General Debate 12 March 2010

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Michaels

John Key is getting seriously close to never receiving my vote again.
My mother (78) has been renting a property for the last 5 years. She has been getting a living alone allowance and a slight top up to help her cover her rent.
WINZ have now told her that this extra (after 2 years) will be cut off and have told her she must move into a council flat. My mother is a proud woman who made a silly financial mistake a few years back and lost just over one million dollars.
Make cuts sure, I’m all for it, but the elderly get fuck all as it is so go pick on someone else not the fucking easy!!!
And sure cut back on the Winnie card but leave my fucking mother alone!!!
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March 12, 2010 7:34am
Pete George

It’s hard for you mother Michael, but everyone wants their mother left alone while everything else is fixed.
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March 12, 2010 7:43am
Michaels

But a council flat Pete?!?!?!?!? Ever seen one?????
I will have her live with me before that happens and that’s something I want like a kick in the head!!!
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March 12, 2010 7:47am
Akaroa

Michaels (738) posted:’….but leave my fucking mother alone’

Charming!
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March 12, 2010 7:48am
Tim Ellis

At Red Alert Mr Mallard is crowing about flying to Auckland to attend two public meetings held by Ann Tolley on National Standards. http://blog.labour.org.nz/index.php/2010/03/12/tolleys-meetings/

What Mr Mallard omits to point out is that he covertly filmed the proceedings on his i-phone. I’m not sure what he hopes to achieve from such a thing, but it really does seem to be unhinged behaviour.
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March 12, 2010 7:50am
Luc Hansen

Oh Tim

miaoow

Tell me, did anyone ask Anne how a 25m cut in funding for head office results in more frontline services? And how a smaller staff level helps deliver frontline services?

Talk abut spinning top! She’s must be so dizzy!
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March 12, 2010 8:04am
Tim Ellis

Mr Hansen, Mr Mallard’s behaviour is very strange. I’ve never heard of a member of parliament going around secretly filming a cabinet minister before. I don’t know if the voters of wainuiomata like the idea of their MP flying to the other end of the country to do such silly things.
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March 12, 2010 8:19am
Auberon

As a taxpayer I don’t like Mr Mallard flying to Auckland to do such things. Isn’t this stretching the use of his travel perk?
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March 12, 2010 8:23am
Tassman

Open letter to the people…!

There is not much opposition from Labour because they can’t oppose the same socialist policies National is pursuing. A vote for National is a vote for Labour; give or take minor aspects. At the same time, National is quantifying a private state in the face of the people without consent. That means every social institution and assets you have been using for granted are now owned by someone else, he/she is not necessarily a ZNer.

The current proposal for a cable connection is a vision both National and Labour would never dream up because it is right on target for future developments, but their capitalist masters would never put up the funds for it. Instead both National and Labour have made their god given right to dish out punishment and impoverish the population at the same time.
All candidates and wannabes for this middle ground have been steamrolled and imprisoned, while survivors have turned independent opportunists. They still follow the issue of the day along political boundaries.

But if there is anyone who can take the people this time, it has to be Winston Peters if he is prepared to play it cool under severe pressure from the steam rollers and especially the political media.

Now, Winston Peters; your mission, should you accept it follows; ‘publicly befriend Asia and make some headway to India. Avoid USA if you can and stay local with Ossie. You are safe with that man Morgan and support his technological development, as well as building a solid economic infrastructure on energy, motor vehicles, farm and agriculture to influence employment as an outcome…

Voice the issues of the people and get an ethical adviser who is not influenced by the Maori Party, Private Business, Socialists and Destiny followers. You have already picked up the retirees vote, and you might even pick up the other end as well with students despite young National’s n Labour Green indoctrination in the classroom. But while you are certain to pick up unhappy voters from both National and Labour, the core purpose of your mission is to represent the people… This is your third and final chance!

Unlike usual messages, this one doesn’t self destruct but if you fail to achieve your goal, who knows anything could happen…’

Good Luck
Jim…
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March 12, 2010 8:27am
Luc Hansen

And Tim, you seem a bit obsessed by Trevor.

It was a public meeting, so what’s the problem?

Now, do you have an answer to my question?
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March 12, 2010 8:33am
Pete George

Michael, I have visited council flats that relatives have been glad to have. I guess they vary in quality.

I’ve just been considering my mother’s future. One obvious solution, sooner or later, is for her to move in with us, hadn’t even thought of a council flat. It’s family responsibility. Government provision should be a last resort, not an option of convenience.
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March 12, 2010 8:36am
Tim Ellis

Mr Mallard seems to be obsessed with Mrs Tolley, Mr Hansen. Covert filming of people is just plain weird for an ordinary member of the public, let alone a senior politician.
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March 12, 2010 8:44am
polemic

Please could this question be debated.

Is China a ‘potential’ military threat or not ?

Wayne Mapp says it is not, what does everyone think?
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March 12, 2010 8:54am
dime

“did anyone ask Anne how a 25m cut in funding for head office results in more frontline services? And how a smaller staff level helps deliver frontline services?”

