General Debate 15 May 2020

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krazykiwi

“Got.lieb” / [gátlìb]/ verb. Got.lieb.ed
1. Characterised by continuous defence the otherwise indefensible; 2. Given to unrestricted use of ‘whataboutism’ in debate; 3. “Gotliebed” – often cited in response to being defended by only one party. Usage: “I’ve been Gotliebed”
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May 15, 2020 8:00am
- Tony Stuart
  
  Ouch! Cruel, but undeniably fair KK 😀
  
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  May 15, 2020 8:09am
- mikenmildagain
  
  Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
  That’s quite an impressive effort to put into one whinge.
  
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  May 15, 2020 8:14am
  - Simon
    
    “That’s quite an impressive effort to put into one whinge.”
    
    Why so humorless?
    
    Your point would be just flag him a member of Ardern cult and leave it at that.
    
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    May 15, 2020 8:28am
    - Simon
      
      Good ole Mike. Whenever DPF takes the piss about Brian Tamaki there is Mike whooping it up. But someone takes the piss out of an Ardern cult follower he gets all defensive and prissy.
      
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      May 15, 2020 9:09am
  - Komata
    
    MM@0814
    
    Admit it; you’re only jealous because you haven’t been obnoxious-enough (yet) to be accredited with such an ‘honour’ and linguistic ‘immortality’.
    
    No doubt we will now see an increase in your activities as you try to achieve similar ‘notoriety’.
    
    (Just saying).
    
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    May 15, 2020 8:37am
  - JibberJabber
    
    That`s high praise indeed, coming from an expert Lefty WawaWhataboutist.
    
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    May 15, 2020 8:43am
    - Kiwi Dave
      
      Praise indeed! I upticked him fore acknowlegding the perfectionism witch underlies every comment on KB.
      
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      May 15, 2020 2:17pm
  - krazykiwi
    
    When it comes to whinges milky, I favour quality over quantity, unlike your good self. Still, I’m hopeful there will be a post on military history sometime soon, thereby unleashing you to string more than 10 words together 🙂
    
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    May 15, 2020 8:54am
    - mikenmildagain
      
      Stand by…
      
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      May 15, 2020 12:24pm
  - BeeJay
    
    Just love MikenMild! I uptick him as much as I downtick! I’m sure he’s just a windup merchant who takes the piss just to get bloggers going!
    
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    May 15, 2020 12:50pm
    - mikenmildagain
      
      Damn – that blows my cover…
      Some people think trolling is a bad thing. I beg to differ.
      
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      May 15, 2020 3:14pm
- Komata
  
  KK@0800
  
  I guess it’s one way to achieve ‘immortality’.
  
  Thank you.
  
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  May 15, 2020 8:34am
- Lee C
  
  I find him reasonably calm – a bit deluded, yes, but I’ve seen a few come and go over the years – I swear they are getting more avuncular as time goes on – or maybe I am…
  
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  May 15, 2020 8:48am
- Simon Gotlieb
  
  I feel truly honored to be recognised by the Kiwiblog community in this way. It makes all my efforts seem worthwhile.
  
  Thanks krazykiwi. I feel truly blessed to be able to give you something to make your meaningless life a little more worthwhile 😉
  
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  May 15, 2020 10:20am
- SGA
  
  2. Given to unrestricted use of ‘whataboutism’ in debate;
  
  On Kiwiblog – how dare he! 🙂
  
  Seriously, that seems unfair. What about (omg, it’s happened to me too)…
  
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  May 15, 2020 12:52pm
- MCos
  
  Translation
  
  You don’t want to listen to an alternate point of view.
  
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  May 15, 2020 2:57pm
PhilBest

Excellent tip from Muriel Newman’s latest newsletter:
https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/05/08/the-lockdowns-still-arent-working/
Dr Wilfred Reilly, an Assistant Professor of Political Science at Kentucky State University, has analysed the effectiveness of government strategies, by comparing the outcomes in states that imposed strict lockdowns with those that didn’t. He found, there is “little empirical evidence that lockdowns prevent the spread of COVID-19 better than well done social distancing measures”.

Essentially while Dr Reilly discovered that both temperature and population density had a meaningful impact on the incidence of the virus, with warmer states with lower populations having significantly fewer cases and deaths (something that could explain why New Zealand and Australia have fared so well), he found government strategy had little impact: “While social-distancing measures – like wearing a light medical mask or washing hands – might be annoying, the practical impact of country-wide lockdowns has been utterly devastating,”
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May 15, 2020 8:00am
- PhilBest
  
  Here is an excellent analysis of the global correlation between climate types and COVID-19 severity
  
  https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.23.20040501v3
  
  “…Covid-19 growth rates peaked in temperate regions of the Northern Hemisphere with mean temperature of ~5 C, and specific humidity of 4-6 g/m3 during the outbreak period, while they were lower both in warmer/wetter and colder/dryer regions…”
  
  These authors published this on 23 March. Their conclusions are still valid.
  
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  May 15, 2020 8:05am
  - Loddenthinks
    
    The correlation between NZ and Australian outcomes with similar UV levels, average temperatures over 18 degrees, and in the same season are undeniable.
    
    Causation is bolstered by the fact that the lockdown restrictions (and in particular Australia’s lack of adherence to them) were very different between the two countries.
    
    We know that UV is a powerful tool for disinfecting and killing bacteria and viruses, it’s used for that exact purpose medically, and we know that Australia and UV have higher UV rates than most other countries. QED.
    
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    May 15, 2020 8:40am
    - Handyman
      
      So the best public health advice should be to encourage global warming and to bring back the Ozone hole? Oh and bring back plastic bags at checkout to replace those germy reusable bags.
      
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      May 15, 2020 8:48am
      - PhilBest
        
        Ironically, given that there is far more land mass at northern latitudes than anywhere else, and that the bulk of humanity is clustered there, global warming would indeed create an improvement for most of humanity, and would also render far more cold land arable, than it would render arid land non-arable.
        
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        May 15, 2020 9:26am
    - Ruawai
      
      Are you saying Jacinda didn’t save us??
      
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      May 15, 2020 9:05am
  - JackRabbit
    
    None of this is surprising really. Higher temperatures mean faster rate of evaporation of droplets / mini droplets / vapour as it expells from the body. And quicker evaporation inside the lungs as well.
    
    Another factor is how much sludge (mucous with unwanted particles) is in the lungs and the beat rate of Cilia in the lungs and air ways. Excess mucous and/or pollution slow the Cilia.
    
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    May 15, 2020 9:32am
  - SGA
    
    @Philbest
    Phil, I followed your link – it’s a preprint (hasn’t had the scrutiny of peer review – a number of your links seem to have been, btw) and as such should be treated with caution. I also notice that their Abstract ended with what seems a specific warning for us.
    “The strong relationship between local climate and Covid-19 growth rates suggests the possibility of seasonal variation in the spatial pattern of outbreaks, with temperate regions of the Southern Hemisphere becoming at particular risk of severe outbreaks during the austral autumn-winter.”
    
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    May 15, 2020 9:34am
    - PhilBest
      
      Indeed I noticed that, and I have been saying something like that occasionally. If we lost our heads over the progress of this virus in nice summertime conditions, what might we do in winter?
      
      It’s hard to fault those authors observations; it seemed self-evident to me that there was an environmental connection, which is why I went looking for anyone publishing analysis on the subject.
      
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      May 15, 2020 5:23pm
- Brian McDonald
  
  You were the one who didn’t recognize that social density was a factor in the Australian and NZ numbers – forget?
  
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  May 15, 2020 8:36am
  - PhilBest
    
    Are you talking about me? I certainly did recognize that all along, as yet another factor among many to our advantage, rendering lockdown more unnecessary than anywhere else in the world.
    
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    May 15, 2020 9:27am
fernglas

There has been very little discussion around what will happen if and when a vaccine is developed. Will it be mandatory, or will the anti-vax mob try to persuade the masses that it is dangerous, so that takeup will be less than needed for communal immunity. This article explores the anti-vax movement and provides some food for thought.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/13/technology/coronavirus-vaccine-disinformation.html
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May 15, 2020 8:09am
- krazykiwi
  
  You are exhibiting a a dangerous type of thinking fernglas. I support MMR vaccination as there is a proven record of its efficacy, and there is a proven record of the criminality of Andrew Wakefield when he falsified test results in support of his thesis.
  
  But, and it’s a huge but, this does not mean that all new vaccinations are automatically ‘safe’, nor does it mean that scrutiny is unjustified. However that exactly what is asserted when people decry anti-vaxers at every turn.
  
  I would expect a higher bar for proven clinical efficacy, and absence of unintended consequences if it is proposed that a new drug is to be mandated. I would hope that all thinking people would do likewise.
  
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  May 15, 2020 8:21am
  - The Proper Ghandi
    
    It could be 10 or 20 years, if ever, before there is a vaccine. Most viruses never have a vaccine developed. There are something like six viruses in the same family as covid-19, none of which have a vaccine. To simplify, all a vaccine is is antibodies. Other than via a vaccine, the only way to develop antibodies is exposure to the virus and natural antibodies result.
    
    We are totally deluding ourselves if we think that we have “beaten” the virus. Governments are destroying economies merely to delay the inevitable. It hasn’t gone anywhere, it is just not infecting that many people right now. Look at the relevant data again: only a 0.04% fatality rate in NZ. That is effectively nothing.
    
    Stanford University’s Dr Jay Bhattacharya
    
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=289NWm85eas&t=2391s
    
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    May 15, 2020 9:45am
    - Ed Snack
      
      Actually probable better to say that a vaccine is a substitute for the “real” virus and that it generates an immune response in the body that will then attack the real virus if it appears. Vaccines can be made from the target virus itself, typically inactivated, made essentially harmless by some method, or actually dead. Or it can utilize parts of the virus, usually proteins from the external envelope of the virus. With this CV many of the prospective vaccines are targeting the so called Spike (or “S”) protein that is found on the coat of the CV.
      
      There are reasons to develop vaccines, and often this involves economic ones because it isn’t necessarily cheap or easy to do so. For the other Corona Viruses, both SARS and MERS don’t have viruses as they proved to be poor spreaders and they could therefore be relatively easily contained by non-vaccine methods. The CV’s that cause colds don’t have a vaccine, and I suggest that this is because CV’s cause a minority of colds (possibly around 30-35%) and so a vaccine would appear ineffective and quite possibly not economic. Colds are also very, very rarely serious despite the inconvenience. Ally that with the fact that vaccines against the rhinoviruses that do cause the majority of colds would be difficult if even possible, then a vaccine against “colds” generally is likely not an economic proposition.
      
      But the BCV’s (Beta Corona Viruses) are not hyper variable like the Influenza or Rhinovirus families, and a vaccine is definitely possible. And the main barrier, the economic one, seems not to be an issue. So I suggest that it is likely that we will have a vaccine, and quite possibly within 12 months. I suspect that the first available vaccines will be less than 100% effective but that better ones will be released in time.
      
      So if we can arrange for the economy to function so as to best protect those genuinely at risk form this CV, then a 12 month or so wait is not unreasonable.
      
      AS I see it though, unless there are ongoing special protections (ie some from of strict quarantine) for elderly folks then just accepting that the virus will become a chronic infection will basically cull our elderly population by killing 30-50% within a year, with a possible >75% cull of those aged 80+. Is that desirable ?
      
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      May 15, 2020 10:52am
      - krazykiwi
        
        Informative stuff Ed. Thanks. From my research I’d suggest that ‘cull’ figures you’ve noted are orders of magnitude higher than what has been experienced in countries that publish weekly mortality statistics. Whatever the rate, desirability can only be assessed relative to the human costs of the other options, and as we’re starting to see, the human cost of locking up a 99.99% uninfected population is high, and will continue to climb long after Covid-19 has become a routine part of the ILI calendar.
        
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        May 15, 2020 2:05pm
  - The Proper Ghandi
    
    It’s one thing to be an “ant-vaxxer” when it is unjustified, but another to be very suspicious about a “cure” that the elites want forced on the entire global population, when the data shows us that it’s necessity has not been demonstrated, but is based on a propaganda campaign of control-through-fear.
    
    The typical anti-vaxxers seem to rail against diseases that have been shown to be highly contagious with quite serious, lasting effects. This is very different. We now have the data to see that Covid-19 had been initially hyped out of all proportion, with wildly inaccurate prognostications that have all universally fallen far, far short, even going by the official figures.
    
    I think the people who cannot see something fishy going on here are the deluded ones.
    
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    May 15, 2020 10:01am
  - Durden
    
    Is efficacy of 29% and 9% acceptable? Why don’t they make this explicit when recommending you get your annual jab ? UK found:
    “As the Centers for Disease Control recently reported, the 2018-2019 seasonal flu vaccine was among the least effective in years, at 29% effective overall and just 9% in the second half of the season.”
    
    https://innovation.ox.ac.uk/news/blue-water-vaccines-developing-universal-flu-vaccine-completes-7m-financing-following-successful-preclinical-study/
    
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    May 15, 2020 1:05pm
- Simon
  
  Fake news Comrade just a waste of time regardless of the subject. MSM wasted any credibility on running with fake political narratives for the last 4 years.
  
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  May 15, 2020 8:25am
- Andrei
  
  You vaccinate herd animals fernglass – for human beings vaccinations for every ailment willy nilly is not effective but it does generate fortune for drug companies – they are not the universal panacea for every disease people are subject to.
  
  Reasearch for vaccines against corona virues has been going on for years with little success – the reason being perhaps the harm caused by these viruses it not the virus itself but an over response by the bodies own immune system to its prescence. Thus vaccination in this case does more harm than good or so it seems from existing research into the matter
  
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  May 15, 2020 8:33am
  - Ed Snack
    
    Andrei, as I explain above the reason no vaccine against a BCV has been produced is probably economic. If the BCV does cause serious illness like SARS and MERS then our experience has been that these viruses do not spread fast and can be controlled by isolation & quarantine – MERS was very deadly with a 30-40% kill rate, but there were less than 2,000 cases. SARS was less deadly and did affect more people, but again was essentially eliminated by physical controls.
    
    And the CV’s involved in colds are not lethal and form only a minority of cold cases.
    
    This SARS-CoV-2 virus though seems to have hit an effective combination, it is sufficiently lethal (especially on compromised patients) AND spreads sufficiently well to be a sufficient threat to justify developing a vaccine.
    
    You can’t readily develop vaccines against everything, but you can against most viral complaints. But it has to be economically viable for people to do so. Good examples are Measles, Mumps, and Rubella. They are less lethal than this BCV but sufficiently deadly to be worth the effort; though it helps that none of these viruses are fast mutaters making vaccine production easier. Of course the best examples are from earlier, smallpox and Polio. Smallpox used to be a chronic disease present in Europe with a significant death toll.
    
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    May 15, 2020 11:09am
- north island kiwi
  
  NYT, what trumper describes as FAKE news, did you read the article bro, no bias there, yeah right
  
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  May 15, 2020 8:39am
  - fernglas
    
    Yes I read the article, and no, I don’t rely on Trump to decide what I should and shouldn’t read. As I read it, it is an opinion piece, and is therefore supposed to be biased toward a particular view. I also hope that my critical faculties, as with those of most on this blog, are capable of sorting the wheat from the chaff. The way I see it these days is that what is bias to one person can be gospel to another. The trick is to use critical thinking. Try it.
    
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    May 15, 2020 2:14pm
  - Batman
    
    Well this has turned into a dumpster fire of a thread.
    
    The perfect convergence of vaccine fake news, mixed with known scientific risk, and politicised ‘fake news’ that suits a particular view point.
    
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    May 15, 2020 2:18pm
- bruceavon
  
  Yeah. I read that too. A lot of nutters out there. Anti Vaxxers are zealous and organised. The loony Bill Gates conspiracies are spreading too, which annoys me. Gates probably knows more about the virus than any other citizen non-scientist and has been warning about a pandemic from a novel corona virus for years. And has put in countless millions of his own money into vaccine research, and yet this baseless rubbish is rampant.
  
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  May 15, 2020 8:43am
  - tf78
    
    Isn’t that how Bill makes a lot of his money when successfully funding such things. They haven’t found a cure for Aids yet and that research has been going on for years – think Clinton Foundation.
    
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    May 15, 2020 9:29am
    - bruceavon
      
      No. bill gates makes a lot of money because he invented the operating system on almost every computer. He makes bugger all from trying to wipe out disease in Africa or funding vaccines. And he has no need for any money, he gives half of it away a still has more than he can ever use.
      
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      May 15, 2020 11:44am
  - PhilBest
    
    The basis for suspicion, includes, what else does Bill Gates believe in? Does he believe the planet is over-populated? What does he believe would be justifiable to change that? And do we have a class of people who agree on principle, who are highly active in politics and advocacy? Should we view anything they say, completely separately to this consideration?
    
