General Debate 22 December 2011

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Yvette

Nookin GD 21 Dec –
Maybe, Penny, ACC wants to give Aotea Square back to the people of Auckland … Maybe that is actually what democracy is all about. No-one, however, expects you to see that.

But someone does expect Bright to see that –

[Judge David] Wilson said the group also did not ”practice what they preached”.
“While Occupy Auckland proclaims its adherence to participatory democracy the evidence reveals that they do not practise what they preach. They did not do so when they decided to occupy Aotea Square. They did not ask those who live and work around Aotea Square… what they would think if Aotea Square… turned into a tent city.”
Wilson said although Aotea Square is used for protests, Occupy Auckland gave the council no notice of their intention to camp in the square. They began putting up their tents at 7pm on October 15, after an earlier march up Queen St.
 – http://www.stuff.co.nz/auckland/local-news/6173361/Occupy-protesters-given-48-hours-to-leave

It is often the case that what we are most critical of in other people, is what we ourselves are most guilty of.
It is just that few of us are judicially recognised as such hypocrites.

Bright – In my considered opinion, this Auckland Council vs Aotea Occupiers, is going to be another ‘Ike Finau signs case’, which the world will be watching.

Addiction does require repetition but also tends to need a boost to achieve the same psychological outcome. I will watch with mild interest to see what that fillip may this time be – but apart from me, Penny, I seriously doubt the entire fucking world will be watching.
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December 22, 2011 8:01am
Elaycee

Haha… ‘Judicially Recognised Hypocrite’.

How true. 😀
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December 22, 2011 8:17am
Brian Smaller

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/6177403/Adoption-order-for-baby-at-risk-of-honour-killing.

Another great example of multi-culturalism at work. Seventh century savages have no place in modern Western countries. This has nothing to do with racism either – I wouldn’t want to live with seventh century European savages either.
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December 22, 2011 8:17am
Keeping Stock

@ Nookin; perhaps Penny’s concept of the “entire world” is different to yours and mine. I suspect that Penny Bright’s world begins and ends with Penny Bright, and her obsession with Conspiracy 101.
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December 22, 2011 8:18am
Brian Smaller

@KS – I was thinking same thing.
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December 22, 2011 8:24am
Pete George

A letter to the editor highlights problems with the poverty syndrome.

Poor can parent

Hone Harawira and Metirea Turei will achieve nothing by claiming that these things are caused by a poverty of income. The level of income is not the cause. We can all see for ourselves that the children of the vast majority of low-income families are not beaten or neglected.

It should be obvious that being poor doesn’t mean you are a bad parent. For some, however, it is politically useful to equate low income to child abuse.

Politicians and lobbyists choose to measure ‘Relative Poverty’ using the OECD method and other ones use the Gini index. These methods are so flawed that they take no account of living costs nor any measure of standard of living.

Is the forced levelling of incomes really aimed at addressing ‘poverty’, or is it an excuse for promoting a socialist ideology?

I’m sure part at least is well intentioned, but the real problems of abuse and poor nutrition are not financial poverty. We need to find ways of addressing more, like poverty of education and poverty of morals.

Poor parents and poverty palaver.
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December 22, 2011 8:26am
Nookin

@Keeping Stock

Elaycee summed up the situation on GD yesterday (second last post). Penny’s world starts and stops with her own blinkered perception with no room for the views of others. Her perception is crammed into a small box and is smothered by her ego and craving for attention.
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December 22, 2011 8:27am
Manolo

We need to find ways of addressing more, like poverty of education and poverty of morals.

Such as sterilising the offenders? 😀
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December 22, 2011 8:28am
Other_Andy

“Is the forced levelling of incomes really aimed at addressing ‘poverty’, or is it an excuse for promoting a socialist ideology?”

That was of course a rhetorical question Pete.
You know the answer.
As there is no real poverty in New Zealand it must be number two.
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December 22, 2011 8:30am
bulbul

Does any one know what the next act is in the Epsom Tea Party tapes saga is going to be ?

A: The bored and sanctimonious press leaking information to get a reaction in the slow and silly season ?

B: “Just because I can do so” Peters doing so under parliamentary privilege in the new year ?

C: “I am innocent and I have been wronged” Ambrose’s court case ?

D: Nothing happens–because it was what it was — a game ?
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December 22, 2011 8:31am
nasska

Elaycee

TVNZ’s website indicates that the great unwashed intend to ‘march’ on the Auckland District Court this afternoon & follow this with a visit to the Auckland Town Hall. Although I doubt that the numbers will be great nor the march be more than a slow shuffle we can be certain that their mates in the MSM will report it as a mass movement.

Would you be in a position to estimate the numbers & describe the antics for the gentle readers of this blog?
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December 22, 2011 8:43am
labrator

Judicially Recognised Hypocrite

Excellent.
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December 22, 2011 8:51am
Keeping Stock

One cannot help but be impressed by the blatant hypocrisy displayed by the Occupy Auckland faithful. Whilst they protest against corporate greed, they are more than happy to use greedy corporate news media organisations to disseminate the pleas for the faithful to come along and raise a rabble.

http://keepingstock.blogspot.com/2011/12/occupys-hypocrisy.html

I note that they are also planning to occupty the Auckland Town Hall this afternoon, after they have finished at the Court. I hope that Auckland’s civic authorities take a “forewarned is forearmed” stance.
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December 22, 2011 8:55am
Pete George

Such as sterilising the offenders?

