General Debate 27 September 2012

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Griff

Number of people who have signed: 28410

We, New Zealanders, having founded our society in the equality of comradeship, and living here at home in the land we have made, utterly oppose any laws which establish or promote racial distinction or division.

There shall be one law for all:
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September 27, 2012 8:07am
Pete George

Graeme Edgeler has posted an excellent detailed summary of the GCSB/Dotcom issue – Kim Dotcom: Questions and Answers

His last comment is probably the most important:

…how that breach happened is not actually our biggest problem.

The actions of the Police in using the GCSB as an end-run around laws we have put in place deliberately limiting police powers are of much greater concern.

We’ll find out more tomorrow in Justice Neazor’s report, but this may be where the spoltlight should be. I hope it doesn’t get clouded by attempts at political pointscoring.
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September 27, 2012 8:07am
hj

Experts lament state of NZ child poverty
Anton Blank: More than half of the 230,000 children living below the poverty line are Maori and Pacifica and in 20 years they will make up 60% of NZ’s children.
If we don’t act now to reduce rates of Maori and Pacifica child poverty in 20years we are going to see an explosion of Maori poverty in NZ.
http://www.3news.co.nz/Default.aspx?TabId=367&articleID=270416&ce8273

CLASS ISSUE NOT RACE BASED wrote:
I really wish people would stop trying to define poverty by race. New Zealanders are a fantastically mixed bunch and poverty affects kids across a range of ethnicities (regardless of which cultural groups their parents or academics choose to identify with).
……

Actually no there was/is nothing wrong with the society i grew up in with what may be defined as “Presbyterian values”.
There is, however an on going attempt at changing our society:

“It is not rocket science that Pakeha may be a minority by the late 21st century. It is to be hoped that tangata whenua will be the largest cultural grouping in their own country again. However all the demographic changes will be a change for the worst if Pakeha cannot come to terms with being a minority culture. Our attachment to Westminster democracy has been based on our majority status. Will we find to our horror that minorities in such a system are overruled and undermined? Will we react by supporting more truly equitable and culturally diverse methods of decisionmaking, based upon Te Tiriti, or will we build a fortress, clinging to wealth and power behind barbed wire and guard dogs?”
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO0702/S00068.htm

Decolonisation in a colonised country is also a priority, as is gender equity, et al. I have never understood why people will only advocate for one single solution for what are complex problems that one solution will never fix.
http://blog.greens.org.nz/2010/08/14/inequality-in-aotearoa-life-expectancy-again/#comment-144750
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September 27, 2012 8:08am
iMP

Source of the 2008 Obama “Hope” and “Progress” poster style – old Soviet/Cuba/China Communist propaganda posters of early 20th C. You can see em here: http://conzervative.wordpress.com/2012/09/27/source-of-2008-obama-hope-poster
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September 27, 2012 8:09am
iMP

Doesn’t make Obama a commie, just explains where Fairey got the style from.
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September 27, 2012 8:13am
Keeping Stock

Well, blow us down with a feather; Labour wants unions exempted from Holly Walker’s Members’ Bill to establish a register of lobbyists. Why might that be, we wonder?

http://keepingstock.blogspot.co.nz/2012/09/quelle-surprise.html

Transparency, if it is going to happen has to be across the board. Once again though, Labour wants the ground tilted in its favour. Will they EVER learn?
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September 27, 2012 8:22am
hj

hj (2,968) Says:
i.e a failure to equate poor health of Maori and Pacifica children with family size is met with praise for their cultures while a need is seen to roll back our stodgy old Presbyterian values (the ones that served us well).
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September 27, 2012 8:25am
Tauhei Notts

I went to the Herald this morning to see how they reported the payout by our biggest exporter, Fonterra Co-Op Group Ltd.
I was told that the milk price had dropped from $7.60 to $6.08.
Fonterra’s public relations outfit has confused the repeaters (reporters?).
The payout is made up of a basic milk price (this year $6.08) and a dividend which this year is 32 cents. That is, the milk price plus dividend equals the payout. Hence the $6.40 payout announced on National Radio.
That rather simple analogy was too difficult for the repeaters to discern.
The payout was $7.60 last year. I regret that I am unable to exactly state what the dividend component of that 2011 $7.60 payout was.
I wish that I could get accurate information to read while enjoying the tamarillos with my porridge.
Ferrier got $8mil in a final payout. He was so good that the difference between his former company and Tatua has grown to a chasm. Particularly if one compares the after tax impact of the two companies’ payouts. One wonders what pittance the man would have got if he had been able to get Fonterra to match, or even exceed, Tatua.
Well, he got fortune for having the Company fall so far behind, so logic suggests that he would have got a pittance if his company had performed under his leadership.
Boring?
Yes it is, but this is our country’s biggest industry and it deserves closer informed scrutiny.
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September 27, 2012 8:29am
tom hunter

I don’t think there has been a hell of a lot of coverage of the Japan-China stoush, mainly because our media still have a reflexive Euro-focus, but also because the whole thing can be seen as strutting rather than serious.

It might be time to re-think that last, and we can thank the Internet and the blogosphere for that, in particular two threads on China in Peter Cresswell’s Not PC blog. The first is What’s Going on in China – and it’s scary not because of the communist government but because of the people:

Here’s the smiling staff of a Chinese Audi dealership. The perky slogan on their banner reads: “We will kill every Japanese person even if it means deaths for our own.” Fun times!