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    May 15, 2020 9:32am
  - Lee C
    
    https://youtu.be/QcUAG6t5aN8
    
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    May 15, 2020 9:39am
    - bruceavon
      
      Really? So I am supposed to believe some long ginger haired guy talking to his computer, who I have no idea who he is, if he has any qualifications etc versus the countless articles debunking these theories that trace their origins, dissect them and even interview Gates. This guy is off course making money out of this also, like the other people like Alex Jones.
      
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      May 15, 2020 10:02am
  - The Proper Ghandi
    
    Any thinking person can entertain a conspiracy theory, because they occur all the time. Not every time, but the averages, reason and common sense would all indicate that people work together to further their own interests at the expense of others. It’s not rocket science.
    
    Gates owns the patents to many medicines and will own the patent to a vaccine if he develops one. But I’m sure it has nothing to do with the money. Always follow the money.
    
    The billionaires are doing very well out of the mass lock downs, as the last vestiges of small competitors get eaten up by them. Let’s just stay at home and get everything via Amazon, right? Gates gave away his Windows software didn’t he?
    
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    May 15, 2020 9:49am
- KevO'Brien
  
  Keep your eye on Bill Gates, his family are eugenicists who believe people should only exist in their approved forms.
  Bill is the classic high achieving programmer.His target was to be the richest in the world. He omitted his personal quality control.
  
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  May 15, 2020 8:51am
  - bruceavon
    
    Thanks for that, but no thanks. I have read everything there is about Bill Gates over the years and none of the current crop of stupid conspiracy theories have any credibility. Just trace them back to where they started from. But there seems to be an industry developing that makes money from spreading them. And once Alex Jones starts yell them out, I know they are bound to be rubbish. He was after all the man who spread the story that Hillary Clinton was running a pedophile ring from underneath a pizza shop.
    
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    May 15, 2020 9:06am
    - KevO'Brien
      
      I have worked with computer people with outstanding coding abilities but with minds unfit for general purposes. I am not reliant on Alex Jones–Gates fits well a mould I well know.
      
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      May 15, 2020 11:47am
- Critical Thinker
  
  “My body, My choice!”
  
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  May 15, 2020 9:25am
- All_on_Red
  
  I don’t think we will ever have a Vaccine. From what I’ve seen getting them for Corona viruses is very difficult. Although I would be delighted to be wrong.
  I suspect the best we will get is treatments which minimise the effects.
  
  So, as a Country, where do we go from here?
  Stay locked up forever?
  
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  May 15, 2020 9:39am
  - Sir Cullen's Sidekick
    
    Yep, All_on_Red bro. That is the only way Cindy can save you from certain death. She will give you free money and that is all Sheeple can ask for.
    
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    May 15, 2020 9:59am
  - UrbanNeocolonialist
    
    Convalescent plasma therapy looks like it can save most people who end up with severe cases using centrifugally separated blood plasma from people who have milder cases and recover, it’s old technology that’s been around for decades and is reasonably easy to roll out.
    
    early use of hydroxychloroquine with zinc is also getting more and more positive results from testing.
    
    Between them seems likely that risk of death will be bought right down to perhaps flu-like levels and world can then resume normal activities.
    
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    May 15, 2020 10:10am
  - Ed Snack
    
    Disagree, CV’s as an RNA virus are not as easy as DNA viruses, but it is possible. CV’s are not hyper variable with self contained RNA sections that can be swapped like Influenza viruses. So quite feasible. Practical ? Well, we will have to find out.
    
    Certainly worth trying because otherwise, we say to anyone elderly with co-morbidities “goodbye”.
    
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    May 15, 2020 11:28am
- Than
  
  That is at least one bright spot in this chaos – the percentage needed for herd immunity from coronavirus is likely to be a lower than for some other diseases.
  
  The formula for determining what percent of a population need to be immune to have herd immunity is pretty simple; % = 1 – (1 / R0)
  
  (Where R0 is the average number of people an infected person will pass the infection on to if no preventative measures are taken.)
  
  For an extremely contagious disease like measles R0 is around 12-18, so you need something like 90-95% of the population to be immune to have herd immunity. With that high a percentage needed, it only takes a small number of anti-vaxxers (or people just unaware/lazy/etc.) to get outbreaks like we saw in Auckland and Samoa.
  
  The current best guess for coronavirus’s R0 is between 2 and 3, in which case it would require around 50-70% uptake to have herd immunity. So hopefully a few fringe conspiracy theorists refusing the vaccine won’t have any effect on the rest of us.
  
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  May 15, 2020 10:02am
  - Ed Snack
    
    But it isn’t “herd immunity” in that the virus disappears. It means that it remains at a low level as a chronic disease with limited (depending on circumstances, limited can mean a big number) of outbreaks from time to time. Just like measles etc before vaccines.
    
    That is, useful, but one more nasty disease that is around at some level; and one that almost selectively kills the elderly and other vulnerable people. Though it also does kill some youger healthy people and not just by immune system over-reaction.
    
    And it could mutate to a more dangerous form over time – a process certainly helped by being continuously passed around even at a low level.
    
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    May 15, 2020 11:32am
    - Than
      
      Sure, all completely true unfortunately.
      
      But that would still be a big improvement on the situation as it is right now.
      
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      May 15, 2020 12:21pm
- JackRabbit
  
  Guns, Bullets, Li-Ion batteries and Vaccines.
  ———————————————————–
  There are guns and bullets and there are guns and bullets. An air rifle pellet will hurt but unlikely to inflict major damage unless it gets into soft tissue like an eye. At the other end of the scale are hollow point bullets, designed for maximum damage. The type of bullets determine the damage.
  
  Anyone who argues that every bullet carries the same risk simply does not understand bullets.
  
  Anyone who argues that all vaccines have the same level of risk do not understand vaccines.
  
  Li-Ion Batteries:
  ———————-
  You cannot say that all devices powered by Li-Ion batteries are intrinsically safe. If you did, many Samsung owners whose devices spontaneously combusted would disagree, many Spark customers involved in the million dollar Li-ion powered device recall would also disagree, and Richard Hammond, driving the Li-Ion powered Rimac Concept One that burned on impact, and continued to re-ignite for days, would also disagree.
  
  Anyone who argues that all Li-Ion batteries or implementation carry a similar degree of risk, do no understand Li-Ion batteries.
  
  Anyone who argues that all vaccines have the same level of risk do not understand vaccines.
  
  Vaccines:
  ————-
  If you check the fine print you will find that ALL medical authorities acknowledge the vaccines are not foolproof, and that there is risk, and ultimately it is your choice. Every year there are court ordered payouts in the millions over permanent damage and death caused by vaccines.
  
  Anyone who argues that all vaccines are safe, have not bothered to do research.
  
  There are vaccines and there are vaccines.
  ———————————————————
  Some vaccines like tetanus and measles do what they are supposed to do and have minimal aside effects.
  
  Immunizing a child with ten vaccines at once would be like installing ten pieces of software at the same time. It would wreck your computer, or cause system failure, which is why Operating Systems logically prevent that from occurring.
  
  Logic would dictate that trying to inject more then one vaccine at the same time, and that modifies the immune system could cause system failure.
  
  Many vaccines cannot be tested on humans until they are, and the millions of combinations of vaccines crossovers cannot either.
  
  Some vaccines work by introducing trace amounts of the virus, for the body to develop immunity to. Homeopathics work on a similar but more diluted.
  
  More modern vaccines, attempt to modify the immune response, in some cases killing off existing anti-bodies that are “in the way” in order to allow the “wanted” anti-bodies to develop. A very dangerous game indeed, as drug companies try to play “god” without knowing all the millions of possible combinations. Its Russian Roulette.
  
  The more sophisticated the vaccines, and the more they attempt to deviate from the ethical vaccine route, the more side issues and long term affects appear.
  
  Natural Immunity:
  ————————-
  There is another important point. All sites on the body where there is naturally occurring contact with other humans or the environment, the body has natural defences. The nose, throat, lungs, sex organic etc. The body has no natural defence against anything directly injected into the bloodstream, as it bypasses the above mentioned defence routes.
  
  It is significant that Homeopathics are always orally administered but vaccines are injected directly. Vaccines are designed to trigger an immune response, so if you want the lungs to develop immunity you would expect a vaccine to be admitted through the airways, and engage the primary defences, not the bloodstream. Ponder that.
  
  The term “Anti-Vaxer”, like “Climate Change Denier” and “Conspiracy Theorist”, is a term invented to discredit opponents, rather than enter into rational debate. It is a term used in a similar way as “Jew”, “Nigger”, “Jafa”, “Pigs” or any other similar term. There is no rationale for it, and identifies the user as being of low intelligence and irrational towards the subject at hand.
  
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  May 15, 2020 10:27am
  - Ed Snack
    
    Bullshit on stilts. Of course vaccines have a risk. I even know someone who’s child had a nasty vaccine reaction (brain swelling, luckily relatively minor and controlled, but very scary).
    
    No one reasonable argues that there are no risks, but like me they would argue that when studied, the risks of no vaccine outweigh the risk of the vaccine. Measles, what was it, 80 children died in Samoa from Measles, because they hadn’t been vaccinated ? THAT is a risk far greater than any putative risk from the MMR vaccine.
    
    And just a point, some vaccines are administered orally (I had the Salk oral Polio vaccine); but most are injected because that is a more direct router to get to the immune system. The human immune system is everywhere in your body, it isn’t discrete though it may be more active in differing ways at various places. By priming the immune system by injection, the lung cells will have access to the antibodies produced when encountered via inhaled breath.
    
    Don’t forget too, that you never actually take in any homeopathic medicines, it is diluted to literal invisibility with less than a 1% chance that any of the homeopathic element actually remains in the administered dose. And no, water does not have memory, pure hokum.
    
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    May 15, 2020 11:41am
    - Ian Boag
      
      IIRC the original Salk polio vaccine was a shot. I think the later oral one was the Sabin vaccine. I had both of them at school ….. intermediate and high school. Not that it really matters ….
      
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      May 15, 2020 11:53am
    - JackRabbit
      
      As per my post, I am not advocating refusing to take vaccinations that are shown to work and that are relatively benign in after effects. You need to read objectively and in full, instead of getting your glasses all steamed up on the first few words.
      
      Science, Ed, exspecially that based on “The Scientific Method”, is very objective. There is no place in Science for subjectivity, indignation or rage.
      
      “And no, water does not have memory, pure hokum.”
      
      All virus cells contain “template imprints” of the virus for it to grow into a full bodied nanite virus.
      Those “template imprints” rely exclusively on memory structures that as yet man does not fully understand.
      
      And scientist have taken molecular photos of water cell structures under various influeces and there is clear proof that water does have a memory.
      
      If you do not believe that water and all living cells do not have memory, then Covid-19 would not be a threat. You can claim the existence of a “thing”, based on denial of the existence of the underlying “things”.
      
      I have seen homeopathics work in an astounding number of cases, that normal medicine failed to fix. But like in any field of science, there will quacks. You just have to know the difference. Knowing requires understanding, not the pigheadedness you are currently demonstrating.
      
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      May 15, 2020 12:33pm
    - dave_c_
      
      So pray tell me – Why is it that not one company producing vaccines has EVER been prepared to disclose the composition of said concoction.
      Dont give me the bullshit that it is proprietary knowledge . . blah de blah.
      The very fact that not one company is prepared to disclose such composition, is enough for me to doubt from the outset their true agenda’s.
      
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      May 15, 2020 5:51pm
  - Jaywalk
    
    “Immunizing a child with ten vaccines at once would be like installing ten pieces of software at the same time. It would wreck your computer, or cause system failure, which is why Operating Systems logically prevent that from occurring.”
    
    Is actually complete rot. An infant is colonised with thousands of bacteria at birth, inside the uterus it is sterile and they cope just fine. Children are considered immunologically naive though, just simply because they haven’t encountered all the pathogens adults have and had a chance to develop immunity. The immune system is quite a amazing and copes with bacteria and viruses all the time, it’s more that pathogens can and will overwhelm it if you aren’t immune by either being ill with something earlier or being vaccinated.
    
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    May 15, 2020 8:52pm
- Rachael Membery
  
  I will plump for natural immunity. I don’t fear exposure to it, in fact, if you do succumb it sounds quick. Or is that wrong?
  
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  May 15, 2020 11:28am
  - fernglas
    
    No, it takes weeks to die. There are graphs around but I could summarise them by saying that once you go into intensive care you will be there for weeks, not days.
    
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    May 15, 2020 2:20pm
    - info@cruzpro.com
      
      In my opinion that is still better than wasting away over a long period of time with cancer or Alzheimer’s or a number of other nasty diseases.
      
      Both my parents went that way and it was pretty ugly.
      
      I understand that most people are renderred unconscious when put onto the ventillator.
      
      I’m 73 and have had an absolutely amazing life with an amazing wife. Don’t really want it to end yet but couldn’t complain if it did.
      
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      May 15, 2020 5:26pm
wilderbeast

I’ve woken up this morning with a bit more clarity (perhaps!) than I had last night. The thing that strikes me is we now know the true cost of Ardern’s reluctance to open up NZ any sooner than she did – it’s tens of billions of dollars and a generation of debt. They locked us down; Robertson said this would be a recession like no other; and then they blew 20 years of careful stewardship of the Crown accounts. And why – when was the last case of community transmission? I can’t recall the last one, must have been at least a month ago…
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May 15, 2020 8:10am
- Ruahine
  
  This pack of morons allowed this virus to come into the country. It is not Myrtyle Rust. They allowed it to come in almost deliberately because they are lazy.
  When it came smarter people recocognised how this could be used to their advantage. Their will be many more weasel words spoken by Ardern and Peters about ‘haven’t we done well’. Virtually all the people in New Zealand who became infected was because of the Government’s slackness.
  
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  May 15, 2020 8:33am
  - MCos
    
    “This pack of morons allowed this virus to come into the country.“
    So, what are you saying?
    We should have closed the borders to all and sundry the moment the virus reared it’s ugly head?
    Including New Zealanders because we certainly didn’t have the capacity to quarantine all arrives.
    We couldn’t test anyone because we didn’t have the tests back then.
    
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    May 15, 2020 9:29am
    - BananaLlama
      
      We should have closed the borders sooner.
      Fair enough Gov didn’t know in January and early February because our “Friends” in the CCP did everything they could to obfuscate unless you were paying close attention. Once we saw how bad it was in Europe we shouldn’t have been mucking around. Personally i blame the CCP for the infection but i can put some blame on our government.
      
      You can see the timeline and that Gov were increasing the number of restrictions through the entire of March but we still had tourists flouting our self quarantine procedures. That is the point when they should have been told to fuck off were full.
      Instead they kind of went soft cock through Late February and early March allowing an increasingly large number of infected to arrive in the country some of whoam refused to self isolate.
      In the end due to lack of effective quarantine procedures we all ended up locked in our homes under pain of imprisonment. If you really wanted to stop the spread then the beginning of March was the only viable window because after that the number of cases just started sky rocketing and it was too late.
      
      So the question is why did it take until late March to do something when there were giant red alarm bells going off all around the world.
      
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      May 15, 2020 11:44am
  - Sir Cullen's Sidekick
    
    The drunken dwarf is simply a puppet in Cindy’s hand. He has no control.
    
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    May 15, 2020 10:01am
  - JackRabbit
    
    Steady on, Ruahine. Viruses happen. If Covid-19 was manufactured, that is another issue. But the idea of being able to totally prevent virus spread is crazy. We can’t stop the flu. There are lots of things we can’t stop.
    
    If Covid-19 was as potent as Mx Ardern has suggested, then yes, border controls should have be implemented and I’m with you on that.
    
    However Covid-19 was here in NZ late last year.
    Covid-19 NZ ver 1.21, is not the same as the NY version.
    
    If we had implemented safe hand washing and stop random exchanges of body fluid we would have been OK.
    
    Not so good for the unrelenting Tinder, Swinger or LGBTQI hugging brigade though.
    
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    May 15, 2020 10:56am
    - Rachael Membery
      
      Ah well, sacrifices need to be made after all. Better the few than the many.
      
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      May 15, 2020 11:33am
  - Ed Snack
    
    Wrong, unless NZ had been prescient enough to go for a full embargo as early as mid-January, and to have compulsorily separately quarantined every arriving person (NZ citizens essentially have to be allowed entry) into a strict isolation facility, the virus would have arrived. There are individuals with zero symptoms who it seems can spread it.
    
    And in mid January, I think it is fair to say that no one really understood enough to make that call. Taiwan moved pretty quickly and did a great job, but they still had some cases and deaths.
    
