General Debate 30 May 2021

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Maggy Wassilieff

Fertiliser and Belarus

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2021/05/opinion-new-zealand-foreign-affairs-minister-nanaia-mahuta-is-ruffling-feathers-as-her-words-are-closely-watched-internationally.html

https://www.intellinews.com/eu-to-target-belarusian-potash-exports-211696/
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May 30, 2021 8:03am
- Stellaboxer
  
  The degree to which some believe that the international community takes any notice of this country is astounding. Ardern’s deity status is equally something that exists only in the pages of ideologically aligned foreign media. These types of stories are like a child whistling in the dark to convince themselves that all’s well
  
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  May 30, 2021 8:26am
- Paulus Gnome
  
  ‘Mahuta is undoubtedly ruffling feathers. But if what appears to be her underlying strategy succeeds – moving Wellington back towards Beijing, while doing just enough to keep traditional Western allies on board – then she might just have created a new diplomatic model for others to follow.’
  
  She is not that clever, it will be an accident more than design if this is the outcome.
  
  Outsiders will be watching her for entertainment value rather than any decisive insightful political comment.
  
  ‘Hey look! There’s that munter again who her buddies got to her with a sharpie when she passed out last time and she can’t wash it off!’
  
  Clown car politics from the shallowest talent pool in our history.
  
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  May 30, 2021 8:35am
  - kevn
    
    @P G… She thinks ‘so clever’ but in reality just setting NZ up for the CCP.
    
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    May 30, 2021 8:48am
    - kowtow
      
      Don’t lay this all at her door.
      
      Both major parties are donkey deep going back to the start of the “free trade” lies .
      
      And our Media Pardy who should have been holding power to account were accomplices , all they could do was run stories about the marvellous Rewi Alley.
      
      And the CCP has a right to be miffed . We sold our soul to the devil , they simply want us to keep up our side of the bargain.
      
      But we’re not alone .
      
      “The focus is actually more on the West and what they’re doing, what they got wrong. How they mishandled, misunderstood or simply ignored some of what was happening, often because they were single-handedly pursuing stronger economic ties with Beijing, often at the expense of caring about human rights issues,” she said.”
      
      https://hongkongfp.com/2021/05/22/interview-how-the-west-tried-to-curry-favour-with-an-expansionist-china/
      
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      May 30, 2021 10:23am
- krazykiwi
  
  The Ryanair hijacking was bad enough to demand some kind of response. However I’d suggest Europe is still majorly pissed at Lukashenka for mocking their Covid-19 response. Belarus’s response was the least authoritarian in Europe. Europe’s actions are diplomatic/economic revenge with the Ryanair situation being the acceptable trigger.
  
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  May 30, 2021 8:38am
  - Fidel Cashflow
    
    krazy
    You’re onto it. Who is and who isn’t an “enemy” comes down to nothing more than geopolitics. Does anyone seriously think that countries like Russia, Iran, North Korea, Syria, Belarus, Iraq under Sadam Hussein and especially China are ever criticised and demonised for any other reason than the fact that they don’t play ball under the hegemony of the American Regime? It’s not due to anything objective. We blindly accept the propaganda promulgated by the Americans. The Saudis for instance are a terrible regime, but they are in favour with Washington, so they get a pass. The Americans accept countries that play ball even if they are despotic regimes.
    
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    May 30, 2021 10:07am
    - Nickc2
      
      And countries that contribute to the Biden family’s financial interests are never subjected to scrutiny by America’s MSM (minus FOX News) or the current political Regime.
      
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      May 30, 2021 12:32pm
      - Ed Snack
        
        That’s the leverage that those state’s governments have now.
        
        And naughty Joe, not only has a photograph surfaced of him (while he was VP too) meeting with Hunter and some of Hunters business clients, details of another meeting were also released in an email found on Hunter’s laptop. Old lying Joe eh, never knew anything about Hunters dealings and never met anyone…
        
        And what about his super creepy comments on a little girl in his “audience”, Creepy Joe is never far away when it comes to children eh ?
        
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        May 30, 2021 6:58pm
  - Ed Snack
    
    Not really, everyone forgets that not so long ago the US made the Europeans force down the Bolivian Ambassador’s aircraft in Austria because they thought that Edward Snowden might be onboard – he wasn’t.
    
    So is this sort of thing only unacceptable if someone the US disapproves of does it ?
    
    I can agree that overflights of this sort should not in fact be forced to land, but also that the outrage or protests should apply equally to all.
    
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    May 30, 2021 6:45pm
- The only red for me is that of Manchester United
  
  I have several friends in both Russia and Belarus. To these two countries New Zealand is only known for one thing. The film “Lord Of The Rings”. Both countries firmly look west to Europe. New Zealand is insignificant. A travel ban sounds all well and good but for the average Russian citizen who would love to visit New Zealand, the airfare here is close to a year’s salary. And as I have explained to them, the cost of everyday living would strip them of all financial reserves. A travel ban is meaningless. Russian’s require a visa to enter New Zealand anyway. One friend had been approved to study here last year but Covid changed that. She has not had any updates from her New Zealand place of learning. She like many other Russian friends I have have already received their Covid vaccine. The main export of Belarus is tractors. I doubt many of those make it to New Zealand anyway. The European sanctions only hurt the ordinary citizens. It is quite difficult to obtain Italian parmesan cheese due to sanctions.
  
  Is a tweet an official statement by a minister? Or is it a reaction to a news story she sees on TV. Does she receive regular international briefings? Is the foreign minister away of Alexi Navalny’s past? His nationalist views? His anti-semitic comments?
  
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  May 30, 2021 8:52am
- JackRabbit
  
  “Minister Nanaia Mahuta is ruffling feathers as her words are closely watched internationally.”
  
  Yes, and all for the wrong reasons.
  
  I used to love watching Fawlty Towers, but not as a hospitality training manual. Like Fawlty Towers, smart, intelligent and objective people around the world are watching Nanaia Mahuta as you might watch Basil and Manuel lurch from episode to episode, from food poisoning to rats running loose in the restaurant and kitchen. And all the while being rude and obtuse towards guests.
  
  Those dominating the media narrative, claiming Nanaia as some sort of force for good, are as blind and insecure as those vocal townspeople claiming how fine the Emperors new clothes were.
  
  Smart, intelligent, and objective people probably abide by Will Durant’s Quote: “Nothing is often a good thing to do and always a good thing to say.”
  
  If you see a clown show where the lead characters are making idiots of themselves, smart, intelligent, and objective people will just smile to themselves, and make a note to avoid the “mad hatters tea party”. As investors, they will also move NZ down the list of preferred countries to invest in. Who would want to invest in Fawlty Towers?
  
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  May 30, 2021 11:40am
  - surfing
    
    She probably only got the job because she is a maori, so don’t have much time for her.
    
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    May 30, 2021 4:22pm
    - softail 1450
      
      surfing, it’s obvious she didn’t get the the job because of her awareness of foreign affairs that’s for sure.
      But hey, ask her about a chin tattoo and she’s the one.
      
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      May 30, 2021 4:44pm
      - surfing
        
        I don’t have an issue with the chin tattoo, people should be allowed to express their culture and she is not hurting anyone by doing so.
        
        But, that doesn’t mean that I find them aesthetically pleasing.
        
        I can’t get it out of my mind that chin tattoos look like the person has vomited and the dark bits are dribbling down their chin.
        
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        May 30, 2021 7:17pm
  - Ed Snack
    
    I think I can recall someone using some excerpts from Faulty Towers as part of a training seminar – excellent “what NOT to do” material.
    
    And Cleese and the others had a profitable little sideline in making instructional videos in a very similar vein. Start with an amusing demonstration in the best Monty Python manner on what not to do; followed by more on what the best way to do it was. You had to pay for those though.
    
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    May 30, 2021 7:10pm
Maggy Wassilieff

Stewardship land up for Grab?

30% of our Land under DoC control is classified as Stewardship land – it comprises 9% of NZ’s Land mass.

It’s about to undergo a reclassification process….. and I expect quite a lot to disappear from the public estate.

https://pointofordernz.wordpress.com/2021/05/29/jobs-for-the-boys-including-a-nat-govt-sets-up-two-panels-to-work-on-the-reclassification-of-docs-stewardship-land/#more-10746

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2021/05/greens-urge-government-stick-to-no-new-mines-on-conservation-land-commitment.html
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May 30, 2021 8:16am
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Here is a new item about death and reactions from the Covid vaccine. After recent anaphylaxis I refuse to take it. At 69, I am not done with this planet yet.
“Here is more on the tragic death:

In the first three months since launching the covid vaccines, the Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System (VAERS) has recorded over 228 cases of anaphylactic shock after administration of the covid vaccines.”
https://threepercenternation.com/2021/04/16/famous-cnn-analyst-dead-after-taking-pfizer-vaccine/?
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May 30, 2021 8:23am
- Benedict Yu
  
  I am sorry that you experienced that adverse event. But the numbers of anaphylaxis cases that you cite are about what would be expected. Anaphylaxis happens in very rare cases in all vaccines. It has been a known problem for 70 years. Children experience anaphylaxis to the MMR vaccine. In about the same proportion as you are citing here for the COVID vaccine. And we encourage all parents to vaccinate their children.
  
  https://www.worldallergy.org/ask-the-expert/questions/mmr-vaccine
  
  Given the unprecedented scale of the COVID vaccine roll out 228 adverse anaphylaxis events seems totally in line with what would be expected. It is simply a function of very large numbers of people vaccinated. Hundreds of millions of doses.
  
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  May 30, 2021 8:40am
  - Fidel Cashflow
    
    Still shilling the vaccine I see Benedict.
    
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    May 30, 2021 12:18pm
    - Benedict Yu
      
      No. I am expressing my view that I have come to based on evidence and reasoning. If you have different evidence and reasoning I would be happy to hear it. Ot you can behave like a dick. Either way I don’t give a damn whether you have the vaccine or not.
      
