General Debate 6 December 2014

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Rowan

Nookin
Pretty bloody rich, if you look at any of the threads its pretty bloody obvious who the ones who are “deliberitely misrepresenting the facts” and they also give as good as they get in terms of any “abuse”. I would and do “debate with some semblance of intelligence and grace” but when engaging with loons like “Muggins” and “Stupidboy” it does not get recriprocated. The “blighted” threads unsurprisingly come from guess who? Now lets see if you can work that one out if you have the brains!
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December 6, 2014 6:32pm
stephieboy

kowtow, the AZAC service is not avowedly Anglican Christian but is fact interdemoninational also another progressive action that along with Harriet may dismay you.

Prayers for the fallen are given each year selected from various denominations including ouI believe our Jewish one.

Again I fail to see from your recent abusive posts what
Christian belief practice actually means to you when it’s obvious you espouse more pagan like .

PS but have to say you apparently share a more skeptical regard to David Bain .
Thank you.
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December 6, 2014 6:32pm
kowtow

milky says

“There is no place for sectarian religious feeling in our public business. Not in English, Maori, Latin or any other language. It has capacity to offend those who do not believe in that rubbish and creates the impression that the state supports, or should support, religion.”

Oh well there goes Anzac Services then.
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December 6, 2014 6:35pm
mikenmild

I’d be happy if the just had the ‘Ode’ and omitted the prayers, but enough of the old codgers seem to expect some mumbling to Jesus.
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December 6, 2014 6:37pm
nasska

….”Army tradition. What’s the problem?”….

I was just thinking of the fallen. Bad enough that the poor bastards died on the other side of the world in a war in which only tradition dictated that we should fight. Tradition that was forgotten when Britain joined the EEC since up until then we could value each life in terms of tons of butter exported.

They were fed a load of crap that they were doing it for God as well.
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December 6, 2014 6:41pm
mikenmild

Harriet, if you object to paying taxes for a public education system then I recommend you stop paying or vote for someone who will adopt your queer preferences. If you otherwise don’t wish your children to be educated in our fine state system, then feel free to go elsewhere.
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December 6, 2014 6:42pm
Nookin

I have heard those lines before, Rowan. Usually, it’s something like “but daddy, he poked his tongue out at me” or “daddy, he started it!”.
You are passionate about the issue, we know. Just cut the shit. It just isn’t necessary and just doesn’t work.
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December 6, 2014 6:42pm
kowtow

From the gummint’s website.

“Traditions & Rituals
The Anzac Day ceremony is rich in tradition and ritual. It is, essentially, a military funeral, with all the solemnity and symbolism such an event entails: uniformed service personnel standing motionless around a memorial, with heads bowed and weapons reversed; a bier of wreaths laid by the mourners; the chaplain reading the words from the military burial service; the firing of three volleys; and the playing of the Last Post, followed by a prayer, hymn, and benediction.”

And yes there appears to be a marked attempt to secularise it. More top down driven cultural change ,to be resisited.
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December 6, 2014 6:43pm
Shawn Herles

“he Anzac Day Service is avowedly Anglican Christian.”

Er…no. It’s interdenominational.
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December 6, 2014 6:44pm
Griff

Who the fuck are you to stand in judgement of anyone on this blog?
As I am an atheist and dont profess to believe in Jesus as the son of god hence take the same notice of his teachings as I do any other philosophy I am quite within my right to judge you as many of us atheists have .

And decided you are a blatant hypocrite.

A practicing christian according to the bible may not judge or use profane language.
hence.
Obviously you are not a practicing christian.

As to repeatedly telling people to fuck off.
You are leaving your self open for a short stay in the naughty corner if any one bothers reporting you .

😆
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December 6, 2014 6:44pm
kowtow

“I’d be happy if the just had the ‘Ode’ and omitted the prayers, but enough of the old codgers seem to expect some mumbling to Jesus.”

Of course,the world in the image of milky,the way it should be.
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December 6, 2014 6:46pm
kowtow

“A practicing christian according to the bible may not judge or use profane language.
hence.”

Bollox.
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December 6, 2014 6:47pm
Shawn Herles

Religious conservatism….The fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.

Naaska, the original version of that was about Puritanism. Anglicans opposed Puritanism. Good Anglicans believe that theological discussion should be accompanied by cigars and whiskey. 🙂
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December 6, 2014 6:49pm
nasska

….”“A practicing christian according to the bible may not judge or use profane language.
hence.”

Bollox.”…..

I wish that had been common knowledge at my (Christian) boarding school. Would have saved me many a caning. 🙂
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December 6, 2014 6:52pm
mikenmild

Was James I a good Anglican, Shawn?
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December 6, 2014 6:52pm
nasska

You’re still a miserable pack of bastards Shawn. 🙂
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December 6, 2014 6:53pm
Rowan

Nookin
Whatever, you are right in that “the shit isn’t neccessary”, Try telling that to Mike and Stupidboy, also try debating with them using logic, facts and reasoning, good luck but you will only receive bs back from them!
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December 6, 2014 6:53pm
Shawn Herles

Was James I a good Anglican, Shawn?

He was a bloody idiot Mike. Any moron could have told him that trying to invade Scotland to impose the PB on them was going to backfire.
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December 6, 2014 6:56pm
mikenmild

James I did not invade Scotland. I hope you are not as shaky on Cherokee history, or I will have to start thinking Redbaiter was right about you.