They run an Audi dealership and think like that? But it should not be a surprise, as the next thread is one where Cresswell interviews an ex-pat, Russell Watkins who’s spent the last few years living in China:

Q: Have you seen overt signs of nationalism? Protest? Bloodshed?

Yes, in a night club a goon with a microphone chanting (in Chinese) “Fuck Japan,” “Kill Japan”—and the crowd indulging him by chanting back.

More disturbingly, I asked a class of teenagers the other day to write down ten things that will be different about China in ten years. Eight of the ten had variations from ”Japan will be game over” to “Japan will be part of China” to “We will kill all Japanese and Americans” All nice thoughts from 14 year old kids don’t you think?

It is worth noting that the Communist/fascist government made anti-Japan rhetoric part of the curriculum in 1990. If you look at the protests, aside from the local soldiers in civilian clothes that are trucked in, the faces are those of people in there 20’s and early 30’s at most. The government has backed themselves into a corner by peddling this line for so long, now young people are accusing the government of being cowards for not attacking the Japanese. The very thing the Communist/fascist thought would keep them safely ensconced in power, i.e., a population distracted by nationalism, may well, one day force them into doing something crazy like attacking Japan – I wouldn’t put anything past them.

Governments can be rational, mobs are usually not.

And by the way, NZ Herald, this is the sort of stuff you should be publishing.
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September 27, 2012 8:32am
Manolo

Is Lucia involved? http://news.msn.co.nz/worldnews/8539125/catholic-church-bans-yoga-class 🙂
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September 27, 2012 8:36am
hj

“The Government intends to change the Resource Management Act to make more residential land available in an effort to curb rising house prices.
But Opposition parties say that on its own will not make houses more affordable – particularly in Auckland.
Rising house prices in Auckland have renewed fears that New Zealand’s largest city might be in the middle of a property boom.
Finance Minister Bill English admits it’s a worry, and says the Government will respond to the Productivity Commission report on affordable housing in late October.
“We’re working right now on what we can do about housing affordability because we don’t want to see a market take off if it’s just a product of not having enough new land or denser housing to meet the demand.”
The Government’s response will include making changes to the Resource Management Act and local government legislation to free up land for development.”
http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/116161/govt-to-change-rma-to-free-up-residential-land

The Greens can’t have it both ways:

Anti-immigration feeling has no place in the Green party Immigration and Population policies released today, Green MP Keith Locke says
http://www.greens.org.nz/press-releases/greens-counter-peters-welcoming-immigration-policy

Productivity Commision:
We recommend that you:
b agree that Commission’s second tranche of inquiries be selected on the degree that
they:
• are relatively uncontroversial given the desire to establish broad political support for the Commission
http://www.treasury.govt.nz/publications/informationreleases/productivitycommission/pdfs/t2011-2000.pdf

And 80% of our population growth in the last couple of decades has been the net
inflow of non NZ citizens –
http://www.treasury.govt.nz/downloads/pdfs/mi-jarrett-comm.pdf

Government policies blamed for house prices
“Immigration and tax breaks for investment in residential property are being cited as the underlying causes of steep increases in the cost of housing over the past decade.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/4622459/Government-policies-blamed-for-house-prices
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September 27, 2012 8:39am
Fletch

Doesn’t make Obama a commie, just explains where Fairey got the style from.

Even though I like some of his style, Fairey has been taken to task by bloggers before for his wholesale Plagiarism of imagery. Actually, some of it is direct stealing, by the look of some of the examples at the link.
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September 27, 2012 8:48am
hj

” Australia is urging China to work ”constructively” with Fiji’s neighbours following an unprecedented four-day visit by China’s second-ranked leader, during which he pointedly defended the military government of Commodore Frank Bainimarama.”
http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/afternoons/audio/2533760/the-panel-with-raybon-kan-and-jordan-williams-part-2.asx

and an expert on propaganda suggests that we need to be aware of the leverage of Chinese money in the Christchurch rebuild.

This is the result of windfall asset inflation (Bob Jones types and the Property Council membership) creating holes that need filling.
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September 27, 2012 8:51am
Pete George

In parliament yesterday abour’s Hipkid showed that age and bluster are no match for asking the right questions and persisting on getting answers, something Hekia Parata seemed reluctant or unable to do.

Was she wilfully avoiding or just being woeful?

If Parata doesn’t step up and get her act together with her education responsibilities Hipkins could be right, National may end up with an education trainwreck in Christchurch.

Chris Hipkins versus Hekia Parata
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September 27, 2012 8:52am
tom hunter

Since I don’t think the beating of the media should stop any time soon, I thought the following article would be of interest just in case some deluded fool holds up any article by foreign-policy analyst David Ignatius in the Washington Post as being the words of an expert analyst.

The article goes through various critiques of the Turkish government: from outfits like The European Federation of Journalists, who are looking at the 100 or so journalists in prison (more than in China), and The Economist, who have got stuck into the looming debt problems with the Turkish economy. The article then looks at Ignatius’s article on the country, which included interviews with people like PM Erdogan:

In the Washington Post, Ignatius wrote of Erdoğan’s “clout,” his economic achievements, and “Turkey’s ascendancy in the region.” Ignatius refers to Turkey as “this prosperous Muslim democracy” without a word about darkening clouds on the economy. And as to democracy, there is one brief reference to “Erdogan’s squeeze on Turkish journalists, judges and political foes” — with no explanation as to what that might be. In fact the language itself is suggestive: “squeeze” is a slightly humorous word, used lightly. That an American journalist might usefully protest the imprisonment of 100 journalists amid an obvious crackdown on the press eludes Ignatius.

