waste of time she is.
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July 1, 2009 9:10pm
jarbury

34-86, voted down. What a pity.

🙁
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July 1, 2009 9:11pm
big bruv

Lol…you could not make this shit up, Met wants to legalise cannabis but ban booze on the grounds that it is a dangerous drug.

The Greens really are idiots.
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July 1, 2009 9:12pm
jarbury

BB. They’re both drugs – they should be dealt with similarly. The Greens are the only ones who are consistent.
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July 1, 2009 9:15pm
big bruv

Phool…where are you Phool?
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July 1, 2009 9:18pm
reid

Apart from smoking marijuana, why is it that people tolerate the complete ignorance re: hemp and its uses?

Is it spooky for people? Is it weally scawy for them?

Hemp as we all know, is an extremely useful fast-growing environmentally friendly fibrous plant with a myriad of industrial uses from paper to fabric and possibly? (jury’s not yet in) for biofuel – [Whaleoil’s mileage differs on the latter – he has some useful info on this].

It’s only in the last century its usage became restricted because people discovered its psychotropic properties.

However, it’s such a great plant with myriad industrial uses, surely, I would have thought, that segment of the public with 3-digit IQs, would be requesting the idiot politicians re-assess their myopic stance in all areas. But no, not so far, apparently. Foolish, really, and quite costly for us to continue to fail to exploit this amazing piece of nature.
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July 1, 2009 9:19pm
big bruv

Jarbury

The only consistency that the Greens show is their hypocrisy.
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July 1, 2009 9:20pm
philu

so..big bruv..despite 63% of nzers supporting medical marijuana…

..and this able to provide real relief for suffering new zealanders..

..you are happy with this outcome..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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July 1, 2009 9:28pm
Hurf Durf

Why didn’t anyone tell me about just how delightfully deluded and insane Chris Trotter is?

http://bowalleyroad.blogspot.com/2009/04/pilgering-2008-election.html

“Over the course of the next ninety minutes you will see how the rules governing the funding of election campaigns in New Zealand were cleverly manipulated by a group of wealthy, right-wing religious fanatics to run a covert campaign, valued at more than a million dollars, to help the conservative National Party opposition win the 2005 general election. And how, when the unexpected winner of that election, the New Zealand Labour Party, attempted to reform the electoral finance laws that very nearly allowed the 2005 election to be subverted, the country’s news media ran a relentless crusade to discredit the new legislation – and its sponsors.

…

What saved President Chavez, was the existence of a single, publicly-owned television station, which was willing to tell the Venezuelan people the truth.

The tragedy of the story you are about to hear is that it has no such happy ending. Not only was there no major media outlet willing to stand up and tell the people of New Zealand the truth about what was happening in their country between 2005 and 2008, but New Zealand’s voters, denied access to that truth, had no means of knowing they were being lied to.”

Look out everyone! Religious Right under the bed!
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July 1, 2009 9:32pm
Jack5

Reid at 9.19 posted:”…However, it’s such a great plant with myriad industrial uses, surely…”

This supports the view that marijuana is a cult. Not only do the cultists want to smoke it and cook and eat it, they want to wear clothes made of its source, hemp, and probably live in houses made of hemp.

At least cigarette smokers (and I’m not one) don’t want to go round wearing tobacco leaf or wearing tobacco leaf clothes.
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July 1, 2009 10:00pm
reid

Jack you obviously haven’t read much history have you?

Try it and see what hemp was being used for in the 1800’s.

If it worked then would it work now? Of course, why not? The only reason it’s not being used now is because of govt and media manipulation.

I’m surprised you can’t come up with a better argument than “anyone who advocates its use is a hippy.”

I thought you were a bit more widely read.
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July 1, 2009 10:13pm
philu

reading through this thread the disparities in evidence offered couldn’t be clearer..

the progressives have presented linked evidence to both support their cases..

..and to refute the opinions/claims of the prohibitionists..(the anti-science people)..

..whereas those prohibitionists have not been able to provide one skerrick of evidence to support their claims..

..not one..!

..all they have offered are the usual tired/irrational prejudices..

..and quite gobsmacking to see in parliament..the national party ‘doctors’..

..presenting such twisting/refutation of proven scientific evidence/research..

..for shame..!

