General Debate 25 July 2009

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Sonny Blount

A starter for Dr Brash’s productivity taskforce:

Raise the speed limit to 120kph on our motorways and suitable highways

Devise a plan and timeframe to lift the limit to 150kph

As technology becomes suitable set a goal to have personal transportation travelling 200kph on main routes

In built up areas esp. schools create a barrier between pedestrians and the road and ticket the pedestrians that venture onto the road rather than lower the speed of cars

One of the main benefits of improving technology is faster travel, it is of obvious benefit to everyone and should be a serious objective. We have had the same speed limit since 1969 when the Mark I Escort replaced the Anglia. In the 40 years preceding this change the speed limit was raised 100% from 30mph to 60mph. In the 40 years since we supposedly have not made any technological progress.

“A 1994 study by Jeremy Jackson and Roger Blackman showed, consistent with the risk homeostasis theory, that although increased speed limits and reduced speeding fines significantly increased driving speed, there was no effect on accident frequency, with the 24 participants maintaining the same level of risk and risky behaviour. It also showed that an increased accident cost caused large and significant reductions in accident frequency but no change in speed choice. The abstract states that the results suggest that regulation of specific risky behaviours such as speed choice may have little influence on accident rates.”
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July 25, 2009 9:36am
Redbaiter

Another nail in the coffin of the power obsessed left’s scam on climate change.

The Indian Environment Minister gets it.

“Jairam Ramesh, the Indian environment minister, accused the developed world of needlessly raising alarm over melting Himalayan glaciers.

He dismissed scientists’ predictions that Himalayan glaciers might disappear within 40 years as a result of global warming.

“We have to get out of the preconceived notion, which is based on western media, and invest our scientific research and other capacities to study Himalayan atmosphere,” he said.”
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July 25, 2009 9:45am
Brian Smaller

How about taxing overtime for people who get it at a lower rate – say anything over 40 hours gets taxed at 10%. Fucks me off that people who work extra hours to raise extra cash get penalised.
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July 25, 2009 9:46am
Alan Wilkinson

SB, you don’t mention that your excellent proposal would entail firing a raft of useless bureaucrats and freeing up 35% of police and court resources to deal with serious crimes.
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July 25, 2009 9:47am
Redbaiter

I’m with you Sonny. Great stuff. It will go over with mungbean NZers though like a lead balloon.

Too brainwashed by the evil of state owned broadcasters with a social standing far above what they are really due.
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July 25, 2009 9:48am
Bok

Sonny, you want to be a race car driver, go to the track.
The sheer stupidity of what you are suggesting is beyond belief.
Firstly your roads are not up to it
and secondly your drivers are not either.
Just remember that the drivers are the problem.

Remember Possum? Dead because some person thought they knew how to drive quickly in a modern car.
And one of NZ’s most talented drivers, in a vehicle that was state of the art and suited to the terrain was unable to
avoid him, and died.

The only way your stupid and trust me it is, would be to build new roads with totally separated traffic. But then if we do that, why dont we just build superfast bullet trains? Take the wheel out of the drivers hands completely.
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July 25, 2009 9:51am
hubris

Raise the speed limit to 120kph on our motorways and suitable highways

Worst. Idea. Ever.

Kiwis can’t even drive safely at 10kph, and the lazy retards won’t buy the tech required to do it safely.

So perhaps you’d need to hand out government grants for all car owners, to have their cars retrofitted with the required technology? Yeah, that would increase productivity.

Or perhaps make everyone buy a new car with the technology fitted. Yeah, that would mean all the proles wouldn’t be able to afford a new car to get to work. That would increase productivity.

While technology has improved, Kiwis’ driving ability hasn’t, and with more cars on the road, there’s more chances of incidents…which block the roads…which means…nobody goes anywhere, regardless of the max speed limit.
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July 25, 2009 9:59am
Redbaiter

Texans can handle it-

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=15497
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July 25, 2009 10:08am
Bok

One of the big problems is that give us guys a car, and we love to show just how good we are. I am just as bad as the next guy. I drive a state of the art sports car that is made for speed, and I find myself pushing it just a little when the adrenaline buzz sets in. And I am 50. Have a look at statistics around NZ and you will see that there is a change happening in crash statistics. More and more alcohol is giving way as the main cause to speed being the main cause.

Before I left NZ I did a series of documentaries with the NZ police and with the crash unit. And trust me the one thing that stands out is young guys in fast cars showing off. I would like to think that I have gained a bit of wisdom in the last 50 years, and I still catch myself going to fast (Speed limit here is 110 in a lot of places.

Unless you raise the driving age to 25 and make it a permanent loss of license and jail time if people go faster than your proposed speed limit, you will simply raise the death toll.

The other part of it is that accidents, causes a loss of productivity. And with the way people drive in NZ and the roads, you better believe that an increase in speed means an increase in accidents.
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July 25, 2009 10:09am
artemisia

Excellent article on Snapper cards by Pattrick Smellie in Scoop (item dated 24 July). Fot those not from Welly, it is an RFID card for buses and a few other places, and expanding. He says the system was implemented in Wellington for $11 million. However, the Auckland Regional Transport Authority (ARTA) has already spent this much to hold the tender process which Thales, a French company, is expected to win. Cost expected to be many times the cost of rolling out Snapper and may, if all goes smoothly, have a pilot scheme in place by some time in 2011.

I would like to see the rationale from ARTA for their decision.

Mr Smellie ends his article with:

“So here’s a suggestion. Next time you find yourself listening to Bill English rabbiting on about New Zealand’s feeble productivity and the need to do things quicker, smarter, and cheaper, and you’re not quite sure what he means, think of this example.

Even if Tim Brown is only half-right about the hurdles a good idea faces in this country, we should all be very worried. It’s no way to run a bus service, let alone a country.”

Where is Rodney when you need him?
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July 25, 2009 10:11am
Michaels

I just watched the videos on John Key at home on http://www.stuff.co.nz
Is this the first normal family “person” that we have had as prime minister??
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July 25, 2009 10:24am
philu

whoar..!

here’s a turn-up for the books..!

..the f.b.i.admits it has no hard evidence..

..linking osama bin laden….

