General Debate 16 March 2019

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tas

Gun control?

That is going to be a big question in the coming months.
How did this guy get so many weapons? Why were authorities not aware of this? Can you even buy an AR-15 legally in NZ? Would restrictions have helped?
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March 16, 2019 8:01am
- SGA
  
  Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
  And until those questions are answered, it will be difficult to have a sensible conversation.
  
  On the other hand, I expect that the “Dirty Harry” fantasists will be along shortly telling us to arm every man, woman, and child.
  
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  March 16, 2019 8:06am
- Swifty
  
  ‘Can you even buy an AR-15 legally in NZ?’
  
  Yep.
  
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  March 16, 2019 8:15am
  - MrsAnnie
    
    Yes, it is very straight forward MrAnnie tells me, an AR15 like the one pictured is a Class A? weapon as it has a special stock. Thousands have been sold in the last few years. Anyone who can buy a 22 or shotgun for ducks can get one from about $1300. The magazines are restricted though. One was a drum that has up to 50 bullets? MrAnnie says they are very rear in NZ and thinks they would have been purchased through the USA. The basic weapon is easy to get, but this has essentially been modified for the purpose which is plain illegal.
    
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    March 16, 2019 8:41am
  - KevOB
    
    Are they used for rabbit shooting or deer? There seems to be no legitimate need for ultra powerful military weapon to be available to the public.
    
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    March 16, 2019 1:49pm
    - Jack5
      
      Two new bits on the shooter …
      
      He was a member of the Bruce Rifle Club, at Milburn, near Milton and about 48km from Dunedin.
      
      The vice-president Scott Williams confirmed to the Otago Daily Times that Tarrant is a member of the club, and practised at its range.
      
      Williams said Tarrant seemed “as normal as anyone else” and had “certainly” never mentioned anything about his beliefs about muslims.
      
      https://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/terror-accused-was-member-south-otago-rifle-club
      
      AND:
      
      Britain’s Daily Mail has a front page photograph showing Tarrant in court and giving what it calls a white supremacist signal with his right hand.
      
      https://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/index.html
      
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      March 16, 2019 1:51pm
- Nibbles
  
  Why so unnecessarily rude, Padriv? It’s not on, mate.
  
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  March 16, 2019 9:16am
  - Padriv Ustoev
    
    Yeah the cliches are coming from me.
    Oh my god! He had an AR. Black gun bad!
    He had an assault long gun!
    
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    March 16, 2019 9:57am
  - Padriv Ustoev
    
    Nibbles, are you the speech police? Do I need to check with you before I post anything on the internet? Incase someone’s feefees get hurt?
    
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    March 16, 2019 9:59am
    - Nibbles
      
      I believe, Jack, that it was Padriv who kicked off the ad hominem attack.
      
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      March 16, 2019 12:31pm
  - Padriv Ustoev
    
    Tas.
    Go read up on false equivalence and circular argument. After that look at your argument and report back to me where you are using false equivalence and where you have circular logic. But before that it’s a waste of time for me.
    
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    March 16, 2019 10:11am
  - rightoverlabour
    
    @Tas Gun control is all well if and only if no one has access to arms. Farmers in New Zealand have legitimate requirements for firearms. Unfortunately, farmers’ guns get stolen by criminals so they now have guns. So eventually the only people without guns are unarmed civilians and terrorists prefer those as targets to any other group. Arm civilians and the potential terrorist attacks will be reduced. The alternative is the slaughter of innocents….
    
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    March 16, 2019 10:42am
  - the deity formerly known as nigel6888
    
    Look, Padriv may be a little short, but he has a point.
    
    This is a well rehearsed playbook. The left won’t let the victims blood dry before they try and impose more controls on the law abiding.
    
    The PM and her mouth Helen Clark (or is it the other way round) have already come out and stated they will change gun laws.
    
    Here’s a hint. Killing people is already illegal, and wrong. “making it harder for criminals to get guns” actually meas restricting the law-abiding. Its that thing about criminals – they are criminal.
    
    As it happens, NZ has very strong gun laws. Funny thing is, they are not being enforced.
    
    Check the sentencing records (its on the Justice Dept website) Over the last couple of decades Judges have deliberately reduced the penalties imposed for illegal possession and use of firearms. Police won’t even attend break-ins where firearms are stolen.
    
    What will more laws do to the criminal drop-kicks, and their enablers in Parliament and on the Bench?
    
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    March 16, 2019 12:59pm
  - IC5000
    
    I want the freedom to kick cunts like you in the balls. Tell me why my freedom should be curtailed because my right to that freedom is superior to your freedom to be free from pain.
    
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    March 16, 2019 11:03pm
- tas
  
  Let’s not rehash these retarded gun control arguments. It’s not 50BCE. The government is not afraid of gun owners, because the military has much more powerful weapons.
  
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  March 16, 2019 9:45am
- tas
  
  Islamic terrorists in the UK are performing attacks with cars and knives, but no guns. Why do you think that is?
  
  Gun control isn’t 100% effective, but it clearly can successfully stop bad guys getting guns in many cases.
  
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  March 16, 2019 9:53am
  - Shaun the Sheep
    
    No Tas, gun control laws stop law abiding people from getting guns. If you are willing to break the law there’s always a way.
    
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    March 16, 2019 11:15am
  - tas
    
    Shaun, how do you explain the spate of car/knife attacks in the UK?
    
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    March 16, 2019 11:17am
- Universal Smith
  
  Ardern, surrounded by armed goons, just said she is coming for other peoples guns.
  
  This was one of the goals of the shooter – tighter gun laws in NZ & USA. Ardern committed to achieving that goal for him. Next will be attacks on freedom of expression…
  
  The shooter has won.
  
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  March 16, 2019 10:01am
  - Howdy
    
    I disagree Universal.
    I don’t think the shooter thought through the repercussions of his actions on ordinary people.
    Nor on NZ society.
    Definately not on enabling both the Progressives and the Islamists.
    
    The shooter thought he was a hero.
    When he wasn’t.
    
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    March 16, 2019 10:49am
    - waikatogirl
      
      I think we can safely say the shooter and his group are not the brightest bulbs in the box.
      
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      March 16, 2019 12:02pm
    - dime
      
      you need to read read the idiots manifesto, this is exactly what he wanted
      
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      March 16, 2019 12:10pm
      - KevOB
        
        The gun laws are small beer compared to the expressed hate and his determination to claim his fame.
        
        We need speedy justice not a wait for a 6 -12 month trial. At least one person has livecasted his actions and these should be sufficient for any jury and for a Judge to direct accordingly. The whole process should be over in a day from appearance to an extended prison sentence.
        
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        March 16, 2019 2:24pm
      - Rachael Membery
        
        Agreed, must have had a problem with NZERs too.
        
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        March 17, 2019 2:08pm
    - Universal Smith
      
      Howdy, In fact he did and provided great detail of the desired effect on others. I am basing that on evidence, not politics or ideology.
      
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      March 16, 2019 12:36pm
  - Lance
    
    The ‘shooter’ massacred innocent Muslims because he wanted tighter gun control????????
    
    What a lot of crap
    
    That is beyond idiotic thinking
    
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    March 16, 2019 10:49am
    - Universal Smith
      
      Lance, yes he wanted tighter gun laws here and in the USA. It was one of his goals. Read the manifesto and stop making shit up to support your emotive bias. It is not helping.
      
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      March 16, 2019 12:38pm
  - ztev
    
    No one before and since is suggesting the police dont have weapons to protect VIPs or muslim worshipers.
    
    there is no equivalence to removing guns expressely designed to kill multiple people from the ‘ordinary public’- which is how maniacs get them.
    Some gun owners who onsold to this guy will find out the full force of ant terrorist legislation against them
    
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    March 16, 2019 11:26am
  - simpleton1
    
    An idiotic mish mash.
    
    Finally, to create conflict between the two ideologies within the United States on the ownership of firearms in order to further the social, cultural, political and racial divide within the United states.
    This conflict over the 2nd amendment and the attempted removal of firearms rights will ultimately result in a civil war that will eventually balkanize the US along political, cultural and, most importantly, racial lines. This balkanization of the US will not only result in the racial separation of the people within the United States ensuring the future of the White race on the North American continent, but also ensuring the death of the “melting pot” pipe dream. ……
    
    Why did you choose to use firearms?
    
    I could have chosen any weapons or means.A TATP filled rental van. Household flour, a method of dispersion and an ignition source.A ballpeen hammer and a wooden shield.Gas,fire,vehicular attacks,plane attacks, any means were available. I had the will and I had the resources.
    
    I chose firearms for the affect it would have on social discourse, the extra media coverage they would provide and the affect it could have on the politics of United states and thereby the political situation of the world. The US is torn into many factions by its second amendment, along state, social, cultural and, most importantly, racial lines. With enough pressure the left wing within the United states will seek to abolish the second amendment, and the right wing within the US will see this as an attack on their very freedom and liberty.
    This attempted abolishment of rights by the left will result in a dramatic polarization of the people in the United States and eventually a fracturing of the US along cultural and racial lines.
    
    Why did you choose New Zealand as a place to attack?
    
    New Zealand was not the original choice for attack, I only arrived to New Zealand to live temporarily whilst I planned and trained, but I soon found out that New Zealand was as target rich of an environment as anywhere else in the West. Secondly an attack in New Zealand would bring to attention the truth of the assault on our civilization, that no where in the world was safe, the invaders were in all of our lands, even in the remotest areas of the world and that there was no where left to go that was safe and free from mass immigration. ….
    ……. ……. ………
    
    Won’t your attack result in calls for the removal of gun rights from Whites in the United states?
    Yes, that is the plan all along,
    you said you would fight to protect your rights and the constitution,
    well soon will come the time.
    
    Won’t your attack result in calls for the removal of gun rights in the New Zealand?
    
    The gun owners of New Zealand are a beaten, miserable bunch of baby boomers, who have long since given up the fight.When was the last time they won increased rights? Their loss was inevitable.I just accelerated things a bit. They had long since lost their cities, take a look at Auckland.
    
    An absolute murderous nihilist shit stirrer that has got academia, politicians, media or writhing in a frenzy to his way of thinking to mob democracy to crash through to anarchy.
    Many blind alleys, false leads, in his way of thinking.
    
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    March 16, 2019 11:56am
- MrsAnnie
  
  In London they want to register Knives, some of the worst terrorism in Europe has used cars, trucks and vans. Where there is a nut job there is a way.
  
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  March 16, 2019 10:08am
- EAD_THREE
  
  we should be asking ourselves why a person wanted to do so and why they were willing to do so
  
  It is hard to type anything without the risk of appearing to be a sympathiser with terrorism, however, I was watching the TV news special last half an hour or more, and there has been quite a bit of talk about how the ideology of this man has led to these deaths.
  
  Nowhere, not once, has there been any self reflection of what may be going wrong with their own ideology and policies – an ideology and policies that have lead to the untold thousands of of deaths and rapes all over the Western World at the hands of people they have imported as part of that world view.
  
  I cannot condone the actions, but I can understand the scenario that drives somebody to something like this.
  
  We are pretty much blockaded from any lever of change. We cannot spread common sense themes in schools, we cannot get our messages out in the press, radio or TV.
  
  We cannot compete in an electoral system that’s stacked against us in all ways possible, every institution and organisation is purposefully acting in ways to prevent ‘peaceful’ changes to our fortunes being made.
  
  So, as our lands get taken over – albeit by many ‘good’ people alongside the bad – just what are people going to do about it? Where do they go to? How can the “bigger picture” ever be changed in a realistic and lasting fashion?
  
  With no options left, with even social media and the internet closing in and closing dissent down, what can people expect to happen?
  
