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October 30, 2021 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 30 October 2021

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General Debate

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Benedict Yu

Well I am shocked. A well written and researched article in the New Zealand media on vaccinating young children against COVID.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/126811054/covid19-should-we-vaccinate-the-kids

Consensus is that the benefits do not outweigh the risks. That is not to say there are zero benefits. But they are very marginal and accrue to old and vulnerable people. And as one clinician pointed out in the article, it is not ethical to vaccinate every child in New Zealand based on such a rationale.

And yet this evidence did not get through to Associate Minister Peeni Henare who recently “told a hui of Māori health workers in Christchurch on Tuesday that rolling the vaccine out to that age group before the start of the 2022 school year was an “ideal time”.”

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/126662688/children-aged-5-to-11-could-be-in-line-for-covid19-vaccine-politicians-say
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October 30, 2021 8:00am
- Mr_Blobby
  
  Since when has ethics been a thing in the covid debate.
  
  Did you not get the message, the science is settled.
  
  “The only truth is the truth we tell you”
  
  Everything else is misinformation from conspiracy nut jobs.
  
  Mask on mask off mask on
  
  No mandatory vaccinations mandatory vaccinations
  
  Kindness is the new apartheid
  
  Unvaccinated equals infected the new leppers.
  
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  October 30, 2021 8:18am
  - Nukuleka
    
    Got an invitation to a party tonight- only the vaccinated can attend. Their right, of course, to decide who may come to their home but, although I am double jabbed, I won’t be going.
    
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    October 30, 2021 9:39am
    - Cinematic
      
      Well done. Nor would I.
      
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      October 30, 2021 10:28am
    - Man Among the Ruins
      
      Probably for the best. Those self-righteous, sanctimonious vaxxed bores are the worst, aren’t they. The virtue signaling is off the charts with some of them. If they are like that after shot #2, imagine what they’ll be like when they get into double-digits. Keep in mind that he who laughs last, laughs loudest.
      
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      October 30, 2021 10:46am
    - mawm
      
      Give them this to read from The Lancet:
      Community transmission and viral load kinetics of the SARS-CoV-2- Delta variant in vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals in the UK; a prospective, longitudinal, cohort study
      
      ” Nonetheless, fully vaccinated individuals with breakthrough infections have peak viral load similar to unvaccinated cases and can eﬃciently transmit infection in household settings, including to fully vaccinated contacts.”
      
      https://www.scribd.com/document/535734554/s-1473309921006484#download&from_embed
      
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      October 30, 2021 11:52am
      - krazykiwi
        
        They wouldn’t read it. Anyone who readily declares the unvaccinated as dangerously unclean is long since past rational thought.
        
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        October 30, 2021 1:20pm
    - krazykiwi
      
      Tell them you’re double vaxxed and despite your boils, conjunctivitis, chlamydia, flu, rhinitis and head lice, you are looking forward to being with them 🙂
      
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      October 30, 2021 1:26pm
    - rouppe
      
      Got an invitation to dinner tonight, from a friend who is not double vaxxed.
      
      I’m going
      
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      October 30, 2021 2:56pm
    - KH
      
      Nukaleka. I am struggling to work out why you would not go. Please elaborate.
      
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      October 30, 2021 4:20pm
    - Surely Knott
      
      The freedom lovers and unvaxxed should hold their own party. It will be heaps more fun.
      
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      October 30, 2021 7:30pm
  - ABS4EVA
    
    Water on the Brain
    
    WET market Theory
    
    Water on the Brain
    3 waters
    
    Water and Flush democracy
    and NZ down the Toilet
    
    They are just a bunch of floaty
    Socialist Turds
    
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    October 30, 2021 11:42pm
- kowtow
  
  Last night on the “news” ,was , shock horror an item on Fizzers’ waning efficacy , they’ve known about this for months but are only talking about it now cos they’re pushing the need for boosters .
  
  Boosters! When the initial stroll out hasn’t finished yet.
  
  Wot a great ‘vaccine’ it isn’t.
  
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  October 30, 2021 8:21am
  - Mr_Blobby
    
    Feeling a bit like you are on a vaccination hampstead wheel?
    
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    October 30, 2021 8:50am
    - Cassandra
      
      Hamster? Which they have in Hampstead.
      
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      October 30, 2021 10:07am
      - Mr_Blobby
        
        The curse of autocorrect
        
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        October 30, 2021 7:26pm
    - Ed Snack
      
      I hope that is a “hamster” wheel, or is there something in Hampstead that I am unaware of ?
      
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      October 30, 2021 10:19am
  - Benedict Yu
    
    Most people still don’t get it. They think the vaccine is like the measles vaccine. Because guess what? Jacinda said so.
    
    “So principle number one will remain – maintaining our elimination strategy to stamp out the virus, so we can maintain our hard won gains and keep our options open.”
    
    http://www.beehive.govt.nz/speech/speech-reconnecting-new-zealanders-world-forum
    
    “Measles is both incredibly infectious but also potentially deadly for a young unvaccinated child. When we have outbreaks in New Zealand, we contact-trace, and we isolate. These are the public health tools that in the absence of lockdowns, we will absolutely continue to use,” Ardern said.”
    
    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/explained/126098610/covid19-nz-how-viable-is-new-zealands-coronavirus-elimination-plan-in-the-time-of-delta
    
    She compared it to measles. Everyone knows that we can wipe out measles with a vaccine. Jacinda says we can do that with COVID. She never lies. We are saved.
    
    I wish this was a parody rather than reality.
    
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    October 30, 2021 8:58am
    - Loddenthinks
      
      You’ve changed your tune, Benedict. I’ve been telling you for months the “vaccine” is anything but. Pleased you’ve taken the red pill all the same 🙂
      
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      October 30, 2021 9:09am
      - Benedict Yu
        
        I disagree. I have changed my tune on childhood vaccinations. However for at least 6 months I have been reporting evidence that the vaccine degrades rapidly and loses its efficacy against infection prevention. I ridiculed Jacinda’s measles analogy on the day she said it.
        
        So I disagree. I have been consistent in my views. Except about vaccinating young children. I explained my reasons for that change of mind a few days ago.
        
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        October 30, 2021 9:37am
      - Ed Snack
        
        Just to support Benedict, he has indeed been mentioning the waning effectiveness of the vaccine from when the data first became available from Israel some months ago.
        
        But good to see that you (Benedict) have also come round on something I’ve been banging on about for months, the serious problem with vaccinating those under, say, 17 though that number could be as high as 25-30. The benefit just does not exist for children.
        
        UK figures strongly suggest that for healthy children (no serious comorbidities, and Asthma is not a comorbidity, luckily) t,he risk of death from catching Covid is approximately zero, 1 in a million or less. Although it is probably deliberately obfuscated, the risk of death for the same group from the vaccine itself is NOT zero, more like something between 5 and 30 per million, with significant serious impacts considerably higher again. US figures are harder to interpret, their deaths are higher in this group from Covid, but they make no effort to separate vulnerable children and their counting methodology is pretty suspect in many areas.
        
        For reasons not entirely clear, children seem to catch Covid and clear it out without significant symptoms most of the time. Few random tests for antibodies have been carried out anywhere, but the few that have suggest that possibly a majority of children have already had Covid in places where it is endemic (so not NZ) and most were simply unaware of that. In California I think it was something like a 60% positive antibody test result in children.
        
        In the Pfizer tests, giving the vaccine to children who already had antibodies gave zero additional protection, possibly the numbers in the test were too low, but no statistically valid difference was detected.
        
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        October 30, 2021 10:29am
    - Aquataur
      
      And it is false to call the Pfisser shot a vaccine.
      
      Until very recently, the CDC in the US defined a vaccine as ‘an antigen that prevented a disease’.
      
      The definition was changed to allow the Pfisser shot to be called a vaccine, when it would not have qualified under previous definitions.
      
      More food for the conspiracy theorists
      
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      October 30, 2021 9:39am
      - Don Beckett
        
        The difference between a conspiracy theory and the Truth, is about 5 months.
        
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        October 30, 2021 12:48pm
    - KevO'Brien
      
      Measles vaccines are not genetic experimental modifiers, they are real vaccines.
      
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      October 30, 2021 9:57am
      - rouppe
        
        The Pfizer mRNA product is not gene modification.
        
        Genes are in the nucleus of cells.
        Normally mRNA is produced by a cell based on a DNA in a process called transcription.
        The mRNA is processed in cytoplasm to produce the required protein in a process called translation.
        
        The Pfizer product is mRNA, thereby bypassing the process of transcription from DNA.
        
        Therefore genes have not been modified in order to produce the covid mRNA that triggers the production of protein receptors that fight covid.
        
        If you actually believe this is gene manipulation, please seek professional help. Because you are deranged.
        
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        October 30, 2021 3:09pm
    - doggone7
      
      I read the Beehive speech. I couldn’t find the part where Ardern said we could wipe out COVID with a vaccine just we do with measles.
      
      All I found was:
      “But if everyone heeds the call to be vaccinated by the end of 2021, it is our goal to reduce and then eventually remove the need for lock downs. Instead, we’ll be in a position to take what has sometimes been called the measles approach to COVID 19.
      
      Many won’t know that the use of contact tracing and isolation in New Zealand is not new. Measles is both incredibly infectious but also potentially deadly for a young unvaccinated child. When we have outbreaks in New Zealand, we contact trace and we isolate. These are the public health tools, that in the absence of lock downs, we will continue to use.”
      
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      October 30, 2021 10:41am
      - Don Beckett
        
        But I remember hearing her say that Covid could be stamped out “like the measles”. So you are correct as far as you go.
        
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        October 30, 2021 12:50pm
      - Aurelia
        
        I remember her saying the Pfizer vaccine was just like the measles vaccine. It was approx 2 days into the lockdown and was said from the 1 pm podium of lies. I spewed at her bare faced lie at the time. J Cindy wouldn’t even know the measles Vax is a live vaccine which is why it is 100% accurate at stoping transmission. The pfizzer Vax of course is a different variety.
        
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        October 30, 2021 6:41pm
      - Loddenthinks
        
        That whole “absence of lockdowns” thing – how’s that working out?
        
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        October 31, 2021 9:11am
  - Man Among the Ruins
    
    There is no argument at all to support the presumption that they are now, or have ever, acted in good faith. We’ve been doing our own research into the inefficacy of the mRNA vaccines and reading about it here in many KB commenter posts for months, yet we only hear about from “official” sources now? The moral is clear: DO NOT take them at their word about anything, because they are very selective with the truth. They never show you the cards they are holding until it suits them. My advice now, even if you have already had your two shots, is to opt out of a lifetime of – probably unwanted and certainly unnecessary – coerced medical treatments. If you don’t see the clear direction of travel by now, there may be no hope.
    
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    October 30, 2021 9:11am
  - andrew davies
    
    “Fizzers’ waning efficacy , ”
    Which raises the question. Shouldn’t those who have been vaxxed over 6 months ago be excluded from the vaxxed stat in determining the 90%?
    
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    October 30, 2021 10:08am
    - Man Among the Ruins
      
      Logically, yes.
      
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      October 30, 2021 10:28am
    - All_on_Red
      
      Shhhhhhh
      I want to get out of jail
      
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      October 30, 2021 10:29am
    - Ed Snack
      
      That is coming, see Israel for an idea of the way it will go. The end game is a booster every 4-5 months for life, and if you haven’t purchased a few Pfizer shares for your retirement fund now would be a good time to get in on the money train.
      
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      October 30, 2021 10:32am
      - Frank the tank
        
        Meh. They’ll be better drugs and covid will go the way of the flu – most strains being harmless to all but the most infirm.
        
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        October 30, 2021 2:28pm
  - KH
    
    Here’s why I want the unvaccinated to stay out of my cafe.
    https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300441329/your-unvaccinated-friend-is-roughly-20-times-more-likely-to-give-you-covid
    
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    October 30, 2021 4:25pm
    - Loddenthinks
      
      No, that’s why you should never read anything in $1uffed, and if you accidentally do, you should by no means believe a word of it.
      
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      October 31, 2021 9:12am
- cmm
  
  Shocked? Why? I suppose I too am surprised that something like that slipped through the $100M filter.
  
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  October 30, 2021 8:24am
- R
  
  Will parents be given the information in Macdonald’s article? Probably not. So, they’ll be making decisions for their children, who are too young to give informed consent, without the necessary information.
  
  I am interested in this comment from Macdonald:
  
  There are also still unknowns. It’s not clear to what extent children are affected by long Covid – symptoms such as headaches and fatigue that can linger months after even mild infections.
  
  There’s also unknowns about the vaccine. It’s worth noting that those who get the flu can suffer serious long term effects. One would think that Covid is the only thing that can lead to negative consequences!
  
  One of the main points made by Macdonald is that the benefits may not outweigh the risks. A similar point was made by experts in the US earlier this year. They said that the vaccines shouldn’t have been given full approval. It’s a shame those concerns have been largely ignored.
  
  For each covid-19 vaccine, the benefits may ultimately outweigh the harms. Or not. Or we may end up in a more nuanced position, finding that benefits outweigh harms for some populations, but not others. Only time—and better evidence—will tell. And so it is vital we allow the scientific process the time required to gather and assess the evidence to be confident in the decisions we ultimately have to make.
  
  https://www.webmd.com/cold-and-flu/flu-complications
  
  https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2021/06/08/why-we-petitioned-the-fda-to-refrain-from-fully-approving-any-covid-19-vaccine-this-year/
  
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  October 30, 2021 8:44am
  - ClanMcleod
    
    The only McDonalds parents will get vaccine advice from will be the one that sells Big Macs. I won’t be at all surprised if they get a free Happy Meal and toy with every kid’s vaccination.
    Despicable.
    
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    October 30, 2021 9:45am
- Scott
  
  Quite right Benedict. The latest figures I saw about Covid deaths in the United States up to September 8 was that 643,858 have died within 30 days of a positive Covid test. I strongly suspect many of them may have died with Covid, or even with a false positive Covid result, rather than of Covid.
  
  Anyway of that number, 609,537, that is 95% were aged 50 or over.
  Only 412 young people aged 0 to 17 had died of Covid or with Covid.
  When you put that number in a calculator it works out to be 0%.
  
  So why would you vaccinate children?
  
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  October 30, 2021 8:54am
  - emmess
    
    Almost all of the children had severe underlying conditions, tragically they were likely to die soon anyway.
    Only about 20 completely healthy children have died
    
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    October 30, 2021 9:48am
  - ClanMcleod
    
    From the FDA meeting which approved the jab to 5 – 12 year olds. One of the committee members states:
    
    “We’re never gonna learn about how safe the vaccine is until we start giving it, that’s just the way it goes”.
    
    Follow the “science” you damned anti vaxxers.
    
    https://twitter.com/Techno_Fog/status/1453095851824459776
    
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    October 30, 2021 9:58am
    - Aurelia
      
      Bet none of their 5-11 year olds will be getting that Vax.
      
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      October 30, 2021 6:47pm
  - Aquataur
    
    And those that did die had an average of 2.3 co-morbitity conditions according to the CDC data
    
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    October 30, 2021 10:52am
  - doggone7
    
    We can pull out all sorts of dates and stats about different age groups and find the numbers of kids under 15 who die from Measles, Mumps and Rubella.
    
    If we get a grand total of 0% is not reasonable to ask “Why would you vaccinate children?”
    
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    October 30, 2021 8:21pm
- Chuck Bird
  
  Thanks for the link. I have a 5 year old granddaughter. I will forward the article to her mother.
  