BAHAHAHA

its a bad move! they should be pumping an additional 25m into the head office! employ even more bureaucrats! that means more employees who can meet with each other. more red tape. more JOBS!!!

its what we need.
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March 12, 2010 9:01am
jcuknz

I am familiar with a couple of council flats and I would suggest that they are comfortable places for the aged [anyone actually] to live in and it depends on the mental state of the inhabitant and the snobbery level of the family as to if they are satisfactory. One problem is that when moving from their own home the person can have too many possessions and so the flat becomes very cramped.
But if the person downsizes to what they really need in a flat it is good living. I cannot think of anything worse than moving in with my family instead of being in control of my own place writing as somebody determined to stay in my own place as long as is possible.
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March 12, 2010 9:02am
dime

polemic – depends how much oil we find!
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March 12, 2010 9:02am
Luc Hansen

Yesterday’s NZ Herald editorial comment on Iraq, as posted on Kiwiblog, seemed to me to be a bit wide of the mark.

While it’s true that we all hope (I hope, given that they are Muslim and Arab!) that Iraq can emerge from its long nightmare of being essentially a Western crude oil reservoir and plaything since 1920, the editorial attibuted the 2003 invasion and conquest to “…toppling Saddam Hussein.”

Well, actually, there was a bit more to that invasion than just “toppling” a dictator.

Think about this:

Prior to the invasion, 10 years of sanctions had caused tens, perhaps hundreds, of thousands of child deaths, many as a result of the after effects of the earlier 1991 bombing campaign prior to and after the ejection of Iraq from Kuwait, and caused the premature deaths of an unknown number of sick adults unable to access medicines.

Estimates of the death toll caused by the 2003 invasion vary widely, but 100,000 is at the lower end. But in addition, up to one million have died since as a result of counter-resistance actions by the Allies (overwhelmingly the US), terrorism aimed at expelling the Allies, and the civil war and ethnic cleansing unleashed in the by then lawless country.

Plus, there are currently over one million IDPs (Internally Displaced Persons) and about four million who have fled the country, either to greener pastures for those with the means, or to squalid refugee camps aka Palestinian refugee camps for most.

And widespread destruction of what was an impressive infrastructure.

All of the above is what is left unsaid in the weasel words: “…toppling Saddam Hussein.”
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March 12, 2010 9:02am
dime

michaels – how much is the slight top up?
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March 12, 2010 9:03am
Luc Hansen

Tim, where do you get the “covert” allegation from? And he is her direct political opponent as regards Tolley’s portfolio.

I suspect he thinks he is on to a winner. And is going all out.
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March 12, 2010 9:07am
dime

luc – Bush did the right thing for the US when he invaded Iraq. Deal.
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March 12, 2010 9:10am
eszett

# polemic (239) Says:
March 12th, 2010 at 8:54 am

Please could this question be debated.

Is China a ‘potential’ military threat or not ?

Wayne Mapp says it is not, what does everyone think?

A threat to whom?
Assuming you mean to us, I’d say no. (Why bother?)

But even if you disagree, let’s say for arguments sake it is a threat.
What would you want to do about it?
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March 12, 2010 9:12am
Michaels

Pete…. There are 2 in her area that she was told to visit, both would look far better if a bulldozer was pushed through them. One is a block of about 35 and I am not sure about the other. And yes I agree with you about the government being a last resort but when she has been in business her entire life, paid probably millions in taxes why should she get treated like this for a matter of $95 a week?
I guess what really angers me is the amount of people from overseas and teenage bludgers that breed for a living that get hand outs in big ways yet someone like my mother basically gets told to fuck off.
Dime…. $95 a week.
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March 12, 2010 9:16am
philu

fuck..!

http://whoar.co.nz/2010/video-glenn-beck-attacks-phillip-ure/

(i didn’t even know he knew of me..and whoar..)

did one of you lot alert him..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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March 12, 2010 9:18am
andrei

Council Flats = warehouses of the unwanted
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March 12, 2010 9:19am
TripeWryter

Is China a ‘potential’ military threat or not ?

Wayne Mapp says it is not, what does everyone think?

Polemic:

Yes, it is a ‘potential’ military threat. The operative word is ‘potential’, which means, among other things, ‘latent’. So anybody with a large military could use that force to advance a nation’s political aims.

Whether China ‘is’ a military threat, and to whom, is another matter. China is not a military threat to New Zealand. Its navy is neither big enough nor has the necessary expertise to, say, blockade this country or otherwise conduct military operations against us.

It will be another 50 years before China is a major naval power.

China could be a threat to its immediate neighbours — among them Japan, India, Russia, and various former Soviet Asian republics on its borders. It could conduct military operations against them.

In 1979 Vietnam gave the Chinese a bit of a hiding because they were mechanised, used better tactics against an army that was still a marcing infantry, mass attack force.
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March 12, 2010 9:20am
TripeWryter

Luc Hansen:
are you sure it was the NZ Herald> I thought the Herald editorialised on something else, but I remember The Press did one on Iraq.
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March 12, 2010 9:22am
Komata

Polemic

In response to your question: ‘Is China a ‘potential’ military threat or not ?’, my few cents:

The answer, IMHO, is that overtly (note that word carefully please), not at the moment. The People’s Republic of China is not at war or in a ‘State of hostility’ with anyone outside its borders at the present time. It is however somewhat busy with Tibet and the Far-Western provinces, but these are ‘internal matters’ and remain within its borders. It is however increasing its military potential and will one day start to make moves to retrieve what it perceives as its rightful property.

