General Debate 28 October 2011

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bereal

Manolo
you are too smart for me.
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October 28, 2011 6:54pm
Pauleastbay

Reid

Can you have automatic weapons in the fort, looking down on people ?
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October 28, 2011 6:56pm
thedavincimode

eastbay

You don’t need automatic weapons because you are the ideal government. Everybody loves you. 🙂
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October 28, 2011 6:59pm
reid

Can you have automatic weapons in the fort, looking down on people ?

I can and do Paul. My best weapon is a giant laser cannon in a mountain, which I occasionally need to use to enhance the Treasury, by threatening to shoot down the odd satellite and sometimes actually doing it just to show I’m not kidding. It’s amazing how much people don’t like it when you do that.
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October 28, 2011 7:00pm
bereal

Gotta go now but,
what happened to Scott Chris and his mentor philu ?
A comment every second effort all day long untill about 5 today then nothing.
3500 odd efforts between them till now, Cat must have got their tongue.
Still. i bet bet they will make up for it 2 morro.
G’nite.
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October 28, 2011 7:03pm
F E Smith

You don’t need automatic weapons because you are the ideal government. Everybody loves you

Didn’t Machiavelli say it is better to be feared than loved? If so, then let’s have lots of guns on that fort!!!
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October 28, 2011 7:25pm
Scott Chris

thedavincimode says:- “you haven’t actually proposed anything other than some bland fuzzy wuzzy type thing”

I disagree.

First, I am not writing an thesis here, and second, I the definition is only vague because it is broad.

>>”1. define government”

I did. Government is society’s appointed arbitrator to fairly resolve conflicts of interest. The government would be initially charged with the responsibility of drafting a constitution in compliance with the idea that human beings are reasonable, and writing the law that arises from the constitution as the means of administering governance.

>>2. define what is “fair

I did. “[The notion of] Fairness is derived from the assumption that all humans beings are born intrinsically equal, and are then granted the right, by mutual societal consent, to a *reasonable* opportunity to pursue happiness.”

>>”3. indicate the means of resolution”

A judicial system, charged with upholding the law written by the government, based on the constitutional definition of personal and property rights.

With regard to conflict of interest, the best way to define this is to ask, “Is the physical action I am now engaged in affecting anyone else? If so, is it to his detriment? If so, am I entitled to make this action as defined by our law and constitution?”

>>”explain how a government may act impartially given that its existence is attributable to partisan interests and whether that necessitates some alternative means of appointing governments.”

In theory, a liberal government faithful to its principles would be impartial. That is the essence of liberal philosophy.
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October 28, 2011 7:37pm
thedavincimode

“I am not writing an thesis here, and second, I the definition is only vague because it is broad”

zzzzzzzzzzzzz …

SZ:Ld saj pcdiwajfm/asd;c?XKs;deq;’jm vksvvblfk bl/v gl;

… zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
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October 28, 2011 7:40pm
Scott Chris

Anyway, I’ve had a crack at answering Dav’s list.

Anyone else like to give it a go with their ideal government?

Smith? Reid? Bereal? Dav? Eastbay?

Also curious to know why Smithy is so reluctant to define his idea of what constitutes the political spectrum…..
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October 28, 2011 7:40pm
Viking2

So the Greens are Liarbour in Drag.

Greens MP Tammy Franks blames marriage split for tax lapse
A SOUTH Australian Greens MP has admitted she failed to lodge tax returns for a decade, blaming a marriage breakdown for the lapse.

Tammy Franks, 43, pleaded guilty to 10 counts of failing to furnish a taxation approved form between 2001 and 2010 at the Adelaide Magistrates Court today.

Ms Franks, a member of the South Australian Legislative Council, said stressful personal circumstances had played a role.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/greens-mp-tammy-franks-blames-marriage-split-for-tax-lapse/story-e6frg6nf-1226179711997
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October 28, 2011 7:43pm
philu

the big difference between this election and the last..

..is that national went into 2008 promising to give something to the people…huge tax cuts..

(of course that was the first of many promises they broke..eh..?..)

..this time they are going into it promising to take something away from the people…their state-owned assets..