I was referring to the (famously pious) king’s attitude to tobacco.
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December 6, 2014 6:58pm
Shawn Herles

You’re still a miserable pack of bastards Shawn.

Hence the cigars and whiskey Nasska. They work wonders for a mans attitude and happiness. 🙂
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December 6, 2014 6:59pm
Griff

James 4:11-12

Do not speak evil against one another, brothers. The one who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks evil against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?

Romans 2:1-3
Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God?

Ephesians 4:29
Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear.

Matthew 7:5

You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.

😆

Kow tow.

Not a practicing christian.

Just another Sunday morning catholic.
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December 6, 2014 7:00pm
Shawn Herles

You are quite right Mike, it was Charles I. Cripes, that’s embarrassing as I wrote a paper on the English Civil war and got an A for it.

Oops! 🙂
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December 6, 2014 7:02pm
Sponge

Penny @5:48

Would you be satisfied if the Council never used any outside contractors at all (at what would, without a shadow of doubt, be a monumental cost)? Also do you think that it would result in “transparency” if this were to happen?

Genuine questions.
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December 6, 2014 7:06pm
Shawn Herles

Also do you think that it would result in “transparency” if this were to happen?

I strongly suspect it would result in the opposite. Plus, as wat pointed out to Penny earlier, she does not seem to understand that it would raise costs dramatically, and rates would have to go up even more as a result.

I seriously doubt it’s even feasible to keep everything “in house”
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December 6, 2014 7:09pm
nasska

If you didn’t pay your rates then it probably wouldn’t bother you greatly over how much more you weren’t paying Shawn. 🙂
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December 6, 2014 7:11pm
Shawn Herles

Yes, it’s very easy for Penny to call for changes that would cause rates to skyrocket when she doesn’t bother to pay them herself.
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December 6, 2014 7:14pm
kowtow

giff ,youve missed your calling ,you’re a great bible thumper.Doing a good job there.
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December 6, 2014 7:20pm
Rachael Membery

Rowan (2,558 comments) says:

December 6th, 2014 at 6:32 pm

‘Intelligence and grace’? That is very subjective and I am not sure whether it should be self determined or proclaiming.

Seems quite abusive to me, feel free to prove me wrong. 😉
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December 6, 2014 7:20pm
freemark

Penny, you don’t pay rates, I doubt very much whether you pay net tax. Who the hell do you think you are to try and dictate where either rate or tax dollars paid by other people are spent? Do you really think that the woes of Auckland or NZ are caused by those that pay their taxes & rates, rather than other leftie leeches that just spend them without any contribution to the pot?
You would have to be one of the biggest hypocrites I have ever seen, and in NZ 2014 that is saying a lot…
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December 6, 2014 7:21pm
Viking2

An Arab family was considering putting their grandfather, Abdullah, in a nursing home. All the Arab Facilities were completely full, so they had to put him in an Italian home.

After a few weeks in the Italian facility, they came to visit Grandpa.

How do you like it here?” asked the grandson?”

“It’s wonderful! Everyone here is so courteous and respectful,” said grandpa.

“We’re so happy for you. We were worried that this was the wrong place for you since you are a little different from everyone.”

“Oh, no! Let me tell you about how wonderfully they treat the residents”, Abdullah said with a big smile.

“There’s a musician here – he’s 85 years old. He hasn’t played the violin in 20 years, and everyone still calls him “Maestro”! There is a judge in here – he’s 95 years old. He hasn’t been on the bench in 30 years and everyone still calls him “Your Honor”. There’s a dentist here – 90 years old. He hasn’t fixed a tooth for 25 years, and everyone still calls him “Doctor”!

And me I haven’t had sex for 45 years, and they still call me “The Fucking Arab”.
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December 6, 2014 7:29pm
Viking2

Why Penny is so right.

A bloke goes to the local council to apply for a job in the office
The interviewer asks him, “Are you allergic to anything?”
He replies, “Yes, caffeine.”
“Have you ever worked for the public service before?”
“Yes, I was in the army.” he says, “I was in Iraq for two tours.”
Then he asks, “Are you disabled in any way?”
The guy says, “Yes. A mine exploded near me when I was there and I lost both of my testicles”.
The interviewer grimaces and then says, “O.K. You’ve
got enough points for me to take you on right away. Our normal hours are from 8.00am to 4.00pm…….but you can start tomorrow at 10.00am and carry on starting at 10.00am every day.”
The bloke is puzzled and asks, “If the work hours are from 8.00am to 4.00pm, why don’t you want me here until 10.00am?
I’m not looking for any special treatment y’know”
“What you have to understand is that this is a council
job,” the interviewer says, “For the first two hours, we just stand around drinking coffee and scratching our bollocks. There’s no point in you coming in for that.”

😆 😆
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December 6, 2014 7:33pm
Viking2

Dear Mr Cameron,
After 5 years of the smoking ban, two thousand pubs have disappeared.
Just imagine what could disappear if you banned “Halal
Meat”! ………..