  Again, I cannot condone it and I don’t think it is the right way at all, but I can understand what could happen if you back people into a corner with no obvious way out.
  
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  March 16, 2019 10:09am
  - starboard
    
    Well said.
    
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    March 16, 2019 10:13am
  - ztev
    
    “We cannot compete in an electoral system that’s stacked against us in all ways ”
    
    Rubbish. here we have MMP with 5% threshold, which could 4% ( which is say 110,000 votes)
    Australia has a Senate where people can be elected with little dirct votes but 4th or less preferences of others. Each state has 10 senators, so even easier in small state like Tasmania.
    
    The reality the electoral is system is not designed to ‘help’ fringe groups with at most 10K of votes
    
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    March 16, 2019 10:36am
- Howdy
  
  I would disagree CB.
  
  If we lived in a society that valued discourse, respected others having a different viewpoint and encouraged them to voice it and listened.
  
  True free speech not just allowing what we want and definitely not putting down and demonising that which we don’t agree with.
  
  A true democratic society where everyone is encouraged to be involved from school to dinner table to letters to the Editor (the Compost doesn’t).
  
  That would go a long way to ameliorating the siloing of let down, emotion, anger, hopelessness and worthlessness.
  
  For the perpetrators felt all those things and no doubt the siloing of their information sources excentuated it.
  
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  March 16, 2019 10:44am
- madamezucchininz
  
  …..he apparently had a gun license……obtained in 2017…..five guns were used in this atrocity…..two of them being semi-automatic…..
  
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  March 16, 2019 11:02am
- Dazzaman
  
  You know the right crims, you can get anything.
  
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  March 16, 2019 11:26am
mjw

“No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friend’s or of thine own were: any man’s death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bells tolls; it tolls for thee.” – John Donne
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March 16, 2019 8:05am
PhilBest

One of the most important illuminating bits of coverage has come from, of all places, a Guardian journalist.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/15/rightwing-extremist-wrote-manifesto-before-livestreaming-christchurch-shooting

…Tarrant says the attack had been planned for two years and the Christchurch location was scoped out three months in advance.

His choice of weapon – firearms – was designed to gain maximum publicity.

“I chose firearms for the affect it would have on social discourse, the extra media coverage they would provide and the affect it could have on the politics of United States and thereby the political situation of the world,” he writes.

New Zealand was not the original choice for the attack but Tarrant wanted to send a message that “that no where in the world was safe”.

“I only arrived to New Zealand to live temporarily whilst I planned and trained, but I soon found out that New Zealand was as target rich of an environment as anywhere else in the West,” he writes.
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March 16, 2019 8:05am
- Muttonbird
  
  Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
  Interesting. During the cold war I thought New Zealand was vulnerable to states wanting to make the point that they could strike anywhere.
  
  Then after 9/11 I thought NZ would be vulnerable to Muslim extremest cells wanting to make the point they could strike anywhere.
  
  Yesterday it turns out white supremacist cells used New Zealand to make the point they could strike anywhere.
  
  No one saw it coming because we weren’t looking.
  
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  March 16, 2019 8:41am
  - PhilBest
    
    Well put! (for once). But I remember now, something we tend to forget, because it is one of the many things that didn’t happen – way back at the time of the Sydney Olympics, our security agencies commendably busted a Jihadi cell that was based in Auckland deliberately to escape detection by the Aussies. They intended to attack the Olympics, traveling in at the time it was on.
    
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    March 16, 2019 8:46am
  - niggly
    
    My bad, “pro-indigenous supremacists” wasn’t worded well, I meant those radical elements that want sovereignty to revert back to the way it was pre-1840 (and remove the rule of law as we know it).
    
    Whilst it is refereed to as “pro Māori sovereignty” in a general sense, I’m loathe to use that phrase because it is such a generalisation and can be viewed as negative towards most Maori whom don’t subscribe to such extreme views and just want to get on with life like (mostly) everyone else.
    
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    March 16, 2019 11:19am
- David Garrett
  
  I am unsure whether there was one shooter or two…the cops have arrested THREE people (the fourth arrest was apparently unconnected) in connection with the murders, but media are only reporting that one man, identified as Brenton Tarrant, are appearing in court today.
  
  Yesterday it was reported that the Linwood shootings happened “about 15 minutes” after the those at Hagley Ave…I don’t believe you could drive – especially on a Friday afternoon – from one place to the other in 15 minutes.
  
  Does anyone have a clear picture on this issue? What charges do the other two arrested face? Is one of them a woman?
  
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  March 16, 2019 9:10am
  - David Garrett
    
    Just checked this whole thread, and others are asking the same question. I guess we will be told in the fullness of time.
    
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    March 16, 2019 9:20am
    - holysheet
      
      Or not depending what they want to tell you
      
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      March 16, 2019 9:40am
      - David Garrett
        
        Holy: Jesus man…conspiracy theories already? I am very confident of the authorities providing full information, although that clearly will take some time in what must still be a rather confused picture.
        
        Just as I type this I find myself thinking: “49 people dead…here in NZ..unbelievable” 14 more people than killed by that other Aussie maniac Martin Bryant at Port Arthur 20 odd years ago. Minor point of interest: one of Bryant’s weapons was the same as that apparently used yesterday.
        
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        March 16, 2019 9:47am
      - Jack5
        
        For a minute, let’s lighten the discussion on a sad day. Given that conspiracy theories are rising already …
        
        Three conspiracy theorists walk into a bar.
        You can’t tell me that’s just a coincidence.
        
        AND:
        
        The Stephies believe Einstein was killed by the Mafia because he knew too much.
        
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        March 16, 2019 12:50pm
  - CharlieBrown
    
    Whats your view on naming the man? What do you think of the argument of not giving this guy the attention he desires? Not attacking you for doing so – just curious what your view on it is. In principal I don’t want to but its almost as futile as NZ taking a stand against global warming when the big polluters won’t.
    
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    March 16, 2019 9:37am
    - WaveyDavey
      
      That’s the approach that the UK government took with the IRA – “starve them of the oxygen of publicity.” That worked well. Not.
      
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      March 16, 2019 9:43am
      - CharlieBrown
        
        Lifes just not fair sometime, some people are evil and we won’t be able to stop them. The only people at fault here are the people that were involved in and pushing for this to occur. Murder like this is something that even the majority of racist deplorables on the left and right wouldn’t commit.
        
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        March 16, 2019 9:51am
    - Howdy
      
      Slightly different CB, AGW doesn’t exist as the Al Gores have postulated. That is a shell game for money, Funding and wealth redistribution.
      The Sun controls our environment aka Fred Singers book – Global warming every 1500 yrs.
      
      As for naming him, I think Sunlight is the best defence for a democracy. Providing it applies to everyone.
      
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      March 16, 2019 10:53am
  - noskire
    
    The video that Tarrant streamed is about 17 minutes. He enters the mosque about 6.45 minutes into the stream, and leaves about 7 minutes later, running over the young girl who was screaming for help that he had just shot in the head. At 15 minutes he enters Bealey Ave , so from there would be roughly another 10 minutes to the Linwood mosque.
    
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    March 16, 2019 11:16am
  - KevOB
    
    Hagley–>Linwood 15mins no problem.
    
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    March 16, 2019 2:28pm
holysheet

take your mind off the horror;

After years of complaining from my wife, I finally found the G-spot.
Turns out her sister had it all along…
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March 16, 2019 8:07am
- waikatosinger
  
  Thanks holysheet for making me laugh on this sad day.
  
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  March 16, 2019 9:57am
waikatogirl

Just seen on TV” report the Union Jack flying at half-mast for NZ in London. Quite an emotional sight!
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March 16, 2019 8:07am
- waikatogirl
  
  Of course NZ flags are at half-mast Iando. It was specifically the Union Jack on the other side of the world flying at half-mast for NZ I was commenting on. Emotion catches me like that. ?
  
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  March 16, 2019 8:32am
- Peter S
  
  I watched the press conference by the Aussie P.M. last night, and was impressed by both the content and delivery.
  While our own P.M. said many of the right things it did not resonate with me the same way.
  I have seen a few major announcements over the years, some people stood out the way the Aussie PM did yesterday, John Key, Margaret Thatcher, and (for all his other faults) George W Bush all had moments like that.
  When the GFC hit, Key did a great job of calming things and getting a sense of a common battle against the issue (regardless of whether cycle paths were a great thing, it gave a common purpose).
  I struggle to see our current incumbent being able to project that same type of reassuring competence and calm. Winston, probably, English, Clark, Bolger, Bridges, Collins, yes.
  Maybe she will rise to the challenge, it would lift her in my estimation if she does.
  
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  March 16, 2019 9:21am
  - Nibbles
    
    I thought she did OK delivering her scripted statement. Almost pulled it off, in fact. But when the questions started coming she immediately descended into the most appalling waffle, and I was begging her just to shut up. A simple admission that she didn’t know, and would be asking the same questions herself, would have been entirely sufficient under the immediate circumstances, and far more admirable.
    
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    March 16, 2019 9:31am
    - Chuck Bird
      
      She is calling for a change to the gun laws already. Would I be unfair to say that is political?
      
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      March 16, 2019 10:15am
      - Universal Smith
        
        Ardern has done a terrible job and is now using this to push her authoritarian political agenda. A truly evil and vile little woman.
        
        [DPF: Strike 1. The killer is evil and vile. Jacinda Ardern is neither of those and the lesson from Friday is we need less hate and vitriol]
        
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        March 16, 2019 10:18am
      - Howdy
        
        No expected, she would be seen to being doing something…..
        
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        March 16, 2019 11:02am
      - ABS
        
        Not only that 4Chan is being geoblocked by all ISPs in New Zealand.
        Part 1 – take their guns
        Part 2 – restrict their speech
        
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        March 16, 2019 11:50am
      - sam green
        
        That is significant ABS. Those 4chan scrotes need the boot.
        
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        March 16, 2019 2:27pm
    - David Garrett
      
      Nibbles: Quite so.
      
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      March 16, 2019 10:29am
      - Nibbles
        
        Thank you David.
        
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        March 16, 2019 10:41am
    - Peter S
      
      I actually originally typed OK as my description too. It was just when comparing it with the Aus PM one it still felt a bit like the school prefect making the announcement not the principle.
      Still, a horrible task to have to do, so I do have sympathy.
      The country needs, and I suspect wants, to be led through this. However horrible the incident, there is actually an opportunity to break down barriers and build unity and peace out of it instead of descending into fear and mistrust, but that is going to require vision and leadership to set the direction.
      Unfortunately we need more than OK.
      
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      March 16, 2019 10:55am
      - Rachael Membery
        
        Would shedding a tear have been inappropriate? She has shed tears before?
        
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        March 16, 2019 12:42pm
mjw

I respectfully disagree about who the real victims are. Let us give our first thoughts to the dead and injured men, women and children in Christchurch. To me, they are the first victims we should be concerned about.

But I do agree that we should all try to resist a narrative of hate and violence and revenge. That will only lead to more hate and violence.
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March 16, 2019 8:14am
- EAD_THREE
  
  Hey mjw,
  
  It might take you a while to get what I said, such is the overwhelming power of the overwhelming psychological conditioning.
  
  I know as well as you do who the real victims are here – the above is a respectful, but tongue in cheek call for calm, except inverted for what the Politicians stock standard response is when the attacker/victim role (overwhelmingly) is the other way round.
  
  The only agitators for violence over the past 18 hours (which unsurprisingly given the history of Marxism/Bolshevism) have been the so called “far left”.
  