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  October 30, 2021 8:58am
  - Benedict Yu
    
    One problem is that the large numbers means that inevitably a 5 year old will die of covid and the vaccine advocates will point and wail.
    
    But 5 year olds die every week. Probably every day. We should reduce risks of young children dying. But it is not from COVID. It is ensuring that their parents put them in child constraints in the car, that they don’t run over them in the driveway and that they wear life jackets when they go out in the boat.
    
    Avoidable deaths from those things will be much higher in young children than will be the case for covid.
    
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    October 30, 2021 9:24am
    - waikatosinger
      
      Will they point and wail when a 5 year old dies of vaccine side effects. Which also due to large numbers is probable.
      
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      October 30, 2021 10:21am
    - Ed Snack
      
      From the number of deaths, RSV is way more lethal than Covid for youngsters, especially the very young. I think we’ve had at least 8 deaths from RSV in 2021, and yet, where’s the panic ?
      
      I noted in an earlier comment that a vaccine for RSV was trialled some years back, but the trial went tragically awry and a couple of children died from the trial vaccine so it was (obviously) not distributed and research on RSV went in the back burner for a bit.
      
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      October 30, 2021 11:13am
- Cinematic
  
  When will Baker, Jackson etc finally be exposed as raving covid nutters? I mean to the masses, I could see their extreme advice for what it was 20 months ago.
  
  They haven’t been truthful either, from Jackson on ZB the other day claiming NSW hospitals were overwhelmed to Baker referencing mass graves in NY. None of it true.
  
  Now these nutters want to jab all kids.
  
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  October 30, 2021 9:03am
  - doggone7
    
    Baker referenced mass NY graves but what he said wasn’t true? What did he say, or claim? You say her ‘referenced.” Like this?:
    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52241221
    
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    October 30, 2021 11:19am
- virtualmark
  
  Benedict,
  
  You’ll find this chart interesting … https://twitter.com/PaulMainwood/status/1454072198528962561
  
  That’s the UK Covid rates by age over the last few weeks. It’s in the (unvaccinated) kids. With a smaller number of (mainly breakthrough) infections in their parents.
  
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  October 30, 2021 9:49am
  - Cinematic
    
    It has been in the (unvaccinated) kids since day one. What piece of magic do you think had prevented it from travelling through that cohort up to now?
    
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    October 30, 2021 10:30am
    - virtualmark
      
      No magic. Benedict’s original post was about vaccinating children. The chart I linked to shows very clearly how effective the vaccines have been (compare the infection rates in the age cohorts that have been vaccinated vs the infection rates in kids) and supports the rationale that the next thing we need to do is vaccinate the 5-11 yo.
      
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      October 30, 2021 4:51pm
- Aquataur
  
  You could email Nikki at
  
  nikki.macdonald@stuff.co.nz
  
  to thank her and to support reasoned articles on Covid rather than the tripe we mostly get served
  
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  October 30, 2021 10:50am
- Graeme Hall
  
  Dr Harvey Risch, professor of epidemiology at Yale (350 peer-reviewed papers, 44,000 citations) has been saying for a few months now on Laura Ingraham’s Fox News program that the dangers of vaccination may outweigh any benefits for young children.
  
  Dr Risch has also talked about treatment options for CoVid-19 and it seems there are a number of options that can help, provided the patient is treated early enough. This is being put into practice. For instance, in Florida the Governor Ron DeSantis has set up clinics offering free treatment for CoVid with monoclonal antibodies.
  
  In NZ, we seem to be living in a bubble of 5 million with our Govt & their closed circle of experts reluctant to acknowledge there are highly rated scientists & clinicians beyond our shores who have relevant experience & resources, and whose views based on evidence & trials, might just be worth tapping into.
  
  Our media reinforce this impression that the Govt knows all by restricting discussion & only broadcasting the Govt line. It is almost as though the media believe in Plato’s idea of the “noble lie” & as arbiters on the issue, think the public should not be properly informed for their own good.
  
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  October 30, 2021 12:02pm
Vory v zakone

Meanwhile somewhere in Rome…

A fake doctor, a fake president, and a fake pope walk into a bar.
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October 30, 2021 8:02am
Mr_Blobby

Welcome to another day of lockdown tyranny.

4 to 6 weeks to red light day for Auckland.

Or is that apartheid day.
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October 30, 2021 8:03am
- Scott
  
  Mr Blobby – I do feel for all Aucklanders. Because there is no end in sight. Wayne Mapp, bless his heart, thinks that 90% vaccination is achievable. I say it is not. I don’t believe that we will reach 90% for the whole country.
  
  At some point the government will have to relent and let Auckland out of virtual house arrest. But I think it is a long time coming. I wonder whether you will be free by Christmas?
  
  I hope that I am wrong. But with the head girl at the helm, I wouldn’t put anything past our current government.
  
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  October 30, 2021 9:06am
  - Cinematic
    
    90% may happen and the social and economic damage wrought will be unimaginable. Businesses are now dropping like flies and everyone’s a little crazier. Plenty more of both to come sadly.
    
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    October 30, 2021 9:56am
  - DeepBlue
    
    That day is end of Nov. The date (29th I recall) which JA reviews the progress.
    
    She will announce the date Aucklanders can go free, possibly as soon as 30 November, because she will not let Act and National have any airtime around their 1 December Freedom day.
    
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    October 30, 2021 10:46am
    - mawm
      
      Your freedom will be dependent on your vaccine status. Jacinda, like Dan Andrews in Victoria, is intent on punishing those that have not bowed to their demands. There is no scientific reason to prevent the deplorables from mixing with the jabbed.
      
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      October 30, 2021 12:17pm
  - Chuck Bird
    
    90% may happen in Feb but by them many will require a booster.
    
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    October 30, 2021 1:42pm
  - Brian McDonald
    
    Scott, you seem unaware that a large number of people in Auckland are working. The 90% mark has been passed in the West and Auckland Central with Manukau closing in. the proportion of those waiting for a second shot was less than 10% as of yesterday. We are getting daily updates on those numbers now.
    As for the waning efficacy of Pfizer, that has been known for months. Few are complaining that the work face changes, it’s about adapting and getting on with it. The chorus of that “only” lasts for 3 months is hardly deafening if one wants to be out and about.
    It’s difficult to imagine anyone being upset if boosters are needed unless they are anti-vaxers anyway. It’s made clearer every day where business wants to be.
    
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    October 30, 2021 1:54pm
- Paulus
  
  Isn’t the 1st December still going to be the prison release day in Auckland ?
  
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  October 30, 2021 10:27am
- Aquataur
  
  Yep – we are in lockdown because :-
  
  a. the Vaccine passport system is not ready
  b. Cindy is a cruel psychopath
  c. Cindy is concerned about the at most 5 additional Covid deaths that will result from extending lockdown past 1 December
  d. she is a fool who has surrounded herself with alarmist syncopathic advisors
  e. she wants to be a world leader in vax rates
  
  f. All of the above
  
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  October 30, 2021 10:58am
  - Clownworld
    
    g. The new stage if reset aka climate change to tax and monitor all energy use, transport movement and all purchases via qr codes and phone apps to be ready 2022?
    
    h. Hyper inflation or stagflation, supply change busts, food shortages.
    
    i. Financial collapse via housing bust, economic debt and entering cashless society via a new “fair” global re-distribution of wealth as the new solution to a problem created by the 4th industrial totalatarians.
    
    Hopefully not, but looking likely.
    
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    October 30, 2021 1:16pm
Bridgenag

They need to extend the target group so that the 90% is not attainable and they can continue to change the laws while everyone is locked up
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October 30, 2021 8:06am
- Clownworld
  
  Yes Bridgenag furthermore the laws and changes being passed are using the distraction of Chinese flu and corporate solutions to get things done which are much worse.
  
  (1)The plan just before lockdown Grant Robertson managed to pass access to spend more. Curious timing in hindsight. Why the need then to print money?
  
  (2) Most insidious abortion laws in the world past during first lockdown. Kindness first, rate abortions going up prob due to lockdown as well. Was trending slightly down in orevious years.
  
  (3) Widescale changes to positioning a new lie of partnership between Crown and Maori rather than treaty to exchange land for soverignty etc.
  
  (4) Covid election no mandate to change anything as no policies announced.
  
  (5) Burying debate, restricting parliament and yet passing laws under urgency.
  
  (6) Bribing media to be the sole messengers of truth podiums.
  
  (7) Restructuring DHBs at a time of supposedly an already wasted 18mths of govt not supporting by investing by acclerating doctors and nurses to return yo NZ and building hospitals (Dunedin was it not even started) spending on equipment and ICU.
  Feels like they want the health system to collapse?
  
  (8) Three waters(gate) supposedly listen after massive marketing campaign. Then was it 60 out of 70 local councils thought they coild opt out , told they can’t. So the major resource all NZers need will likely be in central control by despots and partnered with Mongrel Mob affiliates?
  
  And on and on it goes …
  
  Feel free to add the real stories going on while they distract us all as we lose more jobs, can’t replace those resigning , real purchasing power diminishes etc.
  
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  October 30, 2021 1:45pm
R

Nikki doesn’t seem to have swallowed the Kool Aid. She’ll have to be sent to Coventry.

research suggests the hospitalisation numbers are likely to be an overestimate, as up to 80 per cent of Covid-positive children in hospital will be there with Covid, not because of Covid. Sydney 15-year-old Osama Suduh, for example, died in hospital with Covid, but from pneumococcal meningitis.
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October 30, 2021 8:09am
Pavel

Did anyone notice that yesterday Newshub ran an article about how a study in England showed vaccinated people spread covid just as easily and equally as unvaccinated people. An hour later Stuff ran an article claiming that you are 20 times more likely to get covid from an unvaccinated person. I’m confused but I guess I should trust Stuff, after all they have an expert team of fact checkers who they run their articles past before print and we can trust them the most.
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October 30, 2021 8:11am
- CJames
  
  I think you forgot the sarc tag for those who may be confused or feel the need to correct you.
  
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  October 30, 2021 8:48am
  - sooty
    
    Forgot the “yer right” as well!
    
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    October 30, 2021 9:06am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Gotta be really confused to not recognise that as sarc
    
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    October 30, 2021 9:20am
    - kowtow
      
      I dunno , a very high %age of NZ voters think Ardern is competent and kind .
      
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      October 30, 2021 9:58am
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        Yes, but they are loopy lefties and would not know sarc if it smacked them between the eyes.
        Leftie are born without a sense of humour, or sense of anything really
        
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        October 30, 2021 4:02pm
- Mr_Blobby
  
  Maybe the unvaccinated ie infectious should wear a big brightly coloured star to indicate their infectious status.
  
  $20000 fine and 6 months in a managed isolation detention camp for those found not wearing their star in public.
  
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  October 30, 2021 8:57am
  - krazykiwi
    
    I saw a “Make Orwell Fiction Again” cap recently. I’d wear one of those.
    
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    October 30, 2021 10:03am
  - GJM
    
    Yes, we should have a camp where they could be concentrated together. An educational facility where the non believers can be re-educated so they understand the real truth and not wrongthink. Kiwirail can provide budget transport to these facilities.
    In order not to be a burden, the poor deluded fools could work to pay off their debt, so that work will make them free.
    
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    October 30, 2021 4:56pm
- kevn
  
  @Pavel… Satire of course?
  
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  October 30, 2021 9:03am
- Cinematic
  
  That Stuff article was an absolute cluster. Nonsense remains nonsense no matter how hard you spin it.
  
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  October 30, 2021 9:08am
- Mr_Blobby
  
  I have a questions about the vaccination passports.
  
  What will the expiry date be, from time of 2nd jab or date of application I am assuming their will be an expiry date.
  
  How long will it remain current, overseas some a suggesting a booster will be required at 5 months. Given our slow roll out rate will ours be 6 months, 1 year, 2 years, how long will it take to get and renew, fire arms license renewals are currently over 1 year.
  
  At 6 months some will already be overdue for their booster.
  
  What if I don’t have a cell phone can I use a paper passport
  
  How safe is my data, the government doesn’t have a good track record with data security.
  
  Who will have access to my private data.
  
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  October 30, 2021 9:11am
  - ClanMcleod
    
    Oh if only Michael Palin and John Cleese had access to this shit in the 70s, imagine how many classic sketches we would be revisiting today!!! They never had access to gold like this. It would make The Ministry of Funny Walks look like a documentary.
    
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    October 30, 2021 10:15am
  - 70andstilllearning
    
    ACC staff for a starter? 🙂
    
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    October 30, 2021 10:34am
- virtualmark
  
  That Newshub article just doesn’t pass the sniff test.
  
  I’m surprised the difference would be as high as the 20x the Stuff article says, but I’d expect it’s at least a 10x difference in spreading.
  
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  October 30, 2021 9:51am
  - mawm
    
    That news hub article is about a peer reviewed study published in The Lancet. I linked to it earlier today.
    
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    October 30, 2021 12:22pm
    - virtualmark
      
      Yep. Puzzling. Because compare it to the UK covid infection rates shown in this chart https://twitter.com/PaulMainwood/status/1454072198528962561
      
      The infection rates among the vaccinated cohort are about 10% of those in the unvaccinated (children) cohort.
      
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      October 30, 2021 4:52pm
  - Alan1930
    
    The two articles are talking about different things – and actually align very closely.
    
    The first is talking about peak viral loads of INFECTED vaccinated people being the same as unvaccinated people. The latter is talking about the odds of becoming infected after being double jabbed being 10 times lower.
    
    The first documents a 52% reduction in infections being caught FROM vaccinated people; the latter assumed a 50% reduction.
    
    Both are peer reviewed. Both are accurate. There’s no conflict – only people’s (mostly) wilful misinterpretation.
    
    The authors of the first encourage people to get vaccinated without delay.
    
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    October 30, 2021 3:55pm
- Alan Wilkinson
  
  Yes, Baker citing a vague Oz source contradicting a current paper in Nature as the UK opens up.
  
  Put the “experts” back in their box and defund Stuff for malpractice.
  
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  October 30, 2021 9:53am
  - Cinematic
    
    Baker and Jackson are running an extreme campaign and have toothy etc wrapped around their little finger.
    
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    October 30, 2021 9:58am
- KevO'Brien
  
  It was probably this from the Lancet:
  https://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/latest-lancet-study-shows-limits-vaccines-preventing-infection-household-members
  
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  October 30, 2021 10:00am
- Alan1930
  
  Your post is a clear example of an unqualified person misinterpreting and/or cherry-picking statements out of context to validate an agenda. It may get you many “thumbs up” from people with aligned agendas who are only to happy to give you validation but – as it always the case – it’s not reality.
  
  The only real question remaining is “was your misinterpretation and/or cherry-picking deliberate or not?”
  
  The two articles referred to align fairly closely; the former is talking about how INFECTED vaccinated people can spread covid. The latter is talking mostly about how being vaccinated means that you’re around 10 times more likely not to get infected in the first place. THEY ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT THE SAME THING. The latter goes on to assume 1/2 of 1/10th = 1/20th (or “20 times when considered from the other perspective”) whereas the former isn’t even talking about the “1/10th” and although it talks about the peak viral loads being the same (between vaccinated and unvaccinated) that’s not the only factor that determines infection rates; length of time with the load also comes in to play (with all other factors being equal) — and that’s lower in vaccinated people; 1/2 lower is the assumption made by the research that the Stuff article comments on. A far bigger study – with more relevant date – is referenced below.
  
  Let’s quickly recap from that peer-reviewed study:
  
  – It was a study of 621 people in the UK with COVID-19
  
  – The analysis found that 25% of vaccinated houshold contacts tested positive vs 38% of unvaccinated cases. (so “52% vs the 50% used in the Stuff article”).
  