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      May 30, 2021 2:38pm
      - Fidel Cashflow
        
        Great. So stop telling me and others that we need one then. I’ve made my case elsewhere, so I don’t intend reiterating it again here.
        
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        May 30, 2021 5:17pm
      - Benedict Yu
        
        I’m not telling you to have the covid vaccine. About 8 percent of the population are die hard anti vaxxers. I learned 10 years ago that you can’t reason with them.
        
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        May 30, 2021 6:30pm
      - Ed Snack
        
        Benedict, I do think that there is a far higher rate of negative reactions (ranging from significant discomfort to death) for these vaccines than is usual.
        
        The VAERS system in the US is a purely voluntary system for reporting on adverse reactions and there are hundreds of thousands of reports now. These mRNA vaccines have not undergone the normal stage 3 testing that other vaccines go through, maybe they should.
        
        The ting is, we now know a hell of a lot more about Covid-19 than we did a year or so ago. The fatality rate for example, far lower than originally estimated, now it seems to be settling around 2 x the normal Flu rate – which is about the same as a bad flu strain rate. We also have tried and tested prophylaxis regimes available to reduce that significantly further – using Ivermectin, HCQ, Vit D, plus preliminary treatment for opportunistic infections and micro clotting incidents. These are not treatments for the severely affected but for those when they first test positive or develop minor symptoms.
        
        Maybe we should be being more cautious with regard to vaccination until the safety aspects are well understood. That goes especially for those in the younger age groups, at present on the best numbers available it is MORE dangerous for people under 20-25 to take the vaccine than to catch Covid, and the difference isn’t minor – Covid fatality rate is around 0.3 per 100K and vaccine fatalities are 1 per 100K. That’s from a 300K sample in, I think, Denmark.
        
        For those in much older age groups the risk calculus is quite different and it might well be that we should continue to vaccinate those at most risk, but certainly we should be reviewing the matter. I think you dismiss the risks too lightly, and I would urge you to research this more thoroughly.
        
        Trouble is, can we trust this government to have the wit or ability to properly assess the risks and decide accordingly.
        
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        May 30, 2021 7:23pm
  - Salacious Crumb
    
    The swine flu vaccine was pulled after 50 deaths in the US. The mortality numbers for the COVID vaccines is current 4400 in the US alone.
    
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    May 30, 2021 2:53pm
    - Batman
      
      Conflating data on people who died after having the vaccine but from other means i.e. hit by a car, natural causes, heart attacks. Is a tactic which the anti-vax nutbars have using to try and prove a false point.
      
      As yet, nobody has died as a direct result of the vaccine.
      
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      May 30, 2021 2:59pm
      - Salacious Crumb
        
        Really? That’s your argument? So the VAER is not proof that adverse events have occurred? I’ll give you a clue; it’s in the title of the registry. No conflation required but you continue your path to mentacide
        
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        May 30, 2021 3:11pm
      - softail 1450
        
        And Epstein dragged himself up on those bunks backwards aye Batman ??
        
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        May 30, 2021 4:50pm
      - Ed Snack
        
        Bloody oath Batman, you are not the most truthful of people. We know, but that is a particularly dishonest comment.
        
        There are a significant number of deaths solidly attributed to the various vaccines. Many from blood clotting disorders that are directly linked.
        
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        May 30, 2021 7:25pm
      - Keith White
        
        People have died as a direct result of the vaccine. Really, where do you get your alternate ‘facts’ from?
        
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        May 30, 2021 8:07pm
      - krazykiwi
        
        “Nobody has died as a direct result of the vaccine”
        
        Astounding ignorance, floodlit and on a pedestal for all to see.
        
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        May 31, 2021 6:49am
- fernglas
  
  Honestly Steve, the number of vaccines delivered will save umpteen lives more than might be imperilled by the vaccine. You don’t have to take it. That is your right. But don’t use your personal concerns to deny that for the majority of adults, the chances of dying from Covid far outweigh the chances of dying from an adverse vaccine reaction. And if you choose not to take the vaccine, don’t expect me to acquiesce in any restrictions on my freedom in order to protect you. You make the choice, you take the consequences.
  
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  May 30, 2021 8:40am
  - Simon
    
    “No. The benefits outweigh the risks by thousands of orders of magnitude.”
    
    Garbage. More healthy people will die or suffer permanent health damage from the Ro vaxxs than the Ro could ever kill or harm.
    
    If you are healthy i.e not 80 years old, obese and heart problems then you should not get the Ro vax,
    
    In the US already the Ro vax associated death count is 99% of all vaccine-associated deaths. Under 1% of other vaccine related deaths are from other safe and effective vaccines in common use.
    
    The utter garbage you have to believe that the Vaxx manufacturers are free from being sued for a vaccine that is safe and effective.
    
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    May 30, 2021 9:35am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Yeah well atm I will not take the risk, and save my life. Maybe in the future, but I had a nasty scare. I was also asleep, under general anesthetic.
    I will want to go back to Alaska one day, so it will be needed
    
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    May 30, 2021 9:56am
    - Northshoredoc
      
      Steve this is very muddy thinking on your part. The risks of taking the vaccine in a country like NZ are vanishingly small compared to catching this virus and getting a nasty illness when the borders re-open.
      
      Medsafe is collecting data on side effects of the vaccine as it is being rolled out and is reporting on a weekly basis.
      
      https://medsafe.govt.nz/COVID-19/safety-report-8.asp
      
      For the experienced scientific eye there is nothing that is of concern.
      
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      May 30, 2021 11:00am
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        I don’t need it. I am 69, fit, and still working. I am not an absent minded fool in a wheelchair, in a resthome. My work production is sometimes twice that of the young guys half my age. If I should ever get Covid, I will NOT die. 99% recovery rate
        
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        May 30, 2021 1:30pm
      - cha
        
        If I should ever get Covid, I will NOT die.
        
        And I bet you can fight lions too, eh Stevie.
        
        https://www.menshealth.com.au/new-study-reveals-8-per-cent-of-men-think-they-can-beat-a-lion-in-a-fist-fight
        
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        May 30, 2021 3:34pm
      - Benedict Yu
        
        “If I should ever get Covid, I will NOT die. 99% recovery rate.”
        
        No you probably will not die. But at 69 you will feel like you are dying for days. BTW at 69 your chances of dying are more like 6 percent than 1 percent. And you have about a 20 percent chance of being in hospital on oxygen.
        
        With respect, you are not thinking straight about relative risks.
        
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        May 30, 2021 5:03pm
    - BeeJay
      
      Steve, I’m not much older than you but they can vaccinate us until the cows come home if it means we can go see two of our children (who made the right decision to move to OZ for work some years ago) and 5 grandchildren, and 2 great grandsons (4 & 2) with a third great grandchild due at Christmas. If it reduces the risk of getting floored by COVID, why not! Get the second shot in a couple of weeks! Family is more important than a couple of needles, which may or may not be effective! At least we’re not going to be sitting here getting depressed watching the country go down the gurgler at the hands of a bunch of corrupt, lying, socialist commies!
      
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      May 30, 2021 2:41pm
      - Batman
        
        Great news for you and your family BeeJay! I hope you get to see your family asap!
        
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        May 30, 2021 3:00pm
      - softail 1450
        
        Steve Otto ” my work production is sometimes twice that of workmates half my age”, Seriously Steve spouting bullshit can’t be that taxing.
        
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        May 30, 2021 5:04pm
    - softail 1450
      
      S O , Are you related to Joey Biden ??
      
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      May 30, 2021 4:58pm
- tf78
  
  Steve, I’m just not into playing Russian Roulette. If I wanted to do that I would try and cross the Southern Motorway whilst on crutches.
  
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  May 30, 2021 9:01am
  - Loddenthinks
    
    Perfectly safe to do that at the right time of the day.
    
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    May 30, 2021 3:05pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  So I should put myself in possible danger to protect everyone else? There is a word for that – SOCIALISM.
  
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  May 30, 2021 10:03am
  - Wayne Mapp
    
    A ludicrous assertion that vaccine programs are socialism. Governments of all kinds have widespread vaccine programmes. This is another one. No, it is not compulsory, but you will probably find you soon won’t be travelling internationally unless you have a vaccination or a legitimate medical exemption, which won’t be given just because you don’t want a vaccination.
    
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    May 30, 2021 10:57am
    - Fidel Cashflow
      
      “No, it is not compulsory, but you will probably find you soon won’t be travelling internationally unless you have a vaccination or a legitimate medical exemption, which won’t be given just because you don’t want a vaccination.”
      
      No, such compelled vaccine programs are not socialism, they are totalitarian.
      
      Yours is just a semantic distinction Wayne. It may not be compulsory de jure (but I anticipate that won’t last long), but it will be compulsory de facto. I keep asking the question– but nobody has yet been able to give me an answer – that if masks work like they claim, then why should a mask be deemed insufficient protection?
      
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      May 30, 2021 12:02pm
    - lifesgood
      
      Anti vaxxers will always come up with reasons why.
      
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      May 30, 2021 12:03pm
      - dave_c_
        
        Those attempting to force us into taking the vaccine, will always come up with reasons why we should take it.
        I don’t believe them for one minute.
        
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        May 30, 2021 7:00pm
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      Pay attention. I have already said I will take it if I want to go to Alaska again. Just not taking it right now to keep you fearful sheep happy
      
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      May 30, 2021 1:35pm
      - fernglas
        
        It’s not us you are keeping happy. I have had both jabs, so I anticipate I should be free to travel, go to places without needing to wear a mask and enjoy social contact with anyone I want, even if the virus gets loose in New Zealand again. But if Ashley B tells me I can do none of these because so many people have refused the vaccine, for whatever reason, then I will ignore him. Civil disobedience 101. So if you don’t want the vaccine for whatever reason, that’s your choice. But don’t expect me to suffer the consequences of your decision.
        