    Overall, this government did not do a terrible job – and I know that will be an unpopular view with many. They did miss some important actions – just allowing people in with a voluntary self isolation was foolish, and the contact tracking a bit of a joke. But they acted/reacted like most countries governments did when faced with a situation they didn’t really understand. By no means perfect and not as wonderful as they want to portray, but not as bad as they could have.
    
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    May 15, 2020 11:48am
    - fernglas
      
      It depends on whether the “elimination” path was the right one to go down. If it was, the Government has done one of the best jobs in the world. If it wasn’t, one of the worst. Only time will tell.
      
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      May 15, 2020 2:25pm
  - info@cruzpro.com
    
    I’m not a Labour government lover but I don’t believe for a second that keeping this virus out of the country would have been possible. Not a chance!
    
    Everyone will be looking to see how different strategies in different countries work in the long term.
    
    Sweden vs New Zealand as polar opposites in how they handled the pandemic will be particularly interesting to analyze.
    
    In the end it will be hindsight and it’s easy to make judgements once the facts are clear.
    
    If this kind of thing is going to be more common in the future at least we will (hopefully) learn how to act the next time.
    
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    May 15, 2020 5:40pm
    - mikenmildagain
      
      Sorry, that’s a rational response. Kiwiblog’s amateur epidemiologists have already determined that the NZ government did everything wrong.
      
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      May 15, 2020 5:59pm
- Brian McDonald
  
  Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
  Ahh, that was the point of the lockdown – to stop community transmission.
  
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  May 15, 2020 8:37am
  - Loddenthinks
    
    Excellent point. By your logic we should remain in Level 4 lockdown forever, to ensure we never get community transmission – simples!
    
    If you’re really not that stupid, the very valid point being raised was whether we stayed in lockdown for too long. The evidence very clearly suggests that we did. As Duncan Garner asked the PM a couple of weeks ago, this week looks a lot like last week, and next week will look a lot like this week. What numbers do you need to see before you can ease the restrictions?
    
    Her reply was as patronising and ill-thought out as yours.
    
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    May 15, 2020 8:44am
    - Brian McDonald
      
      Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
      Thanks for the anonymous insult. I note you chose an anonymous name meant to imply some special intellect, an elevation above normal even. A gambler ‘groupie’ even. Perhaps you should have taken a name from the bargain bin instead of pretending you have some special intellect before showing that you do not. Perhaps ‘wooden’ indicating a poor lack of movement or fluidity in thinking was more appropriate.
      Supporting stifling community transmission doesn’t equate to supporting the logic forever, and that was never the intention – but perhaps you’d like to show me where it was Loddie old whiskers?
      
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      May 15, 2020 9:02am
      - Lee C
        
        Whoo Brian where’s the ‘kindness’, mate?
        
        Are you having a day off?
        
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        May 15, 2020 9:18am
      - gravedodger
        
        Don’t be so moronic Brian, there are many reasons for avoiding using one’s name anywhere on the net , protection of others more vulnerable, as in my choice being but one.
        Your response implies a lower value for some others comments in using an anonymous title and that is bs.
        
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        May 15, 2020 9:36am
      - tf78
        
        Looked what happened with the Spanish Flu when San Francisco went into lock down – it swept back and wiped thousands out. Total lock down was a bad move.
        Why did they keep the supermarkets open for people to wonder freely around but space you out before entry – any sign of community transmission from them.
        
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        May 15, 2020 9:39am
      - Libertarians are right
        
        Sorry Brian but your argument is utterly stupid. There is a very real reason why people on the right use pseudonyms. The risk of attack for using your real name from activists on the Left is very dangerous. It doesn’t mean we don’t back our beliefs 100% or mean that we think there’s anything wrong with them. It just means that we don’t want to be disproportionately attacked over our beliefs. Look at that idiot Israel Folau, some scumbag activist intentionally asked him a loaded question about his religious beliefs and his career was all but destroyed over it. The Left are nasty. I know you don’t understand it because it doesn’t happen to you and you probably even believe the attacks are justified.
        
        As for your community transmission argument, it fails simply because, even before the lockdown, there was very little community transmission. You are assuming something that had no basis in local evidence.
        
        Given the information we had, I don’t believe a lockdown was the wrong thing to do but it should have been Level 3, shouldn’t have been as long and we should have had a quarantine in place much earlier (which may have completely mitigated the need to destroy our economy at all – outside of tourism but even then, we would have had options).
        
        If only the Government had listened to National and ACT when they were begging them to go early and go hard.
        
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        May 15, 2020 9:43am
      - Ed Snack
        
        tf78, you need to look more widely. There are lots of places that implemented fairly simple “social distancing” that did far better with the 1918 epidemic than places that implemented no controls.
        
        The 1918 flu eventually burnt itself out, and without infecting everyone. In NZ there were local entry restrictions that saved lives – I think the Urewera was protected in that way.
        
        Full lockdown maybe wasn’t a good idea, but limiting the spread by practical means probably was.
        
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        May 15, 2020 11:52am
      - Loddenthinks
        
        Since we seem to be conversing on a personal level, I’m not a gambling groupie and you can call me Johnny. If you think going by a very common name somehow identifies you, you’re mistaken. If you think posting under your real name makes your comments any more relevant, intelligent, or worthy – you’re wrong.
        
        If I’m supposed to know who you are, I don’t, and I couldn’t care less, but just for fun I Googled the name you post under, and the first 6 hits were the following:
        
        1. A David Bain-loving loser who complained to the NZ Media Council about an article in The Press by Martin van Beynen in which he (correctly in my considered view) labelled David Bain a multiple murderer, and lost.
        
        2. A man who died in 2017 after a brave fight. If that’s you, my condolences.
        
        3. Someone in the Marketing and Communications Team at a company on LinkedIn.
        
        4. An American-born screenwriter.
        
        5. Editor of The Jam
        
        6. A convicted murderer who filed an application for the Royal Prerogative of Mercy on behalf of convicted multiple murderer Scott Watson, and lost.
        
        Given the strong link of people who have killed other people and liking such people, perhaps 1 and 6 are the same person. Either way, posting under what is a very common name means nothing. It’s what you have to say that counts, and in my opinion you need to up your game. Bigly.
        
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        May 15, 2020 9:08pm
    - Jax30
      
      Sorry down ticked by mistake
      
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      May 15, 2020 9:26am
    - Sir Cullen's Sidekick
      
      “What numbers do you need to see before you can ease the restrictions?” – We need to see zero new cases until all the money is spent and all the businesses have gone bankrupt – Cindy school of economics.
      
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      May 15, 2020 10:02am
  - Crisplion
    
    You haven’t been paying attention, have you Brian? The Aussies have achieved a lower infection rate with fewer deaths per million than us, with a fraction of the economic carnage.
    
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    May 15, 2020 8:51am
    - MCos
      
      I wouldn’t be so sure about the damage their economy has sustained.
      https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-28/australia-economy-news-deepest-downturn-in-90-years-is-coming
      https://www.afr.com/policy/economy/australia-nz-have-world-s-best-covid-health-and-economic-response-20200430-p54ofs
      
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      May 15, 2020 9:49am
      - Crisplion
        
        I’ve no doubt things will be pretty bad there too – as they will everywhere. But the fact is that they’ve managed to keep much more of their economy going through this than we have. Also, I’m not sure what their government is planning in terms of recovery, but if they’re sensible, they won’t take the scatter-gun approach of spend-and-hope that ours seems to be engaging in. It probably helps the Aussies that their government isn’t facing an election this year too.
        
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        May 15, 2020 10:37am
    - Simon Gotlieb
      
      They also have the advantage of using a different “scoring” system for Covid-19 – effectively it’s only counted if officially diagnosed, whereas NZ includes probable cases in its count.
      
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      May 15, 2020 10:25am
      - Crisplion
        
        That doesn’t explain the lower deaths per million – which is actually the critical statistic.
        
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        May 15, 2020 10:38am
      - Maggy Wassilieff
        
        Ashley Bloomfield has told us that only our confirmed numbers are submitted to WHO
        
        Today’s cases bring New Zealand’s total number of people who have or have had Covid-19, as well as probable cases, to 1487. The number of confirmed cases – which New Zealand gives to the World Health Organisation – is 1136.
        https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/only-two-new-covid-19-cases-today-but-dr-bloomfield-warns-concerning-behaviours-could-extend-level-3
        
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        May 15, 2020 11:35am
      - herb1
        
        whats the difference between probable and official deaths Simon?
        I’m no Doctor but having seen many dead bodies I’ve kind of figured out dead means dead
        
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        May 15, 2020 11:50am
      - JackRabbit
        
        But those numbers are a crock anyway. Bloomfield simply does not know how many have actually been infected because no anti-body testing has been done.
        
        In any honest science results you ALWAYS put caveats or conditions on everything you publish that contain unknown variables, with footnotes, endnotes or references.
        
        E.g.
        
        Number of deaths: 21
        Number of deaths “with”: 20
        Number of deaths “by”:
        Number confirmed infected(1) : 1136
        
        (1) Number of actual infected is unknown because Covid-19 has been in NZ since late December, based on doctors cases. Since the incubation time and recovery time until a test will come back negative is 14 – 36 days, we may have had 5 to 15 waves of secondary infections and without symptoms. We therefore estimate the number of AIs (asymptomatic infections) to be much higher.
        
        Based on testing by the USC and the Los Angeles County Department of Public Health testing, the suggested range of AIs to be 28 to 55 times the confirmed cases. This would put the NZ potential range of infections between 31,000 and 62,000.
        
        Even if we accept the deaths of the 20 “with Covid-19” as early deaths triggered by Covid-19, it puts the mortality rate at .03 % and the low end and 0.07% at the the top end. Flu mortality rates can vary between 0.1% and 0.2% in a bad flu year.
        
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        May 15, 2020 12:11pm
      - JackRabbit
        
        @Crisplion
        
        Actually deaths per number infected and the R0 figures are what count.
        
        Deaths per million do not take into account infected per million.
        
        What everyone needs to know:
        
        (1) If I get Covid -19 with or without symptoms, what are my chances of survival?
        (2) How do I reduce my risk of infection?
        
        I can probably guess that the Amish are less likely to get it than say a sexually promiscuous group of LGBTQI swingers in San Francisco.
        
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        May 15, 2020 12:17pm
  - PhilBest
    
    But it was obvious even by the time the lockdown was imposed, that NZ did not have a community transmission problem.
    
    One of the first things honest experts with half a brain should have asked themselves, is why does NZ have tens of thousands of arrivals per month from China, especially in January, and yet no sign of a pandemic yet? Suddenly we are expected to believe we are “remote and isolated” when the narrative we had been celebrating for years was NZ not lacking in connectedness thanks to air travel, immigration, tourism and globalization.
    
    Tristan Da Cunha is remote and isolated. Kerguelen is remote and isolated.
    
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    May 15, 2020 9:41am
    - Ed Snack
      
      Not a widespread problem, and that’s almost certainly because we didn’t have many infected people in the country before access was restricted. But we did have quite a few clusters – and these have some notable similarities that point to the method of spread. Noisy, crowded environments with people speaking loudly in close proximity – enabling the spread via aspirated particles that are not free floating aerosols.
      
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      May 15, 2020 11:56am
      - PhilBest
        
        It’s good you are thinking these things through; but do consider; what difference would it make if there was many or few infected people coming into the country, if none of them are causing community transmission, and none of the people they do infect, at cluster events, go out to cause community transmission?
        
        The fact that there was almost no community transmission is evidence that “very few infected people got into NZ”; OR it is evidence that our environment at that time of the year and other factors, forestall community spread.
        
        Until we do antibodies tests on a representative proportion of the people who came in from overseas, it doesn’t make sense to assume “very few infected people” is what made the difference between us and northern hemisphere epicentres. Take Scandinavia for example; are they really fewer degrees of separation from Wuhan than Auckland is? Someone in France died of COVID-19 in December, it is now established!
        
        It should be obvious what is likely to happen to viruses in NZ in the summertime, versus Milan or Stockholm in wintertime. Sunshine kills viruses, and outdoor air disperses them. Hence NZ’s cluster events being all evening events where someone arrived from overseas only shortly before, and those attending didn’t get out in the fresh air and sunshine until the next day. Note too that the southernmost parts of NZ is where temperatures might keep at least some people inside, and doors and windows closed, for more of the time.
        
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        May 15, 2020 5:39pm
- DRHILL
  
  It’s like there’s some sort of election coming up…..oh wait…….
  
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  May 15, 2020 8:40am
- KevO'Brien
  
  What community–13 elderly in the one nursing home? The other 8 were from a few bubbles.
  We may have missed it then
  but how can we do so in future?
  Does the govt have a mandate for an extended lockdown of NZ?
  
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  May 15, 2020 8:44am
  - cmm
    
    So what exactly is the point of “saving” some old, frail, people with co-morbidities from CV19 unless we also save them from:
    * Cancers (multiple)
    * Coronaries & other heart conditions
    * Diabetes
    * Pneumonia
    * ….
    
    It seems to me that selectively freaking out about CV19 is as dumb as only looking for red cars before you cross the road.
    
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    May 15, 2020 8:56am
    - PhilBest
      
      Someone somewhere I read recently used the analogy of a doctor amputating someone’s leg so they wouldn’t get measles, and claiming that the fact the person didn’t get measles as proof of success of his diagnosis.
      
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      May 15, 2020 9:45am
      - JackRabbit
        
        They do that now with Cancer. Cases where no cancer, but the mother had had cancer, so daughter gets her own perfectly healthy breasts lopped off.
        
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        May 15, 2020 12:41pm
    - Rachael Membery
      
      And would they have voted for euthanasia
      
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      May 15, 2020 11:40am
    - Ed Snack
      
      Well, I have a mother-in-law of 102, who has (not unexpectedly) some heart issues. She’s had these issues since she was 90 or so, or at least that’s when they became noticeable enough to restrict her activities to a degree though it wasn’t until she hit the ton that she stopped walking to the local shops.
      
      Just go and say goodbye is your advice cmm ?
      
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      May 15, 2020 11:59am
      - cmm
        
        Please not3, I am not wishing anything ill on your 102-year-old mother in law. If I could wave a magic wand I would grant her many more years of life with spring in her step.
        
        Form what you have written, you would appear to think that trashing the economy so that she can witness the impact of this economic disaster which will impact her children, grandkids and great grandkids will suffer is a better option?
        
        Go ask her if she thinks that’s a better deal?
        
        Most of the people dying in Italy had two or more co-morbidities. They were not likely to survive more than a few months anyway.
        
        Your 102-year-old mother-in-law only seems to have one issue – and a relatively light one, considering her age. Still, once you get to that sort of age and frailty, the chance of surviving winter go down every year. Having survived CV19, she still has the winter illness period (aka flu season) to face over the next few months. Chances of her surviving that are low. If she survives that, chance of surviving another year are even lower.
        
        And then what? All the hundreds of billions of dollars put into keeping her alive through CV19 and giving her another 3 or so months of massively reduced quality life have been a waste.
        
        Like I said, it’s pointless looking for red cars when you cross the road unless you also look for all the other colour cars too.
        
        And, to repeat myself, I’m not being a heartless bastard. Have a chat with here laying out all the pros and cons and see if she really thinks it was a good deal.
        
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        May 15, 2020 2:16pm
      - PhilBest
        
        Maybe some of these elderly people would rather die of being infected in the course of enjoying normal life and activities with friends and family, than existing a bit longer in isolation and inactivity, which probably hurries them along anyway. As cmm says, who is publishing their opinions on this? Perhaps those opinions are unwanted?
        
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        May 15, 2020 5:44pm
  - Nickc2
    
    Talking of lockdowns, how long are we expected to be at level 2, what does Level 1 give us and is level zero life as we used to be allowed to enjoy it?
    Perhaps we can only get to level zero if National win the next election?
    
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    May 15, 2020 9:26am
    - cmm
      
      We’re going to be at L2 until flu season when it will be jacked up to L3/L4 if we let them sucker us again.
      
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      May 15, 2020 10:22am
    - Sacha
      
      I reckon that the economy will take over as the ‘cri de jour’, and Levels will take a back seat and be totally ignored within a couple of months.
      People will be more worried about paying the bills than a few sniffles
      
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      May 15, 2020 11:08am
- rouppe
  
  Don’t forget that “community transmission” is defined as “when we don’t know who they caught it from”.
  
  If they know that you caught it from me, but not where I got it from, it is a score of 1, not 2.
  
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  May 15, 2020 8:49am
  - cmm
    
    But it does sound more scientific than “no clue”.
    