  – Infections in vaccinated people cleared more quickly, but resulted in a similar peak viral load.
  
  – The authors urge unvaccinated people to get vaccinated to protect themselves from severe disease and those eligible for a booster to receive it as offered.
  
  Here’s a link to a study of 1,789,728 individuals in Sweden:
  
  https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2785141
  
  The summary is as follows:
  
  “Findings In this cohort study of 1 789 728 individuals from 814 806 families in Sweden, family members without immunity had a 45% to 97% lower risk of contracting COVID-19 as the number of immune family members increased.”
  
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  October 30, 2021 3:50pm
kowtow

Another day , another quietly instituted Maorified imposition.

“During a week with no shortage of major news, another Government behemoth quietly slipped out of the shipyards and headed out to sea, largely below the radar…..

As a result, Te Ara Paerangi — Future Pathways was launched with little fanfare on Thursday morning in Wellington. For those working in publicly funded science, this was the government green paper they had been eagerly anticipating……

The Future Pathways programme would study ways to build a modern sector with better funding systems, that was more inclusive of Maori and Te Tiriti, and give better support for career scientists……”

https://www.odt.co.nz/opinion/editorial/govt%E2%80%99s-next-big-experiment
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October 30, 2021 8:14am
- westernScientest
  
  Yep, its all pretty uninformative, but here is the link to the documents:
  
  https://www.mbie.govt.nz/science-and-technology/science-and-innovation/research-and-data/te-ara-paerangi-future-pathways/
  
  Basically they want to maori-ify everything and give the minister and MBIE bureaucrats way more control over all science. About what you would expect from this lot.
  
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  October 30, 2021 8:53am
- UrbanNeocolonialist
  
  The message is clear; if you are a career scientist, or aspire to be, then leave NZ.
  
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  October 30, 2021 9:08am
Yvette

3 Waters – and if you have 3 Waters up too the gills –
Scroll, scroll, scroll
Gently down the screen

In a statement, a spokesperson for Managed Isolation and Quarantine confirmed the 102-room hotel had just one guest between October 21 and October 28. It meant 88 isolation rooms went empty over that period, as well as 13 quarantine rooms. Up to 50 staff were still working at the facility during that time, looking after the single guest … while thousands remain stuck overseas.
And this outrageous administration obscenity seems to have occurred without Maori iwi involvement.

But wait until Maori iwi (Ihumatao any time soon?) and this inept non-delivery Government combine to bring you 3 Waters, with no privatisation – as a Maori spokesman yesterday promised, but he in fact represents the actual minority ethnic group that will have 50 percent control, so indeed a privatisation already.

New [Thursday, 3 June 2021] independent analysis and modelling predicts up to $185 billion is required in the next 30 years to upgrade our drinking water, stormwater, and sewage infrastructure. *

Is the estimate of $185 billion in 30 years calculated by the same people who underestimated Auckland Light Rail by up to 1,000 percent?

And –
Dr Mike Joy, Senior Researcher, Institute for Governance and Policy Studies, Victoria University of Wellington, comments:
… “The reports are all about infrastructure. However, in the case of drinking water quality, infrastructure to treat water is the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff. I could find no mention in the press release, or associated documents, of the fence at the top of the cliff, which is protecting water at the catchment scale – i.e. safeguarding the sources of the water.
“The briefing document from the Department of Internal Affairs doesn’t mention sources or catchments, neither does the FAQ document or the MBIE report. The Water Infrastructure Commission of Scotland (WICS) final report – economic analysis of water services aggregation mentions groundwater once – but nothing about protecting their sources.

“Missing this crucial ‘fourth water’ – the source water – seems odd. I note that the summary report on the workshops held for the Three Waters Reform Programme, released in March 2021, showed that in polls held during the workshop, taking a catchment view of water ranked as the second most important objective by attendees.
“Finally, I could find no mention of one of the emerging issues for New Zealand, that is nitrogen contamination of drinking water. There was no mention of it, nor just how expensive it is to remove nitrate from water.” *

And –
Dr Lokesh Padhye, Department of Civil and Environmental Engineering, University of Auckland, comments:
“The current fragmented model is also less supportive of much-needed research and development (R&D) in the water sector, especially in the areas of monitoring water quality, emerging contaminants, and innovative and sustainable management solutions. *

So Dr Lokesh Padhye seems to support amalgamation – “Consolidating 67 council-owned and managed water service providers into a small number of publicly-owned providers will provide a number of advantages.” – but for similar ‘fourth water’ reasons which Dr Mike Joy points out , are in in the present Mahuta plan.

Since the Entities boundaries are drawn up along Maori traditional catchment areas, does that imply iwi will care for the “fourth water”estate, and at what cost to the taxpayer … already an expense in addition to perhaps $185 billion … plus?

* all 3 Waters quotes: https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO2106/S00023/three-waters-reform-could-cost-185-billion-expert-reaction.htm
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October 30, 2021 8:14am
Bridgenag

Hope this little comment doesn’t take 4 hours like yesterday!
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October 30, 2021 8:19am
cmm

“A spokesperson has since advised the Ministry does not differentiate between those hospitalised for Covid-19 and those hospitalised for something else who also had Covid-19.”

In an evidence-based society gathering this, and other pertinent statistics like comorbidities, would be considered critical.

Instead the only thing we seem to care about is Maori vs Pakeha (other).

There really is no appetite for true health management. Instead there is a drive to simplify the message for political purposes.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300438671/covid19-delta-outbreak-hospitalisation-rate-falling-but-who-has-needed-hospital-care
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October 30, 2021 8:22am
- TS Child
  
  Noting most of the world also doesn’t differentiate. It’s lousy science and shameful that the media bought into it without any questioning. But fabulous for fear mongering.
  
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  October 30, 2021 8:25am
- Paulus Gnome
  
  Bit of a heads up here cmm, the bastards will lie to us, the populace, when it suits them . . .
  
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  October 30, 2021 8:41am
- MCos
  
  Covid-19 is an infectious disease. It stands to reason, therefore, that whatever the patient is in hospital for if they also have covid-19 they will necessarily be included with other covid-19 patients because of isolation requirements.
  
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  October 30, 2021 8:54am
  - bronny1
    
    But how misleading g when they are using it to tell us how bad covid is, so bad that this percentage have needed to be hospitalised…!
    
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    October 30, 2021 3:37pm
Chuck Bird

We just have to be patient. I am keen to see the next poll.

Covid 19 Delta: Steven Joyce – The sound of Labour’s wheels coming off

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/covid-19-delta-steven-joyce-the-sound-of-labours-wheels-coming-off/5B6EWXLUYSRJ6HCKDCHL5O5TAU/
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October 30, 2021 8:24am
- Dairy Flat
  
  That’s paywalled and that rag is getting zero from me. Anyone got the gist of the article?
  
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  October 30, 2021 8:32am
  - Paulus
    
    Yes – a good article from an intelligent person which many of us agree with – this Government is beyond a shamble and it is becoming very obvious they have no idea what they are doing – never did actually – only votes matter not lives.
    And Our elitists are off to Glasgow on Cindy’s plane very shortly so she can be one of 25,000 people attending.
    What it will cost us is beyond belief as she touts for a job.
    Pity she will be coming back.
    
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    October 30, 2021 8:52am
  - MCos
    
    Don’t be a bludger and pay up if want to read the article.
    Stealing from a bookshop is still a crime even if you don’t like the publisher.
    
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    October 30, 2021 8:58am
    - Alan Wilkinson
      
      I don’t want to read the article. I just want this Government out and an end to this Government corruption bribing and coercing our MSM with our money.
      
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      October 30, 2021 9:59am
    - dcrane
      
      Would happily pay for a paper that put out consistently solid journalism. You don’t get that from the Herald much.
      
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      October 30, 2021 11:11am
    - Dairy Flat
      
      The Herrald (sarc) is the propaganda arm of the Reichfeurer and not deserving of support in any way. Also, I am sure that my tax is assisting them to exist so why should I pay again?
      
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      October 30, 2021 12:09pm
    - bronny1
      
      We’ve already paid for it.
      
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      October 30, 2021 3:38pm
  - Paulus Gnome
    
    Go to your local library website and look at it there through press reader secure in the knowledge that you haven’t paid a penny to the chip wrapper while conveniently ignoring the fact that your rates paid for the access meaning it cost ten times the ticket price because of how inefficient our councils are.
    
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    October 30, 2021 9:14am
    - Flossie
      
      Errr…. our library is closed. Something about a level 3 thing I think?
      
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      October 30, 2021 1:15pm
    - Diogenes
      
      The Christchurch library gives access online to the newspapers through its Press Reader service. It is free to join the library. I’d be interested in the difference between using that, and using a simple means of bypassing the NZH paywall.
      
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      October 30, 2021 2:24pm
  - Charmaine Hawke
    
    Dairy Flat get Firefox and the bypass paywalls extension.
    
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    October 30, 2021 9:37am
  - nathie
    
    Here is a small snippet (from a very long article):
    
    To top the week, the Transport Minister announced the latest plan to spend a whopping $15 billion on “light” rail to a small labour-voting slice of the Auckland isthmus.
    Announcing you will spend the equivalent of 6 per cent of our country’s whole economic output on one local transport project in the midst of a pandemic which is already blowing debt out towards 50 per cent of GDP is completely tone deaf. It beggars belief that Grant Robertson let this out the door.
    The underlying thread to this week’s frenetic activity is random decision-making and no strategic leadership. Every announcement seems to add to the pile of problems and questions, rather than shrink it down. That’s bad for any government
    
    Another “thank you” to Winston Peters for defiling MMP and installing a “coalition of losers” back in 2017, rather than go with the majority party at the time, which would have seen the likes of Steven Joyce still guiding NZ over troubled (covid) waters to this day!
    
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    October 30, 2021 9:57am
  - JB.49
    
    @Dairy Flat, if you really want to read it just right click on the article and view source
    
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    October 30, 2021 10:06am
    - dcrane
      
      Very interesting. I had no idea the full text was embedded into those paywalled pages. A bit confusing sorting it out from the html (in my case, via Firefox), but better than nothing.
      
      This must be how they get the full text into search engines.
      
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      October 30, 2021 11:18am
  - Joely Doe
    
    NZ Hearld Premium Article Viewer
    Chrome extension…
    Yep, it is Hearld
    
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    October 30, 2021 11:16am
- cmm
  
  Maybe, but I think Cindy’s in a hovercraft. She doesn’t need wheels.
  
  As I have said often in the past, and is proving more correct every day, not all politicians are judged by the same criteria.
  
  Cindy is the Bridget Jones politician. Over half her popularity comes from her being just another mum who’s bumbling along trying and never quite succeeding most of the time. Making mistakes is part of that quirky charm.
  
  It is only when things really get dire that people want to see a movie of mastery and leadership. Then they will want one of Russell Crowe’s characters to step up.
  
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  October 30, 2021 8:33am
  - Paulus Gnome
    
    This from fb, sorry, metastasis as it is now known, yesterday again showing how Ardern is being perceived abroad.
    
    https://www.facebook.com/nick.neilson.3/videos/442621043924647/?t=38
    
    Seven watchable minutes unlike the whole episode I managed yesterday.
    
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    October 30, 2021 8:38am
  - Benedict Yu
    
    I agree entirely. I was at drinks last night. There was a woman there who told me that she was disappointed that Christchurch was not locked down this week because she likes working at home and spending time with her kids.
    
    This is what you are dealing with.
    
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    October 30, 2021 8:44am
    - Tomtoddy
      
      Selfishness is a hall mark of our brave new world. Once upon a time we were more community minded. Individuals had strong views but they moderated them in the light of what the wider community needed. Social media exacerbates the problem.
      
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      October 30, 2021 9:02am
    - cmm
      
      Yup, I had that too about a week ago from someone ringing up my purchases. She said she’d rather have a few days off of paid leave.
      
      When I then told her that it was costing us a mountain of debt that will take her (and her kids if she ever has some) a generation to pay off she was less than happy.
      
      I left her with this: What we’ve done so far is going to effectively double your rent for the next 20 years. If you get more time off that’s just going to increase.
      
      I don’t think she likes me any more.
      
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      October 30, 2021 9:20am
      - Taieri
        
        She said she’d rather have a few days off of paid leave.
        ————–
        
        This attitude will not change until the proverbial hits the fan, i.e. what’s still left of the real economy collapses completely. While there’s never a shortage of ink for the money printing presses, if we stop producing there’ll be nothing to consume. But try to explain this to the people who believe that food grows on the supermarket shelves.
        
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        October 30, 2021 9:34am
      - Benedict Yu
        
        Yep. During winter someone told me that she liked the pandemic because all the money printing has made her house soar in value. And she can go skiing without all the pesky overseas tourists on the slopes.
        
        No thought to the tourist businesses going broke or the generation now priced out of home ownership.
        
        The emergence of such selfishness is down to this government. And we have a long way to go.
        
        I agree it will take the collapse of the real economy and a major devaluation to wake people up.
        
        I remember talking to a woman from Greece who had moved to New Zealand about the same time as me. She said that just prior to the Greece economic crisis everyone thought things were great. But the government kept everything going with borrowed money. She said it all changed one morning when she went to the bank to get some cash and discovered that the ATM was not working. Then she discovered that no ATMs at any bank were working. The money had literally run out.
        
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        October 30, 2021 9:48am
      - Ed Snack
        
        Have to say that it was an unexpected benefit that the Ruapehu slopes were a lot emptier than usual late this year without any Aucklanders in attendance. I would hardly rejoice at at it generally, but at the time it was a pleasant experience to have only 10 minute lift queues at the worst, less when the whole mountain was open.
        
        Be grateful for small mercies was the attitude, while also feeling sorry for those stranded away from their winter exercise fix.
        
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        October 30, 2021 11:21am
    - Mr_Blobby
      
      Probably works for the government.
      
      Some people have been much better off financially not working.
      
      Not sure if some are even interested in going back to work.
      
      I have been considering not going back myself.
      
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      October 30, 2021 9:23am
      - artemisia
        
        Folk with a few assets have done very well since September 2017. Some will decide to liquidate a little and live happy and relaxed off those tax free gains.
        
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        October 30, 2021 11:05am
- ClanMcleod
  
  I’d love to read it but it’s paywalled and I cannot bring myself to contribute a single cent to that rag purporting to be a news outlet. I can fully imagine the content though, it’s been apparent for a while now that the Ardern machine is breaking down. You can polish a turd so many times before it eventually crumbles.
  
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  October 30, 2021 8:46am
  - sooty
    
    Arh, but if you chrome plate the turd.
    You can polish it to your hearts content!
    
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    October 30, 2021 9:14am
- Bobba Fret
  
  So good to read Steven Joyce and a sensible article. Everyone should be able to read it, it should not be pay walled. Imagine having Joyce as the Covid minister and Bill English as finance minister to get us through this. Cant help but think how much better life would be.
  
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  October 30, 2021 9:56am
  - Paulus
    
    But the Herald is paid to withhold anything detrimental to the payers wishes so pay wall it !
    Easy way.
    
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    October 30, 2021 10:33am
  - mawm
    
    One has to question whether the Nats would have handled the crisis any differently going by the current utterances from Collins. Doing the same as Ardern but better is not what is needed.
    
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    October 30, 2021 12:39pm
  - Nickc2
    
    Throw Dr. Shane Reti into that mix, problem fixed.
    What effin Covid-19-D drama?
    Move over Labour kids, you’re past your use-by date!
    
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    October 30, 2021 1:20pm
artemisia

Steven Joyce in the Herald today.