..to 9/11..

http://whoar.co.nz/2009/fbi-says-it-has-%e2%80%9cno-hard-evidence-connecting-bin-laden-to-911%e2%80%9dumisntwasnt-the-rationale-for-the-invasion-of-afghanistanthat-bin-laden-did-911and-that-he-was-hiding-therewhoar/

(holy fake/false/wrong reason for invading/warring in..afghanistan..!..batman..!…)

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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July 25, 2009 11:01am
reid

Is this the first normal family “person” that we have had as prime minister??

No, Shipley, Bolger, Muldoon, Lange were “normal.”

It’s just that the recent one, wasn’t, in anyway.
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July 25, 2009 11:03am
Redbaiter

In an online poll, currently 85% of respondents say Obama should release his Birth Certificate.

I agree.

Let’s check it against the COLB.

http://www.politicsdaily.com/2009/07/24/hot-seat-obamas-birth-certificate/
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July 25, 2009 11:15am
MT_Tinman

Sonny, you’ve obviously thought about this, something those reacting negatively to your suggestions certainly haven’t. Nor did they read you suggestion properly, going into outrageous denial at the start.

I agree with most of your ideas in principle but can see practical reasons why implementation would cause problems – particularly for those same nay-sayers who are not just unable to think for themselves but refuse to allow others to do so either.

One thing for the obstructionists out there to ponder; The piss poor standard of driving in New Zealand (and it is piss poor!) is caused by the nanny-state over-policing of the roads not the cause of the nanny state over-policing of the roads.
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July 25, 2009 11:18am
Alan Wilkinson

Bok, your mindset (and probably the documentaries you produced) is exactly why NZ is poor and going backwards.

“We have great new technology so let’s all go slower.” Brilliant! What a recipe for progress.

No wonder our roads are crap and I spend so much time on SH1 crawling at 40 km/h behind a row of trucks and wombles.
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July 25, 2009 11:19am
Alan Wilkinson

MT_Tinman, don’t take it for granted that NZ drivers are worse than anywhere else.

The dismal record of tourist drivers on our roads strongly suggests otherwise.
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July 25, 2009 11:20am
getstaffed

Dubai airport. 3am and it’s as busy as Kirks on sale day. Just watched a pack of burqa-clad women enthusiastically trying perfumes. Good on them I say. Just because they are forced to look undifferentiated doesn’t mean they have to smell undifferentiated.

On subject of driving, I’ve just spent two weeks driving around Italy. Autostrada, main roads, cities, tiny roads etc. Italians do drive more quickly than Kiwis, and in the case of their Autostrada and main roads there are of better quality than ours making 140kmh+ pretty straightforward. The road surface, engineering, supporting infrastructure are really very good. I noticed that the Italians do not seem too fussed when overtaken or when another car pushes in. They just let it happen and get on with their own journey. Quite a few kiwi drivers – incl myself on occasions – could do with being a bit more relaxed like this.

Another observation. The district of Trastavere in Rome is like a giant courtney place at night. 1000’s of enoteca, trattoria etc. After a week of dining out (drinks at one place, walk to another for dinner, then another for gelato and/or coffee) not once did I see packs of drunken people either inside or outside. It was very refreshing!
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July 25, 2009 11:29am
MT_Tinman

Alan Wilkinson (355) Vote: Add rating 0 Subtract rating 0 Says:
July 25th, 2009 at 11:20 am

MT_Tinman, don’t take it for granted that NZ drivers are worse than anywhere else.

The dismal record of tourist drivers on our roads strongly suggests otherwise.

As a professional driver for many years and having worked with tourists for many more I can assure you they are.

Many tourist drivers have problems due to lack of familiarity with NZ driving conditions but many more have problems because of piss poor NZ drivers.
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July 25, 2009 11:32am
Cerium

“The piss poor standard of driving in New Zealand (and it is piss poor!) is caused by the nanny-state over-policing of the roads not the cause of the nanny state over-policing of the roads.”

Blaming our poor driving on “over-policing”? Would our driving suddenly improve if the reduced policing?
Or would we just find another excuse?
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July 25, 2009 11:33am
Ross Miller

I note the Stuff Report that the Progressives have all but merged with Labour. That there will be no Progressive Party List in 2011; that Progressive activist John Pagani has thrown his hat in the ring to be the new Labour Party General Secretary and that Anderton expects members of his ‘Party’ to stand as Labour candidates.

But he won’t be joining Labour. Of course not … and give up the addn dosh he receives as the Leader of a (albeit very small) Parliamentary Party.

Put these words in order ….. snouts, socialists, whoever, with, right, expects, thing, their, the, do, in, to, trough, the.

typical
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July 25, 2009 11:36am
Sonny Blount

build new roads with totally separated traffic

Thats the idea Bok. We’ve been doing it on our motorways for a long time if you haven’t noticed yet.

just build superfast bullet trains

The best transport solution is individual vehicles that are doorstep to doorstep. Public transport doesn’t cover the two trips at either end, and will increase land values close to the stations, and decrease land further away if alternatives are not provided.

Take the wheel out of the drivers hands completely

As Owen McShane has previously mentioned, we can already do this. Thats what I expect will be required if we start travelling over 150kph.

an increase in speed means an increase in accidents

Why don’t we have an upper speed of limit of 80kph then?

While technology has improved, Kiwis’ driving ability hasn’t, and with more cars on the road, there’s more chances of incidents

The road toll in NZ peaked in 1973 at 843

Last year it was 366

There are many, many more cars now. I would estimate that per km driven, the current road toll is 25% or less than 35 years ago.

Big, wide, straight roads are not hard to negotiate in modern vehicles.

The limits of technology improve over time

Computers get faster
Communication gets faster
Wealth increases
Lifespans get longer
Planes get faster
Boats get faster
So does transport, we should aim for it and plan for it

How many other production processes have not sped up for 40 years?
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July 25, 2009 11:45am
Bok

Alan no one is suggesting we go slower, just not faster. I drive in SA a lot where the speed limit is 120.
In Nz everybody thinks that they are great drivers..
They are not. How in gods name has over policing made people bad drivers?
That is just BS
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July 25, 2009 11:47am
Sonny Blount

We try to scare the shit out of people going on the roads when the most important skill is confidence.
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July 25, 2009 11:51am
Redbaiter

“Blaming our poor driving on “over-policing”? ”

Cerium is an extreme left winger, and why the fuck she wants to hang around Kiwiblog with her tired old leftist perspectives and attracting negative kharma by the truckload I dont understand. Go to the Standard idiot, you will be among like believers. They’ll like you there.
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July 25, 2009 12:02pm
Bok

Where the most important skill is confidence..??!?
There is no shortage of confidence in NZ drivers, especially males under 35.
And confidence is not a skill. The problem is that people see confidence as a skill, and not skill as the thing that should give you confidence.