Give it some thought please!!!
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December 6, 2014 7:35pm
Scott

Mikenmild as usual is quite wrong on religion. We are not becoming more secular as far as I can tell. Secular people here as elsewhere can’t be bothered making the sacrifice to have children and so we have many immigrants coming in who tend to breed prolifically.
In our church for example there are lots of Filipinos who do an amazing thing, they don’t live together, instead they get married, stay married and have plenty of children. Other immigrants are often Christian but we also have Hindus, Buddhist and of course Muslims.

So demographic trends are that New Zealand will become more religious as time goes by.

My prediction is that New Zealand must become more Christian or else we will fall to Islam.
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December 6, 2014 7:35pm
dad4justice

“A bloke goes to the local council to apply for a job in the office”

Viking2 that dude obviously works at City Queer.No wonder the CCC is a billion in the shit. Poor rate payer!
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December 6, 2014 7:36pm
Griff

scott
I see you dont let the actual census get in the way of your faith.
after all its only a poll of everyone in New Zealand with numbers and shit .
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December 6, 2014 7:40pm
Longknives

Jesus the GD has been over-run by sneering, pontificating Atheists….
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December 6, 2014 7:41pm
cha

In our church for example there are lots of Filipinos who do an amazing thing,

The Filipino I know has a wife and family at home, a girlfriend and child in Hawke Bay and another one down the road from where he lives. But he is a good Catholic lad, confession on Saturday, mass on Sunday and this year he did make the Easter midnight service.
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December 6, 2014 7:43pm
freemark

A crash on Auckland Harbour Bridge delays 10,000’s of motorists on a busy Saturday. What is happening with the Police that they can’t get some photos & measurements within an hour while the injured are removed and get the bloody road cleared? Who was behind the new 70kmh speed limit on the bridge..can they just arbitrarily set limits like this and that “safer speed zone” on SH2? I got waved over on Dominion Rd a few weeks ago at 6:01 PM in the bus lane..I was 99% percent sure that 6 PM was the cut off but the admittedly friendly boy in blue told me it was 6:30..I have now checked and I was right..no ticket, very lucky for them. I am struggling to instill any respect for the Police into my daughters when they seem to display incompetence at best, arrogance and ignorance at worst..
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December 6, 2014 7:51pm
waikatogirl

Nasska: ….”The atheists who post on this blog will be in full support”…..

***
Nukuleka, I don’t believe in god but I certainly don’t want to do away with NZ’s Christian based society. It is what NZ society is based on. I just don’t need god in my daily life but I live by Christian values. If others choose to hold prayers etc, that is fine and I am respectful of that, I just don’t find religion necessary for a happy and fulfilled life.
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December 6, 2014 8:06pm
ngatimozart

RF (1,462 comments) says:
December 6th, 2014 at 6:02 pm
ngatimzozart. 1.30pm. I see you are a newbie. Ok I followed up with a post at 9.31am pointing out that the white race was also guilty of terrible deeds. It’s the hypocricy of some of the Maori race who welcome the remains of the sold slaves back to nz as heros. My impression is that Maori believe they were wronged by the evil white race for taking the heads etc…. I have relations killed overseas in ww1 & ww2 and they rest in peace there with dignity. Maybe I should ask the Govt to bring them home.

I might be somewhat new here but not to forums per se. They aren’t being welcomed back as heroes but as long lost people. It’s not hypocrisy per se about bringing the heads back and honouring them as they do but paying honours to those who were taken far from their homeland in death and being bought back and belatedly also honouring their lives. It is also a cultural thing and Maori have a different world view and belief system to non Maori. By paying honours and say karakia for these moko mai we believe that we can help them to finally rest in peace. Different cultures and sometimes parts of our Maori culture are misunderstood.

One part of me believes that it would only be right and proper to return our war dead home, bring them back to their homeland, back home to their families, but the logical part of me says that no govt will part with the money to do that. I hope that you remember you relatives who died in WW1 & WW2 especially on ANZAC Day. They are the true heroes in my book.
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December 6, 2014 8:16pm
waikatogirl

Religion is olde world crowd control. Do as we say or you will burn in hell…
Of course, that only works if you actually believe. 😉
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December 6, 2014 8:19pm
Rachael Membery

ngatimozart (32 comments) says:

December 6th, 2014 at 8:16 pm

Analogous to the Chinese burial ship up the Hokianga? in the first instance, returning the remains to China now the families seem happy for the remains to stay in situ and to be memorialized.
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December 6, 2014 8:27pm
waikatogirl

Kowtow: The Anzac Day Service is avowedly Anglican Christian .

According to michael above it should now be either “other christian” or “No religion” ……duh.

***
Obviously this is due to NZ coming under the rule of Queen Elizabeth, head of the Church of England, or the Anglican Church. Surely no other Christian religion can take offense at the NZ Anglicans, they are a pretty benign bunch 🙂
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December 6, 2014 8:33pm
jack185

waikatogirl: Love your stuff. Do you have twitter? You’ve got a follower waiting for you here 😉
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December 6, 2014 8:35pm
Viking2

Rachael Membery (1,582 comments) says:
December 6th, 2014 at 8:27 pm

ngatimozart (32 comments) says:

December 6th, 2014 at 8:16 pm

Analogous to the Chinese burial ship up the Hokianga? in the first instance, returning the remains to China now the families seem happy for the remains to stay in situ and to be memorialized.
===================
What remains?
don’t forget these were bodies already buried prior to being exhumed and sent home.
They are in deep water so difficult to retrieve.
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December 6, 2014 8:35pm
Rufus

Naska “Religious conservatism….The fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.”