The sound of Labour’s wheels coming off

Paywalled but here is the net of it – ”Taking the voters for fools is not a sustainable strategy”.
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October 30, 2021 8:25am
- ClanMcleod
  
  It was only a matter of time. Isn’t experience a wonderful thing? That’s why we so many excellent adages.
  “You can fool some of the people some of the time…..”
  
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  October 30, 2021 8:48am
  - All_on_Red
    
    The problem is that the Tyranny of Tiny Minds which are ruling us are managing to fool quite a few people for quite some time.
    We should have been rid of them last time.
    
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    October 30, 2021 9:05am
- Nickc2
  
  Can’t disagree with that!
  
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  October 30, 2021 9:30am
Tomtoddy

James Shaw heads to Glasgow with a whole bunch of reports from both govt and private sources that predict a catastrophic future for our climate. Over 90% of them have used an extreme scenario – RCP8.5 – as the basis for their predictions.

The RCP8.5 scenario includes several outrageous features. For example, it is based on the building of 33,000 new coal fired power stations. There are only 6,600 in existence. Even China, with a couple of hundred under construction is never in a million years going to get near 33,000.

Yet on that utterly irrational and impossible presumption Shaw will undertake in Glasgow to slash 15% of our dairy and meat production undermining the economy even further. We need our collective head looking at urgently.
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October 30, 2021 8:28am
- Benedict Yu
  
  If we decrease dairy exports by 15 percent, other producers will fill that gap. No change in global emissions. It is nonsensical. It is like we are committing economic suicide while the rest of the world laughs at us.
  
  There is this other thing that gets almost no coverage. The Government has a primary sector strategy.
  
  https://www.mpi.govt.nz/about-mpi/our-work/fit-for-a-better-world-accelerating-our-economic-potential/
  
  And that strategy commits the government to a target of INCREASING primary sector exports by $44 billion by 2030. I must be one of the few people who have read this document. And I can report that having done so I am no wiser about how the government is going to increase primary sector exports by $44 billion.
  
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  October 30, 2021 8:40am
  - notreadyet
    
    Seems covid opportunity has superceeded that
    
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    October 30, 2021 8:50am
  - cmm
    
    BY: Of course the government never increases exports. They just claim the work of the private sector.
    
    It is also easy enough to make predictions and promises for the future. By 2030 most of the senior people who’s heads should roll are going to be retired or voted out or whatever.
    
    I suppose that some increase can be made by going further up the food chain. For example, exporting cheese instead of milk and through going for higher value exports rather than commodity (eg. organic vs non-organic).
    
    Of course it’s a lot easier to make a few power points about the ideas than to actually deliver on them.
    
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    October 30, 2021 9:11am
    - Benedict Yu
      
      Yeah but if someone exports some cheese it will be despite the government, not because of it.
      
      At the end of the day, New Zealand exports milk powder because we are good at it. There are some decent New Zealand cheeses but to be honest they rarely match the quality, variety and volumes of French and Swiss cheeses. You have thousands of family based businesses that have been making the same cheese for 300 years. For the same reason there is not a single New Zealand sparkling wine that comes close to even mid quality champagne.
      
      Yes the Government’s strategy is ALL about moving up the value chain. But it is horribly vague on how that will be achieved. And if it is achieved it will not be down to the government. All the government has done is pour costs on the sector.
      
      Answer this. How many farmers out there are saying “Hey I just read the Government’s plan to increase primary sector exports. It is genius. We are going to be rich”? ?
      
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      October 30, 2021 9:33am
  - Ed Snack
    
    Actually probably overall increase emissions as NZ is already the lowest emissions dairy producer per kg of output.
    
    But you need to realise that actually reducing emissions in real terms is not the intent, punishing the “west” for being efficient producers is. The intent is to radically redistribute “wealth” and since the lower producers cannot easily be uplifted, the high producers must be brought down.
    
    Equality comrade, is the call ! Even if only equality of misery.
    
    Note: does not apply if you are member of climate elite, then you must remain so wealthy and privileged o you can continue to direct affairs to produce said equality amongst others.
    
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    October 30, 2021 11:25am
    - Bridgenag
      
      Does anyone factor in the pollution from China and India and the fires etc from Australia
      
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      October 30, 2021 12:59pm
    - GJM
      
      If they were honest, the carbon emissions would be applied to the consumer, not producer. Of course, this would penalize China and India, but it would encourage efficient sourcing and use of resources.
      To put it into context, the 30,000 NZ dairy farmers feed 40m people, and over 98% of NZ dairy production is exported, yet we are penalized for that 98%, despite being efficient. Other countries export, but the domestic proportion is much higher.
      
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      October 30, 2021 5:13pm
- Ruawai
  
  Is Shaun Hendy now making the climate predictions??
  
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  October 30, 2021 8:43am
  - westernScientest
    
    he has been for years, even wrote a book on it
    
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    October 30, 2021 8:54am
  - cmm
    
    He has been, for a long time.
    
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    October 30, 2021 9:05am
    - Paulus Gnome
      
      Same degree of success as his covid modelling?
      
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      October 30, 2021 9:18am
      - cmm
        
        It keeps his trough going and agrees with his activism so of course it is successful.
        
        Being one of the “Maori science” proponents, he really has no interest in science per se.
        
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        October 30, 2021 9:38am
  - kowtow
    
    The idiots at the central bank too .
    
    https://www.interest.co.nz/banking/112910/reserve-bank-aims-develop-strong-understanding-impacts-climate-change-could-have-its
    
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    October 30, 2021 9:29am
- cmm
  
  I knew there was a thumb on the scale, but not that bad. Geez!
  
  World electricity supply is incredibly hard to really measure because some total up all the name plate values which is meaningless because solar and wind only generate a few % of their name plate capacity and that varies from area to area.
  
  World population in areas which use a lot of energy are decreasing. Population is still increasing in places less blessed with technology and where energy usage is very low (Africa, and the Stans). Therefore it is not surprising that total electrical demand in the world is only expected to go up by a quarter or so by 2050.
  
  To see how skewed it is, consider that the whole of Africa has approx 170GW of generation – really only 80 when you pull out the non-dispatchable sources and consider that approx 50% of the plant is broken down. That is an average of 75W per person and even South Africa is only 400W/person (NZ is 2000W/person).
  
  33,000 new coal stations is a completely ridiculous scenario even if they’re talking about replacing all the existing generation of all kinds in that number. That would provide 10x what the current generation is from all sources.
  
  Even if we were to replace all trucks and cars with EVs it is hard to see that we’d get anywhere close to using that.
  
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  October 30, 2021 9:05am
  - Tomtoddy
    
    See Roger Pielke’s work at WUWT. He confirms most of the world uses RCP8.5 and that the scenario involves the most outlandish assumptions.
    
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    October 30, 2021 9:35am
- crikey
  
  Tomtoddy: “We need our collective head looking at urgently”.
  No, we need Shaw’s head looking at urgently. Maybe he could look for a job somewhere else while he’s in Glasgow.
  
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  October 30, 2021 11:07am
- I remember when
  
  Shaw doesn’t need to slash our meat and dairy production by 15% – that is one of the reasons for the nationalisation of ‘3 Waters.’
  Once you have government control of ‘waters’ you can reduce dairy production simply by enforcing nutrification levels.
  The fact that despite years of research by universities, etc, data is at best sketchy will be irrelevant.
  Another one of those areas where everyone knows what the problem is so no explanation is needed.
  Do we really think that 6 million dairy cows in New Zealand are the reason for ‘climate change.’
  
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  October 30, 2021 11:51am
  - Bridgenag
    
    Sadly that is what they are selling to the sheepies
    
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    October 30, 2021 1:06pm
kowtow

Stuffed was peddling climate porn fear yesterday over a “sinking” island in Chesapeake Bay , stuffed full of conservative Christian Trumpers .

The island is “sinking” but not as per the propaganda due to climate crisis rising sea levels , but due to subsidence relating to underlying geology and glacial rebound due to the end of the ice age .

The propagandists who wrote the piece will have known that but didn’t mention it.

Follow the science ?

If the climate emergency is so real , why do its proponents consistently hide the truth behind their presentations of doom and gloom?

https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/climate-news/300441330/the-trumploving-climatesceptic-island-sinking-into-the-sea
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October 30, 2021 8:29am
- Benedict Yu
  
  Yes I read that and had a laugh.
  
  But it is terrifying young people. I reported last week that two 20 something public servants told me that climate change was the single biggest stressor in their lives. I was on a zoom call so I quickly muted my microphone so they did not hear me laughing.
  
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  October 30, 2021 9:03am
  - Inandout
    
    BY, which is probably why they are public servants, spoon fed by Jacinda’s regime and despite lockdowns never suffer a salary cut. A protected species.
    
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    October 30, 2021 9:27am
  - kowtow
    
    Public servants ?
    
    You’d think they had the education and gumption to do some research themselves or do they spend all their spare time on playstation or practicing poi / haka ……and how to mangle New Zealand place names.
    
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    October 30, 2021 9:32am
  - Taieri
    
    How dare you!!!
    
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    October 30, 2021 9:36am
    - Bridgenag
      
      Do you think the 16 % might pay for their own Tv stations some time soon?
      
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      October 30, 2021 1:07pm
- Scott
  
  Yes I am reminded of the people who have predicted the end of the world. Over the years some Christians have believed that they know when the world will end. But it still hasn’t happened. And they are ridiculed for it.
  
  But the secular social justice warriors predict the end of the world because of climate change. And they are lauded for it.
  
  Climate change is really the new religion. It gives purpose to lives that otherwise have no meaning. What am I doing with my life? I know, I am saving the world by combating climate change.
  
  It is a religion that uses fear to justify virtually destroying whole economies. Scott Morrison in Australia has signed up to the whole zero carbon thing by 2050. Absolutely ridiculous for a so-called conservative Prime Minister.
  
  And our Prime Minister is on to climate change boots and all. When she is not saving us all from Covid.
  
  It’s a religion that is designed to humble the Western civilisation countries and bring up Third World countries. Behind it is socialism and the desire to overturn everything in search of a utopia sometime in the future.
  
  It won’t work, ever.
  
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  October 30, 2021 9:16am
info@cruzpro.com

Global warming would be bad for a number of already warm countries such as the middle East, S. America and Africa.

A few degrees increase would not be so bad for New Zealand and other cooler nations. Even if there was a 5 degree increase New Zealand would still be cooler than most of the S. Pacific islands currently.

I’m not saying we want this to happen, but New Zealand could actually benefit if it does.
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October 30, 2021 8:36am
- Benedict Yu
  
  Yeah nah 5 degrees would be catastrophic. The reason is that it the mean temperature was 5 degrees higher the extremes would be way higher.
  
  Think of it like this. If you asked someone.. “During the last glacial maximum 10,000 years ago, New Zealand was covered in glaciers and the Marlborough Sounds was a river valley. How much colder was it?” Most people would say 20, 30, 40 degrees colder.
  
  During the last glacial maximum the mean global temperature was 7.8 degrees colder than today.
  
  https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-science-iceage/how-low-did-it-go-scientists-calculate-earths-ice-age-temperatures-idUKKBN25M2MU
  
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  October 30, 2021 9:08am
  - All_on_Red
    
    Its not going to increase by 5C.
    So far we are tracking at around 1C per Century (+ or – a bit)
    
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    October 30, 2021 9:13am
    - Benedict Yu
      
      Yes I am aware.
      
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      October 30, 2021 9:17am
    - Taieri
      
      Question 1.
      
      How accurate are proxy measurements of the past temperatures in comparison to the actual temperatures measured with modern devices today?
      
      Question 2.
      
      What is, or should be an optimal temperature?
      
      Question 3.
      
      Climate is a regional, not a global phenomenon. What is the point in measuring global “average” temperature then?
      
      Question 4.
      
      Atmospheric pressure is an important element of a climate. Can an ‘average” global atmospheric pressure be measured?
      
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      October 30, 2021 9:42am
    - Ed Snack
      
      Remember that the primary way that average temperatures are supposed to increase due to “Global Warming” is in a decrease in the diurnal variation. So primarily warmer lows at night and not hotter days although as temperatures are highly non-random hotter nights does lead to some increase in daytime temperatures.
      
      So if a place has high low averages of say 30 and 15 degrees, a 5 degree increase would be to 31 and 19 say. And anywhere by the ocean or large lake has a naturally limited maximum due to evaporative cooling, some places like Darwin are pretty close to that limit already.
      
      In at least some ways, these changes will save lives, at this stage far, far more people die from cold than heat, and increasing nighttime temperatures will ameliorate that.
      
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      October 30, 2021 11:31am
- All_on_Red
  
  Fortunately its warming quite gradually and I agree benefits have come from that.
  Better to be warmer than colder.
  More CO2 has certainly increased Greening of the Earth as well- especially in dry places like India and Africa. Food production is up.
  
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  October 30, 2021 9:11am
- cmm
  
  “Global warming would be bad for a number of already warm countries such as the middle East, S. America and Africa. ”
  
  Perhaps, but the extra CO2 in the atmosphere is actually good for those places and is leading to improved greening of the desert areas etc.
  
  Plants need to eat CO2. They do this by absorbing CO2 during photosynthesis. This is done through their stomata (tiny pores) on their leaves which can open and close with guard cells.
  
  Opening stomata also bypassing the waxy coating of the leaves allowing water vapour out (transpiration).
  
  When there is lower CO2, more stoamata must open to admit CO2 and more water vapour is lost. When there is more CO2 then less stomata need to be opened and more water is retained.
  
  Therefore higher CO2 levels are beneficial to the plants – particularly those in dry areas. This has lead to an increase in plant growth in marginal areas.
  
  This can only benefit the bush and agricultural output of Africa, Middle East etc
  
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  October 30, 2021 9:31am
  - Nickc2
    
    Exactly! I learnt this in school. However, I didn’t learn about Critical Race Theory, Man-Made Global Warming or Gender Fluidity.
    I still consider my education was better than that currently being force-fed to our kids kids.
    
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    October 30, 2021 9:42am
G152

At some stage the greens will find that it takes tractors, milking plant and dairy factories to run an agrarian society.
Will it be before they completely ruin the underlying technology upon which NZ depends ?
Or, more likely, after…..
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October 30, 2021 8:41am
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Facebook name – META.
Must Elect Trump Again.
Karma is a bitch
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October 30, 2021 8:44am
- Inandout
  
  SO, on the subject of Trump, or more fittingly TDS, poor sad old Joe attempted to support Gov. McAuliffe’s re-election by mentioning the former President over 20 times. The look on McAuliffe’s strained face tells it all, even behind the clapping.
  https://nypost.com/2021/10/26/biden-says-trump-24-times-in-virginia-stump-for-mcauliffe/
  
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  October 30, 2021 9:33am
  - Nickc2
    
    I have it on good authority that not all Americans are as stupid as Biden, Pelosi, and Schumer. I live in hope.
    
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    October 30, 2021 9:49am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Good ad for Trump – not that he needs it. He is coming back and they know it.
    #Trump 2024 (maybe 2022?)
    
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    October 30, 2021 9:49am
    - All_on_Red
      
      I hope he doesn’t run. But his surrogate in Ron De Santis does.
      And Trump backs him. That way the media cant make it all about Trump
      
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      October 30, 2021 10:50am
      - Nickc2
        
        Not a bad idea.
        
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        October 30, 2021 1:23pm
  - All_on_Red
    
    He’s doing that to try to energise the Dem voters with some good old Orange Man Bad hate.
    Trump has actually stayed away. Which was smart.
    They sent Mike Pence instead who cleverly pushed the dispute parents are having about education.
    That’s what’ s hurting McAuliffe.
    
