General Debate 18 October 2009

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billyborker

One more step down the road to the Surveillance Society.

Thanks jonkey

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10603539

THE BILL
* Removes right to silence for person suspected of having evidence in crime with three or more suspects.
* Widens provision for searches without warrant.
* Allows copying of material stored on computers and remote searches of computers.
* Increases covert investigative powers of the Commerce Commission, the Reserve Bank, Customs and Ministries of Agriculture and of Fisheries.
* Gives power to detain anyone at scene of search.
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October 18, 2009 8:21am
Viking2

About time.He.Why can’t we have Gen Debate at 6am. Automatic setup. Just for us working guys.

More serious matters of good common sencse.

Secret ACC plan to charge all victims $100
GRAHAME ARMSTRONG – Sunday Star Times
Last updated 05:00 18/10/2009
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Every accident victim would pay the first $100 of the cost of their ACC claim, and injured workers would lose thousands of dollars in income compensation under secret plans to cut costs at the state insurer.

The Sunday Star-Times has obtained a shopping list of Accident Compensation Corporation proposals to pare back compensation entitlements as it deals with a $4.8 billion blowout.

The list justifies the worst fears of compensation recipients, particularly those who have been on the scheme long-term. While ACC Minister Nick Smith insists that the government will never dismantle the no-fault public-owned insurance scheme, the proposals obtained by the Star-Times suggest otherwise.

The ACC’s hidden agenda:

* Introduce a $100 excess on every claim.
* Reduce income compensation from 80% to 70% after one year and 60% after two.
* Impose a two-year limit on compensation for soft tissue injuries, such as back pain.
* Introduce wider surveillance powers for ACC investigators to stamp out fraud.
* Legislate to make it easier to get workers back to work.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/2975449/Secret-ACC-plan-to-charge-all-victims-100
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October 18, 2009 8:21am
Viking2

This months TUI advert.

Govt not looking at ways to increase tax. Yeah Right.
Sunday, 18, Oct, 2009 6:37AM

The government is denying it is looking at ways to increase taxes in an effort to balance the books.
The Finance Minister kept his cards close to his chest in a speech to chartered accountants about the progress of the Tax Working Group.
It is due to report back before Christmas.
Bill English says the government is not looking at raising taxes, and the working group’s job is to explore ways of making the system more efficient.
He says too much of the economy has been built on excessive spending, funded by borrowing.
Mr English says the group’s findings will be mulled over in the New Year.

We will believe English when we see the detail. Given his propensity to play with the truth over his own affairs I don’t have much faith in his announcements.
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October 18, 2009 8:23am
Viking2

Lots of gripping stories today.

Here’s one to get you excited.

Minister flies gang bosses to secret meeting
By TIM HUME – Sunday Star Times
Last updated 05:00 18/10/2009

Pita Sharples: ‘They [gangs] are Maori. They are our children and our nephews, whether we like it or not.’
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The government stands accused of sending mixed messages in its war on P-producing criminals following revelations senior Mongrel Mob and Black Power members were flown to Auckland at taxpayers’ expense for a secret hui with a minister.

At least one drug kingpin, with convictions for manufacturing methamphetamine in a multimillion-dollar drug operation, was among those present at the meeting at Te Puni Kokiri’s Auckland office in March, which Maori Affairs Minister Pita Sharples opened by telling the 16 assembled gang heads there were “new rules here – respect”, and asking about their gripes in getting assistance from government agencies.

Sharples also congratulated the gangsters on decreasing gang violence. “I need to thank you for that. I want to acknowledge that. Parliament sure hasn’t. They say `I’m not talking to a gang member’,” he told the hui.

“Why are we fighting whakapapa against whakapapa? There’s so much enemy that is not brown.”

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/2975445/Minister-flies-gang-bosses-to-secret-meeting
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October 18, 2009 8:26am
dad4justice

“ The proposed law widening enforcement authorities’ powers of search and surveillance needs more safeguards.”

billy borker – what a load of rot. If you got nothing to hide from law enforcement officials then you will not be affected by this proposed legalisation. I think it’s a good idea as it allows the authorities to go after the financial power base that controls organized crime so that makes opponents to this bill supporters of gangsters. At present gangs run our prisons and laugh at police ( cuddle up to the Maori Party) but when the steel cap is on the other foot cops can kick some serious gang butt. Surely that is in the best interests of a SAFE and balanced society, surely the public don’t deserve to be intimidated by these callous thugs? The privacy commission is just another expensive socialist white elephant.
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October 18, 2009 8:36am
Fletch

Just looking at the poll to the right about political systems.
No checkbox for the Swiss system, with 100 day moratoriums on legislation?
There’s a big article about it i the latest Investigate.

Seems like a good system to me. It stops the ramming through of legislation.
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October 18, 2009 8:45am
billyborker

Crap Peter, absofuckinglute billfuckingshit.

As I have nothing to hide, I also have nothing to prove and am entitled to live free from intereference. THAT is the essence of living in a free society, something lost on you, the Nationalsta Government and its right wing kiwiblog cheer leaders.
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October 18, 2009 8:46am
mickysavage

What I would like to know is …

Where is my tax cut? John Key promised me one …

[DPF: You got a pretty massive one on 1 April]
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October 18, 2009 8:48am
Viking2

Mic key;

Which you either had or don’t qualify for.
Now if you are arguing that a lot more was promised (which many of us do), then you would have an argument to uphold.
You are as duplicitous as your prehistoric namesake.
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October 18, 2009 8:55am
Glutaemus Maximus

mickeysavage.

You seemed to have forgotten to mention your cycle path fetish?

You must be loving the Polls on National/Keys popularity?