You’d have to wonder why a smart guy (perhaps not so smart) like Ignatius, could be so oblivious, and the article addresses that:

Is this journalism? Perhaps it is a special kind: You treat everyone (except of course conservatives!) you interview with kid gloves, you see and write no evil, so that you are certain to maintain access. You write what they tell you, never challenging claims (in this case) that the economy is fine and democracy is blooming. It is closer to stenography than journalism. And of course it tells the reader little of use about what’s really happening. It is the Authorized Version of the facts. It is guaranteed to get you invited back, and it is most likely to win you a variety of awards.

Sounds like CNN and Saddam Hussein all over again, but the final part hits Ignatius in the nads:

As you are speaking for the Great and the Good, you stay of course on the left, where they always are; being tougher on Republican administrations and conservative governments is essential, and losing some access to them is needless to say a badge of honor. Columns about George W. Bush were tough; columns about Barack Obama are fawning.

That is predictable. But when Ignatius writes of “Turkey’s ascendancy in the region” while Abramowitz says the “much-touted vast Turkish influence in the Middle East seems to have faded”; when Ignatius writes about Turkey’s prosperity and The Economist sees “trouble ahead”; when Ignatius writes admiringly of Erdogan and Turkish democracy but human-rights groups launch campaigns to “Set Turkish Journalists Free,” one may wonder if Ignatius is practicing journalism at all.

The description of Ignatius’s efforts being “closer to stenography than journalism”, could apply to a hell of a lot of the media nowadays.
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September 27, 2012 9:05am
Keeping Stock

@ Pete George – Hekia Parata has been a huge disappointment so far as Education Minister, and she is probably living on borrowed political time. It would not surprise at all if Key is considering a reshuffle.
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September 27, 2012 9:11am
Pete George

Parata was given a tough portfolio at a tough time, but so far she hasn’t toughened up. At that level results matter, so unless there’s rapid improvement the engineer needs to be replaced or National’s education will go off the rails.

The rails are already looking like they may be pinned on flawed sleepers. Poor handling inflate the mistakes.
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September 27, 2012 9:19am
tom hunter

I did love this piece the other day as a wonderful example of how much care is supposedly lavished on various victim groups nowadays. It seems that the University of California, San Diego has a lot of “diversity” efforts going on:

Among the diversity initiatives that continue to cascade out of the president’s office and the individual campuses is an imminent $662,000, system-wide “campus climate survey” to track down the racism of UC’s faculty, staff, and students that is allegedly putting UC’s “most marginalized and vulnerable populations . . . at risk,” in the words of UC President Mark Yudof.

Sounds like they need someone to manage this tough challenge, which means they’ll have to make a good job offer to the brave soul who wants to take on the incipient racism of a university in 2012 in San Diego:

Linda Greene, a diversity bureaucrat and law professor from the University of Wisconsin-Madison, will pull in $250,000 a year in regular salary, but that’s just the beginning: she’ll receive both a relocation allowance of $60,000 and 100 percent reimbursement of all moving expenses, a temporary housing allowance of $13,500, two fully paid house-hunting trips for two to the San Diego area, and reimbursement for all business visits to the campus before her start date in January 2013

Sweet! Joris de Bres and his successors must be spitting. Still, it’s good to see how much the left-wing elite care about the most marginalized and vulnerable populations
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September 27, 2012 9:23am
Manolo

Two terrorists meet: http://dailycaller.com/2012/09/26/ahmadinejad-meets-with-nation-of-islam-leader-louis-farrahkan/
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September 27, 2012 9:29am
graham

New York City is handing out the morning-after pill to girls as young as 14 at more than 50 public high schools, sometimes even before they have had sex. The campaign is believed to be unprecedented in its size and aggressiveness.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10836633

Hmm. I wouldn’t be impressed if my daughter’s school just “assumed” that my daughter, at age 14, was bound to have sex, and takes it upon themselves to give her the morning-after pill.

But some doctors say more schools should follow New York’s lead.

Emergency contraception is safe and effective “if you use it in a timely fashion. It provides relief or solace to a young woman or man who has made a mistake but doesn’t want to have to live with that mistake for the rest of their lives,” said Dr. Cora Breuner, a Seattle physician and member of an American Academy of Pediatrics’ committee on teen health.

This is looking at the issue from a purely “well come on now, let’s be practical” viewpoint, rather than thinking about anything unfashionable like morals and values. I know, it’s not a doctor’s job or the school’s job to make moral judgement calls – except that they ARE making moral judgement calls, even if they don’t see it like that.

The only good part about this story is that at least parents can sign an opt-out form preventing their daughters from taking part.

Does anybody – ANYBODY – even MENTION the word “abstinence” these days? Or the idea of “saving yourself until you’re married”? Or is that just SOOO unfashionable and unrealistic these days?
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September 27, 2012 9:41am
slightlyrighty

Griff.