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    October 30, 2021 10:49am
    - All_on_Red
      
      McAuliffe is getting desperate and the dirty tricks are flowing now.
      Caught badly!!!
      https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/matt-margolis/2021/10/29/tiki-torch-wielding-virginia-dems-caught-faking-white-supremacist-photo-op-to-smear-glenn-youngkin-n1528014
      
      I had to laugh at his support for the Fake Governor of Georgia Stacey Abrams. She is so special that one.
      
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      October 30, 2021 11:26am
      - Ed Snack
        
        Indeed, if one must run a fake op like that, it does pay NOT to use one’s own staff to actually attend that op and be identified.
        
        Of course they are denying it all so far, but they must be really desperate to try this one. They will of course keep denying it until after the election and the media will do their very best to suppress the story.
        
        In all McAuliffe has to do is make sure his team isn’t quite so inept at manufacturing votes that they get caught. He’ll eventually get the most votes and win, it is just a matter of how long it will take the Democrats to create those votes and “find” them so they will get counted. Counting only legitimate votes is so last century ! And McAuliffe has already retained Marc Elias, cheater in chief lawyer to the Democrats. Though he will have to hope that Elias is free to represent him when needed, and not rather too enmeshed in the Durham investigation.
        
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        October 30, 2021 11:37am
Yvette

For covid relief – 3 waters – drip fed

One small paragraph among the quagmire reported on 3 Waters –

A key part of the reforms is what’s called ‘balance sheet separation’. It means that while the water entities will be owned by councils, they will be financially independent, so the financial position of councils will have no effect on the financial position of the entities, and vice versa.
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2021/10/the-reason-jacinda-ardern-nanaia-mahuta-think-three-waters-will-be-a-success.html

• So, if councils are separated from managing all their present water facilities, will ratepayers receive lesser rates considering what the councils will no longer levy to provide for them?

• Where then will Entity finance come from – a charge to each homeowner from the Entities, taxes, or borrowing that will land on present grand-children when they are older, along I guess with paying the debt on covid measures – which is another debt of billions.

• The remedies to water infrastructure is still going to not change, whether councils or Entities contract solutions, but Mahuta says councils can not afford such payments, so how will Entities deliver the same services any cheaper without eventually charging the end user?

• And what of the vast expense implied in – “Missing this crucial ‘fourth water’ – the source water – seems odd. I [Dr Mike Joy, Senior Researcher, Institute for Governance and Policy Studies, Victoria University of Wellington] note that the summary report on the workshops held for the Three Waters Reform Programme, released in March 2021, showed that in polls held during the workshop, taking a catchment view of water ranked as the second most important objective by attendees.
“Finally, I could find no mention of one of the emerging issues for New Zealand, that is nitrogen contamination of drinking water. There was no mention of it, nor just how expensive it is to remove nitrate from water.”

Under the headline: National MP Nicola Willis uses councillor’s rebuke of ‘deceitful, lying’ Government to illustrate Three Waters backlash, Newshub reports: To illustrate backlash to Three Waters, National MP Nicola Willis held up the front page of a newspaper in Parliament, which included a quote describing the Government as “deceitful”. [1]

But perhaps captured by the “fourth estate become the fifth column strategy”, or just old fashioned “political correctness”, Newshub dare not print the actual Wairarapa Times-Age quote –
“A deceitful pack of lying bastards”

Masterton councillor Tina Nixon said the government had not acted in good faith and called them “a deceitful, lying pack of bastards”.
“We understood that we would have a chance to work through the issues with our communities and then decide to support reforms or not.
“This whole proposal is a tsunami of badly-framed policy and ineffective and convoluted governance arrangements.” [2]

[1] https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2021/10/national-mp-nicola-willis-uses-councillor-s-rebuke-of-deceitful-lying-government-to-illustrate-three-waters-backlash.html
accompanying video – 2 minutes 35 seconds in – stamped with Parliamentary emblem.
[2] https://times-age.co.nz/three-waters-plan-boils-over-at-council/
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October 30, 2021 8:51am
ClanMcleod

I know I’m getting over the constant statistical analysis, but this is a good piece on the increase in covid among the vaccinated. Specifically pointing out the astonishing mental gymnastics being employed to try and explain why it can’t be true. They must be exhausted. Amazing how during the first year of this event the same in depth analysis wasn’t done when it came to driving the covid narrative. If it sniffed of covid then it was covid and don’t dare suggest there might be something else involved.
The hypocrisy would be annoying except it is quite funny watching the floundering from these people as they scramble to explain away the obvious. No doubt we have many months of this ahead, particularly in NZ under the single source of truth. Will she get some extra modelers in to help with the load?

https://eugyppius.substack.com/p/every-week-it-gets-worse-the-latest?utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&utm_source=
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October 30, 2021 8:57am
- MCos
  
  According to those tables, as far as I can tell, a lot more vaccinated people test positive for covid-19, but don’t get particularly ill.
  Suits me.
  
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  October 30, 2021 9:15am
  - mawm
    
    It’s good to know that all those vaxxed patients dying from covid are not particularly ill.
    
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    October 30, 2021 12:54pm
- I remember when
  
  How much of the official response in every country is driven by the terms of their contracts with the vaccine suppliers.
  What affect does the official information released have on the amount and speed of vaccine supply to them..
  Do the drug companies control the conversation by supply and speed of vaccine delivery.
  
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  October 30, 2021 9:40am
- krazykiwi
  
  You beat me to posting on this. I note that PHE have stopped publishing the chart, and now augment the raw data tables with logic torturing ‘explanations’ of why so many more vaxxed get infected than do unvaxxed. It can’t be long before these datasets are completely withdrawn as they kryptonite to the curated narrative.
  
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  October 30, 2021 1:35pm
hullkiwi

From the book of you learn something every day.

Last night, listening to the Working Group on Magic with Adrian Grant & Martn Bradbury.

When discussing the 3 Waters proposition, Bradbury proudly said, …”small government is out, people want big government. Big government solves what people see as problems.”

There you have it, in 2 sentences Jax and her mates are throwing out the reforms of the 1980s and 1990s, and reverting NZ back to the 1970s. I see it at work, where the answer of the bureaucrats is to “own” the infrastructure and vehicles that comprise the PT network. The fact they haven’t a clue to run it or manage the staff is irrelevant.

For Bradbury and the Labour trolls, how well do you remember the shambles of post War NZ 1945 to 1984. NZ was a basket case with big government and all key economic indicators going in the wrong direction. More state is not what NZ needs!
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October 30, 2021 9:05am
- nathie
  
  The other irony is those National 1975 election campaigns showing Labour turning NZ “red” by buying up and controlling industry etc.
  
  The irony is, the leftie luuvies continue to mock National’s ads to this day, but isn’t that what is happening with the likes of 3 Waters (and He Puapua) as Labour seeks to control and redistribute assets to their supporters?
  
  If so, Labour 2021 are indeed appearing to revisit the 1970’s and are trying to resurrect the same old themes and ideas, but with a “partnership” outcome …
  
  https://teara.govt.nz/en/interactive/35759/dancing-cossacks-1975
  
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  October 30, 2021 10:14am
kevn

@clan… Good stuff. Thank you.
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October 30, 2021 9:11am
TS Child

I have just gotten off the phone with yet another terrified person asking questions about the vaccine. Not an anti-vaxxer, just an ordinary NZ citizen struggling to do their best and frozen by fear and with a new mistrust of authority. Last week i spoke with another person – this one desperate for everyone to vaccinate, by force if need be. Also driven by fear, so scared in fact that they were practically vibrating on the spot. Two remarkably similar, decent people, two different responses to terror. Same source. This is what this ‘kind and transparent’ government is doing to the ordinary folk in New Zealand. Never before have I felt such rage, disgust and despair at a government. it’s one thing to have stupid politics, it’s another thing altogether when the government actually hurts people on such a visceral level.
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October 30, 2021 9:13am
Benedict Yu

This is a great video. Young articulate Maori guy gives both barrels to Jacinda.

https://asianinvasion2019.blogspot.com/2021/10/jacinda-ardern-as-most-divisive-leader.html
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October 30, 2021 9:16am
- fightingtemeraire
  
  Bravo Zulu that man!!!!
  
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  October 30, 2021 9:20am
  - Nickc2
    
    I say well done too.
    
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    October 30, 2021 10:04am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Jaspinda shitting in her own nest and does not even know. Let it continue
  
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  October 30, 2021 9:39am
Truman lodge

See on stuffed this morning the govt is now unsure on the Auckland border for xmas. Definitely 2 jabs and negative test requirements to pass through. That’s going to look like a migrant caravan at the US Mexico border!!!

Vaxinda said we need to protect the rest of the country and the rest of Nz said we need more time to get vaxxed and we want to protect our community and loved ones.

Fcuk me!!! So the rest can take their sweet ass time to get jabbed but us Aucklanders for months now have been badgered to get our act together??? Auckland will be open by early December with bars and cafes and cinemas etc. But it’s highly likely we won’t be allowed to leave. And opening up will be the carrot Vaxinda uses to appease us for not being allowed to leave for Xmas.

But even if we can leave..only the hardcore and desperate will line up for 12 hours sitting in their cars.
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October 30, 2021 9:18am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  You know she is a compulsive liar right?
  
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  October 30, 2021 9:41am
- Nickc2
  
  I plan to sail to the Bay of Islands for Christmas. How are Cindy’s Henchmen going to handle that checking requirement? Am I reqd to carry proof of Negative Testing on my boat?
  
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  October 30, 2021 10:10am
  - Bridgenag
    
    Just put patches on
    
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    October 30, 2021 1:09pm
- Inthe09
  
  They must be quietly hoping the virus is well spread by Christmas such that there is no point stoping Aucklanders travelling. There will still be the Iwi roadblocks of course, which have the potential to be a nasty flashpoint.
  
  Imagine being the PM who stopped not just Aucklanders, but people right across the country with family in Auckland from seeing them at Christmas. I’m pretty sure she said Aucklanders would ‘Absolutely’ be able to travel for Christmas at that press conference. You can be sure they don’t have a clue how to deliver on that commitment though.
  
  Watch the pressure on her grow over the coming weeks – and the media who’ve already started the groundwork for walking back that commitment.
  
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  October 30, 2021 2:20pm
CAKE FACE1

Why Auckland is still in lockdown is quite difficult to understand, until you appreciate one important thing.

The only way the lockdown becomes logical is by realising that Cindy the Cruel is psychopathic.

Schadenfreude is pleasure derived from other peoples misfortune. Imagine how much sweeter Cindy’s life now is in Wellington, knowing that she is personally responsible for shafting over one million Aucklanders.

For over ten weeks, Cindy will have been walking around with the HUGE toothy grin, delighted that she has caused so much anguish and suffering for the good people of Auckland.

Cindy the Cruel is power crazed, and loves bullying people. It is clear that she is loving life.

The more miserable New Zealand gets, the happier Cindy the Cruel becomes. She is psycho.
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October 30, 2021 9:18am
- Cinematic
  
  Along with a few of her health professional entourage.
  
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  October 30, 2021 9:44am
Maggie Pie

TRENDING

Professor Ferguson only joined Twitter earlier this year…
but he’s well worth following 😀

https://twitter.com/ProfessorFergu1/status/1452388978401943559
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October 30, 2021 9:20am
I remember when

The Project:
Jesse Mulligan, “Where in the world would you rather live?”
Making the case for New Zealand with only 6 deaths per million against UK 2051 and US 2290.
Except that is no longer the right answer as it is now historical.
Would we rather live in a country that because of the low deaths (and the constant fear mongering) is still in fear of covid.
Or, would we rather live in countries like UK, Denmark, the Netherlands or Sweden that have experienced and are learning to live with covid.
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October 30, 2021 9:24am
- Cinematic
  
  A good friend of mine made that statement to me last week ‘rather be in NZ blah blah’.
  
  I pointed out basically the entire world has moved on and that I’d happily be overseas. The bizarre thing was he had to pull google out to confirm this was the case!
  
  He’s pretty sulky now. Almost sorry I burst his bubble.
  
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  October 30, 2021 9:48am
- emmess
  
  I rather be in Florida where nobody is dying
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4pFv-xCAlo
  
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  October 30, 2021 10:02am
- Prince
  
  Potential for a new Tourism theme here.
  Ditch ‘100% Pure’, bring on
  ‘Aotearoa – the Motu where you never die.’
  
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  October 30, 2021 10:09am
Clownworld

Benedict, thanks for sharing. Shocked not so much, a little surprised they leaked a little truth. That will simply be to ensure when they approve it NZ will lead the way in
a) signalling we in F.C.N.Z (Formerly known Commonwealth NZ. Jab the greatest % of a population than anyone else
b) fufill our debt commitments to Pfizer by buy, buy, buy more.
c) Use by dates coming up so need more little arms to jab.

The decision makers cabinet and the PM and the UN implanted agent despite the framing of the article will do as they want to keep control. They will act out of abiding caution and in tilty head fashion or in new yep we have two classes of citizens in NZ will go ahead and don’t be shocked when by March next year jabs for 6months plus.

NZ has form for virtual signalling our hard , slow and cruel approach.

MIQ
Our MIQ longest quarantine period in the world. PCR tests for babies 6mths up for MIQ. The next lowest is generally 2 or 12 in some cases 18 years of age.

PCR
PCR cycles at 45 compared to e.g US 28 (Cdc reccomends if vaccinated )to 35 to 40 for ( cdc unvaccinated). No doubt we will see something similar in NZ to add to the duplicitious figures of higher rate of “positive” “cases” for the yellow star lepers as opposed to the compliant hoi polloi.

Rekoscience does 40 cycles out of interest. Wait till govt takes then over. Cycles will change no doubt when orders are given.

Lockdowns
1 case of delta closed whole country. World tecord leaders. Hard and cruel.

Elimination
Still pursued in govt immaginations. Think elimination of those that choose freely to not get the jab will be the final step. It can’t happen?

Draconian law
As for more draconian enforcement the traps are being set,laws being changed, rights taken away forever.
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October 30, 2021 9:25am
- Mrs_Right
  
  Even if we reach 90%, I think Jacinda will be highly disappointed with the lack of praise/care from the rest of the world.
  
  New Zealand is about 18 months behind with Covid. Most of the world has already realised that the vaccine isn’t the silver bullet they were hoping for. (Although the NZ government and MSM seem to behave like it is for whatever reason). The vaccinated are getting sick at high rates. Israel was the first country to fully vaccinate a majority of its citizens against Covid. Now it has one of the world’s highest daily infection rates.
  
  What will matter is the overall outcome from this not the vaccination %.
  
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  October 30, 2021 9:55am
lazza

Those, (including initially “moi”), holding “anti-water amalgamation views” might usefully read Jane Clifton in this week’s NZ Listener and consider the other side of the centime.

Jane makes these telling points:
Even some well funded Councils have failed to manage water assets well;
Some Councils are being relieved not only of their water assets but for many this relief extends to Council water-related liabilities both current and contingent, that are far beyond their existing financial wriggle room.
The 3 Waters issues to date, are not registering on political public opinion polls. Council Mayors and Elected Members currently are not exposed to any significant risk (another matter for the government maybe?) and they cannot be relied upon to stoutly defend their corner.
Objecter’s may be over-romanticising the problems-proposal .
Jane poses this existential question.

” How many citizens have or expect to have any influence over local sewerage or river cleanliness investment?. Most are agnostic as to the whos, hows and wheres”.