Suck it up boy!!

Had the criminals Klark and Kullen not spiked the ACC account, and wasted a billion plus on toy rail, then the genuine taxpayers of this country would have gotten more slack.

It is all through the Fiscal Tomfoolery of the number blind Labour Party.
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October 18, 2009 9:03am
mickysavage

Viking2

I was trying to point out the hypocrisy of the current Government who talked about corruption and deception, got elected on a bunch of lies and then did not do what they said they would. As well as that they have or are

1. Gutted the ETS and created a $70b debt I and all other taxpayers will have to pay. This is a lose-lose, attempts to reduce greenhouse gasses will fail and the state will have to write a significant cheque each year.
2. Gutted the Cullen fund. Retirement is going to be that much more difficult.
3. Kneecapped Kiwisaver which was a long term tax cut to ordinary kiwis as well as a means (the only current means) to persuade Kiwis to save more.
4. In the process of gutting ACC. Private insurers will charge much more for providing less comprehensive and more contestable coverage.
5. Been engaged in all sorts of rorts on the public purse. Just look at the actions of Blinglish and Lee and Heatley and Worthless and …

What a rabble. Role on 2011.

[DPF: Yep I wish it was 2011 already]
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October 18, 2009 9:05am
LUCY

V2 I read that story about the Minister flying in the gang heads for a meeting and it pissed me off . The part that got me especially was ”

“asking about their gripes in getting assistance from government agencies.

Sharples also congratulated the gangsters on decreasing gang violence. “I need to thank you for that. I want to acknowledge that. Parliament sure hasn’t. They say `I’m not talking to a gang member’,” he told the hui.

“Why are we fighting whakapapa against whakapapa? There’s so much enemy that is not brown.”

I have just one question for Key and his government for this and all the times you have shafted us since you have been in power, WHY?
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October 18, 2009 9:06am
Thrash Cardiom

“billy borker – what a load of rot. If you got nothing to hide from law enforcement officials then you will not be affected by this proposed legalisation.”

Of course no Government has ever taken advantage of or abused such wide ranging powers, have they?
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October 18, 2009 9:07am
dad4justice

That is another point Thrash, can we trust law enforcement officials? Can you trust a socialist government? The list is endless you get my drift.
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October 18, 2009 9:09am
Pete George

Can’t you tell right from left Fletch?
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October 18, 2009 9:09am
muppet

Hui with gang leaders. Sharples addressed the gang leaders “as Maori leaders, not gang members”.

WTF? Maori leaders? Leaders of a bunch if dysfunctional arseholes who happen to be Maori. But Maori Leaders…FFS.

More…

“That’s not to say Sharples had everyone nodding their heads in agreement. It was more like being called into the headmaster’s study.”

What, for six of the best? Idiot. Those Maori Leaders are really going to take note of a Headmaster.

The one trick pony that is currently National have got to start getting better. Rampant serious misjudgments – yet again, not a good look (forget the substance it is only the look that counts these days).
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October 18, 2009 9:15am
Thrash Cardiom

“Can you trust a socialist government?”

Given the international track record I’d re-phrase that as “Can you trust any government?”
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October 18, 2009 9:17am
peterwn

billyborker – right of silence grew out of the era of the rack and thumbscrew. Now that both are obsolete, the reasoning behind the right of silence has ceased.
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October 18, 2009 9:20am
Viking2

Mic Key
Are you describing the Labour liars?

The ets and all that surrounds it is a crock of shit. Climate Change took over from Global Warming because the globe stopped warming but climates never stop changing. Typical of the mind games played with weasel words by the lefty socialists.

The Cullen fund is and remains a compulsory rort and the only fund that has returned an even half decent return has been Hujich. Directed of Course by Don Brash and John Banks and others. They know how to look after other peoples money. The socialists and the ticket clippers in the other outfits fail the test and will fail to make any retirement funds available because inflation will do as it always does, rip their heart out.
(Along with various management rorts.)
One mans tax cut was another mans tax increase. Was not applied to everyone equally, was not affordable to everyone equally and was compulsory for an employer to fund. Employers have to compete in the world. High costs equal jobs lost.

Acc is an appalling mess. It is badly run, is again compulsory, has so many failings in its fairness of delivery and has no cost control but open access to everyone with out everyone contributing. I posted earlier about some suggestions, one of which was a minimum excess. What a good idea. Get rid of the trifling accidents that should reasonably be ones personal care. The last experience was that private insurers were better, cheaper and much more successful at getting rehabilitation results. Only the socialist dogma of Clark and Cullen destroyed that to everyone’s detrement.

Rorts I agree about but look and see what went before. At least now when someone exposes those rorts they are not immediately hounded by security police and anti terrorist squads or snarlingly put down by the likes of Clark. At least we haven’t had legislation passed in the dead of the night by co conspirators to legalize the rorts that are exposed. Shouldn’t need to remind you of things like election spending, whining Peters, Owen Glen, pledge cards and so on. Indeed just today DPF has blogged on the socialist Browns already slippery election spending and an election hasn’t even be called yet.

time you got out a bit instead of consulting the Labour Party Handbook.
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October 18, 2009 9:25am
philu

you righties bang on about getting the state out of yr lives..

and ‘personal-freedoms’…

yet yr govt has just increased the surveillance powers of the police by a quantum -leap..

has shifted the burden of proof of ‘paying for property/assets’..from ‘the proceeds of crime’..

from the state to the individual..

and is now removing a foundation stone of personal rights/liberties..

namely..the right to silence..

(any thoughts on this..?..)

anyway to explain these howling contradictions ..

..in what you say you ‘believe’….?