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        May 30, 2021 5:15pm
  - Northshoredoc
    
    So you don’t want to vaccinate because ‘socialism’…. good grief !
    
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    May 30, 2021 11:02am
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      You want to be controlled by Jaspinda? go ahead. I will not be controlled
      
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      May 30, 2021 1:36pm
    - mikenmildagain
      
      I’m a bit worried about Steve. I wonder if his medical event left some permanent damage to his cognitive functions.
      
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      May 30, 2021 1:39pm
      - Benedict Yu
        
        Yeah there you go again. Insult rather than respectful debate.
        
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        May 30, 2021 5:05pm
  - surfing
    
    Wow, you should exit the basement on occasion.
    
    You way overthink this.
    
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    May 30, 2021 4:24pm
Stellaboxer

Unfortunately it appears that the risks may outway the illnesses danger to all but the most frail and elderly. Quite a hard sell.
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May 30, 2021 8:30am
- krazykiwi
  
  It’s only a hard sell if one gives people the data and lets them manage their personal risk. It’s a much easier sell if one bristles with authoritarian righteousness and insists that we, the subservient little people, do what we are told. Because the state knows best.
  
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  May 30, 2021 8:46am
  - kevn
    
    @kk… The Pfizer clinical trials don’t finish until 2023.
    
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    May 30, 2021 9:44am
- Benedict Yu
  
  No. The benefits outweigh the risks by thousands of orders of magnitude.
  
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  May 30, 2021 8:47am
  - TWEEDSE
    
    Benedict, benefits and risks are different depending on age and state of health. People should be informed of all the benefits and risks, apply it to their own situation and then to make up their own mind.
    
    Life is an endless process of assessing benefits and risks.
    
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    May 30, 2021 9:11am
    - Benedict Yu
      
      “Life is an endless process of assessing benefits and risks”
      
      Yes very much agree. Which is why I will have the vaccine.
      
      Humans, well at least modern humans are not good at assessing risks. I did some work on this about 10 years ago. Just to give an example. Many Samoan parents I interviewed were anxious about their children’s safety. I recall one father who said he was worried about his children being abducted. In the same interview I found out that he took them fishing in a small boat without life jackets.
      
      I agree that nobody should be coerced to have the covid vaccine. But I expect that over the next two years 85 percent of us will have had the vaccine. And 98 percent of people over 75.
      
      COVID will not be “eliminated” as our PM foolishly claimed. But it will rarely cause serious illness and death which is what matters.
      
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      May 30, 2021 10:28am
      - Don Beckett
        
        I’m 79 & I’m not going to have it. I’m reasonably fit & healthy. I’ve asked my doctor to ensure that Ivermectin is available – that’ll do me.
        I can’t see the point of mass vaccinations for a bad ‘flu that 99.7% of people who get it survive without vaccine.
        
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        May 30, 2021 5:18pm
      - kevn
        
        @Bened… Assessing risks, indeed.
        I have friends who MUST have the jab but are happy to drive with one having early dementia and the other having rare random blackouts.
        
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        May 30, 2021 5:44pm
  - info@cruzpro.com
    
    I sincerely hope that you are right. But how can you be so sure when the long term effects are unknown?
    
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    May 30, 2021 9:14am
    - Benedict Yu
      
      I am not “sure” about anything except absolutes like the laws of thermodynamics. Everything else is judgment based on evidence
      
      No medicine is “safe”. Because ‘safe’ is absolute adjective. A small number of people die from allergic reactions to Paracetamol. Many others have renal failure.
      
      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6473647/
      
      But these adverse events do not prevent us from making Paracetamol available at every dairy, gas station and supermarket in New Zealand.
      
      So no I will never be sure that the covid vaccine is ‘safe’. But I am going to be down the road like a shot when my turn comes.
      
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      May 30, 2021 10:48am
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      Death is not a long term effect
      
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      May 30, 2021 11:40am
      - Odakyu-sen
        
        Death a long-term effect of life.
        
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        May 30, 2021 12:45pm
    - Fidel Cashflow
      
      We can’t be sure at this stage, no matter how much Benedict and others hammer the hyperbole that we can.
      
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      May 30, 2021 12:21pm
    - TWEEDSE
      
      Info, that was kind of my point. The long term effects will not be known for years so that has to be part of your risk assessment. It is certainly part of my risk assessment.
      
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      May 30, 2021 12:28pm
  - krazykiwi
    
    There is no such thing as ‘the benefits’ or ‘the risks’ unless you normalise over an entire population. But you’ll notice that a ‘normalised person’ does not take the injection, an individual does. And the benefit/risk ratio is different for every individual.
    
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    May 30, 2021 9:15am
    - mikenmildagain
      
      Well, he is obviously considering it from a population level, the only level at which the question counts. Some individuals obviously should not personally take the vaccine, although they will still benefit from others’ willingness to do so.
      
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      May 30, 2021 9:52am
  - KevO'Brien
    
    The risk to freedom is greater.
    
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    May 30, 2021 9:23am
  - Stellaboxer
    
    You noticed that I wrote “appears” and “may”. Maybe not.
    
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    May 30, 2021 9:30am
  - TWEEDSE
    
    Benedict, it is hard to evaluate the benefits and risks when the risks to vaccinated and non vaccinated people are not being reported equally.
    
    In May 21, CDC change the criteria for defining break through cases in favour of reducing the figures for people who have been vaccinated. This was not done for non vaccinated. So it skews the figures.
    
    Here is a quote from CDC website and the link.
    
    ” As of May 1, 2021, CDC transitioned from monitoring all reported vaccine breakthrough cases to focus on identifying and investigating only hospitalized or fatal cases due to any cause. This shift will help maximize the quality of the data collected on cases of greatest clinical and public health importance.”
    https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/health-departments/breakthrough-cases.html
    
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    May 30, 2021 9:42am
    - Northshoredoc
      
      https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)00947-8/fulltext
      
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      May 30, 2021 1:16pm
  - Lance
    
    As an engineer I do need to point out that orders of magnitude are logarithmic.
    1 order is x10, 2 orders are 100, 3 is 1,000 etc.
    So thousands of orders of magnitude would be an extremely larger number.
    
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    May 30, 2021 11:55am
  - alwyn
    
    I think you mean that the benefits outweigh the risks by a factor of thousands, not thousands of orders of magnitude.
    An order of magnitude is normally taken as being a multiplier of 10. Two orders is 100, three a thousand and so on. Thousands of orders is an almost unimaginable figure. Even multiplying by a googol is only 100 orders of magnitude and it is vastly greater than the number of basic particles in the Universe.
    
    Thus ends today’s pedantry.
    
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    May 30, 2021 12:20pm
    - alwyn
      
      @Lance 11.55 am
      Snap!
      The disadvantages of moderation. When you see something that went in ahead of you but you didn’t know that it was there because of it was still in moderation.
      What makes it worse is when you see that someone has responded ahead of you and has done it so much more succinctly.
      
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      May 30, 2021 2:34pm
  - Ed Snack
    
    Benedict, no they don’t, unless you badly overestimate the death rate from Covid. Just BTW, what do you think the overall death rate is for Covid-19, and what that rate is for those under, say 30 or so ?
    
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    May 30, 2021 7:30pm
- Northshoredoc
  
  Another utterly daft assertion the risks associated with this vaccine and [are] vanishingly small compared to the personal and economic risks of not vaccinating when the borders reopen.
  
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  May 30, 2021 11:04am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Yeah well, I am not old and frail. My work is very physical
  
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  May 30, 2021 1:37pm
mikenmildagain

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
My comment yesterday celebrating the International Day of United Nations Peacekeepers generated uniformly negative comments.
Although I realise ignorance is a feature of Kiwiblog comments, I was somewhat surprised, in particular by the assertion that I would not be able to list successful UN peacekeeping missions.
The UN has established peacekeeping missions almost from its beginning. Its first mission, the UN Truce Supervisory Organisation was deployed to the Middle East during the 1948 Arab-Israeli war, and has continued to this day to monitor peace agreements in the region.
Since then, UN peacekeeping missions have been deployed to India and Pakistan in 1949, Egypt after the 1957 invasion by Britain, France and Israel, Cyprus, Yemen, Iran and Iraq after the 1980-88 war, Afghanistan and Pakistan after the Soviet withdrawal, Georgia, Tajikistan, Angola, Mozambique, Cambodia, Central America, Iraq and Kuwait, Ethiopia and Eritrea, Rwanda, Yugoslavia, Somalia, Liberia, Haiti, Sudan, Sierra Leone, Congo, Ivory Coast, Namibia, Western Sahara, and East Timor.
Not all missions have been successful, which might have been expected given the extreme circumstances driving many armed conflicts. A 2005 study by the Rand Corporation estimated a success rate of about two thirds. A general decline in armed conflict since the end of the Cold War has been at least partially attributed to international activism, including UN peacekeeping.
The comments yesterday pointed to the failures only: the inability to prevent massacres in Yugoslavia and Rwanda, and cases of sexual abuse by peacekeepers.
Don’t let the relentless negativity of Kiwiblog comments threads convince you that everything is bad in the world. The UN and its institutions are are a force for good. Despite all manner of flaws, they do not deserve such facile and sweeping condemnation.
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May 30, 2021 8:31am
- Tony Stuart
  
  Given that you are one of Kiwiblog’s more “relentless” commenters, often expressing considerable “negativity” towards the opinions of others, do you own a mirror?
  
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  May 30, 2021 8:41am
  - Tom Hunter
    
    “People can say some quite nasty things. It’s very sad.”
    
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    May 30, 2021 4:16pm
- kevn
  
  @mmm… Reads like a ‘cut and paste’ effort.
  