Shawn “Naaska, the original version of that was about Puritanism. Anglicans opposed Puritanism”

That’s another one of those lies that’s become so embedded in our liberal western society – that the Puritans were boring, hated sex, and were dreadfully unhappy kill joys.

Nothing could be further from the truth. Read some of their writings – they had well-rounded world views, obviously enjoyed sex since they had plenty of children, and once away from Engerland and persecution, seemed perfectly happy and thankful for their lot.

You simply don’t like the fact they were Christian.

The Victorians, on the other hand, were a bit screwed up, about lots of things.
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December 6, 2014 8:38pm
Rufus

Waikatogirl – “Religion is olde world crowd control. Do as we say or you will burn in hell…
Of course, that only works if you actually believe.”

Socialism is contemporary crowd control. Do as we say or you will be shot. Whether you believe or not. Just do as we say.

See – any socialist hellhole society in the last 100 years.

Green “environmental” politics is also contemporary Western crowd control – do as we say, give us all your money, or the world will burn up.

Again, whether you believe or not is irrelevant. Just do as we say and give us your money.

See – the near future. A liberal boot stomping on your face forever.

At least religion is voluntary.
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December 6, 2014 8:44pm
waikatogirl

Complaining about NZ’s traditional religious values is like a Nimby moving say from a city into the country and complaining about country sounds and smells.

Just because you don’t agree with something doesn’t mean you have to take any notice of it, and it certainly doesn’t give anyone the right to try and ban it. It may be on the edge of your life but you don’t need to take any notice of it… Live and let live… 🙂
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December 6, 2014 8:52pm
ngatimozart

MH (823 comments) says:
December 6th, 2014 at 4:23 pm
ngati mozzy

As maori treated the majority of their slaves as possessions unworthy of pity or humanity then your view that I would feel different is indeed wrong, it’s the hypocrisy and fawning respect and double standards for these objects that annoys me. Even as Europeans procured them as objects of curiosity none the less the owners had no compunction in not delivering up to the demand in this trade. But with Christianity and British law and order how things changed. Mores or post facto morality ? No word of apology from the offending dominant tribes, no hint of koha taking place behind closed maraes?
Many of my ancestors lie buried, some possibly headless, in commonwealth graves throughout Europe and England caused by senseless wars as part of NZ’s commitment to world peace, and symbolically I have no desire to see their remains returned to their birthplace.

Well let’s see, we prostituted our women for guns, starved our people to grow potatoes to sell to pakeha for guns, sold moko mai for guns and it was reported that we even ate two Pakeha and then regretted that. So the word went around “Don’t eat the Pakeha because they don’t taste right” – I kid you not. What I think happened is that a couple of sealers got eaten and the sealers diet would’ve been salted meat and hard tack whilst at sea with minimal vegetables and fruit, just enough to keep scurvey away.

Maori were and still are a very warlike people and it runs in our blood. Some, like me, have both a healthy mix of Maori and Irish blood so that’s trouble to start with 😀 First of all I repeat what I said in previous post:

One part of me believes that it would only be right and proper to return our war dead home, bring them back to their homeland, back home to their families, but the logical part of me says that no govt will part with the money to do that. I hope that you remember you relatives who died in WW1 & WW2 especially on ANZAC Day. They are the true heroes in my book.

Secondly, in pre contact times there was no single entity as Maori. Each iwi was independent from every other iwi, just like small states. The warred with one another, intermarried for political / diplomatic reasons etc. Each Rangitiras whanau would be the equivalent to a royal family and held that status. It was an absolute monarchy in many ways just without the fancy courts. Life was hard here, very hard and the iwis fought over resources, honour and utu which I think just about covers the multitude of sins. The only protein sources were birds, fish, insects and humans with the bush flora giving up few edible food sources and not many tasty ones. Thirdly, technically all utu was supposed to have been forgiven upon conversion to Christianity hence today there is no reason for iwi or hapu to apologise with regard to moko mai. Fourthly, if they decided to apologise who would they apologise too because these moko mai are unknowns. They don’t have passports etc., so unless some info is known about when and where they were taken from, or their mokos are actually known, then they are unidentified. Fifthly, why should my iwi, hapu or whanau apologise for taking slaves? The other iwis etc., did it to us because it was a very common practise. To put it into a 20th / 21st century context, should NZ apologise to Germany, Italy or Japan for our forces killing their military personnel or taking them prisoner during WW2? I most certainly wouldn’t agree to that.

Now I would find it debatable whether or not “with Christianity and British law and order how things changed” these changes have actually been of benefit for Maori. Personally I find the god of the christians, jews and muslims a rather angry, vengeful and demanding god so one wonders why people bother following this god. Me, I think the Gods or Atua of my people are easier to deal with, get on with and more understanding. Since 1840 we’ve lost 98% of our lands, a large part of our culture and our way of life. It’s been replaced by a foreign import that has bought good things here but also things that have been deleterious to Maoridom and the Maori world.
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December 6, 2014 8:52pm
Griff

ngatimozart
Your ancestors sold the smoked heads for cash to buy guns to further an orgy of genocide.
Often slaves were tattooed to order then slaughtered .
Some estimates give more than 1 % of the total Maori population pre contact were exported as heads.
The hypocrisy displayed is incredible.
Your ancestors didn’t give a fuck about the victims just the few pounds towards a musket to go kill some more .
Now you expect the rest of us to pay to bring them back because its some spiritual imperative .
Bullshit self important wankers jerking them self’s over some mythical dream time that was never real.
You ancestors would think you are squandering your mana over the remains of worthless slaves.
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December 6, 2014 8:54pm
All_on_Red

Griff
I’m part Nga Puhi and have to say you are absolutely correct.
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December 6, 2014 8:57pm
Rufus

ngatimozart “Fifthly, why should my iwi, hapu or whanau apologise for taking slaves? The other iwis etc., did it to us because it was a very common practise.”

