General Debate 8 October 2011

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iMP

DISHONESTY CRIMES:
The jailing of Lab MP Timmy Barnett’s ex partner Jonathan Kirkpatrick (ex Dean of Dunedin Cathedral) for ripping off AUT for goodness sake while being paid 150k;
the catching of that 17-year old in New Plymouth for Trademe rip-offs;
and the stealing of medals, war history and other militaria by a trusted Waioura museum staff member;

are actually more undermining of NZ society than dairy effluent.

Dishonesty is like a cancer, it eats away at civil structures. Moral vacuum = selfish disregard for everyone = Mexico. I hope Judge severely punishes the three criminals quoted above, and sends a strong message. There’s just too much of it, and I no longer trust the average person in NZ, which is sad.
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October 8, 2011 8:13am
Scott Chris

Steve Jobs In A Nutshell. Fascinating:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/world/5751226/Who-was-Steve-Jobs-the-man

“…described his experiences with LSD as “one of the two or three most important things I’ve done…..”

“Jobs just looked at Bodenheimer and said nothing other than “your phone is the dumbest f—ing idea I have ever heard”…”

“Jobs: Nike makes some of the best products in the world – products that you lust after, absolutely beautiful stunning products. But you also make a lot of crap..”
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October 8, 2011 8:15am
wreck1080

why do people insist on taking drugs to bali.

Silly silly people .

Just goes to show, laws cannot stop drugs.
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October 8, 2011 8:17am
Scott Chris

Prison Population Falls for First Time Since The Great Depression:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/5752139/Countrys-prison-roll-tumbling

Sanity breaking out in policing methods:

“We’re actually making more arrests but we’re putting less people in front of the courts”

In other words: “Giving them *time out* to come to their senses”
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October 8, 2011 8:27am
Manolo

The spreading of malware: http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/10/virus-hits-drone-fleet/
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October 8, 2011 8:33am
Other_Andy

An article for all our followers of the AGW , Mother Gaia, cult on Kiwiblog.
For Mikenmild, YesWeDid, Toad, david winter, Scott Chris, Sam Buchanan, Samv, Cha, Questlove, Happyinmotion et al and especially for Luc ‘Hamas’ Hansen.

The Climate Change Scare Machine — the perpetual self-feeding cycle of alarm

Two professors of sociology think they can explain why “Climate Deniers” are winning. But Riley E. Dunlap and Aaron M. McCright start from the wrong assumption and miss the bleeding obvious: the theory was wrong, the evidence has changed, and thousands of volunteers have exposed it.
The real question sociologists will be studying for years to come is: how was an exaggerated scare, based on so little evidence, poor reasoning and petty name calling, kept alive for two whole decades?

http://joannenova.com.au/2011/10/map-the-climate-change-scare-machine-the-perpetual-self-feeding-cycle-of-alarm/
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October 8, 2011 8:41am
Scott Chris

Andy, doesn’t it strike you as odd that the climate appears to be getting warmer in spite of a recent solar minimum, and in line with these “cranky and alarmist” predictions?

Seems nature is in on the conspiracy.
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October 8, 2011 8:49am
Other_Andy

“Andy, doesn’t it strike you as odd that the climate appears to be getting warmer….”

One of the major puzzles in climate change is why the average global temperature has not changed for at least a decade. When it was first noticed a few years ago, most scientists – and almost all commentators – dismissed it as a blip in the data that would soon go away. It did not. Now scientists are struggling to explain why the world has not warmed in an age of supposed global warming. The fact is that we live in the warmest decade of at least the past few hundred years, but in the past decade it has not gotten any warmer and that is difficult to explain.

“Twelve-month long drop in world temperatures wipes out a century of warming
Over the past year, anecdotal evidence for a cooling planet has exploded. China has its coldest winter in 100 years. Baghdad sees its first snow in all recorded history. North America has the most snowcover in 50 years, with places like Wisconsin the highest since record-keeping began. Record levels of Antarctic sea ice, record cold in Minnesota, Texas, Florida, Mexico, Australia, Iran, Greece, South Africa, Greenland, Argentina, Chile — the list goes on and on.
No more than anecdotal evidence, to be sure. But now, that evidence has been supplanted by hard scientific fact. All four major global temperature tracking outlets (Hadley, NASA’s GISS, UAH, RSS) have released updated data. All show that over the past year, global temperatures have dropped precipitously.”

http://www.dailytech.com/Temperature+Monitors+Report+Widescale+Global+Cooling/article10866.htm

And…
Even if it is getting warmer, it is highly unlikely it is caused by humans.
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October 8, 2011 8:59am
Elaycee

wreck1080 says: “why do people insist on taking drugs to bali. Silly silly people. Just goes to show, laws cannot stop drugs.”