However, covertly, a type of cyber-war is currently being waged between China and various other powers and alliances, particularly those of Western Europe, with continual probing and testing occurring and, on the occasions when China feels it is affronted, a full-scale cyber-attack on the agencies and military forces of the nation concerned. (From memory the Americans were on the receiving-end of such an attack sometime around 2004-2005), This ‘combat’ has been going on for several years and is effectively the old ‘Cold War’ now gone underground and in a new, rarely-reported form.

A ‘Potential threat’? Probably, eventually, the answer must be ‘yes’, but at the moment? No – remembering of course that a ‘war’ is not always about ‘shooting’. There are other forms of ‘combat’ which can, at times, be infinitely more effective – a fact that China, with a history going back some 3,000 years, is no doubt very, very aware of.

Hope this helps – thanks for asking.
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March 12, 2010 9:27am
eszett

# andrei (613) Says:
March 12th, 2010 at 9:19 am

Council Flats = warehouses of the unwanted

There’s nothing like a compassionate conservative. Part of your true christian values, I assume,
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March 12, 2010 9:41am
lofty

Michaels says…will have her live with me before that happens and that’s something I want like a kick in the head!!!

Gracious me mate, what a statement, what happened to respecting & honoring your Mum?

My wifes mum lives with us, and sure it is a bit onerous at times, but we see it as an honour to look after her in her twilight years. A council flat when we are quite capable of caring for her…..never!!!!!

After all she did her bit for us. Or am I being too simplistic here?
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March 12, 2010 9:43am
philu

goodonya..lofty..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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March 12, 2010 9:45am
TripeWryter

No, Lofty. May you be sainted forever.
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March 12, 2010 9:47am
MT_Tinman

Michaels, I figure you have two real options that will aid your mother in her time of need.

Take her into your home (as you suggested) or give her the $95 yourself.

I’d suggest the former if at all possible.

Of course there is the third option, that of a private home specifically set up for the elderly but you appear to have ruled this out.

One option not possible and certainly never should be is that the poor bloody tax payer should pay for your mother’s “mistake”.
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March 12, 2010 9:47am
MT_Tinman

Lofty, agree wholeheartedly.
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March 12, 2010 9:48am
Michaels

You right Tinman….. I could give her the $95 a week.
BUT… If I do that then I expect everyone on welfare to immediately come off and their families can pay for them.
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March 12, 2010 9:51am
lofty

Mt Tinman, good comments, and the way I see it is a bit old fashioned I suppose, but the old school thoughts of never wanting to be a burden on the rest of society hold true for our family.
Right through from our looking afetr our venerable members, to our children and grand children learning and acting on good citizenship values, which includes caring for, your self and the wider family.

The safety net that society provides, should be just that!
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March 12, 2010 9:52am
pentwig

philu (7309)

Yep!

Take that you wirey haired ba****d
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March 12, 2010 9:56am
andrei

# andrei (613) Says:
March 12th, 2010 at 9:19 am

Council Flats = warehouses of the unwanted

There’s nothing like a compassionate conservative. Part of your true christian values, I assume,

No – years ago now, I delivered meals on wheels to those Newtown Park flats and I was appalled at how those people were cooped up in those ghastly concrete blocks.

One man who was immobile was on the fourth floor and never had any visitors – I could see his pain and the absurdity of putting him in such a place where he was essentially trapped is a feature of “compassionate” bureaucracy.

Of course in the modern age families can wash their hands of their responsibility to their own – the State takes care of it now, except it doesn’t.

Indeed the State has done its level best to smash families with its policies and created a country of incompassion and self indulgent selfishness.
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March 12, 2010 9:58am
polemic

To dime, ezsett, tripewriter, and komata etc

Why then does Australia consider China a ‘potential’ military threat ?

The Australia vs NZ military white papers show a complete disparity of strategic view.

What are we expected to think here:
a Wayne “Chamberlain” Mapp appeasement speech about china.

Mapp says”We {NZ} dont see China as a potential military threat and he has the hide to say that Australia has an old fashioned view on China.

Maybe its time we woke up here. By the time Chamberlain arrived home with his famous appeasement policy the German War machine was rolling thru Europe.

Chamberlain was the old fashioned one and Churchill was prepared to face reality.

The Chinese war machine has been vastly cranked up already – They dont have a democratically elected government that is answerable to voters, they have no regard for Human Rights and they have vast amounts a poor, hungary and underpaid and unhappy workers and dear old NZ with no credible external defence (whist holding aloof the US) says we dont consider China to be a military threat.

What does everyone think ,

Is Australia old fashioned or do they know something that we dont??
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March 12, 2010 10:00am
KiwiGreg

“By the time Chamberlain arrived home with his famous appeasement policy the German War machine was rolling thru Europe. ”

No it wasn’t.
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March 12, 2010 10:05am
philu

gotta bit of hair-envy going on there..?..pent-‘wig’..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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March 12, 2010 10:05am
Pete George

Indeed the State has done its level best to smash families with its policies and created a country of incompassion and self indulgent selfishness.