Even if that was morally tenable it’s actually too late.

We need better pre-parenting and contraception education, especially in the most at risk demographics.
And we need better identification of the most at risk of abusing – before they breed if possible.

Very difficult, but need to target the causes more.
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December 22, 2011 8:57am
alex Masterley

I suppose that Penny will twist the judges decision and claim it as another win!
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December 22, 2011 8:59am
Falafulu Fisi

Merry Xmas every one.

Joy to the World – Mormon Tabernacle Choir

Last night, I went to Grand Central bar (along Ponsonby Rd) and ended up singing Christmas Carols with a few drinkers (4 others) in that bar. It was me who started it. I took my Christmas carol short hymn book with me, since I knew that there would be people (strangers) keen to sing Carols. Those drinkers were not Christians or anything like that, but because almost every one in this country knows , Joy to the world, Oh Holynight, Silent Night, O Come O ye faithful, Jingle Bell, etc,… we all sang beautifully like a mini-choir, even the bar owner had to turn the music off, so the whole bar listened to a bunch of Christmas Carol singers singing carols. Beautiful.
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December 22, 2011 9:03am
Brian Smaller

@Falafulu Fisi – I am an atheist but I absolutely love going to my kid’s Chapel services at school and listening to and taking part in the singing (although I am not a good singer as those in teh pews around me would attest). Good carols and hymns are great to sing along to.
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December 22, 2011 9:06am
Manolo

I suppose that Penny will twist the judges decision and claim it as another win!

Yes. In the same way Napoleon triumphed at Waterloo, and Hitler at Stalingrad. Way to go, water woman.
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December 22, 2011 9:08am
Oskar

And meanwhile there is a split in the Occupy Wellington group – see

http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/6176151/Protesters-point-finger-after-split

“Occupy Wellington protesters split from the main camp amid claims about women’s safety, threats of “violence against police” and concerns that the movement had been hijacked by rogue elements.
Former demonstrators who left the Civic Square camp say the remaining protesters are mostly homeless “streeties”, illegal overstayers and “reformed crims” looking for free food and somewhere to sleep.”

I wonder how many in Auckland fall into the category of “homeless “streeties”, illegal overstayers and “reformed crims” looking for free food and somewhere to sleep.” Maybe Penny sees herself as a leader of this group? No one else listens to her.
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December 22, 2011 9:15am
MT_Tinman

GD 21/12
Manolo (5,700) Says:
December 22nd, 2011 at 7:46 am
We continue to lose bright people: http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/6174283/New-high-for-Kiwis-leaving-for-Australia

I’ve met and talked to many leaving NZ.

Most are going because Oz has a mining industry and believe me, Muldoon was correct.
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December 22, 2011 9:18am
East Wellington Superhero

An interesting time of the year – people, “not Christians or anything like that” (God forbid), singing carols in a Ponsonby pub; Russell Norman telling the Christmas story – in Parliament of all places! (though he carefully proclaimed his atheist credentials); Alfred Ngaro’s honouring of God in his maiden speech; an article in the Herald yesterday noting that apparently 1/3 of the planet’s population is Christian; and the fact that we have a Deputy PM and Attorney-General – and probably others – in the Cabinet that are believing Christians, all give some pause for thought.

Not bad for a ‘sky pixie’.

I’m not trying to be triumphalist. And nor do these thing prove that God exists. However, the view, so authoritatively stated by some, that ‘God is dead’, is demonstrably false.
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December 22, 2011 9:20am
East Wellington Superhero

And I don’t understand the cognitive dissonance of atheists taking their kids to chapel to enjoy Christmas carols. It doesn’t make sense.
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December 22, 2011 9:23am
cabbage

Probably been covered off already, but as i’m neck deep in a project that won’t fucking die, i havent had the chance to spend any time here for a while. Feel the need to vent.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/6173214/Boys-wish-granted-mother-sent-to-jail

I heard this sack of shit on radio live trying her hardest to appear to be the victim. According to her, this is all Paula Bennet and John key’s fault.

a couple of points to be noted:

1. Her Daughter was initially removed from her care and placed in independant CYF care. One can only presume that is because this mongrel bitch was not offering a safe and nurturing environment for her children.

2. The woman then petitioned CYF and had her daughter placed in the care of an extended whanau member, where her daughter was sexually abused.

3. When she regained care of her daughter, she found that she could not handle her daughters obvious disturbance at her previous treatment, and thus started to systematically torture her.

4. Despite her protestations and crys of “its not my fault!” “I asked for help!”, not once did she approach anyone and say: “look, i’m at my wits end. I’m going to start beating and torturing my kid if you don’t do anything. For the love of god, help HER” Instead, all her cries were ME, ME and ME.