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  May 30, 2021 8:45am
  - Fidel Cashflow
    
    Anything more sophisticated than a sniping sentence based on ponderously orthodox positions is typically beyond the capacity of this guy, so I concur with that assessment. The amount of time he must have wasted over the years on KB, believing that he is being a cunning cat among the pigeons, must be very significant indeed.
    
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    May 30, 2021 12:39pm
- Benedict Yu
  
  “Although I realise ignorance is a feature of Kiwiblog comments…”
  
  I actually would have read what you had posted until I came to that.
  
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  May 30, 2021 8:50am
  - Cassandra
    
    Insulting his/her potential readers is 1 pretty silly and 2 par for the course from Milky. Hence the “hidden” classification. Makes one wonder ………….
    
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    May 30, 2021 11:17am
- krazykiwi
  
  The UN is a club of despots and dictators. They elect countries that behead citizens to human rights councils. They elect countries that subjugate women to lead women’s rights bodies. They aspire to sideline national sovereignty in favour of an unelected global government. The UN is rotten to the core. Only the despicable or naive continue to support this fundamentally corrupt entity.
  
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  May 30, 2021 8:56am
  - mikenmildagain
    
    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
    As I noted above, you are focused on the faults rather than the achievements. The UN is a remarkable creation by countries determined not to relive the horrors of WWI and WWII.
    Perhaps the UN’s critics imagine that all the benefits of international cooperation simply appeared by magic.
    
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    May 30, 2021 9:17am
    - RW Capitalist
      
      Now the horrors of
      Pol pot
      Chinese famine
      North Korea
      numerous wars started and inflamed by member nations
      eg lesser known ones like
      Angola
      
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      May 30, 2021 10:29am
      - mikenmildagain
        
        How were any of those wars started by the UN, or made worse by UN peacekeeping?
        You really do not know much about anything.
        
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        May 30, 2021 1:16pm
    - Biscuit
      
      You joketh, right, mike?
      
      The UN is a ginormous waste of time and money.
      
      And what co-operation do you speak of?
      
      The Security Council is at the whim of the countries with vetos. Bloody FRANCE have a veto. And so too does the equally-unimportant-these-days United Kingdom.
      
      Put up any resolution – say, against Israel vs Palestine interests, China’s oppression of its Muslims, or the Belarus airplane travesty and what will happen? Respectively, the United States, China and Russia will shut down any meaningful discussion … and any resolution passed against these Big Three’s self-interest will be either so watered down as to be useless or – think the US and the War with Iraq – promptly ignored.
      
      ‘Countries determined not to relive’ past wars?
      
      Gimme strength.
      
      The only thing preventing war between the countries with vetos is that they know they all have nuclear weapons for retaliatory action.
      
      Countless other wars since 1945 between non-nuclear states put the lie to your claim.
      
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      May 30, 2021 11:10am
    - rouppe
      
      Going in to a conflict area after the conflict has finished isn’t that remarkable.
      
      Which conflicts have they stopped? I can’t think of one. They haven’t even been able to resolve the Israel/ Palestine conflict. What did they do when France committed an act of war on NZ soil? Nothing. The Syria conflict? Invisible. Uighur Muslims? Hand wringing would be an over statement. Myanmar? Yemen? The human trafficking that is the migrant trade in Europe?
      
      We’re getting close to Marama Davidson levels of ineffectiveness.
      
      I just decided to read a bit about David Shearer since he’s supposed to be a success story. He’s been overseeing refugee camps for years. Has he been resolving the conflicts so people don’t need those camps? Doesn’t sound like it. There was a big story about how he had built a road between two districts. Great. That sounded like a success. I wonder how many millions (billions? ) the un spent on everything for that…
      
      I just don’t see real global benefits from un activities. Just announcements. Declarations. Nothing concrete
      
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      May 30, 2021 12:13pm
      - Nickc2
        
        The only credit I can give the UN is keeping Fiji afloat with money paid to its troops on UN Peace Keeping Duties in the Middle East. Without that income, Fiji would be a bigger basket case than it currently is.
        Unfortunately, Fiji has succumbed to the ever-present Chinese financial assistance as has many other Pacific Island Nations.
        Will Lil-Olde-NZ be next? IMO, it’s certainly headed that way with Grant Robertson firmly clutching the steering wheel and both feet holding the accelerator to the metal while Cindy plans a wedding and Mahuta hums songs about dragons and taniwha.
        
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        May 30, 2021 1:28pm
    - JackRabbit
      
      “As I noted above, you are focused on the faults rather than the achievements.”
      
      Should Hitler be worshiped for the peoples’ VW factory or decried for the extermination of Jews?
      
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      May 30, 2021 1:20pm
      - mikenmildagain
        
        I should think worshipful comments on Hitler are rare, but I trust you to know where to find them.
        
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        May 30, 2021 2:40pm
      - JackRabbit
        
        @mikenmildagain
        No doubt you were one of the downtickers, if not all three, so you clearly think goodness excuses badness. It does not.
        
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        May 30, 2021 5:05pm
      - Ed Snack
        
        Mikey, if you want to find some, I would suggest that Palestine is a fairly fertile field to investigate. Hitler is quite a Folk hero to some.
        
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        May 30, 2021 7:34pm
    - Loddenthinks
      
      “The UN is a remarkable creation by countries determined not to relive the horrors of WWI and WWII.”
      
      And yet, this organisation, founded in October 1945 after the horrors of WWII including the extermination of more than 6 m Jews, has relentlessly attacked Israel for standing up for itself in the face of aggression from pretty much every other nation in the Middle East.
      
      Yeah, some outfit that UN.
      
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      May 30, 2021 3:28pm
      - mikenmildagain
        
        The UN has supported peacemaking efforts in Israel and its neighbours since 1948. Your comments are an insult to the UN peacekeepers who have been killed in the area in the 70 years since.
        
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        May 30, 2021 3:46pm
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    That is how they keep the peace //
    
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    May 30, 2021 10:05am
- cmm
  
  “Not all missions have been successful”
  
  No shit.
  
  “A 2005 study by the Rand Corporation estimated a success rate of about two thirds.”
  That was in 2005. I wonder how they’d rate it in 2021?
  
  I’ve read quite a few books by soldiers who have been on UN missions. Almost all those are loaded with frustration about the rules of engagement being so tight that they can’t achieve anything useful.
  
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  May 30, 2021 9:07am
  - mikenmildagain
    
    There have actually been very few new UN missions since 2005, and none of a large scale.
    I’d be interested in citations from your ‘quite a few books’ that show these soldiers felt that their presence was a complete failure, or made things worse.
    
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    May 30, 2021 9:38am
    - rouppe
      
      We’d also be interested in your citations for success stories
      
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      May 30, 2021 2:40pm
      - mikenmildagain
        
        Success stories?
        Cambodia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Transitional_Authority_in_Cambodia
        Namibia
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Transition_Assistance_Group
        East Timor
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Transitional_Administration_in_East_Timor
        
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        May 30, 2021 3:15pm
      - cmm
        
        Namibia: Not really a war-torn conflict zone at the time. The major peace making and peace keeping was already in place and UN ended up only as observers with very little actual engagement.
        
        The Rwandan genocide was a complete cluster from the UN perspective. They pretty much had their hands tied behind their backs operationally because they were mainly limited to observer/investigation status.
        15 UN peace keepers were grabbed and executed in one hit.
        
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        May 30, 2021 5:28pm
      - rouppe
        
        @Mike:
        
        Did you read those? Cambodia:
        
        Despite UNTAC’s boasting of its effectiveness and being feted by the international community as a success, UNTAC failed to disarm the Khmer Rouge, while effectively disarming the SOC’s local militias.[8] This bias allowed the Khmer Rouge to make territorial gains and gave rise to political violence.[9] The State of Cambodia’s military leaders were furious, claiming that UNTAC was extremely exacting with the disarmament of the CPAF, but too lenient and ineffective when it came to disarm the Khmer Rouge.
        
        and
        
        the Khmer Rouge or Party of Democratic Kampuchea (PDK), whose forces were never actually disarmed or demobilised, barred some people from participating.
        
        And it cost $1.6 BILLION mostly in salaries for expatriates.
        
        Namibia: It almost appears from reading that, that the UN started armed conflict in Namibia in 1966. Nice one. Then followed some 20 years of pissing around. Yep, real success story.
        
        East Timor: The UN got on the ground after “decades long East Timorese crisis”. Decades long. What were they doing to prevent the “scourge of war” during those decades? Indonesia was a member state at the time…
        
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        May 30, 2021 8:10pm
- pdm
  
  I just gave it the obligatory downtick.
  
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  May 30, 2021 9:19am
- rockape
  
  Where was the UN in 1974 when he Turks invaded Cyprus. Oh yes they were their till the conflict started then vanished and I was dragged from the German plains to go and stop the conflict. Then again didn’t see the UN when the Guatemalans were anting to invade Belize , Oh yes I had to turn up for that. Falklands, never heard of the UN a stopping that invasion. I ended up leaving Germany once again for a 5 month holiday again. Th UN do little other than tun up where there is no conflict and pose. A total waste of money.
  
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  May 30, 2021 9:56am
  - mikenmildagain
    
    Amazingly enough, the UN can send peacekeepers only where there is:
    1. Agreement at the UN to intervene
    2. Agreement from the parties to the conflict
    With your military experience I should have thought that was quite obvious.
    
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    May 30, 2021 11:42am
    - KevO'Brien
      
      The UN official who came to Samoa to help get their census published was areal piker: he understated his golf handicap and eventually left after two years, accomplishing nothing.
      I published our demographic data within a few months of enrolling members in the Samoa National Provident Fund.
      