The solution to what you seek is simple. Maori claim to own all water. I say let them assert that claim. Then point out than every human being is 50-65% water, therefore we are all at least 50% Maori.
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September 27, 2012 9:48am
Andrei

Hmm. I wouldn’t be impressed if my daughter’s school just “assumed” that my daughter, at age 14, was bound to have sex,

The whole concept of modern sex education is predicated upon that assumption and the assumption that your teaching of your children on matters of reproduction and human relationships is almost certainly wrong, most particularly if you ascribe to traditional values.

They can of course take your underage daughter for an abortion and not even tell you that they have done this.

The people behind this are more evil than pedophiles
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September 27, 2012 10:40am
boredboy

Re: Kim Dotcom

People are concerned about the power of the GCSB in spying on people and how they were passed incorrect information on the nationality of Kim Dotcom.

I would like to know is which agency is in charge of spying on New Zealanders inside New Zealand? Is it the police? Do they have similar powers for covert surveillance as the GCSB? I can imagine they would.

Not concerned for my privacy or anything but interested in the ‘food chain’.
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September 27, 2012 10:45am
Weihana

graham (1,264) Says:
September 27th, 2012 at 9:41 am

…

Does anybody – ANYBODY – even MENTION the word “abstinence” these days? Or the idea of “saving yourself until you’re married”? Or is that just SOOO unfashionable and unrealistic these days?

I’m not sure why “saving yourself” until marriage makes you moral, or more moral than anyone else, but insofar as we are talking about teenagers and sex I fail to see why precautions cannot be taken whilst advocating abstinence.

If we are to assume that abstinence sex education works (which it doesn’t http://www.siecus.org/_data/global/images/research_says.pdf), I would suggest it only works if the teenager is receptive to instruction in which case there is no reason to think they wouldn’t be able to comprehend that contraception was for an emergency or given as a precaution and was not an endorsement of sexual activity. And if they are not receptive to such instruction I see no reason to believe they would be receptive to instructions to remain abstinent in any case.

Of course parents should have the authority to determine how their children are raised but while you denounce the pragmatism of other parents as evidence of a lack of morals and values it might also be suggested that your approach is contrary to the evidence on what works and therefore a reflection of ignorance rather than righteousness.
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September 27, 2012 10:51am
Manolo

This pair’s future cannot be bright:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/7734181/Hutt-teens-strip-searched-by-police

Neither girl is now attending school – one after being kicked out for becoming aggressive and unruly after the arrest, the other for fearing her baby would be taken away by Child, Youth and Family after fellow pupils taunted her for being “a criminal”.

The 16-year-old girl and her 14-year-old cousin were arrested on Saturday, January 7, after police received a complaint about an attack on two other teenage girls.
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September 27, 2012 10:54am
Brian Smaller

@Manolo – these girls were trouble before this incident. You don’t get kicked out of school for one infraction these days – especially not in Upper Hutt. The Newspaper and Stuff articles were sensationalist rubbish. Those idiot journalists have no idea about the feral nature of this type of person.
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September 27, 2012 11:01am
graham

Weihana: try reading what I wrote. I am not denouncing how other parents choose to raise their children. I AM denouncing the official state-sanctioned lines that seek to supercede how I as a parent choose to raise my children.

Here’s an interesting little point. Go to http://www.familyplanning.org.nz and search for “condom”. Brings up 10 pages of results (91 results). Search for “morning after pill” – that brings up 12 pages of results (114 results).

Want to guess how many results the search for “abstinence” brings up? 1. That’s not one page of results, that’s “one” result.

If abstinence sex education doesn’t work, I would suggest it is because our society is incredibly geared and biased towards an attitude of “do what feels good, and blow the consequences” in ALL walks of life – not just sex. You may call this pragmatic, I call it sad.
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September 27, 2012 11:03am
graham

And I would not say that “saving yourself” until marriage makes you moral – it is more about values.

Obviously, different people have different values. And it is up to the individual to decide. But damned if I can understand why the school’s/doctor’s/state’s values are more important than mine.
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September 27, 2012 11:06am
Weihana

Andrei (1,480) Says:
September 27th, 2012 at 10:40 am

Hmm. I wouldn’t be impressed if my daughter’s school just “assumed” that my daughter, at age 14, was bound to have sex,

The whole concept of modern sex education is predicated upon that assumption…

No, the assumption is that providing access to contraception and information on sex is not determinative as to whether or not they will engage in sexual activity. Just as putting air bags in cars is not an invitation to drive into oncoming traffic.

…and the assumption that your teaching of your children on matters of reproduction and human relationships is almost certainly wrong…

It is not an assumption. Abstinence only sex education does not work.

http://www.siecus.org/_data/global/images/research_says.pdf

That doesn’t take away your right to raise your children according to your own values, however.

…most particularly if you ascribe to traditional values.

Right, because every other parent who doesn’t ascribe to your nonsense wants their daughter to be the town bike. It couldn’t possibly be that they are receptive to evidence over religious dogma.

They can of course take your underage daughter for an abortion and not even tell you that they have done this.

The people behind this are more evil than pedophiles

Your statement speaks for itself. 🙂
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September 27, 2012 11:08am
Manolo

I agree with you, Brian: this pair are scum. The 16y.o. , a mother already, must be on the DPB at our expense.