Once again take the guy that took out possum bourne, had great confidence, just not enough skill.

No confidence is not what is needed, but common sense.
Have you ever driven in Sydney? It would drive most people insane when they first come here from NZ.
The driving style is aggressive and direct, it has to be for traffic in such a busy place to flow.
But I rarely if ever see the absolute dicks you get in their “modern and technologically advanced” rice rockets, that go at 130 or more up and down that motorway. One has skill the other confidence. The ones in NZ with the confidence in their driving ability usually kill a couple of others before they realise that confidence is not what makes you a good driver.
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July 25, 2009 12:03pm
Bok

Redbaiter I am rightwinger, and in this case she or he is right, how has over policing made NZ bad drivers? I agree that there is a lot of areas where NZ is over policed, and I also believe that the police spend far to much time on speeding. But that does not have any effect on the driving skills of NZders. It has a big effect on the ability of the cops to do real work such as catching crims.
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July 25, 2009 12:06pm
Inky_the_Red

Ross
The end of Anderton’s party should be a good thing for the left. The Progs have been part of the Labour Party for a while.

Of course for a left needs to be broad and not just for the liberal green left. Part of the problem for the small left parties (Alliance, Workers, RAM etc) has been they have been dominated by liberal. The left needs to realise some potential supporters may be socially conservative as well.

No idea why I share my opinions on a right of Right blog but then I just have. Probably cause I’m quite mad. Or the fact that this blog is friendlier to use than most.
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July 25, 2009 12:08pm
Redbaiter

Bok, as a South African, come here presumably to escape the destruction of your own country at the hands of the left, you should recognise the dangers of the government using mass media to effect changes in the way people think.

Power hungry socialists have by means of TV advertising, drummed into gullible and innocent NZers the idea that driving is dangerous.

It is not.

Life is dangerous. You need to be careful to live, but you do not need governments telling you how to think.

You are being manipulated by left wing scum whose ultimate objective is to destroy private transport.

Wake up.
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July 25, 2009 12:09pm
Inky_the_Red

On the subject of roads. NZ roads are not designed for high speeds many tourist get to NZ see the quality of road and note that traffic travels both ways and drive to the conditions (usually about 20kmh slower than the limit). We don’t need to drive fast.

We don’t actually need to drive as much as we do. I cycle to and from work and can pass the same car 3 or 4 times on my journey. Cars slow us down and contribute to kiwi being the third most overweight people on the planet. I don’t claim to be fit and am clearly overweight but I don’t see any reason to take a bar on a 5km journey to work each day.
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July 25, 2009 12:14pm
Bok

Sony statistics can be massaged to say what you want. There was a number of ather factors included that you might or might not realise in the 70’s, i’ll list them.

1. No seat belts (not compulsory)
2. Roads and lack of sealed roads also things like single lane bridges (I know the Corromandel still have some, but when I first arrived in NZ they were everywhere.
3. Cars – Even in 1980 most people used to drive old bombs, in fact the Jap imports of the early 80’s saw a whole lot of newish cars around at good prices.
4) Drink driving. The pubs used to close early so people tanked up and shot off. Driving under the influence was never seen as much of a worry. It was. In fact ask any-one who drove in the 70’s and 80’s about the various hotels and roadhouses where you could get beer and wine on the main routes. I remember going skiing in the 70’s and we would stop at three or four pubs along the way (lon drive back then and meet the same people in each pub, also on their way to the mountain.

The list goes on and on Add in things such as quick response of emergency services, cell phone to get help etc and a large number of people who died back then might have lived.
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July 25, 2009 12:19pm
Sonny Blount

So I take it what your saying Bok, is citizens are all stupid and useless and should not question the rules and limits placed on them by their superiors?

As I stated before, the road toll peaked at 843 in 1973. It was 366 last year. What do you read into this?
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July 25, 2009 12:21pm
Alan Wilkinson

“Many tourist drivers have problems due to lack of familiarity with NZ driving conditions but many more have problems because of piss poor NZ drivers.”

Well, that’s a complete claptrap argument. NZ drivers have to put up with the same minority of poor NZ drivers and they don’t crash with anything like the same frequency as tourists. Our roads are very poor by the standards that most tourists are used to in their home countries. Our drivers actually cope better. Relatively few NZ drivers crash when they drive overseas.

The evidence that NZ drivers are worse than others is weak to non-existent as far as I know.
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July 25, 2009 12:22pm
Bok

Red I no onger live in NZ I lived there for nearly thirty years. I agree with your sentiments on some things,
however there are some things that the government does need to control. They need to keep law and order and protect my property.
Stopping 20 something Schumaker wanna bees, falls into that category.
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July 25, 2009 12:23pm
Sonny Blount

On the subject of roads. NZ roads are not designed for high speeds many tourist get to NZ see the quality of road

The idea is we should be fixing them

We don’t actually need to drive as much as we do. I cycle to and from work and can pass the same car 3 or 4 times on my journey. Cars slow us down and contribute to kiwi being the third most overweight people on the planet. I don’t claim to be fit and am clearly overweight but I don’t see any reason to take a bar on a 5km journey to work each day.

Good for you, now if you’d like to pay a visit to my mother and tell her she should cycle to work up and down Ngauranga gorge in June. You’ll find out all about smacking then. What should she do with her shopping?
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July 25, 2009 12:26pm
Alan Wilkinson

“Alan no one is suggesting we go slower, just not faster.”

Rubbish. The speed limit through the Dome valley has been reduced to 80 km/h, likewise on Windy Ridge, now we have 40 km/h limits past schools, the tolerance has been reduced drastically everwhere.
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July 25, 2009 12:27pm
Alan Wilkinson

“We don’t need to drive fast. We don’t actually need to drive as much as we do.”