With any luck, this bitch will start the decomposition process in Gaol. A process which is unlikely to ever end where she is headed.
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December 22, 2011 9:24am
Falafulu Fisi

Yeah Brian, Christmas celebration is unique to Western culture, regardless if people are atheist (I am) or not. Its the time of the year, that makes most people wants to be with their families (even if you’re living apart in some overseas countries).
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December 22, 2011 9:28am
Elaycee

@nasska: I have a meeting in the CBD at 2pm in an office that overlooks Body Odour Central. If they’re on the move I’ll certainly do a tally up and let you know. I’ll also pack a dust mask / de-odouriser in case I pass them on the street…. 🙂
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December 22, 2011 9:32am
Scott Chris

Re the Occupy Movements:

You’re talking about them.

They win.
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December 22, 2011 9:34am
Chuck Bird

I heard sicking Labour types ringing talkback last night blame Paula Bennett for this abuse.

Bennett: Mother failed her child

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10774563
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December 22, 2011 9:35am
Other_Andy

@Brian Smaller

“Another great example of multi-culturalism at work.”
So what do you want to do Brian?

Remember what Pete George said a few days ago:

For more than 150 years people have emigrated to New Zealand to get away from things they didn’t like. Many wanted to get away from the oppressive class system in England, they didn’t come here and try and set up a class system. Many wanted to get away from the potato famine, they didn’t try and establish potato famines here. The modern US was significantly settled by people wanting to get away from oppressive and discriminatory religious conditions in Europe. I’d rather see New Zealand as tolerant of different peoples – and I wouldn’t like to be dictated to by varying degrees by Kyle-Chapmanism.

He sees people like you as intolerant of different peoples and followers of Kyle Chapman. The problem with this is of course (As Karl Popper once wrote) that tolerance is a paradox and that unlimited tolerance leads to the disappearance of tolerance.

Pete thinks this group of people (Muslims) will act the same way as the Irish, the Scottish and the Dalmatians. He doesn’t understand that this group of people will NOT get away from the ‘religious conditions’ as these ‘religious conditions’ are what defines them.
Pete can of course check on the Internet and he will find, in countless examples from all over the world, that Muslims (More than any other group) will NOT change, will NOT integrate fully and will NOT leave the behind those ‘religious conditions’ such as honour killings, halal slaughter, their views on homosexuality, women, marriage and other religions. To do so would mean they disobey Islamic law and Islamic law is an integral part of ‘being Muslim’.
Although the facts (As seen in daily news items) don’t support his view, Pete lives in an alternate reality. Pete desperately wants the see all the facts that don’t fit his ideas as ‘incidental’ and ‘uncommon’ as it doesn’t fit his world view.
Brian also has the idea that all this somehow will never happen in New Zealand and that New Zealand is somehow immune to all this.
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December 22, 2011 9:36am
Clint Heine

East Wellington Superhero – no, wrong. God isn’t dead cause he never existed in the first place. There is as much legitimacy in religion as there is with my cream crackers I had for an afternoon snack. Mind you, these religious folk are all a little crackers.
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December 22, 2011 9:36am
Manolo

Pete lives in an alternate reality…

A common trait to the hundreds of thousands of UnitedFuture followers. 🙂
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December 22, 2011 9:39am
Other_Andy

@Manolo

Pete lives in an alternate reality…
A common trait to the hundreds of thousands of UnitedFuture followers.

I do agree with Pete on a lot of things and I should have said “in this case Pete lives in an alternate reality”.
And…
“hundreds of thousands of UnitedFuture followers.”
Hundreds of thousands?
Really?
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December 22, 2011 9:46am
Pete George

Although the facts (As seen in daily news items) don’t support his view, Pete lives in an alternate reality.

I think the facts relating to new Zealand (or lack of them in the daily news) do support my views.

This country has had various ethnic and political scares since post-Maori immigration began, including Chinese, Irish, German and Japanese, Reds, Poms, Islanders, Asians and now Muslims.

Where are your facts that this has led to an import of terrible things?
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December 22, 2011 9:48am
immigant

I think

Aside from for filling a spiritual; need for many, God and religion is a vehicle for culture. Just look at how much Buddhism did for ancient China and Japan, and Christianity for ancient Europe, or Christianity for ancient Pagan Russia. Or Islam for the middleast.

Consequently, you may not need to believe in God or to totally subscribe to the teaching of a particular faith in order to be part of the culture. Christian culture for example is what NZ and Europe is built on, it stretches into things like our law, our sense of right and wrong, or sense of what is decent and what is not.

So as a vehicle for culture religion must have a special place in society, but not as special as Islam, which is a Tank for culture as opposed to just a vehicle.
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December 22, 2011 9:49am
Manolo

Apologies. I forgot to add the pair of missing tags “[sarcasm]” and “[/sarcasm]”.
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December 22, 2011 9:49am
Scott Chris

Chuck Bird says:- “Bennett: Mother failed her child”

Yup. So did CYFS. When it was obvious the woman was an unfit mother, the child was released back into her custody.

A failure first by the mother, then by the government agency, who was headed by Bennett. Bennett is simply playing the “personal responsibility” political card to appeal to the likes of some kbloggers.