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  March 16, 2019 8:18am
starboard

After yesterdays horror and reading the comments that followed, one poster stands out as a completely nasty, bitter and twisted human.
Muttonbird.
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March 16, 2019 8:17am
- harvey wilson
  
  Why the mods won’t ban him is a mystery, hes a dishonest toxic creature who uses this platform to smear and lie . He didn’t dare say the crap he said here on the standard because he knew he’d get banned.
  
  He should have been banned a long time ago , after yesterday he should be banned permanently . Other sites have kicked him off for less .
  
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  March 16, 2019 8:25am
  - PhilBest
    
    But lefty sites like The Standard are practising a kind of “Taqiyya” by banning that kind of commentary. They can claim all they like, to disagree that “all conservatives are Nazis” etc etc but they know that real life laws will be passed by their mates in office, regarding speech, affirmative action, etc that treat conservatives as indistinguishable from Nazis.
    
    We shouldn’t fool ourselves that Muttonbird is an unrepresentative fringe loony. He’s saying what the PC establishment all think and intend to act on anyway.
    
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    March 16, 2019 8:56am
    - waikatogirl
      
      Jack Tame asked the security spokesperson this morning if it is time our rights to free speech is shut down. Scary stuff, especially if it is only one side that is deemed to need censoring.
      
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      March 16, 2019 12:24pm
      - CharlieBrown
        
        So is jack tame suggesting we should embrace fascism? Limiting free speech is fascism in action and will only move more people to the fringe and get violent.
        
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        March 16, 2019 12:30pm
  - Nibbles
    
    He and his fellows serve a certain purpose by being here, otherwise the place just becomes an echo chamber.
    
    Keep your friends close, and your enemies even closer.
    
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    March 16, 2019 9:35am
  - Rachael Membery
    
    Free speech. it reminds me daily why the principle is so important. Even more so now.
    
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    March 16, 2019 12:45pm
- unaha-closp
  
  Muttonbird spent the last election cycle railing against immigration, blaming foreigners for everything, being a xenophobe. If the mods had banned, then we would not know that MB is so full of crap.
  
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  March 16, 2019 9:03am
  - PhilBest
    
    Martin Luther opposed book-burning on the grounds that “it is better for folly to be allowed to manifest itself”.
    
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    March 16, 2019 9:09am
    - Nibbles
      
      Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake. Napoleon, I think?
      
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      March 16, 2019 9:40am
- Nibbles
  
  I agree with the general sentiment of your first paragraph, Muttonbird. The rest, I don’t know. I haven’t been posting here for very long, but it’s already apparent that you’re not exactly popular.
  
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  March 16, 2019 9:39am
- Brian Marshall
  
  Neo-Nazi’s are not right wing. They want an ethno-state and are closer to communists or fascist ideologies than conservative or free-trade libertarians. The clue is in the name NAZI. It’s the abbreviation from the German name. National socialist workers party.
  I refuse to call them far right and routinely challenge anyone who does. They are far left.
  
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  March 16, 2019 10:00am
- Salacious Crumb
  
  I have read his ‘manifesto’. He specifically states that he doesn’t identify as right wing or left wing so perhaps we can leave the whaddabouts out of it.
  
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  March 16, 2019 11:05am
- ztev
  
  Did the Cairo declaration just kill 50 people… of course not , the numbers are nada, nothing, zilch
  
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  March 16, 2019 11:15am
- ztev
  
  Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
  Its classic Alt_right
  
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  March 16, 2019 11:16am
- Pascal
  
  Except for the murder himself, who identifies strongest with Communism and Fascism. He is not a conservative. He is in favour of worker rights and aligns himself with socialism, unionism and the like.
  
  Quoted from his manifesto:
  
  —
  
  Were/are you a conservative?
  No, conservatism is corporatism in disguise, I want no part of it.
  
  Were/are you a fascist?
  Yes. For once, the person that will be called a fascist, is an actual fascist. … … consider myself an Eco-fascist by nature. The nation with the closest political and social values to my own is the People’s Republic of China.
  
  Were/are you right wing?
  Depending on the definition, sure.
  
  Were/are you left wing?
  Depending on the definition, sure.
  
  Were/are you a socialist?
  Depending on the definition. Worker ownership of the means of production? It depends on who those works are, their intents, who currently own the means of production, their intents and who currently owns the state, and its intents.
  
  —
  Key points on his graphic are:
  
  * Workers’ rights (1st)
  * Anti Imperialism (2nd)
  * Environmentalism (3rd)
  
  In fact, reading more of his writing he also strongly associated with Green, communist ideologies. As you would know, fascism (If you read further than Wikipedia) is left and right – it covers both extremes of the political spectrum. Because of his adherence to socialism, unionism, worker rights and communism I’d argue he’s probably more on left-fascism than right-fascism. In fact, given his influence Sir Oswald Mosely was considered a potential candidate for UK Labour Prime Minister in the late 1920s and early 1930s, that seems even more likely.
  
  Now, the guys is a nutter – but he’s documented his influences and reasoning to a high level of detail.
  
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  March 16, 2019 11:25am
- niggly
  
  Thank you Pascal, for the effort you put in researching and writing your insightful and thoughtful piece which IMO clears up a lot of the misconceptions that people lazily throw around etc.
  
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  March 16, 2019 3:02pm
Southern Raider

The left going out of there way to turn this tragedy into a defining moment to justify their own destructive views
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March 16, 2019 8:19am
- SGA
  
  Not just the left – we will see all sorts of people using it to feed their hobby horses. We will hear how we need more gun control from some people, and need to arm everyone from others. We will hear about how this shows the evils of islamaphobia from some people, and how this is a natural consequence of “diversity” from others.
  
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  March 16, 2019 8:25am
  - SGA
    
    AOC? I can’t think of anyone in Labour or Greens with those initials?
    
    Sure, politicans will use such events to push their messages. But let’s be honest, if this had been a group of Muslims shooting up churches in Chch, then people here would be using it to push anti-immigration agendas (and overseas right-wing parties would be holding it up as an example too).
    
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    March 16, 2019 8:42am
- Albert_Ross
  
  They are responding exactly as many on Kiwiblog would have done, indeed have regularly and consistently done, to atrocities carried out by Muslims.
  
  I don’t know whether anybody there is trying to point out that the actions of an appalling individual aren’t representative of, or the responsibility of the community as a whole. But if they have I suspect that viewpoint is getting similarly short shrift as do “not all Muslims/not Islam” comments here.
  
  No, it’s not OK when the Left uses a horrifying crime by a depraved individual to reinforce their prejudice and call for action against an entire group of people. It’s not OK when the Right does it either.
  
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  March 16, 2019 8:34am
  - mikenmildagain
    
    Good balance, Albert.
    
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    March 16, 2019 9:28am
  - CharlieBrown
    
    It’s certainly caused me to do some self reflection. My views has softened a little on Muslims over the last year but I still do think religious views should be treated in the same vain as other views – homophobia, sexism, free speech suppression should all be abhorred equally whether it’s driven by political beliefs or religion and characters should be judged by such beliefs.
    
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    March 16, 2019 12:35pm
- Howdy
  
  Southern, Destructive to whom, clearly they don’t think to themselves?
  
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  March 16, 2019 11:08am
Universal Smith

SGA, don’t worry thanks to people like you the gunman has won. He wanted tighter gun and speech laws. You will fight tirelessly to ensure he gets his wish.

This is is all laid out in his left-wing manifesto. Read it.
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March 16, 2019 8:24am
- SGA
  
  Can you find anywhere in all my comments here over the years where I have spoken for restricting free speech? Seriously?
  From where I sit, people like you share a lot in common with the people you despise on the left.
  
  Part of free speech is being able to make comments as I did about (((EAD))). Free speech doesn’t mean that speech is protected from criticism.
  
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  March 16, 2019 8:31am
- waikatosinger
  
  Let’s not argue about whether he was left wing or right wing. He is so far away from what passes for normal politics in this country I don’t think he is even on the same bird.
  
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  March 16, 2019 9:54am
- Universal Smith
  
  I agree, but that cat is already out of the bag with the media and politicians outright lying about the shooters ideology.
  
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  March 16, 2019 10:16am
- gump
  
  @Universal Smith
  
  The manifesto was written to excite credulous morons like you.
  
  Congratulations.
  
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  March 16, 2019 12:14pm
- Rachael Membery
  
  Yes answers any question needing answers in the event of his death.
  
  It is also true that our Kiwi way of life will also be a victim along with the dead and the wounded and the witnesses.
  
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  March 16, 2019 12:36pm
waikatogirl

Simon and Cindy visiting Christchurch together today. “It is not about politics”.
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March 16, 2019 8:24am
- Huevon
  
  I know, but still….
  
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  March 16, 2019 9:11am
  - SGA
    
    ? but still what?
    
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    March 16, 2019 9:24am
- waikatosinger
  
  Going together is an act of statesmanship and a bloody good idea. It presents a united front in the face of this atrocity. I wonder who suggested it.
  
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  March 16, 2019 10:16am
  - Howdy
    
    Simon
    
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    March 16, 2019 11:11am
- dave_c_
  
  “It’s not about the politics” – Rubbish, it is always about the politics.
  Politicians cannot help themselves, turning every opportunity into a photo opportunity, in an atttempt to show how ‘outraged, considerate and compassionate’ they are. Bollocks, all this faux concern is nothing but selfish imbeciles following their own agendas, and they coud care less about the suffering and death.
  
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  March 16, 2019 1:15pm
  - Rachael Membery
    
    Bullshit politician can wear more than one hat at a time just like other people can.
    
    This is about NZ values, I have to confess to some relief that the killer wasn’t local.
    
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    March 16, 2019 1:36pm
Southern Raider

For those who haven’t read the Manifesto I suggest you do. Not from the perspective of trying to understand this mass murderers perspective or to support him, but to see the completely calm and unemotional way he laid out well in advance his plan and thought processes.

If it didn’t have such real and devsasting consequences it would make a good non fiction thriller
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March 16, 2019 8:27am
- rangitoto
  
  The DM says Tarrant traveled the world for seven years before settling on his plan after his father died from cancer. Became obsessed with his ideology on his travels according to someone who knew him. Even visited North Korea.
  
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  March 16, 2019 10:48am
- rightoverlabour
  
  It is worth reading and I can’t understand why NZ ISPs are blocking it. If there is one positive that can be stated is that he is not a representative of a large support base in New Zealand, he is no “Freedom Fighter”.
  
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  March 16, 2019 10:55am
  - V
    
    Blocking is the modern equivalent of trying to ban paper.
    
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    March 16, 2019 1:17pm
- Tauhei Notts
  
  Thankfully I read the manifesto yesterday. Following yesterday’s events it has become an awful document. But it is a document that many of you should read.
  It is well written, with a few typographical mistakes, just like the NZ Herald, but it is chilling to see how totally fucked in the head people, who can write in a coherent manner, can become.
  I do not believe the killer was a terrorist. I believe he was a terribly deranged psychopath. And I believe that what drove the psychopath over the top was day after day news of depraved acts by Muslim people all around the world. News that can annoy and irritate normal people, but news that will make a deranged psychopath a maniac. What is chilling is that it is exceedingly difficult to work out who these maniacs are, before they do their dastardly deeds.
  
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  March 16, 2019 3:21pm
starboard

Can someone tell me how many shooters there were?
Just the one loon, or two, one at each mosque?
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March 16, 2019 8:27am
- Inandout
  
  There were 3 ‘lone wolves’ apparently.
  
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  March 16, 2019 8:31am
  - waikatogirl
    
    Four arrested including a woman.
    Police are combing over a house in Dunedin that has been confirmed as connected.
    
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    March 16, 2019 8:37am
    - waikatosinger
      
      It looks like one of those arrested was a member of the public with a gun trying to help police. There was a report at one point of someone with a gun defending the Linwood mosque.
      