    The truth is that once a disease is well established in a population, you probably end up getting infected from many sources – a wee dose here, a wee dose there, until it adds up to enough.
    
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    May 15, 2020 8:57am
  - PhilBest
    
    Yes, but the obvious evidence we don’t have community transmission, is that hundreds of people at the very least were confirmed to be infected, when they were traced and tested days or even weeks after they were at the cluster event where they got infected, but meanwhile their movements and activities didn’t infect anyone else but their own family members under their own roof.
    
    The great majority of people seem to be incapable of thinking through the implications of the “delays” in this complex “system”. We don’t know who is infected until at least a week after they have been, and often even longer, and neither could we even know that we had a cluster until around two weeks or more had elapsed and multiple people had gone down with serious symptoms and been tested. By the time we start tracing people, they’ve been living a normal life “out and about” for a week or two or three.
    
    Why don’t people automatically understand this? And worse, the bafflement, denial and condemnation of being “uncaring” when a guy like me attempts to explain the self-evident: the lockdown was unnecessary in NZ?
    
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    May 15, 2020 9:56am
    - cmm
      
      NZ officials continue to refuse to gather the information showing community infection rates which they would get from antibody testing.
      
      There is huge interest in pushing the idea that the Cindy Method was perfect and the best in the world. The Otago-ites are rallying behind her because they get some of the glow.
      
      Heck, the media are still pushing that we have done better than Oz so far even though our death rate is 14% higher than Oz (or more correctly not statistically different).
      
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      May 15, 2020 10:29am
      - JackRabbit
        
        Yep, antibody testing is the only way to know.
        
        Comparing Covid-19 and Lotto
        ————————————-
        Ignoring antibody testing is like:
        – Saying that you have a 3% change of a significant prize, calculated by dividing the number of 1st division prizes (deaths) by the number of confirmed ticket buyers that won more than their ticket purchase price back.
        – Never, ever publishing how many people bought a Lotto ticket and did not win more than their ticket price back.
        – Never ever publishing the actual chance of winning Lotto 1st division or Powerball 1st division.
        
        “Roll up, Roll up, one chance in 33 of being of taking home 1st Division”
        
        It would appear that all government employees capable of producing the correct Covid-19 stats are either muzzled, or have been replaced with body snatchers or automatons incapable of thinking.
        
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        May 15, 2020 11:10am
      - PhilBest
        
        Yep, CMM and JackRabbit; this is where it goes beyond incompetence into iniquity.
        
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        May 15, 2020 5:46pm
- Ruawai
  
  There would have been a recession regardless of the lock down but the extended lock down has had a major cost on the economy and lives. It would be interesting to see estimates for the cost of closed borders separated from the cost of the extended lock down beyond the initial 4 weeks.
  
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  May 15, 2020 9:09am
  - Ed Snack
    
    Agree, even without lockdown the tourist industry would have been dead with no overseas tourists to feed it. Local food places would have done better though.
    
    I reckon if we were able to restrict the sort of conditions that enable cluster like spread we could have avoided lockdown. That would mean no noisy pubs, no large gatherings – especially noisy ones (encourages talking loudly with more generation of potentially infective particles), and we would still likely have had more transmission, though whether that would be significantly more is open to debate.
    
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    May 15, 2020 12:04pm
    - PhilBest
      
      Yes, exactly, when I refer to cost-effective measures short of full lockdown, I’d include that. Spacing out. People are doing it instinctively anyway; if they think lockdown was a good idea, they are scared enough to change behavior for a long time as a matter of habit.
      
      That is one of Brian Tamaki’s complaints; churches were not identified with any spread before lockdown, and they were all changing their behavior to keep risk low, running more events with fewer congregation present at each, sitting spaced out, sanitizing hands, etc. But it is the kind of venues where clusters did occur, that are being trusted to open now “with good behavior”. This stinks of deliberate picking on churches.
      
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      May 15, 2020 5:52pm
krazykiwi

Secret NHS files reveal plans for coronavirus contact tracing app
Documents left unsecured on Google Drive reveal the NHS could in the future ask people to post their health status to its Covid-19 contact tracing app.
:::
The documents, which are hosted in Google Drive, were inadvertently left open for anyone with a link to view. Links to the documents were included in others published by the NHS covering the privacy protections in the contact tracing app.

So restricted information was left unprotected. As they say, not a good look.
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May 15, 2020 8:12am
mikenmildagain

Happy International Conscientious Objectors Day!
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May 15, 2020 8:13am
- Lee C
  
  I refuse to take part.
  
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  May 15, 2020 8:35am
  - Philview
    
    Happy, unless the conscientious objection applies to abortion where the NZ Government has just legislated a long list of punative measures that can be applied to such a person by their employer.
    
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    May 15, 2020 9:45am
- Steve James
  
  Call it what it is: “International Cowards Day”
  
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  May 15, 2020 8:40am
  - MCos
    
    Mahummad Ali was a conscientious objector and refused to fight against the North Vietnamese.
    What was Donald Trump’s excuse?
    
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    May 15, 2020 9:37am
    - mikenmildagain
      
      Bone spurs. a genuinely painful and debilitating condition.
      
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      May 15, 2020 12:27pm
      - PhilBest
        
        Is that true? Fair enough, if so, and I don’t know why Mikey gets downticked for sticking up for Trump. Once again I am wondering whether someone else is posting as Mikey these days because he is drifting off his usual predictable message surprisingly often
        
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        May 15, 2020 5:54pm
    - Nickc2
      
      What was Bill Clinton’s excuse? Oh, that’s right, didn’t he run away to Canada to avoid the draft? He then went on to become the ‘first pardoned federal felon ever to serve as President of the U.S.’
      At least Trump went to a military college (New York Military Academy).
      
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      May 15, 2020 3:09pm
  - Libertarians are right
    
    That’s unfair. Many were but others were incredibly brave and did what they could under the limitations of their morality. Pfc Desmond T Doss (the movie Hacksaw Ridge was about him) was one of the bravest men I’ve ever heard about.
    
    When I think of Conscientious Objectors, I don’t think of the cowards who hid behind the words. They were frauds, their only objection being that they didn’t want to put their own body in harms way. I think about those who legitimately stood by their beliefs, at great risk to themselves and still did all that they could to help.
    
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    May 15, 2020 9:57am
    - PhilBest
      
      It is noticeable too that some progressives who attack people who served with distinction as non-combatants, because their opinions are not peacenik enough, worship outright objectors like James K Baxter.
      
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      May 15, 2020 5:56pm
      - NeverMindTheBollocks
        
        I think you mean Archibald Baxter, James K’s dad.
        
        What the NZ army did to him & other conchies was truly horrific.
        
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        May 15, 2020 8:18pm
- cmm
  
  Always a bit ironic that someone had to fight for the rights of the conscientious objectors.
  
  Still, I have a lot of respect for conscientious objectors that went to war as ambulance drivers etc – right there on the front line – often facing bigger risks than the tommies.
  
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  May 15, 2020 8:44am
  - Maggy Wassilieff
    
    https://nzhistory.govt.nz/war/first-world-war/conscientious-objection
    
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    May 15, 2020 9:00am
    - Inandout
      
      MW, I understand CO’s who were officially let off service had a white feather pushed into their letter boxes.
      
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      May 15, 2020 9:28am
      - Rachael Membery
        
        Have you seen the movie Four Feathers?
        
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        May 15, 2020 11:46am
      - Maggy Wassilieff
        
        In the 1970s I worked with a chap who had been given a white feather during WW2. It still rankled with him deeply as he had volunteered but was not accepted.
        
        I suppose he wasn’t given a reason that made sense to him, but I suspect it would have been due to some
        cognitive test.
        
        He was a simple, kind man – truck driver with the Whanganui City Council – . He often used to pick me up in his truck as I was biking through Sandy Lane
        (between Mosstown & St John’s Hill) and deliver me to my workplace at Virginia Lake.
        
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        May 15, 2020 3:28pm
  - krazykiwi
    
    I enjoyed the movie Hacksaw Ridge. A good conscientious objector story, based on real events. Some scenes not for the medically squeamish.
    
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    May 15, 2020 9:22am
  - cmm
    
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friends%27_Ambulance_Unit
    
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    May 15, 2020 9:38am
  - fightingtemeraire
    
    It was a CO who refused to carry a weapon that won gthe Congressional Medal of Honour on Iwo Jima
    
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    May 15, 2020 9:49am
Maggie Pie

Mt Roskill barber reports “…being rushed off his feet” as long queue forms outside his shop after return to Level 2.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EX7kg1_WkAcVvhy?format=jpg&name=small
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May 15, 2020 8:14am
- Brian McDonald
  
  Is there something I’m missing ear?
  
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  May 15, 2020 8:40am
- north island kiwi
  
  in my little town yesterday all three mens hairdressers
  had guys lined up half way down the street
  
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  May 15, 2020 8:44am
  - Maggie Pie
    
    Did your van gogh ?
    
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    May 15, 2020 9:07am
- PhilBest
  
  Anyone else hear about hairdressers who started taking appointments earlier and earlier from desperate people, until they had a full appointment schedule starting from midnight?
  
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  May 15, 2020 9:59am
- gorse
  
  Sitting in a three hour queue at a Christchurch barber. Got a free day so will get my hair cut.
  
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  May 15, 2020 10:32am
  - PhilBest
    
    Anything good on TV?
    
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    May 15, 2020 5:57pm
  - dave_c_
    
    Surely, you are not so vain, that a few more locks will have any impact on your life. Get a life, and ignore such unimportant miuntae.
    
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    May 15, 2020 6:22pm
Suze Wainwright

So Cindy’s got it in the bag then. All she has to do is accuse the opposition – and anyone else who displeases her – as being ‘political,’ while she continues with her noble quest to save us all.

That should last until the election with our current media
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May 15, 2020 8:17am
- KevO'Brien
  
  Her hubris has killed her reason. Have we now a mad woman in charge
  
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  May 15, 2020 8:39am
  - PhilBest
    
    Absolutely fair comment IMHO. It is the sycophants all around her who are at least partly responsible, even the global progressive Fake News, giving her a Messiah complex. How will she handle it if (not when) the whole sham crumbles?
    
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    May 15, 2020 10:01am
    - KevO'Brien
      
      Ardern has also to take responsibility for her choice of sycophants.
      
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      May 15, 2020 11:49am
  - Rachael Membery
    
    Statement more than a question now,
    
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    May 15, 2020 11:50am
- Ruawai
  
  Surely since Simon Bridges and JA are politicians there is a good chance what they both say will be political.
  
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  May 15, 2020 9:19am
Manolo

Another joke.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/may/14/greta-thunberg-cnn-coronavirus-town-hall-climate-change

Shortly after CNN announced yesterday that 17-year-old climate activist Greta Thunberg would join a panel of experts discussing the coronavirus, the backlash began.
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May 15, 2020 8:20am
- Tony Stuart
  
  Is it April 1st?
  
  41 1
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  May 15, 2020 8:21am
  - tf78
    
    Every day under this COL I hope.
    
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    May 15, 2020 9:43am
- Inandout
  
  Manolo, Greta thought she had Covid19 but survived; she is now an expert.
  
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  May 15, 2020 8:24am
  - Raphael
    
    And Chris Cuomo (of CNN, brother to Gov Anthony Cuomo) pretended to be in quarantine with COVID-19, and went on an extended rant when a cyclist bust him out and about.
    And after that public rant, CNN still carried on the fiction that Cuomo was confined to his basement
    
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    May 15, 2020 8:55am
    - Inandout
      
      Raphael, I saw that clip as well and though his wife played along with the farce, his kids were not as good at acting. The Fox viewers got the irony, and they number in the millions now while CNN trails behind the cooking shows.
      
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      May 15, 2020 9:33am
    - Im Right
      
      Ahhh yes Raphael, I forgot about the Chris Cuomo fiasco of him being in his basement for 2 weeks then the film crew filming him coming up the stairs and greeting his family as Cuomo went on to say how hard it was staying down there alone but it was for his family and his sacrifice!
      THEN it came out he was out and about outside the house….how he can still be a serious political face for CNN says more about CNN than it does for Cuomo!
      
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      May 15, 2020 9:57am
  - tf78
    
    Greta could see it coming – She could be the Covid sniffer dog.
    
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    May 15, 2020 9:43am
    - JackRabbit
      
      She is already a Pavlov’s dog so a Covid sniffing app could be down loaded into her as well.
      
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      May 15, 2020 12:46pm
  - amospicton
    
    Since she can see CO2 I’m sure she can see covid-19 as well.
    
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    May 15, 2020 9:50am
    - Sacha
      
      – on her breath!
      
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      May 15, 2020 11:14am
  - Rachael Membery
    
    Does she also have Greenhouse gas?
    
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    May 15, 2020 11:55am
    - JackRabbit
      
      She can smell it when others around her fart. That makes her Superwoman.
      
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      May 15, 2020 12:46pm
- alloytoo
  
  The article is also materially wrong in asserting that Donald Trump Jr is without qualification, he has a B.S. in economics from University of Pennsylvania’s Wharton School.
  
  If I could fact check that in 5 seconds…..
  
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  May 15, 2020 8:29am
  - fernglas
    
    I think the point made in the article was that Trump Jr often goes public on matters on which he is unqualified to speak, but is enabled to do so by virtue of his parentage. A BS in economics, for example, doesn’t make him any greater expert on climate change than little Miss Thunberg. Neither of them are particularly qualified to pass expert opinion on much outside their sheltered and dysfunctional little lives, but for some reason, people listen to them.
    
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    May 15, 2020 2:38pm
- JibberJabber
  
  Haha, that panel would now be a fast track for any real expert to lose their credibility in their chosen field.
  Not that scientific credibility has ever been of concern to activists.
  Maybe she can see the virus riding the Co2 to Valhalla?
  
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  May 15, 2020 8:50am
  - JackRabbit
    
    Or Stovokor.
    
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    May 15, 2020 12:47pm
- Raphael
  
  To be perfectly honest, she is probably more creditable/knowledgable than any of their staff.
  
  But then that’s a bar so low dust bunnies can hop over it.
  
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  May 15, 2020 8:52am
- Nickc2
  
  There is a number of bloggers on this site that believe every word that comes out of CNN. No doubt they will be singing the praises of St. Greta.
  
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  May 15, 2020 9:39am
- Libertarians are right
  
  She could actually get up and talk about how environmental damage (ozone layer) and climate change has actually had a mitigating effect on the damage done by the virus in countries like NZ and Australia. And that other Green policies like public transport and reusable bags must be offset by the very real health costs of them. It would be relevant.
  
  She won’t though as she’s dishonest.
  
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  May 15, 2020 10:04am
oldpark

After seven weeks of Lockdown and an eye watering Fifty Billion dollars of borrowing announced in the budget . Here is another Pearler . Heard the fat faced bloated circa $300,000 taxpayer funded James Shaw from the limpwristed Green Party bleat about the lack of mention for the so called myth of Climate Change . Which may or may not happen on the 12th of Never .
Would have thought he would have been in a “Mea Culpa ” apology how he and his now proven to be a waste of space buddies in their so called defenders of Human and Civil Rights for all NZs .
Yes that lot sold out their Principles for a fist full of Dollars when they supported the control “Freak Ardern” and the master of” Obfuscation Peters” and their Parties in allowing against the advice of Paul Hunt Human Rights Commissioner to give the Police “Carte Blanche” to enter the homes of NZs checking for so called breaches of Coronavirus rules and regulations .Yeah! Right!
Once more now that the limp wristed waste of space Green Party have been exposed as parasites and bludgers of NZs Tazpayers what now do they stand for . Other than *******. Politics is Power, Right or Wrong.
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May 15, 2020 8:20am
- MJHNZ
  
  This post takes the gold medal for today. Brilliant, well done and first class.
  
  I agree 110%
  
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  May 15, 2020 1:06pm
G152

Go shopping and they want to know name and phone number as you enter the shop.
So there are a few stores that didn’t get my custom and neither I or the shops that didn’t want the information care.
Shopping done money spent
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May 15, 2020 8:21am
- Ruahine
  
  The Greens are not unlike a virus. Living off working peoples money.
  
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  May 15, 2020 9:13am
  - JackRabbit
    
    More like parasites.
    
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    May 15, 2020 12:48pm
- Ruawai
  
  This recording of names and numbers will affect small businesses more as the big retailers don’t have to keep a record so customers will go there instead.
  
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  May 15, 2020 9:22am
  - JackRabbit
    
    No I think it s a good idea. /sarc
    
    Grant Robertson and Jacinda Ardern et all, could pave the way by recording all comings and goings from their respective homes/workplaces and publishing online. Probably crash the CIA / NSA servers.
    