Why should my people apologise or pay compensation for taking your land?

The other peoples did it to us, it was a very common practice since day dot.
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December 6, 2014 9:01pm
nasska

….”At least religion is voluntary”…..

Not really. Most people don’t become religious through any damascene moment….rather they have the misfortune to be born into religious families. From babyhood they are brainwashed until the hocus pocus is embedded into the core of their psyche. At that point religion is anything BUT voluntary & the zombies will obey on command.

Muslims have honed the art but Catholics & some of the weirder Christian sects aren’t too shabby with the indoctrination either.
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December 6, 2014 9:01pm
Nukuleka

I see that on the left-wing hate blog TUMEKE Tim Selwyn has posted an anti-white hate diatribe. He seems to think that, unlike the son of the Maori King, a member of the British royal family or John Key’s family would be above the law: ‘White people in a position of privilege can still do whatever they please with little consequence.’ Of course, no example is given of this assertion because no example exists.
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December 6, 2014 9:06pm
waikatogirl

Harriet: No government should be allowed to charge you EXTRA – for NOT providing the service!!!!

***
We all pay taxes on things we don’t use. That is the way of our society. Private education is not special.
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December 6, 2014 9:06pm
Rufus

“Not really. Most people don’t become atheist through any damascene moment….rather they have the misfortune to be born into atheist families. From babyhood they are brainwashed until the hocus pocus is embedded into the core of their psyche. At that point atheismis anything BUT voluntary & the zombies will obey on command.

Nasska – so why aren’t you religious today?

You admitted you went to a church boarding school and suffered (oh, how you suffered, poor wee mite) indoctrination.

I suggest you used your free will.

It is voluntary, you may leave at any time.

You obviously don’t know may Christians, or how they became Christian. The majority, the vast majority, I know did have a “damascus” moment and went from unbelieving to believing.
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December 6, 2014 9:07pm
nasska

…” The majority, the vast majority, I know did have a “damascus” moment and went from unbelieving to believing.”….

A bad shipment of LSD? 🙂
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December 6, 2014 9:09pm
nasska

Although I went to a church boarding school it was because my parents thought it a better alternative to the borstal they were certain I would end up in. My mother only went along with religious crap because it was the social clique of the 50’s & the old man left instructions that he should be farewelled at the RSA.

Free will came easily to me.
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December 6, 2014 9:15pm
Rufus

It must be hard to carry your burden. All that hatred for something you clearly don’t understand.
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December 6, 2014 9:20pm
mikenmild

I doubt nasska will be too worried about being the subject of sanctimonious pity.
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December 6, 2014 9:22pm
Nostradamus

Rowan:

Rowan (2,558 comments) says:
December 6th, 2014 at 2:42 pm

Muggins
Nostradamus will be exceedingly disappointed with you if you are trying to take his position as kiwiblogs resident trap door spider!

This is my first comment on this thread, Rowan, so I don’t know why you brought me into your debate with Michael. Please read this comment, Rowan, and let me know if you wish to move on from our previous disagreements.
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December 6, 2014 9:22pm
publicwatchdog

Is this STILL the view of Cameron SHEEPISH Slater – (in my view – a gutless wonder) – when it comes to defending citizens and ratepayers’ LAWFUL rights to ‘open, transparent and democratically accountable’ local government?

Probably – given that he was NOT an opponent of the Auckland Council $upercity, before the John Key led National/ACT Government legislatively forced it upon us, over riding the public’s LAWFUL right to a binding vote.

http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2014/10/chuck-street/

CHUCK HER OUT ON THE STREET

by Cameron Slater on October 10, 2014 at 10:30am

It is accepted that, although reluctantly, we must pay our rates and our taxes.

We have elected governments, local and national, to administer our affairs and they levy taxes in order to do that.

Reasonable people comply, pay their rates and contribute to the cleaning of our streets, removal of sewerage and waste water, rubbish collection and a multitude of other services.

It could be argued that some of those services provided by the city are silly or out of step, but until we get ourselves a fiscally conservative council then we must pay the rates that are levied. That is what contributing citizens do.

Penny Bright is the exact opposite of that. She refuses to pay her rates, and as a consequence her home is now forfeit.
The council is now moving to sell her property. Personally I would have cut off the services that she refuses to pay for, including the power which has to run through city streets to get to her house.

But not to worry, she has David “tainted” Fisher on her side.

It’s a settler-style, four-bedroom house with wooden rafters and north-facing decks which might soon be up for sale and in the overheated Auckland property market, it’s likely to excite bids well over $800,000.

However, it will come with a catch – one extremely unhappy owner who is refusing to be dragged out of her home.