      So only three terrorists, two men and a woman. Since only one man has been charged with murder so far, the other couple are probably accomplices. They might have actively helped him or perhaps they were just people living with him who should have known what he was up to and given warning.
      
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      March 16, 2019 11:15am
      - Twinkletoes
        
        You don’t mean to say there was a muslim with a gun defending the Linwood Mosque. Although we have been told on this blog before that many of the members of the Auckland Gun Club are Iranian Shias and of course Linwood was a Shia mosque. For a small amount of time I had wondered was this a sectarian attack – obviously not.
        
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        March 16, 2019 7:11pm
- JibberJabber
  
  Nobody knows, least of all the pathetic media and their simpleton talking heads.
  
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  March 16, 2019 8:35am
Inandout

Some wise words here.

https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/coping-after-disaster-trauma

Over exposure sometimes has negative effects.
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March 16, 2019 8:31am
adventure

This was about infamy, so let’s not give the coward anything that he, or his supporters, might see as recognition.
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March 16, 2019 8:32am
MrsAnnie

The Australian right is on a whole new level to Kiwis. We are kidding ourselves to claim we are the same.
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March 16, 2019 8:43am
Inandout

Manolo, if you have a dog take it for a walk, if petless, just walk anyway. Exercise works wonders and clears the mind.
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March 16, 2019 8:44am
mustlovedogs

Washington Post tech reporter Drew Harwell, summed up the social media disaster succinctly in a tweet: “The New Zealand massacre was live-streamed on Facebook, announced on 8chan, reposted on YouTube, commented about on Reddit, and mirrored around the world before the tech companies could even react.”
My 12 and 15 year old sons both came across it last night… one on Instagram and the other on Facebook. It wasn’t the whole 17 minute video, but just a portion of it. Luckily both came and told me straight away what they had seen, the one actually thought it was a Call of Duty game being played by a Youtuber in the beginning.
They will never unsee that. The shooter was successful in his social media intentions. Heartbreaking.
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March 16, 2019 8:45am
- Universal Smith
  
  By “disaster” you mean people get to see for themselves rather than being lied to by the media – as they are doing right now with content of his far far far left manifesto?
  
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  March 16, 2019 9:17am
- rightoverlabour
  
  Yup, you never unsee that kind of shit and that is why I won’t watch it. In my 20s we saw necklacing on TV, people getting shot, all sorts of violence on an almost daily basis. When doing military training we were shown more of these videos. They never go away. However, I am optimistic about New Zealand, I don’t really believe that this is the start of a spiral of violence as has happened in other parts of the world. Read the manifesto, but don’t watch the video ( or TV1 etc…..Diaster Porn)
  
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  March 16, 2019 11:01am
  - Howdy
    
    Ditto.
    
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    March 16, 2019 11:16am
JibberJabber

Faux empathy impresario Campbell milking his profile for all he is worth on the TV, safe to come back now John Key has left the building.
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March 16, 2019 8:51am
- Jack5
  
  Mr Gush! The emotion!
  
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  March 16, 2019 9:50pm
Hugh Pavletich

AUSTRALIA: Interest rate cuts are coming.
.
…extract…
.
Westpac’s forecast for RBA rate cuts in 2019, set down on February 21, has gained significant support over the last week. Updates on business and consumer confidence show the growth slowdown over the second half of last year is carrying into 2019 and starting to affect decision making. The case for cuts may build further with the release of next week’s labour market data.
.
Markets are now giving about a 50% chance of an RBA cut by June, up from a 40% chance immediately following the December quarter GDP release. We continue to favour moves coming later in the year – August and November the likeliest timing – with the Bank still seeming reluctant to cut and likely to require more evidence around the ‘consumer-housing nexus’ and the labour market outlook before taking action.
.
https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2019/03/westpac-interest-rate-cuts-coming/
.
.
.
Apartment market disintegrating.
.
https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2019/03/apartment-market-disintegrating/
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March 16, 2019 8:54am
- Rachael Membery
  
  Really? You could give that a rest today.
  
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  March 16, 2019 2:58pm
Universal Smith

He said in his manifesto he would not harm police. He was true to his word. Stop making stuff up.
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March 16, 2019 8:57am
- Happychappy
  
  Tell that to the four year old boy that has just been flown to Starship hospital in critical condition. This loon is agutless prick and no matter whether he is left or right doesn’t deserve to live on this planet.
  
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  March 16, 2019 9:23am
slightlyrighty

I remember clearly the hue and cry there was post the Ururewa raids where people were training with firearms, and the restrictions imposed on the police and intelligence services as a result.

I argued at the time that we need to allow these people to do their job, lest someone slip through the cracks.
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March 16, 2019 9:15am
- sooty
  
  One would hope that the six are under closer inspection today and so they should be!
  
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  March 16, 2019 9:31am
  - fluffykiwi
    
    One is now connected to the Massy University as an “advisor”.
    
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    March 16, 2019 10:43am
- Howdy
  
  yeah Slightly,
  Sure that’s going to happen with Deborah Manning and Nicky Hagar on the Overwatch committee
  
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  March 16, 2019 11:20am
Harkman

Agreed this “we” nonsense has to stop. I know of no small government individual who believes in senseless violence.
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March 16, 2019 9:21am
MrTips

.
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March 16, 2019 9:22am
Disillusioned_Voter

From Player One’s manifesto:
– hates conservatism.
– is eco-facist
– will let us know what he thinks of God when he figures it out.
https://youtu.be/KtXoerJBExE
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March 16, 2019 9:27am
- Harkman
  
  Yeah I heard the eco-fascist part yesterday? Strange.
  
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  March 16, 2019 9:45am
Swifty

Cheer up darkie 🙂

I think we’re all feeling a bit low today. I know I am.
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March 16, 2019 9:28am
- Rachael Membery
  
  Nor should there be, I am still glad though. Thanks for replying.
  
  We are all going to be sensitive for a while.
  
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  March 17, 2019 2:38pm
Odakyu-sen

The basic problem is that some people love their cultures and don’t want them to be changed. (But there are forces for change all around us.)

Change always comes. The young adopt new ideas (partly to set themselves apart from “the older generation”) and thereafter think nothing of their new culture. Then, a generation later, the new youth adopt other ideas, and thus society changes incrementaly.

Incremental changes are tolerable, when the parties to them agree. Too rapid a change can shock certain factions. People will want to speak out against changes they perceive to be excessive. Suppressing this speech is like weighting down the pressure cooker safety valve.

Read the manifesto. This group that came to Christchurch wants to start a war. I hope that the MSM and the politicians do not swallow the bait.

Cool heads and sincere dialog are the only path forward.

BTW, March 15th is the Ides of March.
Coincidence?
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March 16, 2019 9:32am
- fluffykiwi
  
  Yes the Roman day of “bill paying” and of course Caesar was assassinated.
  
  It is the little things that matter to me I still want to buy an Easter Egg, not a novelty chocolate marshmallow egg. I should be able to buy an Easter egg in NZ. Cadbury do not think so because they have been dictated that it is culturally insensitive.
  
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  March 16, 2019 10:45am
  - Twinkletoes
    
    I wonder how many billions they had to pay the muslims to obtain their coveted ‘halal’ designation?
    
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    March 16, 2019 7:21pm
lastmanstanding

IMHO we need a measured response to the incident.

1. A Royal Commission of Inquiry chaired by a retired High Court Judge with an open remit to determine how the incident happened and what steps the Government and its agencies must take to avoid a repeat.

2. Any person found guilty to be sentenced to the maximum allowed by law with no parole.

3. If any person found guilty is not a NZ citizen then they must be deported to their country of origin with a strong recommendation that they serve the sentence past on them in NZ.
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March 16, 2019 9:33am
- mikenmildagain
  
  1) is good. 2) and 3) are not how if works. This person will undoubtedly be sentenced to life imprisonment with an very, very long non-parole period. Unless he is found to be insane. Even at the end of the non-parole period it is very difficult to imagine a NZ parole board releasing him. He will be detained, sane or insane, for life.
  Re sending him home. Prisoners sentenced serve their time here and are only deported when, or in this case, if, they complete the sentence.
  
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  March 16, 2019 9:58am
  - edenman
    
    I suggest after conviction he is returned to Australia to serve his imprisonment on Manus Island
    
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    March 16, 2019 10:37am
- Rachael Membery
  
  One imagines that he will not resile from his manifesto.
  
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  March 16, 2019 3:10pm
Harkman

So my neighbourhood was shot up yesterday. I was woken in the middle of the night and spent all day yesterday with a searing headache. About 1PM it all became too much and I went home to bed. Bizarrely I slept between 1:35PM and 2:15 PM was woken by the cleaner and thought a run would get rid of the headache. As I entered Hagley park and an Irish woman stopped and yelled out from her car that there was a madman with a gun in the park. I thought she was crazy. But the cop cars and the helicopters soon proved something was going on. I got home and put the TV on and shit. Wow!
This bastard has ruined everything.
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March 16, 2019 9:42am
OECD rank 22 kiwi

Jacinda’s reactionary response is to take the guns.
Full virtual signalling overdrive. What a weak PM. “Somebody must do something” won’t undo the damage. All the feels she can muster won’t bring people back from the dead.
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March 16, 2019 9:43am
- mikenmildagain
  
  Yet is could be a powerful argument that gun laws more similar to Australia’s might have prevented, or at least mitigated the scale of, this attack.
  
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  March 16, 2019 9:54am
  - Tall Man
    
    Didn’t stop David Bain using a .22.
    
    The rifle was not the issue. Any rifle with either a large or multiple magazines would have had the exact same result.
    
    No one will run at a man with a “gun” regardless of the calibre or firing action. This guy chose this particular weapon because it was available and probably made him think he was Rambo.
    
    Just remember, the recent attacks in Europe have involved knives, vehicles and bombs.
    
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    March 16, 2019 10:03am
    - noskire
      
      Actually one guy did run at the shooter in the Deans Ave mosque – he didn’t survive.
      
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      March 16, 2019 11:35am
      - dime
        
        he got close. respect for him. poor bugga.
        
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        March 16, 2019 12:18pm
  - Howdy
    
    M&M
    No
    
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    March 16, 2019 11:24am
- fernglas
  
  If some dubious foreign national can come here and get a Class A licence after only a few months in the country, perhaps the licensing system does need a going over.
  
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  March 16, 2019 10:02am
  - Tall Man
    
    Highly unlikely that it was his weapon or that he was licensed.
    
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    March 16, 2019 10:07am
    - Swifty
      
      I understand he was licensed and may well, therefore, have purchased his weapons locally and legally.
      
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      March 16, 2019 10:13am
      - Tall Man
        
        Possible but more likely had an Australian license but I may be wrong.
        
        To obtain a license here and purchase the weapons would likely take more than three months and the “home inspection” would have revealed an issue, based on the guys and gals I know who do that job.
        
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        March 16, 2019 10:17am
      - Universal Smith
        
        He has money and no criminal history. A widely traveled likable lefty. Slipped under the radar.
        
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        March 16, 2019 10:19am
      - BananaLlama
        
        @TallMan He started purchasing firearms in 2017 with a Cat A license.
        
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        March 16, 2019 10:22am
      - fernglas
        
        Precisely. So the system that TM describes must have failed
        
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        March 16, 2019 12:03pm
      - Swifty
        
        No ‘system’ could ever prevent these tragedies happening from time to time – barring the elimination of every single firearm from NZ. I leave it to you to determine the feasibility, workability and cost of achieving that.
        
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        March 16, 2019 1:44pm
- Southern Raider
  
  What is London’s biggest issue at the moment? Not guns it’s random knife attacks.
  