..the nearer the election comes..

..the clearer into focus that difference will become..

..phil(whoar.co.nz)
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October 28, 2011 7:51pm
nasska

It’s the 2012 Olympics. The final of the Hammer Throw event is shaping up for an exciting finish. It’s all come down to a Russian military officer, an American farmer and an unemployed New Zealander named Phillip Ure.

The Russian throws first: 85 metres, just short of the world record.

Interviewed after the event he said, “My grandfather was in the military, my father was in the military and I am in the military. This gives me strength and discipline.”

Then the American throws: 88 metres, breaking the world record.

Interviewed after the event he said, “My grandfather was a farmer, my father was a farmer and I am a farmer. This gives me strength and discipline.”

The New Zealander saunters up to the nets, sneers at the TV cameras and slings the hammer 95 metres, breaking the world record and winning gold for the Kiwis.

When interviewed after the event Mr Ure said, “My grandfather was unemployed, my father was unemployed and both said to me, ‘If anyone ever puts a hammer in your hand, throw it as far as you fucking can’.”
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October 28, 2011 8:00pm
Batman

Is anybody watching this Labour opening statement? apparently the sun shines out of Labour’s arsehole and everything bad that has ever happened is National’s fault.

Hateful.

Scaremongering.

its awful!!
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October 28, 2011 8:06pm
RF

Does philu get his / her rocks off by posting utter rubbish. Becoming very tired of the juvenile postings that spoil a great site.

Surely “it” would receive a far better reception over on the dark side
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October 28, 2011 8:14pm
philu

wow..!..the national party opening both sucked and blew..

..and the labour one both rocked and rolled..

(they almost convinced me to vote for them..i had to pinch myself..)

..and that is some powerful medicine they are peddling there..

the green one has just opened…children playing by river..my heart is sinking..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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October 28, 2011 8:20pm
philu

turei just did a walking camel-toe…

..good grief..!

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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October 28, 2011 8:22pm
philu

i am feeling my will to live slipping away…

..it is beyond lame…

..it sets a new benchmark in stilted…

..everything the labour one wasn’t..

..labour have won this one hands down..

..who wrote that crap for the greens..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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October 28, 2011 8:24pm
reid

Anyone else like to give it a go with their ideal government?

Smith? Reid? Bereal? Dav? Eastbay?

Sigh, I already did Scott, before you wrote that. See above.

(they almost convinced me to vote for them..i had to pinch myself..)

Yes phil their poisonous fangs were just dripping with injustice and envy weren’t they. I’m not surprised you lapped it up like a dog does with his own vomit.

Why approx 50% of the population ever bother to listen to anything they ever say, is beyond me. My operating hypothesis is: they’re all mental thickos who don’t understand anything.

I developed that hypothesis phil from studying your posts in detail, interpolating the essence of mental thicko-ness therein and extrapolating same into those who talk such shite as you. It’s quite interesting data.

Thanks for giving me a bit more, just now.
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October 28, 2011 8:26pm
Scott Chris

bereal says:- “how do you define the political spectrum?”

Left…………………………………………….Center……………………………………….Right

Socially:

Pandering………………………………….Tolerant……………………………………..Intolerant.

Economically:

Control Freak……………………………..Facilitator……………………………………Anarchy.
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October 28, 2011 8:31pm
Steve

My ideal Government would be one that did not suck up to shitbags like Phool, just to get a vote.
Liarbore, Greens, Mana thrive on the shitbag vote. Promise everything and the blame someone else
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October 28, 2011 8:32pm
Steve

Scott, stop it with the full stops ok.
Makes people get excited over nothing
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October 28, 2011 8:33pm
reid

Left…………………………………………….Center……………………………………….Right

Socially:

Pandering………………………………….Tolerant……………………………………..Intolerant.

Economically:

Control Freak……………………………..Facilitator……………………………………Anarchy.

Scott, what the hell are you talking about?

What the hell, socially, is “pandering,” for example?

I have many other questions about your dimensions. You’re not a pol studies student are you?
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October 28, 2011 8:35pm
Scott Chris

reid says:- “I already did Scott, before you wrote that. See above.”

