General Debate 2 July 2010

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Yvette

WORLD LEADER

EU ETS
EU wide cap and trade scheme. The world’s first and largest mandatory trading scheme for CO2 emissions.
– http://www.climatechange.govt.nz/emissions-trading-scheme/about/international-examples.html

For once and for all: New Zealand is not leading the world.
From their own govt.nz website: EU ETS is.
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July 2, 2010 5:40pm
Manolo

“@phil – Since you’re enjoying having a crack at me today”
KK, I suggest you don’t use the word “crack” when dealing with the bludger. It could be dangerous and trigger an uncontrolabe urge.
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July 2, 2010 5:45pm
Lucia Maria

Kris,

In reply to your previous comment, I can completely understand where you are coming from. I find the same thing happens to me, I don’t want offend non-Catholic Christians.

In the end, however, if not wanting to offend causes you to silence yourself where it is important to speak, then it’s better to offend.

For myself, I’ve been called a non-Christian by a Baptist, and while it caused me some consternation, I wasn’t mortally wounded. I got over it.

The way I see it, Catholicism is complete Christianity. Everything else is a cut-down version of the original. Because of Christ, the cut-down versions have a connection to Him, and I’m sure He knows His own, who through no fault of their own cannot recognise his very physical Church on earth. But, those, like yourself, are still on the outside… and I feel like the man (or woman) who is trying to help someone who have lived their whole life in a cave, come out into the light. But then I remember, it’s not me who does it, I am only the vehicle and He works through me (if I let Him).

Very humbling, really.

If you want to have a particular conversation about anything, away from the crowds, come over to NZ Conservative tonight.
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July 2, 2010 5:57pm
Viking2

Grumpy old hori. Where did you get the idea that ACT was right wing?
Thats a myth perpetrated by God know who that is so unenlightened and who have failed to even do basic homework.
Roger Douglas, about 5th generation left wing. FFS
Act is not right wing but is about a clear set of principles that encompass personal responsibility, removal of state sponsored privilege and the right for citizens to determine their own destiny.

Difficult to see why people don’t understand that unless its because they don’t bother to actually do any research and just listen to the MSM. (which is most likely the case.)Off course many would say National were of the right which would be the biggest deception since the Shroud of Turin. The picture’s there but the reality is false.
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July 2, 2010 6:01pm
Fletch

In the end, however, if not wanting to offend causes you to silence yourself where it is important to speak, then it’s better to offend.

I agree. I may not agree with everything Kris says (mostly about Catholic stuff 🙂 but I think he does a very good job in the moral positions he takes on most things and stands up for.
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July 2, 2010 6:12pm
Yvette

02/06/2010
‘Isaiah Tai, a 21-year-old orchard worker, was this morning sentenced to two years and 10 months’ prison after earlier pleading guilty to Mr Vercoe’s manslaughter. … The two men had not known each other but had been drinking at the same bar. When it closed around 3am they “exchanged words” and Tai punched Mr Vercoe in the face with such force he fell, hitting his head on the footpath, Mr Hollister-Jones said. …
Tai then kicked the unconscious Mr Vercoe in the head with considerable force.”

02/07/2010
An Auckland man who murdered a Chinese businesswoman in front of her eight-year-old son has been jailed for at least 12 years.
Christopher Shadrock, 23, was found guilty of murdering Joanne Wang in June 2008 by running her over in a Manukau shopping mall carpark …
Shadrock had no previous convictions for violence and the judge said he did not accept the murder was committed to escape detection or arrest.
Rather, in the heat of the moment, Shadrock made a fateful decision, the judge said.
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July 2, 2010 6:50pm
Inventory2

Indeed Yvette – and yesterday, a man was jailed for 18 years for supplying methamphetamine. Something is out of whack here.
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July 2, 2010 7:02pm
Pete George

“Something is out of whack here.”

Recognised as such.

The Solicitor-General is to appeal the sentence imposed on Isaiah Tai for killing Hawea Vercoe.
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July 2, 2010 7:08pm
Inventory2

Duly noted Pete, but if you go to the comments section on the link below, you’ll find a dissertation from Alex Masterley as to why Tai’s sentence may not change much on appeal

http://keepingstock.blogspot.com/2010/07/good-news.html

I still struggle with Tai getting a 1/3rd discount on his sentence for pleading guilty, when he was originally charged with murder, but negotiated a guilty plea to the lesser charge of manslaughter. To me, that is inherently unjust.
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July 2, 2010 7:17pm
Pete George

The Crown must have considered murder would have been too hard to pin down, so better for what they were sure they’d get.