..and what you actually do..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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October 18, 2009 9:51am
mawm

Sharples’ meeting with a bunch of common criminals – and showing them respect – needs prompt and unequivocal condemnation by Key. Time to show us some spine John.
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October 18, 2009 9:52am
philu

of course..!..that’s aside from the ‘if you’ve got nothing to hide..you’ve got nothing to worry about’ bullshit excuse for the tearing away of our rights/liberties..

done with nary a whimper from you lot..

eh..?

bah..!

eh..?

your bullshit is really not worth the paper it is wiped on..

eh..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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October 18, 2009 9:57am
Simon

Philu thinks national are righties.
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October 18, 2009 9:59am
Thrash Cardiom

National think National are righties 🙂
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October 18, 2009 10:01am
philu

now now..luvvies..!

this is all done with the connivance/support of act..

or ..aren’t they ‘really righties’..either..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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October 18, 2009 10:08am
nickb

Lol philu don’t lump us all in with National, they are about as right as John Minto.
I for one, philu, despise any law that takes away our civil liberties, and this one looks very dangerous to me.

Now that I’ve cleared that up philu, a question for you. Where was your outrage over the EFA? Or are infringing our civil liberties ok if it stops “rich pricks” donating money, are infringing civil liberties OK if the commies do it? I don’t hear you slamming the greens and the left over this.
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October 18, 2009 10:18am
Robert Winter

It was traditional that the Left used to implode on matters of principle. It is fascinating to see the Right jockeying for the status of ‘more Right’, or ‘more principled Right’. National seem to be disappointing the Right’s extremists, and Mr Hide is also disappointing them. But extremes are unelectable, which is why Mr Key is leader and, to be fair, enjoying the polls (for now). The Left would, in some ways, be pleased if the extremes reflected above seized control of the government – the one-term prognosis offered by Ms O’Sullivan would be fulfilled.
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October 18, 2009 10:19am
Redbaiter

This isn’t Kiwiblog- its Philublog. No wonder commenst are down. Borker and Ure. The most boring dumbfucks this side of the black stump.
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October 18, 2009 10:21am
noskire

I wonder what the insurance implications will be if you have a crash whilst using your cellphone.
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October 18, 2009 10:25am
Viking2

http://www.nzcpr.com/guest168.htm

Digest this.
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October 18, 2009 10:35am
Yvette

I have perhaps missed some points made already in the resurrected ACC debate, but has anyone as yet explained – in a no-blame system as this is – why a motorcyclist should pay more than the driver of a car? Is a motorcyclist indeed more at fault or to blame after all?

Noskire – There you go: likely no pay out if you crash while indulging in the criminal activity of talking on a cell phone while driving, but you’re likely quite OK if you prang your car [and yourself] because you were perving at some girl you were passing at the time?
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October 18, 2009 10:36am
Manolo

“Time to show us some spine John.”

Hell could freeze over first.

When comes to tolerate Maori Party antics and misdemeanours Key has Job’s patience and will do nothing. It’s the political price this “brave” politician will pay to pass ACC and ETS legislation.

To hell with the voters, as long as Key can maintain his grip on power.
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October 18, 2009 10:41am
malcolm

Sharples secret hui with leaders of gangs whose initiations can include; killing, savage beating, gang rape, and other serious crimes.

Sharples congratulates them on decreasing gang violence. Strokes their delicate egos; parliament doesn’t understand you good chaps. Wants to hear their gripes about getting assistance from government agencies. Doesn’t dwell on their criminal methamphetamine empire.

Is this the Maori renaissance that Pita has in mind? A country run by criminal gangs and ‘hard’ men, with collusion from idiot politicians?

Sharples: “They [gangs] are Maori. They are our children and our nephews, whether we like it or not.” Piss off Pita. If you can’t lock those dicks up, then lock yourself up. You’re almost as dangerous.
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October 18, 2009 10:43am
Manolo

“[DPF: You got a pretty massive one on 1 April]”

It that’s massive, I can only weep at the thught of small tax cuts. Shame to the National government for reneging on its electoral promise.

This Government should apply the same pragmatism invoked to remove the tax cuts to its overall economic strategy, i.e., cut expenditure, overhaul of the welfare state, ACC reform, etc.

[DPF: The tax cuts were around $1.5 billion a year of revenue foregone – that is indeed quite large. Overall 80% of the tax cuts pledged got delivered and it would have been nice to get the full 100% but it would be nice not to have a surplus turn into a $10 billion deficit]
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October 18, 2009 10:46am
Pete George

Gang members or not, if there are no current charges against and no conviction then they can’t be locked up. So doesn’t it make sense to try and encourage them to moderate their behaviour. Just abusing and marginalising them is not likely to improve anything.
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October 18, 2009 10:49am
malcolm

[DPF: You got a pretty massive one on 1 April]

Massive? What about negative? Don’t be disingenuous DPF. Has the tax-take as a % of GDP gone up or down since National came to power?

[DPF: We will not know until we get the 2009/10 crown accounts in late 2010. But without the tax cuts it would be around 2% of GDP higher]
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October 18, 2009 10:50am
nickb

“This Government should apply the same pragmatism invoked to remove the tax cuts to its overall economic strategy, i.e., cut expenditure, overhaul of the welfare state, ACC reform, etc.”