  What killed all the people in the Melbourne mall? Not guns it was a van
  
  Etc
  
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  March 16, 2019 10:32am
  - Howdy
    
    SR, Yes but that was Muslims. (not London life crime).
    
    Maybe they can’t get guns or are just following the internet suggestions to reinforce the unstoppable accent of the attacks?
    
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    March 16, 2019 11:26am
Huevon

And yet when an Australian Senator has the guts to state the bleeding obvious, he is the problem.

Let’s keep things in perspective (note this is as at 16 March 2019):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_March_2019
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March 16, 2019 9:45am
MrTips

My 2c opinion.

A national moment of silence for the victims + relatives soon, wouldn’t go astray.

The perpetrators, if found guilty, should receive the death penalty (yes, I know we can’t but this is an opinion) to be administered in a way approved by the victims families. This would be a one-off only, due to the unique and evil event it is, to send a message we don’t tolerate this shit. Norway got the Brevik sentence wrong imo. They cannot be allowed to infect others.

The dead perpetrators (what’s left) if foreign, should be shipped home at that countries expense. Don’t want that shit becoming a shrine here.

Rant over.
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March 16, 2019 9:57am
- David Garrett
  
  Mr Tips: And what you have written IS indeed a rant…the death penalty with never return – and especially not by retrospective legislation to cater for one past event. However LWOP has been on the books since 2010, although it has never been imposed (it’s been sought at least twice). If Tarrant doesn’t get it, one can assume it will never be imposed.
  
  But I guess you are entitled to a rant…everyone will be handling this in their own way. For me, it is the sombre realization that there will almost certainly be retaliatory attacks…
  
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  March 16, 2019 10:16am
  - krazykiwi
    
    I’m still trying to process this. Part of that process includes your sombre realization.
    
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    March 16, 2019 10:24am
  - Howdy
    
    DG
    I don’t think I agree with you.
    He was an Australian not home grown.
    
    Sure for what our SAS have done with the Americans I have been expecting it at some time, but for this not so.
    
    Especially as the attack will now enable Dawa for the Islamists.
    
    I feel for the victims families and community, for many they thought they were in a safe haven after all that they have been through.
    
    I am sure the CCH community are coming around them as we all write and muse.
    
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    March 16, 2019 11:30am
    - Shunda barunda
      
      “I don’t think I agree with you.
      He was an Australian not home grown.”
      
      You obviously have not seen the growing screams of international Islamist’s declaring jihad on NZ then.
      Why to you think reason prevails in cases like this? Reprisals will likely come from places other than the actual victims. The shooter was part of an international ideological movement, the reprisals will be from the same. We are now caught in the middle of this insanity and there will be plenty of domestic useful idiots that enable it to happen by scapegoating the wrong people.
      NZ has now changed.
      
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      March 16, 2019 1:07pm
Maggie Pie

We were just laying in bed listening to the tranny when Jack Dame started interviewing Helun Clarke about her views on this dredful event. My partner threw it against the wall and smashed it 🙁
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March 16, 2019 9:58am
- Howdy
  
  Maggie, I can understand that, it’s why I try and avoid TV1 in the morning.
  
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  March 16, 2019 11:32am
Universal Smith

The shooter had certain goals he wanted to achieve.

In less than 24 hours he has achieved nearly all of them:

1. Tighter gun controls.
2. Further polarization between left/right.
3. Attacks on freedom of expression.
3. Religious and racial conflict.

The media are doing just what he said they would.
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March 16, 2019 10:05am
- Inandout
  
  Flags half mast, possibly commemorative stamps, candle vigils, what next? The killer/s appear to be neither left nor right in their beliefs; merely a jumble sale. If Trump is to be blamed then Kim, Putin, Pol Pot, Karl Marx and Hitler should also be.
  
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  March 16, 2019 10:21am
  - Universal Smith
    
    I agree. But the truth has already been lost. The media and politicians are glamouring to remove the manifesto so they can tell [lie] us about its content.
    
    This is well underway already.
    
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    March 16, 2019 10:28am
    - Salacious Crumb
      
      Smith. The truth? His manifesto is the nihilistic crap all mass shooters espouse. There’s nothing clever, enlightening or rational in it. Just a hatred of existence and humanity which his own failings as a person have rendered him incapable of dealing with. He’s no different than the marginalised teens who shoot up their schools or movie cinemas. Just another weak, pathetic loser.
      
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      March 16, 2019 11:19am
- Southern Raider
  
  Agree if you read his manifesto he was very clear what he wanted to achieve and also his love for China govt, aligning with greens around mass population reduction and his dislike for Trump
  
  The Manifesto shouldn’t be banned. It should be published so people can see unfiltered who this murderer really was and what his objectives are
  
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  March 16, 2019 10:35am
  - rightoverlabour
    
    This is a good place to go for far better reporting on the attack
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/03/15/new-zealand-police-respond-reports-mosque-shooting-christchurch/
    
    They had the manifesto up yesterday.
    
    This link works
    
    https://katana17.wordpress.com/2019/03/15/the-great-replacement-manifesto-of-new-zealand-mosque-shooter-mar-2019/
    
    As for Jacinda saying we should not share the Manifesto, why the Fuck not? ( The video I can understand)
    
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    March 16, 2019 11:12am
- Rachael Membery
  
  And wanted.
  
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  March 17, 2019 2:46pm
macdee

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
the new age of love, compassion and unity – “Who radicalised these White People? Lets start with Don Brash, Duncan Garner, Sean Plunket, Mike Hosking, Chris Trotter, Pauline Hansen, Senator Fraser Anning, Peter Dutton, Stefan Molyneux, Lauren Southern, Nigel Farage, Piers Morgan, Katie Hopkins and Donald Trump. @FoxyLustyGrover” more listed as you follow the thread
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March 16, 2019 10:08am
- Universal Smith
  
  He answered that. He said Candace Owens. A black women.
  
  He also expresses warmth and respect for all races and wishes them no harm… in their own countries. He has traveled widely and said he loved the experience and was treated well everywhere he went.
  
  Stop cynically using this tragic event to cruelly push your agenda.
  
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  March 16, 2019 10:13am
- unaha-closp
  
  Winston Peters not on your list?
  
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  March 16, 2019 10:14am
- simpleton1
  
  Was he indoctrinated at a Pakistan terror camp?
  https://twitter.com/rishibagree/status/1106480084867837952
  
  The music he was playing accordion in his car? It is a relates to a ‘Serbian war criminal’: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocW3fBqPQkU Remove kebab.
  That is the accordion player.
  
  Did he observe the ways of the great leader in North Korea?
  
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  March 16, 2019 10:31am
  - rightoverlabour
    
    Yup saw that link. Lots of comments linking it to the terror attack yesterday. One of the names on the rifle magazine looks Serbian?
    
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    March 16, 2019 11:15am
BananaLlama

Okay so i watched the ‘stream’ and read the guys ‘manifesto’ No i am not linking them here or anywhere.

There was one shooter, he was Australian, he strolled into a mosque during broad daylight armed with a shotgun and an AR15. He started gunning down people where they stood.
He stated he wants to cause further divisions inside society and hopes his actions will provoke retaliation from Muslims.
He hopes that his actions and his choice of firearms will cause further firearm restrictions and force firearms owners to take a side noting that they do little to protect the erosion of their rights.
He hopes that the MSM will attack online culture due to his use of social media memes further radicalising young people.
He used alot of online white nationalist iconography to stylize his firearms and attempted to reproduce a CoD (video game) look.
He traveled to many countries around the world, Turkey, Pakistan and even North Korea.
He also describes himself as an Eco Fascist and did not originally plan to carry out his attacks here in NZ stating that he was using NZ as a place to train but decided it would as good a place as any.

He is most definitely a Terrorist and he is quite (in)Sane. Imo he should get a death penalty as his guilt is beyond doubt.
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March 16, 2019 10:15am
- Ultima
  
  Thanks for the summary as i am not going to give this or any terrorists any of my time and attention.
  
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  March 16, 2019 10:30am
- Southern Raider
  
  Also aligned to a lot of communist doctrine including admitting he was once a communist and calling for strong labour rights
  
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  March 16, 2019 10:38am
  - fernglas
    
    And saying he would be out in 27 years and given a Nobel Peace prize. Sadly deluded fools can often seem convincing, particularly to others of the same stripe.
    
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    March 16, 2019 11:57am
    - simpleton1
      
      Based on a true story!
      
      Why do you believe you will be released from prison?
      
      I do not just expected to be released, but I also expect an eventual Nobel Peace prize. As was awarded to the Terrorist Nelson Mandela once his own people achieved victory and took power.
      I expect to be freed in 27 years from my incarceration, the same number of years as Mandela, for the same crime.
      
      Truth is stranger than fiction, and he believes the nihilism.
      
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      March 16, 2019 12:19pm
    - Rachael Membery
      
      Comparing himself to Nelson Mandela.
      
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      March 16, 2019 3:37pm
- Inandout
  
  We don’t have the death penalty in NZ, despite how horrible the crimes.
  
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  March 16, 2019 1:00pm
Ultima

Me too Manolo. No doubt after the grief comes the anger, and I’m not far off to that stage.
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March 16, 2019 10:19am
WaveyDavey

Hate to break it to you but statistically it’s insignificant.

In the last decade the lowest number of deaths per year due to terrorism was 7,827 in 2010 (it’s been rising every year since then), that’s 21 deaths per day. BTW 2014 was 123 deaths per day.

Yesterday it was our turn and while it’s an extraordinary event in NZ terms, for the world as whole it’s just another day at the office.
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March 16, 2019 10:20am
David Garrett

Banana: Has it been confirmed there was only ONE shooter? If so he got from Hagley Ave to Linwood in record time…but then I guess he wouldn’t have been worrying about the speed limit.

And “he should get the death penalty”? Please…Much more to the point is whether our Judges will finally impose the LWOP sentence which has been available to them since 2010. As you say, there is no question about this guy’s guilt, although he has said he will plead not guilty and drag the country through a trial.
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March 16, 2019 10:20am
- BananaLlama
  
  During his streaming of the atrocities he was the only present in the vehicle and he was the only one who entered the mosque. I cannot speak of the atrocities that unfolded after.
  
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  March 16, 2019 10:25am
- lastmanstanding
  
  The Judges wont impose LWOP. They will wring their hands like the good Lefties they are blame it on white middle aged men and give him the minimum sentence they can with parole at the earliest opportunity.
  
  Betcha Im proved right.
  
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  March 16, 2019 10:32am
  - ztev
    
    “They [judges] will wring their hands like the good Lefties they are”
    Almost all the current senior judges were appointed by national and Chris Finlayson- for criminal cases. its the Court of Appeal who ‘writes’ the guidelines for sentences in its rulings which other judges must follow- all were appointed by Finlayson.
    
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    March 16, 2019 10:56am
- peterwn
  
  The problem with Life Without Parole (LWOP) is new age sensitive judges would be concerned with the finality of it. It is nearly as ‘final’ as a death sentence except if there is (say) new evidence showing innocence the key can be turned and the prisoner set free. If I were a judge I would be extremely reluctant to sentence someone to something as final as LWOP.
  A way round the issue could be to allow a prisoner sentenced to LWOP or a long minimum period to face a parole hearing at 20 years then 10 yearly intervals after that (or similar variations). The requirements for release would be set far more stringently than for usual parole so a prisoner who strives really hard to reform himself and deal with his issues has some possibility of parole. Most probably very few would, they would probably commit an act of violence in prison at some point.
  Hopefully judges may be more ready to impose LWOP if such a mechanism were in place although it would be difficult to second guess the attitude of the judiciary on this point
  
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  March 16, 2019 10:51am
  - David Garrett
    
    Peterwn: That is a very long winded way of saying our judges lack guts.
    