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    May 15, 2020 12:50pm
  - dave_c_
    
    Yer – I dont have to ‘sign in’ to shop in the supermarket.
    
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    May 15, 2020 6:27pm
- Engelbert Humperdink
  
  My current nom de plume for such attendances is Fred Galt (John’s older brother).
  
  The stunning lack of security of this personal information leads me to believe the Coalition of Communists regards the surrender of privacy as a feature, not a bug.
  
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  May 15, 2020 9:39am
- gravedodger
  
  Then do not be surprised if Plod or an unsworn deputy invades your home and Castle demanding to know if you have clean undies on?
  
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  May 15, 2020 9:46am
- tf78
  
  They could if they have to trace you with your credit/debit card very easily.
  
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  May 15, 2020 9:50am
- MCos
  
  You know why don’t you?
  If someone with the bug is in the shop around the same time as you, they can let you know so you can get a test. If you have caught the bug you might spread it around to someone who could, you know, die!
  It’s a long shot, but it happens.
  
  So suit yourself.
  
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  May 15, 2020 9:56am
  - chaos
    
    Sadly amongst some people here they only care about themselves and no one else.
    
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    May 15, 2020 11:14am
  - Rachael Membery
    
    Do get a grip, I don’t believe it was ever going to happen in NZ to any large degree if we had stopped people at the borders earlier.
    Mind you I would have been happier stuck here than anywhere else too.
    
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    May 15, 2020 12:06pm
- The Proper Ghandi
  
  Just give them false information.
  
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  May 15, 2020 10:07am
- Im Right
  
  Just put your phone number down with some digits transposed, easy ‘mistake’ to make but impossible to call (without trying dozens of variables) and spell your name a wee bit incorrectly…..sorted!
  
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  May 15, 2020 10:09am
  - dave_c_
    
    I did that today, and have no expectation that it will even be looked at.
    
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    May 15, 2020 6:29pm
fernglas

Has anyone told us about the consequences of contact tracing? Not just the loss of privacy from having to disclose personal details to unknown third parties, but that those details will then be used to track us down if we have been unfortunate enough to come into contact with a carrier, compel us to undergo mandatory testing and quarantine, and expose us to criminal sanctions if we fail to comply? What provisions are in place to ensure that the information we supply will be kept safely and only used for lawful purposes? How long will this continue? In their haste to meet their goals the powers that be have failed in their obligation to tell the public the truth.
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May 15, 2020 8:22am
- rouppe
  
  but that those details will then be used to track us down if we have been unfortunate enough to come into contact with a carrier
  
  Kind of the point
  
  compel us to undergo mandatory testing and quarantine, and expose us to criminal sanctions if we fail to comply
  
  If you’re at risk from infection, why wouldn’t you want a test? You never go to the doctor, where the GP does some tests? The asymptomatic carrier and source of continued infection is the reason for quarantine
  
  What provisions are in place to ensure that the information we supply will be kept safely and only used for lawful purposes?
  
  The Privacy Act
  
  How long will this continue?
  
  Reviewed every 90 days.
  
  In their haste to meet their goals the powers that be have failed in their obligation to tell the public the truth.
  
  Well the Labour Party and the truth haven’t been friends for a long time
  
  Look, I think the whole thing is overkill. I’m not wearing a mask. I’m not hiding in my house. I’m hosting a dinner party tomorrow.
  
  I am keeping a close eye on the movements that this government is making. I don’t trust them. But at this stage it isn’t a huge over reach
  
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  May 15, 2020 9:04am
  - Nickc2
    
    I had my first introduction to our ‘Gold Standard’ COVID-19 Tracing System this morning. After standing in a queue outside a Barber Ship for about an hour and when I finally got to enter, I was required to add my name and contact phone number to a list on a piece of A4 paper.
    The information I was required to enter would not only be available to the Government (which I don’t trust) on request, it would also be available to the proprietor of the Barber’s shop and anyone who subsequently logged in on the same sheet of paper after I did.
    Gold Standard system, my arse!
    
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    May 15, 2020 3:23pm
    - NeverMindTheBollocks
      
      There are commercially available apps where visitor details are held securely in the Azure cloud. The retailer (or business whose premises you are visiting) can access the data if notified that a person who tested positive was present at the same time as yourself. Only a subset of the data is sent to MoH, who cannot use it for any purpose other than contact tracing.
      
      But you know, probably you’ve already given that information to the retailer anyway if you made a purchase (debit card, loyalty card, web app, whatever).
      
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      May 15, 2020 8:34pm
      - Nickc2
        
        I understand what you are saying, but I don’t trust anyone with my data, let alone this government whose treasury can’t even keep it’s data secure.
        
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        May 15, 2020 9:12pm
- Maggy Wassilieff
  
  That was the problem with the recent spike in numbers in Seoul. Folks obviously didn’t trust authorities to keep their details confidential.
  https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-12/south-korea-investigators-trace-club-coronavirus-cluster/12240394
  
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  May 15, 2020 9:14am
  - Inandout
    
    Maggy W: Seoul has 10 million people.
    
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    May 15, 2020 9:37am
- LTA1955
  
  They will be handing out star armbands for non-compliance soon……where have we seen that in the wreckage of history?
  
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  May 15, 2020 9:18am
  - Simon Gotlieb
    
    If I had a dollar for every time some Godwinner declared the country was turning into a fascist state I’d have enough money to buy the entire National party.
    
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    May 15, 2020 10:30am
- greybeard
  
  I had to record my name and phone number in a book yesterday at a stationery shop.
  It occurred to me afterwards that I could have written a false name and number and nobody would have been the wiser.
  
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  May 15, 2020 9:30am
  - Simon Gotlieb
    
    Well, obviously. And if it turns out that enough people are doing that, and we have another outbreak, will you be surprised when they make installation and use of contact tracing apps on your phone compulsory? I can understand where you’re coming from but I’m worried it just encourages the bastards.
    
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    May 15, 2020 10:31am
- MCos
  
  Conversely you can sit around the house all day.
  
  Of course the National Party always seems to be launching petitions that I’m sure require contact details. Next minute they have access to 40,000 people.
  What happens to that information?
  In both cases there will be assurances that the info will not be used for wrong purposes, but there’s dishonest people around who’ll flog the stuff off if they can get their hands on it.
  
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  May 15, 2020 10:07am
  - Simon Gotlieb
    
    It would appear that many here believe the National party are only capable of virtuous action and that this information would only be used to benefit the economy, therefore increasing its virtuousness.
    
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    May 15, 2020 10:33am
    - MCos
      
      I’m sure the Nats won’t use the info for a mailing list, but in some organisations there are dishonest people who will steal the stuff.
      
      3 2
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      May 15, 2020 12:01pm
      - mikenmildagain
        
        It is not really allowed to collect and retain personal information (contact details) other than for the purpose it was collected.
        But petitions, etc, usually have a privacy statement authorising all sorts of use of your details.
        
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        May 15, 2020 3:21pm
- The Proper Ghandi
  
  “How long will this continue?”
  
  Forever. Once implemented, that will be that. They’ll have us all by the balls in our new open-air prison.
  
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  May 15, 2020 10:09am
- Benedict Yu
  
  I can see many people giving false names and phone numbers
  
  5 1
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  May 15, 2020 10:26am
  - Ed Snack
    
    I can see little problem, short term, with this tracing work. I don’t mind it being known where I shopped especially as it could be traced from by card transactions.
    
    Past the necessary restriction times though, I’ll definitely be giving fake information if it is continued for no good reason.
    
    To be fair, I doubt it will continue that long, to hard to maintain and process to be truly useful.
    
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    May 15, 2020 12:23pm
- Rachael Membery
  
  Again.
  
  2 0
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  May 15, 2020 12:32pm
alloytoo

Money being thrown about without a plan or idea.

Come back Bill….Please.
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May 15, 2020 8:23am
- mandk
  
  I was surprised to hear the Finance Minister acknowledging that we are able to mount the fiscal response we are taking because of the sound management of Bill English.
  
  He ruined it, however, by bracketing English with Cullen.
  
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  May 15, 2020 9:19am
- MT_Tinman
  
  I don’t know about you’re Bill but I note a Bill (of the Windsor type; rich Pom, wouldn’t know NZ if his private jet tripped on it) is trying to interfere with the NZ election on the bad guys’ side.
  
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  May 15, 2020 9:21am
- tf78
  
  Paul Goldsmith will be just as capable – he reminds me of Bill in a lot of ways.
  
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  May 15, 2020 9:52am
  - Jack5
    
    Yep, but I wonder about Goldsmith’s enthusiasm for reopening the universities’ foreign student business, which until Wuhan flu was was enabled by providing a citizenship path to the students.
    
    Continuing international student business by providing a path to NZ citizenship will cement NZ into the population-growth economic policy that has seen our GDP per capita stagnate, that is, the comparative wealth of New Zealanders slide own the list of developed countries.
    
    According to the CIA World Factbook, NZ is now 48th in the world in GDP per capita, compared with Australia 29th, and UK 39th.
    
    A policy of citizenship for international students would also be a lifeline for Peters and NZ First. Such policy would, like party political ties with Beijing, be a challenge for National at this year’s general election. Better to get these challenges sorted now.
    
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    May 15, 2020 11:25am
    - NeverMindTheBollocks
      
      Agree. There’s no reason why buying an education has to come with free citizenship.
      
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      May 15, 2020 8:41pm
I remember when

Success, Total Eradication:
It doesn’t seem to have been reported in the local press yet.
NZPM Cinders has been awarded the first 100% Success Medal, by the International Insomniacs Society, after her guest speaker appearance at their 1 o’clock Luncheon Club.
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May 15, 2020 8:26am
Maggie Pie

Heading out soon for a little ‘retail therapy’ at Westfield.

Going early, going hard. 😀
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May 15, 2020 8:26am
- wilderbeast
  
  ?
  
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  May 15, 2020 8:27am
- Inandout
  
  Expect to sign in at the entrance, sign in at every shop, and sign out again at the exit. I will go to Bunnings.
  
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  May 15, 2020 8:28am
  - dave_c_
    
    Indeed – Note required to sign in there this afternoon
    
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    May 15, 2020 6:36pm
- Lee C
  
  Finally something your hubby can get behind..
  
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  May 15, 2020 8:36am
- Maggy Wassilieff
  
  I was defeated in my attempts to spend, spend, spend yesterday.
  Limit of 3 people into the deli
  Limit of 8 people into Farmlands
  Choka car park at Bunnings
  Long queue and choka car parking at the Warehouse-Noel Lemming.
  
  But we got a spare table at our favourite Lunchery and service was brilliant.
  
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  May 15, 2020 8:44am
  - MT_Tinman
    
    Personally I bought the salt grinder from Briscoes without delay, could not find any of the three things I went to Bunnings for (but no lines) and was served straight away at the hamburger/fish and chip shop.
    
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    May 15, 2020 9:02am
  - gravedodger
    
    We had a very nice day also Maggy, ended with lunch at a Speights ale house, one chicken and bacon pasta the other a warm lamb Greek salad both surreal and no freakin dishes to wash.
    
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    May 15, 2020 9:50am
Cinematic

Has anyone got a spare $20bn?

Gonna buy me an election.

Pay it back in about 30 years.
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May 15, 2020 8:27am
- Ruawai
  
  Whoever is nice to Grant between now and the election will get some of his money.
  
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  May 15, 2020 9:25am
  - Rachael Membery
    
    [Deleted – don’t bring MP’s family into discussions. Mod.]
    
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    May 15, 2020 12:38pm
- Nickc2
  
  Helicopter money?
  
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  May 15, 2020 9:46am
- gravedodger
  
  Best consult Mike Bloomberg, didn’t work for him and he was up against poor old Joe Biden?
  
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  May 15, 2020 9:51am
LetMeOut

I have woken up this morning in a bizarre world and can’t believe this is real. At the beginning of this year NZ was chugging along, a busy little place but possibly heading to a minor recession. Climate change, wellbeing, saving the environment were the themes pushed by the MSM. Now our country is closed off from tourism, possibly for a long time. The government had gone into a frenzy and will splash out $50B ($27,000 per household) in their Covid recovery programme. By 2024, debt is forecast to be $109,000 per household. This is all caused by an extreme lockdown and closing off the borders. What was this all for? Let’s look beyond the 20 deaths we have had so far and look at a possible worst-case scenario. Forget the models which have been proven to be rubbish and look at what has happened elsewhere. In the UK (67 million people) where there has been a high death rate and borders open, they have had 33,000 deaths so far. If that is adjusted for NZ with 5 million people, we could have had 2500 deaths. The reality is we have a lower population density so 2500 is probably way to high. Is preventing these deaths worth $50B? Have we even prevented these deaths? Will people die in other ways (suicide, failure to treat cancer in time)? Later this year, will we have a resurgence of Covid-19 disease? How long before there is a vaccine?

I believe we will look back at this government in several years and greatly regret they ever existed because the damage to this wonderful country will be so severe and so unnecessary. They will be recognized as the worst, most incompetent, inept bunch of idiots to ever be in control of NZ.
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May 15, 2020 8:30am
- Handyman
  
  Along the same lines:
  At this moment there are dozens, potentially hundreds of old sick people who will live in to the next cold winter flu season. Their children have had $80,000 added to their mortgages and their grandchildren have had $40,000 added to their student debt.
  
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  May 15, 2020 8:54am
- Komata
  
  LMO@0830
  
  You are of course ASSUMING that you will even be allowed to have such thoughts.
  
  The way that Commie Chick and her mates are going there will be very little left unless you are part of the ‘chosen one’s inner circle…
  
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  May 15, 2020 8:57am
- Engelbert Humperdink
  
  I already regret Winston Peters ever existed as without him we would not have Skeleta the Commie.
  
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  May 15, 2020 9:40am
- Nickc2
  
  The $109k per household will be recouped by a death tax indexed to inflation.
  
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  May 15, 2020 9:52am
- Tall Man
  
  They are lazy, they are liars so what can we expect.
  
  MAGA 2020.
  
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  May 15, 2020 9:56am
- The Proper Ghandi
  
  The purported justification (and the seemingly widespread acceptance) of “saving lives,” set in opposition to the astronomical, long-term, economically crippling cost of doing so, is a perfect example of how many decades of substandard public education and the dumbing-down of society in general has resulted in emotions taking precedence over reason and logic. We live in an Idiocracy.
  
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  May 15, 2020 10:19am
- oldfella
  
  We will also look back and wish Winny P had never been born, or at least kept the hell out of NZ politics. Imagine if we’d had the people’s choice, Bill English, steering the ship? At least he and the bunch of business savvy people surrounding him would have avoided hitting the reef we seem to be heading for.
  And speaking of Winston, he’s really into election mode, fronting up and tackling China.
  https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300012123/coronavirus-new-zealand-joins-calls-for-investigation-into-origin-of-covid19-in-china
  This should win him a few votes with his normal voter base. And really p*ss off Jacindazilla.
  
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  May 15, 2020 10:29am
  - PhilBest
    
    Inquiring minds want to know what dirt Helen and now Jacinda, have on Winnie
    
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    May 15, 2020 6:03pm
    - Nickc2
      
      Corrupt practices?
      
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      May 15, 2020 8:12pm
- MCos
  
  “This is all caused by an extreme lockdown and closing off the borders.”
  This seems to be the basis of your criticism of the government’s response to the pandemic i.e. that the coming recession is entirely the result of the lockdown.
  Except it’s wrong.
  The entire world is or will be in a recession bordering on depression and where the world goes so do we, more so than many others.
  The biggest economy in the world is in tatters with eye watering unemployment and jaw dropping dept.
  
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  May 15, 2020 12:31pm
  - PhilBest
    
    You’re not wrong, but lockdowns made it worse, not better.
    
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    May 15, 2020 6:04pm
SmokerGuy

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Bridges was pretty hopeless from what I heard on radio and his budget speech yesterday. I think National will really struggle to win this election now as Labour are simply delaying the pain until after the election has been. There are opportunities to hammer them though as we are going to be swimming in debt and the forecasts are insanely optimistic (does anyone actually believe them???). However it’s obvious that Bridges is not resonating with people, I’ve lost count how many people have told me they don’t like him (most National voters). It’s tough on Bridges as he hasn’t done anything majorly wrong but that’s politics. If they are serious about winning the next election then I think they need to consider another leader to take them into the election.
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May 15, 2020 8:30am
- Lee C
  
  I disagree, He was good – measured and calm.
  
  going feral will only distance him from swinging voters – he has to maintain that National actually have a plan and a history of delivering on them.
  
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  May 15, 2020 8:51am
  - krazykiwi
    
    I agree with you Lee. I have two bits of advice for Simon. Getting a [better?] media coach would be helpful, but the main thing is to get principles voiced first, then policy later.
    