Soooo … some more light please … less heat OK?
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October 30, 2021 9:35am
- cmm
  
  ” Even some well funded Councils have failed to manage water assets well”
  
  So some have failed to manage it well, but is that anywhere near the level of failure that is possible – and likely – under 3W? Where’s the evidence that a certralised single body would do it
  better? Looking at Kiwibuild, Auckland rail and other goverment projects it is clear that they are likely to break things rather than fix things.
  
  “Objecter’s may be over-romanticising the problems-proposal .”
  
  If the author of this rot had ever spent a few weeks without running water, or in a place where there is raw sewage running in the streets, they’d know that there is more to it than “romance”.
  
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  October 30, 2021 9:53am
  - lazza
    
    Hey cmm and others.
    
    I purposefully said NOTHING about the useless government’s centralisation-socialist 3W scheme- agenda. (It stinks incidentally) .
    
    That! is a horse of very different feathers.
    
    Roll on the private enterprise element entering into 3 W … asap … but.
    
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    October 30, 2021 11:48am
    - Jack5
      
      ? Lazza, are you trying to sabotage the campaign to block Three Waters?
      
      Like by putting up a diversion suggesting that if not Three Waters, it will be privatisation of water?
      
      Someone who promotes something from the Leftie-Listener, especially when it’s an article by Trevor Mallard’s wife, sincerely promotes privatisation of water supplies? C’mon.
      
      Three Waters is communist-centralism and neo-apartheid.
      
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      October 30, 2021 1:14pm
    - Paulus
      
      Waiting for the Maori Name for 3W.
      
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      October 30, 2021 1:19pm
- Alan Wilkinson
  
  The Government imposes one size fits all rules on water management. Then when it doesn’t fit it imposes one bureaucracy to manage all waters.
  
  In real life the same mismatches on scale and solutions still exist which will now be papered over by waste, inefficiency and unaccountability.
  
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  October 30, 2021 10:12am
  - Alan Wilkinson
    
    Question, since Maori will have 50% control of the water that falls on our land will they contribute 50% of our Rates?
    
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    October 30, 2021 10:20am
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      Moari should also fork out for flood damage if it is 50% their water.
      Racist screams in 3, 2, 1
      
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      October 30, 2021 11:18am
      - Jack5
        
        Lazza refers to himself/herself as “moi” and to Clifton, after the first mention, as “Jane”.
        
        Mmmm.
        
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        October 30, 2021 11:28am
      - Bridgenag
        
        What about those of us collecting our own water….Will there be water police with Eftpos machines on the ready
        
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        October 30, 2021 1:11pm
- Taieri
  
  Even some well funded Councils have failed to manage water assets well
  —————–
  
  Four centralized water authorities will do it better? Why?
  
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  October 30, 2021 10:28am
- Gravelroad
  
  Ok Lazza – I understand that Jane Clifton is also Mrs Trevor Mallard.
  That would put a different perspective of anything she might wish to tell us about?
  Or is it a different Jane Clifton?
  @onthepayroll
  
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  October 30, 2021 10:42am
  - 70andstilllearning
    
    Shoosh Grav – you weren’t meant to point that out to laz. (or anyone else).
    
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    October 30, 2021 10:53am
  - Prince
    
    Being Mallard’s partner shouldn’t affect how we view Clifton as a journalist.
    However it does speak volumes about her judgement.
    
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    October 30, 2021 5:03pm
oldfella

This will amazed many on KB, but…
JOE BIDEN RATED 6TH BEST PRESIDENT IN US HISTORY!! WHAT A SHOCK!!
I know you will find this hard to believe, but from a total of 46 US Presidents Biden is rated as the 6th best. The Texas A&M’s Public Relations Office released this statement: “After just 7 months in office, Americans have rated President Biden the 6th best President ever.”
These are the Details on the Ratings, according to Texas A&M :
1. Washington and Lincoln first,
2. Twenty-four presidents tied for second,
3. Seventeen other presidents tied for third,
4. Jimmy Carter came in fourth,
5. Barack Hussein Obama came in fifth, and
6. Joe Biden came in sixth.
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October 30, 2021 10:01am
- Biscuit
  
  Brilliant, oldfella…
  
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  October 30, 2021 11:11am
- mawm
  
  Borrowed.
  
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  October 30, 2021 1:09pm
- miltonF
  
  Haha the math….
  
  24 + 17 + 5 = 46
  
  So in reality 46th most popular out of 46 presidents…
  
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  October 30, 2021 1:59pm
Hollyfield

Grant Robertson talking to Mike Hosking on Tuesday about the $120 million given to iwi groups to support vaccination: we have to give funding to local Maori groups to reach people. Doing it centrally doesn’t work, you need things handled locally. Government doesn’t know what is needed locally.
Entire Government: local councils can’t handle water, it has to be done centrally.
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October 30, 2021 10:01am
- DeepBlue
  
  Health, polytechs also
  
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  October 30, 2021 1:34pm
- KH
  
  800K Maori in NZ. $120 million to Maori providers to catch up the say 300K laggards.
  So $400 each vax.
  No wonder those providers are telling us we need them.
  
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  October 30, 2021 4:55pm
- Prince
  
  Maori have a word for the exalted sense of family brotherhood they have…
  Whanaungatanga : relationship, kinship and a sense of family connection. It is created through shared experiences and working together and provides people with a sense of belonging. It comes with rights and obligations, which serve to strengthen each member of that whānau or group.
  
  Strange that it takes $M of Govt funding to generate this.
  
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  October 30, 2021 5:01pm
Maggie Pie

Thinking of selling up and moving to the GC?

Might pay to think again…..

https://twitter.com/newscomHQ/status/1453889570693472261
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October 30, 2021 10:05am
K

“To give organizations precedence over persons is to subordinate ends to means. What happens when ends are subordinated to means was clearly demonstrated by Hitler and Stalin. Under their hideous rule personal ends were subordinated to organizational means by a mixture of violence and propaganda, systematic terror and the systematic manipulation of minds. In the more efficient dictatorships of tomorrow there will probably be much less violence than under Hitler and Stalin. The future dictator’s subjects will be painlessly regimented by a corps of highly trained social engineers. “The challenge of social engineering in our time,” writes an enthusiastic advocate of this new science, “is like the challenge of technical engineering fifty years ago. If the first half of the twentieth century was the era of the technical engineers, the second half may well be the era of the social engineers” — and the twenty-first century, I suppose, will be the era of World Controllers, the scientific caste system and Brave New World.”

Aldous Huxley, Brave New World Revisited, 1958
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October 30, 2021 10:13am
Yvette

Race Relations Commissioner (at the time) Dame Susan Devoy responded to an anti-Semitic speech at an Auckland mosque.
The Islamic Ahlulbyt Foundation Centre, which hosted the event at which the cleric, Hojatoleslam Shafie, New Zealand based Iranian diplomat Hormoz Ghahremani and others spoke, need to let the rest of us know whether they will continue to tolerate this kind of hateful korero at their events.
– Susan Devoy, October 31, 2017

The smearing of Maori and their language in this incident by using te reo to coin the term “hateful korero” for “hate speech”, when Maori had nothing to do with the issue, is surely casual Maorification where people spurred by political correctness drop such words in conversation without regard to context – obviously, for what other acceptable explanation is there?

But, what would be real “hate korero”? –
Regarding the Haumaha Inquiry, Mr Shane Jones says, “… the latest attack from National Party spokesperson Chris Bishop, that New Zealand First shouldn’t be involved in picking a replacement for the inquiry because MP Fletcher Tabuteau comes from the same hapu as Mr Haumaha, is a new low for politics.
“Mr Bishop came from the tobacco industry so he’s a tough character and I’m sure he suffered no moral misgivings about his old industry, the tobacco industry, which has killed so many Māori women. So we’re dealing with a new level of vilification but one or three of us in parliament are made of sterner stuff than that and what goes around comes around,” Mr Jones says.
https://waateanews.com/2018/08/08/vilification-national-strategy-in-haumaha-inquiry/ – “Vilification, National strategy in Haumaha inquiry”
So Jones made this comment on Waatea – Urban Maori Radio
To use Jones own words, are we “dealing with a new level of vilification”? His? – vilifying both Mr Bishop and Maori women?

The insistence on a link to inciting violence being a prerequisite for curbing free speech has been repeated several times since the government announced its intention to reform hate speech law after the Christchurch mosque attacks. (Despite, dare it be pointed out, Tarrant just acted rather than say anything notable, and attention-drawing hate speech, that forecast that)

But – “We already have provisions to deal with what I describe – you know some call it hate speech – I’d call it extreme speech” – Jacinda Ardern
“The debate is whether or not in the aftermath of what we’ve experienced on March 15 we need to include the likes of religion, and that is something the Royal Commission did recommend we extend to”

“… we need to include the likes of religion”
So, what about the “conversation” now on unvaccinated and vaccinated persons?

Do see – Jacinda Ardern As The Most Divisive Leader In NZ’s History
https://asianinvasion2019.blogspot.com/2021/10/jacinda-ardern-as-most-divisive-leader.html
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October 30, 2021 10:14am
Prince

More Apartheid propaganda on Stuff:
https://www.stuff.co.nz/pou-tiaki/300441159/low-vaccine-rates-a-symptom-of-health-system-failures-and-incomplete-data

What about “Preponderance of Maori/Pacifica in All Blacks a symptom of Health and Phys Ed failures in New Zealand”.
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October 30, 2021 10:15am
Inandout

Some on here have compared the Greek financial collapse to what we may soon experience here. Anyhow here is a short summary of the Greek tragedy.
https://www.thebalance.com/what-is-the-greece-debt-crisis-3305525
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October 30, 2021 10:15am
Yvette

A Kumeū bakery is standing by a controversial Facebook post it made suggesting New Zealand’s new COVID-19 vaccine regulations are a form of Apartheid.
The Pie Shop posted the message on Wednesday and acknowledged it wasn’t a mistake on Friday after a backlash.

Apartheid was a brutal form of institutionalised white supremacy enforced by South African authorities in the 20th century. Under it, people were given rights according to their race, with black Africans afforded the least and whites the most.

Kumeū’s The Pie Shop, as a hospitality business, would be subject to the vaccine mandate, which appears to have upset its owners.

“The Pie Shop says, no to Apartheid, no to discrimination. We welcome all New Zealanders,” the business posted on Facebook.
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/lifestyle/2021/10/apartheid-the-pie-shop-stands-by-controversial-facebook-post-about-vaccine-mandates.html

The irony is not missed, of a humble pie-shop telling an ex-fish’n’chip wrapper how to run the country.
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October 30, 2021 10:25am
emmess

If anyone has any doubts that the left will sink to

Posing as neo-nazis to smear an opponent
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2021/10/29/false_flag_mcauliffe_campaign_interns_caught_dressed_as_charlottesville_tiki-torch_marchers_at_youngkin_event.html
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October 30, 2021 10:26am
Maggie Pie

A client of my partner runs a business at the Airport.
He was saying a ‘plane load’ of 501s arrived here late on Tuesday night.
Haven’t seen anything in the MSM as to who, what, or where they are.

Are we not entitled to know? The walk among us after all 🙁
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October 30, 2021 10:30am
- kevn
  
  @Maggie… They be safely tucked in at Ramada 4 star hotel in central Auckland. For a couple of weeks anyway.
  MSM? pfft or sheesh.
  
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  October 30, 2021 10:38am
  - Maggie Pie
    
    ‘safely tucked in?’……let’s hope so kev 🙁
    from what my partner was told, theres a few real bad mofos among them.
    
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    October 30, 2021 11:36am
    - Nickc2
      
      New neighbors anyone?
      
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      October 30, 2021 1:58pm
- Bridgenag
  
  Probably coming from Western Australia
  
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  October 30, 2021 1:03pm
  - Maggie Pie
    
    Brizzy from wot he heard.
    
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    October 30, 2021 1:41pm
    - Bridgenag
      
      Then we are still going to get the gangs from WA as we just LOVE gangs and have lots of handouts
      
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      October 30, 2021 2:28pm
- LauraNorda
  
  Maggie, was Ron Brierley amongst them?
  
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  October 30, 2021 2:51pm
  - Maggie Pie
    
    Ronald is actually an Aussie citizen, luckily 😀
    
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    October 30, 2021 3:33pm
burt

The good news keeps rolling in for our dear leader.
https://youtu.be/wCO8tJ6MKiU
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October 30, 2021 10:32am
Yvette

Several entities (now a dirty word, due to 3 Waters) like Human Rights and the Waitangi Tribunal who are silent on covid vaccinations.

If under, the Human Rights Bill, no one may be forced to have a vaccination, will those who are unvaccinated become a minority group, which the under the same Human Rights law, and others – like Race Relations and the proposed “hate speech “law, will it be unlawful to discriminate against such a group as a covid vaccination “passport” would do?

And the Treaty?
Article 3 – the Crown promised to Māori the benefits of royal protection and full citizenship – and the only “protection” available is vaccination, and a few spacing, hygiene, and gathering rules, while “full citizenship” carries the responsibility to avail oneself of vaccination, for your own benefit and that of those you care for – or not. 
But: nothing from the Waitangi Tribunal, which permeates almost all other activity in New Zealand.
It is silent.
And if it has no relevance to covid – serious illness, or perhaps death – what fucking relevance does it otherwise really have to anything else? How many kaumātua, both koroua and kuia elders, will this “living” document see dead?
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October 30, 2021 10:32am
Fletch

A truly awful article by a writer at RNZ who basically calls for the media not to cover any voices that oppose the vaccination edict by the govt. The mask is now well and truly off. He actually advocates for the media to employ a “truth sandwich” wherein they sandwich their own opinion (based on the message they are trying to push) in between two facts. The media will now be the sole arbiter of truth, repeating whatever the govt says.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/mediawatch/audio/2018818210/the-case-for-cutting-the-coverage-of-anti-vaxxers

Brendan Malone dissects the article on his podcast –
https://the-dispatches.castos.com/episodes/20-how-unreliable-has-the-media-now-become

As Malone says, the article says –

If media companies are serious about goals like vaccinating 90% of our eligible population, it could help to excise these stories [about those who oppose being vaccinated] from their pages

Well, the media aren’t supposed to have any goal apart from reporting the facts. It’s not their job to advocate anything the govt says or to start a campaign. They are not a political party (or aren’t supposed to be). If this is the way they are thinking, then they are in the wrong job.
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October 30, 2021 10:38am
- Prince
  
  “Well, the media aren’t supposed to have any goal apart from reporting the facts. It’s not their job to advocate anything the govt says or to start a campaign.”
  This is RNZ you’re talking about. That horse has well and truly bolted.
  
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  October 30, 2021 4:47pm
Benedict Yu

Interesting chart. Infections in the UK are soaring. But they are overwhelmingly in children, who are rarely severely infected.

https://twitter.com/toby_n/status/1453759980591591427/photo/1
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October 30, 2021 10:53am
- Fletch
  
  Interesting. But if you look at the deaths below age 18 there are 5 deaths, 4 of them unvaccinated. (see pages 17 and 18)
  
  https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1029606/Vaccine-surveillance-report-week-43.pdf
  
  So I guess it depends what they mean by a “case”. If a case means simply having a positive PCR test then, yes, of course children are going to get it. Having said that, I will admit that the age group has have a lot of numbers hospitalized on page 16. But I wonder how many of the “18 and below” and aged between, say, 0 and 12?
  
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  October 30, 2021 11:14am
- UrbanNeocolonialist
  
  Be afraid: FDA has just approved pfizer for 5 year olds. Which of course means it will be made mandatory in short order.
  
  I am deeply uncomfortable with that, as it appears highly likely that the vaccine is higher risk (and worse outcome immunity wise) than the disease.
  
