General Debate 19 October 2011

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Pete George

Do you think, however, that this get up & go & entrepreneurial spirit can be taught in a classroom or is it a product of upbringing or maybe genetics?

I suspect it’s quite complex. It can depend on gender, where in a family they are and I’m sure other things. If I look at my three children they are all quite different:

1. Very enterprising, give anything a go without a second thought, makes things happen.
2. Takes things as they come and ends up where fate takes them.
3. Much more considered but also determined to achieve goals. Thinks more outside the square.
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October 19, 2011 4:05pm
Pete George

Another thought on kids at school has just come to mind, there is a real problem now with boys underachieving.

Up to a generation or two ago boys went to school to be educated as far as they were deemed capable and then were expected to move on to trades (at age 15) or professions.

Girls were educated for short term jobs like typing, most were expected to work for no more than a few years until they got married.

Now there is no ceiling on how much education girls can get, they mature faster than boys so more of them do better.

Can’t think of an easy way of addressing that. I wonder if single sex schools are more of an advantage for boys now than they used to be.
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October 19, 2011 4:12pm
Falafulu Fisi

Ciaron asked…
Scott Chris, have you studied fluid machanics….. at all?

Advance fluid mechanics does use vector calculus heavily. Even someone like Dr. Margaret Mutu (in which one of her supporters’ here on kiwiblog or perhaps it was Mutu herself using a pseudonym) can understand fluid mechanics (considering her background in integral calculus as claimed here on Kiwiblog) even she had never formally trained as a Mechanics/Physicist. That’s all one needs to know, the mathematics of it, and the specific domain knowledge (if currently lacked) can be understood in a short period of time.

I’m just wondering of how engineers are using their fluid mechanics’ knowledge here for the cleanup efforts.
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October 19, 2011 4:13pm
thedavincimode

ciaron

“Scott Chris, have you studied fluid machanics….. at all?”

ciaron, why do you think that he would think that that would matter?
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October 19, 2011 4:14pm
ciaron

@ thedavincimode 🙂
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October 19, 2011 4:15pm
Scott Chris

ciaron “have you studied fluid machanics” [sic]

Briefly in stage one physics at uni, but that is beside the point.

Were arguing ideas here, not credentials. I rebutted your assertions using basic physical principles. Care to address those?
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October 19, 2011 4:16pm
thedavincimode

Jesus wept.
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October 19, 2011 4:18pm
Scott Chris

thedavincimode

The idea, not the man. Do you understand the thrust of my idea? If so you are welcome to dismantle it.
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October 19, 2011 4:18pm
thedavincimode

“The idea, not the man”

Excuse me???

I’m happy to admit I know nothing about it SC. But since you’re such an expert, then like I said, shoot out and tell them what to do. Just wear something warm
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October 19, 2011 4:20pm
ciaron

I’m just wondering of how engineers are using their fluid mechanics’ knowledge here for the cleanup efforts.

Not being in any way involved, I’d imagine they’d have been figuring out the optimal size pipeline (given known perameters) optimal pump location (for all I know this may not be something they have control over) how to heat the oil safely given the conditions, what safety features need to be installed in the pipeline and where, how to vent the tanks with minimal exposure to loss if the hull catastrophically fails and probably a miriad of other things that we’re not even aware of. 🙂
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October 19, 2011 4:25pm
Scott Chris

davincimode says:- “But since you’re such an expert, then like I said, shoot out and tell them what to do.”

What’s the point in saying that? When did I ever say I was an expert?

I have simply posed a series of questions, and proposed an idea. I specifically made that clear.

Quote: (note the *emphasis*)

Scott Chris (2,259) Says:
October 19th, 2011 at 2:04 pm

*Just* a thought: (based on the assumption that HFO is non-compressible)

Imagine your screw type pump……etc
___________________________________________________________________________________________

People on this site seem to get all tetchy when I disagree with them. I attack the idea, not the person so ffs, DON’T TAKE IT PERSONALLY!!!!!
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October 19, 2011 4:29pm
thedavincimode

ciaron

Typical engineer – getting bogged down in the minor detail.