I think that a directive or law change or whatever it takes needs to made to the courts make deliberate kicks to the head as qualifying for murder.
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July 2, 2010 7:33pm
Rex Widerstrom

I’ve read Alex Masterley’s comment I2 and I have to say I don’t have the benefit of having read the sentencing notes in either case to which Yvette refers, whereas Alex has clearly read the notes in the Tai case. However if one accepts the argument that Tai was charged (and thus sentenced) on the basis that there was doubt that he intended to kill, then the judge’s remarks in the Shadrock case (highlighted by Yvette) seem to suggest the same argument could apply.

What often happens which leads to such apparent injustice is that police and / or prosecutors will choose the “wrong” charge and not lay an alternate charge, giving the judge or jury a stark choice between an unjust acquital or a finding of guilt on a charge that’s not the most appropriate. So, if found guilty, the offender will receive much more, or less, time than they ought because the starting point for sentencing is then too high (or too low).

One example I worked on was the case of a stupid young girl who, as a first offence, was charged with “armed robbery”. What she had actually done was waved a corkscrew at another girl on a busy street in broad daylight and demanded her mobile phone and money. She was on drugs at the time.

What should have happened was that she was charged with a lesser offence, or offences, and ordered to undergo compulsory drug rehabilitation, an apology to the victim (which she did anyway), and restitution to society in some suitable way.

But because the police knew they had a rock solid case they overcharged, got a conviction, and she’s rotting in a cell for five years (longer than Tai will do for taking a life).

This goes on all the time, and is purely about “winning” from the point of view of police and not about justice, public safety or anything else. And the end result is injustice – sometimes to offenders, sometimes to victims.
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July 2, 2010 7:34pm
starboard

A man who ran a drugs operation out of the Sky City casino in Auckland has been jailed for 18 years.
Tac Kin Voong, 47, was earlier this year found guilty on a number of methamphetamine charges in the High Court at Auckland.

bizaare…
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July 2, 2010 7:36pm
Viking2

Roll on the day Power sets up an Independent prosecuting Service free of police gaming.
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July 2, 2010 7:41pm
Viking2

Global Warming hits Perth.

Perth equals cold spell record
CHALPAT SONTI
July 2, 2010 – 6:40AM

It’s official – this is now Perth’s equal-longest cold spell on record, but it’s a mark that is set to be smashed.

Bureau of Meteorology figures show the minimum overnight temperature was 4.7 degrees, just below the 5 degree threshold that “officially” constitutes a cold night in Perth.

That made it the ninth straight day of official cold nights, equalling the record set in 1997.

However, the forecast is for at least six more days of sub 5-degree nights.

The record was equalled just two days after WA equalled the record for the warmest 12-month period in the state’s history.

The average temperature between July and June was 23.55 degrees, or 1.08 degrees above the long-term average.
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July 2, 2010 7:41pm
reid

“Roll on the day Power sets up an Independent prosecuting Service free of police gaming.”

Which will be the same day politicians setup a remuneration committee free of public reaming.
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July 2, 2010 7:58pm
Hurf Durf

Depressing news of the day (unless you’re a leftard): US military to be disemboweled.

The Air Force must retire six fighter air wings equivalents, and at the same time build 301 fewer F-35 fighters. The nuclear bomber force will be completely eliminated in the name of unilateral disarmament—the B-1 and B-2 and B-52 and other bombers will still be able to drop bombs, but their nuclear weapon wiring and controls will simply be removed. Procurement of the new refueling tanker and the C-17 cargo aircraft will be canceled. Directed energy beam research and other advanced missile and space warfare defense projects will also be eliminated or curtailed.

Active duty Army personnel will be slashed from 562,400 to 360,000. That includes elimination of about five active-component brigade combat teams (the report is not exactly). The Army will also suffer a myriad of other cuts, including closure of overseas bases.