Speak for yourself, Inky. When you’ve cloned yourself you get to say “we”.
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July 25, 2009 12:30pm
Bok

No Sonny, I realise you posted that before I posted the above response, but you are now putting up a strawman.
“So I take it what your saying Bok, is citizens are all stupid and useless and should not question the rules and limits placed on them by their superiors?”

That is a 4th former type argument. So I’ll use the same. Do you believe we should be allowed to drive up and down the main streets of cities firing guns out of the window of our cars? No of course not. There is a law (other that the basic common sense ), that also prohibits it. So does that mean that we believe that citizens are stupid etc etc.

The fact remains that the biggest fall in the accident and death rate is two fold. One is clamping down on Alcohol and driving….ie Booze busses. (A mate of mine had to close his hotel on State highway one when the drinking culture started changing – because of the booze busses) and fast emergency response for survivability in accidents.

Now Sonny surly you are not suggesting that the citizens are stupid because we have drink driving laws, are you? Or do you think we should get rid of the Breath alcohol limit?
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July 25, 2009 12:31pm
Inky_the_Red

Sonny,

Many of our roads can’t be “Fixed” there is nowhere to build roads to European standards for example through the Lewis Pass.

As for your mother I don’t suggest she cycles everywhere. What I suggest is people making short trip look at walking or cycling. As for carrying loads back there are option for cycle trailers (like in this ad http://www.bicycle-trailers.co.nz/products.asp )
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July 25, 2009 12:35pm
Bok

Okay Alan let’s be pedantic. I should have said the following: “Alan I am not suggesting that we should go slower just not faster.”

I was attacked for my argument and speak only for me. Not for anyone else.

Also I know both the Dome and Windy Ridge well, And in fact I filmed two accidents that occurred because of speed in the Dome valley (driver on both cases cut the corner because they were going to fast and was in a head on. Both Fatals.

Windy ridge going south. 2006 May Driving back from Matakana. Driver racing up the hill (that nasty tight little road that opens into the two lanes) just before the straight he loses it and straight into a van three cars in front of us. Huge mess.

So Maybe there is just cause?
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July 25, 2009 12:38pm
Kapital

Well as a self confessed leftie I have to say that whilst having a national Government wouldn’t be my ideal choice it is good to see that the Leader Mr key is more to the left then Philin Goff. It also good so see the frustration brewing as the good old righties try to implement their agendas only to be frustrated by that nice populist Mr Key. Much as I would like to see Goff rolled though, cos he virtually gives tThe Nats another 3 years . It doe not matter as long as JK is at the helm resisting he push rightwards.
The fun will begin when that leftish conspiracy” climate change forces NZ to make drastic cuts in emissions and consequent drop in living standards . That and the ignoring of the referendum makes me feel all warm and fuzzy
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July 25, 2009 12:39pm
Jack5

Change of topic for a minute if I may …

The Mainstream Media (MSM) sometimes sneer at blogs as a lesser communications form, questioning their authority and moaning about their alleged dependence on the work of others.

This morning’s (25th July) Christchurch Press has an editorial which suggests MSM stone throwers write at desks inside glass houses. Christchurch Press editorials vary markedly in quality, which suggests they are written by a number of people. An excellent one recently elaborated on the line between political and judicial powers in the wake of the Elias comments on prisons. If this editorial was A grade, today’s is E grade.

Today’s piece sets out to whitewash a Press report suggesting the Government is preparing Meridian for sale. Key quashed this rumour, and it was no more than a scare rumour probably emanating from the Labour Party, though the Press says it came from within Meridian. Perhaps so, but this propaganda has got “made in Labour Lululand” written all over it. Clayton Cosgrove is mentioned in two Christchurch Press stories containing the allegation.

But, o-ho, says the Christchurch Press today, National might change its policy at the next election. (Key has already said that if National changes its policy and moves to sell assets it will be up front about this in its next election campaign.)

O-ho again, says the Press, National has appointed Don Brash head of the productivity commission, and “Brash has previously advocated privatisation, including in the electricity industry.”

The editorial says that if National has long-range plans to privatise then it should announce them now — presumably so the Meridian rumour it reported seriously might no longer be bullshit.

The reporter, one Paul Gormann, wrote in the Christchurch Press on Wednesday (22nd July):”New Zealand’s biggest state- owned company(Meridian) is possibly being readied for sale”.

And..

“While the Government has promised that no state-owned enterprises (SOEs) will be privatised in its first term, industry sources told The Press yesterday that the restructuring was the beginning of the “Telecomisation” of Meridian.”

In a story the next day, Gormann reported the National Government’s assurance it will not sell public assets without making them an election issue. However, Gormann repeats:” Sources have told The Press the first steps appear to be being taken towards privatising Meridian.”

So much for much vaunted MSM reliability.

As for relying on the work of others (as the MSM says blogs etc bludge on the MSM), today’s editorial says the Meridian article was written by “an experienced reporter, who had previously prised out the unusual business deals of Transpower, which in turn led to a change in the rules governing SOEs”.

Really? Didn’t the reporter just report the views and analysis of two accounting academics then (and perhaps still) at Canterbury University, one of them a Dr Robb.

The accountancy academics were alarmed at the leaseback-like arrangements using the national grid with an American company. The arrangement is similar to the international aircraft leases and both are apparently aimed at reducing tax in the lender’s country (US for Transpower and Japan for most aircraft leases). Regardless of any danger to Transpower, it is rich for the Press to talk of its reporter prising out the deals, when the beancounting professors did the head scratching.
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July 25, 2009 12:40pm
Bok

Also let’s keep the record straight. I do not believe that cars are bad. Just drivers. As i said I have a very fast European sports car that I paid a lot of money for, I just dont think drivers are up the the quiker speeds. 110 maybe on good roads. 120 No.
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July 25, 2009 12:41pm
Sonny Blount

Sony statistics can be massaged to say what you want.

What massaging did I do?

You haven’t provided any evidence to back up your generic critisisms of all kiwis on the road

There was a number of ather factors included that you might or might not realise in the 70’s, i’ll list them.

1. No seat belts (not compulsory)
2. Roads and lack of sealed roads also things like single lane bridges (I know the Corromandel still have some, but when I first arrived in NZ they were everywhere.
3. Cars – Even in 1980 most people used to drive old bombs, in fact the Jap imports of the early 80’s saw a whole lot of newish cars around at good prices.