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  October 30, 2021 1:31pm
lifesgood

Just had a plane fly overhead towing a “Stop three waters” banner. Nice one!
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October 30, 2021 10:53am
- Cinematic
  
  More good work by the Taxpayers Union.
  
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  October 30, 2021 1:19pm
- Jethrod
  
  A contribution from the Taxpayers Union!
  The struggle and fight back has started!
  
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  October 30, 2021 2:37pm
Inandout

Stay home Christchurch people as instructed; it is out there hunting down the unjabbed.
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October 30, 2021 11:01am
- krazykiwi
  
  Or alternatively, if you are fit, healthy and not old go out and get it .. because you know you will sometime.
  
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  October 30, 2021 1:47pm
  - bronny1
    
    Hoping I might have picked it up at the freedom gathering today. Except unfortunately it’s pretty difficult to catch in a well ventilated outdoor event without swapping saliva.
    
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    October 30, 2021 4:04pm
    - krazykiwi
      
      If the freedom gathering had turned into Woodstock you would have got it. Or got something 🙂
      
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      October 30, 2021 9:11pm
Local Miller

The great device has started. My double vaccinated daughter and son-in-law have told us we can only come visit and cuddle our 13 month old grand daughter if we: can confirm we’ve not been to a place of interest in the past week, don’t have the sniffles, wear a mask and hand apply sanitizer.
Showing them the stats that in the us there have been 558 Covid deaths for 0 – 17 year olds in 2020/2021 in the USA compared to 60,000 deaths total and 1,055 pneumonia deaths in the same period doesn’t help. We are now the great unwashed.
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October 30, 2021 11:07am
- Inandout
  
  LM, my children would not even think of acting like that, they love and respect me too much. I will admit I have always impressed on them to NEVER believe everything they hear or see and question/research rather than bindly accept. I am also glad all three are either self employed or work for a private employer. As an aside, does your daughter not call on you to baby sit at times?
  
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  October 30, 2021 12:10pm
- mawm
  
  It has started. So far…I have been banned from my cycle club, a neighbour who I often talk to when I pass by and she is in the garden asked me if I was vaxxed. When I replied in the negative she retreated down some stairs rather rapidly. And a good friend could not help herself blaming me for contributing to her not being able to go to her bach north of Auckland. I’m also unlikely to be allowed to fly to and be let into Aus to visit my daughter. I expect it to get a lot worse. I might just get an arm band with a yellow star or maybe a bell to ring as I shout “unclean” to avoid any direct confrontation. At least I will not be carrying a “dompas”.
  
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  October 30, 2021 1:25pm
- krazykiwi
  
  The venue provider has banned me from the wedding of some very dear friends. A pesky flu-like virus might be contagious, but evidence free bio-fascism is 1,000,000x more contagious.
  
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  October 30, 2021 9:15pm
surfing

Student Halls of residence in Auckland have very few residents for obvious reasons, but, student’s belongings are still in their rooms.

O’Rorke hall wants to charge my son close to $1000 to return his belongings.

We can’t get into Auckland to collect them, and , even if we could, we are not allowed into his room to get his things. Instead, we have to hire a moving company (the one they chose are charging $110 per hour) to bring his things down to ground level.
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October 30, 2021 11:07am
- Ed Snack
  
  Have a similar problem for my son wanting to return home for a bit, he’s temporarily had it with being locked down in Auckland. But difficult to get out, and moving his gear is damned expensive if I can’t just hire a big trailer and cart it down myself.
  
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  October 30, 2021 11:49am
JibberJabber

https://twitter.com/RAF_Luton/status/1454070595293954050

Fact of the Day: Gp Capt Tanner “Tanners” McTanner will make 32 flights a day from London City Airport to Glasgow Air Force base in his C17 to deliver 22 limousines (per flight) for celebrities attending the #COP26Glasgow to travel from the Private Jet Exhibitions to parties.
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October 30, 2021 11:17am
- marcw
  
  …”32 flights per day” .
  
  Sorry but logistically impossible. Maybe 5 max is more likely (returns).
  
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  October 30, 2021 11:41am
- Paulus
  
  But whilst there are 22 Electric Limos (Teslas I believe) there is only one charger at Gleneagles where they are to operate but diesel generators are availably to charge the batteries.
  
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  October 30, 2021 1:25pm
  - miltonF
    
    Land rovers apparently. And they will be charged using generators running on waste oil.
    
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    October 30, 2021 2:07pm
- UrbanNeocolonialist
  
  They are self-parodying with their conspicuous hypocrisy
  
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  October 30, 2021 1:28pm
Maggie Pie

Can’t say I’m too excited about Halloween this year.

I’ve been eating sweets and wearing a mask for the last 15 months.
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October 30, 2021 11:25am
Yvette

An unknown Maori on Tik Tok.
“Once Were Warriors” – but I’d rate this man a Warrior!

Jacinda Ardern As The Most Divisive Leader In NZ’s History – Tik Tok
Not a word untrue.
And from a guy who Labour stereotypically would have already counted on for his vote.

As linked to by other above commenters –
https://asianinvasion2019.blogspot.com/2021/10/jacinda-ardern-as-most-divisive-leader.html

Transcript of video –
Your lasting legacy, as a prime minister, will be the Prime Minister that divided the nation. A leader who created the most division, and the most discrimination, and all of New Zealand’s history.

It’s obvious that your be kind catchphrase, was nothing more than just an act.

There is nothing kind when you got family turning against family, employers against employees, friends against friends, South Island against North Island, everybody against Auckkland.

The traffic light system that you’ve announced – you might as well just call it the segregation system, because that’s exactly what it is.

To hear the prime minister say, if you want summer, if you want to hair cut, if you want to go to the gym, get vaccinated. If you don’t, these are the things that you’ll miss out on.

Now, when I hear that reminds me of a moment in history, where the German government leader declared that if you’re marked as a Jew, you no longer have any access to facilities or businesses. Once upon a time, a society segregated blacks against the whites. Today, it’s the non vaccine against the vaccine.

They are marginalizing our whole sector of New Zealand, based on an individual’s personal choice, a choice that is protected under the New Zealand Bill of Rights.

This has little to do with COVID. But everything about your freedom of choice.
Let’s say when COVID gone in a couple years time, the government they don’t care about you. They’re moving on to the next issue. Family ties have already been broken.

Friends, they’re no longer your friends they become your enemies, which leads you to pick up the pieces. What then?

In 2020 Jacinda Ardern said be kind in 2021. There is no kindness

Another view –
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/lifestyle/2021/10/apartheid-the-pie-shop-stands-by-controversial-facebook-post-about-vaccine-mandates.html
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October 30, 2021 11:28am
- Maggie Pie
  
  What this country need is a LEADER….not a big sister.
  
  SHEESH!!
  
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  October 30, 2021 11:42am
Wired-one

A couple of questions you intelligent people may be able to answer.

When vaccinations are approved for our younger children, will this mean our current vaccination rates will drop significantly, meaning the 90% target will be further away from being achieved?

Will you still be considered fully vaccinated if you do not get the booster shots?

And has the government mentioned how long Covid-19 passports will be with us? I get that we may need them long term for international travel. But what about domestically? Are these with us forever, and will they be expanded upon? Surely not?
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October 30, 2021 11:39am
- dcrane
  
  Will we be considered “fully vaccinated” if we got 1 Pfizer but then insisted on Novovax or some other one for a 2nd dose? I’m feeling less sure that these mRNA vaccines based on the extinct alpha variant make any more sense.
  
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  October 30, 2021 11:59am
- Reid
  
  Re: the booster shots, Israel led the way in requiring booster for its passport and most other countries are doing similar so why would NZ be any different. Bottom line is the vaccinated have turned their immune system into a subscription service for the rest of their lives. Chair of Moderna told Maria Bartrimo on Fox last week yearly boosters will be an ongoing requirement.
  
  Re: the regime introduced by the passports, of course they are with us forever – at least that’s the plan. Have a look at the Chinese Social Credit system, that’s the plan for the whole world eventually, and the passport is the first step toward getting us all used to living like the Chinese do, where you access to shelter and even food can be removed unless you behave.
  
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  October 30, 2021 12:29pm
  - RdM
    
    Wired-one wrote:
    “And has the government mentioned how long Covid-19 passports will be with us? I get that we may need them long term for international travel. But what about domestically? Are these with us forever, and will they be expanded upon? Surely not?”
    
    Reid writes in reply:
    “Re: the regime introduced by the passports, of course they are with us forever – at least that’s the plan. Have a look at the Chinese Social Credit system, that’s the plan for the whole world eventually, and the passport is the first step toward getting us all used to living like the Chinese do, where you access to shelter and even food can be removed unless you behave.”
    
    Not just China. Already India with 1.3 billion signed to a digital ID app system that itself doesn’t always behave. People have starved to death.
    
    Have a look at tragedies from that at the start of this long but comprehensive read:
    
    https://thegrayzone.com/2021/10/19/health-wealth-digital-passports-surveillance-capitalism/
    
    Further from that,
    
    In Indonesia, COVID-19 vaccines are mandatory, and those who refuse may face fines or be refused access to public services. In Greece, residents must present immunity to work in or enter bars, theaters, and other indoor public spaces.
    
    France has similarly required residents to carry a health pass for access to all restaurants, bars, trains, and any venue accommodating more than 50 people
    
    [ … ]
    
    Italy has mandated its Green Pass for all workers, threatening them with termination from jobs and suspension of pay. Italy also requires the pass to use Italian public transit.
    
    [ … ]
    
    Restrictions for Lithuanians who are not double vaccinated or unable to demonstrate recent prior infection from Covid-19 represent some of the harshest in the world. They are banned from restaurants, all non-essential stores, shopping centers, beauty services, libraries, banks or insurance agencies, universities, inpatient medical care, and train travel.
    
    Much more about developing the digital ID health pass systems in the link.
    
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    October 30, 2021 5:05pm
Southern Raider

I’m very confused

Case numbers continue to climb, vaccination rates continue to climb, but hospitalisation rates are dropping to lowest in the lockdown to date

Yet media are running articles claiming we need lockdown measures for at least another year to stop the predicted 5000 new cases a week and hospitals getting flooded.
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October 30, 2021 11:47am
- Stu2
  
  They’ve probably sent some patients home to be cared for in the community.
  
  The numbers hospitalised hit 55, dropped to 50 the next day, then dropped to 35 the day after.
  
  It looked like a change to how the system was operating.
  
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  October 30, 2021 12:12pm
  - Cinematic
    
    Yeah community care. We know you’re very scared but you’re not very sick. Go home.
    
    Same thing happened in Singapore. Scores of slightly ill very scared people turning up to hospital.
    
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    October 30, 2021 1:16pm
- Reid
  
  How else are they gonna keep the terror going?
  
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  October 30, 2021 12:15pm
lazza

Hey Gravelroad

Heard the one about “playing the ball instead of the (wo)man?”

Your comments add ZERO to the core 3W debate.

Jane Clifton, IMHO is one of the very few original, readable, sometime hilarious commentators at present going round in lil ol NZ.

Her bedfellow also (above) has ZERO to … “do with it” …OK?
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October 30, 2021 11:54am
- Cinematic
  
  Never heard of her.
  
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  October 30, 2021 1:14pm
- lifesgood
  
  I used to admire her but not now. You can judge a person by the company they keep.
  
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  October 30, 2021 1:50pm
Yvette

NZ agrees to Mickey Mouse copyright law in UK trade deal
Walt Disney Corporation championed extended protections for its cartoon characters; now New Zealand is conceding to paying for longer copyright
https://www.newsroom.co.nz/nz-agrees-to-mickey-mouse-copyright-law

But an issue this article does not seem to cover is whether any new copyright stance will be retrospective (as no legislation should be).
So will anything used now, as clear of copyright, become liable to retrospective payments as the extension of the period of copyright captures items already out of the previous period – the “life-plus-50” standard required by the World Trade Organization – if the proposed agreement goes ahead?
(BTW – this thought is not any one’s intellectual property …)
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October 30, 2021 12:07pm
Reid

I came back on here after some years away because I am so desperately sad to see my beloved country slipping away, as most others round the Western world are also slipping away. More accurately descending into boot stamping on face forever territory.

It’s not a left/right political thing, Boris in the UK is playing out the same recipe Jacinda is playing out. It’s an us vs them thing. Clearly Collins and the rest of the so-called ‘conservative’ politicians in Parliament, are not with us, they’re with them. Same as the opposition in the UK are not with us, same all round the world.

People need to look at the historical record and compare it to these times, and the three relevant periods are the two commie revolutions and the Nazi takeover of Germany. Look at what happened in the lead ups to those times in particular what they did to demoralise and prepare the respective populations for what was to come. You’ll find the same general recipe was used in all three instances. Seek to understand how that recipe works with respect to social factors such as the othering. In both commie revolutions they used class as the cleavage point because both the Russians and Chinese were homogenous populations so they couldn’t use race. In Germany they used race. In all three cases they used othering techniques to create an underclass and turn the people not in the selected group against those who were in it.

If you look at the propaganda techniques they used back then in all three cases, those also follow the same recipe.

History repeats, when one forgets it.
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October 30, 2021 12:14pm
- Taieri
  
  Population of the Russian (Tsarist) Empire was never homogeneous. On the contrary, even now Russia is a multinational state and home for almost 200 different ethnic groups. At the time of Bolshevik revolution it was even more diverse.
  
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  October 30, 2021 1:08pm
  - Reid
    
    I was wondering if anyone would pick that up, yes, Russia has 136 different cultures in its population, but Russians are the majority and it was the White Russians who came together to form the most cohesive resistant to the Bolsheviks, who weren’t Russian. And it was the Russians whom the Bolsheviks focused on because all the other ethnicities had nothing like the capacity in terms of intellectual and organisational capacity to resist them.
    
    The reason I didn’t bother making that distinction in my above is because it wasn’t germane to the point I was making.
    
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    October 30, 2021 1:49pm
Yvette

Is it really ~~love~~ irony what makes the world go around” – Christchurch Call –
Facebook trained its artificial intelligence systems to detect and block any future attempt to livestream a shooting spree with “police/military body cams footage,” and other violent material, in the aftermath of the Christchurch terror attack.

The emergency exercise – detailed in corporate papers leaked by whistleblower Frances Haugen – followed the March 2019 mass murder in the New Zealand city, described internally as “a watershed moment” for the Facebook Live video service.

The white supremacist attacker was able to broadcast a 17-minute live stream of the attack on two mosques that was not detected by the company’s systems, allowing it to be swiftly replicated online. 1.5m uploads had to be removed in the 24 hours afterwards.

… The change was announced in tandem with the Christchurch [Call] summit held in Paris, aimed at eliminating terrorist content online. In what Facebook described as “a major PR win”, the New Zealand prime minister, Jacinda Ardern, used “FB live to update her followers after the announcement”.

What has never been readily admitted, of course, is that for Facebook AI to thwart uploaded video of any attack, the attack must already be underway.
And of course, having convinced macron and others to pounce on Facebook, “a major PR win”, the New Zealand prime minister, Jacinda Ardern, used “Facebook Live to update her followers after the announcement”
Oh mon Dieu! – personne ne le dites à Emmanuel Macron!
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October 30, 2021 12:40pm
Reid

Vaccinated People Also Spread the Delta Variant, Yearlong Study Shows

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-10-28/getting-vaccinated-doesn-t-stop-people-from-spreading-delta

The narrative continues to collapse.
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October 30, 2021 1:05pm
Yvette

Sorry, Christmas is cancelled
If all those presently eligible to be vaccinated do in fact get vaccination that would be 4.2 million people out of the Team of Five Million [1] that would amount to 84 percent of the “Team”.
So, 90 percent of the eligible is indeed 75.6 of the “Team”.