The Marine Corps would be cut by 30%, from 202,000 to 145,000, and the other funding cuts planned for the Corps mean the United States will not be able to mount a major amphibious landing on any hostile shore. Marine Corps programs to be killed include the V-22 Osprey tilt rotor aircraft and the Expeditionary Fighting Vehicle.

Peace and love! Peace and love!

I hate these people.
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July 2, 2010 8:21pm
Pete George

“Perth equals cold spell record”

“The record was equalled just two days after WA equalled the record for the warmest 12-month period in the state’s history.”

Sounds like a lot of variability.
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July 2, 2010 8:22pm
RightNow

Scientists at the Department of Physiology, Anatomy and Genetics, University of Oxford, have discovered that going veggie could be bad for your brain – with those on a meat-free diet six times more likely to suffer brain shrinkage.

The study involved tests and brain scans on community-dwelling volunteers aged 61 to 87 years without cognitive impairment at enrolment, over a period of five years. When the volunteers were retested five years later the medics found those with the lowest levels of vitamin B12 were also the most likely to have brain shrinkage. It confirms earlier research showing a link between brain atrophy and low levels of B12.

Vegans are the most likely to be deficient because the best sources of the vitamin are meat, particularly liver, milk and fish.

This study confirms other findings, covered in Trick and Treat, which shows that overall human brain sizes have reduced by an average 11% since we adopted an agricultural diet based on cereal grains rather than the meat-based diet of our Palaeolithic ancestors.

Vogiatzoglou A, et al. Vitamin B12 status and rate of brain volume loss in community-dwelling elderly. Neurology 2008; 71(11): 826-32.
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July 2, 2010 8:33pm
starboard

– with those on a meat-free diet six times more likely to suffer brain shrinkage

heh..that explains the brain dead ramblings of the phoolwhore…
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July 2, 2010 8:46pm
Hurf Durf

An investigative panel at Pennsylvania State University, weighing the question of whether the scientist, Michael E. Mann, had “seriously deviated from accepted practices within the academic community for proposing, conducting or reporting research or other scholarly activities,” …

… declared that he had not.

Peer review, eh Philip?

About as credible as that fuckwitted poll of historians that put Barky at 15th, and the esteemed Dr Joe Atkinson’s fruitless fight to socialise the media at any and all costs.
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July 2, 2010 8:54pm
krazykiwi

@Hurf, let’s not forget the Oxburgh whitewash that ‘cleared’ Jones, of ‘hide the decline’ fame. Oxburgh, a conflict-of-interest afflicted peer headed the “Science Appraisal Panel”, and wrote this:

Dear Dr Mcintyre,
Thank you for your message. What you report may or may not be the case. But as I have pointed out to you previously the science was not the subject of our study.
Yours sincerly,
Ron Oxburgh

It’s not about the science. Riiiiight. Now back to your eco-investment portfolio Lord Oxburgh. Chop chop.
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July 2, 2010 9:07pm
Pete George

Mann’s acquittal is just the most recent bit of news showing that climategate—and the wave of climate skepticism that seemed to arise at the beginning of the year—had little basis. A parliamentary inquiry in Britain acquitted East Anglia’s Jones of any scientific impropriety back in April. And last week the Sunday Times of London, a right-leaning British paper that covered the climategate emails obsessively, printed a lengthy retraction of a story earlier this year claiming that the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) had no basis for stating that up to 40% of the Amazonian rainforest could be vulnerable to climate change.

http://ecocentric.blogs.time.com/2010/07/01/climategate-continues-to-crumble/
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July 2, 2010 9:19pm
Pete George

Sunday Times retracts and apologises for Amazon story smearing the IPCC

The article “UN climate panel shamed by bogus rainforest claim” (News, Jan 31) stated that the 2007 Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) report had included an “unsubstantiated claim” that up to 40% of the Amazon rainforest could be sensitive to future changes in rainfall.

In fact, the IPCC’s Amazon statement is supported by peer-reviewed scientific evidence. In the case of the WWF report, the figure had, in error, not been referenced, but was based on research by the respected Amazon Environmental Research Institute (IPAM) which did relate to the impact of climate change. We also understand and accept that Mr Rowell is an experienced environmental journalist and that Dr Moore is an expert in forest management, and apologise for any suggestion to the contrary.