    While the critics of LWOP deride it as an American idea, UK judges have had what they call a “whole of life tariff” as a sentence since 1983. There have apparently been about 100 such sentences imposed, including on such infamous criminals as the Yorkshire Ripper, Peter Sutcliffe.
    
    Coming down a notch, UK judges seem quite ready to impose very long NPP’s on their worst killers – 40 years in the case of two child killers.
    
    Thus far the high point in New Zealand remains William Bell, sentenced to life with a minimum NPP of 33 years – later reduced to 30 years on appeal – for the triple murder at the Panmure RSA in 2001.
    
    While LWOP was not available when Bell was sentenced, a Judge could have imposed life with a 40 year minimum – but he would have been wasting his time since the then Court of Appeal thought 33 years was too long. It will be very interesting to see what Tarrant gets when, as is inevitable, he is found guilty of 49 murders. As I have said elsewhere here, if he doesn’t get LWOP then no-one ever will.
    
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    March 16, 2019 1:20pm
- ztev
  
  “In record time ” DG ?
  
  he was shooting at people and cars on the way! Makes it easier dont you think
  
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  March 16, 2019 10:58am
  - slightlyrighty
    
    But he also stopped at pedestrian crossings, I’m led to believe. The incongruity of it all jus messes with my mind.
    
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    March 16, 2019 11:22am
- Rachael Membery
  
  And who shall represent him?
  
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  March 16, 2019 3:38pm
krazykiwi

I wish Australia would send us more deplorable kiwis, and fewer deplorable aussies.
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March 16, 2019 10:25am
- Howdy
  
  No keep them!
  
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  March 16, 2019 12:01pm
Scooter

At least it should be 17 years per person killed (or whatever the usual rate for for murder is).
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March 16, 2019 10:28am
Fletch

Crowder on the shooting, and the media’s rush to blame Trump conservatives.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtXoerJBExE
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March 16, 2019 10:29am
- David Garrett
  
  Fletch: Never heard of this guy Crowder, but he makes excellent points…particularly that in several places in his looney “manifesto” Tarrant describes himself as “an eco-fascist”.
  
  He makes it clear that he regards it as quite acceptable to adopt extreme measures to protect the environment. That sounds like the lunatic fringe of the Green movement to me rather than “alt-right”.
  
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  March 16, 2019 1:37pm
sam green

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12213266
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March 16, 2019 10:29am
- David Garrett
  
  Mr Aly doesn’t say it, but the story quotes the Aussie PM as calling Tarrant “a right wing extremist”. Having read through his “manifesto” I don’t see how anyone can pigeonhole this guy as being right OR left…at one point he describes himself as an “eco-fascist” which seems to mean he supports radical action to protect the environment…isn’t that what the Green Party does? Or at least their 1080 nutter fringe?
  
  He’s also anti capitalist and anti big business,,,surely not traits of someone on the “extreme right”. It seems to me that you can comb the 74 page rant and portray this guy as anything that suits your particular agenda right, left or just plain mad.
  
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  March 16, 2019 10:42am
  - ztev
    
    Ok ok Alt-Right then. Look he was a personal trainer , hes not the brightest guy around and hes just picked all sorts of bright shiny things for his ‘manifesto’ – as they do.
    The reality at the core is his hatred of muslim immigration which has lead to deaths of 50 people. he didnt go shooting up BP or Toyota .
    Its often said many people have jumbled up set of beliefs , the more deranged they are the more jumbled up they will be.
    ‘your manifesto’ if you had one – Im not comparing the two- would likely well argued and largely coherent , because thats your day job.
    
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    March 16, 2019 10:52am
    - Salacious Crumb
      
      He’s neither left or right. Read his ramblings. Just a nihilistic prick who hates but he’s even too much of a coward to admit to that.
      
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      March 16, 2019 11:23am
  - Fletch
    
    I haven’t read the manifesto, but according to what people say who have read it, the guy writes to himself in a question/answer format –
    
    “Are you a conservative? No, conservatism is corporatism in disguise, I want no part of it. Conservatism is dead, thank god. When I was young I was a communist, then an anarchist and finally a libertarian before coming to be an eco-fascist. Were/are you a supporter of Donald Trump? Dear god no.”
    
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    March 16, 2019 10:56am
Universal Smith

I get that people are upset, but the idea of a death penalty is a terrible idea for all sorts of reasons, aside from the fact the law does not provide for it.

This sort of over reaction is why he did all this. Keeping our heads and pulling closer together is the way to beat him. So far people are doing just what he wanted to an appalling degree.
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March 16, 2019 10:32am
- David Garrett
  
  Universal: I agree. Reference to the death penalty may be therapeutic for some, but it is totally pointless: it’s not on our statute books, and never will be again.
  
  It is however quite proper to point out that LWOP is on our statute books, and surely this case cries out for its imposition? If it doesn’t get imposed for this, it never will be.
  
  (I am not bothering with “alleged” and “suspected” because it’s crystal clear this guy is guilty)
  
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  March 16, 2019 10:47am
  - Universal Smith
    
    Tougher sentencing would have done nothing to prevent this.
    
    I agree that if this does not meet the test for LWOP then nothing would.
    
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    March 16, 2019 10:50am
    - David Garrett
      
      No, I agree; tougher sentencing in the past would have made no difference – the guy apparently has no criminal history.
      
      Joining the dots, it would appear there was only ONE shooter, who managed to get from Hagley Ave to Linwood in record time…unless the reports of the second shootings happening 15 minutes or so after the first incorrect.
      
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      March 16, 2019 10:53am
      - Universal Smith
        
        Looking at the footage he was not mucking around driving there. By that stage he was possibly untroubled by traffic regulations.
        
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        March 16, 2019 11:06am
lazza

How do Cam Slater and WO supporters feel now? Their site was/is awash with islamaphobic content, an obsession with firearms, and a pro Israel anti Arab stance on any issue at the drop of a hat. Fits the template perfectly as part of the white supremacist right wing hate speech ecosystem.
“Shame-Shame” … and time for some genuine soul searching, The WO people and web presence are guilty of giving comfort and support to killers and crazies.
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March 16, 2019 10:33am
- Southern Raider
  
  WTF does Israel have to do with this tragedy?
  
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  March 16, 2019 10:41am
- Manolo
  
  Shame on you for bringing Israel into the discussion. What does it have to do with it?
  
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  March 16, 2019 11:09am
Southern Raider

Mad Marama has organised a peace rally for today in Aotea Square.

This has nothing to do with support for the victims, community unity etc. This is being used to further drive the Marxist Green agenda, create more divisions, drive hate against white people and most importantly ensure all rights of speech are controlled by the Govt
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March 16, 2019 10:40am
- Nibbles
  
  I wonder who she will drop a C-bomb on today. Horrible woman.
  
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  March 16, 2019 10:48am
- David Garrett
  
  Universal: I agree…no fair reading of the “manifesto” can possibly lead to the conclusion that this guy is “far right” or even “right”. Any person or organization portraying him thus is simply reading what they want to see.
  
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  March 16, 2019 11:00am
- BananaLlama
  
  I wonder if they will be shouting to punch Nazis and ban public speakers this time, make some idle bomb threats and pretend it is all a joke. Maybe after the labour union can bullhorn about putting people in their graves and call Petroleum corporations terrorists.
  I have had a gutsfull of it all i really have it’s like sanity just left the building and Foxtrot Oscar to another planet.
  
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  March 16, 2019 11:16am
- Ultima
  
  Try googling “eco-fascist” and no result from the NZ MSM. What a surprise.
  
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  March 16, 2019 11:18am
WaveyDavey

“The world is literally a greener place than it was twenty years ago…”

https://www.earthobservatory.nasa.gov/images/144540/china-and-india-lead-the-way-in-greening
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March 16, 2019 10:52am
EAD_THREE

I met my girlfriend’s parents – and realised I once slept with her father

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/mar/12/i-met-my-girlfriends-parents-and-realised-i-had-once-slept-with-her-father

We are reaching levels of degeneracy that make Weimar look reactionary.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2847643/Berlin-liberal-hotbed-homosexuality-mecca-cross-dressers-transsexuals-male-female-surgery-performed-Nazis-came-power-new-book-reveals.html
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March 16, 2019 10:55am
lazza

Good God! I am aghast … at the (many not all) self serving agenda- driven responses here on GD … tone deaf to the loss of 47! human lives.

There is little (sparse) empathy and comfort to the bereaved. Just tawdry point scoring almost as if the massacre is merely a continuation of the rhetoric.

NZ has assuredly lost its innocence, but it looks to me like many NZers care more for their precious prejudices … ahead of their humanity.
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March 16, 2019 10:56am
- Howdy
  
  sorry Sam.
  Have you.
  No.
  Let them rant it is all auditable.
  remember that…..
  
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  March 16, 2019 12:05pm
Howdy

CB, as you should.
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March 16, 2019 10:57am
Howdy

PhilB
We weren’t a soft target, they were!
We were an easy avenue of access because he was an Aussie and we weren’t expecting it.

I feel for the Police and funnies, they have to get it 100% right and that’s impossible as has been shown.
GCSB SIS NZPolice have very finite resources.
NZPolice don’t even have enough to cover the gangs properly.
The last annual report from SIS I read they only had 200 F/T people.

They do not go to work to fail, they do their best with what they’ve got I am sure.
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March 16, 2019 11:00am
- Rachael Membery
  
  Well the GCSB need more money and less oversight from that stupid committee that Hagar is on.
  
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  March 17, 2019 2:26pm
Howdy

It is a Prayer and always has been, it’s one reason the Progressives don’t like it.
I Like the Maori words too, Love singing it occasional at the rugby.
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March 16, 2019 11:13am
davidp

I’m in Australia and therefore not exposed to most NZ media, but I’ve come to the conclusion that this was probably a single terrorist. Four people were arrested… The Aussie. A member of the public with a gun who decided to help out the police. A guy whose only “crime” seems to be a love of camo clothing. And one other person (presumably the woman?) who hasn’t been named or mentioned at all, and I suspect is another false positive.

So how did this one guy hit two sites in Christchurch? Presumably the Aussie was in the car that the police ran off the road, where the two officers pulled him out of the vehicle? Or was that a false positive? Were the “bombs” in that vehicle, or a different one somewhere else, or there were none? There was also a mention of a suicide vest… was that on the Aussie?

This is a basic information, the police and government must know the answer by now, and it is strange that no one is making the information public. A deranged lone wolf with a gun is hard to prevent. A lone wolf with access to bomb-making supplies is a lot more serious, and should have left a much bigger intelligence footprint pre-crime. And multiple shooters hitting two sites in a coordinated attack means there is something seriously wrong going on in NZ… But that doesn’t seem to have actually happened, regardless of what the media confusion led us to believe yesterday.
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March 16, 2019 11:20am
- Universal Smith
  
  “So how did this one guy hit two sites in Christchurch? Presumably the Aussie was in the car that the police ran off the road, where the two officers pulled him out of the vehicle? Or was that a false positive? Were the “bombs” in that vehicle, or a different one somewhere else, or there were none? ”
  
  Yes it looked to be the same car. He also appeared to have “bombs” in the car made from fuel containers. That was the same car the police later rammed and arrested the driver. He drove off very quickly from the first Mosque. The footage ended while still driving, so no idea about the second mosque.
  
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  March 16, 2019 11:24am
  - David Garrett
    
    Universal: Yes…Given that Tarrant has appeared in court charged with two murders, and that no-one else appeared, it would seem pretty clear that there was only the ONE shooter. Fucked if I know why the cops don’t make that clear so everyone can stop worrying about another nutter possibly being still out there.
    