According to the woman’s lawyer Lorraine Smith:

➡ “the girl was sexually abused while in the care of Child Youth and Family and developed behavioral issues before being released back into the care of her mother.”
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December 22, 2011 9:54am
immigant

Scott Chris

Argument is flawed. Why was the girl in CYFs care in the 1st place? I’ll tell you why because her mothe rwas fucked up. Is that Bennett’s fault?
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December 22, 2011 10:01am
Viking2

Another good day for Kiwi’s.
http://gewius.com/?p=183
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December 22, 2011 10:02am
Chuck Bird

Scott, please reread my post. Are you dishonest or just plain stupid?
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December 22, 2011 10:02am
gump

East Wellington Superhero (615) Says:

And I don’t understand the cognitive dissonance of atheists taking their kids to chapel to enjoy Christmas carols. It doesn’t make sense.

—————————-

Do you honestly believe that Atheists shouldn’t enjoy art simply because it has a religious theme?
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December 22, 2011 10:08am
voice of reason

No doubt the Woman was at fault. But Scott Chris is correct the Girl was also failed by CYF – That can not be glossed over, how many times have we heard the endless crap about “Systems” being improved, Urgent enquiries being ordered and “White papers” being written and nothing changes.
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December 22, 2011 10:08am
Nookin

@Scott Chris

The report shows systemic, and possibly individual shortcomings. That is not the point. The point is that the mother and the father are people – they are members of a supposedly civilised society. At some point there is a level of depravity that transcends helplessness, lack of support and shortcoming of others and enters a realm of evil that no civilised society can countenance and no “real person” can palm off onto others. This is such a case. A blow in anger and despair — maybe. But pulling fingernails out and then aggravating that injury? Kicking between the legs? Beating with broom sticks? Come on! These are deliberate, calculated actions designed to cause pain and suffering. They are not the actions of a person crying out for help.
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December 22, 2011 10:09am
Other_Andy

@Pete

“I think the facts relating to new Zealand (or lack of them in the daily news) do support my views.”

As I said previously Pete, it is a numbers game.
In New Zealand we are always behind….
As for the facts…….
Look what is happening in Australia at the moment. Give it a few (5-10) more years and we will have the same problems as they are having in Australia.
European countries are even further down the track.
Again, you seem to have the idea that all this somehow will never happen in New Zealand and that New Zealand is somehow immune to all this.
Why is that?
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December 22, 2011 10:10am
Falafulu Fisi

Scott Chris, so CYF and social workers are to be blamed?
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December 22, 2011 10:10am
pollywog

Is that Bennett’s fault?

all it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

In this case our useless social development minister did nothing.

Just like Pike river and the useless Brownlee doing nothing to monitor safety.

…they need to own that shit !!!

also, the useless English needs to own the fact that the economy is tanking under his watch and Kiwis are fleeing to Australia in record numbers which the useless Key needs to own.

the buck stops at their door !!!

though to be fair, they aren’t entirely useless, more like useful idiots for the VRWC.
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December 22, 2011 10:11am
Brian Smaller

Other Andy

Brian also has the idea that all this somehow will never happen in New Zealand and that New Zealand is somehow immune to all this.

I think you mean Pete George, Other_andy, as I dont think that the things you mentioned wont happen here. I think they WILL happen here.
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December 22, 2011 10:13am
East Wellington Superhero

@ immigant

“Consequently, you may not need to believe in God or to totally subscribe to the teaching of a particular faith in order to be part of the culture”

I agree with you to an extent. My point was that atheists tend to be quite evangelical in their views – want to tell everyone that they are, and why. The atheists find views outside of empiricism and reason so very faultly – with some considering it brain-washing and not fair to expose children to it…

But they like taking them to Christmas Carols for warm fussies.

I don’t get it.
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December 22, 2011 10:13am
KiwiGreg

@ EWS I appreciate a lot of iconographic art, I even understand the underlying mythology (and in rare cases actual historical fact) underpining it. I like negro spirituals and gregorian plainchant too. I dont need to believe in god or fairies or anything else to appreciate it. We celebrate Christmas, as I’m sure most kiwis do as a social, rather than religious celebration.
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December 22, 2011 10:14am
La Grand Fromage

“We’re failing our children” says former childrens commissioner, Ian Hassal.

I will tell you something for free you hand wringing cunt, myself and the large majority of parents in this country are not failing our children. We bust our nuts to bring our kids up happy, healthy, safe and loved.

The people who are failing our kids are the fucking Maoris. It is their filthy problem and untill they can prove that, as a people they can raise children without torturing them, every Maori home containing children should have Police surveilance cameras placed in them.

They can go when they start acting like humans.
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December 22, 2011 10:15am
RightNow

So should we sterilise the kids now to prevent the cycle repeating?
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December 22, 2011 10:15am
East Wellington Superhero

@ gump

“Do you honestly believe that Atheists shouldn’t enjoy art simply because it has a religious theme?”

