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September 21, 2021 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 21 September 2021

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General Debate

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Warren

Experts say Auckland moving to level 3 is a risk- but Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern says Covid-19 can be eliminated.
Alert level 3is being called atoll of the dice that could also eliminate Delta or send the Country back to level 4.
From tomorrow, Auckland will make the move after five weeks at level 4 with Covid-19 modeler Professor Shaun Hendry says greater freedoms allowed at level 3 were at risk.
In one scenario contact tracers could beat the outbreak in a couple of weeks but in another, case numbers could steadily rise – like in Victoria and New South Wales- and Auckland would have to return back to alert level 4, that could lead to a outbreak which drags on for weeks – or months Hendry says.
This Goverment led by Jacinda Ardern our Prime Minister are play Russian Roulette with peoples lives in a quest to do the impossible, eliminating Covid – 19 which no other Country has been able to do but our wannabe Famous Prime Minister believes she knows better than all expert in science worldwide, gee aren’t we so lucky.
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September 21, 2021 8:00am
- Warren
  
  The link
  https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/451931/experts-say-auckland-moving-to-alert-level-3-is-a-risk-but-pm-says-covid-19-can-be-eliminated
  
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  September 21, 2021 8:10am
  - Frank the tank
    
    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2021/09/coronavirus-jacinda-ardern-says-it-s-within-our-power-to-ensure-freedom-from-tight-covid-19-restrictions-at-christmas.html
    
    Work will set you free……..
    
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    September 21, 2021 10:22am
    - curry4me
      
      Frank the tank: Did she specify which Christmas? would one have to be a complete libtard to beleive her?
      
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      September 21, 2021 1:49pm
      - Frank the tank
        
        In New Zimbabwe Turkeys vote for Christmas just ask the sheeple of Taranaki
        
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        September 21, 2021 2:54pm
      - blue collar
        
        Sheeple of Taranaki Frankie boy …. shames me to admit you’re right , I’m a Seymour man personally … we were oil n gas n farming …. looks like we are an urbanised sisterhood who’s men are hiding under the bed , wringing their hands , after all .
        
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        September 21, 2021 8:12pm
- Ra Henare
  
  To believe anything Hendy says is akin to believing in fairies at the bottom of the garden.
  
  There are over a hundred examples in the world of what will happen with outbreaks of Covid.
  
  Why on gods earth do the media and government concentrate on cases…Which in reality are positive tests(subject to false positives etc)
  
  The measurement surely should be hospitalizations and deaths BECAUSE of Covid.
  Going to hospital with a broken leg and being tested positive for Covid is NOT a Covid hospitalisation.
  
  When will the inept DG of Health open up the data for real experts to peruse and evaluate. Why does this data have to be hidden???
  
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  September 21, 2021 8:23am
  - Nigel Kearney
    
    I don’t understand why Hendy is still on TV. Kermit the frog has the same medical qualifications, a much better track record in making Covid predictions, and is more entertaining. Kermit’s diction is maybe a little worse but it’s close. Seems like a replacement is in order.
    
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    September 21, 2021 9:20am
    - EssenX
      
      Hopeless Hendy said last year we’d be looking at 80,000 deaths or more. On the other hand, in the recent Delta outbreak he was confident for only 100-120 cases. I’m sure there’s been other instances where his numbers have been badly wrong and probably don’t pass a cursory BS filter so I’m not sure why anyone pays any attention to what he says at all.
      
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      September 21, 2021 9:27am
    - Ed Snack
      
      I’m surprised Nigel that you would support Kermit, you do know that he is green don’t you ?
      
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      September 21, 2021 10:24am
- I remember when
  
  All we need is the ‘science’ to show us why Auckland is Level 3 and a limited amount of Hauraki/Coromandel Level 4.
  Will Auckland be treated in a similar way if new cases emerge. Small ‘ring-fenced’ areas changed to Level 4.
  
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  September 21, 2021 8:26am
  - oldfella
    
    IRW, Cindy was asked twice at yesterday’s 4pm POT what it would take to push Ak back to Level 4. Twice, she resorted to waffle and managed to ignore the question. Surprisingly, none of the (supposed) journalists challenged her on it.
    
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    September 21, 2021 11:13am
    - sooty
      
      They all were given a list of questions to ask and by whom!
      