The Law in Indonesia is just that – a Law. If people choose to go to Indonesia, then they have to abide by the rule of Law. In this case, the real malaise is that someone thought they were beyond the Law. And now that they have been caught, they have to accept the consequences.
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October 8, 2011 9:05am
hj

Conservatives in the “green and pleasant land”

“It seems that the door to new roads has swung open again. The Conservatives have long had an interest in getting people off public transport and into cars. Public transport is often unionised. It pools resources and encourages social mixing and collective action. Car driving, by contrast, isolates us from other people and encourages us to see society – pedestrians, bicycles, other cars, speed limits, traffic calming – as an obstacle. The car drives us to the right. It is a powerful but overlooked agent of political change. ”
http://www.monbiot.com/2011/10/06/roads-to-ruin/
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October 8, 2011 9:10am
tristanb

It looks like this poor guy is dead:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10757458&ref=rss
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/5751900/Man-dead-after-Viaduct-assault

What’s the bet the scumbags who killed him will get less than ten years in jail.
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October 8, 2011 9:17am
MyNameIsJack

Scott Chris (1,874) Says:

October 8th, 2011 at 8:27 am
Prison Population Falls for First Time Since The Great Depression:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/5752139/Countrys-prison-roll-tumbling

Jesusonafuckingpogostick, learn to read beyond the headline.

In the past decade the prison population grew by 45.6 per cent – but the latest annual Justice Sector Forecast predicts that in the next 10 years it will fall by 6.2 per cent.

There has been no decline, it is simply a prediction! This is nothing more than the Notional Party attempting to create good news where none exists. Unless we get a government committed to rapid economic reform that ensures a decent wage for all and puts an end to rich prick tax exemptions, the prison role will climb as more people resort to crime simply to exist.
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October 8, 2011 9:25am
Scott Chris

Andy – “One of the major puzzles in climate change is why the average global temperature has not changed for at least a decade.”

Completely wrong. 2000 to 2009 is the warmest decade ever recorded. Source: NASA

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:GISS_temperature_2000-09_lrg.png
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October 8, 2011 9:27am
MyNameIsJack

wreck1080 (1,843) Says:

October 8th, 2011 at 8:17 am
why do people insist on taking drugs to bali.

Well, if you are referring to the 14 yo Australian boy, again,another example of either not reading or comprehending. He did not take drugs to Bali, he bought drugs in Bali, sold to him by Indonesians.

http://www.theage.com.au/national/bali-boy-arrested-in-plain-clothes-police-sting-witness-20111007-1ldvo.html

A spokesman for Indonesia’s foreign ministry, Michael Tene, said: ”I think everybody should know by now that [users of] illegal drugs will face severe penalties.”

So, in Indonesiaas in NZ. Persecute the user, turn a blind eye to the seller.
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October 8, 2011 9:32am
Other_Andy

@Scott Chris

“Completely wrong. 2000 to 2009 is the warmest decade ever recorded. Source: NASA”

You would do well to read before you react….

One of the major puzzles in climate change is why the average global temperature has not changed for at least a decade. When it was first noticed a few years ago, most scientists – and almost all commentators – dismissed it as a blip in the data that would soon go away. It did not. Now scientists are struggling to explain why the world has not warmed in an age of supposed global warming. The fact is that we live in the warmest decade of at least the past few hundred years, but in the past decade it has not gotten any warmer and that is difficult to explain..
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October 8, 2011 9:32am
Scott Chris

Jack – “Jesusonafuckingpogostick”

Fair enough, but my point was that cops seem to be taking a more sensible approach to policing, using arrest and time out rather than arrest and stubbornly following the judicial process. In other words they are being allowed some discretion.

After all, the law they are charged with upholding is a bit of a dog, so one can’t always criticize the poor buggers.
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October 8, 2011 9:34am
Scott Chris

Andy – “The fact is that we live in the warmest decade of at least the past few hundred years, but in the past decade it has not gotten any warmer and that is difficult to explain.”

Sorry, I should have read further.

But it still doesn’t alter my position. A decade is simply a more substantial time period to measure, the results of which will produce a more reliable temperature average according to the laws of probability.

So a decade on decade comparison is more revealing than a year on year comparison.
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October 8, 2011 9:43am
Mick Mac

Yeah that worries me too.
The Indonesian Police don’t arrest the seller just the tourist?
Is it a rip off?

As for the Australians, hope they don’t get him off and he sits for 6months or 2 years.
message is don’t break the law.
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October 8, 2011 9:51am
Other_Andy

Sharples says discrimination against Maori is systemic.
(Systemic = There is no proof it but it fits your ‘construct’. And because there is no proof, it cannot be disproven and must therfore be true)

And …even animals are victims of systemic discrimination based on colour.

Colour bias puts black pets out in cold
Black pets are hard to photograph to make more appealing. Animal shelter workers in the United States call it the “Black Dog Syndrome”: black dogs and cats are often the last to be adopted and the first to be euthanised.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/strange-but-true/news/article.cfm?c_id=500835&objectid=10757294
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October 8, 2011 9:56am
KevinH

In terms of a time scale, a decade is an insufficient period to conclude catergorically that a discernable change in the climate is or is about to, occur.An analysis of patterns over several millinea including any additional information relating to solar activity is the starting point for any accurate prediction or conclusion.
This debate regarding climate change has been largely emotional, and at times hysterical. Climate does change, often, with peaks and troughs in average mean temperatures regularly.This is part of the dynamic process that governs our planets atmosphere.
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October 8, 2011 9:58am
Monique Watson

The Nation: Is John Banks running the party. Was he asked to head back into the National fold in 2010 and when will Rodney hide make a comeback.
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October 8, 2011 10:58am
Ender

Just read Annette Kings’s tertiary education policy… Labour plan to spend at least $22m and more plus pay for 5000 people to do polytech courses and similar.