So you want to be like Christopher Lee in the “Man With The Golden Gun”

Well, to give you credit, at least you are not as coy as the Dav and Smithy.
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October 28, 2011 8:38pm
Scott Chris

reid says:- “You’re not a pol studies student are you?”

No, otherwise I would just have posted this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_spectrum

Pandering is what lefties do socially. Pandering = Ultra PC no dissing muslims and feminists and cripples. (ie pandering to oversensitive minority groups)
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October 28, 2011 8:42pm
reid

OK so why is pandering on the same spectrum as tolerance? One has nothing to do with the other.

Scott, lefties think society is rife with intolerance. It’s all over the place, they think. They think, intolerance is the reason bad outcomes such as inter-generational poverty, exists.

This is so fucking mental, one hardly knows where to begin.

It’s a bit of an unwritten assumption that anyone who comments a lot here, already gets “the facts of life.”

The best political spectral analysis tool I’ve seen was the one on KB here a few years ago, with the two dimensions which I can’t recall, but that was astute and accurate.

Wish I could remember a search keyword for it.
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October 28, 2011 8:53pm
Scott Chris

Reid says:- “OK so why is pandering on the same spectrum as tolerance”

Perhaps the way I set it out isn’t clear.

I have lefties as being panderers socially and control freaks economically

I have centrists as being socially tolerant and economic facilitators and overall superheros.

I have righties as socially intolerant and economic anarchists.
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October 28, 2011 9:02pm
philu

you seem a bit bitter there reid…

was it something i said…?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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October 28, 2011 9:13pm
philu

an interesting campaign start for the undergdog…

..labour came out and kicked nationals’ arse…severely..

..makes one think again of that rugby game..eh..?

one-term john it is then..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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October 28, 2011 9:16pm
reid

Sir Peter and the Hobbit crew started filming on location in Hobbiton five days ago, after having already shot 110 days of The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey Part 1 in his Wellington Weta studios.

The movie will premiere in Wellington and will then go on general release around the world on December 14 next year.

I predict that if part one is already 110 days long and growing, it’s not going to have the same box-office impact as Jackson’s previous magnificent works.
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October 28, 2011 9:16pm
philu

you mean all those cross-country hiking films he did..?

..haven’t seen them myself..

..didn’t like the book..

..thought it a tiresome pile of overwrought tosh..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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October 28, 2011 9:25pm
reid

I have righties as socially intolerant and economic anarchists.

Crikey.

Really?

How come Scott you find conservatives in all of the behind the scenes charitable roles: i.e. the ones which do the real work. You know, the meals on wheels, volunteers, helpers of all kinds. Huge numbers of conservative ladies in those areas. Conservatives as a rule don’t care to advertise their givings, either. Thus giving rise to sly whispering campaigns spread by evil, sleazy, dirty people, that conservatives give nothing.

All of this reality Scott, in some people’s minds, is ignored by those who think conservatives are ‘socially intolerant.’

As to “economic anarchists.”

Crikey Scott. If you don’t understand Keynesian vs Hayeckian in detail, I can’t explain it here and now. Just google “Commanding Heights” and get back after watching all six hours of it, if you don’t understand what I’m saying.
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October 28, 2011 9:25pm
emmess

Labours campaign opening was bloody awful.
All living the past (1930s propaganda reels FFS?) and negativity.
What floating or leaaning Labour voters are going to be impressed by that?
Greens looked moderate by comparison.
Only hard left socialists will be love it.
Case in point Phool thinks it is the best thing since dope.
To paraphrase Maggie Thatcher, Labour are in the process of writing the longest suicide note in history.
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October 28, 2011 9:34pm
reid

was it something i said…?

phil, yes. Seriously, this is what it is. Please don’t treat this superficially, give me some respect.

You have a lot of insight, to offer us, and you are succinct concise and actually IMO is capable of adding heaps of value.

But everything has to be applied in the right way.

And what you do mate, is just play the same record. Instead of giving us the why you think why you do on any given issue, you just give us the what you think, on that issue. And we already know what you think phil, we can predict. But you never give us the why.