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      September 21, 2021 2:38pm
- Bloody Dago
  
  We all know where the risk is. It’s the ongoing or more to the point, lack of competent governance by this Marxist government.
  
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  September 21, 2021 8:49am
- WellingtonBFF
  
  Yes -these so called ‘experts’ turn to NSW and ignore Victoria. The natural reaction to increasing case numbers (casedemic much?) by the covid dictatorship is more draconian lockdown measures – the result = increased case numbers. Why because more people break more rules.
  
  The choice is not business vs deaths, it is business and deaths vs deaths. The media, seemingly most of the public and certainly the Government simply seem willfully blind to second and third order effects based on complex system theory, where decentralized control has significantly greater impact.
  
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  September 21, 2021 8:59am
  - Ehlana
    
    Wellington, who is this cabinet do you think might have heard of complex system theory?
    
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    September 21, 2021 12:05pm
    - WellingtonBFF
      
      Bahaha, that made me lol….You make a very good point! Although they do spend truckloads on advisors (Hendy, Wiles, Baker, Two Short et al).
      
      In related news, I was disappointed for the media not to film the level 4 Auckland beach throngs at the weekend and ask Wiles if she wondered if her bubble buddy outing with her non-swimming swimming buddy may have been causal……
      
      Then the blairite could have utterly rejected the premise of that question on her behalf…………
      
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      September 21, 2021 12:19pm
- Albert_Ross
  
  This Goverment led by Jacinda Ardern our Prime Minister are playing Russian Roulette with peoples lives in a quest to do the impossible, eliminating Covid – 19
  
  So if attempting elimination constitutes “playing Russian Roulette with people’s lives” – what’s your alternative, that doesn’t involve any risk to people’s lives?
  
  No, the problem with attempting elimination is not that it risks people’s lives. It is that the cost of not risking their lives is far, far greater than can possibly be justified in terms of cost per life saved, eg if you compare it to the amount of effort we put into preventing deaths from obesity, by suicide, by traffic accident.
  
  Far from not “playing Russian Roulette with people’s lives”, they actually should be accepting that there will be a few deaths, and they should have been ready to do so weeks if not months ago.
  
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  September 21, 2021 9:16am
  - krazykiwi
    
    Agreed. The very process of living involves accepting some risk of death on a daily basis, while acknowledging that the probability of death is 100%. For all of us.
    
    I posit that the amount of angst a person has about dying of Covid-19 is directly proportional to the extent of socialism in a given country.
    
    I suggest this because long-time socialism dulls individual agency. It exchanges personal responsibility for the lie that the supposedly benevolent state will take care of every aspect of life, including the prevention of death.
    
    In truth this belief is, in and of itself, deadly.
    
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    September 21, 2021 9:58am
- Bobba Fret
  
  I still want him to release the working calculations on how he calculated 80,000 deaths. Sweden has twice our population and let the virus rip.
  Why do they still go to him for his “expert” opinion?
  
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  September 21, 2021 10:35am
  - Stu2
    
    That number came out of a do nothing scenario. No border closure, no lockdowns, no mask wearing …
    
    Covid let rip with no reaction.
    
    You do that sort of model run to see what the gains are in doing things.
    
    We were never going to do nothing, so 80,000 was not going to happen. It was probably perfectly ok in context, but a nonsense number for the politicans to use without explanation. You are gunning for the wrong target.
    
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    September 21, 2021 11:42am
    - doggone7
      
      It was a ‘Briscoes number,’ like retailers who say “up to 25% off everything.” Which could mean one thing has 25% off and everything else has 5% off.
      
      You are right. He said if we just carry on, do nothing. to prevent it there could be up to 80,000 deaths.
      
      It was a perfectly reasonable common he would have had grounds for making.
      
      The ignorant, the mischievous, the dumb, the one-eyed partisan politicos and smart arses had a ball with it.
      
      The funniest was some questioning his competence in his field of expertise yet they didn’t have the comprehension to even read his comments but believed the beat-up which went on and were into it boots and all.
      
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      September 21, 2021 10:59pm
  - doggone7
    
    Contact him and ask him.
    