Suprise suprise — there’s absolutey no mention of where any of this money is going to come from.
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October 8, 2011 11:00am
reid

Steve Jobs Stanford Commencement Speech 2005

Brilliant.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1R-jKKp3NA

Suprise suprise — there’s absolutey no mention of where any of this money is going to come from.

Why the wich pwicks of course Ender. That’s always where it comes from.
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October 8, 2011 11:01am
Mick Mac

I still think less tax is best tax., won’t get this from our great conservative party, The national Party will we?

http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/10/is_a_progressive_tax_constitutional.html
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October 8, 2011 11:12am
jaba

I am watching God on TV .. he is called Jim Anderton, in fact, he is more powerful
ahhh, the Mayor of CHCH is just waiting
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October 8, 2011 11:16am
wat dabney

“2000 to 2009 is the warmest decade ever recorded. Source: NASA”

Er, if you actually read the text in the link you provide it says “The map illustrates just how much warmer temperatures were in the decade (2000-2009) compared to average temperatures recorded between 1951 and 1980.

Doesn’t quite have the same shock value as “warmest decade ever recorded” I suppose: “It’s a tad warmer now than it was in 1951 (though it hasn’t gotten any warmer for a decade).” Run for the hills!
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October 8, 2011 11:30am
tom hunter

Education will be the springboard for the great Labour comeback, circa 2014 if not now? I’ve seen a few commentators suggest this as the way forward, given how dead every other left-wing push into the private sector is (Knowledge Wave anyone?).

Let’s hope not, because the products are more likely to be poor, stupid bastards like the ones shown here in the great Occupy Wall Street protests that have been dribbling along for a couple of weeks now. Take a look at the messages being held up as part of the We are the 99% message. I especially loved this one (spelling mistakes included):

I am DETERMINED to break the racial mold and the American racist cycle, so I EARNED a Master’s degree in Minority Women’s Studies. I owe $150,000 for EXCELLENT education, but the corporate facists refuse to acknowledge the legitimacy of my scholarly efforts when considering me for a job.

My high speed Internet and new car loan are likewise CRUSHING me – especially when added to the two different child support payments I am FORCED to pay by our CORRUPT legal system.

I don’t know if I can keep this up. I am at the end of my rope.

I AM THE 99%

Clueless. Utterly, mind-numbingly, stupefyingly, fucking unmoored from any sort of reality. That’s what supplying endless gobs of money for education has apparently produced in the US.

By contrast – since we’re still in the wake of Steve Jobs analysis – the same article has one excerpt from his Princeton commencement speech about his brief stint at university:

“It wasn’t all romantic. I didn’t have a dorm room, so I slept on the floor in friends’ rooms, I returned coke bottles for the 5 cent deposits to buy food with, and I would walk the seven miles across town every Sunday night to get one good meal a week at the Hare Krishna temple.”
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October 8, 2011 11:31am
Scott Chris

wat dabney – ” Run for the hills!”

Have you factored in the solar minimum this decade. There is a correlative relationship between solar activity that suggests the 2000 to 2009 decade should have been much cooler.

I wouldn’t say run for the hills, just walk very very slowly.
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October 8, 2011 11:44am
Ford Anglia

Scott Chris.

Instead of walking to the hills very, very slowly, can’t I just continue with my life releasing as much CO2 as humanly possible and at the right time, drive my 1967 V8 muscle car fast and recklessly up? Strikes me as a more productive use of my time.
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October 8, 2011 12:01pm
Scott Chris

Ford Anglia – “1967 V8 muscle car fast and recklessly up…”

You’ll be welcome to, when I get my evil way and petrol is $8.00 per litre. In that way, you’d be fairly paying for your chosen extravagance.
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October 8, 2011 12:07pm
Scott Chris

Oops, my 11.44 post should have read, “There is a correlative relationship between solar activity *and global average temperature*….”
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October 8, 2011 12:12pm
reid

There is a correlative relationship between solar activity that suggests the 2000 to 2009 decade should have been much cooler.

I don’t understand why people bother debating the science in AGW. AGW is a political phenomena, AGW science doesn’t matter, it’s not important, it doesn’t affect our lives. The only thing that would affect our lives in the same way some people who look at the AGW science seem to imagine, is if NASA announces an asteroid is going to hit us and we can’t do anything about it. That’s what some people seem to imagine AGW is all about. Like the Earth has been suddenly diagnosed with terminal testicular cancer and needs urgent tweatment, right now.

It’s just that people who think like this miss the simple point that nothing they say about it or think about it, will change it one jot, so what’s the point? Who cares if the Earth is going to become a dry arid plantless wasteland unless we stop polluting it with carbon? Sure, let’s find alternatives and do it as little as possible, which we’re already doing. But what’s the point about getting hysterical about it, as some do. How is hysteria going to help the planet, one jot? If everyone does their bit? Well yes, but that means everyone needs to become as hysterical as they are, and that’s just not going to happen. So calm down, I would say to those hysterical AGW alarmists and let’s just talk about the politics.