Hooray.

You have got my point, technology changes. Add to that list anti-lock brakes, airbags, automatic clutches, better tyres, more engine power, better impact crumple zones, better road barriers, power steering, better road signals and signage. As these advances continue, the safety of our roads improves, and we should be able to get where we’re going faster.

By all means improve the skill level of drivers, make getting a drivers licence considerably harder, make defensive driving courses compulsory. There is a solution to this issue beyond issuing fines and patronising everyone.

Take action against irresponsible drivers. Same as every other area of society, catch the crooks, don’t penalise the innnocent.

Super fast networks could be limited to suitable vehicles and have an electronic wof required to get on them.
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July 25, 2009 12:44pm
Bok

But let me also say that the biggest menace on the roads are cyclists. Dangerous and selfish. Try driving from Silverdale to Browns bay down East Coast Road on a weekend. And these bikers are three abreast going uphill.

Or worse is tourists who cycle around nz with their trailer with children in. Nuts. Okay when there is a decent shoulder… but this is NZ we are talking about.
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July 25, 2009 12:44pm
MyNameIsJack

Redbaiter (7019) Vote: 2 1 Says:

July 25th, 2009 at 11:15 am
In an online poll, currently 85% of respondents say Obama should release his Birth Certificate.

Another online poll reports 99.9% of respondents want rebbaiter to produce the Kenyan birth certificate or shut the fuck up.
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July 25, 2009 12:46pm
Sonny Blount

s i said I have a very fast European sports car that I paid a lot of money for, I just dont think drivers are up the the quiker speeds. 110 maybe on good roads. 120 No.

You’re not able to control it at 120kph on a motorway? What kind of car is it?
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July 25, 2009 12:46pm
Bok

Okay this can go on forever…
“You have got my point, technology changes. Add to that list anti-lock brakes, airbags, automatic clutches, better tyres, more engine power, better impact crumple zones, better road barriers, powers steering, better road signals and signage. As these advances continue, the safety of our roads improves, and we should be able to get where we’re going faster.”

You miss the point. The damage to productivity is still there when there is an accident. Yes survivability is up, but a crash costs money. The fact that you survive does not change the fact that you still close the motorway, get the ambulance out, spend two weeks in ICU etc etc.. But let me ask you

Are you a good driver? Can you handle a car at 120? 130? 150?
How long have you been driving?
Have you done a defensive driving course?

Your argument above is all about going fast and surviving because of airbags etc, not the point at all. And why leave out the biggest of the bullet points alcohol?
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July 25, 2009 12:52pm
MyNameIsJack

I would have tjhought there’s be some comment on John Key’s Notional Government opeing NZ to the depradations of disaster capitalists, but nothing yet. Look out, we may be next.

China has bought The Onion.

http://www.theonion.com/content/index
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July 25, 2009 12:52pm
MyNameIsJack

You miss the point. The damage to productivity is still there when there is an accident. Yes survivability is up, … and this survivability increase comes at a horrendous cost. Many people who are now left either vegetative or with years of rehab ahead would once have died in the crash. Not all the safety improvements are necessarily good.
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July 25, 2009 12:55pm
Sonny Blount

But let me also say that the biggest menace on the roads are cyclists. Dangerous and selfish. Try driving from Silverdale to Browns bay down East Coast Road on a weekend. And these bikers are three abreast going uphill.

Or worse is tourists who cycle around nz with their trailer with children in. Nuts. Okay when there is a decent shoulder… but this is NZ we are talking about.

Cyclists could pay an annual registration to fund their own cycleway network as car drivers have for the last 100 years.

They should also be subject to regular warrant checks on their brakes, lights, etc.

And be properly policed and ticketed as are car drivers for not wearing hi-vis clothing, indicating properly, running traffic lights, not pulling over/riding two abreast with traffic behind travelling less than the speed limit, passing vehicles on the inside between parked vehicles and traffic, and being smarmy gits.

P.S. I used to ride a bike up to 20k+ to and from work in Chch. I never had a problem with cars because I kept out of their way and I wasn’t a smarmy git. Living in Wgtn I choose to drive or catch the train because it’s not safe and I’m not stupid.
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July 25, 2009 12:56pm
Bok

s i said I have a very fast European sports car that I paid a lot of money for, I just dont think drivers are up the the quiker speeds. 110 maybe on good roads. 120 No.

You’re not able to control it at 120kph on a motorway? What kind of car is it?

Now you are being juvenile.. Again taking bits out of context. But if I have to explain

I like fast cars. I also like life. The quicker you go the chance you have to avoid others who are idiots.

This will go on forever. It is early morning in sunny Sydney and time to go out..
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July 25, 2009 12:57pm
Alan Wilkinson

Bok, frankly, anyone who cannot drive safely at 120 km/h on a straight empty piece of NZ highway should not have a licence to drive outside of their toddle down the street to the local dairy.

If we reduce the speed limit everywhere someone has an accident we will wind up not able to drive anywhere. Private enterprise would never take that attitude. It would look for ways to make the road safer and faster, not slower.
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July 25, 2009 12:58pm
Cerium

Red, you must hate driving here, you have to keep to the left.

But over-policed or not I may be in the bad driver category, I am often around the middle of the road.

Seriously though, what has speed restrictions and driver capability got to do with left and right? You wander all over the road sometimes and simply label and abuse anyone you disagree with.

BTW, I am not against raising some speed limits but I see a bigger priority in improving driving skills.
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July 25, 2009 1:00pm
hubris

# MT_Tinman (331) Vote: Add rating 1 Subtract rating1 Says:
July 25th, 2009 at 11:18 am

The piss poor standard of driving in New Zealand (and it is piss poor!) is caused by the nanny-state over-policing of the roads not the cause of the nanny state over-policing of the roads.

So…how do you come to that conclusion?

More likely reasons for shit driving (conclusions plucked out of my own arse, of course, as it seems to be what you just did):
1. The driver training is shit;
2. The roads are shit;
3. People’s attitude to risk is shit;
4. The cars are shit, and are too powerful for the drivers.
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July 25, 2009 1:00pm
MyNameIsJack

Alan Wilkinson (361) Vote: 0 0 Says:

Private enterprise would never take that attitude. It would look for ways to make the road safer and faster, not slower.