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      May 30, 2021 5:14pm
    - RoboRob
      
      Thats the point you are missing Mike. The UN is toothless becuase #s 1 and 2 above so seldom occur. The Veto power blocks any real action.
      
      The UN has become a money pit and retirement home for politicians (Helen Clark et al)
      
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      May 31, 2021 3:06pm
- RW Capitalist
  
  Not all missions have been successful, which might have been expected given the extreme circumstances driving many armed conflicts. A 2005 study by the Rand Corporation estimated a success rate of about two thirds.
  Love to see their definition of success.
  I contend, looking at these places now, they are a litany of failures.
  UN …INTERFERENCE made things worse or replaced one problem with a worse one.
  Taliban
  Alqaeda
  ISIS
  for the rest
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_designated_terrorist_groups
  I remember the days when you could count the number on the finger of one hand.
  Including
  The red brigade
  IRA
  Baader Meinhoff
  and few others
  
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  May 30, 2021 10:21am
  - mikenmildagain
    
    You are merely displaying your ignorance yet again, if you think the UN is somehow responsible for the activities of terrorist groups.
    
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    May 30, 2021 1:19pm
    - rouppe
      
      You are mis-representing the point of the un.
      
      It is supposed to be a global vote to help prevent conflict. The un charter preamble states:
      
      WE THE PEOPLES OF THE UNITED NATIONS DETERMINED
      to save succeeding generations from the scourge of war, which twice in our lifetime has brought untold sorrow to mankind, and
      
      to reaffirm faith in fundamental human rights, in the dignity and worth of the human person, in the equal rights of men and women and of nations large and small, and
      
      to establish conditions under which justice and respect for the obligations arising from treaties and other sources of international law can be maintained, and
      
      to promote social progress and better standards of life in larger freedom,
      
      AND FOR THESE ENDS
      to practice tolerance and live together in peace with one another as good neighbours, and
      
      to unite our strength to maintain international peace and security, and
      
      to ensure, by the acceptance of principles and the institution of methods, that armed force shall not be used, save in the common interest, and
      
      to employ international machinery for the promotion of the economic and social advancement of all peoples,
      
      HAVE RESOLVED TO COMBINE OUR EFFORTS TO ACCOMPLISH THESE AIMS.
      Accordingly, our respective Governments, through representatives assembled in the city of San Francisco, who have exhibited their full powers found to be in good and due form, have agreed to the present Charter of the United Nations and do hereby establish an international organization to be known as the United Nations.
      
      I struggle to see how the un has lived up to those goals, especially the ones I have highlighted in bold.
      
      How has China lived up to “practice tolerance” with its treatment of uighur Muslims, or Taiwan? How has Russia lived up to “armed force shall not be used” when invading Ukraine? Or many Middle Eastern countries lived up to equal rights for men and women.
      
      How have other member Nations sought to have those Nations live up to those goals?
      
      How has the un lived up to that charter?
      
      Poorly, in my opinion
      
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      May 30, 2021 2:54pm
      - mikenmildagain
        
        I should say that you missed the bit in the preamble about ‘the scourge of war, which twice in our lifetime has brought untold sorrow to mankind’, and failed to note that no remotely similar conflicts have appeared since.
        I would also note that you appear to think the UN has failed because it has not been completely successful.
        
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        May 30, 2021 3:10pm
      - rouppe
        
        Mate, the world has been full of war since that declaration. Not world wars, but then the preamble didn’t state “save succeeding generations from the scourge of world war”
        
        I don’t think the UN has even been mostly successful, and even partially successful is a stretch, since the only things the Security Council agrees on are relatively minor and inconsequential.
        
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        May 30, 2021 7:52pm
- JackRabbit
  
  Mike, your pattern precedes everything you post. As a result you may get downticks for things that you consider positive.
  
  You can’t post 199 negative posts and expect readers to treat one neutral or positive post with objectivity.
  
  I recommend you spend a week reading and studying the Aesop’s Fable, “The Boy Who Cried Wolf.”, over and over again.
  
  If we don’t hear from you for a week, and you come back to KB with a refreshingly positive attitude, that would be good. If not, then perhaps “The Boy Who Cried Wolf.”, is above your reading and comprehension age.
  
  When I was at school, schools reports not only measured your reading level, but also your comprehension level. You probably are too young to appreciate that. Now days they measure “hugs” and being “nice”.
  
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  May 30, 2021 11:54am
  - JackRabbit
    
    Downticks confirm stunted comprehension levels.
    
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    May 30, 2021 1:22pm
  - mikenmildagain
    
    It should be obvious, even to you, that I don’t care about downticks. It should also be blindingly obvious that the majority of posts, and the vast majority of comments, on Kiwiblog are very far from being ‘positive’. the comments in particular are an almost uninterrupted stream of complaints about the state of the country and the world.
    
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    May 30, 2021 1:22pm
    - JackRabbit
      
      “…the comments in particular are an almost uninterrupted stream of complaints about the state of the country and the world.”
      
      Awareness of negatives, i.e. an awareness of the darker side of humanity; and the need to keep eternal vigilance (“The price of freedom is eternal vigilance”), is just as important as positive phenomena.
      
      From my observation Kiwiblog, or for that matter any blog, invites itself for discussion on topics of the day, especially things that are of concern. Things that are of concern are usually negative things, which is why people blog and post about them.
      
      Positive things get shared or noted in other ways. If someone wins $28 million on Powerball, you won’t find them blogging about it. But you will find them investing, upgrading their car(s), setting up trust funds for their children, helping children into properties, or any of dozens of positive things.
      You also won’t find them announcing their win on Facebook, Twatter, or any other social media.
      
      There are lots of positive things in peoples lives that they share with friends and family, but not relative strangers on a blog. Good relationships, business ventures, successful well adjusted children, and so. Many of us have conversations, meals, celebrations, and meetings regarding the same. Generally people blog out of concern.
      
      If KB appears negative to you, then perhaps it is time you took a holiday from it, and started creating success and positive outcomes in the real world.
      
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      May 30, 2021 5:20pm
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Ouch
    
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    May 30, 2021 1:40pm
fernglas

From the Telegraph:
“Dr Omar Khorshid, the president of the Australian Medical Association (AMA), said: “At some point, it will not be possible to justify the maintenance of border closures given their impact on lives and livelihoods.”
Finally someone with expertise has looked beyond trying to prove that they can eliminate Covid to realise that there is a whole world out there that needs to continue if we want to survive.
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May 30, 2021 8:32am
- Nickc2
  
  Hang about, let’s not be fooled by the word Medical in relation to the AMA. The AMA is a left wing radical organisation of Doctors masquerading as politicians. The first of these to achieve notoriety was one Dr. Kerryn Phelps (President of the AMA) who went on to become a so-called Independent Federal Govt Polly and subsequently Deputy Lord Mayor of Sydney.
  Whilst being a Federal Polly, she was anything but independent. She was a pain in the arse during Aust’s influx of boat people masquerading as refugees. I’m not sure but it wouldn’t surprise me if she hasn’t updated her personal pronoun these days.
  
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  May 30, 2021 9:21am
  - fernglas
    
    I don’t care about his politics if he talks sense. Something sadly lacking in politicians of all stripes.
    
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    May 30, 2021 5:50pm
cmm

Canterbury is flooded.
There is Covid19. Bubbles are under threat.
There might even be global warming.

But on the plus side, KB is delightfully stephie free for the next few days.
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May 30, 2021 8:35am
- Ruahine
  
  An early start to the Skiing season this year me thinks. Am heading Sth in a week so will check it all out. Mt Hutt especially should be good during the week. Nature is such a joy. No skiing for T-Rexs or Veloceraptors but there is for us.
  
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  May 30, 2021 8:59am
  - Biscuit
    
    How many downticks will I acquire if I – very tongue-in-cheekedly, like – observe in Miss Frowny Face fashion that
    ‘STEPHIE IS US, TOO!’
    
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    May 30, 2021 11:13am
- Inandout
  
  cmm, ScoMo is flying into Queenstown to meet with our leader so that is nice. Rude the bug man is flying from Christchurch to Kerikeri this morning, so that is also nice.
  
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  May 30, 2021 9:35am
surfing

Ha, as I said, the accountants are to blame …

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/125180968/ministry-of-health-abandoned-cybersecurity-system-for-waikato-and-other-dhbs-due-to-budget-issues

Accountants are a hacker’s accomplice.
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May 30, 2021 9:12am
- kowtow
  
  As are cryptocurrencies.
  
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  May 30, 2021 11:49am
- sooty
  
  Doesn’t help having little andy as boss of the Health dept and the Spies aswell at the sametime! Talk about egg on face!
  
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  May 30, 2021 11:56am
- KevO'Brien
  
  Duh? Accountants (bean counters) determine operational practices? Do they do operations too?
  
  Would an accountant do seasonal client accounting without current backups?
  Where did they get the advice from: MBIE?
  
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  May 30, 2021 12:01pm
Than

Sue Kedgeley blames men for climate change.

Right. Because women didn’t enjoy all the same benefits of industrial society. They didn’t live in the same heated homes, travel in the same motor vehicles, use the same modern appliances, and buy goods produced by the same factories.

Yet somehow they are completely blameless on climate change, and it’s all men’s fault. Give me a fricken break.
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May 30, 2021 9:18am
- Inandout
  
  Than, as a Consumer subscriber I am sick and tired of being lectured about climate change. I thought this stuff went out the window when the previous boss left. Sue is a sitting Board member so presumably there for life.
  
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  May 30, 2021 10:29am
- kowtow
  
  “Her home feels like a metaphor for the full life the feminist, politician and activist has lived so far. It’s jammed, bursting with furniture, artworks – many by her twin sister Helen – and collectables.”
  
  Very bourgeois .
  
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  May 30, 2021 10:33am
- Benedict Yu
  
  Sue Kedgley is a piece of work. She lives in a multi million dollar house in Oriental Bay (at least she did 8 years ago. I was there).
  