    49 killed – and two in a critical condition – from one event…it still seems pretty surreal to me.
    
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    March 16, 2019 12:21pm
    - Universal Smith
      
      I do not mean to sound insensitive, but it often amazes me there are not more fatalities in these shootings. However in this case it was what I would expect of a motivated and prepared shooter in that environment. This guy was stone cold and a few parts of the footage made that very clear, along with his general demeanor. He appeared to feel nothing for his victims.
      
      Once thing in particular really stuck in my head. I am still processing it all and I am not overly fragile. I am having a big-think. Even looking at my own conduct and manner. Can’t change the world, but we can change ourselves.
      
      It must be remembered that the cause of this was the shooter and not people expressing their views on blogs and media. I am still arranging my thoughts.
      
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      March 16, 2019 12:32pm
  - davidp
    
    Thanks US. That adds some clarity to the situation that I’m not getting from either the government or the police.
    
    So the Aussie spent twenty minutes killing people at one mosque, drove across town, spent time killing people in the second mosque, got back in his car and was intercepted by two ordinary (no tactical wear and one with a handgun) police while fleeing the scene or on the move to a third location? Those two police deserve all the medals we can give them… But what was the rest of the force doing in this time? This is a hard situation for police to deal with, but was the Aussie on the loose for possibly an hour?
    
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    March 16, 2019 12:47pm
    - David Garrett
      
      davidp: You have to remember at least two things: firstly Christchurch is geographically a large city with excellent roads…as evidenced by the fact that it appears he was able to drive the 6 km from Hagley Ave to Aldwins road so quickly…Google maps says that’s a 12 minute drive…I would have thought it was closer to twice that.
      
      Secondly, it was a very rapidly developing situation – after the shootings in Linwood he took to Brougham Street, which parallels Moorhouse Ave to the south. It is somewhere along that 5-6 k road that the cops got him. I would have thought they did a superb job.
      
      As you say, they were clearly just two ordinary cops in an ordinary car; not AOS or Tactical Response, one armed only with the handgun they now all carry in the boot. Well done those men.
      
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      March 16, 2019 1:46pm
      - davidp
        
        Thanks DG. Thinking about this some more… He has worked out or stumbled upon the police’s response time and moved target inside that time. While the police were rushing to target 1, he was already on his way to target 2. While the police were rushing to target 2 he was already on his way to wherever. In which case the vital clue was a description of the vehicle and a tip off he was on the move.
        
        Oh, and… The reason he left target 2 so quickly was one of the Muslims grabbed his gun and took it off him, but couldn’t work out how to fire it. I hope we identify that guy and give him a bunch of medals.
        
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        March 16, 2019 4:13pm
    - Evadne
      
      36 minutes from first 111 call to arrest.
      
      That sounds like pretty quick action to me, given the circumstances.
      
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      March 16, 2019 1:46pm
      - RW Capitalist
        
        Especially as we were, before the act, on a LOW level of awareness.
        I’d say excellent work.
        Maybe those that want police to give up car chases, could rethink their view?
        
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        March 16, 2019 2:03pm
Maggie Pie

Has anyone else seen the dredful and vile post just made by ‘Black with a Vengence’
on the ‘No posts for a while’ post that DPF poasted last night? Disgusting 🙁
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March 16, 2019 11:24am
- ztev
  
  Are you saying KB and whaleoil to a greater extent didnt attract virulent anti muslims ?
  
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  March 16, 2019 11:30am
- BananaLlama
  
  He’s mentally retarded and reminds me of this when he spouts of his black supremacist shit.
  
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_New_Zealand_police_raids
  
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  March 16, 2019 11:31am
- waikatogirl
  
  Maggy, vile troll alert. Don’t engage. BlackwithaVengence has been awol for some time. Apt he should return for such an evil topic.
  
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  March 16, 2019 2:03pm
- Rachael Membery
  
  Did you report it?
  
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  March 16, 2019 3:57pm
tranquil

I wanted to copy ead_three’s post as it is (IMO) one of the best I’ve seen here –

Quote
[ we should be asking ourselves why a person wanted to do so and why they were willing to do so. ]

It is hard to type anything without the risk of appearing to be a sympathiser with terrorism, however, I was watching the TV news special last half an hour or more, and there has been quite a bit of talk about how the ideology of this man has led to these deaths.

Nowhere, not once, has there been any self reflection of what may be going wrong with **their own ideology and policies** – an ideology and policies that have lead to the untold thousands of of deaths and rapes all over the Western World at the hands of people they have imported as part of that world view.

I cannot condone the actions, but I can **understand the scenario** that drives somebody to something like this.

We are pretty much blockaded from any lever of change. We cannot spread common sense themes in schools, we cannot get our messages out in the press, radio or TV.

We cannot compete in an electoral system that’s stacked against us in all ways possible, every institution and organisation is purposefully acting in ways to prevent ‘peaceful’ changes to our fortunes being made.

So, as our lands get taken over – albeit by many ‘good’ people alongside the bad – just what are people going to do about it? Where do they go to? How can the “bigger picture” ever be changed in a realistic and lasting fashion?

With no options left, with even social media and the internet closing in and closing dissent down, what can people expect to happen?

Again, I cannot condone it and I don’t think it is the right way at all, but I can understand what could happen if you back people into a corner with no obvious way out.
– end quote

Agreed, ead_three.

There is a famous Russian joke about Lenin, Stalin and Brezhnev on a train that breaks down. The punchline is that Brezhnev says “lets just pull down all the blinds and pretend we are moving”.
I desperately hope that the government does not “pull down all the blinds” and ban **perfectly valid, fact and history-based** criticism of Islam.
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March 16, 2019 11:38am
- SGA
  
  I cannot condone the actions, but I can **understand the scenario** that drives somebody to something like this.
  …
  Again, I cannot condone it and I don’t think it is the right way at all, but I can understand what could happen if you back people into a corner with no obvious way out.
  
  If someone took this line on KB regarding a Palestinian suicide bomber (say), many here would not tolerate a word of it (even though they could make a better case for some true hardship or oppression than the terrorists here have ever experienced). Such an approach would be derided and mocked. Will sauce for the goose be sauce for the gander?
  
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  March 16, 2019 12:47pm
Lee C

It is on record that there are posters here who express vile and hateful sentiments.
The key difference is that not suppressing their right to says these vile and hateful things is confused or conflated with the idea that everyone here agrees with them. Unless they are visiting as a ‘left-wing’ ‘voice of reason’. I for one don’t.
If you can find a racist or anti-muslim sentiment posted by me, for example, or the majority of people here, then I’m ok with being called out.
But pretending to confuse having nutters or objectionable ideas in the room with being insane or in collusion, is a lazy, and cowardly way to attack people in my opinion.
Unlike some places, these ‘vile and hateful’ types are not automatically censored here. In my view, it merely shows them up for what they are. And, do not conflate acknowledging the right to be vile and hateful with having to agree with it.
If a person is so keen to ‘use’ forty-nine deaths as a sort of human-shield from behind which they can further their partisan objectives, I say that is shameful. One day they will look back and realise they were misguided. I’ve been there myself, so I know what I’m talking about.
Finally, I’d say to people who are angry and hurting. Everyone is.
So working together is best, surely?
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March 16, 2019 11:42am
- Jack5
  
  Lee, a double return on the keyboard would give you space between your paragraphs.
  
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  March 16, 2019 12:40pm
dcrown

It is despicable that the liberal media are using this tragedy to smear the President of the USA.
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March 16, 2019 11:46am
- Howdy
  
  hahahaha
  you’ve gotta laugh.
  Trumps a big boy and has had their measure for w while now.
  
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  March 16, 2019 12:08pm
  - Jack5
    
    Jacinderella has told Trump how he can help, and she is being sarcastic:
    
    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/111331484/pm-jacinda-ardern-told-donald-trump-send-love-to-muslims-after-mosque-shooting
    
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    March 16, 2019 1:17pm
    - Colville
      
      aint it great how the msm is happy to climb onto the large pile of corpses to wave their anti Trump flag.
      
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      March 16, 2019 1:31pm
    - All_on_Red
      
      She’s so ignorant she probably thinks there’s a ‘Muslim’ ban on immigration in the US
      
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      March 16, 2019 2:39pm
    - Ross12
      
      I read that Jack and I thought up until then the PM was doing very well in how she handling it all but she cannot help herself ( I have not seen it but when I told my wife about the comment you link to she said that the PM has also made some comment about Trump supporting white supremacists ).
      
      Meanwhile 120+ Christians have been slaughtered by Muslim raiders in Africa and hardly anyone makes a comment.
      https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2019/03/icymi-120-christians-slaughtered-by-muslim-herders-in-nigeria-media-silent/
      
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      March 16, 2019 7:06pm
mjw

Sigh. So much for free speech. It seems that the real threat is not suppression of argument, but that forums for free speech are being hijacked by those intent on nothing but sowing division, and indeed sedition.

So sad to see these forces actively promoting the terrorist manifesto within 24 hours, under the guise of free speech.

For those of you who are serious about this – it’s not too late. Disagree, by all means, but make the effort to views others with compassion, instead of as objects. Come back to the light. Hating others won’t cure the darkness you feel. Only compassion can do that.
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March 16, 2019 12:08pm
lazza

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Oh and Trump could care less?

Gimme a break.

This excuse for a man/President belatedly posted on Twitter, condolences without any! mention that it was sorrow for the (choke) … MUSLIMS … they were ALL Muslims … killed.

The tone of his apology was more suited to victims of an earthquake than to those slaughtered by a deranged white supremacist bigot

The very people he loses no opportunity to vilify/demonise.

He and his followers form a huge part of the hate campaign. So forget the faux-mock apologies.

They just don’t ring true ehh?
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March 16, 2019 12:16pm
- All_on_Red
  
  Lazza
  ‘ but it looks to me like many NZers care more for their precious prejudices’
  
  Also Lazza
  ‘This excuse for a man/President belatedly posted on Twitter’
  ‘The very people he loses no opportunity to vilify/demonise.’
  
  Hypocrite
  
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  March 16, 2019 1:01pm
- Rachael Membery
  
  Damned if he did damned if he didn’t, if he had have said it how you wanted him to, you would still have cried faux.
  
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  March 16, 2019 4:29pm
- Pascal
  
  Hey lazza.
  
  Some good thoughtful comments… that miss the essential point! Which is …
  
  “Grief” comes first … respect for the dead and our human sorry precedes “anger” etc.
  
  You, and many others, seem to lack the nous and empathy sufficiently to enable you to suspend the diatribe … even for just one day. Hobby horses ahoy!
  
  This to me, says a great deal about your priorities. A priority is given to obsessive, strident and opinionated prejudice with no balanced consideration of any other issues, points of view or fellow feeling. We are ALL of the same sentient species, remember.
  
  Shame Shame. (If the cap fits? etc)
  
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  March 16, 2019 8:51pm
Chuck Bird

I know that NZ citizens have to go to a bit of trouble to get a gun licence. They need there spouse or partner to be interviewed as well as their employer. They also need a licenced gun owner to support their application.

Does anyone know how someone who is not a citizen or permanent resident can get a licence? This is a legitimate issue that should be looked at but talk of banning AR15 is just politicking.

The shooter chooses AR15s not just because of its firepower but to cause this sort of controversy and more publicity.
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March 16, 2019 12:38pm
Keeping Stock

As I type this, my wife, who flew to Christchurch yesterday morning for an unrelated event, is visiting the mother of a four-year-old boy who was shot yesterday. This woman has another family member who was wounded yesterday. They are a refugee family, to whom our business has been providing support via Refugee Services.