You need to focus on the BIG PICTURE!!
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October 19, 2011 4:30pm
alex Masterley

I think you will find the salvors will know what works and what doesn’t.

They will not be debating how to do the job.

They will just be doing it as best they can taking account of the conditions that they are facing. I see little point in debating the minutiae of pumping HFO of the Rena as it won’t achieve anything.

Anyway the MSA has hired a salvage master who is overseeing the Switzer guys to make sure best practice is followed.
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October 19, 2011 4:40pm
5minArgument

@ciaron – based on the interview content and body language of the local MSC representatives, not really. But if it was completely voluntary then I have absolutely no issue with it and good on them. The coercive undertones and lack of gratitude (“It’s a start”) from JK & SJ that leaves me a bit cold. Hopefully the pollies weren’t just playing the populist card trying to make them look culpable and genuinely appreciated the offer….but I remain unconvinced.
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October 19, 2011 4:41pm
Scott Chris

thedavincimode “Typical engineer”

Sounds like a civil engineer to me. Yes ad hom, but I owed him a couple.

Problem with civil engineers is they can’t see the big or the small picture, but they’re good on regulations.
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October 19, 2011 4:41pm
thedavincimode

SC

I should have added – don’t forget to take your Stage I physics results, your Marine Engineering qualification and your degrees in Naval Architecture, Meteorology and Oceanography. A pair of stout safety boots with a high grip tread would probably come in handy too.
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October 19, 2011 4:43pm
ciaron

thedavincimode (2,268) Says:

October 19th, 2011 at 4:30 pm
ciaron

Typical engineer – getting bogged down in the minor detail.

You need to focus on the BIG PICTURE

It’s all about the scope man!!!! (thank the Lord for disclaimers)
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October 19, 2011 4:45pm
thedavincimode

“Problem with civil engineers is they can’t see the big or the small picture, but they’re good on regulations.”

Source please.
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October 19, 2011 4:45pm
thedavincimode

ciaron

“thank the Lord for disclaimers”

And PI cover.
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October 19, 2011 4:46pm
ciaron

Please point out any ad homs, as I can only see where I said: your fantasyland contributions, which is expressing ridicule at your contribution not you personally Scott.
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October 19, 2011 4:59pm
Scott Chris

ciaron says:- “Please point out any ad homs, as I can only see where I said: your fantasyland contributions”

-“have you studied fluid machanics….. at all”

Apart from implying I was a fantasist, you also attacked my credibility. Two of the most common ad homs that there are.

So common in fact that you appear not to have noticed using them.

They amount to:

“You’re bonkers”

and

“You don’t know what you’re talking about.”

Anything that attacks the credibility or character of your opponent is an ad hom.

Pray don’t use the old excuse of, “I just wanted to hear you say it.”
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October 19, 2011 5:12pm
DavidC

From what I have read and some numbers I did on the back of an envelope I think its going to come down to ability of the steam plant to heat it back to something like 50 C and at 1300 tonnes its going to need 27 000 Kw hrs of heat energy at 100% transfer.
Hopefully a very high discharge perssure pump can move this stuff cold.
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October 19, 2011 5:23pm
thedavincimode

Are you still here Scott?

Don’t forget those boots.
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October 19, 2011 5:38pm
ciaron

Gee Scott, get over yourself. You are postulating theories which look ok in basic principal, but you are simply not taking into account all of the very obvious variables and difficulties (not to mention the ones we are unaware of), of which the guys on the ground have an infinitely better understanding than either you or me. If pointing out this very obvious shortcoming in your analysis makes you feel like I’m having a go at you personally, then I apologise for that, as it was not my intent.
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October 19, 2011 5:55pm
Scott Chris

ciaron

I think you mistake me for someone who thinks he knows more than other professionals. I’m not.

I’m not afraid, however of asking simple questions, or of putting forward simple ideas. In doing so, it often leads to a greater understanding of what other experts are up to.