Agreed Manolo. I’ve been thinking how ironic it is lately that Don Brash was attacked as a “hollow man”. If Don Brash is a hollow man, what do you call Key and English? Brash was the most principled politician we’ve had for a fair while..
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October 18, 2009 10:52am
Viking2

DPF. that is disingenuous. Yep there were tax cuts, but they were immediately clawed back by higher Govt. charges via their various affiliate organizations such as power companies, petrol taxes etc etc. not to mention the rise in GST collected from higher costs of living. No one seriously believes that food costs have gone down, (in case you aren’t sure about that ask almost any housewife.).
The point really is that tax cuts are wasted unless action is also taken to reduce the tax take. i.e. reduce the need for those taxes in the first place. Your favorite son yesterday trotted out the bill board line (which I posted above) that the Govt. wasn’t looking to increase taxes. No but he sure as hell will allow the govt. affiliates to collect it for him.
Given the disorganized behavoir of the Nats over RWC, Gang bosses etc they will have to get their shit together if they are ever going to make more than one term. They should rehire H2. She had better control of the PM’s office than these guys.
The Maori Party is going to shaft them. There is a reason for the term “cunning as Maori dog.” You pinkies are finding out about that stuff.

[DPF: People’s increased wages cover inflation. Tax cuts are not about covering inflation. They are about giving people more of their own money back, and having less Govt spending than would have been the case without them]
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October 18, 2009 11:03am
philu

nckb..i made a personal submission to the select committee..against the efb..

and railed long and hard against it at whoar..

(you really do just talk utter shit..don’t you..?..)

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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October 18, 2009 11:05am
philu

“..Brash was the most principled politician we’ve had for a fair while….”

and that’s fucken hilarious..!

the architect of our debt/housing-bubbles…

the craven acolyte of the chicago school of economics..

that fatally-flawed economic-ideology..

that has brought us to the sorry place we are now..

on our fucken knees..

(this is who you ‘admire’..eh numbnuts..?..)

as i said..

‘fucken hilarious..!’..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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October 18, 2009 11:09am
malcolm

Gang members or not, if there are no current charges against and no conviction then they can’t be locked up. So doesn’t it make sense to try and encourage them to moderate their behaviour. Just abusing and marginalising them is not likely to improve anything.

It hasn’t worked before. Also, and perhaps more importantly, it makes the long suffering NZ public think that the government has given up on enforcing laws and that Pita Sharples would be happy to see a NZ where gangs are considered a de-facto branch of government and law enforcement, and he’ll be the glue which holds this marvellous state-funded renaissance of Maori culture together.

Pita Sharples is a fool. And his ideas will be detrimental to all New Zealanders.
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October 18, 2009 11:10am
Pete George

So what are you suggesting as an alternative? Lock up anyone deemed a gang member regardless?
Should anyone who has had past gang connections be excluded from any role related to the government?

What Sharples is doing now hasn’t been done before, not the same way in the same situation. He is criticised if he does nothing about “the Maori problem”, and he is criticised if he tries.
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October 18, 2009 11:16am
stuarts-burgers

Yvette 10.35
The Acc is set up with a number of different income streams and accidents are allocated to these different accounts, Hurt at work Employers account, Non earner ( child retired beneficiary) non earners account ( direct from consolidated fund) Motorist from motorist account from rego, Motorcyclist from motorcyclist account from rego. Problem with Motorcycle account income $16million outgoings $72 million there is a need to catch up. Problem with motorcyclist account is that there is a huge number of non road going motorcycles that are not regoed and so do not contribute,. Bikes such as Farm Bikes, Quads,Trail Bikes, Moto Cross Bikes etc. If all motor bikes owners paid a rego and an ACC levy on their bikes the levels of levy would plummet
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October 18, 2009 11:17am
malcolm

So what are you suggesting as an alternative? Lock up anyone deemed a gang member regardless?
Should anyone who has had past gang connections be excluded from any role related to the government?

There’s two excellent ideas.

ACT’s three-strikes policy would certainly help as well.

What Sharples is doing now hasn’t been done before, not the same way in the same situation. He is criticised if he does nothing about “the Maori problem”, and he is criticised if he tries.

Muldoon did.
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October 18, 2009 11:21am
jims_whare

phil you should be happy that the cops havent exercised their search powers under the Misuse of Drugs Act……better buy youself a few house fans aye? If I were you that is what I would be worried about – though maybe they will be listening into your prepay calls and texts skiting about how you are ripping off the welfare system (with these new powers) so maybe you need to sqwark on about them. If you put as much motivation into finding yourself a job as you do moaning on kiwiblog then you would no longer be the pot smoking bludger you are and you could begin to earn some repect from other hard working citizens currently pissed off having to subsidise your neo-hippy lifestyle. Also you would be setting a good example for your kid(s) to follow as they grow up so that they do not end up going down the same deadbeat road that you have.
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October 18, 2009 11:23am
backster

PHILU……..You forgot to add chairman of the Investment Company with the highest rate of return in the country.
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October 18, 2009 11:29am
reid

“the architect of our debt/housing-bubbles…the craven acolyte of the chicago school of economics..that fatally-flawed economic-ideology..”

So phil, pray explain precisely how Hayek’s economics were responsible for the debt bubble. Silly me, I thought the root causes were lack of regulatory oversight and human greed.
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October 18, 2009 11:29am
Pete George

Muldoon 25 years ago is a lot different to Sharples now. Don’t people say that Maori should find solutions to their own problems? At least Sharples is trying.

There’s two excellent ideas.

You would lock people up due to past associations, even though no laws had been found to have broken? How long ago? Lock them up for how long?
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October 18, 2009 11:37am
reid

“You would lock people up due to past associations, even though no laws had been found to have broken? How long ago? Lock them up for how long?”

Australia is getting real tough on proceeds of crime. They take everything, and they also take it off any family members that can’t prove they got it legally.