Let’s talk for example about how the world carbon market and govt subsidies for gween technologies is greatly benefiting a certain select few and what it means for the world if you have a global taxation without representation for those are the most interesting developments and it’s those aspects which do directly your life and which you can if not influence at least understand and expose to your own mind. But no. If they started doing that it would expose the stinking fetid swamp that AGW politics and commerce really is, and that would destroy their comfort in the science, so they don’t do that, ever. Instead they wallow around in stuff they don’t really understand, thinking themselves perceptive and educated for knowing so very much about climate dynamics and the true influence of all those nasty carbon molecules within the atmosphere. All the while ignoring the big yellow thing in the sky by whose light and heat they are able to exist at all. That doesn’t matter, at all. It has nothing to do, with global warming.
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October 8, 2011 12:16pm
bereal

John Armstrong dreams on in todays Herald page A29
‘Speakers overreaction a blot on brilliant record’
Armstrong concludes his piece with, “And it is a blot which will take some time to fade.”
Memo John; Only in your mind. The rest of the country has already forgotten about it.

Lockwood Smith is the best Speaker of the House in our lifetimes, So far above the likes
of fiercely party partisan and biased Labour produced examples such as Jonathon Hunt.

“Order, the member must begin a question with a question word.” and Margaret Wilson,

“Order, order , ORDER, (last word screamed as only a true harridan can) “I rule that
the minister DID adress the question”
that if either of those two had anything about them
they would be cringing with embarassment his performance has exposed them so much
for what they were. Abject failures who, even if they did understand the role they supposed
to play were unable and unwilling to do so.

Smith gives reasons for his rulings on the spot.
Wilsons’ reason in particular was usually, “I have ruled”

Smith also has a sense of humour.
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October 8, 2011 12:25pm
reid

Well said bereal. You’d think Liarbore would be ashamed at the clear, present and utterly obvious difference between ours and theirs, but they act like they haven’t even noticed any difference, which just goes to show what sort of human beings they truly are.
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October 8, 2011 12:34pm
Scott Chris

reid “AGW is a political phenomena”

So says you.

I say AGW theory is primarily scientific, but the extrapolation of its tentative conclusions into real world consequences take it into the corrupt political arena to be abused by all sides.

Acting to avert disaster is in *NOBODY’S* short term interests, with the result that definitive action is politically impossible without social manipulation.

Most scientists understand this, that is why they are happy to overstate the probability of disaster, and ‘get with the program’.

The scientific dissenters are fools.
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October 8, 2011 12:50pm
Manolo

Astro-turfing of a different kind: http://michellemalkin.com/2011/10/07/from-obamacare-to-occupy-wall-street-a-brief-history-of-the-left-and-rent-a-non-english-speaking-protester/
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October 8, 2011 12:57pm
Mick Mac

I Like that coming from you Scott

New Living Translation (©2007)
For the choir director: A psalm of David. Only fools say in their hearts, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, and their actions are evil; not one of them does good!
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October 8, 2011 1:05pm
reid

The end of the Euro?

http://www.moneynews.com/StreetTalk/Ex-BushAdviserGermanyPrintsOldCurrencyinCaseEuroDitched/2011/10/04/id/413225#ixzz1Zqpe4umZ
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October 8, 2011 1:15pm
Other_Andy

“The scientific dissenters are fools.”

And who are the scientific dissenters…………….?

Hide the decile
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BQpciw8suk

Professor Phil Jones (University of East Anglia’s Climatic Research Unit (CRU))

“We have 25 or so years invested in the work. Why should I make the data available to you, when your aim is to try and find something wrong with it.”

“The IPCC comes in for a lot of stick. Leave it to you to delete as appropriate ! Cheers Phil PS I’m getting hassled by a couple of people to release the CRU station temperature data. Don’t any of you three tell anybody that the UK has a Freedom of Information Act !”

Kevin E. Trenberth (Head of the Climate Analysis Section at the USA National Center for Atmospheric Research) to Michael Mann (director of the Earth System Science Center at Pennsylvania State University.

“The fact is that we can’t account for the lack of warming at the moment and it is a travesty that we can’t. The CERES data published in the August BAMS 09 supplement on 2008 shows there should be even more warming: but the data are surely wrong. Our observing system is inadequate.”
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October 8, 2011 1:17pm
reid

So says you.

Scott I’m simply pointing to observable reality. The ETS is a political not a scientific phenomena and that is this country’s most ubiquitous AGW move in terms of its effect on the most people.

The science is in fact bollocks because it hasn’t been launched on the public in the way it would have been were it in fact true. Instead it has been launched on the public using clear, present and visible propaganda techniques. These days, it’s difficult to get funding if you’re a “denier” and this is another tell. So it’s a double-whammy with the media AND the research institutions and who, pray tell, can orchestrate that?

This is, as I say, observable reality. Those are facts. The media since the day it started talking about has not once given proper voice to the elementary scientific principle that is always applied to real theories such as the general theory of relativity, which is that real science is skeptical of the theory and tries to disprove it not prove it. But that hasn’t happened, has it. Not in the media and not in the research organisations.