Then you haven’t seen the balls up private enterprise has made of roads in Melbourne and Sydney.
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July 25, 2009 1:01pm
Alan Wilkinson

MNIJ. Nope. Tell me how they have made the roads they operate slower?

Or have they had politicians and bureaucrats do that for them?
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July 25, 2009 1:04pm
Paulus

Brian Smaller -taxing overtime.
I was once a senior exec in a company where the account dept always applied to me to do overtime before quarterly balance. I knew quite well that they “went slow’ in order to get overtime; there was little I could do as they effectively had me over a barrel.

I see from the Harold today that at long last they are returning to form and that any/every thing the Government does is wrong, and they are feeling sorry for Goofy. About time we can see where they stand – the letters from the same people keep on arising again, often incorrectly bitching. Labour supporters are back in the MSM again.
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July 25, 2009 1:09pm
Sonny Blount

You miss the point. The damage to productivity is still there when there is an accident.

I’m not advocating more accidents.

I am saying, take the steps to reduce accidents so that we can travel faster. Evidence suggests that increasing the speed limit does not increase the accident rate. The dangerous areas are actually where the speed limits are below 100 in built up areas and sharp corners. Going straightish on the motorways and highways is not especially dangerous. There is plenty of parts of the road network that are safe for 120 right now.

If your assumption that speed limit is directly related to accidents is correct, why not reduce the speed limit to 80k or less across the board? Why do you think 100k is the correct speed limit?

Are you a good driver? Can you handle a car at 120? 130? 150?

Anybody that cannot handle a car at 120 is not suitable to hold a drivers licence.

How long have you been driving? Have you done a defensive driving course?

Whats that got to do with it? As you mentioned statistics earlier, 1 case is irrelevant, same as your Possum Bourne example.
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July 25, 2009 1:11pm
Sonny Blount

and why leave out the biggest of the bullet points alcohol?

Nothing to do with it. Seperate issue. But a breathilizer on the ignition of new cars.

I’m not saying we should all drive drunk.
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July 25, 2009 1:13pm
Sonny Blount

Bok says:

I like fast cars. I also like life. The quicker you go the chance you have to avoid others who are idiots.

So it’s good enough for you but not good enough for everyone else.

I’m guessing you must be a socialist?
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July 25, 2009 1:17pm
hubris

Dr Brash should investigate teleportation technology to increase transport efficiency.

He has as much chance of making that work as he does making the indolent population of this country more productive.
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July 25, 2009 1:22pm
Bok

Jesus
I meant to say the faster you go the less chance you have to avoid others making their mistakes at speed.

point 2 You are quote road toll as accident figures, so the road does not actually reflect the actual accident figures which has gone up quite a lot simply because of more cars on the road for one. but quoting road toll does not equate to the whole argument of productivity.

Nothing to do with it. Seperate issue. But a breathilizer on the ignition of new cars. What the now you want to put even more controls on. Surely you are not suggesting that the citizens are stupid and need….. You quote road toll and I talk about drunk driving which is widely accepted as one of the major causes of road death. And you say it has nothing to do with it?

Now the other side. MNIJ what the fuck are you on about the mess private enterprise made here in Sydney?
Are you on crack?

Anyway I am off to drive on private enterprise roads at 110 km (I have to pay a couple of bucks in tolls but that is no great problem. The road is great. Unlike the surface streets in Sydney .. talk about governments not doing their bit..
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July 25, 2009 1:29pm
Cerium

Redbaiter: ” Go to the Standard idiot, you will be among like believers. They’ll like you there.”

Note that this blog is called “General Debate”, not “General Abuse”. It is not restricted to your fan club. I think there is plenty of good debate – usually you choose not to participate, you seem more inclined to abuse from the sideline. If you wanted an exclusive admiration blog you could start your own, and tell everyone to fuck off from there.
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July 25, 2009 1:31pm
backster

State owned enterprises average a 3% return on capital sure to reduce considerably once NZ Rail figures are included, and that is what the Christchurch Press and other media should be agonising about, not whether a future Government may decide to sell them to reduce debt which is costing more than double that. Socialists of course are only interested in personal profit and power, not the National Interest.
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July 25, 2009 1:52pm
Sonny Blount

The fact remains

No, your rather ridiculous opinion claims

that the biggest fall in the accident and death rate is two fold. One is clamping down on Alcohol and driving….ie Booze busses. (A mate of mine had to close his hotel on State highway one when the drinking culture started changing – because of the booze busses) and fast emergency response for survivability in accidents.

Like I said before, you claim that the improvement is because of controls placed on the people, and the superior wisdom of those rules, when it is mainly due to improvements in technology.

If drivers are to be blamed as not responsible enough to drive, this argument must be supported by some facts. The road toll does not support this.

driver on both cases cut the corner because they were going to fast

I am not advocating increasing the speed limit on winding roads. Increase it on the straights and motorways, straighten the windy roads. I’m not suggesting120k around hairpins.
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July 25, 2009 2:06pm
MT_Tinman

hubris (30) Vote: Add rating 0 Subtract rating 2 Says:
July 25th, 2009 at 1:00 pm

# MT_Tinman (331) Vote: Add rating 1 Subtract rating1 Says:
July 25th, 2009 at 11:18 am

The piss poor standard of driving in New Zealand (and it is piss poor!) is caused by the nanny-state over-policing of the roads not the cause of the nanny state over-policing of the roads.

So…how do you come to that conclusion?

More likely reasons for shit driving (conclusions plucked out of my own arse, of course, as it seems to be what you just did):
1. The driver training is shit;
2. The roads are shit;
3. People’s attitude to risk is shit;
4. The cars are shit, and are too powerful for the drivers.

The question first.

Experience.

NZ drivers are piss poor drivers because they can be piss poor drivers.

Piss poor drivers simply do not survive in places where good driving is a requirement (note; damned near anywhere in the civilised world with reasonable sized populations.).

I agree with your first three points (the fourth is a bullshit excuse for the other three).

Points 1 & 3 back up my original post, 2 is allowed to happen because of my original suggestion.
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July 25, 2009 2:10pm
Sonny Blount

You are quote road toll as accident figures, so the road does not actually reflect the actual accident figures which has gone up quite a lot simply because of more cars on the road for one. but quoting road toll does not equate to the whole argument of productivity.