That sounds like nonsense. The State has aided and abetted maybe, but families have to take most responsibility for themselves.
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March 12, 2010 10:06am
Pete George

If China has much of the world by it’s economic balls why would they bother wrecking their extended economy?
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March 12, 2010 10:08am
hj

“It will be another 50 years before China is a major naval power.” 😆

My anti ship ballistic missile will knock down your statement>>>>>

“China has developed the world’s only anti-ship ballistic missile. It has successfully developed and tested the DF-21 anti-ship ballistic missile, with a range of up to 3,000 kilometres (1,900 mi) or more, in 2005, according to the US Department of Defense. It is estimated to have reached initial operating capability in 2007 or 2008. It is thought that it is still in an evolutionary process as more UAV and satellites are added.[2] The DF-21 anti-ship ballistic missile is expected to enter active service by 2009.[3][4”
[wikipaedia]

plus immigration will do the trick. Harcourts have an office in Shanghai.
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March 12, 2010 10:14am
TripeWryter

In 1938, when Neville Chamberlain arrived home from Munich with his scrap of paper about peace in our time, Hitler had not launched the Blitzkrieg on Poland, which began on September 1, 1939. The occupations of Czechoslovakia and of Austria had been accomplished pretty much without a shot’s being fired.

Polemic, you used the word ‘potential’, which is ‘latent’, which connotes future. Two of us pretty much replied that we didn’t think China was a military threat to New Zealand NOW, but it might in the future.

So far, no-one has said anything about ‘appeasement’.

And by the way, it is fashionable to rubbish Neville Chamberlain. What was so wrong about the leader of a country trying to do everything possible to avoid a re-run of the horrors of WW1?

In the end, Chamberlain saw through Hitler, and declared war on him, even though Britain was not ready to fight a war.
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March 12, 2010 10:18am
TripeWryter

“China has developed the world’s only anti-ship ballistic missile. It has successfully developed and tested the DF-21 anti-ship ballistic missile, with a range of up to 3,000 kilometres (1,900 mi) or more, in 2005, according to the US Department of Defense. It is estimated to have reached initial operating capability in 2007 or 2008. It is thought that it is still in an evolutionary process as more UAV and satellites are added.[2] The DF-21 anti-ship ballistic missile is expected to enter active service by 2009.[3][4″

HJ, you’re welcome to try.

You might find that your anti-ship rocket will run into a blizzard of counter-measures. In the 1950s-70s the old Soviet Navy steamed around the world with impressive-looking missiles on their decks, but which were later found to not work — the guidance systems were poor, the motors were dodgy, and the shells were prone to rust.
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March 12, 2010 10:24am
Fisiani

The blogosphere is rampant with pleadings for special consideration for every pet project or funding stream to be maintained or even increased. The elephant in the room is the fact that we, as a nation, are living well beyond our actual means. We are living a deluded lifestyle by borrowing from overseas. This will all have to be repaid one day. We cannot expect this bill to be paid by our children and grandchildren

We are borrowing $240,000,000 every week to fund the electoral bribes bequeathed by Labour. $657,534 EVERY DAY.

Line by line review of government expenditure is vital. $25million from Education GREAT START No more government funded Morrocan cookery etc classes. $80 million saved. Reining in excessive ACC physio . Another $90 million saved. Government spending needs pruned and pruned in order to grow with vigour one day
No increased spending on government spending except in health and education for the next 3-5 years.
An enforced diet of additional spending of $1,100,000,000 for the next three years.

When the far right are calling for faster and deeper cuts and the far left are squealing at the current cuts it seems like we have a master helmsman at the wheel. John Key is the figurehead of the recovery but the real hero is Bill English.
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March 12, 2010 10:25am
TripeWryter

A very good editorial this morning from ‘another’ Herald — the Timaru Herald …

OPINION: Australian cricketer Michael Clarke has struck a blow for sensitive modern men by putting his personal life first.

By abruptly quitting the New Zealand cricket tour to fly back to Australia to try and sort out his romantic life, he has proven that there is more to life than sport and business, and proved that sensitive men do exist.

Clarke was roundly condemned for putting cricket on hold and flying home to see Lara Bingle, his 22-year-old girlfriend, who was going through a distressing time. For fans and critics, the sensitive player looked “whipped” for running home to wipe away her tears. Surely, it was implied, a woman’s distress could not be more important than sport? In any culture Clarke’s move would be questioned, but in Australia, where sport is close to religion, his actions were tantamount to treason.

Let’s be clear, Miss Bingle’s distress was of an unusual nature. The high profile model was having an emotional whoopsy over the publication of nude photos of herself, taken by a former boyfriend. Critics wondered how genuine her distress was, since her job consists of posing in almost nothing. Clarke, to his credit, seems to have disregarded this, and taken her distress seriously.

When the love of your life is distressed, you have to do the right thing.

For fans this was a sign of weakness. They expect sports stars to sacrifice everything for the good of the game, and clearly believe that families should come second.

In the world of professional sport it is not uncommon for wives and girlfriends to carefully plan babies around playing schedules, and there have been a number of cases over the years of women booking in for unnecessary caesarean deliveries simply to suit a team’s programme. Because players are now so well paid and there is so much riding on their performances, the pressure to put sport first is even greater.