Now how fucking peculiar is that?

Is anyone so profoundly stupid as to miss the point that just because the general population happen to believe any particular thing is in fact so, that doesn’t mean it is? That’s what a lot of people seem to base their opinion on AGW upon. I’m not saying you do Scott, I would be surprised if you did, but the majority of people who think AGW is real think that because of that very reason and you can tell that simply by asking anyone one of them why they think that and I’ve asked a lot of people that, over the years.

Now all of these facts to me add up to something very smelly indeed and not being of naive mindset and understanding quite well the dynamics of how the world and the media and the research money all work, I don’t really approve of the chosen mechanisms which are being implemented which is a global taxation without representation simply because it’s good old wedge politics on a never-before-seen scale covering the whole world regardless of govt or type of govt. When fully implemented we, you and I, pay tax to people who we haven’t elected and who don’t represent us. This is one giant step toward global govt and we can see how successful that might be for us simply by observing the prototype which is the EU. Won’t that be good? And that’s what all of this is about.

Now why does anyone think a global tax without representation is required in order to address AGW? Why? Newsflash: the world is ALREADY doing a shitload of stuff about AGW and will continue to do for the foreseeable future, with or without a global tax. That’s correct, is it not? It is happening right now, isn’t it. And we don’t have a global tax yet, do we.

So one question an enquiring mind might ask themselves, is why the fuck are politicians world-wide hell-bent on implementing this across the board? Why?

It quite annoys me, you know. It’s like watching a slowly unfolding global train wreck happening to people who don’t even see it coming. It’s sad and it will bring nothing but pain.
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October 8, 2011 1:35pm
bereal

A further reflection on John Armsrtong column in todays Herald.

Check this out, “This farce has rightly incurred the wrath of other media. That,
in turn, will worry National. No party can afford to see the media going feral on it
so close to an election.”

Surely that one statement (or threat) has blown Armstrongs credibility as a
political reporter for all time. What an incredible statement from a suposedly
‘independant, objective’ reporter to make.

Translation: ‘ You have pissed me off, don’t be suprised when I retaliate and
get my own back by writing future articles that are biased against you. And guess
what, my other mates in the media will back me up and respond in kind.’

i suggest Armstrong just speak for himself and his newspaper and not try to
gain some vicarious credibility by suggesting other members of the Fourth Estate are
as shallow, vindictive and petty as he clearly is.

Armstrong has revealed his true colours here and it’s not a pretty sight.
i assume he is speaking for the Herald as well as himself as some sub-editor
has OKed this puke.
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October 8, 2011 1:37pm
plebe

Our perfect justice system,NOT, full of old farts appointed as judges
Case A-Hoon drives at 170kmh to get away from police -year in prison
Case B -a elderly bridgecorp chairman who stole/lost $490 million dollars and stuffed up the lifes of 14500 NZrs. This thief got 9 MONTHES HOME DETENTION in his palace of a home (if the truths known the judge and the crim probably move in the same circles) wheres the justice????????
New Zealand where all are treated the same under our laws,NOT
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October 8, 2011 1:47pm
Mick Mac

reid (8,546) Says:
October 8th, 2011 at 1:15 pm

The end of the Euro?

yep and not too soon either.
Now for America!
Then the world…..
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October 8, 2011 1:54pm
Mick Mac

Very good point Plebe
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October 8, 2011 1:54pm
Other_Andy

Plebe

Case A-Hoon drives at 170kmh to get away from police -year in prison
Case B -a elderly bridgecorp chairman who stole/lost $490 million dollars and stuffed up the lifes of 14500 NZrs. This thief got 9 MONTHES HOME DETENTION in his palace of a home.
And….
Case C – A 54 year old politician driving in a high speed motorcade tearing through more than 200 km of the South Island, reaching speeds of up to 172 km/h. Five police and a chauffeur in a motorcade are charged with dangerous driving and the politician gets off scott free.
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October 8, 2011 2:05pm
Manolo

Exposing a thoroughly immoral and self-serving politician: http://www.city-journal.org/html/17_3_oh_to_be.html
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October 8, 2011 2:29pm
3-coil

bereal (1:37pm) – John Armstrong’s pompous dribbling column in today’s GrannyHerald is a stark warning of the danger of that unfortunate cocktail: senile/dementia coupled with geriatric macho bluster. Do they really pay the silly old man to write that rubbish?
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October 8, 2011 2:34pm
Mick Mac

http://www.technologyreview.com/business/38407/?p1=Mag_story1

Loved this article and wondered if any of you already do this in your workspace.

I’m building a stand up desk/workstation at present and also wondered if this could work like that too.
any ideas?
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October 8, 2011 2:38pm
Scott Chris

Reid – “The ETS is a political not a scientific phenomena”

Yes, I agree to a certain extent if one excludes economics as science. Essentially, I think the ETS is PR window dressing, but is possibly worth more to our national brand image than it actually costs in tax. As far as an effective means of reducing emissions is concerned though, I think its effect is negligible.

“Instead it has been launched on the public using clear, present and visible propaganda techniques.”