This is uncannily similar to the arguments put forward by climate-change nutters who refuse to acknowledge temperature data as a rebuttal to their argument.

843 in 1973 to 366 in 2008. With the increase in traffic on the roads you are looking at a road toll today of less than a quarter of what it was when the current speed limits were introduced.

What would in your opinion be required before the speed limit could be raised to 120kmh (again not across every piece of road in NZ, just the wide, straight bits) ?
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July 25, 2009 2:19pm
hubris

@MT_Tinman
July 25th, 2009 at 2:10 pm

Thanks for the full explanation. You know drivers are bad because of over-policing…just because you know. Glad you cleared that one up.

Is your view that roads should be made more dangerous (by removing the police who remove risks from the road e.g. bad drivers), so that eventually driver skill has to increase to avoid all the risks that will still be on the roads because you took away all the cops? Sort of like Charles Darwin meets Death Race 2000?
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July 25, 2009 2:42pm
Redbaiter

For AGatha, and all of the other arrogant smug pseudo-liberals.

http://bighollywood.breitbart.com/tslagle/2009/07/24/john-stewart-poll/
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July 25, 2009 4:58pm
Alan Wilkinson

SB, I think you are pandering to the delusion that speed limits have any relationship to the safe speed. They don’t.

Roads have curves, intersections, traffic buildups, sunstrike, very slow vehicles, animals, moronic drivers, overwide loads, children, etc, etc.

Drivers have to be capable of judging safe speeds for the conditions. Speed limits contribute almost nothing to that judgement. End of story.
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July 25, 2009 5:16pm
Hurf Durf

The water’s coming over the bowline of the SS Obummer. His healthcare reform won’t get passed before August and the Blue Dogs are grumbling about a lack of engagement, he’s slandered an innocent police officer on live TV, the apology tour is failing and the “Cairo effect” was just nausea and vomiting, they’re stepping away from their support of would-be dictator Manuel Zelaya and to top it all off, his approval ratings have farted below 50% for the first time and the independents are jumping off the ship after realising that, yes, he really is a high-tax blame-the-West-first leftard. It probably won’t be too long before the SS Obummer sinks below the waves.

On a lighter note, Ford have posted a profit for the first time in four quarters. Thanks to that bailout, no dou- oh wait.
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July 25, 2009 5:48pm
Steve

Sonny Blount at 11.45am:

“The limits of technology improve over time

Computers get faster
Communication gets faster
Wealth increases
Lifespans get longer
Planes get faster
Boats get faster
So does transport, we should aim for it and plan for it

How many other production processes have not sped up for 40 years?”

Have Public Servants sped up? They have all of the above tools and they do produce something right?
Ever tried to get a Public Servant to do something fast so it will make something else easier?
They will make up production loss in lieu of transport issues the place where most Public Servants work?
NZ could do with some speed here huh?
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July 25, 2009 6:10pm
hubris

Steve (357) Vote: Add rating 0 Subtract rating 0 Says:
July 25th, 2009 at 6:10 pm

Have Public Servants sped up?

When they back-pedal, perhaps? And definitely when they spin.
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July 25, 2009 6:12pm
philu

red has linked you to a petulant/neurotic american rightwinger..who dosen’t find jon stewart ‘funny’..

..and can’t understand why anyone would/could..

..(he ..himself..is inadvertantly hilarious..)

really..!

..go and read it..!

..he has an inferiority complex the size of a mac truck..

..and..

..i’m not sure what red was trying to prove with this link..

..(maybe that he knows how to link..?..)

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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July 25, 2009 6:21pm
kaya

I’m going to Great Barrier Island next week, anyone know what size crescent I need to check the propeller is on properly?
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July 25, 2009 6:35pm
starboard

..your up late philwhore…I thought all pedo’s had to be in bed by 6pm…
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July 25, 2009 6:40pm
Steve

The nuts on the Barrier fit any tool you have, just a matter of application.
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July 25, 2009 6:47pm
Hurf Durf

From a petulant/neurotic New Zealand leftwinger such as yourself, phool, that must a compliment.
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July 25, 2009 6:58pm
philu

reid..do you have that link again for that prophets/nomads article/piece..?

ta..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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July 25, 2009 7:07pm
Manolo

“I thought all pedo’s had to be in bed by 6pm…”

As a rule, yes. But there is always a late batch to cook / bake. It’s called unexpected customer demand.
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July 25, 2009 7:10pm
kaya

Steve – more nuts in Wellington than you’ll ever see on the Barrier!!
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July 25, 2009 7:48pm
Cerium

“As the saying goes, the most dangerous place you can be is between a grizzly sow and her cub,” said longtime Alaska Republican operative Roy Burkhart. “But now I have to change that — it would be between Palin and a television camera.”

Burkhart said he advised Palin that publicly discussing details of ongoing ethics probes could violate state law. “She didn’t listen,” he said. “It’s how she created her political career, by trying high-profile Republican public officials in the media.”

Hoist by own petard?
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July 25, 2009 8:08pm
Hurf Durf

Crazy Catherine Delahunty twittered/twattered/shittered/whatever “If you want to know the horrible act party education agenda google Bunnythorpe address heather. Roy”

So I did and I found this: http://www.act.org.nz/news/seeking-the-best-for-our-children

“National and ACT in Government want to provide parents with greater freedom to send their children to the school of their choice based on educational quality, school ethos, and the needs of their children – not based on central planning or a particular ideology. Education should be a network of provision that strives for excellence in all sectors – whether that is state-run or independent.

Under the Education ACT of 1877 education was to be free, secular and compulsory for children aged seven-13. Today the Government funds education for students aged five-19. But nowhere is it written that the Government must provide the education outcomes, own education property or even employ the teachers and staff.

…

I see no impediment to the Government contracting private organisations to provide education – so long as that provision is cost-effective, performs well and is of a high quality. Providing choice means providing options for parents and students – a ‘one size fits all’ State-run model provides only one option which, by its very nature, offers no choice at all.

…

I believe that parents have the right to choose what is best for their children’s education and that – far from creating barriers – the role of Government should be to encourage choice, and nurture an environment where the best outcomes for students are paramount. An environment with a level playing field that encourages every student to reach their potential. A strong, vibrant and healthy school sector is critical to the success of this goal.”