..to them..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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July 1, 2009 10:29pm
reid

Yes phil, wasn’t it a shame we didn’t see the Liarbore govt attempt to make a move in the right direction re: this all thru its nine year term.

I woulda thought, if anyone would have, they would’ve, then.

Weren’t they just the great big sillies, then?

P.S. Yes, I know you aren’t Liarbore, but I’m just drawing the behavioral comparison to point to the fact it’s not necessarily down to the flavour of the govt of the day which is responsible for this travesty.
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July 1, 2009 10:52pm
philu

the size of the defeat..posted against that 63% public support..

..shows how far out of touch with the voters most mp’s are..

..that and they are ‘scared’..

the one that surprised me tho’..was the maori party..

..when so many maori die from diabetes..

..and cannabis is the only relief for the excruciating pins & needles in physical extremeties..

..suffered in the final stages of that miserable death..

..and the maori party says..’no..!..our people cannot have that medicine..!’..(!)

..it’s a major ‘for shame..!’..for them..

..and all those other m.p.’s who voted for their fellow citizens to ‘just suffer!’..

..parliaments’ worst hour..for quite some time..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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July 1, 2009 11:05pm
reid

phil, the real issue is, the MP have v limited ammo, and where should they best take a stand.

Unfortunately, vis-a-vis the governing party, they’re not in the same “Most Favoured Nation” position that ACT occupies which gives ACT much more actual influence notwithstanding their actual nominal power.

So given that, if you were the MP, with the portfolios they have the granting of which has burned some of their credit, how would you play your remaining cards?
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July 1, 2009 11:18pm
Hurf Durf

Hey pothead phil: tell me about how butter and milk are Big Dairy conspiracies that will be busted wide open once some enterprising journalist reveals all to the public.
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July 2, 2009 12:32am
bjchip

Actually Jack5

What has been shown is that the ANTI-cannabis forces are basically a “cult” with no more scientific or medical credibility than witch doctors or the makers of “reefer madness”. In time the dinosaurs died off, unfortunately the same is not true of idiots, so I have no real hope that parliament will actually improve on this performance anytime soon.

I have sort-of enjoyed visiting, but I don’t expect to stay. Some folks here seemed to enjoy the information seeing the light of day and the arguments being made. Others.. well they just don’t change no matter what the facts are or how politely things are phrased or powerful the evidence is… a group overrepresented in parliament no matter which party is in power.

respectfully
BJ
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July 2, 2009 1:34am
bjchip

BB

You didn’t actually notice the evidence I presented that Booze is 4 TIMES as dangerous as pot. DID you…. 🙂

Which should be illegal again?

BJ
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July 2, 2009 1:39am
OECD rank 22 kiwi

Dawn it’s hot in London and has been all week. 32c and sun sun sun.
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July 2, 2009 2:29am
racer1

” Paul Marsden
I had to check the date today. After watching Breakfast today where one of our esteemed academics advancied the proposition that parents should have one vote for themselves and one vote for each child under 18 I thought we were back on April 1. Just think, Macsyna King would have had 4 votes”

I would have thought you of all people would be in support of traditional families getting disproportional levels of representation in the election?
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July 2, 2009 2:50am
Dusky

Racer – my mind boggles. I can only presume the academic must have given long and serious thought as to which elements of society can afford to have the most children. You pointed out Macsyna King would have 4 votes under that … thin edge of the wedge – the largest quantities of children have always seemed to me to be those who cannot afford to bring them up with their own earnings, but depend upon the state’s assistance. The middle class workers who pay the taxes for such assistance often don’t feel they can have more than one or two children these days, without sacrificing their own and their children’s livelihood.

I’m thankful that no truly democratic government could ever countenance such a ludicrous proposition. If there is any determination for the child to be represented, teach them to wield a crayon in the voting booth, and let them simply be influenced by their parents.

I’d have loved to vote McGillicuddy Serious when I was 12 – I LOVED their ads. At high school, most of the guys I spoke to expressed similar desires. Had anybody asked me back then whether I believed that as a human being I should be entitled to a vote, I imagine I’d have said “hell yeah”. Had anybody asked me whether I’d be willing for my parents to take that entitlement and vote for fuddy duddy stuffy National, I’d have been pissed out of my brain.