Again, I agree, but rather than attributing this to an attempt to lay the foundation for world government, I see this as a “consensus conspiracy” response in line with the magnitude of the real possible threat that we face. The fact that dealing with the threat does in fact strengthen central power, is a side effect, not a hidden motive IMO

“real science is skeptical of the theory and tries to disprove it not prove it”

Yes, but once again, these are exceptional circumstances. Imagine for a second that what they are telling us is all true. How would the authorities deal with a skeptical public, who’s self interests and freedoms are about to be infringed upon? I’d suggest it would be indistinguishable from the response we now see.

Perhaps there should be room in your skeptical mind for the possibility that AGW isn’t all bullshit.
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October 8, 2011 2:48pm
RightNow

Scott Chris – assuming AGW isn’t all bullshit, what responses have you seen to date that make any sense?
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October 8, 2011 2:53pm
plebe

Plebe

Case A-Hoon drives at 170kmh to get away from police -year in prison
Case B -a elderly bridgecorp chairman who stole/lost $490 million dollars and stuffed up the lifes of 14500 NZrs. This thief got 9 MONTHES HOME DETENTION in his palace of a home.
And….
Case C – A 54 year old politician driving in a high speed motorcade tearing through more than 200 km of the South Island, reaching speeds of up to 172 km/h. Five police and a chauffeur in a motorcade are charged with dangerous driving and the politician gets off scott free.

Clark was a power freak feminazi who was/is as tefloned as John boy Key . She should have been put inside as the mastermind of this drag race to the rugby(but once again the old farts)we appoint as judges wouldnt have gone near this liarbor leader with a barge pole,remember their(the judges) mega salaries and retirment perks could be put at risk.
Its always the plebes who are stomped on,ie always the drivers and the diplomatic squad ,not the crap that run and rule NZ.
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October 8, 2011 2:58pm
reid

…these are exceptional circumstances. Imagine for a second that what they are telling us is all true.

Yes but it’s not, Scott, it can’t be, otherwise it would not possess the dynamics I pointed to above. The fact it does have those dynamics, is the tell. Especially the bit about funding. You can’t deny that is now happening all over the world. It is a religion. The way it’s risen like the Phoenix should give one pause for reflection. From day one, it was an unstoppable, single-perspective freight-train of a message with tentacles which stretched out in all directions to organise and accomplish unified message management and suppress dissent. This is what has happened and as I said, real science does not behave like that.

What I was saying above is that AGW is a mere means to an end, it is not an end in itself. It’s only when you look beyond AGW at the world 20 years from now, that you see it for what it really is.

If you really want to argue the science then address the recent CERN findings which prove the influence by the sun on the climate is far more according to the results than is possible under any alarmist model. Isn’t that a shame. And don’t bother posting a rebuttal or an article which attempts to downplay the significance of these findings, since time will tell, in the lab, whether the CERN experiment really does in fact prove that AGW alarmists are just fucking that and always have been no matter how many learned authors wisely proclaim otherwise.

This is real science and the inconvenient truth is that it’s fucking real data which cannot be manipulated or distorted in any way, unlike the alarmist’s models.
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October 8, 2011 3:06pm
Scott Chris

RightNow – “what responses have you seen to date that make any sense?”

If by that you mean, how are governments effectively reducing emissions, then I haven’t seen any substantially effective measures emplaced. I get the feeling that the free market competitive system combined with democracy combined with the global financial crisis is the reason for this.

This next ten years is crucial, for the economy to improve, and for weather patterns to be further evaluated and compared with the predictive models. Hopefully that will be enough to come to some sort of worldwide agreement.
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October 8, 2011 3:08pm
Scott Chris

reid – “And don’t bother posting a rebuttal”

I won’t. I’ve discovered that posting links to people who won’t read them is a waste of time.

I prefer just to battle it out with the little that we do know. If I do post a link in an debate, it is usually just a graph or a table, but rarely an article. Better just to use pertinent, short extracts I’ve found.
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October 8, 2011 3:16pm
reid

Investors call for Murdoch to quit

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10757336

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/media/news/a344324/rupert-murdoch-and-james-murdoch-must-go-says-uk-pensions-group.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/news-corp-investors-call-for-james-murdochs-head-2366735.html

Had to happen.
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October 8, 2011 3:17pm
Mick Mac

yeah Scott
As you know the data is incorrect but you still need to take OPM off of them to redistribute.
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October 8, 2011 3:19pm
Mick Mac

finally Reid.
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October 8, 2011 3:20pm
Mick Mac

Anyone use a stand up desk?

Where did you get it.
What would you have had extra if you could?
Do you use it in conjunction with a sit down as well?

appreciate any ideas/thoughts or guidance from you if you use one.
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October 8, 2011 3:21pm
reid

I haven’t seen any substantially effective measures emplaced

Of course you haven’t here Scott but everyone is talking about it, aren’t they.

Don’t know if you’ve noticed all the wind farms globally, it’s quite a big industry and growing. Not to mention hydrogen technology, solar, etc.

All happening right now and growing fast.

It just takes us awhile longer.
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October 8, 2011 3:21pm
Other_Andy

reid

“Investors call for Murdoch to quit”

The BBC, the Independent and the Guardian will be so happy.
Job done.
Nobody to question their one-eyed hypocritical ‘reporting’ any more.
Only prole feed left.
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October 8, 2011 3:27pm
reid

No Andy, still, it’s not unjust that he does. The way he lied to the Committee was just outrageous.