Where oh where is the why, phil?
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October 28, 2011 9:34pm
philu

batman..obviously disconcerted by his viewing..said..

..”..apparently the sun shines out of Labour’s arsehole and everything bad that has ever happened is National’s fault…”

well aside from that rogernomics period…(and their ignoring of the poor last time out..)

..that is pretty much how it went down…

..historically labour built the most equal country in the world…

..and equally historically national has dismantled that..making us now one of the most unequal countries..

..and how about how rich we would be now had muldoon not dismantled labours super scheme..?..whoar..!..eh..?

..what exactly is historically incorrect about that..?..there..batman..?

..i was hoping labour would look/turn back to their roots..

..they have exceeded my expectations…

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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October 28, 2011 9:38pm
Inky_the_Red

emmess
After Key’s opening address the Labour one was a ray of sunshine.
At least they paid for an editor looks like the Nats used a 10 year school boy in a hurry to go out to the All Black parade
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October 28, 2011 9:38pm
philu

which ‘why?’ were you looking at there..reid..?

i’ll see if i can help..

..(question has been irony-scanned..it is clean..)

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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October 28, 2011 9:40pm
philu

emmess…were we watching different openings..?

pray do tell us the good parts about that ‘night of the zombies’ appearance from key..

…bring us up to speed on how/why it was so good..?

..did you like the set..?..the ill-cut/too dark suit..?..the terrible lighting…?..the amatuer filming..?

..the stilted q& a…?..the utter life-sapping dreariness of the whole thing..?

..do tell..!

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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October 28, 2011 9:45pm
Scott Chris

reid, I was defining the extremes of a two dimensional spectrum. And it was purposely subjective to illustrate how loose the term “political spectrum” is.

That is why F E Smith is so reluctant to define it himself. Mind you, it’d be nice if he just had the humility to just admit it.

Couple of other things:

A conservative can be intolerant, but still patronize the charities he favours. That’s up to him. We liberals have to tolerate that, even though he doesn’t have to tolerate us. I wouldn’t complain if I were you. It’s a sweet deal.

Also, economic anarchy is simply free market capitalism with no government control. It doesn’t mean an absence of culture though. Still, the government is basically formalized culture anyway, so it’s all academic really.
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October 28, 2011 9:53pm
reid

No particular “why,” phil.

More of a “general background tactical re-assessment in the comms unit” suggestion is where I was coming from.

That suggestion is in respect only of content in your message, not in style of delivery, which for some reason you persist in but no, not talking about latter, only former, only content in your message mate, not your style. Go for it, re: your style. My observation is simply around content in that, I know you have your reasons for your positions, but you never lay them out for us mate. That’s basically it. I personally always explain my thinking, or try to. But it seems to me phil that often you just tell us the answer you’ve come to, without giving us the equations you’ve made which result in your conclusion.

And you, my friend, are much better than that. That’s it, really.
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October 28, 2011 10:02pm
reid

A conservative can be intolerant, but still patronize the charities he favours. That’s up to him. We liberals have to tolerate that, even though he doesn’t have to tolerate us. I wouldn’t complain if I were you. It’s a sweet deal.

Scott I’m beginning to suspect you haven’t got a soul. Do you not understand you profoundly illustrate twisted lefty thinking in that quote?

Let me explain.

You leaped immediately and utterly to the extreme opposite pole. As an instant reaction to what I’d said:

Scott you find conservatives in all of the behind the scenes charitable roles: i.e. the ones which do the real work. You know, the meals on wheels, volunteers, helpers of all kinds. Huge numbers of conservative ladies in those areas. Conservatives as a rule don’t care to advertise their givings, either.

Crikey, Scott.
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October 28, 2011 10:13pm
Scott Chris

reid, two things. Firstly, you are taking what I have to say far too seriously. (ironically, you said the same thing to me the other day). I am making some points, but having a bit of fun too.

Secondly, I have no soul. I am my brain. When I die, that will be it, although like everyone else, had I never existed, the world would be a slightly different place, so that is mine and everyone else’s immortal legacy. Nothing can ever change that.