Clarke has shown he is made of sterner stuff. He has answered the ultimate question – whether a personal life is more important than sport – with an emphatic yes. He has put his cricket career on hold for a small period to deal with a personal issue. It is a refreshing change and recognises that the secret to happiness is not money, but a happy family life.

If latest reports are to be believed it looks like the Clarke-Bingle engagement is off, and the cricketer was understood to be the instigator of the break. If this is true it makes Clarke look even better. In an age when many choose to opt out of relationships by text or by changing their status on their Facebook internet sites, rather than face-to-face meetings, Clarke has done the honourable thing.

Unfortunately for the Black Caps, Clarke’s romantic upset hasn’t helped much. Widespread romantic upheaval in the rest of the Australian camp may be too much to hope for.
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March 12, 2010 10:42am
Tassman

Looks like the government has jumbed the gun on Winston Peters when it jumped the Pacific Cable project. You know similar guys got together and put a similar project in India, and the whole country elevated along with it in Technology. But the fact is they have taken my advice, wow, dang…..
======

There has been trouble in my neighbourhood, and the Police are using it to collect data from the neighbourhood. What a subtle violation of privacy! The Police into unethical practice?
======
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March 12, 2010 10:42am
eszett

# Pete George (4172) Says:
March 12th, 2010 at 10:06 am

Indeed the State has done its level best to smash families with its policies and created a country of incompassion and self indulgent selfishness.

That sounds like nonsense. The State has aided and abetted maybe, but families have to take most responsibility for themselves.

It not only sounds like nonsense, it is nonsense.

The state has of course create this. Smashed families with it’s policies.

I wonder which ones in particular.
What policies exactly?
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March 12, 2010 10:51am
nickb

Agree with you completley Pete.
On a similar note I found a most eye=opening blog via Lindsay Mitchell’s last night, of a social worker in the housing department in the UK:

http://winstonsmith33.blogspot.com/

A real eye opener, well worth a read for a hour or so.

Shocked to find out that in the UK, you can legally disown your child to the state on the grounds that you cannot control them. All you have to do is sign a few forms, and the state is your child’s new parent.The blog is written from the point of view of one of the workers in the housing complexes that house these children, and shows the bleak future of these kids ruined by PC policies.
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March 12, 2010 10:59am
KiwiGreg

@ tripewriter “And by the way, it is fashionable to rubbish Neville Chamberlain. What was so wrong about the leader of a country trying to do everything possible to avoid a re-run of the horrors of WW1?”

Conditionallly agree. There is also a view that by delaying war he improved the Allies’ prospects (as their gearing up had been proceeding far slower than the Germans’). Certainly the time to act was the re-occupation of the Rhineland (where is was clear that Hitler would bolt at the first sign of trouble). By the time of the annexation of Czechoslavakia he was gagging for a war (and the Allies were no more capable of providing military support to save the Czechs than they were of doing it to save Poland).
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March 12, 2010 11:04am
Fletch

A report this morning about Auckland University Students Association stifling free speech.

I’m not sure how many of you are aware of this, but at this very moment there is a group of pro-life students at Auckland University engaged in a very important struggle with the Auckland University Student’s Association (AUSA).

It all started last year when this group of Auckland University students decided to do what many other students have been doing at universities all over this country for years – they decided to form an official student club.

Their club, like other clubs currently operating in other universities around NZ, was going to be a pro-life club.

And this is where their troubles began.

You see, it turns out that the AUSA is more tyrannical than tolerant, and when it comes to freedom of choice, and they don’t like pro-life clubs to be able to exercise either.

The AUSA has a special rule on their statute books that applies, as far as can be ascertained, ONLY to people who want to start a pro-life club on campus.

This special rule dictates that pro-life clubs can only apply to become an official club at an AGM (they’re those meetings that happen only once every year).

This rule has been on the AUSA books since 2002, and it only applies only to pro-life clubs.

What’s the big deal?

Well, anyone who wants to start any other club, like say the Kinks on Campus Club, (a club for sexually deviant practices such as sadism, polygamy, etc) which currently operates at Auckland University, can apply to become an official club at a Student Forum (they’re the meetings that happen weekly).

A special vote is held at these meetings, and if you win enough votes then you get to become an official club on campus.

Now even the most politically illiterate of persons can plainly see the underhanded Machiavellian trickery at work with this decidedly undemocratic piece of legislation.

No other universities seem to have a problem with it, just Auckland.
Ain’t free speech wonderful – unless you’re one being denied it.
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March 12, 2010 11:07am
TripeWryter

KiwiGreg — conditionally agree with you too. Britain began rearmament in 1936 (under Baldwin, I think). It’s when the King George V class battleships were started, and the big building programme of aircraft carriers, cruisers, and destroyers was begun. It’s when they first started designing the Spitfire, and RAF Fighter Command was established.

Could go on. It seemed to me that Britain was rearming for a war, despite what Churchill was saying.

But Chamberlain might have been buying time.

Even in the German High Command, the generals and admirals were not expecting a war until 1944. Hitler had assured them of that. The Z Plan, which was the bluprint for expanding the Kriegsmarine, wasn’t expected to be completed until 1948.