  The elites of the Greens gather in such houses and compare their property capital gains while drinking expensive wine. I have witnessed this first hand and it reinforced my revulsion for the Green Party.
  
  I recall just after I arrived in New Zealand, Sue hysterically opposing the Transmission Gully motorway because it would be so steep that trucks would never be able to use it.
  
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  May 30, 2021 10:36am
  - Paulus
    
    Likewise I understand she was expensively educated at a top Girls Private School.
    
    14 2
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    May 30, 2021 1:21pm
    - MCos
      
      She went to Marsden College.
      So what?
      
      2 3
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      May 30, 2021 5:26pm
    - lifesgood
      
      Yeah they are hypocrites extraordinaire as are two of my family members working in professional jobs, living a good middle class life, and crowing about how clever they were for riding across the harbour bridge and closing two lanes down to traffic. Bloody makes my blood boil
      
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      May 30, 2021 5:33pm
- Ruahine
  
  Knowing anything about Ms Kedgeley as I do it is what you expect she would come out with. Superficiality comes to mind. But maybe there is a chance for a taxpayer ‘research’ fund.
  
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  May 30, 2021 1:10pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Sue Kedgley, say no more.
  https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA0110/S00444/dhmo-email-to-sue-kedgleys-office-response.htm
  
  8 3
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  May 30, 2021 1:44pm
  - cha
    
    Kedgley’s staffer made the call.
    National MP Jackie Dean actually signed a letter supporting a dihydrogen monoxide ban.
    
    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/38005/National-MP-falls-victim-to-water-hoax
    
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    May 30, 2021 1:55pm
cmm

If people need any more proof that the judicial system is biassed then here it is.

There are more Rotary Club and Lions Club members in NZ than there are members of all the other cultural organisations known as gangs.

So why are over 30% of our prisoners gang members and only a handful, if any are Rotarians and Lions?

Clearly far too many Rotarians and Lions getting a free pass.

Of course I write in jest. No matter how often Gilbert and Workman tell us, gangs are not cultural organisations with a few bad apples that the cops should focus on. Nope, they are criminal from top to bottom.

If Gilbert really believes otherwise then please show me:
a) Just one gang president/senior member that has never been arrested/imprisoned for a crime.
b) Just one Rotary/Lion president that has.
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May 30, 2021 9:24am
- mikenmildagain
  
  More citations required to show those gentlemen asserted that gangs are ‘cultural organisations with a few bad apples’. Readers will remember Jarrod Gilbert was attacked by bloggers on behalf of the government when he had the temerity to question their invented figures about gangs number and crime.
  
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  May 30, 2021 9:48am
- Brian McDonald
  
  Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
  No records are kept of that so you’re not making any point ccm, again.
  
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  May 30, 2021 10:02am
  - Tarquin North
    
    Really Brian? Is that the best you can come up with to defend your friends from the big house?
    
    17 1
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    May 30, 2021 10:28am
    - igm
      
      Not too many of them were his friends. He was not popular.
      
      7 2
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      May 30, 2021 2:20pm
  - Cassandra
    
    It’s a valid point, Brian. While the records are incomplete there are still records. Try Google. Tell you what, you identify the Rotarian crims and I’ll equal you for NZ gangs. First one to give up has to buy the chocolate fish.
    
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    May 30, 2021 11:21am
  - cmm
    
    Records of what?
    
    We might not have records showing Rotarian membership of prisoners, but we do know that some prisons (especially the worst) have 60% or higher gang affiliations amongst their “customers” and the numbers are increasing.
    
    If the Rotarians were a criminal organisation I think it would be reasonably obvious by now.
    
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    May 30, 2021 11:27am
    - mikenmildagain
      
      Given the demonstrated lies in previous statistics about gang membership, I’d be interested in seeing your source for that 60% figure.
      
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      May 30, 2021 1:35pm
- Matt Long
  
  I think a quota system is needed to ensure racial biases are removed, cause as everyone knows gangs are a race. How about we require the police to arrest 3 Rotarians for every gangster, then we will be a much more progressive society.
  
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  May 30, 2021 11:15am
- Jimbo666
  
  I’m sure more than a few white collar criminals have been members of Lions or Rotary in their day.
  
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  May 30, 2021 11:54am
Inandout

Juan Williams has left ‘The Five’ on Fox and watching him twist and turn while attempting to explain Biden’s mistakes was sometimes excruciating. As the US becomes more violent and uncontrollable in many areas he must have run out of excuses as to how this has happened; namely defunding and dumping on police officers. The latest expose on how the media blocked any talk of Chinese involvement in the C19 until they were forced to open up must have been the last straw for Juan.
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May 30, 2021 9:32am
- Graeme Hall
  
  Pity, Juan always seemed a sensible & calm guy. He was outnumbered by Republicans on the panel & often had to try to justify some absurd Democrat policies. Amusingly he said it didn’t bother him to be in the minority because at home his wife & kids all vote Republican.
  
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  May 30, 2021 1:51pm
- kowtow
  
  Talking of violence , the Cops Unions there aren’t too amused that the family of career druggie and robber Fentanyl Floyd were hosted at the WH , while no families of any cops murdered in the line of duty have been there.
  
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  May 30, 2021 1:58pm
JibberJabber

as fear recedes rationality returns.
https://boriquagato.substack.com/p/springtime-for-rationality

why is is suddenly becoming OK to doubt lockdowns and masks and wonder about wuhan labs?

why are politicians pivoting, bureaucrats starting to try to make sense, and people in lockdown occupied territory suddenly breaking free as if waking up from a bad fugue state?

why are ideas shouted down as conspiracy theory and tinfoil hatted lunacy suddenly mainstream and why are the narratives that were so mainstream suddenly revealed to be so lacking in foundation?

there is a reason that fear has always been the tool of the demagogue. it’s because it works, and it works not just because of those it renders incapable of rational thought, but because it weaponizes such people into a braying mob of cancel culture that, in turn, silences the rest.
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May 30, 2021 9:38am
Maggie Pie

OMG 😀 😀 😀

SKY’s Rita Panahi describes it as….. ‘BRUTAL’
My partner asks, “What is it with fat chicks and their orange hair?”

https://twitter.com/RitaPanahi/status/1398558790627205121
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May 30, 2021 9:42am
- mikenmildagain
  
  Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
  Are you thinking of going back to your natural colour as a result of his comment?
  
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  May 30, 2021 9:49am
  - Maggie Pie
    
    😀
    
    15 3
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    May 30, 2021 10:22am
- lifesgood
  
  Trying to divert attention from their blubbery bodies, I guess.
  
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  May 30, 2021 5:34pm
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Stay out of the doghouse:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Twivg7GkYts
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May 30, 2021 9:49am
RW Capitalist

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/125180968/ministry-of-health-abandoned-cybersecurity-system-for-waikato-and-other-dhbs-due-to-budget-issues
WOW
I’m not sure which is most amazing
1. The story
2. the fact that stuff ran it.
Now for some follow through

Elective surgery waiting lists
Emergency waiting times
Cancer treatment
Skeleton staff levels on weekends
Running out of Vaccines, especially…are there enough vaccines in stock to give EVERYONE who has had only one shot…their second shot (I suspect not)
and it is it all due to a lack of money?
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May 30, 2021 10:05am
- DeepBlue
  
  I some Wellington Govn Ministries not only is there a wage freeze, but also a hiring freeze.
  
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  May 30, 2021 2:12pm
Tasman Terror

If you were going to appoint a complete fuckwit as Minister over cyber security issues who is responsible for implementing systems to prevent the the District Health Boards’
computers being corrupted by hackers who would you appoint?

Answer: David Clark.

Why: Because his job before entering Parliament was running a student hostel.

This makes sense.

What’s the wedding date?
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May 30, 2021 10:06am
Maggy Wassilieff

What is being unleashed in Parliament….
or who lifted the lid of Pandora’s box?

https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/the-house/audio/2018797080/policing-political-race-speech-with-a-posse
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May 30, 2021 10:16am
- KevO'Brien
  
  There’s none so racist as those who take offence.
  Any racist statement is contrary to the good order of Parliament. Upholding the divisive isn’t.
  
  Next it will be pronouns. For its Heinz varieties its a pain in the rear. They mess up English and if we had several to deal with in as short time it could be horribly confusing. I don’t find plural usage substituted for singular persons sensible.
  
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  May 30, 2021 12:11pm
Maggie Pie

Is this translation correct? Anyone else hoping it’s not?

WATCH:
A ‘supervirus’ that could infect humans. But the Chinese assure us it’s secured in a lab….

https://twitter.com/wakeupfromcovid/status/1396615537577406464
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May 30, 2021 10:19am
- cmm
  
  If there is a man made super virus then it is not SARS-Cov-19.
  
  CV19 is pathetic when compared to pandemics during the last century.
  
  In the Spanish Flu, 9000 people died out of a population of 1 million. That would be 45,000 scaled to today’s population. And those were mostly young people (20s and 30s) so the impact was huge.
  
  So I find it hard to believe that the Sars-Cov-2 virus is either a “supervirus” or man made.
  
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  May 30, 2021 11:23am
  - KevO'Brien
    
    People with the right knowhow and gear have found that the genetic sequences of the COVID19 virus had been spliced together. Gates provided the tools with his gene splicing systems.
    
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    May 30, 2021 12:14pm
    - cha
      
      Gates provided the tools with his gene splicing systems.
      
      Any evidence Gates provided the tools with his gene splicing systems or are you pulling shit out of your clacker?
      
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      May 30, 2021 12:50pm
      - mikenmildagain
        
        I think we all know that answer to that one…
        
        4 8
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        May 30, 2021 1:32pm
      - RichardX
        
        As with KOB’s claims regarding Fauci being corrupt because he “gets royalties from patents on the “vaccines” he mandates.”, it appears that KOB is sufficiently gullible to accept any conspiracy that fits his preconceptions.
        