This family, and others in their community, thought they had been blessed when they had the chance to resettle in New Zealand and create new lives. They have been learning English in order to be able to get jobs and start making a contribution to their new community. Now, their lives have been shattered, and they face the trauma of burying their young child, shot dead by a terrorist yesterday whilst attending Friday prayers with his family.

Via the service club my wife and I belong to, we do car parking duty as a fundraiser. This morning we made the decision we would donate every cent collected today to this family. We have communicated this to people coming to our car park, and I have been stunned by the generosity that has been shown. I have also been gratified by the response of people when we explained where the money was going, and our connection to the bereaved family. I have choked back tears a few times, and a number of the people coming through this morning have got emotional too.

There will be plenty of time to ascribe responsibility in the wake of this act of terrorism. In the meantime though, I have seen plenty of grief and sorrow today, and let’s just support one another as best we can. An acquaintance of mine is involved with a local mosque, and I plan to ask if I can visit there during the week to express my condolences on their territory, because it was their community’s safe place that was invaded by evil yesterday.

PS – if anyone would like to contribute to the family I have referred to above, please feel free to email me on [email protected], and I will send you our club’s bank account details. I am sure the family will be grateful for your support.
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March 16, 2019 12:50pm
Lee C

Thank

you

Jack5.
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March 16, 2019 12:52pm
- Jack5
  
  Y
  
  O
  
  U
  
  ‘
  R
  
  E
  
  W
  
  E
  
  L
  
  C
  
  O
  
  M
  
  E
  
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  March 16, 2019 12:56pm
waikatogirl

Wandering around the Auckland waterfront with crowds of others, I wondered if a particular couple were Aussies? I said to hubby that anyone here from Australia will be feeling awful about what their fellow citizen/s did yesterday and sadly probably keeping their own heads down and their country origin to themselves, although Kiwis don’t blame all Aussie’s for their wacko countrymen.
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March 16, 2019 1:11pm
- tranquil
  
  @waikatogirl – “… anyone here from Australia will be feeling awful about what their fellow citizen/s did yesterday and sadly probably keeping their own heads down and their country origin to themselves…”
  
  Yes, and that’s sad (although understandable).
  I **love** the Aussies. We give each other a bit of stick and have a bit of banter but I’d do **anything** for them. They’re great mates and this lunatic doesn’t change that.
  
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  March 16, 2019 2:52pm
V

Tell you what I have to have particular contempt for those talking head media/Kiwis on twitter that have publically expressed sentiments along the lines of “Oh Chch is full of racists, rednecks etc”.
These people seek to validate their own prejudice. The guy wasn’t from the local area and looks to have planned the whole thing from Dunedin.
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March 16, 2019 1:20pm
- Inandout
  
  V, isn’t Every St in Dunedin? Strange name for a street.
  
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  March 16, 2019 1:27pm
RW Capitalist

It didn’t take “micky Savage” over on the standard long to miss the point all together and make it political.
“And sorry to get political but National’s dangerous rhetoric about the UN Migration Pact has not helped. When a mainstream party uses outlandish rhetoric for political advantage it should be condemned.”
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March 16, 2019 1:50pm
- RW Capitalist
  
  I assume the 2 down tickers believe it is right to bring this up and twist it’s meaning, now. oohh 3 now
  
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  March 16, 2019 2:14pm
- Swifty
  
  What the fuck is that even supposed to mean?
  
  We can’t raise issues, object to things we disagree with, share our opinions, protest, speak freely etc – just in case some sicko, somewhere, at some point in the future, goes postal?
  
  Yeah, that would suit the left most handsomely wouldn’t it, to have their political opponents so muzzled.
  
  Well, I’m not buying it.
  
  Yesterday was an unspeakable tragedy. Nobody, ever, should inflict the kind of damage we’ve seen and with hundreds of lives either destroyed or forever harmed.
  
  But yesterday will not affect my willingness to speak out about ideologies, behaviours, or changes to our society that I think harmful.
  
  There, I’ve said it.
  
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  March 16, 2019 2:30pm
  - tranquil
    
    @Swifty – “Yesterday was an unspeakable tragedy. Nobody, ever, should inflict the kind of damage we’ve seen and with hundreds of lives either destroyed or forever harmed.
    
    But yesterday will not affect my willingness to speak out about ideologies, behaviours, or changes to our society that I think harmful.”
    
    Agreed.
    
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    March 16, 2019 2:48pm
Swifty

Oh dear, if true.

I have just been sent a Facebook post where a woman says:

‘My adult children have just got back from the Mosque in Hamilton, two cars – both driven by Pakeha guys, slowly drove past – and shouted out ‘it’s just the beginning’ and ‘there should have been more……’ ‘

Disgraceful, again if true.
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March 16, 2019 2:07pm
- Inandout
  
  The Pandora Box effect? Innocence is like lost virginity; irreversible. Plastic bag bans and climate strikes seem so silly now.
  
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  March 16, 2019 6:09pm
fernglas

It’s a surprise to you that there are more than 2 sets of opinions to go around?
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March 16, 2019 2:10pm
- sooty
  
  If you don’t like those opinions, I have some more!
  
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  March 16, 2019 3:16pm
- Ross12
  
  fernglas
  I was just highlighting the lazza, within the space of 12 minutes, goes completely contrary to what he wrote in the first post.
  
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  March 16, 2019 3:52pm
Fletch

Look at this bullshit from the New York Times –

The New York Times published an op-ed Friday accusing President Donald Trump and Breitbart News, among others, of having “blood on their hands” in the terror attacks against two mosques in Christchurch, New Zealand, which killed 50 people.
Wajahat Ali, a “contributing opinion writer” for the Times, has appeared on CNN several times since the massacres in New Zealand, calling the president an “enabler and an ally” of the perpetrators.

In his op-ed, Ali goes further. The subtitle declares, “All those who have helped to spread the worldwide myth that Muslims are a threat have blood on their hands.”

https://www.breitbart.com/the-media/2019/03/15/new-york-times-op-ed-trump-breitbart-news-have-blood-on-their-hands-in-christchurch-new-zealand/

Utterly disgusting.
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March 16, 2019 2:30pm
- wiseowl
  
  Did you see the clip on Tucker Carlson where a stupid woman bailed up Chelsea Clinton and blamed her for what happened in Christchurch?
  Nuts.
  
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  March 16, 2019 6:45pm
Lee C

Jack5 Might I suggest an additional return between ‘you’re’ and ‘welcome’?
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March 16, 2019 3:02pm
Jack5

Of course.

Much obliged!
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March 16, 2019 3:13pm
lazza

Down ticks persuade me to the view that my POV runs counter to KB’s plethora of right wing polemicists.

An echo chamber of views that coincides with, but never fairly weighs other people’s legitimate concerns/views.

The Kiwi way of open minded balanced fairness, is clearly not the way of KB.
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March 16, 2019 4:21pm
- Rachael Membery
  
  Why’s that you haven’t been banned. It is anything other than an echo chamber.
  
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  March 16, 2019 4:57pm
- Happychappy
  
  Have you ever though your message created the down ticks by being a wanker and if you had them views before hand why comment.
  
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  March 16, 2019 5:30pm
- rightoverlabour
  
  Then fuck off. I think this is the best blog as every person has the right to express virtually any opinion. I am proud to be lumped in with “Right Wing Polemicists” because the Left have are generally associated with Mass murder and economic bankruptcy. Look at Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Kim, most of Africa .. the evils of Left Dictatorships litter the halls of history. If being Right Wing means freedom of speech, freedom of association, freedom to work for wages, freedom of Religion, then I am Proudly Right Wing.
  
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  March 16, 2019 7:37pm
- Viking2
  
  Nor is it the way of the left. They as Trumpy pointed out a few days ago are evil.
  
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  March 16, 2019 9:39pm
Maggie Pie

we just watched that Brendan Tarrant on 1 news apearing in the Chch court flanked by 2 police officers,.As my partner said “He looks like a real short-arse. That should have raised a few red flags for a startt”
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March 16, 2019 6:12pm
- Inandout
  
  Maggie: Pol Pot, Kim, Stalin, Napoleon, Mussolini..all short arses.
  
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  March 16, 2019 6:43pm
- Viking2
  
  Yep had the same thought. Nasty little short man syndrome.
  
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  March 16, 2019 9:37pm
  - Jack5
    
    Short people – Randy Newman’s take:
    
    https://youtu.be/8bfyS-S-IJs
    
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    March 16, 2019 9:45pm
    - Jack5
      
      But then, Churchill 5ft 6in, while Hitler was over 5ft 9in and Osama bin Laden was 6ft 4in.
      
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      March 16, 2019 10:32pm
Lee C

49 dead, and it’s all about lazza, and his POV?

Yeah, makes sense.
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March 16, 2019 6:12pm
RW Capitalist

Got this on my EMail
From Simon Bridges
Dear John —

Our country is in mourning, and my heart goes out to the people of Christchurch.

The events of yesterday were an unprovoked attack on the very freedoms we hold dear, and we condemn those who would use violence and atrocity against our fellow brothers and sisters.

To the victims, their families and friends, and the wider community, know that we stand with you. We share your pain, grief, and outrage that this has happened to you in your home.

No one in our country should live in fear. No matter their race, religion or beliefs.

Terrorism and extremism have no place in New Zealand, and together we will defend the Kiwi values of peace, compassion, and hope that we all share. We stand ready to support the Government in any way we can.

I want to pay tribute to the hardworking emergency services on the ground in Christchurch, particularly the New Zealand Police, St John Ambulance, and hospital staff. Your bravery represents the very best of our country in our time of need.

For those that need any assistance, I urge you to get in touch with the mental health helpline ‘Need to Talk’ by calling 0800 1737 1737 or texting 1737, or by calling Victim Support on 0800 842 846.

A give-a-little page has also been setup to support the victims of the attack, you can find it here.

Please take this time to talk with family, check on your neighbours, and reach out to friends. The safety, security, and support of our community is paramount.

Regards,

Simon
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March 16, 2019 7:25pm
niggly

Bit concerned about the welfare of that Maori dude who lives next door to one of the mosques and helped escaping worshipers by hiding them in his house.

He has seen truly gruesome scenes of the dead and injured including children and is also hurting because he couldn’t do more to help, and it seems he then wasn’t able to assist the survivors further presumably as it was too overwhelming, so apart from making him stay with a friend (as his house is now behind the cordon) would anyone know what support services should be offered to him? MSM don’t seem to be asking these questions.
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March 16, 2019 9:12pm
Lee C

Cheap.
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March 17, 2019 6:49am
Happychappy

Day by day goes by on this blog and DigNap15 is allowed to spew his racial remarks on woman, Muslims and Maori and people obviously like and agree with his remarks judging by the upticks he gets. Well I find in the barbaric happening of the 15th March 2019 that his remarks over Muslims is hate and can’t understand why our host has not reprimanded for his selfish comment’s.
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March 17, 2019 8:12am
lazza

Pointless my continuing with a POV that clearly is at odds with the vast majority of KB contributors.

I do not resile from any of my observations counselling fair,balanced neither left or right bias overall.

Sadly at present KB is an echo chamber of predominantly white supremacist right wing invective … hardly fair or balanced!

Soooo an appeal to our sponsor(God Bless him).

DPF’s excellent input of public policy backed by understandable stats and metrics is what I read KB for. Much of the rest (above) is a bloody disgrace and an affront to any humanist sensitivities.

Here’s the thing for David.

Introduce moderation please! based on cleansing the KB blog of material that promotes both right or left wing ideologies that by general consensus (DPF’s judgment will do fine) are antithetical to what all decent Kiws consider acceptable.

A judgemental assessment I’ll concede, but way better than what we have at present.

Tick away but David … its your! call.
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March 17, 2019 10:30am

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