The precocity of these young criminals is stunning. By the time they are 20 or 25 they will probably have lived an entire miserable life and contributed nothing to society.
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September 27, 2012 11:08am
Griff

boredboy
Are you asleep in charge of a life?
SIS http://www.nzsis.govt.nz/
The NZSIS is a civilian intelligence and security organisation. Its threefold roles are:

to investigate threats to security and to work with other agencies within Government, so that the intelligence it collects is actioned and threats which have been identified are disrupted
to collect foreign intelligence, and
to provide a range of protective security advice and services to Government.
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September 27, 2012 11:12am
graham

Weihana, I realise your last comment was directed at Andrei, but I repeat:

If abstinence sex education doesn’t work, I would suggest it is because our society is incredibly geared and biased towards an attitude of “do what feels good, and blow the consequences” in ALL walks of life – not just sex. You may call this pragmatic, I call it sad.
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September 27, 2012 11:15am
Manolo

Exposing MSM’s true colours: http://newsbusters.org/blogs/tim-graham/2012/09/26/cnn-and-msnbc-pundit-arrested-vandalizing-anti-muslim-ad-ny-subway-syste
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September 27, 2012 11:16am
Weihana

graham (1,267) Says:
September 27th, 2012 at 11:03 am

Weihana: try reading what I wrote. I am not denouncing how other parents choose to raise their children. I AM denouncing the official state-sanctioned lines that seek to supercede how I as a parent choose to raise my children.

How so? Parents can opt out. The only logical conclusion is that your criticism is toward all those who would endorse such an approach and not opt out.

If abstinence sex education doesn’t work, I would suggest it is because our society is incredibly geared and biased towards an attitude of “do what feels good, and blow the consequences” in ALL walks of life – not just sex. You may call this pragmatic, I call it sad.

Ahh, it’s societies fault that what you advocate doesn’t work. Perhaps you would prefer a society that didn’t worship the devil. Iran perhaps? Good conservative values there. 🙂
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September 27, 2012 11:17am
Lucia Maria

Manolo at 8:36am,

Good on that priest! We need more like him! I wish some one had warned me about yoga when I was a teenager. People don’t realise the spiritual influences of some practices like yoga can be very harmful, no matterr how beneficial they seem to the body.

I was just going to read, as I’m at the hairdresser’s, but here I am typing away while my hair is being coloured.
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September 27, 2012 11:17am
Weihana

graham (1,268) Says:
September 27th, 2012 at 11:06 am

And I would not say that “saving yourself” until marriage makes you moral – it is more about values.

Obviously, different people have different values. And it is up to the individual to decide. But damned if I can understand why the school’s/doctor’s/state’s values are more important than mine.

What are you complaing about? Parents who are immune to facts and evidence can opt out.
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September 27, 2012 11:19am
Lucia Maria

Graham at 11:15am,

Totally agree. Heroic parents are needed in today’s times, who also need to instill in their children a love of virtue if they are not to succumb to the lures of the world, which are many and easily ensnare even well raised children.
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September 27, 2012 11:23am
graham

What am I complaining about? The fact that a school’s/doctor’s/state’s values are considered more important than mine. Sorry, I thought I made that clear.

And yes, it IS society’s fault in some ways. Let me ask you this – would you disagree with my assertion that our society is incredibly geared and biased towards an attitude of “do what feels good, and blow the consequences” in ALL walks of life? (Ok, maybe that should be reined back in to “MOST walks of life”).

If my assertion is correct, then society needs to stand up and accept that they are reaping the consequences of what they have sown over the last few decades.
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September 27, 2012 11:25am
Weihana

Brian Smaller (3,803) Says:
September 27th, 2012 at 11:01 am

The Newspaper and Stuff articles were sensationalist rubbish. Those idiot journalists have no idea about the feral nature of this type of person.

Manolo (7,567) Says:
September 27th, 2012 at 11:08 am

I agree with you, Brian: this pair are scum. The 16y.o. , a mother already, must be on the DPB at our expense.

The precocity of these young criminals is stunning. By the time they are 20 or 25 they will probably have lived an entire miserable life and contributed nothing to society.

Given that the arrests were unlawful, the evidence against them tenuous, that the police failed to consult a social worker as required by law and allegedly denied them access to a lawyer, I would think criticism in this case should be primarily directed towards the police.

Effectively justifying the unlawful behaviour of the Police by reference to perceived character flaws on the part of these young girls only encourages this mindset amongst the Police force that the ends justify breaching the law.

Earlier this week Youth Court judge Mary O’Dwyer gave permission to report her findings, in which she ruled the arrests unlawful and dismissed the charges.

She criticised the police’s decision not to free the girls on bail, to keep them in custody for more than 24 hours and to not consult a senior social worker before doing so, which is required by law.

Judge O’Dwyer noted that the descriptions taken of the alleged offenders did not match the 16-year-old, while the evidence in respect to the 14-year-old was weak.

Both arresting officers were probationary officers who had little experience.

I would have thought that a probationary officer would be teamed up with someone more qualified and experienced.
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September 27, 2012 11:33am
Longknives

Manolo- What’s a bet that by her mid 20s the 16 year old has half a dozen kids?
A very profitable lifestyle choice these days thanks to the ever-generous New Zealand taxpayer.
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September 27, 2012 11:33am
Weihana

graham (1,269) Says:
September 27th, 2012 at 11:25 am

What am I complaining about? The fact that a school’s/doctor’s/state’s values are considered more important than mine. Sorry, I thought I made that clear.

But you lack any basis for that remark which is the problem. If one can opt out, then clearly your values are overriding.