        There may be some grain of truth at a very base level but KOB’s understanding is flawed. Fauci does receive some royalties for patents held but these are capped and are not directly related to Covid. I assume the distortion is not deliberate but merely indicative of accepting what he reads on the internet as fact.
        
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        May 30, 2021 2:25pm
    - kowtow
      
      According to the Nicholas Wade article in the UK Daily Telegraph virologists have known about the furin cleavage site since 1992 .
      
      The furin cleavage site in the Wuflu virus is thought now to be very possibly the smoking gun.
      
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      May 30, 2021 1:53pm
    - cmm
      
      “People with the right knowhow and gear have found that the genetic sequences of the COVID19 virus had been spliced together”
      
      That is how viruses mutate – by spicing bits of their RNA.
      
      How are you going to tell the difference between a natural splice and a man made splice? Do they put a wee “Made In China” tag on it?
      
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      May 30, 2021 5:38pm
RW Capitalist

I heard that in Australia, someone is renting out stray cats to cure the mouse plague.
Reminded me of:
http://oqo.es/en/product/the-sultan-and-the-mice/
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May 30, 2021 10:24am
- JackRabbit
  
  The Pied Piper?
  
  4 1
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  May 30, 2021 1:27pm
- virtualmark
  
  In Chicago recently they intentionally released feral cats to combat their rat infestations.
  
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  May 30, 2021 2:08pm
Fletch

What we all knew already and were labelled cranks for. That Covid-19 was created in a lab by Chinese scientists and has nothing to do with transfer from animal to human.

An explosive new study claims that Chinese scientists created COVID-19 in a Wuhan lab, then tried to cover their tracks by reverse-engineering versions of the virus to make it look like it evolved naturally from bats.

The paper’s authors, British Professor Angus Dalgleish and Norwegian scientist Dr. Birger Sørensen, wrote that they have had ‘prima facie evidence of retro-engineering in China’ for a year – but were ignored by academics and major journals.

Dalgleish is a professor of oncology at St George’s University, London, and is best known for his breakthrough creating the first working ‘HIV vaccine’, to treat diagnosed patients and allow them to go off medication for months.

Sørensen, a virologist, is chair of pharmaceutical company, Immunor, which developed a coronavirus vaccine candidate called Biovacc-19. Dalgleish also has share options in the firm.

The shocking allegations in the study include accusations of ‘deliberate destruction, concealment or contamination of data’ at Chinese labs, and it notes the silencing and disappearance of scientists in the communist country who spoke out.

The journal article, exclusively obtained by DailyMail.com and slated for publication in the coming days, is set to make waves among the scientific community, as the majority of experts have until recently staunchly denied the origins of COVID-19 were anything other than a natural infection leaping from animals to humans.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9629563/Chinese-scientists-created-COVID-19-lab-tried-cover-tracks-new-study-claims.html
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May 30, 2021 10:25am
- doggone7
  
  What we all knew already? We don’t know how things happened. Reading a headline with someone’s opinion or conjecture is not evidence.
  
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  May 30, 2021 2:31pm
curry4me

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/05/president-trump-happens-people-find-states-gonna-flip-mean-go-3-5-years-someone-destroying-country/

President Trump on the 2020 Election Fraud.

Fairest most accurate election in history. Move along folks. Nothing to see here. Biden got 80 million votes. Most popular president ever. / sarc [21:34]
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May 30, 2021 10:39am
- mikenmildagain
  
  It must be difficult when one can’t trust any election result, poll or any other form of data that conflicts with one’s preconceptions of what reality should be.
  Political polls, for example, certainly have their limitations. But they have been carried our in such large numbers and for such long periods of time that they can be relied upon to provide answers to interesting questions. For example, it’s very hard to believe that Donald Trump was anything other than the most insistently unpopular president since the Second World War.
  
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  May 30, 2021 1:27pm
curry4me

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvGx309mlCU

Dems in for a Rude Awakening.

People moving to Florida, and other red states are not bringing Dem values with them. There are minimal lockdowns, and few ‘mostly peaceful riots’. What’s not to like? [10:42]
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May 30, 2021 10:42am
Maggie Pie

BREAKING MOMENTS AGO…who’s going to pay?

Explosive 22 page report by two world renown scientists, shows evidence that the Chinese created the Covid-19 virus in a Wuhan Lab…..and then tried to cover their tracks!

https://twitter.com/MaajidNawaz/status/1398765756377088003
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May 30, 2021 10:49am
artemisia

New visa rules coming up.

Work visas: Major change to migrant worker rules puts onus on employers …. Then-immigration minister Iain Lees-Galloway said the system was overly complex and did not incentivise businesses with labour shortages to recruit or train more New Zealanders, or to invest in technology to increase productivity.

Recruiting or training more locals hasn’t worked out that well so far. Investing in technology now – that will work for an increasing number of roles.

Just one example – New Zealand already exports smart apple packing technology to replace humans and improve quality at the same time. Assume it is increasing take up here as well as soon as it pays for itself. Sooner rather than later now as no paperwork, employee hassles, public holidays, sick leave etc etc etc.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/work-visas-major-change-to-migrant-worker-rules-puts-onus-on-employers/MFEM2COEUD7AX2Y3K6C3TGKEEA/
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May 30, 2021 11:11am
Maggy Wassilieff

The trouble with identifying faults in the work of some scientists:

Scientific image sleuth faces legal action for criticizing research papers

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01430-z
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May 30, 2021 11:20am
oldfella

Powerline’s Week In Pictures. Good for a laugh if you enjoy US politics. 🙂
https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2021/05/the-week-in-pictures-media-leak-edition.php
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May 30, 2021 11:41am
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Dan Bongino debunking liberal nonsense. Why do the left scream racism?
Btw, Trump was right!
https://rumble.com/vhr7pj-liberal-cries-racism-on-wuhan-lab-scandal-bongino-and-gutfeld-destroy-her.html?
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May 30, 2021 11:49am
Maggie Pie

TRENDING 😀

Laurel Hubbard mulls switching codes…..

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/300319156/transgender-athletes-will-be-able-to-play-rugby-but-nz-rugby-is-unsure-who-against
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May 30, 2021 11:59am
- sooty
  
  Yes, she will be able to play in the geriatric class!
  
  6 0
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  May 30, 2021 12:19pm
- Jack5
  
  A dangerous twist…
  
  Could be hazardous unless they undergo an orchidectomy, the big snip, before mixing it a scrum with some of those powerful, born-woman forwards.
  
  5 1
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  May 30, 2021 1:32pm
  - Maggie Pie
    
    As my partner just said… “wouldn’t want to be a second-rower”
    
    5 1
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    May 30, 2021 3:14pm
- mandk
  
  FYI, her proper designation is Laurel Hubbard (XY).
  
  6 1
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  May 30, 2021 1:47pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  The only thing that needs to be switched is the identifying as a female bit
  
  3 2
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  May 30, 2021 3:02pm
greybeard

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300320175/auckland-harbour-bridge-lanes-reopened-after-protesters-storm-police-barricade
Another example of effective policing in NZ these days.
Anarchy rules.
And those “cyclists” at the front of the pack looked like rent-a-mob heavies.
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May 30, 2021 12:51pm
- lifesgood
  
  The cops are bloody useless. How can a bunch of greenie activist cyclists “Break through police lines”? Where were the road spikes, pepper spray, hand cuffs etc? The cops should be ashamed of themselves. No wonder they are losing the support of the public. So I suppose that rather than keep the law against cycling on the harbour bridge the impotent cops will now just turn a blind eye.
  
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  May 30, 2021 1:07pm
  - Miritu
    
    Would be very different if it were an anti-lockdown protest
    
    6 0
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    May 30, 2021 6:32pm
- The Feed
  
  Who is Waka Kotahi?
  
  14 1
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  May 30, 2021 1:27pm
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    A horse.
    Or for the weirdos, a bicycle. Use it anywhere you like, there is no charge, it is free shit
    
    8 2
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    May 30, 2021 3:05pm
    - sooty
      
      Or a Minto Bar!
      
      3 1
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      May 30, 2021 5:39pm
- kowtow
  
  Why not ?
  
  Plenty of precedent.
  
  3 0
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  May 30, 2021 1:49pm
- ByGolly
  
  Water cannon.
  
  10 1
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  May 30, 2021 2:22pm
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    With dye
    
    8 1
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    May 30, 2021 3:05pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Breaching a barricade is trespass. Cyclists are freeloaders
  
  15 3
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  May 30, 2021 2:23pm
TWEEDSE

I see “Cycling protesters close two lanes of Auckland Harbour Bridge”. I have no problem with there being a separate cycling bridge across the harbour, as long as it user pays and the cyclists pay rather than taxing motorists even more.

Should be about $1,000 per crossing in each direction. Do the cyclists still want their own crossing now? No I thought not. They want other people to pay for their hobby.
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May 30, 2021 1:05pm
- herb1
  
  There’s a lot of lard arsed twats who eat so much they can’t see there shrivelled man hood , but they expect others pay for their expensive medical care.
  User pays isn’t quite as simple as you’d like to think.
  
  4 7
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  May 30, 2021 2:26pm
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Manhood? They don’t even know what that is
    
    7 3
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    May 30, 2021 3:06pm
    - sooty
      
      All cycles should require a registration plate, with yearly sticker and wof!
      
      7 1
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      May 30, 2021 5:28pm
      - MCos
        
        More taxes
        More levies
        
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        May 30, 2021 8:13pm
Jack5

Guled Mire, Somali refugee to New Zealand now studying at (or with) Cornell University in America gives, today’s Stuff daily mantra for Woke, White, self-scourging flagellants:

“We need to start to look at the facts and question why 50 per cent of those imprisoned are Maori. Why 1 in every 142 Maori are in prison. This isn’t random, or by chance. This is systemic, historical, structural racism.”