But the consciousness has to stop, because there in no longer the mechanism to support it. On the other hand, I do consider myself a compassionate person, if that’s what you mean by soul.
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October 28, 2011 10:25pm
F E Smith

That is why F E Smith is so reluctant to define it himself

See, there you go, making things up again. It is Friday night and I have better things to do than pander to your intolerance of the right. I am sometimes a slow learner, but I have worked out that the best way to do things is to criticise you and then move on, before you move the goalposts.

I am ignoring you, rather than unable to engage in the debate.
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October 28, 2011 10:30pm
reid

if that’s what you mean by soul

A profound and complex yet also simple question Scott which questions change as we grow. That’s my observation of my own soul Scott, without getting into detail. What’s your’s like?

If you think Scott that Cogito Ergo Sum is all there is, I suggest you apply to become an industrial robot. But I know you’re not like that Scott. Neither are conservatives, BTW.
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October 28, 2011 10:34pm
Scott Chris

FE Smith says:- “I am ignoring you, rather than unable to engage in the debate.”

Plainly you aren’t Smithy. This is self evident. But I’m sure you will pretend to ignore this 😉
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October 28, 2011 10:40pm
Scott Chris

reid says:- “I suggest you apply to become an industrial robot”

reid, I only make one assumption beyond that which I can perceive with my senses.

That is: Everything is God.

As far as I can see, there should be nothing. Existence makes no sense to me, so I call everything God, because it is immeasurably complex and contains self awareness and is omnipresent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheism
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October 28, 2011 10:51pm
philu

how about you go first reid..
.
.you tell us why you follow the historical myths/allegories that have been woven into the fabric of that christian cult…?

..from the earth being 6,000 yrs old…and on and on..

..i would like to know the ‘why?’..of that..?

..i don’t want a screed of scripture..

..i want your reasons ‘why?’..

..were you indoctrinated into the group-belief at a very young age..?

..or did you have a quasi-mystical experience as an adult that turned you that way..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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October 28, 2011 11:22pm
emmess

@philu and inky
I didn’t see all of National’s opening but what I saw I’ll admit wasn’t that exciting and flashy.
All John Key did was explain a few policies and reinforce what we already know about National, it wasn’t a major rebranding exercise, unlike Labour who are hell bent on rebranding themselves as loonies lefties (which is why you guys loved it,am I not correct)
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October 28, 2011 11:59pm
philu

emmess..if you define ‘loonie (sic) lefties’..

..as those who want a country with a strong social net..

..where one child in five is not living in poverty..

..and where all..and i mean all..are afforded the dignities of a basic existance..

..and aren’t forced into homelessness/begging/third-world housing..

..then hey..!

..i will stick my hand up as a ‘loonie (sic) leftie’..

..eh..?

..as will many others on election day..

..one-term-john it is…

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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October 29, 2011 6:56am
Brian Harmer

Deborah Hill-Cone’s column in Friday’s NZ Herald: “The right-wing bloggers, with the exception of the avuncular David Farrar, are just as bitter as the lefty tossers”

The thing that made me laugh, David was that passion-kiiller of an adjective: “avuncular” … youth is fading into the past 🙂
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October 29, 2011 7:32am
Scott Chris

Brian Harmer says:- “the avuncular David Farrar”

Hmm, Avuncular… don’t know about that. More like benevolent dictator, although Hill- Cone is possibly referring to his demeanour on “The Panel”, which is certainly that of a wise and affable uncle.
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October 29, 2011 7:49am
Scott Chris

F E Smith says:- “but I have worked out that the best way to do things is to criticise you and then move on, before you move the goalposts.”

Couple of things here.

1) I don’t move goalposts once their position has been established. Why do you think I was asking you to define what your idea of the political spectrum is? Surely you of all people should know that semantic soccer is a waste of time when you don’t know what the ball looks like.

2) Making some snide and irrelevant comment and scurrying off without justifying is really rather cowardly.
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October 29, 2011 8:12am
Griff

reid was referring to the liberal conservative spectrum not to the left right spectrum
I am right wing I.e government should have minimal assets and concentrate on governance
liberal as government has no right to interfere in the life’s of its citizens provided no other person is directly effected

political compass http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_compass
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October 29, 2011 8:42am

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