But Hitler went early. Perhaps he thought that was his best chance then.
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March 12, 2010 11:30am
dime

polemic – it all comes down to the strength of the US. without them, we are screwed.

trade is what will keep china and the US from going at it.

personally i worry more about indonesia.

id prefer it if we spent a lot more on our military.
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March 12, 2010 11:43am
Pete George

id prefer it if we spent a lot more on our military.

Why? So we can defend ourselves against an errant atoll nation?

What sort of military would we need to fight off any Asian country?
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March 12, 2010 11:58am
polemic

So the question remains “Why does Australia consider China to be a potential threat?”

And should Australia be affronted with Wayne Mapps “old fashioned label”?
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March 12, 2010 12:04pm
TripeWryter

Pete George:
To answer your question at 12.04pm — aircraft. Aircraft capable of strafing, rocketing, bombing, napalming, cluster-bombing.

It was the solution Air Commodore Ralph Cochrane, RAF, suggested to the Labour Government in 1938, was accepted, and the 30 Wellington bombers ordered for the brand-new RNZAF were intended for service here. The implied enemy was Japan.

World War 2 started, and the Wellingtons and their crews were offered to RAF Bomber Command, and they became 75 (NZ) Squadron.

After WW2 New Zealand had an aerial deterrent against aggressors from overseas until Helen Clark and her government decided in their wisdom to scrap the RNZAF’s Air Combat Wing. That followed from cancelling the buying of 28 F16 fighter-bombers to replace the Skyhawks.

In doing this, Clark and her government removed any means of New Zealand’s being able to defend itself In the air and From the air.

Indonesia might well become aggressive. China, too. In 1940 Hitler’s Luftwaffe had to destroy the RAF so they could get their panzers and their jack-booted infantry across 20 or so miles of the English Channel.

An aggressor here would have to cross 1200 miles of sea.

Or, a potential invader could turn up in several ports in disguised merchant ships and it would all be over by breakfast time.
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March 12, 2010 12:54pm
polemic

An agressor would have to cross 1200miles of sea but so also would an ally if we needed help.

We would be “gone by lunchtime” because there is absolutely no deterent at all.
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March 12, 2010 1:01pm
Eisenhower

What sort of military would we need to fight off any Asian country?

I suspect we would be able hold our own against the following Asian states –

East Timor
Bhutan
Maldives
…possibly Brunei

As for repelling invasion our circa 11k military personal would rapidly swell to several hundred thousand militia and therefore a significant number of Asian nations would struggle to gain a foothold due to the lack of a blue water navy.
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March 12, 2010 1:09pm
KiwiGreg

“But Hitler went early. Perhaps he thought that was his best chance then.”

It clearly was given what actually happened (at least in Western Europe). If he had left it much longer the Soviets would have toasted him as they were in the middle of a huge rearmament (and recovery from Stalin’s purges).
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March 12, 2010 1:10pm
eszett

# polemic (242) Says:
March 12th, 2010 at 1:01 pm

An agressor would have to cross 1200miles of sea but so also would an ally if we needed help.

We would be “gone by lunchtime” because there is absolutely no deterent at all.

Why would anyone bother to invade NZ?
And even if it did, what kind of force would you need to be sufficient deterrent?
We just couldn’t afford a force that would be a sufficient deterrent.

I just love it how some complain about every cent spent by the government, but when it comes to military they get a hard on and would throw buckets of money at it, no matter how senseless it is.

Dime, how much of a tax raise would you be willing to accept for military spending?

If anyone thinks that the now abolished strike wing would have been able to deter let alone defeat a potentially serious threat is dreaming. It was just a huge waste of money.
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March 12, 2010 1:15pm
RRM

Tripewriter:

http://thejakartaglobe.com/home/indonesian-military-urged-to-ground-old-aircraft/328825
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2009/04/07/324880/twenty-four-dead-in-indonesian-military-aircraft-crash.html
http://www.euronews.net/2009/05/20/97-dead-in-indonesian-military-plane-crash/

Indonesia’s Luftwaffe appears more of a danger to Indonesian troops than to ours 🙂

OTOH, we’d need something A LOT more serious than re-wired Skyhawks to see off one of these babies:
(Unless their pilots crash them first 😉 )

http://www.deagel.com/news/Indonesia-Signs-for-Three-Su-27SKM-and-Three-Su-30MK2-Fighter-Aircraft_n000002603.aspx
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March 12, 2010 1:20pm
Yvette

Fisiani – “We are borrowing $240,000,000 every week to fund the electoral bribes bequeathed by Labour. $657,534 EVERY DAY.”

657,534 x 7 = 4,602,738 not 240,000,000
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March 12, 2010 1:27pm
Bryla

Hey groovers,

I understand that most of you rabid righties will take even small defeats very personally, and run, run, run away with your tails between your legs. We nonviolence activists are made of more resilient stuff – and see temorary difficulties as but one more opportunity to make a difference.

Yesterday, when I was ordered by Judge Harrop to desist from further reporting, some of you gloated prematurely.

This morning, after measured intervention by scoop.co.nz the Judge amended his order, and I’m now a properly accredited media worker for scoop, sitting at the media table (very comfy) and allowed to take notes and report on the trial’s conduct for scoop. Keep an eye out for my copy tomorrow. (who’dve thunkit, a new career at my age)

As for the trial it’s going very well, with two defendents having completed their testimony, and Sam Land nearly finished his evidence-in-chief. The trial will continue at least until Monday.