It was a farce, that pie incident, the lawyers recanting the story the Murdoch’s told.

Rebekkah is heading for jail over this, James will be declared an unfit person to run a company and will probably be so declared in many other countries as well. Lachlan will return and take over from him.

Rupert will use Fox and the Post to push the next President who’s not going to be Obama, and then use that influence to just get the relevant authorities to quietly shut things down in the US.

His competition in the form of the NY Times won’t let that happen but that’s what he’ll try to do, IMO.
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October 8, 2011 3:44pm
Scott Chris

reid – “Don’t know if you’ve noticed all the wind farms globally”

Yes, but GHG emissions keep going up regardless. Humans are addicted to heavy consumption, especially the Yanks. Using hydrocarbons is still heavily favoured by the free market, because they are the most cost competitive means of producing energy, and until all countries sign an agreement to *fairly* disincentivize hydrocarbon use, then the alternative energy sources will remain a small proportion of production.

The 2 to 3% carbon tax we pay on fuel is nothing compared to excise tax and natural price volatility we see in petrol anyway. It is merely an exercise in tax labeling. May as well just increase excise tax seeing as farmers are exempt from the ETS. Meanwhile the Yanky consumer pays a buck twenty a litre.
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October 8, 2011 3:47pm
reid

Anyone use a stand up desk? … What would you have had extra if you could?

I would have asked for one with a built in bed so I could take a nap after lunch. I would have explained to my manager that this would improve my productivity in the long run by making me much happier, at work.

But I never thought of it at the time, and I’ve always regretted it.

The other thing I would have asked for was industrial strength high speed winding motors so the desk zipped up and down like The Flash.
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October 8, 2011 4:08pm
nasska

Scott Chris

Not all of us appreciate a “consensus conspiracy” or as it is more commonly known as “being lied to by people who wouldn’t know what the truth was if it went up them.” This, rather than inspiring us to think of the globe, makes us want to acquaint the bullshitting ones with rope & lamp posts. Further it brings out another characteristic of educated people, namely that if they have been fed bullshit once they get to recognise the flavour & turn down further offerings.

In articulating this concern of the sceptics ‘reid’ has nailed it.
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October 8, 2011 4:13pm
reid

Yes, but GHG emissions keep going up regardless.

Luckily Scott I don’t much care for while I think we should minimise using modern technology where and whenever possible, that’s simply common-sense. I don’t see GHG emissions as being the driving factor behind the climate, I see the sun playing the role that some people – let’s call them alarmists not that you’re one Scott – see GHG emissions playing.

So I’m quite sanguine about GHG emissions while at the same time recognising that hydro-carbons are primitive by comparison with what science can give us, so let’s implement such pdq, beginning asap. So we’re pulling in the same direction Scott it’s just that I’m quite relaxed about the whole thing whereas you don’t seem to be quite so much.

I actually don’t think the world could possibly be actually doing much more about it than it already is. Sure recalcitrant’s like China aren’t helping. I’m not sure however that China is going to keep going like she is for much longer before something happens since her exports and growth is reducing due to lack of buyers and a lot of expectations have been set so I imagine climate-wise China isn’t going to be paying much attention to that.

So there we are. The good thing about all those carbon atoms in the atmosphere is that it gives us really neat sunsets – it’s the AGW movement’s rainbow. I would patent them, if I were an alarmist. Then I’d be a true alarmist cause I would have made millions out of AGW, just like Al Gore and his buddies does.

I’m pretty sure there’d be an alarmist or two in the US Supreme Court. If I were an alarmist, I’d start doing some research on who they were and speak to a patent attorney…
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October 8, 2011 4:23pm
Lance

The carbon / AGW debate
I doubt anybody has changed their stand point one way or the other despite the endless words and vitriol.
Each side point to errors (real or imagined) on each sides argument.

The whole issues gets legs because science is not an absolute, never has been, never will be. If you wanted to argue the moon is made of cheese you could present endless data with detailed analysis for ever.

The sad thing is some people of low character are using this debate to denigrate just about all science and scientists even if they are not involved with climate science. This is sad and a sign of gross ignorance.

So emotional has this debate become and so full of bile it has become one belief system against another with all the courtesy of a religious war.

Next step is burning books
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October 8, 2011 4:50pm
reid

Not a bad summary of what I wouldn’t be surprised is a fairly wide-spread view amongst the patriotic Pakistani thinkers:

http://www.opinion-maker.org/2011/10/the-mouse-that-roared/#

Dangerous times.

Frankly I don’t get the US calculation re: Pakistan. Sure, the ISI is infected but in terms of the wider importance of the US-Pak relationship, why is that the only apparent publicly given reason for the US’ attitude, given the consequences of said current attitude turning turtle, which it could do?

In other words, what does the US hope to gain by its current tactics if it really did want to make a dent in the WOT (War on Terror) in one of the most critical regions in the world: Pashtun?

This is what is at stake in the current US-Pak dynamics.