That’s one answer.
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October 18, 2009 11:42am
Yvette

Stuarts-burgers [11.17] – re ACC, my contention is still that in a no-blame system, differing levies imply blame or fault to higher rated parties, but the system is illogical – non-motor cyclists are not registered or levied at all.
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October 18, 2009 11:44am
billyborker

“Australia is getting real tough on proceeds of crime. They take everything, and they also take it off any family members that can’t prove they got it legally.”

Exactly the type of law we do NOT need, presumption of guilt, no evidence. that’s no answer in a civil society.
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October 18, 2009 11:57am
philu

“..phil you should be happy that the cops havent exercised their search powers under the Misuse of Drugs Act..”

i smoke a little pot..i don’t grow..i don’t deal..

why the fuck wd they bother..?

interesting you refer to those draconian laws tho’..

haven’t they already got enough powers..?

so..you righties are ‘all for it’..eh..?

your non-adherence to supposed beliefs make you as big hypocrites..

..as carnivorous greens are..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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October 18, 2009 12:14pm
philu

“…PHILU……..You forgot to add chairman of the Investment Company with the highest rate of return in the country…”

so..he’s still feeding off the bubbles…

this time this ‘false-recovery’-bubble..

this is to be admired..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)

[DPF: No he is not feeding off them. He is using his skills to give all those who have invested with that company more money for their retirement. Only a bludger who does not understand private savings would think this is a bad thing]
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October 18, 2009 12:17pm
malcolm

You would lock people up due to past associations, even though no laws had been found to have broken? How long ago? Lock them up for how long?

I was being a little facetious. The majority of gang members have multiple convictions. If we had a three-strikes law then more of them would be in prison for more of the time. Also if you belong to and actively participate in a gang which undertakes criminal activities, shouldn’t you be considered partly responsible for the crimes committed by that gang? Many other countries have such laws, in recognition of the fact that organised crime is hard to prosecute with conventional laws.

Someone above mentioned the proceeds of crime law. NZ has had this law for years now. Totally toothless. Most towns in NZ have at least one fortified gang headquarters. How many have been bulldozed and the land sold off under proceeds of crime law? None as far as I know.
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October 18, 2009 12:22pm
Viking2

Philu;
Given your wealth and ability to fund your own life you appear to be just the right advisor for many people, not.
So what is your net worth. i.e. the amount of money you would have if you sold everything today and if you stopped earning today (oops you don’t earn) how long could you feed cloth and house and in every way sustain yourself and those you are responsible for WITHOUT relying on others?

Yep, I thought so Nil and no more than a couple of days.
Financial Wizard that you are.
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October 18, 2009 12:45pm
malcolm

Don’t people say that Maori should find solutions to their own problems? At least Sharples is trying.

But what is Pita trying?

I’m concerned about Pita’s attitude to gangs and criminals, given that in other areas (prisons, justice system etc) he is working assiduously towards a divided New Zealand. An Us and Them New Zealand.
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October 18, 2009 12:47pm
Owen McShane

I wonder who will apologise when Al Quaeda, or some similar crew, set up a training ground for suicide bombers in New Zealand because we are the only country that pays out Accident Compensation to family members to compensate for their grief?
These days the youngsters blow up so quickly don’t they?
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October 18, 2009 12:54pm
getstaffed

From Stuff:

‘Plague’ of sex abuse in church alleged
The Exclusive Brethren Church is being rocked by accusations that it has covered up a “plague” of sexual abuse in its ranks. Last week a former member of the church, 74-year-old Clive Allen Petrie, was found guilty in Nelson of nine counts of indecently assaulting girls under 12 and one of inducing a girl under 12 to do an indecent act on him. The case involved four girls, three in the 1950s and 60s, and the fourth in the 1980s.

Good. People who are guilty of sexual abuse must have the book thrown at them. The courts will need to be careful about complainant motives though. It would be easy for past EB members to fabricate stories of sexual abuse to ‘punish’ the church for unrelated grievances.
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October 18, 2009 1:05pm
billyborker

Not really, the EB is well known as a hot house of abuse, probably second only to the holy rollers.

Or do you think courts will ignore evidence. Well, why shouldn’t they? Xtians do the same evry day. 🙂
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October 18, 2009 1:19pm
malcolm

Shocking News Alert: Controlling and Misogynistic Christian Church/Cult Revealed As Happy Hunting Ground For Sexual Abusers!

Neighbours are reported as saying “They seemed like such a nice cult, built around controlling their members lives, and keeping women in their god-given place. We just so shocked.”
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October 18, 2009 1:28pm
Murray M

“Why are we fighting whakapapa against whakapapa? There’s so much enemy that is not brown.”

If this statement is meant to imply what I think it does, Pita should have his brown arse kicked out of parliament.

Memo to John, stop pandering to this racist pack of losers.
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October 18, 2009 3:03pm
philu

“..DPF: No he is not feeding off them. He is using his skills to give all those who have invested with that company more money for their retirement. Only a bludger who does not understand private savings would think this is a bad thing]..”

so..you are quite relaxed about him/his recycling of reaganomics/thatchernomics..

..having created the situation we are in now..?

where..in twenty months..

..our economy has gone down the fucken toilet..

brash is our pol pot..

he sacrificed our economic wellbeing on the alter of his (deeply-flawed/wrong) ideologies..

(him and the fucknuckle political acolytes..of that same ‘wrong’-ideology..

he created the housing/credit bubbles..

that have totally destroyed the wealth of our middle class/country/economy….

and i am the ‘bludger’..

..eh..?

whoar..!

(‘holy clinging to the tattered-remnants of a belief..!..in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary..!..batman..!’)

and of course..you ..dpf..

..have also had your cheerleading role to fufill..eh..?

once again..

in the service of this failed/deeply-flawed ideology..