As it happens, I don’t believe children or teenagers should have a vote. But if they did? I sure as hell don’t think adults should be allowed to take that vote for them. Nobody ever should take a vote for somebody else.
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July 2, 2009 3:56am
expat

This story translates to NZ quite easily.

Britain is facing a reposession timebomb, Vince Cable warned yesterday.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/borrowing/mortgages/5700963/Just-six-families-helped-by-government-Mortgage-Rescue-Scheme.html
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July 2, 2009 6:29am
philu

“..reid (2852) Vote: Add rating 2 Subtract rating 0 Says:
July 1st, 2009 at 11:18 pm

phil, the real issue is, the MP have v limited ammo, and where should they best take a stand..”

two facts:

this was a conscience vote..

..and it was only to move the bill to the select committee stage..

..what ‘stand’..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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July 2, 2009 7:42am
Brian Smaller

This story translates to NZ quite easily.

Britain is facing a reposession timebomb, Vince Cable warned yesterday.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/borrowing/mortgages/5700963/Just-six-families-helped-by-government-Mortgage-Rescue-Scheme.html

Hey expat – with a link that long I thought Philu had hacked your user account.
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July 2, 2009 8:10am
Ryan Sproull

There’s no need to discuss the real or imagined harmful side-effects of cannabis or its medical usefulness.

It’s a question of principle.

Should people be able to live their lives how they want to live them, or should the nanny state restrict your freedom to do what you like with your body for your own good?
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July 2, 2009 8:46am
big bruv

so..big bruv..despite 63% of nzers supporting medical marijuana…

..and this able to provide real relief for suffering new zealanders..

..you are happy with this outcome..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)

“Happy” is not the right word, Ecstatic would be a better description.

As we heard last night Phool there are many other drugs available that can alleviate the “suffering” these people feel.

And please, I do not believe for one moment that 63% want to legalise dope.
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July 2, 2009 8:54am
stephen

“And please, I do not believe for one moment that 63% want to legalise dope.”

Though that’s not what he said, is it?
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July 2, 2009 8:56am
Bob

Labour must be seething over John Key’s success with taking Maori on board. Labour took the Maori vote for granted for a long time. It will be interesting to see how Maori vote in the next general election.
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July 2, 2009 9:38am
Owen McShane

The main argument for medical canabis is that it is a powerful anti-emetic which means it can be a Godsend for people on anti cancer chemotherapy when the vomiting prevents the absorbtion of the drug.

This anti-emetic property makes canabis dangerous “in the field” because it allows young people, in particular, to drink huge amounts of alcohol (spirits in particular) without the vomit reflex kicking in to protect them from alcohol poisoning.

But in the hospital ward that is a potent and useful effect.

I also do not understand the argument that we cannot use marijuana for medical purposes because it is also an illegal drug.

When I had my aortic dissection event (which is terribly painful) I was only able to get any sleep because of my morphine injections.

They were wonderful but I did not rush out of hospital looking for a fix.

I can see the attraction. Quite apart from the pain relief morphine makes everything look radiant and beautiful. The nurses used to bung it in then line up at the end of the bed and enjoy watching my face as my mind converted these three rather ordinary looking young women into the most beautiful women in the world. It’s nice to spread some joy around!
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July 2, 2009 12:01pm
village idiot

I find it hilarious that so many here support the State’s power to dictate what you can and cannot grow in your own garden!
You suckers!
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July 3, 2009 6:24pm
Redbaiter

“I find it hilarious that so many here support the State’s power to dictate what you can and cannot grow in your own garden!”

Yeah well unless you’ve never voted the jokes on you, for as far as I know, there’s been laws against growing tobacco supported by all parties, for yonks.
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July 3, 2009 6:29pm
village idiot

Have you ever wondered ‘why’ redbaiter? Why can’t you grow what ever you want in your own garden? Willing to suck that up are you, socialist, statist, because the big boys said so! Grow some balls, Redbaiter, and think!!! To afraid to question, are you? Why can’t you grow what you want? Your garden, your choice! No. Do as you are told, without a squeak, there’s a good little baiter. You’re commie cannon fodder, you are!
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July 3, 2009 6:43pm
Redbaiter

Please address the point Idiot. You were criticising people for voting for Mary Jane prohibition, when you’ve apparently been voting for tobacco prohibition. Do you admit to your hypocrisy or deny it??
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July 3, 2009 6:54pm

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