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    September 21, 2021 10:49pm
- Sir Cullen's Sidekick
  
  Warren bro – As long as the wimmin folk of this country are backing Cindy big time, she can do anything she wants and nobody cares. After all annty Judy across the fence believes Cindy saved her life from this monster covid. Game, Set and Match to Cindy.
  
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  September 21, 2021 11:35am
- all true
  
  Not only the Show Pony believes that she knows everything better, there are also the “know it all” professors she has in her team. These professors compared to the world science they are just 2nd class.
  
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  September 21, 2021 3:05pm
Andrei

If I had suggested to you in December 2019 that within eighteen months the police would be pursuing cars full of contraband KFC over gravel back roads, Dukes of Hazzard style, on the Waikato/Auckland border you would have probably politely enquired What have you been smoking?

And yet here we are.
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September 21, 2021 8:00am
- pdm
  
  Not like Poto to have the Police round up straying Mongrel Mob members.
  
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  September 21, 2021 8:14am
- jacob
  
  KFC delivered by the mongrel mob
  
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  September 21, 2021 8:21am
  - Ruawai
    
    Drugs were already delivered in exchange for cash and KFC.
    
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    September 21, 2021 8:32am
  - RichardF
    
    Mobster-Eats, I bet Uber are worried!
    
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    September 21, 2021 9:14am
  - ecco
    
    Just shows that the mongrel mob never needed a handout from Ardern. That is a large amount of money to have that they had in the car. That’s a serious amount of P they are distributing. Apart from the irony of finding the kfc, NZ is in serious trouble if that’s an indicator of the size of their business model.
    
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    September 21, 2021 11:12am
  - oldfella
    
    Jacob, I understand they’re branching out into ‘Uber-Harley’. The new business will deliver whatever you want directly to your door.
    Food, drugs, stolen goods of all descriptions. But strictly COD.
    
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    September 21, 2021 11:23am
- doggone7
  
  If anyone had suggested at anytime that the cops pulling over a vehicle and finding gang associates with more than $100,000 in cash and KFC and the chicken was the main point of conversation, you would have probably politely enquired “What have you been smoking?”
  
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  September 21, 2021 8:24am
  - Prince
    
    ‘OK, where’d the cash come from ?’
    ‘Ahh, sorry sir, all I know it’s somewhere called ‘The Beehive’. Our contact was a guy called ‘Grant’, probably not his real name. There’s a whole gang of them.’
    
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    September 21, 2021 10:11am
  - RightFirstTime
    
    I see from the TV advertisements that KFC are celebrating 50 years of selling their fine product in New Zealand. Perhaps a good marketing idea would be to introduce the “Bro Bucket” into their range. I’m sure it would appeal to a large number of their customers.
    
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    September 21, 2021 10:15am
- peterwn
  
  Need to do things Trump style and build the Great Wall of the Bombay Hills. Perhaps the Yanks have heaps of surplus wall materials now that Joe has stopped wall building.
  
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  September 21, 2021 8:30am
  - In Vino Veritas
    
    Don’t think so Peter. The wall material went to the maskless Hollywood elite so they could build one to protect themselves from the great unwashed at the Emmys…..
    
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    September 21, 2021 9:54am
- Nickc2
  
  The Brown Brothers do Starsky and Hutch. Another NZ-made TV series in waiting eh bro.
  No actors will be required, the Black Power gang and Aotearoan Police will play themselves.
  All cars used in the series will be stolen, including Police cars and all guns and drugs used in the series will be returned to their rightful owners, the gangs.
  
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  September 21, 2021 9:05am
- Wayne Mapp
  
  It is increasingly looking like they key covid clusters are among the Mongrel Mob. No wonder the tail is proving to be hard to eliminate. Not exactly a group who obey the law.
  
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  September 21, 2021 10:31am
  - ecco
    
    Agreed Wayne, the issue is not people WITHOUT covid not complying. The problem is Ardern’s constituents, mainly in South Auckland, who DO have covid, not giving a toss about Ardern’s rules.
    
    Same with them not being bothered to get off the couch to get vaccinated. This is not vaccine hesitancy, it’s just downright sloth and ignorance, despite millions of $$ being thrown at certain races to encourage them to get vaccinated. The mongrel mob cases in the household of nine people explains it all to me.
    