(when will the scales fall from your eyes..?..eh..?..)

oh..!..and how is the climate-change-denial going..?

had your ‘oh shit!’.moment yet..?

will you inform your knuckle-dragging acolytes/readers when you do..?

or will you ‘keep mum’ about it..?

as you did with yr knowledge the economic-meltdown was coming up..?

(had to ‘keep it quiet’ until after the election..eh..?..that one..)

phil(whoar.co.nz)

[DPF: Our banking sector came out of it far better than overseas ones, so I say we owe Brash our thanks for his role in that.

And blaming him for housing bubble is insane as when he was RB Governor he was criticised for putting interest rates up really high to dampen down inflation and the property market. You really should know your economic history.

And yes – you are an individual perfectly capable of working and paying taxes, and you have chosen for lifestyle reasons not to work and get a job, but to live off welfare. If everyone did what you did, then we would be fucked]

And finally 20 demerits for the Pol Pot comparison]
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October 18, 2009 3:11pm
Inventory2

Phillip Ure said “i smoke a little pot..i don’t grow..i don’t deal..”

I usually take Phil’s poorly-punctuated ramblings whith a truck-load of salt, but the comment above has angered me.

If Phil doesn’t grow his own dope, he must buy it. Therefore, he clearly allocates a portion of his benefit for the purchase of an illegal drug. And therein lies on of the fundamental problems which New Zealand faces.

Social Welfare benefits were never intended to be a long-term lifestyle choice, and yet that is precisely what they have become. I am appalled that Phillip Ure can go out and buy drugs – illegal drugs – with money that has come from taxes paid by myself, my wife, and other hard-working New Zealanders. I am equally appalled that “the system” allows the likes of Phillip Ure to CHOOSE to live by way of a benefit for a number of years, instead of having to go out and get a job like the rest of us have to. I would love to be able to “opt out” in the same way that Phil has, but my conscience will not let me. I have been on the bones of my arse several times through the years, but I can say with pride that I have NEVER applied for any form of benefit.

Is it any wonder that New Zealand is going backwards economically when the state pays productive people NOT to work?
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October 18, 2009 3:15pm
Razork

Congrats Mike Delany; totally deserved the call up!
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October 18, 2009 3:20pm
Kris K

getstaffed 1:05 pm,

‘Plague’ of sex abuse in church alleged.

Good. People who are guilty of sexual abuse must have the book thrown at them. The courts will need to be careful about complainant motives though. It would be easy for past EB members to fabricate stories of sexual abuse to ‘punish’ the church for unrelated grievances.

While I agree with your comment, it does appear as though, in this case, there was a serious cover up, both by the church hierarchy and even some of the women of the church which were approached by the victims.

Perhaps this sort of cover up is just as bad as the actual sexual abuse perpetrated against the victims. One really does wonder what the climate of society ~60 years ago was like in regards to all manner of sexual and other forms of abuse. That it has taken this long to come out is incredible.
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October 18, 2009 3:26pm
grumpyoldhori

Are the nats still good friends with those brethren types ?
Has Key meet them since the election ?
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October 18, 2009 3:31pm
nickb

IV2- What about school holidays!?!?!?!

Philu, only a few more years and you will be able to apply for NZ Super! You’re almost there- decades of idleness and bludging!

Not many people achieve that, but you are going to make it!

Haha. And greedy capitalists are fucking our country. Oh man..
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October 18, 2009 3:32pm
Kris K

Sharples: “Why are we fighting whakapapa against whakapapa? There’s so much enemy that is not brown.”

Imagine the outcry if a ‘white’ MP said this:
“Why are we fighting white against white? There’s so much enemy that is not white.”

It’s only ‘racist’ if a honky says it, eh?
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October 18, 2009 3:34pm
Murray M

IV2 i don’t think productive is a word that will ever describe Phil. Not only is he toking reefers paid for out of someone elses efforts, who the hell is looking after his son while he is stoned. What sort of example is he setting to his son. NZ has way too many just like him, and we read newspaper stories and view crimewatch programs about them and thier progeny.
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October 18, 2009 3:41pm
nickb

I am always highly amused at philu’s hysterical attacks on “right wing ideology” and “snake oil”, “voodoo economics” etc. Since when has a simple desire to get government out of our pockets and out of our lives, taking money off us so the philu’s of this world can do drugs, become some evil “ideology”?

Go somewhere else with your lies, scare tactics, fearmongering and abuse of the welfare system. And while you’re at it, stop prancing rould like a numpty predicting economic armageddon. Apart from the very clear fact that you don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about, if this day ever arrives there will be less money for bludgers like you, and you may have to EARN a living- a prospect which I am sure terrifies you, and makes me wonder why you are wishing for it.
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October 18, 2009 3:41pm
billyborker

[DPF: Our banking sector came out of it far better than overseas ones, so I say we owe Brash our thanks for his role in that.

Not true, the NZ banking sector is a subsidiary of Australia’s and Brash had no effect. The Australian banks fared better than many because the Australian “4 pillars” policy and years of easy pickings made them lazy, so they didn’t chase as hard after the speculative gains as US and UK banks. Just imagine if NZ banks were all NZ owned – I think they would have gone the same way as Iceland’s.

You’d do well to fully understand who owns the NZ economy.
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October 18, 2009 3:47pm
Owen McShane

I wonder if the Greens will latch on to this new approach fostering Greenness?

Germany: Berlin brothel cuts rates for ‘green’ customers
Posted by: “C.Patrick Zilliacus” CPZ@OS2BBS.COM cpzilliacus
Fri Oct 16, 2009 10:32 am (PDT)

http://www.wtop.com/?nid=456&sid=1787267

Berlin brothel cuts rates for ‘green’ customers October 16, 2009
– 9:51am
By MARY MacPHERSON LANE
Associated Press Writer

BERLIN (AP) – Part of Berlin’s red-light scene is going green.
One bordello, hoping to stave off falling demand in the economic
crisis, has begun offering discounts to customers who pedal
bicycles to the door.