Welcome to the base of activist Penny Bright, 60, a one-woman rates revolution who owes Auckland Council and its ratepayers $33,288.

Today is the first day the Auckland District Court can seize her home, at the council’s request, to pay the rates bill. It has a 2011 valuation of $530,000.

Ms Bright, who bought the house in 1990 for $144,500, is the first of eight property owners the council is preparing to take action against. They are the front end of 179 ratepayers under review for $2.5 million in outstanding rates.

All could potentially lose their homes and businesses through a process which begins with the Auckland Council applying to the Auckland District Court.

If the house is successfully sold, the council will deduct the rates arrears from the purchase price and hand the balance to Ms Bright.

They should also be taking back the legal expenses associated with recovering her outstanding rates.

Council chief executive Stephen Town said through a spokesman:”The sale process is an absolute last resort where a ratepayer refuses to respond to repeated efforts to pay, and it is something we do very reluctantly.”

Mr Town has to personally approve each application to seize houses which come on the hit list after at least two years of rates arrears and owing the lower of either $5000 or more than 1 per cent of the property value.

Ms Bright is first up because of the length of her debt – council records date her non-payment back to 2008.

Ms Bright says she is being picked on by Auckland Council. A hard-boiled activist from Springbok Tour days, she is the council’s loudest and most determined critic.

Her campaign against the council is linked to her refusal to pay rates – Ms Bright says she won’t pay a penny until the council discloses how much is paid to private contractors.

Sorry, but you don’t get to pick and choose the conditions under which you will pay your rates.

Sell her house, evict her, and biff her and her possessions onto the street…and then get ready to do it to the next house she buys, because she still won’t pay her rates on the next one.

Then she can run off to “Tainted” Fisher and cry another river of tears.

Penny Bright is a bludger, expecting the rest of Auckland to pick up the slack.

– NZ Herald, the paper that advocates for bludgers, wastrels, criminals and crooks.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________

No – I’m a consistent and persistent anti-corruption ‘whistle-blower’ – making a stand in defence of ‘open, transparent and democratically accountable’ local government – that cannot be ignored.

I wonder what is the view of Cameron Slater, on Auckland Council failing to comply with the statutory requirements of s.45 of the Local Government (Rating) Act 2002, regarding the information that MUST be provided on Rates Assessment Notices?

“Judge Sharp said Ms Bright would have a “substantial argument of defence” if she was correct. She said every ratepayer had an obligation to pay rates but the imperative did not “crystallise” until council fulfilled its obligation.”

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/david-fisher/news/article.cfm?a_id=191&objectid=11368392

“……………………………..

She last paid rates in 2007, refusing to do so since because she says council doesn’t adequately explain where the money goes.

She told Judge Mary Beth Sharp the council was in breach of the law when it came to the rates assessment sent to her and every other ratepayer.

She said the law demanded the council explain exactly what it was spending rates money on.

“What I’m looking for is the rule of law to be equally applied. What’s fundamental here is these pieces of paper the council sends out to ratepayers all over the region – they need to be legally compliant.”

Auckland Council’s lawyer, James Hassall, said there was “no dispute the rates are owing”. He also said there was compliance with rules obliging the council to explain how rating money was spent.

Judge Sharp said Ms Bright would have a “substantial argument of defence” if she was correct. She said every ratepayer had an obligation to pay rates but the imperative did not “crystallise” until council fulfilled its obligation.

She also told the council its inaccurate assessment of Ms Bright’s rates didn’t give her “confidence with the integrity of the judgment”.

The court hearing rejected Ms Bright’s application to have the matter sent to the High Court to find whether council rating assessments were lawful. Judge Sharp said the District Court could decide on the matter as part of Ms Bright’s attempt to have the judgments against her overturned.

Having lost the attempt to have the case adjourned, it was put off anyway after documents Ms Bright provided to the court were challenged by council as being incomplete.

Council chief financial officer Kevin Ramsay said the errors with Ms Bright’s bill were due to it being a “complex case”.

________________________________________________________________________________________________

Penny Bright
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December 6, 2014 9:24pm
waikatogirl

Thanks Jack185. No to Twitter, I’m slow to take up new stuff. KB only 🙂
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December 6, 2014 9:24pm
Rufus

Mikenmild – projecting much? Who the hell are you to say I’m being sanctimonious?

Is this the word for the weekend or something? Do we all get points for using it?

You’re worse than WG.

I actually quite like Nasska. I just feel sorry for him.
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December 6, 2014 9:25pm
Griff

Rufus
We dont hate god whackers
We hate it when they try to force their delusions on us
If you keep it to your self you will not get flack about it from any atheist on this blog.
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December 6, 2014 9:28pm
Sponge

Penny @5:48

Would you be satisfied if the Council never used any outside contractors at all (at what would, without a shadow of doubt, be a monumental cost)? Also do you think that it would result in “transparency” if this were to happen?

Genuine questions.
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December 6, 2014 9:28pm
dad4justice

“If you keep it to your self you will not get flack about it from any atheist on this blog.”

God bless you to gripp!@!@!
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December 6, 2014 9:31pm
Rufus

Griff – define “force”

Sharing our views and opinions =/= “force”.