    He needs to present his belief in sovereign, capable New Zealanders establishing their path in life with the government supporting them, in contrast the the centrally-planned, socialist nanny state that Ardern is building.
    
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    May 15, 2020 9:10am
    - Simon Gotlieb
      
      Weird. That’s almost exactly what I said yesterday and you hated it then. Surely people here aren’t playing the man instead of the ball?
      
      FWIW I agree with you on what Bridges needs to do.
      
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      May 15, 2020 10:35am
  - wreck1080
    
    Yet ineffective.
    
    This is his problem, how to be relevant when the spotlight is on Ardern and outshining everyone else.
    
    He is failing at that, even though his message is good.
    
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    May 15, 2020 9:15am
  - SmokerGuy
    
    The problem is people have switched off him so it doesn’t matter what he says now. I actually think he would do a good job as PM but I don’t reckon he has any chance of winning. A large proportion of the public are shallow and will vote on personality of the leader and as much as I think Ardern is a complete over hyped flake she is winning this by miles.
    
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    May 15, 2020 9:23am
    - Sacha
      
      People will switch on when reality starts to bite. The National party is not just him – he has a good team working alongside – unlike the current government which, to put it kindly, is looking increasingly inept.
      Gosh, am I glad that I will not be trying to make my way over the next 15 years!
      
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      May 15, 2020 11:29am
      - SmokerGuy
        
        That is true but the public elected this bunch of useless pricks almost purely based on Ardern and it looks like they will do it again.
        
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        May 15, 2020 12:27pm
  - Ruawai
    
    and a team of capable ministers rather than Twyford, Clark, Davis, Nash etc
    
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    May 15, 2020 9:26am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Bridges needs to start throwing hard punches, and come down hard on the fake news reporters. HTFU
    
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    May 15, 2020 10:21am
    - Simon Gotlieb
      
      Nah, that would make it so much worse. He already comes across as negative, and that’s turning off huge amounts of voters. He needs to reclaim positivity in the face of a negative outlook for the country. Start being aspirational, start appealing to what makes us Kiwis, and he will start being liked. Once people start liking him they will be more receptive to what he has to say. Until then, no go.
      
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      May 15, 2020 10:37am
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        I did not mean physically. Just stop being a big girl’s blouse
        
        5 2
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        May 15, 2020 12:48pm
      - Simon Gotlieb
        
        I didn’t mean physically either.
        
        1 1
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        May 15, 2020 5:09pm
  - Tony Stuart
    
    Spot on Lee. Notably, he didn’t move a motion of no confidence in the Government, which is what the LotO traditionally does to start his speech in the Budget Debate. He acknowledged the seriousness of the situation, and I thought that was a very positive move.
    
    Now National has the campaign brakes off, it’s time to start rolling out policy alternatives. Robertson has left himself a mere $20B to spray around between now and the election, and it’s that spending National should target. After all, it’s $4000 per New Zealander, and all of it is borrowed, and will have to be paid back one day. National’s challenge is to clearly differentiate itself from the Government.
    
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    May 15, 2020 12:00pm
- lifesgood
  
  Did you ask them to explain why they don’t like him? Otherwise it’s a nonsense. They weren’t lifelong National voters from Kenyan, were they?
  
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  May 15, 2020 8:56am
  - SmokerGuy
    
    Most people say he comes across as smug and arrogant. I don’t know why, there is just something about him that turns people off. A family member for example is a life long National supporter but he seriously dislikes him and said he would never vote for National again while he is leader. It’s harsh because I’ve heard he is quite personable to meet.
    
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    May 15, 2020 11:27am
    - lifesgood
      
      Oh that is just ridiculous, to not vote for a party on the basis of one politician. Your family member needs to take a good hard look at his/her political beliefs.
      
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      May 15, 2020 12:23pm
      - SmokerGuy
        
        But that’s what people do!!!!! It’s ridiculous but that’s the reality of modern society.
        
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        May 15, 2020 2:44pm
- Captain Mainwaring
  
  It’s unbelievable how much crap Labour has been foisting on us since 2017, how much they lie, how corrupt they are, and how their Ministers are totally useless compared to National’s front bench, yet so many are going to vote for them because Cindy is young and trendy and Simon is ‘boring’.
  Voters are basically stupid.
  
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  May 15, 2020 9:30am
- Tall Man
  
  Another nervous labour troll. You really think if you push that lie it will become reality. You have made just one post and that was to bag Simon Bridges. Your effort is noted now pop back to the standard and tell them how clever you are … not.
  
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  May 15, 2020 9:54am
  - SmokerGuy
    
    Hahaha I would rather stick a rusty scalpel in my ear than vote Labour!!! I’ve voted National every time in my life apart from once where I voted ACT. This is not at all because I am a Labour supporter, I happen to think this government is the worst we have had for a long time (maybe ever). I just hear people talk about him again and again and no one ever says anything good. I sincerely hope National win but I just can’t see them winning with someone who is so widely disliked by people.
    
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    May 15, 2020 11:22am
    - Rachael Membery
      
      They don’t know him, a very safe pair of hands who isn’t afraid to let others in the caucus have a public opinion is how I rate Simon.
      Not all this look at me crap that is Jacinda.
      
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      May 15, 2020 1:01pm
    - Tall Man
      
      Well you just parroted a falsehood based on what, what other labour trolls do.
      
      If you truly give a shit about NZ you would see there’s a simple choice, ardern the liar or Simon who you think is boring. That’s it.
      
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      May 15, 2020 1:29pm
      - SmokerGuy
        
        I’ll still vote National probably (or ACT) but it’s because I believe the National team shits all over the Labour one. I’m just saying a lot of people aren’t like me, they just can’t look past the leader and that has to be taken into account.
        
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        May 15, 2020 2:47pm
- gorse
  
  I watched him, he was actually very good. Didn’t rant, presented a five point recovery plan, yes they have a plan, unlike Robertson. He called out the names of the weak Labour ministers, there were quite a few, and called out the names of his team, saying they would be better as ministers than Labour’s. I would expect the radio to rubbish him, that is what Labour are now paying them to do.
  
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  May 15, 2020 10:22am
- tf78
  
  “From what you heard” you need to listen for yourself before you criticize as I think you would be in for a pleasant surprise.
  
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  May 15, 2020 11:39am
  - SmokerGuy
    
    When I said that, I actually meant that I did listen to it.
    
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    May 15, 2020 12:30pm
Tomsk

Can someone explain to me how Treasury can estimate unemployment in 2022 will be down to 4.2% by 2022 . And this is with the tourism sector devastated. Its fascinating that all the media just parrot the government’s line with no critical analysis.
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May 15, 2020 8:35am
- emmess
  
  Yeah, I have not doubt that the real unemployment excluding those being held onto just because of the wage subsidy is now more than 20%. That has to come off at some point, then we will see the reality, the government is just holding on to after the election.
  
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  May 15, 2020 9:03am
- Bobba Fret
  
  This lot cannot forecast anything.
  eg. their “model” told them NZ could have 80,000 Covid 19 deaths (was the model 6’1″blonde?) and Pike River re-entry would cost $23m (now up to $52m and not over yet).
  
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  May 15, 2020 9:24am
  - gorse
    
    National will be working furiously to come up with some actual numbers and projections. They can’t let this lot fudge numbers until after the election.
    
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    May 15, 2020 10:44am
- the deity formerly known as nigel6888
  
  I’m old enough to remember when Treasury provided advice on budgeting.
  
  Anyone heard a peep out of the Secretary to the Treasury?
  
  Is she in witness protection?
  
  Or was she carefully selected as an Australian import so that she wouldn’t know anybody, wouldn’t understand the NZ economy, and wouldn’t make waves?
  
  I’d like to see the economic advice that supported sign off on increasing debt to 54% of GDP and the claim that unemployment will not go beyond 10% and will revert to under 5%!
  
  Please God can the PLA come quickly! At least our new Chinese overlords understand the value of a dollar!
  
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  May 15, 2020 9:29am
- Libertarians are right
  
  The same reason that at the last election, they were predicting a one off spike in growth in the 2018 year which as soon as Labour got in they changed to a long term prediction.
  
  Treasury has been inundated with Arts graduates recently. When National got a Treasury employee seconded to them (as is custom), after a lot of work due to Robertson trying his hardest to block it, they had to basically give up because the person they got wasn’t worth the effort.
  
  Treasury is of little value now unfortunately.
  
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  May 15, 2020 10:16am
- oldfella
  
  Robbo on this morning’s A.M show claimed local tourism made up 60% of the sector, having said up till now that it was only 40%.
  Could it be a sneaky attempt to make it seem that locals can bail out the industry?
  
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  May 15, 2020 10:37am
  - brett68
    
    Local tourism is things like going to the beach for holiday or heading up to Auckland for a shop or going to the rugby or a concert.
    
    Not doing all the touristy stuff everyone from overseas comes here for.
    
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    May 15, 2020 11:40am
Bat Man

Andrew Coumo Governor of New York is by default

The Leader of the Free World Now

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsoGVV-N0X4

Speaks to people like they are Human and intelligent

Just so you can compare to the patronising horse poop we are fed from the Criminal Political Scum of New Zealand

If New York Fails American Fails
and if

American Fails

NZ and Australia

will be

INVADED

Do not fool yourself about how serious and deliberate and attack
on America this is
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May 15, 2020 8:37am
- the deity formerly known as nigel6888
  
  Please God can the PLA come quickly – they at least understand the value of a dollar, and having experienced communism, don’t want a bar of it.
  
  Can you imagine a “living wage” or a benefit “entitlement” in our brave new world?
  
  Of course we might miss Winnie the Pooh, but you can’t make a paradise without breaking eggs comrade, and we already willingly gave away our rights and the rule of law!
  
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  May 15, 2020 9:33am
- Im Right
  
  It’s Level 2 here in NZ, you can take off your tin foil hat now Bat Man!
  Andrew Coumo still hasn’t fully explained why rest homes were left to let the infection spread, or why he didn’t do something about the public transport (busses/Tube) till everyone was already infected….he still has a lot to answer to!
  NZ being invaded…*snort, giggle, guffaw*
  
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  May 15, 2020 10:16am
  - kowtow
    
    In a future war the Chinese will not need to invade . Their navy would be powerful enough ( unless the Yanks who we love to hate intervened) to simply blockade us from the rest of the world and before you know it , all those “corporate” types who were whinging about their exports would be donning blue cloth caps with red stars on the front and saying , “Hey we gotta make a buck ” ( or a ren min bi)
    
    And if anyone thinks they are good faith actors who respect international law and other country’s sovereignty , just google 9 dash line.
    
    https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy-defence/article/1988596/whats-chinas-nine-dash-line-and-why-has-it-created-so
    
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    May 15, 2020 12:10pm
KevO'Brien

A most excellent analysis by Muriel Newman:
https://www.nzcpr.com/the-politics-of-fear/
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May 15, 2020 8:37am
- north island kiwi
  
  @kevO,
  thanks for the link ,will finish reading it later, the few
  sentences i did have time to read, the dicktaster in chief
  saying not to believe anything on social media, newspapers or on the TV but to only believe what the govt say as being true, now shes getting real blatant with the lies, the number of people that believe her tho thats
  whats really astounding
  
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  May 15, 2020 9:01am
Paulus

Congratulations Cindy and Robbo you have actually bought the election.
You still have a few more Billions to scatter just prior to the election to ensure the result.
How many constituencies will National lose as to do so for you to get an overall majority in your own right.
Peters is out along with Shaw and others so you are on your own.
Then you must decide how to screw the money out of the minority of taxpayers to pay back the debt – if ever.
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May 15, 2020 8:37am
- Tony Stuart
  
  A “few billion”? Paulus; Robertson has kept TWENTY BILLION up his sleeve, which will doubtless be spent before the election. That equates to $4000 per man, woman and child in New Zealand, BUT it’s $20B we don’t have, and we’ll have to borrow. That may be acceptable now, while interest rates are low, but what happens when they inevitably rise again?
  
  Labour isn’t even trying to be subtle about election bribes. They are hidden, in full sight.
  
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  May 15, 2020 8:50am
  - Philview
    
    They know where that money is going. Maybe the helicopter payment to hit our bank accounts the day before the election.
    
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    May 15, 2020 9:41am
    - Tony Stuart
      
      Well, the extended wage subsidy doesn’t run out until AFTER advance voting opens, so we can rule nothing out.
      
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      May 15, 2020 12:01pm
- bruceavon
  
  yes I agree. Audrey Young wrote a piece yesterday about how this budget was very good politically for Labour. Because they haven’t been trapped into promising to do anything or some elaborate hare brained scheme that we can see failing, like happened with kiwi build. Because they haven’t promised or done anything. Young is attacked by some on here because she often praises the government and Ardern, but she has been around a long time, and she is often right. This is a ‘kick the can down the road’ and hope we can work it out later budget from a government who does this all the time. Unfortunately they seem to get away with it. So Robertson has just given himself a 20bn war chest to put out fires before the election and distribute lollies, as required. But it is also a 20bn dollar reelection fund, paid for by us. So they will limp to the election, hope they get back in and then will have another 3 years wot work out what to do about this disaster. The unbelievable part is that this is every liberal finance ministers wet dream. The chance to borrow at will and spray money everywhere. No wonder him and Arden seems so happy at the moment. Eye watering sums, and no one has really blinked an eye. Incredible really.
  
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  May 15, 2020 9:33am
- tf78
  
  It’s been proven time and time again that elections can’t necessarily be bought.
  
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  May 15, 2020 9:59am
- gorse
  
  You might be right Paulus. My bet is on both the Greens And NZ First not making 5%. NZ First will, in my opinion, be charged by the SFO who have repeatedly said their investigation will be complete before September. National will poll better than Labour in the election, and ACT, well they are a wild card. Anything from 3 – 7 seats in my opinion. We will see, but don’t give up just yet.
  
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  May 15, 2020 10:51am
Bat Man

Pilgers Pro Chinese Communist Propaganda Piece

The Coming War on China

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAfeYMONj9E

What is fails to Say that his own country is at present being invaded and the Coming War is going to be directed at his

AUSTRALIA

Preparation for the Invasion of Australia
are well underway.

NZ is playing its part very well.
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May 15, 2020 8:40am
- tf78
  
  Batman apart from this government that is the scariest reality I have seen.
  
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  May 15, 2020 10:00am
- Jack5
  
  Good morning Battie. Tried your link and up came “video unavailable”.
  
  Why would Beijing invade New Zealand when we’re giving the place to them without a shot?
  
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  May 15, 2020 11:30am
Bat Man

https://www.booktopia.com.au/silent-invasion-clive-hamilton/book/9781743794807.html?gclid=Cj0KCQjw2PP1BRCiARIsAEqv-pTzMq_WgkybeNi2cTuLK6faAPk9l8V9lnfgu0x37xKpG3mQjvZ4vlAaAmwXEALw_wcB

Silent Invasion
Clive Hamilton

The Chinese Communist party attempted
to stop the publishing of this book because it outlines some of their plans to colonise
destabilise and eventually invade Australia.
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May 15, 2020 8:43am
- Inandout
  
  BM, not so silent in Melbourne and Sydney, they can be heard everywhere in the CBD.
  
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  May 15, 2020 9:41am
Simon

Job creation = bail out.

Job creation is Labour speak for bail out of billion dollar listed companies, over seas owned NZ companies & iwi.

Its a new language Comrades.
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May 15, 2020 8:47am
- cmm
  
  “Job creation” is also a way to shut down discussion:
  
  “We’re going to spend $x billion on a marshmallow factory to create jobs”
  “But we don’t need more sweet factories.”
  “Oh, so you’re against creating jobs!”
  
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  May 15, 2020 9:13am
I remember when

I rated the Leaders Budget Response Speech in order of impressiveness.
And, the winner is Winston Peters!!
BUGGER! Sorry I was holding the paper upside down.
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May 15, 2020 8:48am
- RW Capitalist
  
  In their attempt to win power….we ALL lose.
  
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  May 15, 2020 9:10am
plc

Most interesting observation re Budget was from Auckland Action Against Poverty Spokesman (and #10 on Greens List).

There is nothing in the budget for beneficiaries.

While factually correct it does indicate that no amount will ever be enough. They have just received a $25 pw rise in their “entitlement”.
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May 15, 2020 8:48am
- Maxx
  
  I expect to see with the slush fund they have left themselves a targeted helicopter payment to each beneficiary and student just ahead of the election.
  
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  May 15, 2020 9:00am
- Maggy Wassilieff
  
  They will get a lift out of poverty in about 3 months’ time.
  