After visiting Turkey my father remarked it is a country that bridges the Islam-Christian divide. Perhaps if the US hadn’t supported Israel quite so much in its showdown with Turkey over the boat incident, Turkey would be inclined to give Uncle Sam a hand with the Paks. But no, that didn’t happen, either.

Like I said, it seems to me over time the US has maneuvered itself into a negative outcome for no foreseeable gain. Given the thousands of highly paid, motivated and intelligent minds had input into these actions over the last 3-5 years, this is an appalling result at this moment in time. If you wanted to make a dent in the WOT that is. Perhaps they don’t.

Next step is burning books

Lance that already happens regularly at alarmist gatherings. They have night parades as well, I’m given to understand.
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October 8, 2011 5:03pm
wat dabney

“Have you factored in the solar minimum this decade. There is a correlative relationship between solar activity that suggests the 2000 to 2009 decade should have been much cooler.”

“Solar minimum”? There has been no solar minimum.

However, reputable scienists are predicting one. Perhaps even on a par with the Maunder Minimum.
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October 8, 2011 7:34pm
Scott Chris

wat dabney – “Solar minimum”? There has been no solar minimum.”

2 graphs for you to peruse. Solar activity going back 400 years and solar activity in more recent times. Will only take a few seconds to look:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sunspot_Numbers.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Solar-cycle-data.png
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October 8, 2011 7:42pm
Pete George

A man asked his wife what she’d like for her birthday.

“I’d love to be eight again.” she replied.

On the morning of her birthday, he arose early, made her a nice big bowl of Coco Pops, and then took her off to the local theme park. What a day!
He put her on every ride in the park: the Death Slide, the Wall of Fear, the Screaming Monster Roller Coaster, everything there was.
Five hours later she staggered out of the theme park. Her head was reeling and her stomach felt upside down.
Right away, they journeyed to a McDonald’s where her loving husband ordered her a Happy Meal with extra fries and a refreshing chocolate shake.
Then it was off to the movies: the latest Star Wars epic, a hot dog, popcorn, all the Coke she could drink, and her favorite lolly and M&M’s.

What a fabulous adventure! Finally she wobbled home with her husband and collapsed into bed exhausted.

He leaned over his precious wife with a big smile and lovingly asked, Well, Dear, what was it like being eight again?”
Her eyes slowly opened and her expression suddenly changed. “I meant my dress size!!!!!!!

The moral of the story: Even when a man is listening, he’s gonna get it wrong.
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October 8, 2011 7:52pm
nasska

A husband and wife were having dinner at a very fine restaurant
when this absolutely stunning young woman comes over to their
table, gives the husband a big open mouthed kiss, then says
she’ll see him later and walks away.

The wife glares at her husband and says, “Who the blazes was
that?”
“Oh,” replies the husband, “she’s my mistress.”
“Well, that’s the last straw,” says the wife. “I’ve had enough.
I want a divorce!”
I can understand that,” replies her husband, “but remember, if
we get a divorce it will mean no more shopping trips,
no more wintering in town, no more summers up North,
no more SUV in the garage and no more bowling club.
You’ll get half of my money in one shot, and the way you
spend it, you’ll be on welfare before Christmas.
But the decision is yours.”

Just then, a mutual friend enters the restaurant with a
gorgeous babe on his arm.
“Who’s that woman with Jim?” asks the wife.
“That’s his mistress,” says her husband.
“Ours is prettier,” she replies.
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October 8, 2011 8:00pm
Scott Chris

Pete George was driving home one evening when he suddenly realized that it’s his daughter’s birthday and he hasn’t bought her a present.

So he drove to The Warehouse and said to the assistant, “How much is that Barbie in the window?”

In a condescending manner, she said, “Which Barbie?” Pete just stared at her.

So she continued, “We have Barbie Goes to the Gym for $19.95, Barbie Goes to the Ball for $19.95, Barbie Goes Shopping for $19.95, Barbie Goes to the Beach for $19.95, Barbie Goes Nightclubbing for $19.95….”

“And Divorced Barbie for $275.00.”

Pete asked, “Why is the Divorced Barbie $275.00 when all the others are only $19.95?”

“That’s obvious.” the sales lady said. “Divorced Barbie comes with Ken’s house, Ken’s car, Ken’s boat, Ken’s furniture . . . “
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October 8, 2011 8:22pm
nasska

Five men end up stranded on a tropical island. The only female around is a gorilla on the other end of the island.
After one whole month the guys are all sitting around and Garry stands up and says, “I’m so horny, I can’t take it anymore!”
So he grabs a bag and storms off to the other side of the island with his pals right behind him. They catch the gorilla, each guy grabs an arm or leg and Garry puts the bag over the gorilla’s head.
He climbs on top of the gorilla and begins to do the nasty. The gorilla fights and struggles and finally gets an arm free and she wraps it around Garry’s back. Then she gets both feet free and wraps them around Garry’s waist. She gets her other arm free and grabs on to his hips and starts pulling him in harder and harder.
Garry yells to his buddies….”Get it off!! Get it off!!
They said, “You’re on top, we can’t get her off of you.”
Garry said…”No, I mean the bag..I want to kiss the bitch!”
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October 8, 2011 8:31pm

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