Getting in the way of indoctrinating children with environmentally-friendly socialism? No wonder Krazy Kat is tossing and turning in her straw bed.
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July 25, 2009 8:31pm
Redbaiter

There is precedent for Obama’s fraudulent US citizen status.

It relates to former President Alberto Fujimori of Peru.

When he ran for President and served as President, opposition people dug and came up with evidence that he was not even born in Peru (a constitutional requirement) but rather in Japan.

His backers denied this vehemently, but Fujimori in the end did a runner.

He was later detained in Chile, eventually sent back to Peru and ended up being sentenced to 7 years in prison.
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July 25, 2009 9:00pm
Hurf Durf

To be fair to Fujimori, he helped to crush the Marxist terrorist groups that had reared their ugly heads in the 1980s.
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July 25, 2009 9:10pm
ephemera

@Redbaiter

Do you think Obama owns a passport? If you do, how do you think he obtained it?
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July 25, 2009 9:14pm
Hurf Durf

While people like Kapital and philu still exist, I’m going to post this link to demonstrate that their precious socialism is in fact regressive and backward, and will keep on doing so until they and the millions of other deadheads get it into their thick skulls.

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/BUSINESS/07/14/north.korea.capitalism/
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July 25, 2009 9:35pm
Paul G. Buchanan

Clarification: Fuyimori was convicted of human rights violations (by organising death squads) and sentenced to 25 years in absentia for that crime. The defeat of the (Maoist, not Marxist) Sendero Luminoso guerrillas (who have just re-appeared) was not so much due to what he did but to Sendero’s tactical mistakes and good intelligence and counter-insurgency tactics by the Peruvian military and its foreign and domestic security partners. Fujimori was returned to Peru from Chile last year and is serving his 25 year term, and has just received an additional 7 year term for bribery. His parents emigrated from Japan to Peru when he was a toddler, and the deception about his birthplace was orchestrated by a wide swathe of the Nisei community in Peru, who were initially proud of his achievements but now repudiate him because of his subsequent behaviour. The Japanese government, which initially helped him flee Peru, eventually withdrew its writ of protection when confronted with Interpol arrest warrants, which is when Fujimori made the move to Chile (hoping to garner cross-border support that would prevent his extradition to Peru. That did not work.) Also, BTW, he tried to rewrite Peru’s constitution with regard to his re-election, which is what ultimately led to his demise. He is no role model, and the comparison with Obama is preposterous.
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July 25, 2009 9:38pm
nickb

haha hear hear hurf.
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July 25, 2009 9:56pm
Redbaiter

The confusion over Fujimori’s birth place was AFAIK, not ever fully cleared up, given that there was considerable intrigue afoot given the involvement of his Security chief, who among other things, was alleged to have forged or otherwise arranged for Fujimori’s certificate to demonstrate he was born in Peru. Later, in attempt to avoid extradition, even Fujimore claimed he was in fact born in Japan.

Nobody is comparing Fujimori to Obama. (Not at this stage anyway.) There is some similarity in the intrigue over the birth certificate.
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July 25, 2009 10:15pm
Redbaiter

Story on Birth Certificate changes dramatically-

Initially, Hawaiian Health Officials had claimed the Birth Certificate was on file and that they had seen it. Leftists were touting this prior to the election as proof Obama was born in America, even though the official never said this.

WND report-

Gov. Linda Lingle instructed the Hawaii Department of Health to make sure no one in the press obtains access to Obama’s original birth certificate. Lingle’s letter to WND made clear that the original doctor-generated and hospital-released birth certificate on file with the state’s health department would be released to the press if Obama so requested – but to date the candidate has made no such request.

ABC report prior to the election-

“There have been numerous requests for Sen. Barack Hussein Obama’s official birth certificate. State law (Hawai‘i Revised Statutes §338-18) prohibits the release of a certified birth certificate to persons who do not have a tangible interest in the vital record,” DOH Director Dr. Chiyome Fukino said.

Fukino said she and the registrar of vital statistics, Alvin Onaka, have personally verified that the health department holds Obama’s original birth certificate.

“Therefore, I as Director of Health for the State of Hawai‘i, along with the Registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee and maintain these type of vital records, have personally seen and verified that the Hawai‘i State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures,” Fukino said.

Now, CNN is claiming this-

CNN Cheif Jon Klein asked researchers to dig into the question of why Obama couldn’t produce the original birth certificate. The researchers contacted the Hawaii Health Dept. and confirmed that paper documents were discarded in 2001 when the department went paperless. That reportedly includes Pres. Obama’s original birth certificate.

Unless the document the Health Officials claimed was Obama’s “original” certificate was a copy or a digital record, then one of these claims has to be incorrect.

The mainstream media lied through their teeth on the forged Bush National Guard papers, and only admitted forgery when there was no other possible option.

What a shame that we don’t have that paragon of objectivity and trust Dan Rather to look in to this matter.
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July 25, 2009 10:21pm
Paul G. Buchanan

I should also note that Fujimori was a pro-market ideologue who used his ideological beliefs to curry favour with the US and target unionists for extra-judicial rendition and “disappearance” because they happened to be Leftists who opposed his economic project. Hence the death squads.
How do I know this? I was working for the US government at the time, and was intimately familiar with the intel and after-action reports of the time. He got a pass in those days because he was “anti-communist.” But as far as anti-communist goes, so were/are Hitler, Franco, Mussolini, Michelleti (Honduras) Fujimori and–dare I mention him the same breath–the entities channeling Joe McCarthy on this forum known as (aka) Ratbuggered, Murray, Huffy, Manolo and assorted other fluffers. The common denominator of the latter is their bark is equivalent to their distance from the anti-commie fight.
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July 25, 2009 11:42pm
reid

reid..do you have that link again for that prophets/nomads article/piece..?

Lucky I listened in, eh?

Looks like it’s getting interesting. Not often Paul resorts to fightin talk… Goody
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July 26, 2009 12:03am
lloydois

How tragic.

Go away for a month and come back to find Redbaiter still drivelling on about Obama’s birth certificate.

What next? Sarah for President.
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July 26, 2009 2:00am

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