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  May 15, 2020 9:18am
secondcumming

Anybody really believe the FBI does anything *accidentally* 😎

https://truepundit.com/fbi-accidentally-releases-name-of-saudi-official-involved-in-9-11-attacks/
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May 15, 2020 8:50am
- Komata
  
  SC@0850
  
  I’ll believe it if you’ll purchase a bridge I have for sale (Cash only, large denominations preferred).
  
  Thank you.
  
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  May 15, 2020 9:00am
- emmess
  
  Holy shit, can 2020 get any crazier?
  
  MSM are reporting it too
  https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/families-9-11-victims-seek-more-info-saudi-official-mistakenly-n1206416
  
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  May 15, 2020 9:11am
woodburner

The budget is a complete waste of time. Inconceiveable amounts of money being poured around, but no real definition of what it will deliver. More jobs.. for infrastructure projects that cant get enough workers at the best of times? What real assets is all that debt buying? The pet projects are all phantomware anyway, wheres the actual ambition???

On a positive – Trades training, I can get behind that, the apprenticeships model int his country has been borked for years.
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May 15, 2020 8:57am
- Rachael Membery
  
  Cheaper to just get the previous jobs up and running surely. They can’t all be in tourism.
  
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  May 15, 2020 1:43pm
Handyman

The sad truth is that most the people that Ardern “saved” will not make it through the coming flu season. The irony is that come the election, they will be gone, but the debt is forever.
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May 15, 2020 8:57am
lifesgood

I’m starting to think that the best thing would be for National to lose the election (I will still vote for them regardless). It will be a poisoned chalice if they win. How in heaven’s name will they fight their way out of this disastrous mess our unelected government has put us in? Better to let Labour compound their problems and then hopefully they will be dead to voters for a very long time
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May 15, 2020 9:01am
- kowtow
  
  If National don’t win this election ,Labour are going to squeeze us so hard our eyes will water.
  
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  May 15, 2020 12:13pm
- Rachael Membery
  
  I would still rather they try.
  
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  May 15, 2020 1:45pm
all true

We are now well and truly on our way to become a 2nd Venezuela!!!! and the young ones seem not to care about it either.
And where is actually the opposition, very quiet indeed.
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May 15, 2020 9:03am
- kowtow
  
  Zim Zealand.
  
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  May 15, 2020 12:14pm
lifesgood

Andrew Bolt expressed his deepest sympathy for New Zealanders and specifically named Ardern after the shocking pushing through of a law which removes civil liberties from New Zealanders. British and American television has also reported it. The fairy dust is falling off mighty fast. Bloody good! The world is finally waking up to what we have to put up with.
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May 15, 2020 9:04am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Not fairy dust. It is iron pyrites – fool’s gold
  
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  May 15, 2020 10:34am
Dave Mann

Watching, reading and listening to the huge amount of reportage on the Chinese virus, I am seriously wondering what has happened to humanity.

People keep quoting ‘infection rates’ – seemingly oblivious to the fact that testing regimes, samples and methods vary so wildly around the world as to make these figures almost useless as an indicator of anything. Also, antibody testing seems to indicate that the vast majority of those infected show either very few or no symptoms whatsoever. Who knows what the true figure is…. but some Swedish epidemiologicist on Rebuilding Paradise the other night told Paul Henry it could be 75x the number of people who are known to have the virus!

Given all this bullshit, lies, propaganda and ‘modelling’ flying around, surely the only true measure of how dangerous this Chinese virus is must be deaths per head of population? Paul Henry is an extremely intelligent guy, but even he falls into the trap of quoting ‘death rates’ based on totally unreliable ‘infection numbers’. The story is the same across all media – and I’m only quoting him as a recent example.

So how deadly is this terrible new plague for which the whole world has almost destroyed its civilisation? By simply googling a country’s population, then ‘Covid-19 deaths’ I came up with the fact that the actual death rate worldwide varies somewhat by country but even at its worst it is staggeringly small.
Some examples:

USA 0.03% deaths by population
Sweden 0.03%
UK 0.04%
South Korea 0.0005%
Australia 0.0004%
NZ 0.0004%

Given that shitloads (to use a bona fide statistical term) of these ‘Covid-19 deaths’ are probably not primarily caused by the virus at all, how much sense does it make to rush around like frightened rabbits and destroy the whole world’s economy and its social stability over this?

I’m an old fart and I know that it’s quite common for people to think the world has gone mad as they get older…. but really, what the fuck is going on here? What are we doing to ourselves?
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May 15, 2020 9:05am
- RW Capitalist
  
  By comparison between 300000 and 400000 people
  DIE of malaria every year
  In AFRICA
  with no fuss
  and we have drugs for that.
  
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  May 15, 2020 10:22am
- kowtow
  
  Last night , and for the last few nights , TV 1 “news” has been covering the angle of the mysterious sickness among children thingy from the US.
  
  The story is accompanied by shots of sick youngsters in ICU all wired up etc .
  
  Last nights’ footage showed an ambulance with two out rider police cars , one front , one back , implying a youngster being tripley escorted to hospital .
  
  Why are police cars needed for such escorts ? Don’t ambulances have lights and sirens ?
  
  Matters not the media and political message is Project Fear , and if that’s the case , to what end ?
  
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  May 15, 2020 12:24pm
RW Capitalist

On the AM Show
Garner: How will we pay back this debt?
Robertson: With economic growth.

Me: What economic growth?
Even Treasury says we will have -4.6% “growth.
No part of your budget addresses “economic growth”
Just short term band aids to slow the decline, coupled with fanciful projects that will possibly pay dividends in 10 yrs. (apprenticeships)
There is no PLAN in your budget, just a bullet point wish list.
Q: Did Harry Potter lend you his wand? If not get off the stage and let a real finance minister and govt. take over.
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May 15, 2020 9:09am
- gorse
  
  I have to ask the question. Why was there not a vote of no confidence moved by National yesterday? I know it would have been defeated, but the news impact would have been phenomenal. It would have sent a clear message to Labour what the opposition thought of their budget.
  
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  May 15, 2020 10:58am
  - Komata
    
    Gorse@1058
    
    Why wasn’t there one? I would suggest because privately a lot of the Nats actually agree with what Labour et al are doing!
    
    For his own reasons Simon especially seems to do so; certainly his tepid actions and the lack of much real ‘Nat’ policy would seem to imply that possibility.
    
    On that basis, and since actions always speak louder than words, I don’t really think that there would ever be any chance of a Vote of No Confidence…
    
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    May 15, 2020 3:19pm
wreck1080

“Tesla’s readying a ‘million mile’ battery that could greatly lower the cost of EVs”

“General Motors said last month that its new generation of batteries will use 70 percent less cobalt, an expensive and precious material that is often mined by workers who are subject to brutal conditions. ”

Eat my shorts climate denialists. Science usually wins.
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May 15, 2020 9:13am
- Simon Gotlieb
  
  Having said that, science is pushed along usually by a dire need for something, so there’s an argument to be made that the climate change debate has spurred greater scientific endeavour, and the million mile battery is one example of how we’ll benefit from that.
  
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  May 15, 2020 10:50am
Manolo

Maybe China has already informed the WHO?
https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/world/europe-must-brace-for-second-and-more-deadly-wave-of-coronavirus-in-winter-who-official-warns/ar-BB145jnD

Europe should brace for a second and more deadly wave of coronavirus which could hit in winter, a top World Health Organisation official has warned.

Dr Hans Kluge, WHO director for Europe, delivered the stark warning on Thursday as countries begin to relax their Covid-19 lockdown restrictions.
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May 15, 2020 9:17am
KevO'Brien

Ardern , Mother of the Nation covering fear with familial calm. Robertson, beside her, Father of the Nation adding solidity and peace to all.

Classic playbook for a takeover. What right have they to lockdown NZ on their say so? They have no reasonable qualifications beyond tywford. Training in fishnchip handling is not sufficient for managing a Nation. Helping a Student Union with some bookkeeping is too little for a Minister of Finance.
Their scheming is coming to the light.

Ardern’s mental health has to be questioned–power has conquered her anxiety.
Is Queenstown to become Ghosttown? Once we had Minsters who could deal with crises now they are directed by an up and coming to be kindy mum. That may give good feelings but how are people going to be employed and what are we going to do with the excess not able to be employed? Are former Pilots to be re-directed to rebuilding waterway tributaries?
What about our relations with the rest of the world? Economic activity does mean interaction with people not zoom proxies for people. We don’t hug computes. NZ has set itself up on tourism and exports. What if our exports are refused as we refuse their people? There is no legal mandate to enforce the degree of isolated visited upon us.
This immediate change to ‘El Commie Niutirani has to be stopped immediately. We have seen them, now they must go.
☑️☑️OUT NOW ☑️☑️
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May 15, 2020 9:20am
- RW Capitalist
  
  Summing up.
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRWzDWkgbTo
  
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  May 15, 2020 9:37am
- burt
  
  Is Queenstown to become Ghosttown
  
  No Comrade, lots of public money will be spent there building social housing so people eligible for WFF can be employed on minimum wage so wealthy Asians can continue to enjoy the place.
  
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  May 15, 2020 9:52am
  - KevO'Brien
    
    Have you tried buying anything in Queenstown? Great idea,a State Housing Village among our premier tourist resort.
    
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    May 15, 2020 11:55am
Maggy Wassilieff

Australia is up front about the massive job losses they’ve experienced during the last couple of months.
https://www.canberratimes.com.au/story/6756390/a-tough-day-for-australia-almost-600000-jobs-lost-but-could-have-been-worse/?cs=14350

NZ seems reluctant to divulge our numbers.
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May 15, 2020 9:30am
- the deity formerly known as nigel6888
  
  That’s because 100,000 of them will be soaked up in public sector “work schemes” and won’t show on the official statistics until after the election, comrade!
  
  Bwuhahahaha!
  
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  May 15, 2020 9:35am
  - Simon Gotlieb
    
    Hmmm… job are jobs aren’t they? Or should we only count jobs that are created and sustained by the private sector?
    
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    May 15, 2020 10:51am
    - Libertarians are right
      
      They are jobs, but not ones that drive growth. Driving growth is really important because, as Robertson says: “growth is what’s going to put us back in a surplus”.
      
      None of Labour’s policies are allowing businesses to recover and invest which drives both growth and jobs.
      Instead they’re just kicking the unemployment problem down the road.
      
      They might be doing good work, but they’re basically just working for the dole.
      
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      May 15, 2020 11:05am
      - greybeard
        
        Correct: a manual worker on $25 / hour helping to produce goods for export is doing more for the NZ economy than a council pen-pusher on $200k.
        
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        May 15, 2020 11:23am
    - cmm
      
      Gotlieb, I refuse to believe you are that stupid.
      
      No, jobs are not jobs. Some are real productive jobs that add value to society and some are stupid “make work”.
      
      Yes we should only count productive jobs. Most private sector jobs are reasonably productive because there is little motivation in the private sector to employ people with no value output.
      
      Similarly, we should only count productive degrees in universities. Basket weaving degrees should not be counted as real output from universities.
      
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      May 15, 2020 11:58am
      - UrbanNeocolonialist
        
        Don’t refuse, he demonstrates it daily. It’s his faith-based approach to interpreting reality.
        
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        May 15, 2020 3:33pm
  - KevO'Brien
    
    Twyford principles will see a work scheme talked about over the next 5 years. This has all happened previously and ultimately no one was prepared to manage a work scheme for those on the dole. Their costs were not met and the “workers” were too incapable or unreliable. Even the Sallies found them impossible to handle.
    
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    May 15, 2020 12:02pm
- burt
  
  Comrade, Squealer will be around shortly to read out the impressive statistics for how much better off we all are now we have Napoleon in charge.
  
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  May 15, 2020 9:50am
  - the deity formerly known as nigel6888
    
    I think Simon Squealer has already turned up! See Got.Leib above.
    
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    May 15, 2020 3:51pm
- Libertarians are right
  
  The left are already using Aussie’s numbers as justification. Our wage subsidies are delaying our true numbers though (at an even greater cost than the actual job losses would be).
  It’s simply not a case of comparing apples with apples.
  
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  May 15, 2020 10:36am
  - Rachael Membery
    
    Is it ever?
    
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    May 15, 2020 2:45pm
- cmm
  
  It is easy to create “jobs”.
  
  It is much harder to create value.
  
  Creating jobs with “shovel ready” thinking is easy. Get thousands of people out there with shovels building a road. Better still, only let them use a bent teaspoon and you create 50x as many jobs.
  
  Of course it will be a crap road.
  
  Far better to build a road using machinery, GPS and lasers etc, but that won’t employ as many people: mainly a few engineers, skilled machine operators and one or two unskilled to hold the stop/go signs.
  
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  May 15, 2020 11:54am
- kowtow
  
  Our media party need to be getting the message out but the level of reporting is at queues outside hairdressers / teddy bears / coffee etc
  
  Hopeless.
  
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  May 15, 2020 12:29pm
F E Smith

I am supposed to be working, but noticed this interesting piece in Powerline about the Democratic National Committee emails. It seems that Crowdstrike, the company the DNC used to investigate the server hack (those are the servers they wouldn’t give to the FBI), admitted to Congress that they have no evidence that it was a Russian hack. Or, if i read this correctly, that it was a hack at all! They ‘believe’ that the Russians did it, is the best they can say.

Which of course backs up Assange’s assertion that the emails he received had no evidence of coming from Russia.

This is backed apparently by Mueller’s evidence that it ‘appears’ it was Russia. In other words, they don’t know.

https://www.realclearinvestigations.com/articles/2020/05/13/hidden_over_2_years_dem_cyber-firms_sworn_testimony_it_had_no_proof_of_russian_hack_of_dnc_123596.html
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May 15, 2020 9:45am
- Ed Snack
  
  And nobody in all the transcripts released last week had any evidence that they could cite that anyone in the Trump campaign colluded or conspired with teh Russians. Yet many of those who gave evidence went on TV and proclaimed that not only was there evidence of collusion, but that they’d seen it. Special note of Evelyn Farkas, a 20 year Intelligence specialist who admitted, under oath, that she had no evidence but she had “suspicions”. When asked why she had suspicions, she said that because she’d read about it in the newspapers…. Newspapers she’d probably leaked fake information to !
  
  Like Adam Schiff, publicly proclaiming in public announcements that he had clear evidence of collusion and worse, and yet he’s never been challenged to produce it – and to date he hasn’t done so. A blatant outright liar who has lied to Congress and to the public.
  
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  May 15, 2020 12:34pm
  - Rachael Membery
    
    Sounds like Wynstone.
    
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    May 15, 2020 3:02pm
niggly

Went to the supermarket around lunchtime yesterday, first day under the (redefined) level 2, anyway was pleased to see plenty of “elderly” people walking in the sunshine into the supermarket.

BTW by elderly I don’t mean to insult a great many of KB’s readership/commentators … but I guess these people were in the 70’s/80’s, people that I (and we) have all grown up with, and worked with, over the years and have seen alot of things in their lifetimes and are from an age when a spade was called a spade and common-sense prevailed. Anyway I digress.

I felt both incredibly glad and sad – glad to see everyday members of NZ’s society, finally getting some freedom after being told by the government (for the “right” health reasons) to stay locked up at home isolated for the last 7 weeks (that’s the sad part), rejoining society again and engaging with people from all walks and ages in life, those important little things that are incredibly important to the human condition and well-being.

So I say to these “elderly” people, welcome back, I may not know you but I’m so glad to see you all again. You are us, you are NZ and a hopeless govt can’t take that away from you!
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May 15, 2020 10:08am
- chaos
  
  Not sure about where other people live but the elderly here have been walking to, driving to the supermarket under the lock down, going for daily walks, stopping 2 metres away to talk to people on their walks.
  
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  May 15, 2020 11:02am
  - niggly
    
    Heh, I should have said it was nice to see so many (rather than the usual 1 or 2 during lockdown)!
    
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    May 15, 2020 11:28am
All_on_Red

All the Adam Schiff Transcripts
WSJ Editorial Board

Newly released documents show he knew all along that there was no proof of Russia-Trump collusion.

By May 12, 2020
Americans expect that politicians will lie, but sometimes the examples are so brazen that they deserve special notice. Newly released Congressional testimony shows that Adam Schiff spread falsehoods shamelessly about Russia and Donald Trump for three years even as his own committee gathered contrary evidence.

The House Intelligence Committee last week released 57 transcripts of interviews it conducted in its investigation into Russia’s meddling in the 2016 election. The committee probe started in January 2017 under then-Chair Devin Nunes and concluded in March 2018 with a report finding no evidence that the Trump campaign conspired with the Kremlin. Most of the transcripts were ready for release long ago, but Mr. Schiff oddly refused to release them after he became chairman in 2019. He only released them last week when the White House threatened to do it first.