As far as I’m concerned, a man who keeps his mouth closed for fear of being exposed as a fool is quite likely to be one anyway.
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October 19, 2011 6:19pm
thedavincimode

“I’m not afraid … of putting forward simple ideas”

😆

… and keep your leggings over your boots – don’t tuck them in.
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October 19, 2011 6:28pm
Viking2

Auckland apparently os doing fabulous under Brown and Rodney is a failure. Well according these over paid thinking lefties.
http://www.theaucklander.co.nz/news/brown-v-hide-whos-winner/1134759/
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October 19, 2011 6:53pm
Viking2

I would still ask the question as to why the effort is going into removing the oil when at cold temperatures its bloody near rock solid. Seal it up for now and get on with important stuff. It ain’t going nowwhere.

Naaska or johnboy.
You guys know a bit about this stuff.
My observation is that its like the old coal tar but with more bitumen like characteristics.
Now the guys working with bitumen and or hot mix use kero as a thinner and a cleaner. Would adding kero the the pump line assist with thinning this stuff and making it easier to pump. The type of pump would soon mix it into a slurry.
If one handles molasses or treacle then one uses water as the lubricant so is it possible that kero would do the same for this oil?
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October 19, 2011 7:06pm
Scott Chris

An Accountant, a Rabbi and a Hindu are traveling in the countryside.

Weary, they stop at a small country inn. “I only have two rooms, so one of you will have to sleep in the barn,” the innkeeper says.

The Hindu volunteers to sleep in the barn, goes outside, and the others go to bed. In a short time they’re awakened by a knock.

It’s the Hindu, who says, “There’s a cow in that barn. It would offend my beliefs to sleep next to a sacred animal.”

The Rabbi says that, OK, he’ll sleep in the barn. The others go back to bed, but soon are awakened by another knock.

It’s the Rabbi who says, “There’s a pig in that barn. I’m Jewish, and cannot sleep next to an unclean animal.” So the Accountant is sent to the barn.

It’s getting late, the others are very tired and soon fall asleep. But they’re awakened by an even louder knocking.

They open the door and are surprised by what they see: It’s the cow and the pig.
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October 19, 2011 7:11pm
Viking2

LABOR has set up secret carbon price spin unit to help it sell its deeply unpopular carbon tax.

The carbon price implementation team is staffed by five Labor operatives, reporting directly to Climate Change Minister Greg Combet.

The unit’s senior adviser-level head earns up to $170,000 a year, while its four adviser-level staffers draw salaries of up to $115,000.

The team is based in parliament house and works from an office adjacent to the climate change minister.

Its existence was revealed in a one-line entry in documents presented to a Senate committee.

The unit was quietly established on July 4, five days before details of the government’s carbon pricing scheme were revealed.

Liberal Senate leader Eric Abetz said it was perverse that taxpayers were now funding a Labor “propaganda unit” to sell a tax Australians didn’t want.

Labour is slimy no matter which country.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/carbon-plan/coalition-complains-of-propaganda-unit-set-up-to-sell-labors-carbon-tax/story-fn99tjf2-1226170412504
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October 19, 2011 7:15pm
Pete George

TV3:

Mana Party leader Mr Harawira wants a strong punishment for the Rena’s captain.

“Hanging the poor bugger might sound a bit harsh, but somebody should pay,” he said.

“Maybe we can send the Rena captain home with a stern warning and put Steven Joyce up on the gallows in his place.”

The Herald:

Among those outside the court were Greenpeace respresentatives and Mana Party leader Hone Harawira, who told the protesters of the two captains in court today:

“They should give one a gold medal and hang the other bugger.”
Many shouted cries of support at the comment.

Hat tip to: “Clearly is Harawira is joking. He’s angry (we all are) – but he’s taking the piss.”
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October 19, 2011 7:20pm
joana

The 90 day law has brought slave like conditions on South Island’s dairy farms; mind you there were already slave like conditions in some industries in CHCH.
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October 19, 2011 7:42pm
joana

Robert Spencer is coming to Australia.
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October 19, 2011 7:48pm
joana

Lofty
Christopher Doig recently said if he had had colonoscopies he would not be dying. He is someone who could have contributed to society for many more years.
So you live in Auckland then?
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October 19, 2011 7:51pm
nasska

V2

Keeping in mind that I lay no claim to expertise on the subject I agree that it would probably be theoretically be possible to dissolve the HFO with a solvent. Practically the idea would founder on mixing the two…..also the solvent would be inflammable which would raise another set of problems.