The article also quoted criticism of the IPCC’s use of the WWF report by Dr Simon Lewis, a Royal Society research fellow at the University of Leeds and leading specialist in tropical forest ecology. We accept that, in his quoted remarks, Dr Lewis was making the general point that both the IPCC and WWF should have cited the appropriate peer-reviewed scientific research literature. As he made clear to us at the time, including by sending us some of the research literature, Dr Lewis does not dispute the scientific basis for both the IPCC and the WWF reports’ statements on the potential vulnerability of the Amazon rainforest to droughts caused by climate change.

In addition, the article stated that Dr Lewis’ concern at the IPCC’s use of reports by environmental campaign groups related to the prospect of those reports being biased in their conclusions. We accept that Dr Lewis holds no such view – rather, he was concerned that the use of non-peer-reviewed sources risks creating the perception of bias and unnecessary controversy, which is unhelpful in advancing the public’s understanding of the science of climate change. A version of our article that had been checked with Dr Lewis underwent significant late editing and so did not give a fair or accurate account of his views on these points. We apologise for this.

http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/uk_news/Environment/article322890.ece

(you need to sign in to actually view the apology)
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July 2, 2010 9:29pm
krazykiwi

Mann’s acquittal would be like Burton trying himself. But go on putting your faith in them all Pete if it make you feel snug. And remember to ask me who’s paying me. Multiple times. My answer will be ‘no one’, but you’ll ask again. And again. Yawn. Meantime others can read Global Warming Hoax Weekly Round-Up, July 1st 2010.
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July 2, 2010 9:33pm
krazykiwi

Waste of time trying to smear the IPCC. They do such a good job of looking like total charlatans, completely unaided… no help needed from story-fabricating MSM.
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July 2, 2010 9:36pm
Hurf Durf

lol Time.

And it doesn’t matter about Climategate anymore, because it served its purpose: to expose the warmists as the tax-hiking power-grabbers that they are and to destroy AGW in the eyes of public opinion. Both can be seen to be successful.

When you’re in an ideological war such as this, you go to battle with the army you have.
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July 2, 2010 9:38pm
Pete George

Not faith on anyone. I keep looking for what various sources say. There is a heck of a lot of science still out there.

The Burton anaolgy is ridiculous, he has no reputation to preserve, Penn State does.

IPCC 2007 wasn’t a done deal. Neither was Climategate, which not surprisingly was over-egged far more than IPCC 2007. I expect we’ll see science more carefully checked from now on that suggests a range of possibilities for and against us stuffing the planet.

We must be doing something. It’s just a matter of how much, how much different effects will counterbalance, whether we can do anything significant about it if we had enough will to, and whether we will have enough will to.

Hurf sums it up well, the antis see it as an ideological war and will do anything to win, and don’t care about the science (except when it suits their battle).
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July 2, 2010 9:40pm
krazykiwi

We must be doing something

Yes. Allowing technology and abundant energy to lift people out of poverty, disease and squalor. Either that, or fall victim to the pseudo-religious hoax that preaches impending eco-doom, correctable only by global socialism. You seem to have thrown your lot in with the latter. Bad call. That shark has been well jumped.
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July 2, 2010 9:47pm
kaya

Taxing people on the basis it could be a problem is the same as praying to god in case it might exist. Futile but also very wrong. That doesn’t read well but it’s true.
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July 2, 2010 9:48pm
Pete George

Unlike you I haven’t thrown my lot with anything or anyone.

Abundant energy may not keep up with demand. Blindly assuming that it will is playing recklessly with our families futures. But I’m not sure what if anything can be done about it, especially with the number of people that actively resist researching it properly.
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July 2, 2010 9:51pm
krazykiwi

Abundant energy may not keep up with demand. Blindly assuming that it will is playing recklessly with our kids futures

You know, my great-great-great-great grandfather was overheard saying the same thing
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July 2, 2010 9:52pm
Pete George

Since then population and resource use has accelerated substantially. Carrying on blindly failing to consider future possibilities will lead to a major gutser at some time. Came close with the financial system a couple of years ago. The more we are the less margin there is for major errors, sometime possibly catastrophic. All civilisations end up crashing somehow. It so happens that we are now an intertwined global civilisation.
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July 2, 2010 9:56pm
philu

“..That shark has been well jumped…”

actually…christian fascists..in relation to christianity/christian-teachings….