And yes, it IS society’s fault in some ways. Let me ask you this – would you disagree with my assertion that our society is incredibly geared and biased towards an attitude of “do what feels good, and blow the consequences” in ALL walks of life? (Ok, maybe that should be reined back in to “MOST walks of life”).

If my assertion is correct, then society needs to stand up and accept that they are reaping the consequences of what they have sown over the last few decades.

Yes I disagree with your assertion. It is rhetoric designed precisely to ignore the evidence that abstinence-only education does not work.
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September 27, 2012 11:37am
Peter

TVNZ maths failure:

“Only 3% said they thought the Government had handled the process ‘very well’ while 25% said they thought it had been handled ‘quite well’. However 47% said ‘not that well’ and 31% said ‘not well at all’. The rest were not sure.”

http://tvnz.co.nz/politics-news/poll-critical-pm-s-handling-asset-sales-5104492
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September 27, 2012 11:48am
graham

Weihana, forget about sex for a minute. My assertion is that our society is biased towards an attitude of “do what feels good, and blow the consequences” in MANY walks of life – not just sex.

One example – I would claim that divorces and separations have increased over the last four decades as legal reforms have led to easier divorces. This paper (http://ftp.iza.org/dp2023.pdf) researches that very subject across 18 European countries. In my opinion, society across the Western world is increasingly geared towards an attitude of “If you get bored with your partner, if life gets too difficult, when problems come up – just walk away.” Since the 1970s in New Zealand, the marriage rate has declined while the divorce rate has increased (http://www.stats.govt.nz/browse_for_stats/population/estimates_and_projections/demographic-trends-2010/chapter3.aspx).
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September 27, 2012 11:50am
tom hunter

… designed precisely to ignore the evidence that abstinence-only education does not work.

There needs to be some definition placed behind the term “does not work”. Obviously a sex education that targets only contraception could be said to “not work” if the target was 0% “accidental” pregnancies.

So what is considered a good target by which to compare and contrast contraceptive-only and abstinence-only sex education? For that matter, would not a campaign that focuses on both abstinence and contraception be better than either alone?

Frankly all the sex education I had at school was a waste of time because, even in the pre-Internet world, most of us had pretty much found out all about the mechanics of sex and contraception before the classes. In any case, when the crucial moment of decision arrived it was not the mechanics that were in mind but the emotional state of wanting and – for most of the girls – being wanted. Nobody in our schools ever gave the slightest attention to that aspect.
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September 27, 2012 11:54am
Manolo

Sorry Weihana, but in this case I cannot share your good will.

Unfortunately one or both of these individuals will make future news as criminals. It would be interesting to know their family background, to see how deep the dysfunctionality goes.
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September 27, 2012 11:55am
RRM

Unfortunately one or both of these individuals will make future news as criminals.

Because they’re Maoris you mean Manolo?
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September 27, 2012 12:06pm
grumpyoldhori

Graham, a interesting comment, young women who have sex before taking part in that pagan ritual called marriage have no values.
So the 70% of Mormon women who have sex before marriage in Utah have no values ?
Oh, did you have sex before you got married ?
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September 27, 2012 12:08pm
graham

grumpyoldhori: I’m sorry, I don’t see where I have said that “young women who have sex before taking part in that pagan ritual called marriage have no values.”

I *suspect* that you are misinterpreting my comment that:

This is looking at the issue from a purely “well come on now, let’s be practical” viewpoint, rather than thinking about anything unfashionable like morals and values.

This was not intended to say that people who have sex before marriage have no values. Rather, that the doctors making these calls are not interested in considering morals or values.

Refer to my comment at 11:06 am:

And I would not say that “saving yourself” until marriage makes you moral – it is more about values.

Obviously, different people have different values. And it is up to the individual to decide.

And in answer to your last question – no, I did not.
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September 27, 2012 12:18pm
Nookin

Today has had its brighter moments. Seeing this was one of them.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/7736665/TVNZ-announces-it-may-axe-Close-Up
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September 27, 2012 12:19pm
hj

Perhaps the advertisers hate Close up (he who pays the piper)?
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September 27, 2012 1:11pm
wf

All this talk about sex! As Tom Hunter said, all the sex education he had at school came far too late –

The time for sex education is in that period after the curious 4’s and before the hormonal urges of the pre teens start moving. This was what we used to call the ‘latent’ period, when parents could deliver entirely factual instruction WHILE ALSO imprinting and explaining the parents’ desired standards of behavior.

You only have to do it once, because the oldest one tells the younger ones, lol. Then they ask if what so and so said at school was correct. On the bus. In loud enquiring voices.
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September 27, 2012 1:36pm
graham

Northland Labour list MP Shane Jones is unhappy over the appointment of “three white guys” to lead the region’s new economic development and tourism body Northland Inc.

“I’m annoyed about it. To develop the potential of Northland, you can’t turn a blind eye to the significant presence of Maori,” Mr Jones said yesterday.

Well, quite. Because no whiteys live in Northland, right. How on earth did this happen? How on earth did some white guys get employed in Northland? Further into the article, the problem is revealed.

NRC chairman Craig Brown said his council was fully aware of the potential for Maori economic development in the region, particularly with Treaty of Waitangi grievance settlements injecting millions of dollars into the North.

“They were selected purely on their commercial qualifications. Their race, gender or religious beliefs were not considered,” Mr Brown said.