I think there’s a real chance of acquittal. Wouldn’t that be good.

Meantime a report of yesterday’s proceedings was compiled by another observer and posted on Irish Indymedia here:

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/95966?author_name=Letitia&comment_limit=0&condense_comments=false#comment265974
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March 12, 2010 1:42pm
nickb

Well never reading scoop again.
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March 12, 2010 1:50pm
Pete George

I think there’s a real chance of acquittal.

Are they defending/denying any trespass or damage? Do the think they haven’t broken any law? Do they hope to get off on technicalities?

Or do they think the judge is a Christian so they’ll get an old boys network acquittal?
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March 12, 2010 1:51pm
Bryla

Pete, the defence of necessity and self-defence.
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March 12, 2010 2:02pm
Komata

Re: Australia and China

Until the later end of the 20th Century, Australia had a very definite problem with Indonesia, largely as a result of the ‘Confrontation’ episode during the ’60’s and ’70’s – an’ incident’ that also involved New Zealand.

The removal of Sukhano from office in Indonesia and the end of confrontation with that country eased the Australian concern, and, for teh moment, the two states are friends, although the East Timor episode did put a bit of a strain on the relationship. However, Communist China is a different proposition and, having been on the receiving end of an (almost) ‘Asian -Invasion’, during the early ’40’s, Australia is, understandably somewhat jumpy about such matters, particularly as it is aware that ownership of its mineral resources could be ‘useful’ to any invader or new ‘owner’.

The Australian military is not usually-inclined to seeing difficulties where there aren’t any and, as previously noted, China is still engaged in a form of cyber-conflict so there is a cause for concern, a fact which is no doubt reflected in the briefings that are delivered to the Australian government on a frequent basis.

Mr Napp should possibly have been a little more cautious in his comments concerning Australia – comments which would probably confirm to many senior Australian officials that. as usual, the Kiwi’s are somewhat niave and out of touch. his comments have certainly not helped our relationship with the ‘Big Island’.
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March 12, 2010 2:27pm
Pete George

Really Bryan? Seems more like a hope and a prayer than realism. I was against the Iraq invasion, I’m against rendition and torture, but I’m puzzled by this defence. Did damaging stuff in NZ change anything, was it ever likely to?

It’s actually possible Waihopai could help reduce war, renditions and torture through better intelligence. Have you considered that?
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March 12, 2010 2:27pm
philu

so..fisani is not a mathematician then..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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March 12, 2010 2:28pm
KiwiGreg

“The Australian military is not usually-inclined to seeing difficulties where there aren’t any ”

I would have thought all military are inclined to over state risk. That’s how they get more men, money and toys.
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March 12, 2010 2:40pm
Komata

All the misguided idiots at Waihopi did was tell ‘those who were interested’ that New Zealand was part of the Western intelligence -gathering circuit, something about which those who have interest in such things were probably already aware, and no doubt provided these ‘interested parties’ with more information than those misguided individuals who undertook the vanadalism could ever have known about.

It would be interesting (though impossible) to learn who ‘inspired’ these individuals to take the actions they did, the one (or two, maybe more), who carefully sowed the seeds which resulted in the ‘Waihopi’ destruction since I doubt that these actions were as the result of individual ‘original’ thought – things simply don’t happen that way. The participants do not, unfortunately, come across as being the sharpest knives in the drawer.

And war does, after all, occur in a multitude of forms.
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March 12, 2010 4:24pm
RightNow

Misguided is the nicest thing I can say about the Wiahopi vandals.
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March 12, 2010 5:01pm
Fletch

They are idiots.
As I said before, what would happen if an enemy was not too far away and we didn’t know about it until too late because we had no satellite?
I’d send these 3 guys out with flowers in their hair and holding hands singing “give peace a chance” and see if the naughty men would go away. They’d be the first up against the wall and shot.

Actually, when you think about what they did, they are actually traitors – endangering NZ lives for the sake of their misguided ideologies.
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March 12, 2010 5:10pm
Fisiani

Oops $240,000, 000 a week then just divided it by 365. Slip of the mind as really couldn’t comprehend that we are truly borrowing so much per week. So many zeroes. It is horrific enough for a year but it is indeed over $34,000,000 a day. Shit that more than a million dollars every hour. If you stood at an open window in the Beehive with a stack of $20 notes and you threw them away every second. You would throw away $20 x 60 x 60 $72,000 per hour. Imagine 10 people each throwing away $20 notes . We are borrowing more than that.
National, to honour their election promises, are largely maintaining the financial lunacy of Labour. We are are like children believing that money comes from a hole in the wall machine. The pixies are giving it to us.
And Labour wants to borrow and spend more……….
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March 12, 2010 5:20pm
Inventory2

I think there’s a real chance of acquittal. Wouldn’t that be good.

Bryla – your guys have two shows of an acquittal; shit show, and no show whatsoever.
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March 12, 2010 5:22pm
RRM

[Fletch]:”what would happen if an enemy was not too far away and we didn’t know about it until too late because we had no satellite?”

It would be almost as bad as if we had had no warning about the Tsunami….

[Fletch]: “Actually, when you think about what they did, they are actually traitors – endangering NZ lives for the sake of their misguided ideologies.”