..have set the benchmark for shark-jumping….

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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July 2, 2010 9:59pm
Pete George

Don’t go there Phil, next thing you’ll be suggesting thin air fish will feed the starving, whoops, thin air bread.
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July 2, 2010 10:02pm
krazykiwi

@Pete – No, since then we’ve developed sufficient hubris to believe the universe is under our feet, and at our mercy. Is wasn’t then, and it isn’t now. However we will develop new materials, new energy sources given the chance. Global socialism will prevent that.

@phil – Still waiting for a rebuttal of my 4:48. Chop chop.
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July 2, 2010 10:02pm
Pete George

You have a lot of faith in unknowns there krazy, you said to me “But go on putting your faith in them”.

A bit like the lotto mentality, or those who keep thinking the government should and will provide for them.

It might happen, enough and in time, for long enough for you. And one day for certain it won’t, no matter how much that generation of hopefuls might pray.
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July 2, 2010 10:11pm
Hurf Durf

I guess that’s where GM food comes in, Delirium. Let’s join the revolution! Oh wait, we can’t. The Green Party would rather we all starve to death.
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July 2, 2010 10:16pm
Pete George

Forms of genetic modification have been happening for thousands of years. Still are. We’ve got green, yellow, now red Chinese gooseberries. What colour will they come up with next?
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July 2, 2010 10:18pm
Haiku Dave

wishart’s still banging
on about ‘one world guvmint’,
some things never change
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July 2, 2010 10:20pm
krazykiwi

You have a lot of faith in unknowns there krazy.

Pete, what I do have faith in that on a scale of 1-100, if my understanding of technology, energy, resource management and human capability is 100, my parents were at 50, my grandparents where at 25… and my kids will be at 200, and my grandkids will be at 400.

Without being uncaring of their futures, I’m confident that tomorrows problems can be easily solved tomorrow, even when that appears impossible to me now.

I do not believe anyone who tells me that I must sacrifice progress today, for progress tomorrow. They’re not students of human history.
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July 2, 2010 10:30pm
Redbaiter

Shut the fuck up Haiku Dave, you pompous untalented bore.

Good read on “Extremist Conservatives”. See if you qualify. Cory Bernardi is one of the few politicians I have some time for.

What is an Extreme Conservative?
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July 2, 2010 10:31pm
krazykiwi

Perhaps Haiku Dave, you could critique said ‘banging’ rather than dismissing with pithy verse?
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July 2, 2010 10:32pm
nickb

Haiku Dave, you are about as funny as infanticide.
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July 2, 2010 10:33pm
krazykiwi

phil? phil? Come out little mouse. The cat wants to play.
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July 2, 2010 10:39pm
Pete George

An extreme “poor me conservative victim” sob.
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July 2, 2010 10:42pm
Hurf Durf

It’s Friday night. Shouldn’t you be washing your hair, Mr Moderate Centre Left?
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July 2, 2010 10:49pm
Redbaiter

“An extreme “poor me conservative victim” sob.”

Always pissed on Friday night Pete?
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July 2, 2010 10:50pm
Pete George

According to Mr Bernardi’s wee piece I am an extreme conservative without his self-pity and ACC ignorance.

No, RB, never. You?
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July 2, 2010 10:53pm
Redbaiter

I didn’t mean for you to read it Pete, as I know you don’t have the comprehension skills to fully understand what Mr. Bernardi is saying. And your responses have proved that expectation to have been quite correct.
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July 2, 2010 10:57pm
Haiku Dave

how old are you, russ?
your black/white worldview seems a
bit prepubescent
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July 3, 2010 12:02am
Pete George

I didn’t realise you don’t want anyone to actually read the links you post RB.

I can comprehend what Mr Bernardi is saying quite easily. He tries to say are few moderate common senses ideas are why someone has called him an extreme conservative. But he can’t help showing his fundamental fallacy when he lets his faith in something that can never be scientifically tested.

He says “that is not a good reason to suspend common sense and responsible scientific analysis” as he suspends common sense and any scientific analysis.

In short, he tries to seduce the nutters with a few very moderate ideas and then goes nuts.
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July 3, 2010 8:12am

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