Well, no, of course they may enjoy it, but this confuses me. Unlike other art, the Christian message is not a subjective one. We can all go down to Te Papa and look at a Goldie painting but it doesn’t give an objective meaning. Or we could go to an Et al. collection (and laugh our arses off) which also gives no objective meaning. Christianity is objective, so for the atheist to take pleasure from it (considering their views) and to expose their kids to what they apparently reject as crock of shit, is quite odd to me.
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December 22, 2011 10:18am
Other_Andy

@Brian Smaller

I think you mean Pete George, Other_andy, as I dont think that the things you mentioned wont happen here. I think they WILL happen here.

Sorry, I meant Pete.
As for WILL happen here…
http://www.3news.co.nz/Sharma-could-be-NZs-first-honour-killing-victim/tabid/423/articleID/195635/Default.aspx
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December 22, 2011 10:19am
pollywog

every Maori home containing children should have Police surveilance cameras placed in them.

oooh can we have some in the hot rich white girls and milfs home toilets and bedrooms too ?

umm…and in the interests of equality lets not forget the asians. Don’t want them to feel left out.

actually better include the mens room as well for all our gay friends.
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December 22, 2011 10:19am
tristanb

SC: Bennett is simply playing the “personal responsibility” political card to appeal to the likes of some kbloggers.

Yes, “personal responsibilty”. What a horrible right-wing trait. Only those fascist kiwibloggers (with 3,089 comments, what exactly are you Scott?) would support something as vile as “personal responsibility”.
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December 22, 2011 10:21am
La Grand Fromage

If you search the internet a bit harder pollywog you will find they already exist.
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December 22, 2011 10:22am
Yvette

Scott Chris – Re the Occupy Movements: You’re talking about them. They win.

Nobody knows why the Occupy the Octagon was there, even fewer know why they up and left. They were a waste of space and time – communicated nothing but confusion. I don’t see a win in that.
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December 22, 2011 10:22am
pollywog

If you search the internet a bit harder pollywog you will find they already exist.

yeah nah thanks.

public surveillance cameras in peoples houses isn’t really my thing.

I do agree that Pasifikans inclusive of Maori need to own up and front foot their problems. If it’s cultural or colonial or personal or whatever, pretending it’s isolated examples isn’t being intellectually honest.

For Maori, i think there is a need for journalists to name and shame the respective hapu/iwi of the perpetrators and put it back on them to deal with as a hapu/iwi rather than Maori as a whole.

I mean, it’s not fair that Richard Kahui has to share the same surname as Chris eh ?
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December 22, 2011 10:30am
Pete George

Yvette – there was a mass of ideals, confusion and lack of specific purpose at Occupy Octagon, plus several barrow pushers. There was quite a bit of support to varying degrees, and there was also a lot of annoyance generated.

But it’s not a win/lose game. It certainly raised attention.

I think some of what Occupy Dunedin started will continue in some way – and I’ll be looking for ways to combine with some of their intentions. There were quite a few poiitcally aware people involved, they are part of the city, so I see no reason why they shouldn’t be included in establishing a stronger political voice here.
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December 22, 2011 10:34am
immigant

Stop blaming the ambulance at the bottom of the hill for the fuckup trainwreck that that girl’s mother is. “personal responsibility” is exactly right, why is it the government that has to look after YOUR children. I’m going to blame the woman’s Whanau for not taking the responsibility with their mokopuna. Why were the principles of kaupapa not adhered too in their community. All this resulted in a huge loss of Mana. There, i made my comments polliticaly correct and Pasifikan.
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December 22, 2011 10:35am
pollywog

Maori, through hapu and iwi need to get to grips with collective responsibility before they can even look at personal and that needs to come from the top down.

Either through ariki, rangatira or Maori MP’s cos the silence from on high is deafening.
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December 22, 2011 10:35am
Scott Chris

I repeat. The woman was primarily responsible for the abuse of the child.

When CYFS became involved, the child came under their protection and the government, at the behest of society became responsible for the welfare of the child as her legal guardian.

Take a million people at random. There are going to be a wide distribution of behaviours, but in the end, your going to have your best bunch and your worst bunch. How you deal with that ‘worst bunch’ is Paula Bennett’s responsibility.

What Bennett is conveniently forgetting is that personal responsibility includes *everyone* in a position of responsibility.

Including her.
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December 22, 2011 10:36am
immigant

pollywog

So you admit that child abuse is a problem for the Pasifikan cvommunity and not for any othe rcommunity NZ?
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December 22, 2011 10:38am
Scott Chris

tristanb

Where did I say that personal responsibility was a bad thing? And I did say ‘some kbloggers’

So what’s your point?
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December 22, 2011 10:39am
Fletch

…no, wrong. God isn’t dead cause he never existed in the first place.There is as much legitimacy in religion as there is with my cream crackers I had for an afternoon snack

And yet, you’re in the minority. More people believe in a God than not.

According to the CIA site, the population of the World is something like 6.928 billion people. Of those, around 88.5%, or 6.13 billion, are religious of some sort. Only 2% are Atheist (according to 2009 figures), and 9.42% are non-religious.