“It’s very difficult to find parking around here, and this option
is better for our environment,” said Thomas Goetz, who owns the
brothel Maison d’Envie, or House of Desire.
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October 18, 2009 3:50pm
Kris K

Owen McShane 3:50 pm,

I wonder if the Greens will latch on to this new approach fostering Greenness?

BERLIN (AP) – Part of Berlin’s red-light scene is going green. One bordello, hoping to stave off falling demand in the economic crisis, has begun offering discounts to customers who pedal bicycles to the door.

“It’s very difficult to find parking around here, and this option is better for our environment,” said Thomas Goetz, who owns the brothel Maison d’Envie, or House of Desire.

While it may be good for the environment, I see serious repercussions for the ‘moral climate’.
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October 18, 2009 4:06pm
Hurf Durf

Here comes luddite bonkers and hopeful pricky on the side of the Islamists as per usual. Yes, it’s a concern, but I wouldn’t say no to seeing some naive enviro-communists getting a good bearing in some cold Dargaville jail cell.

In b4 bawwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.
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October 18, 2009 4:09pm
philu

hysterical..owen..everyone else carried the story days ago..

bur het..!..being a long way behind the ball is par for the cours for you..eh..?

“..And while you’re at it, stop prancing rould like a numpty predicting economic armageddon. ..”

no darling..!..it’s not me saying it..it’s people who know a fuck sake more than me..or you..

so,,it’s all ‘fixed’..?..it it..?

heh-heh..!..you really are fucken deluded..aren’t you..?

dpf said..’And blaming him for housing bubble is insane..’

he drove te credit-for-all..

and if he is so fucken clever..

why didn’t he see this crash coming..?

both he and those useless pricks at treasury..

all thru last yr..were trilling away ..’the recession will be over after christmas..’

were they being willfully deceitful..?

or are they just fools..?

who didn’t/don’t know what the fuck they are doing..?

it’s either one or the other..

eh..?

and..is it ok to compare brash to fred pot..?

he is one of pols’ cousins..

..he worked in one of the ministries..

(commandment number 11 at kiwiblog…

thou shalt not compare the ‘don’..to the ‘pot’..!

(who knew..eh..?

just as a guide..

care to post a list of other historical figures brash can’t be compared to..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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October 18, 2009 4:10pm
billyborker

“care to post a list of other historical figures brash can’t be compared to..?”

Pol Pot
Joe Stalin
Adolf Hitler
John Howard
John Key
Helen Clark

in fact, anyone at all who has had an impact on history. Brash is yesterday’s hollow man, codpiece filled with straw.
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October 18, 2009 4:14pm
philu

is tamberlane ..ok..?

quisling..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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October 18, 2009 4:14pm
philu

look..look..!..borker called him a cod-piece..!

can i call him a used condom..?

or a clapped-out dildo..?

can i..?

can i..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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October 18, 2009 4:18pm
nickb

DPF, I think we may have understood philu here, he is a Green Party member. Lets not forget Keith Locke thought Pol Pot was a top bloke, so maybe philu comparing Brash to him isnt so bad, may even be a compliment.
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October 18, 2009 4:18pm
philu

list of things you cannot call brash:

1)..an economist..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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October 18, 2009 4:20pm
Hurf Durf

Otwat flip flops on Sudan. Remember the howls of outrage about the genocide in Darfur? Those were the days.

After lengthy debate, the Obama administration has settled on a policy toward Sudan that offers a dramatically softer approach than the president had advocated on the campaign trail — but steers clear of the conciliatory tone advocated by his special envoy to the country.

The new U.S. policy, which will be formally unveiled Monday, calls for a campaign of “pressure and incentives” to cajole the government in Khartoum into pursuing peace in the troubled Darfur region, settling disputes with the autonomous government in southern Sudan and providing the United States greater cooperation in stemming international terrorism, according to administration officials briefed on the plan. It also provides Khartoum with a path to improved relations with the United States if it begins to address long-standing U.S. concerns…

In an interview last month with The Washington Post, [U.S. special envoy Scott] Gration said he wanted to give “cookies” and “gold stars” to Khartoum, infuriating human rights advocates and congressional officials.
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October 18, 2009 4:21pm
nickb

2)…a shameless, commie, unprincipled, totalitarian, nanny state, super-fund troughing, pro-EFA Green Party member…
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October 18, 2009 4:22pm
philu

yeah..dpf..it was respect/awe..

..at the success of both their scorched-earth/day-one policies..eh..?

except..cambodia is now coming out of it..

wheras..we are about to go into it..

shit..!..eh..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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October 18, 2009 4:23pm
philu

“..a shameless, unprincipled, totalitarian, nanny state, troughing,..”

cor..!..that’s national..!

to a ‘t’..eh..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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October 18, 2009 4:28pm
Inventory2

Murray M said “IV2 i don’t think productive is a word that will ever describe Phil.”