    Because of these constituents of hers, Ardern chooses to lock down the whole of Auckland. Level 3 is no different to level 4 in business killing effects for a large amount of Auckland businesses. Have you noticed the glee in Ardern’s voice when she basically says ‘I’ve still got control over you all in Level 3’? Can almost hear the smirk when she says this..
    
    And she wonders why her plan is not working.
    
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    September 21, 2021 11:33am
    - sooty
      
      What about all of the other gangs Wayne?
      Do they wear their masks and social distance while keeping in their bubbles?
      
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      September 21, 2021 2:46pm
  - fisho
    
    To the down-ticker….Is that you Louise Hutchinson?
    
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    September 21, 2021 5:40pm
Jibber NO Jabber

Jacindas favourite training video? ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1_HfhtB5eo
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September 21, 2021 8:01am
Vory v zakone

QUICK READS FROM THE WEEK THAT WAS

_Police in Melbourne, Australia have made over 200 arrests and deployed capsicum spray as violent anti-lockdown protests erupted as protestors chant “YOU SERVE US” at officers.
_Railway Workers Protest as Macron Unveils New High-speed Train at Paris Station. Strike is expected
_Brazil: Man Throws Explosive Device at Chinese Consulate in Rio
_General Milley faces congressional investigation for TREASON.
(Gen. Milley asked military leaders to swear an oath to him during secret meeting)
_Tom Renz: Hospitals are now becoming killing fields Brighteon.TV
_Backfire: Detroit TV station asks for stories of ‘unvaccinated’ covid fatalities, gets bombarded with stories of ‘vaccinated’ deaths
_Dr. Stella Immanuel talks about how hospitals are ignoring hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin as effective treatments
_COVID PLANDEMIC: Healthcare insiders blow lid on widespread elder abuse, medical fraud, forced vaccines
_Same ivermectin that US government doesn’t want Americans to receive is helping save lives across India
_Top FDA Scientists Write Letter to Lancet Warning Against Fauci’s Booster Shots
_Biden Regime Confesses To Indiscriminate Slaughter Of 10 Innocent Afghan Civilians, Children With Drone Strike
_FDA Votes 16-2 AGAINST Widespread Covid-19 Booster Shots
_Giulia Lucenti: 16-year-old Italian girl dead less than 24 hours after second Pfizer mRNA injection
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September 21, 2021 8:01am
- Brian McDonald
  
  Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
  For an update on that list.
  NZ:
  Leader of opposition breaks Covid rules eats 4
  scoop ice cream 2 weeks after calling a Covid
  commentator fat.
  Shadow Minister of Justice, vaccine-hesitant, last
  to get vaccinated. Needs help to cross the road to
  walk- in pharmacy for shots. Otherwise known
  for his long-distance bravery.
  
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  September 21, 2021 8:48am
  - Vory v zakone
    
    You’re a great one to be talking about ‘shots’ and ‘bravery’ in the same paragraph you lowlife [deleted]
    
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    September 21, 2021 8:54am
  - kowtow
    
    How does one eat ice cream with a mask on ?
    
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    September 21, 2021 9:08am
    - gump
      
      How does one conduct parliamentary business in Queenstown?
      
      Collins demanded an exemption to travel to Wellington for the purpose of attending Parliament.
      
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      September 21, 2021 10:37am
      - Ehlana
        
        The business of the Leader of the Opposition in Parliament presumably encompasses travelling to visit people around the country, so as to see and hear for herself first hand the impact of government actions.
        
        Aren’t Wellington and Queenstown on the same alert level?
        
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        September 21, 2021 12:09pm
    - Sir Cullen's Sidekick
      
      Cindy can demonstrate that kowtow. She has nothing else to do.
      
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      September 21, 2021 11:37am
  - KevO'Brien
    
    Fraser House basement dwellers demand better pay and toilets.
    
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    September 21, 2021 9:11am
  - RoboRob
    
    You may not know this Brian but in the South island (almost) everybody in a cafe doesn’t wear a mask. They dont sip a coffee, put it back on and then take it off for anoth sip.
    
    Care to tell me which labour and Green MPs have been vaccinated? My money is on the Greens having acheived 90% UN vaccinated.
    