Christian 33.35% (of which Roman Catholic 16.83%, Protestant 6.08%, Orthodox 4.03%, Anglican 1.26%), Muslim 22.43%, Hindu 13.78%, Buddhist 7.13%, Sikh 0.36%, Jewish 0.21%, Baha’i 0.11%, other religions 11.17%, non-religious 9.42%, atheists 2.04% (2009 est.)

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/xx.html

(Click on ‘People’)
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December 22, 2011 10:40am
nasska

pollywog

Regrettably your proposal to ‘name & shame’ doesn’t seem to be an acceptable option. According to the experts name suppression is vital to allow the victims anonymous space to heal.

Personally I would be more than interested to hear the opinions of former victims of family violence on what they consider would work best.
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December 22, 2011 10:40am
pollywog

that that girl’s mother is. “personal responsibility” is exactly right,

to a degree, but then that girls mothers mother failed the girls mother and so on backwards. If there is a failure in parenting, it’s transgenerational and ultimately according to the structure and heirarchy of Maori culture needs to be shared/owned by the hapu and iwi.

If no one is willing to adress any of that don’t expect a change anytime soon. The point being shame and mana enctged as peer pressure play a big part in resolving Maori issues and should be be brought into play at an iwi and hapu level becaues it’s fairly obvious it doen’t work at the personal level or as on Maori as a whole people.
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December 22, 2011 10:41am
Scott Chris

Chuck Bird says:- “please reread my post. Are you dishonest or just plain stupid?”

I did read your post. What the fuck are you talking about?
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December 22, 2011 10:45am
pollywog

So you admit that child abuse is a problem for the Pasifikan cvommunity and not for any othe rcommunity NZ?

Not at all, as we are all citizens of NZ, if child abuse happens in any of our cultures and communities it becomes our nations problem but in saying the buck needs to stop with Pasifikan leaders and the culture so must it stop at Bennetts door.

If it’s OK for her to absolve herself of responsibility it’s alright for Maori to do the same and if it’s all about personal responsibility then why do we need her or indeed any rules/laws and governance at all ?

Just let the law of the jungle and the invisible hand dictate society…good luck with that.
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December 22, 2011 10:47am
Manolo

Maori, through hapu and iwi need to get to grips with collective responsibility before they can even look at personal and that needs to come from the top down.

You’re dreaming: they will never do that.
It’s much easier to continue passing the blame and spouting platitudes, as Sharples and Turia do, while the rapacious Maori elites cream gullible, guilt-ridden governments with one Treaty of Waitangi claim after another.
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December 22, 2011 10:51am
pollywog

Regrettably your proposal to ‘name & shame’ doesn’t seem to be an acceptable option. According to the experts name suppression is vital to allow the victims anonymous space to heal.

I doubt there would be any supression law governing the naming the hapu and iwi of the perpetrators or then interviewing the tribal leaders for a view on what level of responsibility they take to ensure hapu/iwi members abide by either cultural or national conventions.

Do unto Ariki/Rangatira as they do unto Bennett and Key.
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December 22, 2011 10:52am
wat dabney

EWS,

And have you noticed how many atheists also tell their children about Santa Claus?

I’m not trying to be triumphalist. And nor do these thing prove that Santa exists. However, the view, so authoritatively stated by some, that ‘Santa is dead’, is demonstrably false.
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December 22, 2011 10:52am
Brian Smaller

@East Wellington Superhero.

Christianity is objective, so for the atheist to take pleasure from it (considering their views) and to expose their kids to what they apparently reject as crock of shit, is quite odd to me.

I am an atheist but I love the architecture of churches and happen to like singing Jerusalem and The Battle Hymn of the Republic. Why is that so hard to understand? My kids both attend diocesan schools. I am not worried that they hear Christian messages – most of them that they are exposed to are not actually that bad in and of themselves. The basic Christian message of be nice to everyone is in itself not a bad way to live one’s life. My kids know my views on religions and the existence of deities – they are free to follow whatever belief system suits them.
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December 22, 2011 10:56am
dime

the mother of that kid needs a bullet.

i propose at the all blacks june test match against ireland.

at half time. we drag this bitch out by her hair to the middle of the field. we have it set up like a scene from dexter. the announcer reads out the winning ticket number. that lucky person comes down and is offered a shotgun. that lucky person then executes this piece of filth.

john key steps in and says – if you fucking monkeys want to keep doing bad shit to your kids, we will kill you.

they fold up the plastic and we get back to the game 🙂
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December 22, 2011 10:57am
pollywog

It’s much easier to continue passing the blame and spouting platitudes, as Sharples and Turia do, while the rapacious Maori elites cream gullible, guilt-ridden governments with one Treaty of Waitangi claim after another.

Then stick a mike in Sharples and Turias face for some comment on collective iwi responsibility or for its own Maori party members behaviour. Put the ball in Harawira’s court if they’re Nga puhi etc etc…

Maori elites acting as their colonial overlords do or successive govt’s of whatever ideology andpinting the finger isn’t helping either. Why would you expect maori elite to act more nobly than their colonial counterparts ? Do you hold them to a higher standard ?