• The FDA cleared kid-size doses — just a third of the amount given to teens and adults — for emergency use, and up to 28 million more American children could be eligible for vaccinations as early as next week. [2]

• More than a fifth of the Covid-19 cases in New Zealand’s current Delta outbreak were children aged under 12, who are ineligible to be vaccinated. [3] – Tuesday, September 21

So, as one kiwiblog commenter has alluded to, what happens to the finally Ardern-confirmed 90 percent “milestone” if five year old and over children are added to those numbers eligible?
What happens to passport admissions?

• “Sorry, you can’t come in – you baby is OK, and while you two parents are fully vaccinated, but it seems your eight-year old is not.”
• Although Auckland reached 90 percent of those eligible a month ago, not enough children 5 are fully vaccinated, so Christmas is cancelled”
• An average adult may “risk” vaccination, to protect themselves, their own parents, and their children, but will they risk a vaccination for their own 5 – 11 year old child?
Will any “milestone” for children become a “millstone”?

[1] Team of Five Million – dopey term really, as hundreds of thousands of children are below three or so, and have no idea that they are part of a nation-wide team, or have heard of Jacinda Ardern, apart from their parents perhaps mentioning her name among other expletives.
[2] https://www.1news.co.nz/2021/10/29/pfizer-covid-vaccine-cleared-for-children-aged-5-to-11-in-us/
[3] https://www.1news.co.nz/2021/09/21/more-than-200-under-12s-caught-covid-in-delta-outbreak/
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October 30, 2021 1:15pm
- hullkiwi
  
  ….but, but Yvette, how can this be. Jacinda protected Easter later yea? I thought Jacinda was kind, and going to protect us all, and save Christmas, and give us Summer!
  
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  October 30, 2021 3:12pm
Maggie Pie

Hundreds of tweets showing huge Lockdown Protest at the Domain.
Looks like thousands have turned out.
Police everywhere. No sign of ‘Andy the Cap’ among them.
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October 30, 2021 1:16pm
- mawm
  
  I went through the Domain on my return from my morning cycle and people were pouring in. For such a peaceful crowd there sure were a lot of police standing around.
  
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  October 30, 2021 1:33pm
- Cinematic
  
  Good to see!
  
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  October 30, 2021 2:07pm
- dcrane
  
  Herald sez perhaps 5000. Good showing. Stuff is pretending the whole thing didn’t happen as of 2:45PM…
  
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  October 30, 2021 2:47pm
  - Cinematic
    
    Yeah they don’t really report the news anymore.
    
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    October 30, 2021 3:43pm
  - emmess
    
    Bullshit, I was there
    Atleast 15000
    
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    October 30, 2021 3:55pm
  - Fletch
    
    I know someone there, who took photos. Says it is more like 15,000
    
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    October 30, 2021 4:24pm
surfing

160 cases? Open’er up… let the unvaxxed take their chances.
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October 30, 2021 1:30pm
- Yvette
  
  Surfing – 160 cases? Open’er up… let the unvaxxed take their chances.
  
  Your comment indicates a human element in this, “Open’er up” – Government, expert “advice”, potential vaccinees response, “milestones”, hospital preparedness – anything you wish to name may be, within hours or a few days, all overtaken by viral spread itself.
  
  Covid is a brainless unit – but remarkably driven by the same motivation as any other organism in the universe: to multiply – and may take over ‘naturally’ – ignorant of the Treaty, MQI policy, or Jacinda’s edicts.
  
  “Open’er up” – but by a human agency, or just the course of the virus itself?
  The unvaccinated may truly be running out of time – actually just determined by viral spread.
  
  The story of King Canute and the tide is an apocryphal anecdote illustrating the piety or humility of King Canute the Great, recorded in the 12th century by Henry of Huntingdon.
  In the story, Canute demonstrates to his flattering courtiers that he has no control over the elements (the incoming tide), explaining that secular power is vain compared to the supreme power of God. The episode is frequently alluded to in contexts where the futility of “trying to stop the tide” of an inexorable event is pointed out, but usually misrepresenting Canute as believing he had supernatural powers, when Huntingdon’s story in fact relates the opposite.
  
  Despite conflating the elements (the incoming tide) with God, the principle remains the same.
  
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  October 30, 2021 2:37pm
- Cinematic
  
  Yep they already are at that number. How big is the outbreak really? I know many people who won’t be bothered getting tested even if symptomatic.
  
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  October 30, 2021 2:39pm
- UrbanNeocolonialist
  
  Good, at this point the faster it spreads the better, and a peak in Jan-Feb would be best. We don’t want NZ to still be wallowing along in repressive lockdowns in 6 months time.
  
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  October 30, 2021 4:19pm
- mawm
  
  How many of those are fully/partially vaccinated? The cynic in me says that if it was only the unwashed we’d be told.
  
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  October 30, 2021 5:36pm
Reid

22 Studies and Reports that Raise Profound Doubts about Vaccine Efficacy for the General Population

https://brownstone.org/articles/22-studies-and-reports-that-raise-profound-doubts-about-vaccine-efficacy-for-the-general-population/
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October 30, 2021 1:52pm
Chuck Bird

When one looks at the Stuff article about children it how little direct benefit to children getting vaccinated. I wonder how many MPs with children 5 to 11 will get their children for the good of the country and which party they are from.
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October 30, 2021 1:56pm
Truman lodge

Kiwis will accept draconian laws because of convenience..

If we act like beta simps then we will be treated as such..
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October 30, 2021 2:01pm
Tauhei Notts

Friends who enjoy a beer or four were chatting last night;
Is the Ardern regime a worse government than the George Forbes 1931-35 effort?
It is a close call. Comments please.
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October 30, 2021 2:25pm
- krazykiwi
  
  There’s a difference:
  
  Forbes tried to get New Zealand out of the Great Depression, while Ardern hell-bent on creating one.
  
  For all his apparent failings he is worth 1000 Jacinda Arderns.
  
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  October 30, 2021 3:37pm
Maggie Pie

Hard to understand why people would expect so much of ‘ACC’ employees.
They’re no different to 99% of the other minions who work for this gubmint.
The majority of them pack their own lunch, rely on public transport, and all wish they didn’t have to get up in the mornings.

Just saying.
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October 30, 2021 2:31pm
Diogenes

A blogger on KB yesterday mentioned journalism as a profession. This has been a bugbear of mine for a long time. By way of background, I worked as a journalist in newspapers, magazines, radio and TV in NZ and Australia for more years than I care to think about. I was hired straight out of school by a country town, family-owned paper (long since bought out). I had no qualifications beyond School Certificate. In those days, university and polytech courses did not exist. But even in these days of higher education, anyone can be hired as a journalist, and called such, if someone is willing to pay them.
That does not square with the usual definition of a profession, for which you must have a degree, and for which there is some governing body which oversees standards, etc. Obvious examples: doctors, dentists, lawyers, etc. Imagine your dentist straight out of school at 16 with no formal training! So please, let us drop this idiotic pretension that journalism is a profession.
Incidentally, I was also not popular with my radio colleagues for suggesting that we were over-paid. I certainly was, even though I was on a senior grading. I was not a specialist — just a hack journalist. Ironically, I was eventually made redundant by Radio NZ along with many other of the highly paid because the corporation was trying to save money.
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October 30, 2021 2:56pm
- Reid
  
  Just like academia has been hijacked over the last 3-4 decades until now its exclusively populated with commies, so has journalism.
  
  Current times are now showing how critical this loss is, because if both those professions had remained intact as neutral institutions, none of what we see around us would be possible because there’d be too many dissenting voices. But combining that infiltration with the cancel culture means not only are dissenters ignored they are actively silenced and ridiculed. And since has the truth been easy to obtain under conditions such as those? And journalism is at the heart of that suppression. They will in due course I hope be tried as war criminals for their roles in this attempt to cancel Western civilisation, just like the journalists who supported the Nazis when they were taking power were tried, then executed, not so many years ago.
  
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  October 30, 2021 3:31pm
- WaveyDavey
  
  “…the usual definition of a profession, for which you must have a degree…”
  
  That is most definitely not the “usual definition” of a profession at all
  
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  October 30, 2021 3:55pm
  - Diogenes
    
    Ok, WD, perhaps I am a little loose with the definition, but I suspect what I put forward was how the majority of the general public would think of a profession.
    However, I also offer the following:
    
    Cambridge Dictionary: “relating to work that needs special training or education; having the type of job that is respected because it involves a high level of education and training.”
    
    And from http://www.professions.org.au: “Professionals are governed by codes of ethics and profess commitment to competence, integrity and morality, altruism and the promotion of the public good within their expert domain. Professionals are accountable to those they serve and to society.”
    
    I suggest the latter rules out most of today’s journalists.
    
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    October 30, 2021 6:46pm
- Diogenes
  
  Are the downticks from highly paid “journalists” who don’t like being exposed?
  
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  October 30, 2021 5:06pm
  - Maggie Pie
    
    Mainly from men who feel intimidated by tall, smart, intellegent women 😛
    
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    October 30, 2021 5:49pm
dcrane

This intersects with another source of our social ills – inflation of professional-administrative-class salaries generally (often justified by a claimed need to follow the corporate world). Most people who gain access to this higher social stratum immediately become protective of their paychecks, and will tend consciously and subconsciousnly to identify with the attitude and goals of other in that club (a club which obviously doesn’t include the plebs).

oops intended as a reply to Diogenes
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October 30, 2021 3:13pm
Inandout

This Rep Donalds speaks such sense on the climate fiasco and should be required viewing by our climate nancies in the Greens.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwjIVj7BRic
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October 30, 2021 3:37pm
Maggie Pie

WAY TO GO JOE!! 😎

https://twitter.com/nypost/status/1454149556023832578
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October 30, 2021 3:53pm
- dcrane
  
  Let’s go Brandon!
  
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  October 30, 2021 3:58pm
- oldfella
  
  Maggie, which car is Brandon in?
  
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  October 30, 2021 4:44pm
Fisiani2

Never judge a book by it’s cover

Is that the most ridiculous saying?

Hands up anyone who does not judge EVERY book by it’s cover.
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October 30, 2021 4:12pm
Truman lodge

I wonder when Jacinda will start breaking into dance during the 1pm sermons like Nicolas Maduro does?
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October 30, 2021 4:33pm
doggone7

I see Hannah Tamaki is proving oldies can be anything they want. She took to the protest stage today saying she is a mother, grandmother and great-grandmother.
She reckoned people should have the freedom of choice. Cool. She exercises her choice to show, regardless of the offspring she has, she’s an idiot.
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October 30, 2021 4:57pm
greybeard

‘Founding Principles’ of the New Zealand National Party, as enunciated by Sid Holland in 1936.

“To promote good citizenship and self-reliance; to combat communism and socialism; to maintain freedom of contract; to encourage private enterprise; to safeguard individual rights and the privilege of ownership; to oppose interference by the State in business, and State control of industry”.

I just thought it was a good time to remind people of what New Zealand should be, if governed by sensible, honest, true, patriotic individuals.
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October 30, 2021 5:57pm
- mikenmildagain
  
  And when was New Zealand ever governed by ‘sensible, honest, true, patriotic individuals’?
  Also, was your quote from Sid Holland? He wasn’t the founding leader, in 1936 would not the statement have come from a more senior figure, or from a conference resolution,etc?
  
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  October 30, 2021 6:26pm
  - greybeard
    
    I didn’t say he was the “founding leader”.
    I said that he spoke those words.
    I have no idea who initially said them, but they were still correct in my opinion.
    You are one sad person, MMA, and I hope one day you will see the light and just enjoy life and not be constantly consumed by bitterness and negativity.
    
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    October 30, 2021 6:53pm
    - mikenmildagain
      
      Except he didn’t speak those words, but I am happy to be corrected with a citation.
      But my more substantive point was that no national party government has ever put those principles into practice. Those words have been quoted many times on Kiwiblog over the years – words that are meaningless without action to back them up.
      
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      October 30, 2021 8:18pm
Fletch

Saw the protests on Newshub – 1 News had 20 seconds on the story, compared to Newshub’s full coverage of the Auckland and Wellington protests. 1 News is so biased. A paid for station.
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October 30, 2021 6:11pm
Northshoredoc

Very poor performance by Graham Le Gros on the news.

Scaremongering to get 5-12 year olds vaccinated is a poor strategy.
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October 30, 2021 6:19pm
Harriet

“……Te Reo……”

Amish as Bro. 😎
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October 30, 2021 6:21pm
Gravelroad

The Mongrel Mob is planning a get together next month to celebrate the Porirua chapters 50th birthday.
Hundreds of mobsters from all over NZ are expected to attend.
Police say they will keep an eye out for any law breaking.
So I’m thinking of having a bit of a do up the gravelroad for my birthday in December.
Ok to invite more than 100 guests?
Will I need to alert the police?
There won’t be many motor bikes, drug dealers, thieves or prostitutes in attendance (as far as I know).
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October 30, 2021 6:40pm
- kevn
  
  @Gravel… Prob make for a quieter weekend in other parts of NZ.
  
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  October 30, 2021 8:10pm
greybeard

Just who was it who started the rumour that Jacinda Ardern was a “great communicator” ?
Was it…….. Jacinda Ardern?

Let’s face it, she is an absolute nightmare in front of a microphone: crap pronunciation, never has any facts, terrible facial contortions, patronising attitude.
And the only person on earth who has no letter “T” in her alphabet.
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October 30, 2021 6:45pm
- Taieri
  
  She’s very good at pushing the right buttons though. Such as telling the disciples precisely what they want to hear.
  
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  October 30, 2021 8:34pm
Pongo

Why is plod looking at charges against the protestors today and the no name suppression Tamaki and his other half but totally ignoring the fact that Auckland is still in lockdown because of gang activity and there is a rest home that is about to murder half their residents because they have fucked up and broke the rules.
Welcome to Policing by politics.
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October 30, 2021 7:02pm
Inthe09

Isn’t it nice to see the Supercars out of Sydney back on TV. No masks, no fear, no standing meters apart, people getting on with life and enjoying what they’re doing.

If there is one good thing about social media it’s that a lot of Jacindas fan base will be watching people overseas living normally and wanting the same. The MSM can’t protect the Government from that (yet…)
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October 30, 2021 7:19pm
Kiwi_in_Paris

Israel versus India with jibby jab rates and ivermectin. It is becoming increasingly hard to hide the fact that they have banned the cure, while mandating the poison:

https://twitter.com/wakethesheepnow/status/1454337879640006661
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October 30, 2021 7:58pm
RdM

Is the mandated ‘vaccine’ a Trojan Horse for a digital ID pass?
Internally as well as through ports?

https://thegrayzone.com/2021/10/19/health-wealth-digital-passports-surveillance-capitalism/

https://thegrayzone.com/2021/10/26/cloak-dagger-military-intelligence-digital-vaccine-passport/
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October 30, 2021 9:07pm
- krazykiwi
  
  Yes. This is the end game. And people paralyzed with continuous panic-porn are oblivious.
  
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  October 30, 2021 9:17pm
crackle

Was a good turnout today, if you can go to the next one. You dont need to like Brian Tamaki its far more important that we stop this govt in its tracks. If you can stomach that at least show up for groundswell.

Commenting on the net wont help, its time to get out of the house and be counted.

Unless you’re happy with the current staye of affairs of course…
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October 30, 2021 9:08pm
ABS4EVA

LABOUR PARTY LAB RATS
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October 30, 2021 11:43pm

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