I was being generous Murray. I like to see the potential in everyone, even Phil. After all, he manages 20 posts a day on his “news aggregation service”, and although his dubious spelling and punctuation would be off-putting to many employers, I’m sure there would be a job he could do – and of course, he has a Masters degree, which is a damn sight more than I have!
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October 18, 2009 4:31pm
philu

is ‘lop top’..a suitable anagram..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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October 18, 2009 4:35pm
Owen McShane

Phil,
In 1995 Don Brash, as Governor of the Reserve Bank asked me to write a report seeking to explain why house prices were escalating so rapidly while all other sectors were more or less under control. He was concerned that if they continued to rise at such a rate the Reserve Bank would have to maintain a high interest rate longer than otherwise necessary and this would adversely affect the New ZEaland dollar etc.
I wrote the report on “the Housing Construction Component of the Consumer Price Index” which explained that councils were using the RMA to severely constrain the supply of land for housing and that hence land prices were rising, even though the actual construction of residential subdivision was falling and so was the cost of actual housing.
He has continued to warn of these adverse effects and most recently is quoted in the foreword to a Demographia report on international housing markets warning of the dangers of excessive land use regulation.
The problem is that people did not listen to my report back in 1995 and still refuse to accept the consequences of metropolitan urban limits and Smart Growth (Dense thinking) policies and so on. I am not against higher density housing – indeed I had much to do with the deregulation of land use which allowed us to build townhouses and infill houses during the seventies and eighties. But only as a means of increasing choice. The Smart Growth planners have made high density a goal rather than a matter of choice.
They are a bit late. Auckland metropolitan area is already a medium density by New World standards. Three times the density of US cities of comparative size. We are now into diminishing returns and higher costs. The ARC continues to fool people by referring to the density of the Auckland region which includes huge areas of rural land. That is why Mike Lee wants to keep Rodney and Franklin in the Super City. Otherwise his favourite statistics would be revealed for the sham they are.
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October 18, 2009 4:50pm
philu

“..and you have chosen for lifestyle reasons not to work ..”

and..i beg your pardon..?

a ‘lifestyle-choice’..?..

you must be fucken kidding..!

i am raising my son..

and have been there since he was born..

and no..i will not put him in detention-centres for the duration of any school holidays..

and it has all turned out/gone rather well..

he get’s brilliant school reports..

(i couldn’t be happier with the man he is turning into..)

and don’t regret having done it..

but a lifestyle-choice..?

really..

you don’t know fucken much about that either..?..do you..?

and while we’re at it..

how about you tell us what percentage of your income comes from the tax-payer-funded ‘trough’..?

y’know..!..for all that polling ..?

that is sooo ‘essential’..eh..?

y’know..!..just a ball-park figure..

for..say..the last five years..?

eh..?

and when the crash comes..(as you know..deep in yr bones..it is..)

will your polling-services still be in demand..?

d’yareckon..?

(i wouldn’t bank on it..eh..?..)

but that figure..?

it’d be well into seven figures..eh..?

over five years..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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October 18, 2009 4:53pm
getstaffed

grumpyoldhori – hook, line and sinker!
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October 18, 2009 4:55pm
Hurf Durf

detention-centres for the duration of any school holidays..

Is that what you think they are, phool? And here I was thinking you admired collectivist forms of raising children.
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October 18, 2009 5:09pm
reid

Er phil, how is it that hundreds of thousands of people in this country somehow manage to both work and raise kids?

Q.E.D.

Your lifestyle is a choice.

P.S. you still haven’t answered my question about how did Hayek’s economics cause the GFC. You danced around it but didn’t address it. You should have been a Liarbore Cabinet Minister.
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October 18, 2009 5:12pm
Inventory2

Phil – your lifestyle IS a choice, whether you acknowledge that or not. Most of us have to work to pay the bills and put food on the table. You however seem to have been able to con your Case Manager at WINZ to allow you to continue to sponge off the taxpayer. Realistically, there is no reason why you cannot find employment. You claim to have a Masters degree, so one can make the assumption that you have some ability to think and reason. You obviously have a computer and internet connection in your home; why then can you not work from home in some capacity, if that is what is required to meet your parental responsibilities?

I think we all know the answer to my question though. You actually don’t want to work; you are perfectly content to be a parasite, living off the hard work of others. I find that completely unacceptable. And further, if there is enough “fat” in your benefit for you to be able to purchase cannabis (still an illegal Class-C drug under New Zealand law), you are being paid too much.
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October 18, 2009 5:12pm
Patrick Starr

list of things you cannot call philu:

1)..useful..
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October 18, 2009 5:14pm
philu

nah..i was one of the early prototypes of what used to be called ‘a latch-key-kid’..

and i fucken hated it..

and i swore i wd never do that to any children of mine..

and..while deeply loved/wanted..

my son was unplanned..

i was just about to leave new zealand again..

but he stepped in..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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October 18, 2009 5:16pm
Inventory2

“and i swore i wd never do that to any children of mine..”

Phillip Ure confirms that his decision to be a career beneficiary is indeed a choice …
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October 18, 2009 5:21pm
philu

“..You obviously have a computer and internet connection in your home; why then can you not work from home in some capacity, if that is what is required to meet your parental responsibilities?..”

whaddayagot..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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October 18, 2009 5:27pm
Steve

list of things you cannot call philu:

1)..useful..
2)..hard working..
3)..caring New Zealander..
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October 18, 2009 5:28pm
philu

steve who..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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October 18, 2009 5:34pm
Viking2

You haven’t answered my questions Philu; seems about par for the course.

Philu;
Given your wealth and ability to fund your own life you appear to be just the right advisor for many people, not.
So what is your net worth. i.e. the amount of money you would have if you sold everything today and if you stopped earning today (oops you don’t earn) how long could you feed clothe and house and in every way sustain yourself and those you are responsible for WITHOUT relying on others?

Yep, I thought so Nil and no more than a couple of days.
Financial Wizard that you are.
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October 18, 2009 5:34pm
Steve

“steve who..?”
Steve that’s about to throw about 1.2kg of prime beef fillet on the BBQ.
All paid for with my hard earned money.
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October 18, 2009 5:41pm

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