The point is, yeah there’s a problem, but if you’re not trying to solve it or are doing nothing…You’re part of the problem.
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December 22, 2011 10:58am
eszett

More people believe in a God than not.

Hmm, many different gods, mutually exclusive ones.
And given that more people don’t believe in any specific god than people do, what does that tell you.
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December 22, 2011 11:00am
James Stephenson

And have you noticed how many atheists also tell their children about Santa Claus?

Coincidentally, I’ve just blogged about that very dilemma, over at Keeping Stock – and concluded that I go along with it because I’m chicken.
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December 22, 2011 11:01am
Scott Chris

Nookin says:- “The report shows systemic, and possibly individual shortcomings. That is not the point.”

I disagree. That is the point. There are always going to be sadistic psychopaths in a large population sample. The problem here is that people are reacting emotionally to the detail.

>>”The point is that the mother and the father are people – they are members of a supposedly civilised society.”

And quite plainly unfit members of society, from whom the rest of society, including the abused child need to be protected. The government is charged with that responsibility by popular mandate, and if there are systemic failures within the government agency, then the people responsible for those systemic failures are also culpable, albeit to a much lesser degree.

>>”But pulling fingernails out and then aggravating that injury? Kicking between the legs? Beating with broom sticks? Come on! These are deliberate, calculated actions designed to cause pain and suffering. They are not the actions of a person crying out for help.”

No, they are the actions of a psychopath. Psychopaths need to be identified as early as possible, and monitored very closely.
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December 22, 2011 11:01am
pollywog

the mother of that kid needs a bullet.

Then grow a pair and do what you think needs to be done.

Don’t put it on the mob with the sanction of politicians to do it.

Man up and put your bullet where your mouth is !!!
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December 22, 2011 11:02am
ciaron

Before I head home, I’d just like to wish everyone a merry Christmas and a happy new year. take care and be safe guys (and girls) 🙂
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December 22, 2011 11:08am
Right of way is Way of Right

Still shaking my head in disbelief at those who would seek to lay the blame of this horrific child abuse case at the feet of Paula Bennett and John Key. Had this woman been a fit parent in the first place, the whole situation would never have occured. This girl was taken in to CYFS care for a reason. The abuse of the girl occured when she was placed in the care of a relative by CYFS at the request of the mother.

Now the lawyer wants us to blame government agencies for the dysfunction of the family.

The best thing that could happen to this girl is that she is removed from her entire extended family. I know social workers advocate leaving the child within the family unit, but that is too big a collection of broken goods to be recovered.
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December 22, 2011 11:08am
wreck1080

Still amazed at the huge salary increase for the Christchurch CEO………..

How could they have done this ?

Was he going to leave? Is he such a clever person few others can do this job?

This is a huge salary for providing administration services in a small city.
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December 22, 2011 11:10am
Chuck Bird

I heard sicking Labour types ringing talkback last night blame Paula Bennett for this abuse.

Bennett: Mother failed her child

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10774563

Scott, if checked the link you would see what you quoted me as saying was the Herald headline. It is quite inconsistent with what I said in the first sentence.

I think if most people read the letter to Key this woman wrote and Bennett’s response it is quite unreasonable to expect her to look into every cae of abuse.
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December 22, 2011 11:10am
nasska

polywog

Let’s kick this idea a bit further down the road. I don’t totally disagree with the concept of iwi/hapu justice…I just can’t get my head around the practicalities.

Four or five decades ago Maori did live in tribal communities but urbanisation in the late fifties through to the seventies removed the influence of the elders. South Auckland Maori (for instance) would hail from multiple tribes never mind families. In a previous discussion you opined that all Maori would know their hapu/iwi but there would be some from disfunctional families who probably don’t know even who their fathers are & my guess is that this group would be over represented in child abuse statistics.

Therefore your concept re establishing the influence of the elders is likely to miss the target.
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December 22, 2011 11:11am
immigant

pollywog

So now we are all one people and NZers? You sure about that ? Because not 3 days ago you were going on how Pasifikans are all special and better than everyone else and a week ago you were argueing how they should have special schools. Nice how you are all friendly and pro-unity when it suits you. Pathetic, inconsistent, no integrity.
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December 22, 2011 11:15am
wat dabney

Woman hideously tortures young daughter. Left blames government.

You can’t make this stuff up.
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December 22, 2011 11:18am
pollywog

The abuse of the girl occured when she was placed in the care of a relative by CYFS at the request of the mother.

The best thing that could happen to this girl is that she is removed from her entire extended family.

all the more reason to name and shame the hapu and iwi.

I’d like to hear Turia’s views on what would have been different under Whanau Ora or Dunnes views from a family commission perspective.

Polticians need to account for their policies and be accountable for their failures as well as successes.

…it’s not about blame per se, it’s about collective responsibility. Bennett pushing that personal line sets a disgusting and dangerous precedent for govt ministers departments to shirk their own personal responsibility for the portfolios they manage.

Can we expect more of the same as in safety at Pike river being shirked by Brownlee, the economy under English etc etc ?
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December 22, 2011 11:18am
Fletch

eszett, it still means that most people on the planet are aware of the Divine, or a Higher Power, whatever they perceive it to be. They are aware of something greater that is outside of themselves.