There’ll be some pretty bright boys working on any possible solution but as I commented at 9.10am they probably need equipment that hasn’t yet been made because no one has needed it up until now.
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October 19, 2011 7:59pm
nasska

Prison vs. work (for all you desk jockeys)

IN PRISON……….you spend the majority of your time in a 10X10 cell.
AT WORK…………you spend the majority of your time in an 8X8 cubicle.

IN PRISON………you get three meals a day.
AT WORK………..you get a break for one meal and you have to pay for it.

IN PRISON……….you get time off for good behavior.
AT WORK…………you get more work for good behavior.

IN PRISON……….the guard locks and unlocks all the doors for you.
AT WORK…………you’re often required to carry a security card and open all the doors yourself.

IN PRISON……….you can watch TV and play games.
AT WORK………..you get fired for watching TV and playing games.

IN PRISON………you get your own toilet.
AT WORK……….you share the toilet with some people who piss on the seat.

IN PRISON……….they allow your family and friends to visit.
AT WORK…………you’re not supposed to even speak to your family.

IN PRISON………all expenses are paid by the taxpayers.
AT WORK…………you pay all your expenses to get to work, and then they deduct taxes from your salary to pay for prisoners.

IN PRISON……….you spend most of your life inside bars wanting to get out.
AT WORK ………..you spend most of your time wanting to get out and go inside bars.

IN PRISON ………you must deal with sadistic wardens.
AT WORK………..they’re called managers.
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October 19, 2011 8:05pm
Steve

A woman was walking down the street when she was approached by a man.
The man said, ” I want to have SEX with you right now! I’ll drop 500 dollars on the ground at your feet and in the time it takes for you to pick it up I will screw you from behind and be on my way!”
The woman thought it over and told the man to wait a minute.
She called her girlfriend on her cell phone and told her about the man’s proposition.
Her girlfriend said ” When he drops the $500 on the ground I’m sure you can pick it up and run before he gets his pants down. Call me back and tell me what happened.”
An hour and a half later the lady called her girlfriend back. What happened?” the girlfriend asked.
The lady said ” That Son-Of-A-Bitch had $500 in 20 cent pieces”
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October 19, 2011 8:07pm
nasska

The level of pollution in the world today is becoming intolerable.
Only the other day I opened a can of sardines to find it was full of oil and all the fish were dead.
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October 19, 2011 8:30pm
Viking2

Its just not Ture. Trev hasn’t retired YET.

He still out there promoting scare stories and PSA type clap trap.
Anyone would think Australia was the other side of the wrold rather than a couple of hours away. you should visit the place Trev.

Labour strategist Trevor Mallard said it would have been better if the country could have held on to good people without losing them to Australia.
Of course, Trev, but why have they all gone. (9 years of bloody awful snarly we know best shit from your lot. 9 years of not being valued as a citizen of NZ.)

Loss of experts blamed for spill delays

http://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/rena-crisis/5818178/Loss-of-experts-blamed-for-spill-delays
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October 20, 2011 6:47am
Viking2

Why we shouldn’t give jut any old policeman a gun.

Police say he was shot after he approached a police officer in Otane, south of Hastings, saying he had a gun, and threatened to kill him.

Dur, kids do this every day.

Man shot by police in Hawke’s Bay

Thursday, 20, Oct, 2011 7:25AM

A man’s been shot by police this morning and is in Hawke’s Bay Hospital.

The 48-year-old is in a stable condition.

Police say he was shot after he approached a police officer in Otane, south of Hastings, saying he had a gun, and threatened to kill him.

The man will face numerous charges relating to this and other incidents in Hawke’s Bay this week.
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October 20, 2011 8:16am

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