Systemic, historical, structural – yeah!

Stuff reported last year his Fulbright-scholarship course last year: “Masters of Public Administration at Cornell … specialising in human rights and social justice.”

If he goes into politics, will it be Labour or Green?

Mire was to start his course by online study, because of the pandemic. Perhaps he’s still studying online.
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May 30, 2021 1:27pm
- mikenmildagain
  
  Perhaps you believe it is a random chance that Maori figure so prominently in such statistics.
  
  3 22
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  May 30, 2021 2:43pm
  - Jack5
    
    Milky, so you believe proportionately more Maori are in jail because of “systemic, historical, structural racism.”
    
    Please give us details of how this racism is implemented. Are there different penalties based on race?
    
    14 2
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    May 30, 2021 3:19pm
    - Mike
      
      Nothing so overt is involved. It is the situation common to all peoples colonized or otherwise dispossessed.
      
      1 7
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      May 30, 2021 6:32pm
- MCos
  
  In Australia 1 in 64 First Nation are in prison.
  In Canada 1 in 280
  In US about the same
  About 1 in 25 African Americans are in prison
  
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  May 30, 2021 8:41pm
Maggie Pie

‘CREEPY JOE’ IS BACK! 🙁

While giving a speech to the troops and their families, he appears to give a shout-out to the little 8yo daughter of a veteran who was present…
“Man, I’ll tell you what, look at her. She looks like a 19 year old sitting there with her legs apart”

WATCH
https://twitter.com/SkyNewsAust/status/1398800371825319936
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May 30, 2021 1:44pm
- Inandout
  
  Maggie, scroll down and the Twitterati of course bring Trump into their ‘look over there’. Trump is sitting next to a young woman. Joe is losing it big time and the Hunter thing must be weighing heavily on his mind.
  
  14 4
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  May 30, 2021 2:31pm
  - Maggie Pie
    
    Know exactly what you mean I&O 😛
    Somebody who smokes Parmesan Cheese after mistaking it for Crack would weigh heavily on anyone’s mind.
    
    LOL!!
    
    11 2
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    May 30, 2021 3:08pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Oh lookie, 4 downtickers support a pedo – congrats you freaks
  
  12 6
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  May 30, 2021 3:07pm
kris

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/traffic-chaos-after-cycling-protesters-close-two-lanes-of-auckland-harbour-bridge/5MI32EX5XQPYQEIEICGBYWNPWU/

Hundreds breach police lines, and cycle on the motorway, which is illegal. Egged on by Green MPs and the like it seems.
Only one arrested (whats the bet they get at most a slap on the wrist with a wet bus ticket).

Another consequence of “policing by consent”?
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May 30, 2021 2:11pm
- sooty
  
  Maybe policing by ten guitars?
  
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  May 30, 2021 5:23pm
lilman

lol,Trump will be back.

Hes coming.
8 6
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May 30, 2021 2:26pm
- mikenmildagain
  
  Got a date for that?
  
  4 11
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  May 30, 2021 2:41pm
  - Batman
    
    Right after Hillary goes to Gitmo and Biden is arrested for unspecified crimes.
    
    8 9
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    May 30, 2021 3:02pm
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    2024, maybe sooner. Forget Batman – denial is a river in Afrika, no speeling mistake
    
    14 5
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    May 30, 2021 3:15pm
    - mikenmildagain
      
      Oh, I thought he might be referring to some of the crazier theories about overturning the 2020 election result.
      2024 would be marvellous. Hopefully with one of the idiot spawn on the ticket to Make America Great Again, Again!
      
      6 12
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      May 30, 2021 3:19pm
CommanderC

Excellent “Origin of COVID” article here

https://thebulletin.org/2021/05/the-origin-of-covid-did-people-or-nature-open-pandoras-box-at-wuhan/
6 1
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May 30, 2021 2:59pm
Greenheart

Boris Johnson and Carrie Symonds married yesterday in a private ceremony in Westminster Cathedral. Bride in a stunning white dress but no photos and no publicity. Contrast that with the blaze of publicity that will precede Cindy’s nuptials which will bore us over the next few months
20 4
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May 30, 2021 3:05pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Impossible for Jaspinda to have a ‘private ceremony’
  It don’t work like that for power crazy socialists
  
  18 4
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  May 30, 2021 3:17pm
- cha
  
  Would a serial adulterer want images of his third union splashed about?
  
  5 7
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  May 30, 2021 3:17pm
  - lifesgood
    
    Wonder how long this one lasts.
    
    3 3
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    May 30, 2021 4:23pm
- Maggie Pie
  
  I think it’s quite exciting!
  There was even a lot of speculation at tennis yesterday whether it will be a ‘White Wedding’?
  
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  May 30, 2021 3:21pm
  - artemisia
    
    The rule is (or at least was) that white signified a first marriage, nothing to do with what happened in the bedroom.
    
    4 1
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    May 30, 2021 5:36pm
  - greybeard
    
    Red.
    Jacinda’s colour is definitely Red.
    
    6 3
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    May 30, 2021 6:04pm
CommanderC

Also here:

https://yurideigin.medium.com/lab-made-cov2-genealogy-through-the-lens-of-gain-of-function-research-f96dd7413748
5 1
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May 30, 2021 3:19pm
Jack5

Time to move on?

Radio NZ today dug into the story of the German-born developer of the Mount Hutt skifield, a veteran of the Waffen SS, in which perhaps a million people served during World War 2.

The Willi Huber story has been told and re-told on TV and in southern newspapers over a few years. Huber died last August. The Mount Hutt skifield remains. The family remains, and the skifield has generated a warm feeling for Huber among many thousand Canterbury locals.

It brings to mind the story of Bert Trautmann, a German veteran who became a sports hero. Trautmann, the goalkeeper of Manchester City, was hailed as a hero after playing the last 16 minutes of City’s FA Cup triumph over Birmingham with a broken neck.

When the club signed him as goalkeeper, 20,000 fans demonstrated in protest. After the cup victory several times as many cheered him as a hero.

Trautmann was volunteer, like Huber. He won an Iron Cross, too. One difference is Trautmann was a paratrooper in the German Army and stayed in England after the war.

Up to a million men fought in the Waffen SS, and in later World War 2 years many were conscripts. However, Huber volunteered in Austria.

In today’s RNZ broadcast, the southern media seemed to be criticised for not hounding Huber. The two interviewees, who have written about Huber for a magazine, said Huber was near (but not in) the SS massacre of the French village of Oradour-sur-Glane.

Max Hastings wrote a book about an SS division’s march through France in June 1944 to meet the D-Day invasion force. It was delayed by sabotage and civilian resistance. In reprisal, SS soldiers murdered more than 600 civilians in the village.

Trials of an initial 65 survivors of the 200 or so SS men in the massacre began in 1953 and ended in 2014. Twenty were found guilty in the first trial, but they were French Alsatians, and there was such an uproar in Alsace that France passed an amnesty law and they were released. By 1958 all the German defendants had been released.

From today’s broadcast, it seems unlikely the latest magazine feature successfully links Huber to the village atrocity.

Scores of former SS soldiers from countries including Latvia and Denmark, settled in New Zealand without much notice. Two reasonably prominent NZ business people of the 1950s and early 1960s were reputed to have been fought in Scandinavian-Baltic Waffen SS divisions.

In three months, it will be 75 years since World War 2 ended. These SS veterans are almost certainly dead.

Dwelling on Huber’s military record could stimulate sympathy for this family, just as there has been a backlash against the persecution of British veterans of Iraq and the Irish Troubles.

The niggle, niggle, niggle about New Zealand soldiers’ war in Afghanistan is also brought to mind.
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May 30, 2021 3:42pm
- Jack5
  
  Edit: In three months, it will be 75 76 years since World War 2 ended.
  
  Sorry!
  
  6 2
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  May 30, 2021 5:15pm
- MCos
  
  It seems after WWII around forty suspected war criminals settled in NZ.
  
  4 2
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  May 30, 2021 6:07pm
- Mike
  
  You really feel that holding our soldiers to account is just like checking whether Nazi soldiers committed war crimes?
  
  2 6
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  May 30, 2021 6:16pm
  - Jack5
    
    With Hager the Horrible, are you Milky (a.k.a. Mike a.k.a Mikenmild)?
    
    5 1
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    May 30, 2021 7:58pm
- Tauhei Notts
  
  In 1961 I got a prize as the most improved student in Form Two. I chose, as my book prize, “Steppes To Wembley” by Bert Trautmann.
  That was nearly 60 years ago. I have re-read the book several times. I imagine it is a collector’s item.
  
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  May 30, 2021 8:46pm
  - Sponge
    
    I would love to read that. I have not looked but doubt it is on Amazon.
    
    2 0
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    May 30, 2021 9:02pm
    - mikenmildagain
      
      Of course it is
      https://www.amazon.com/Steppes-Wembley-Champion-sports-books/dp/B0000CJHIL/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=steppes+to+wembley&qid=1622368077&sr=8-1
      
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      May 30, 2021 9:48pm
      - Sponge
        
        Thank you. I am not sure my curiosity runs to $48 for one book (not that that is your problem of course). It is something I would love to read though.
        
        3 0
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        May 30, 2021 10:12pm
Inandout

Forty years each in the slammer and those smiles will disappear once inside.
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2021/05/29/two-illegal-alien-ms-13-gang-members-get-40-years-in-prison-for-murdering-girl-in-satanic-ritual/
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May 30, 2021 4:00pm
- Keith White
  
  They’ll get a Biden / Harris pardon and / or be let out when the next WuPox variant strikes.
  
  6 2
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  May 30, 2021 8:09pm

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