And the religious generally aren’t stupid.

Some of the greatest minds of our time – scientists, mathematicians, inventors, musicians – have been religious. Einstein believed in a God, although not a ‘personal’ God; he famously said, “God does not play dice [with the Universe]”.
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December 22, 2011 11:22am
dime

immigant – why are you talking to it? theres no point.
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December 22, 2011 11:22am
immigant

So explain to me how it is Bennett’s fault that the girl’s mother adn then family memeber abused her? It’s not like it was government officials raping and beating her. It was the girl’s own family right? On the same logic I go and cut pollywog’s throat for example and then use the stump where the head used to be for a toilet, and the Minister of Justice and police comissioner get blamed. That would be a laugh.
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December 22, 2011 11:24am
Pete George

wat dabney – and Easter Bunny, and the tooth fairy.

How many religious people eventually admit to their kids that Santa, Easter Bunny and the tooth fairy were not real? Usually after the kids have figured it out for themselves or been toold by their peers.

I don’t think there’s much harm done by playing along with Santa, Easter Bunny and the tooth fairy for a few years.
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December 22, 2011 11:25am
immigant

dime

I knwo i’m just bored. trying to make him flip out and have a tanty.
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December 22, 2011 11:25am
James Stephenson

eszett, it still means that most people on the planet are aware of the Divine, or a Higher Power, whatever they perceive it to be. They are aware of something greater that is outside of themselves.

It’s an emotional security blanket, they want there to be something outside of themselves.
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December 22, 2011 11:26am
dime

immigant -it wont happen. its playing the “deep thinking pot head” type character. people like that see things that we dont. they know the big picture etc they are usually poor too.. even though they know everything and are smarter than everyone else.

do we know if the lawyer had a straight face when he suggested it wasnt the mothers fault?

they sound like sexual sadists to me. its some messed up shit.
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December 22, 2011 11:27am
Scott Chris

immigant says:- “I knwo i’m just bored. trying to make him flip out and have a tanty.”

So you admit you are a troll. Figures. You are also a blamer rather than a fixer.
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December 22, 2011 11:29am
pollywog

3 days ago you were going on how Pasifikans are all special and better than everyone else

So now we are all one people and NZers?

What i said was Pasifikans, as a people’s, genepool is inherently superior.

Can i make case for that, yeah sure, but thats beside the point. I’m not going to argue it with you here or now. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_pool

and yes, we are all NZ citizens made up of many people’s with allowances made for first nation peoples to redress past injustices wrought by colonial oppression.

Without the racist overtones/undertones or whatever, that’s a fact you can’t change.

Fast forward 2 generations and even more so this nation will be Pasifikan by nature, by blood and by identity. That’s another fact you better get used to and can’t change, unless like dime, you want to get postal about it…good luck with that.

Now depending on what type of integrated society you want in 2 generations i think we should start working collectively or you might find that ‘tit for tat’ may mean that in the long term you will lose far more than what you thnk you’re gaining in the present.
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December 22, 2011 11:31am
pollywog

trying to make him flip out and have a tanty.

trolling in other words.
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December 22, 2011 11:32am
KiwiGreg

@ EWS I also like ancient Greek and Roman art, I dont think you need to believe in the Pantheons to appreiciate them even though they were (at the time) far more objective (given the personification of the gods) than most Christian art. I also happen to think that believing in pantheistic gods makes as much sense as believing in that bearded white guy on the roof of the Sistene Chapel (incidently isn’t it funny how the church, making a virtue of poverty and giving in its teachings is such a repository of wealth, god really likes nice stuff it must be said).
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December 22, 2011 11:35am
Fletch

It’s an emotional security blanket, they want there to be something outside of themselves.

James, so you’re saying that 89% of the planet is essentially insecure and wrong, whereas you (who, if you’re Atheist, are part of the 2% that aren’t religious) know better? Isn’t that a wee bit, well, presumptuous?
I don’t really want to use percentages to argue a point (it smacks of OWS) but I did find it interesting in any case.
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December 22, 2011 11:39am
pollywog

So explain to me how it is Bennett’s fault

once more for the intellectually challenged…It’s not about fault or blame.

For her part, it’s about responsibilty for the fuckups in her department executing some sort of executive oversight then owning it.

It’s like saying directors and executives and spokespeople of dodgy finace companies aren’t accountable in the least to their shareholders for their fuckups…

oh and dime, you’re a coward whose opinions arent worth shit. If your answer is a bullet then put up or shut up.
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December 22, 2011 11:41am
immigant

They see me trolling, they hatin.

How about going back to my comment @11:24 and nswering it instead of crying that you’re being trolled on.
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December 22, 2011 11:43am
nasska

Fletch

…”so you’re saying that 89% of the planet is essentially insecure and wrong,”….

That is spin. You ignore the huge part of the 89% who never get a choice in what they believe, eg the Muslims who would be killed if they deserted the faith & the Catholics who are similarly brainwashed from the time they can stand up. In the absence of free will what value faith?
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December 22, 2011 11:45am

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