Ah, there’s the problem right there. Fancy selecting somebody to do a job based on their ability to do the job. Whoever heard of such a thing.
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September 27, 2012 1:38pm
Manolo

The Russian rooting for the Kenyan: http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/why-putin-wants-obama-to-win/468837.html
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September 27, 2012 2:22pm
big bruv

Anybody else see Jamie lee Ross get cleaned up by that wanker Hipkins this morning on Breakfast TV?…It was painful to watch.

He needs to be sent to the very back of the house and to be told to keep his head down for a long long time.
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September 27, 2012 6:44pm
Reid

Anyone see this story on closing Close Up?
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainment/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501119&objectid=10836838

Ralston said TVNZ’s proposed “re-formatting” of the show meant there would no longer be an attempt at serious current affairs.

Newsflash Ralston: If Close Up was supposed to be an “attempt” at “serious current affairs” then you might as well showed a half-hour clip of Amazing Animal Moments every single night since Close Up started and the audience would have been just as well informed about “serious current affairs” as they were when Sainsbury was in charge.

Nevertheless it seems TVNZ has determined in its exceeding wisdom that Close Up must’ve been too high-brow and intellectual for the average Kiwi so guess fucking what, they’re probably going to get: “Telegenic TV host Pippa Wetzell” and “New Zealand’s Got Talent host Tamati Coffey.”

Wow. Fucking hell. Imagine how those two are going to cope with useful insights when say, the US/Israel bombs Iran and they do a “Close Up Replacement Rebranded” special.

I mean I don’t give a shit. I haven’t watched hardly any TV news for years but crikey. I do feel sorry for any of the 750k poor bastards that apparently do tune in each weeknight expecting to be challenged and informed with insight galore. And just imagine what the seventh form Social Studies classes are going to report back on their “Current Affairs” element in the curricula.
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September 27, 2012 6:44pm
kowtow

reid

TV1 actually ran the end of Walrus as a news item during the 6 o’clock news! The news is news.Pathetic.

The encouraging thing about that item was that they compared Closeup viewer nimbers with Campbell’s,the little lefty polls even worse than closeup and the trend is doooooown,hopefully the little prick will be binned too and he can go apply for a job as a hobbit.

Whatever TV1 come up with it will be even worse than the current fare…..something edgy,with it,to appeal to the younger demographic, you know the ones who can’t be bothered anyway.
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September 27, 2012 6:55pm
Reid

Hard to see kowtow why the idiots don’t get the fact there are hundreds of thousands of high income people who thirst for serious insightful bulletins but no, lowest common denominator all the way.

he can go apply for a job as a hobbit

If Campbell get’s what he deserves and gets canned, I guarantee he’ll become a Gween MP. He couldn’t go to Aus, they’d hate him and he can’t stay in journalism here, so what is left to the little twat, but that. The really sad and pathetic part would be the Pwess Gallewy would fawn all over him.
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September 27, 2012 7:18pm
nasska

Reid

…”thousands of high income people who thirst for serious insightful bulletins”…..

…..but they don’t watch TV anyway. Long, long ago, anyone with an above room temperature IQ turned their TV screen to the wall & started taking extended walks with the dog. Many actually found the dog to be better intellectual company than TV1 or 3.

Some of the more cerebral watchers of TV News & current affairs today have IQs in the high 80’s so they find McDonalds ads interspersed with interviews of David Shearer or Cath Delahunty to be intellectually stimulating to the extreme

A few are inspired to become TV personalities & Green MPs.
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September 27, 2012 7:32pm
Longknives

Nasska and Reid- I detest Campbell and The Walrus as much as the next sane man. But I will absolutely not hear a bad word spoken about Pippa Wetzell..
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September 27, 2012 7:41pm
Kevin

Wheedle TV?
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September 27, 2012 7:43pm
chiz

The top ten lamest superheroes.
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September 27, 2012 7:44pm
nasska

Longknives

Why do I have this niggling feeling that your determination to get a fair deal for Pippa may have more to do with stimulation that is not on an intellectual level? 🙂
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September 27, 2012 7:46pm
RF

Longknives… I am surprised that Pippa has time to be on TV. Every time I see her she is pregnant. At least she is straight.
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September 27, 2012 7:48pm
Longknives

Nasska- As a fellow journalist my admiration for Pippa is purely professional and absolutely nothing to do with those ‘naughty librarian’ glasses she sometimes wears..
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September 27, 2012 7:49pm
Griff

Celebrates famous for being famous. Inane reality tv that you wonder how the participants manage to not eat themselves. American documentarys that take an hour of repeating the same phrase to show you nothing of interest. News that is 5 second sound bytes between the sycophantic mutual arse licking of the hosts . Ghosts and mediums and other mumbojombo dressed up to scare the stupid even more stupid.
Adds for erectile dysfunction,tampons and banks with bad costumer service blasted out at 90gb every 10 minutes. Why the fuck do people actually bother watching the stupid thing ?
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September 27, 2012 7:49pm
nasska

There is hot sex
fast sex
oral sex
safe sex
fruit sex
phone sex
group sex
kinky sex…
and for all you Green supporters, there’s masturbation.
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September 27, 2012 8:00pm
Steve (North Shore)

Green sex. Is that why they moan?