You really miss Battlestar Galactica, don’t you?
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March 12, 2010 5:29pm
tom hunter

“Pacifism is objectively pro-fascist. This is elementary common sense. If you hamper the war effort of one side, you automatically help out that of the other. Nor is there any real way of remaining outside such a war as the present one. In practice, ‘he that is not with me is against me.'”

Of course there are people who think that we can remain outside this particular war, or that there is no war.

Having said that – if you can find a pacifist who looks like “Six” – I’m in!
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March 12, 2010 5:45pm
Fletch

You really miss Battlestar Galactica, don’t you?

Never watched it, to be honest. I watched the very 1st movie length episode, and it was OK, but not something I wanted to commit to watching the whole series. Same with Lost. I gave up after watching half an hour of the 1st episode, and I’m glad I haven’t watched any more. It seems to be dragging on.
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March 12, 2010 6:49pm
Bryla

Pete George, I wish you could have heard the testimony and the cross examination of the three, which ran for about 18 hours all up, and in which many of the issues you raise were discussed.

As for a hope and a prayer, or as Inventory2 so eloquently put it “between shit show and no show” I’d be prepared to take bets. I’ll back “either an acquittal or a hung jury”, and anyone else can back a conviction.

If anyone wants actual knowledge, the Court will probably open to the public again on Tuesday after a substantial legal argument between Counsel.

One thing that heartens me about the hard core righties on this blog is that they act very strongly to preserve their own ignorance – so that none of their prejudices are ever challenged. A recipe for irrelevance if ever I saw one.

I’ll pray for you.

Cheers
Bryan
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March 12, 2010 6:50pm
Pete George

Motives ok, method misguided.

Although….. the motives are too idealistic – sure I’d like to see a world without violence, but that won’t happen, much in the world is naturally violent. The best we can hope for is to reduce the violence that humans are responsible for. To do that sometimes you have to stand up and fight, there is no escaping from that – and surviving.

Are you aware of the history of the Moriori? The principle of Nunuku has a serious flaw.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moriori
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March 12, 2010 7:20pm
Shunda barunda

What the hell is wrong with our country?, In the past 3 weeks I have had a boy racer try and repeatedly run me off the road (over a 4km distance), tools stolen and now some sicko just tried to abduct my son.
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March 12, 2010 7:45pm
Yvette

Komata – “All the misguided idiots at Waihopi did was tell ‘those who were interested’ that New Zealand was part of the Western intelligence -gathering circuit, something about which those who have interest in such things were probably already aware, and no doubt provided these ‘interested parties’ with more information than those misguided individuals who undertook the vanadalism could ever have known about.”

And then the Government to have a new policy of pushing SAS operations and national heroes through the MSM into the face of ‘those who are interested’
And the Sunday Times and that guy with his BBQ sausages seem keen to show ‘those who were interested’ just how easy it would be.
Why do I feel a bit nervous about the bloody World Cup?
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March 12, 2010 8:09pm
Luc Hansen

oops, the editorial comment I posted @9.02 should have credited The Press.

Apologies to the Herald (just in case they noticed) but the point remains.

And from Bryla:

One thing that heartens me about the hard core righties on this blog is that they act very strongly to preserve their own ignorance – so that none of their prejudices are ever challenged. A recipe for irrelevance if ever I saw one.

So well put. Not sure about the irrelevance though, as the site does attract a lot of traffic. I suppose it could be the freak show aspect. I’m amused by the constant harping of left/right when its just such crap these days. National/Labour, Dems/Republicans, Labour/Coalition, Labour/Conservative – it’s all much of a muchness today. No one can tell me Blair’s almost fascist regime was left wing!

I can be what they call left. I can also be to the right. It just depends.

Even their favourite of climate change denial cannot be termed right (as it is wrong) and even the most authoritarian regimes accept the reality of climate change.

So most are just fantasists, deluded as to their own importance, but useful for reminding the rest of us how sane we are!
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March 12, 2010 9:04pm
Pete George

Why do I feel a bit nervous about the bloody World Cup?

Because in good sports events there is always uncertainty over who will succeed?
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March 12, 2010 9:10pm
philu

http://whoar.co.nz/2010/why-hitler-was-not-a-vegetarian/

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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March 12, 2010 10:11pm
Ryan Sproull

Have a good weekend, all. Keep safe.
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March 12, 2010 10:27pm
Fletch

Luc, the thing with PC liberals with ideals is – that is exactly only what they are – ideals, that don’t translate to the real world.
In the real world, countries need defensive systems and armaments and, yes, sometimes even war to keep the peace. One of the problems with PCers is that they have never experienced war. The other is that they think everybody thinks the same as they do and that everyone wants to live in peace. Some people don’t want to live in peace – they’d rather take your tricycle and smack you in the mouth.

But no, let’s all just hold hands and weave daisies into one-another’s hair. That will fix everything. If the bad Arabs come knocking we’ll just tell them to go away because we don’t believe in fighting. That’s why we don’t have any defense network, because it would be a poor show to be spying on someone to see if they were going to attack us. That would be admitting to not believing them when they said they wouldn’t attack and would only hurt their feelings.

A wise man makes peace, but protects his ass as well.
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March 13, 2010 12:28am

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