Now we know why. From the earliest days of the collusion narrative, Mr. Schiff insisted that he had evidence proving the plot. In March 2017 on MSNBC, Mr. Schiff teased that he couldn’t “go into particulars, but there is more than circumstantial evidence now.”

In December 2017 he told CNN that collusion was a fact: “The Russians offered help, the campaign accepted help. The Russians gave help and the President made full use of that help.” In April 2018, Mr. Schiff released his response to Mr. Nunes’s report, stating that its finding of no collusion “was unsupported by the facts and the investigative record.”

None of this was true, and Mr. Schiff knew it. In July 2017, here’s what former Director of National Intelligence James Clapper told Mr. Schiff and his colleagues: “I never saw any direct empirical evidence that the Trump campaign or someone in it was plotting/conspiring with the Russians to meddle with the election.” Three months later, former Obama Attorney General Loretta Lynch agreed that while she’d seen “concerning” information, “I don’t recall anything being briefed up to me.” Former Deputy AG Sally Yates concurred several weeks later: “We were at the fact-gathering stage here, not the conclusion stage.”

The same goes for the FBI agents who started the collusion probe in 2016. Most remarkable, former FBI Deputy Director Andrew McCabe admitted the bureau’s reason for opening the case was nonsense. Asked in December 2017 why the FBI obtained a secret surveillance warrant on former Trump aide Carter Page, rather than on George Papadopoulos (whose casual conversation with a foreign diplomat was the catalyst for the probe), Mr. McCabe responded: “Papadopoulos’ comment didn’t particularly indicate that he was the person that had had—that was interacting with the Russians.” No one else was either.

On it went, a parade of former Obama officials who declared under oath they’d seen no evidence of collusion or conspiracy—Susan Rice, Ben Rhodes, Samantha Power. Interviews with Trump campaign or Administration officials also yielded no collusion evidence. Mr. Schiff had access to these transcripts even as he claimed he had “ample” proof of collusion and wrote his false report.

He’s still making it up. Last week he said the transcripts contain “evidence of the Trump campaign’s efforts to invite, make use of, and cover up Russia’s help in the 2016 presidential election.”

The question we’d ask our friends in the media is when are they going to stop playing the fool by putting him on the air? Mr. Schiff is a powerful figure with access to secrets that the rest of us don’t have and can’t check. He misled the country repeatedly on an issue that consumed American politics.

President Trump often spreads falsehoods and invents facts, but at least he’s paid a price for it in media criticism and public mistrust. An industry of media fact checkers is dedicated to parsing his every word. As for Mr. Schiff, no one should ever believe another word he says.’
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May 15, 2020 10:36am
- Im Right
  
  Schiff’s day in front of a select committee is coming soon, there is enough evidence out there that he has known for over 3 years that there was no Russian Collusion, his subsequent lies will end in him refusing to either go in front of the committee and/or plead the fifth whilst outside the room saying Trump is persecuting him…irony 🙂
  
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  May 15, 2020 11:16am
curry4me

In depth hearings on Obama Administration abuses announced.
https://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2020/05/14/breaking-graham-announces-hearings-n2568817
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May 15, 2020 11:04am
- Batman
  
  And like Benghazi, they’ll be a show trial that will find absolutely nothing.
  
  I look forward to the repeat of the hilarious press conferences from after the Benghazi joke.
  
  2 16
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  May 15, 2020 11:07am
  - All_on_Red
    
    You realise that illegally spying on US Citizens is a crime?
    Joe Biden is on that list of those who requested unmasking.
    Then there is the problem of what some of them said at Hearings about it.
    All this is now with Durham.
    
    Latest news is how ex Ukraine Ambassador Yodanovitch was actually working with Burisma to stop investigations into them about corruption and Hunter Bidens involvement.
    Again, she might have a problem with her evidence at Hearings.
    
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    May 15, 2020 12:36pm
curry4me

An expert on Brexit, and the fourth Reich speaks out.
https://www.facebook.com/goodmoaningfrance/?__tn__=kC-R&eid=ARA7Lu2wcemfYCsCPPjKQXPJRA84TFJMEH8cNAqC-foFHNfXJMk1HfZQ5YejNUmSjsbNg7409GOBAf4l&hc_ref=ARS4H2tWhXNlBhXjAkTsryFDDd5l9FSe2Fo_rytKuWpDDt1XEu3lka0Qd8KpFbOhmCo&fref=nf&__xts__%5B0%5D=68.ARCl7t2nv2NNUHnoRvQO6BXLKomlECldDnGtKxEMWaA5XI2DfZdIkXEljZ6Zc2flvJ-jT3a48nkGY-wooYtkueMPeAXhwGST59GOc8vhVTXKZTOI9z0gnw2XyYDWjoxcoZKqEu4UIzwq1lbPMFIfZXNiyGas5Q8F6nHko2G-ioYkTrY6jmrV0wEUI_ilbHChoTLYD6vIf4f1uvUb64FskfaJjvp1SmOQxSBG_i1axwFRF3wK7RE-jH-rSbdOM2gnwxRtuVHVLgb7Giw6YoGijXY197bSbh3la77CpnzQGItDvT2Ix-LQMJpETSBN-MEB8cfOs1sJM4WGax5vSBCnTl57G2YhGu17fzHhLxDH5NPJhQcKGKVgtBALS3y9LXvySkuAdg
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May 15, 2020 11:04am
- Jack5
  
  Hi Curry4me, passing on a tip.
  
  A poster pointed out to me recently when I posted a long internet link that if you whack off everything after the question mark the link works just as well.
  
  ?
  
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  May 15, 2020 11:33am
  - curry4me
    
    Jack5: Thanks for the tip.
    
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    May 15, 2020 9:45pm
Maggie Pie

Was waiting to be served in the dairy this morning and overheard a dear old lady telling Raj “….that at the Councils request, she was doing her bit to save water”. She was saying, “Her grandson had already been over to put a brick inside the toilet tank, and from tomorrow she was only going to bath once a week”.
I was telling my partner about it, and even he agreed, “People like that are salt of the earth. It means people like us wont have to do SFA”
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May 15, 2020 11:10am
- rockape
  
  I am sure beneficiaries have the same opinion on workers as your husband expressed.
  
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  May 15, 2020 1:41pm
krazykiwi

UK Covid-19 ‘related’ deaths now at 41,000. Horrible, yes, but it is still lower than the excess deaths attributed to flu in any of the 1998, 1999 and 2014 flu seasons.
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May 15, 2020 11:42am
- UrbanNeocolonialist
  
  And probably about 15-20% of way to herd immunity.
  
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  May 15, 2020 3:38pm
Critical Thinker

10 Ways Coronavirus Will Change the World ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfE8ctRTjAQ
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May 15, 2020 11:53am
Durden

NZ is Level 2, hopefully heading our way to Level 1 soon.

Jacinda says our R0 is well under 1, implying that we should be fine? Will we ? What could happen?

Here is an article worth reading.
https://www.santafe.edu/news-center/news/transmission-t-024-cristopher-moore-on-the-heavy-tail-of-outbreaks

Here is a summary :
1. If R0 is bigger than 1, cases grow exponentially, and an epidemic spreads across the population. But if we can keep R0 below 1, we can limit the disease to isolated outbreaks and keep it under control.
2. But R0 is only an average.
3. R0 varies wildly, not just from region to region, but across social space, as well.
4. Even if R0 < 1, outbreaks can be surprisingly large.
5. Like earthquakes and forest fires, outbreaks have a “heavy tail” where large events are common.
6. The tail of large events gets even heavier if we add superspreading. We often talk of “superspreaders” as individuals with higher viral loads, or who by choice or necessity interact with many others. But it’s more accurate to talk about superspreading events and situations — like the Biogen meeting, the chorus rehearsal, or the pork processing plant, as well as prisons and nursing homes — where the virus may have infected many of those present.

What does all this mean?
* First, it can be misleading to look at statewide or national averages and celebrate if R0 seems to be falling below 1. The epidemic could still be raging in particular places or among particular groups.

* Second, even if R0 is below 1, we need to prepare for hot spots. Even if the average outbreak is small, large outbreaks will occur due to superspreading or simply by chance. If we do a fantastic job at testing and contact tracing — using both technology and human effort — we will get this pandemic under control, but for the foreseeable future there will be times and places where it flares up and strains local resources.
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May 15, 2020 11:59am
- cmm
  
  As soon as people start taking R0 (or any number) too seriously, you know they are trying to make a sketchy claim sound like it is backed with solid science.
  
  As that article points out, averages mean nothing.
  
  Did you know that as a New Zealander you have a 48% chance of getting pregnant during your life?
  Of course that’s a nonsense stat. Women have a 96% chance and men a 0% chance.
  
  And you have a 7% chance of getting type 2 diabetes in NZ. Well, not really. Over 80% of type 2 diabetes occurs in obese people. If you are massively obese (BMI: 40+) then your chance of getting type 2 diabetes is somewhere around 40%, if you are not obese (BMI less than 30) then your chances are less than 2%.
  
  As you say, those R0 numbers are useless because the number is very low in less vulnerable people and is higher in more vulnerable people.
  
  And nor does it remain constant through time. As people get infected and build antibodies and/or die the R0 number of their group goes down.
  
  The same with the numbers saying x% of people who get a disease will die. Another bollocks number. The vulnerable die first. Once the Grim Reaper has run his scythe through a population once, there are less to harvest second time around.
  
  No wonder the models based on these numbers fail. It is all Garbage In, Garbage Out.
  
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  May 15, 2020 4:16pm
Maggie Pie

After the best part of nearly 20 years, I’m seriously thinking about giving SkyTV the flik.
Sat their last night watching Nigella, and UK Masterchef on the Food channel. When the credits rolled, i noted both programs were made MMX11. Yep, already 8 years old!!
Why are we being forced to watch this outdated crap? My partner reckons it’s because Sky buy up all the old shit for SFA.
Surely, the least they could do for their subscribers, is to put in the synopsis the year the shows were actually made?

Just saying 🙁
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May 15, 2020 12:50pm
- lifesgood
  
  Yes, they are playing two episodes every day of an American artist, Bob Ross, doing demonstrations. He is complete with an enormous afro. The programmes are from the 1980s!!! Feeding us outdated crap. Not worth the fee.
  
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  May 15, 2020 3:04pm
  - Maggie Pie
    
    Exactly! My partner was watching some old crap about Adolof Hitler on the History chanel the other night – and it was in black & white!!
    
    7 1
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    May 15, 2020 4:26pm
    - mikenmildagain
      
      The Hitler Channel…
      
      2 1
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      May 15, 2020 6:03pm
- Captain Mainwaring
  
  I patiently hang onto Sky in the hope that one day motorsport, golf, rugby and cricket will come back.
  But in the meantime it’s money down the toilet.
  
  6 1
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  May 15, 2020 3:40pm
  - greybeard
    
    UKTV: the best.
    
    3 1
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    May 15, 2020 4:09pm
- cmm
  
  C’mon Maggie, “”forced” is over-egging the pudding.
  
  The reason they put this outdated crap on is because people still watch it. They might bitch and moan, but they still watch. More importantly they keep paying their subs.
  
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  May 15, 2020 4:19pm
rouppe

So this contact tracing thing where we have to write our name on a piece of paper at every shop we enter.

If I were to catch covid-19, they are relying on me remembering every single place I’ve visited for up to 14 days, and what day it was.

Good luck with that. The only hope they have is that I have Google location services running and could possibly use my timeline
6 1
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May 15, 2020 2:00pm
- cmm
  
  rouppe: Just expose yourself to the checkout assistant at each shop and the cops will do all your tracking for you.
  
  #MustIThinkOfEverything?
  
  14 1
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  May 15, 2020 2:20pm
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Checkout people have been on Pornhub for 7 weeks.
    Social distancing!
    BJ with a facemask?????? LOL
    
    3 3
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    May 15, 2020 3:17pm
- krazykiwi
  
  Be careful what you wish for: COVID-19 and the Normalization of Mass Surveillance
  
  2 2
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  May 15, 2020 3:33pm
Steve Otto(North Shore)

“Quarantine is when you restrict the movement of sick people. Tyranny is when you restrict the movement of healthy people.”
Signing in and out of mall shops is bullshit. Even my employer has to have employees sign in and out. Went to do some WOFs today and had to sign in as ‘visitor’
Jacinda! A lot of people are going for your jugular.
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May 15, 2020 2:56pm
- KevO'Brien
  
  Sounds & feels like real Stasi country. I don’t like being at home but who wants to go out into that regulated swamp.
  Fear has turned brains to turnips. Hearing planning for the reopening of a small centre this morning I was appalled at the cloud of compliance that was being walked through as though this was the norm. The brainwashed are now leading the blind.
  
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  May 15, 2020 3:22pm
- cmm
  
  All this shit will just end up in the too hard basket within a week.
  
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  May 15, 2020 3:58pm
oldfella

Angry Andy will love this Scottish attempt to clamp down on so-called ‘hate’ speech, or anything else the government of the day considers ‘not kind’.
https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/05/15/hate-speech-blasphemy-for-the-21st-century/
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May 15, 2020 3:15pm
greybeard

https://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/food-wine/drinks/121497462/why-ill-never-go-back-to-leo-molloys-headquarters
So a self-professed lesbian says that because a restaurant owner does not like homosexuals and lesbians and other indeterminate genders that he is a BAD person.
In her eyes only people who agree with HER views are GOOD persons.
Why is it wrong for a human to hold a view that homosexuals and lesbians are not acceptable ?
Is it equally wrong to think that people who think that cruelty to helpless animals is not normal or acceptable ?
In both cases we have a situation where a person has a perfectly valid and allowable belief.
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May 15, 2020 4:25pm
- mikenmildagain
  
  Homosexuality is normal and acceptable. Cruelty to helpless animal is neither normal nor acceptable.
  I hope this clears things up for you.
  
  2 5
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  May 15, 2020 5:09pm
  - Nickc2
    
    Homosexuality is normal and acceptable. BS, I am entitled to my beliefs and no body can take them away. IMHO, it only became legal when too many in the legal fraternity and politicians were sprung.
    
    4 0
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    May 15, 2020 8:36pm
- Inandout
  
  greybeard, for Islamists worldwide being gay is not acceptable. Join their club.
  
  4 1
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  May 15, 2020 5:19pm
- chaos
  
  Im sorry you find such statements as proclaiming that his guests weren’t the type to spread a virus unlike the gay community be an acceptable comments. Speaks more of you than anything
  
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  May 15, 2020 5:28pm
Inandout

Notice how the ‘my car my driving’ feature an aggressive male voice, but the ‘feel good’ radio messages a soft voiced female?
9 2
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May 15, 2020 5:17pm
chaos

* ACT leader David Seymour wants MP pay cuts to be made compulsory, citing what he described as an “offensive” clause in the legislation making it optional.

“A voluntary measure is offensive to workers who have had no choice but to take a pay cut or have lost their job,” Seymour said. “If the Government won’t make it compulsory, they must make it transparent.”*

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/05/david-seymour-wants-mp-pay-cuts-made-compulsory-citing-offensive-voluntary-option.html
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May 15, 2020 5:29pm
krazykiwi

In response to questions about tax hikes, Ardern said: “Know us by our deeds,”

Oh my God. Where to begin. Deeds like covering up for a sexual predator, lying continuously about PPE and flu vaccines, cancelling an entire industry by decree, standing by while your ministers flouted the law, illegally directing healthy NZers to be quarantined, gifting money to horse racing while tens of thousands of NZ business go to the wall, overseeing the greatest economic destruction in New Zealand’s history….

… those sort of deeds?
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May 15, 2020 5:34pm
- chaos
  
  And let’s add
  
  * Finance Minister Grant Robertson says tax increases aren’t coming soon, but won’t rule them out further down the track.*
  
  https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/05/coronavirus-grant-robertson-not-ruling-out-tax-hikes-further-down-track.html
  
  6 1
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  May 15, 2020 5:43pm
- MJHNZ
  
  And building 100,000 kiwibuild houses……
  
  5 0
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  May 15, 2020 7:08pm
Gus87

Guess what JA’s government is good at? Please tell me I can’t think of one.
4 0
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May 15, 2020 9:01pm
- niggly
  
  Easy, they are good at the opposite of whatever they say or do.
  
  *Being Open and Transparent? Nope a failure!
  
  *Being Secretive and Opaque? Yes, they are rather good at it!
  
  Oh and let’s not forget the best one of all – JA told the nation in 2017 that she doesn’t lie!
  
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  May 15, 2020 10:22pm
- Paulus Gnome
  
  Lying
  
  3 0
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  May 15, 2020 11:04pm

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