Must be another reason why they moan
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September 27, 2012 8:15pm
Johnboy

You’ve left out folks who are animal lovers nasska! 🙂
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September 27, 2012 8:18pm
Steve (North Shore)

Hey Greens,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9GynoPVyRY
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September 27, 2012 8:19pm
nasska

JB

How could I forget? 🙂
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September 27, 2012 8:20pm
Kevin

Sister of hawke brothers who occupied bastion point in a maori land claim protest in 1977 Has been convicted of benefit fraud while living in a 1.3 million dollar state house for 12 years.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10836794&ref=newsl_morningnewsdirect_J20080513_133717_5781_6889_875540616
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September 27, 2012 8:22pm
RF

Green sex. Very friendly brothers and sisters. Maybe mum thrown in.
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September 27, 2012 8:23pm
Johnboy

You are fuckin disgusting Steve (North Shore).

Trying to peddle your filthy wares on a respectable site like KB!!

If you would like to contact me at sheepforme@greasy.co.nz though I may be interested in your stainless steel introductory butt plugs however! 🙂
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September 27, 2012 8:29pm
Griff

An Amish woman and her daughter were riding in an open buggy one cold, blustery January day. The daughter said to the mother, “My hands are freezing cold.” The mother replied, “Put your hands between your legs. The body heat will warm them up.” So the daughter did, and her hands warmed up. The next day, the daughter was riding in the buggy with her boyfriend. The boyfriend said, “My hands are freezing cold.” The daughter said, “Put them between my legs, they’ll warm up.” The next day, the boyfriend is driving in the buggy with the daughter. He said, “My nose is freezing cold.” The daughter said, “Put it between my legs. It will warm up.” He did, and his nose warmed up. The next day, the boyfriend is driving again with the daughter and he said, “My penis is frozen solid.” The next day, the daughter is driving in the buggy with her mother, and she says to her mother, “Have you ever heard of a penis?” The slightly concerned mother says, “Sure, why do you ask?” The daughter says, “Well, they make one hell of a mess when they thaw out.
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September 27, 2012 8:37pm
Johnboy

And after it freezes again the only cure is to cut the fellows beard off! 🙂
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September 27, 2012 8:38pm
Steve (North Shore)

Sold out of those buttplugs Johnboy, but I am looking into it
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September 27, 2012 8:46pm
Johnboy

Not too deeply I trust? 🙂
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September 27, 2012 8:49pm
nasska

Definition of a fierce competitor:

Coming first, third & ninth in a masturbation race.
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September 27, 2012 8:50pm
Yvette

Encore une fois, déjà
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September 27, 2012 8:55pm
Griff

Being a conservative man, when I checked into my hotel on a recent trip, I said to the lady at the registration desk … “I hope the porn channel in my room is disabled.” To which she replied, “No, it’s regular porn, you sick bastard..”
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September 27, 2012 8:59pm
nasska

Mary had a little lamb …
… Long story short, she got 10 years for bestiality.
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September 27, 2012 9:05pm
Griff

A lady went to her doctor for a check-up. when asked how she got the bruises on the outside of her thighs, she explained that she got them from having sex. The doctor then told her she would have to change positions until the bruises healed. She replied “Oh doctor, I can’t… my dog’s breath is awful!”
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September 27, 2012 9:08pm
Johnboy

This may have helped her.

http://www.google.co.nz/imgres?q=wearing+a+gas+mask&hl=en&sa=X&biw=1142&bih=598&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=wd6bplffIDUskM:&imgrefurl=http://flickriver.com/photos/angells60640/3566632909/&docid=-IkjzPY_BMkosM&imgurl=http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2476/3566632909_ab4b656152.jpg&w=500&h=368&ei=hRhkUMf2D4LDmQX3uYEg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=766&vpy=222&dur=836&hovh=193&hovw=261&tx=131&ty=79&sig=104124734316792355775&page=3&tbnh=127&tbnw=172&start=48&ndsp=28&ved=1t:429,r:12,s:48,i:264
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September 27, 2012 9:13pm
nasska

According to a new study, 99% of women say they don’t like men who wear leather trousers.

That actually works out rather well, since 100% of men who wear leather trousers don’t like women.
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September 27, 2012 9:16pm
Johnboy

Go tell that to the AGM of your local bikie gang nasska! 🙂
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September 27, 2012 9:21pm
nasska

No exceptions JB….they’ll probably take it badly at first but in the end it will all be for the best. 🙂
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September 27, 2012 9:24pm
Griff

A Biker walks into a bar, he takes a seat at the bar and growls:

“Bartender! Get me a drink!” The bartender obliges, and the biker scarfs down the drink. Slamming the glass down on the bar, he growls:

“Bartender! Get me another!” The bartender pours him another drink. After a few more rounds, the bartender attempts some conversation:

“Sir, he says, it seems that you’re visibly upset. What’s the problem?” The biker looks at him and snorts:

“I just went home and caught my ol’ lady screwing my best friend!”

“Oh man,” says the bartender, that’s rough… “What did you do?” The biker says:

“Well, I grabbed her by the hair, threw her out nekkid, threw her clothes out after her, and told her never EVER to come back.”

“Wow,” says the bartender in awe: “That’s tough man, what did you do to your friend?”

“Well,” says the biker, “I marched right back upstairs, I grabbed HIM by the scruff of the neck, and I said: BAD DOG.”
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September 27, 2012 9:36pm

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