Ditto for your AGW religion mate.
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December 6, 2014 9:33pm
Griff

D4j
hows it hanging?
3mm down and limp as always ?
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December 6, 2014 9:33pm
Nostradamus

I know some Kiwiblog readers love their cricket.

I’ve been thinking (in a post-Phillip Hughes era) about sportsmanship in cricket – or, to be more accurate, when sportsmanship took a back seat.

This is my pick – an ugly spat between Javed Miandad v Dennis Lillee.

Can anyone else think of a worse incident?
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December 6, 2014 9:36pm
Griff

Ditto for your AGW religion mate.
If you wanna give me shit about science go ahead.
But it ain’t a religion its based on epigraphical evidence not faith.
it just makes me think of you as even more of a primitive
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December 6, 2014 9:37pm
dad4justice

I pray for you gripp you twisted nutbar.
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December 6, 2014 9:39pm
Longknives

Nostradamus-

This was a pretty disgraceful moment

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zgvjC9WUCs
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December 6, 2014 9:41pm
Rufus

Griff – define “Science” and the “scientific method”

Now see how that definition marries up with prophecy. Because that’s what you’re doing. Prophesying doom, “the end is nigh” and all that.

In old times they were filthy, unkempt, crazy old men (mostly). Today they wear turtlenecks and attend cocktail functions.
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December 6, 2014 9:41pm
publicwatchdog

Contracting out to the private sector, local and central government services that were formerly provided ‘in-house’ – without any ‘cost-benefit analysis’ proving that is/was a more ‘cost-effective’ use of ratepayer or taxpayer public money, is, in my considered opinion CORPORATE WELFARE – end of story.

How can any form of ‘cost-benefit’ analysis be carried out, unless ‘the books are open’, and the public are ‘shown the money’ so we can ‘follow the dollar’?

Is this why there has been such a draconian attempt to ‘neck-stamp’ me, as an anti-corruption ‘whistle-blower?

Because certain vested interests do NOT want the public to be able to ‘follow the dollar’ and see exactly who is benefiting from this Auckland Council ‘$upercity for the 1%’?

Do your own – simple ‘cost-benefit analysis’.

Since the Auckland Council ‘$upercity’ – have YOUR rates, and charges for water and wastewater services, (now provided regionally by Watercare Services Ltd, as a giant Metrowater in which we also had no vote) – gone UP or DOWN?

If all this ‘competitive’ contracting out, was truly so efficient, wouldn’t you expect rates to go down – not up?

It’s commonsense folks – think about it ……

Penny Bright

http://www.pennybright4mayor.org.nz
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December 6, 2014 9:42pm
Nookin

Given that we will not be spared vast tracts of cut-and-pasted commentary on NZs trial of the century, can someone please link to an Auckland City rates assessment notice so we can see what it does say?

It seems that maybe even the court has not seen one.
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December 6, 2014 9:46pm
nasska

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ieignz53sagy4h3/Cuckoo%207.jpg?dl=0
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December 6, 2014 9:47pm
Shawn Herles

Mikenmild – projecting much? Who the hell are you to say I’m being sanctimonious?

Yeah, that one is hilarious given that mikey can be one of the most sanctimonious posters on KB. Most of his contributions, not just to the religious, but to everyone on the Right, are just one liners dripping with sneering and sanctimony towards anyone who does not vote Labour.

Most of the time it’s worthwhile just ignoring him. Conversations with mikey tend to be pointless and one sided.

Also, don’t be fooled if he asks a question, and feigns sincere interest. It’s most often just mikey looking for an opportunity to take a dump on you or your views.
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December 6, 2014 9:51pm
Nostradamus

Longknives:

Yes – the run out wasn’t in keeping with the spirit of the game – although I suppose you could argue that the rules were on McCullum’s side.

I think the Lillee/Miandad incident was worse though. Lillee kicked Miandad. Miandad would’ve thrown his bat at Lillee – but didn’t because the umpire had already got between them to try and diffuse the tension.
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December 6, 2014 9:52pm
Sponge

Penny @5:48 and now @9:42

Would you be satisfied if the Council never used any outside contractors at all (at what would, without a shadow of doubt, be a monumental cost)? Also do you think that it would result in “transparency” if this were to happen?

Genuine questions.
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December 6, 2014 9:53pm
waikatogirl

Nasska: Not really. Most people don’t become religious through any damascene moment….rather they have the misfortune to be born into religious families. From babyhood they are brainwashed until the hocus pocus is embedded into the core of their psyche. At that point religion is anything BUT voluntary & the zombies will obey on command.

***
Don’t know if that is correct. I went to church while young, but as far back as I can remember religion didn’t seem believable. Maybe I was just cynical from an early age?! 😉
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December 6, 2014 9:54pm
cha

Because it’s Saturday night.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOB7GY1ICwo
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December 6, 2014 9:56pm
Sponge

Penny,

“If all this ‘competitive’ contracting out, was truly so efficient, wouldn’t you expect rates to go down – not up?”

Not if you have a mayor who is almost as insane as you. He is desperate to throw ratepayers (so you are not affected by any of this anyway) money at anything that appeals to him. His most grandiose scheme being the, at best marginal, rail proposal.
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December 6, 2014 9:57pm
Griff

😆
science matey like the magic shit in your computer is not prophesy its based on evidence and follows laws.
We can measure the effects of co2 in an atmosphere and infra red radiation in a lab.
Even better you can do it at home with simple stuff easily purchased from the local hardware store.
All you need to prove the greenhouse effect is a heat lamp two jars,two thermometers a source of co2 and some elctrickity
place thermometers in jars add co2 to one and turn on the heat lamps.
The temperature in the one with co2 will rise faster because co2 absorbs the radiation .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwtt51gvaJQ
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December 6, 2014 9:57pm
Shawn Herles

Cha, I see your Them, and raise you a Van Morrison. 🙂

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvS2OtG2SHc
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December 6, 2014 10:02pm
Shawn Herles

Night all. Play nice children.
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December 6, 2014 10:03pm
Rowan

Sorry Nostra
Yes time to move on, Since we decided on the previous thread to be grown ups then Michael can permanantly replace you as KBs resident trap door spider, since he was trolling the thread waiting for an opportunity to bite, see my 11.17 post.
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December 6, 2014 10:05pm
Rufus

Griff – fiddling with predictive computer models using very, very select data to make the outcome fit a pre-determined narrative is about as useful as reading tea leaves, or scrying entrails.

We know this . much about how it all works.

They can’t even give us weather forecast a few weeks out with 100% accuracy, but somehow know what is going on with THE WHOLE WORLD’S CLIMATE SYSTEM?

And they’re telling us to trust them, and asking us to suffer, just to make Gaia happy?

What do you do when the model doesn’t match reality? You adjust the model. You do not carry on spouting the same nonsense.

AGW = Faith-based Griff. Religion.
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December 6, 2014 10:10pm
Rufus

http://www.creators.com/editorial_cartoons/2/12058_thumb.jpg
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December 6, 2014 10:14pm
waikatogirl

Rufus, what Griff said!
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December 6, 2014 10:15pm
Rufus

WG – so you’ve swapped one religion for another. God for Gaia. Hope it works out for you.
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December 6, 2014 10:17pm
Nostradamus

Rowan:

Thanks for your constructive response.

There are various disagreements between Kiwiblog readers (of which the ongoing flamewar between Shawn and Redbaiter is the most recent example).

I think flamewars are boring for other Kiwiblog readers, so at least for my part, I’m happy that you and I can move on.
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December 6, 2014 10:19pm
cha

Shawn, Them was Morrison’s band.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Them_%28band%29
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December 6, 2014 10:20pm
Rufus

I don’t really care what you believe Griff. Just wanted to point out that I believe my beliefs as strongly (stronger?) as you do yours.

I believe, but can’t prove to you, what will happen in the future (Jesus returns, heaven/hell).

You’re in exactly the same position, though you believe something different (AGW=doom).

My beliefs shape my world-view, my meta-narrative, where my interests lie, and my opinions on day-to-day issues. As your beliefs in AGW do for you.

Shame you won’t give me the courtesy of treating me how you want to be treated:

You demand I keep my beliefs to myself – yet you blather on and on ad naseum about AGW. You fail to see the double standard.

Carry on.
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December 6, 2014 10:23pm
Griff

😆

Try actually reading science from scientists not wingnut blogs and msm story’s and you might just lift the veil of ignorance .
start here
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2008/11/faq-on-climate-models/
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2009/01/faq-on-climate-models-part-ii/

A little history
http://www.aip.org/history/climate/timeline.htm
1824
Fourier calculates that the Earth would be far colder if it lacked an atmosphere. =>Simple models

1859
Tyndall discovers that some gases block infrared radiation. He suggests that changes in the concentration of the gases could bring climate change. =>Other gases

1896
Arrhenius publishes first calculation of global warming from human emissions of CO2. =>Simple models

1897
Chamberlin produces a model for global carbon exchange including feedbacks. =>Simple models
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December 6, 2014 10:23pm
cha

Ginger Rogers sings the We’re in the Money refrain – in pig Latin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUBftlqlF3w
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December 6, 2014 10:25pm
Inandout

ngatimozart: Your women didn’t prostitute themselves for guns from what I have read from early colonial accounts, they lay willingly with the newcomers. Tribal justice was also quick and cruel, without a hint of compassion. It is a pity that the early written accounts of Maori tribal life seem to have disappeared from library shelves, but they did paint an interesting portrait of customs that we today would find distasteful. A common practice observed was the village kuri (dog) would be tied up and then poked with sticks for hours on end by all and sundry. Another observation was that Maori children were often left to their own devices, and rarely chastised; that custom seems to have been passed down to the present generation. Farming out offspring to childless couples was also a common practice back then, and even today ‘aunties’ often end up with unwanted kids. The modern ‘cleansed’ official accounts of early Maori life paint a rosy picture of a noble savage people; nothing could be further from the truth.
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December 6, 2014 10:28pm
Rufus

cha – that’s freakin impressive.
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December 6, 2014 10:29pm
mikenmild

Please cite an ‘official’ modern account that paints a rosy picture of the ‘noble savage’.
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December 6, 2014 10:30pm
Rowan

Nostra
True
If you look at my original comment, I was just acknowledging David and Liz’s happy occasion, Trolls like Michael choose to use this as an opportunity to hijack the thread, and use it to rant. Its much like the way Kea turns GD into a religious hate war every time he is here.
Speaking of that where is the psychotic parrot thesedays?
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December 6, 2014 10:34pm