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    September 21, 2021 9:12am
    - David George
      
      Yes, unsurprisingly we haven’t heard anything from the Greens. It’s hard to imagine their core anti GMO constituency, people that lose their shit over sweetcorn that’s been modified for drought resistance, being too keen on being injected with untested genetically modified vaccines.
      
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      September 21, 2021 9:41am
      - RoboRob
        
        The amazing thing to me is that no one in the media apparently has thought to ask the question. We also have no idea as to how many Labour MPs are vacinated.
        
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        September 21, 2021 10:33am
    - krazykiwi
      
      Not 10 minutes ago I was refused [take out] service in a Wellington cafe because I wasn’t wearing a mask. The tables around me were filled with unmasked, smiling, normal faces enjoying coffee and treats. The staff member offered me a mask so I could place my order. I politely declined – not her issue she’s an enforcer of fascist rules – and left. I won’t be going back there.
      
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      September 21, 2021 10:03am
    - Sir Cullen's Sidekick
      
      South Island traitors voted for Labour big time. So they should follow every word cindy says. Traitors.
      
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      September 21, 2021 11:38am
      - RoboRob
        
        So did the North Islanders, stop being islandist 🙂
        
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        September 21, 2021 1:59pm
      - Frank the tank
        
        Lot’s of “clovers” and “Mollies” in the SI SCS. Like the “mollie” that ‘narked’ on Judith for not having her gimp mask on.
        
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        September 21, 2021 2:58pm
  - Fuzzysnuggleduck
    
    Eating an ice cream doesn’t immediately make you fat or unhealthy.
    All things in moderation.
    Being overweight is how you come to be called fat.
    Nor was there any breaking of Alert Level rules.
    – But I am sure you knew this, in your poorly attempted & ham fisted trolling.
    Fail.
    
    It was actually quite neat how the event also unintentionally promoted the plight of Afghan interpreter families too.
    Hence ‘anti-Taliban icecream’.
    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-delta-outbreak-david-seymour-leads-accidental-ice-cream-centred-anti-taliban-protest/UGBHKHBN6ZBNOD3NZSSJMQSAYI/
    Originally intended to promote awareness about impact to small businesses.
    
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    September 21, 2021 11:52am
- doggone7
  
  Haven’t seen Dr. Stella Immanuel mentioned in ages. She’s the one who thinks endometriosis is caused by having sex with demons in dreams.
  
  Her weekend video is labelled as “Join us for revival prayer camp – We will pray until something happens!” I don’t know what happened but she stopped after 2 hours.
  
  A doctor, a mental health counsellor, covers the provisos of who to have dream sex with according to Immanuel.
  
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9ioR0vO2LU
  
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  September 21, 2021 8:49am
  - Vory v zakone
    
    Perhaps you could consider the ‘expert’ in this video
    https://youtu.be/obdI7tg
    
    #Whistleblower
    
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    September 21, 2021 2:35pm
    - Vory v zakone
      
      Oops now removed from utube… ?
      However there is this
      
      BREAKING PART 1: Federal Govt @HHSgov Whistleblower Goes Public with Secret Recordings
      
      ‘Government Doesn’t Want to Show the [COVID] Vaccine is Full of Sh*t’
      
      They ‘Shove’ Adverse Effect Reporting ‘Under the Mat’
      
      #CovidVaxExposed
      
      https://ctt.ec/qc994
      
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      September 21, 2021 2:54pm
Benedict Yu

Just a couple of comments on the PM’s statements yesterday about vaccine targets. She said..

““You will have heard Dr Bloomfield saying he’s aiming for 90 plus [per cent] of eligible New Zealanders, so that’s the range in which we want to see people aspiring to. That’s the kind of range that means we have fewer restrictions.”

………

I think 90 percent of the eligible population will be impossible. That is because the eligible population is 12 and over.

In the UK vaccination rates are going to probably top out in the high 80 percent range. That reflects very high rates in people over 70 but quite moderate rates in people under 30.

I don’t have time to check but I think New Zealand has a younger demographic than the UK. That will make reaching 90 percent of over 12 year olds a tough ask. And for Maori it will be impossible because of their age profile.

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-55274833

So if we don’t hit 90 percent what is the plan? If I had to guess I think we will peak out at about 75 to 80 percent of the eligible population aged 12 and over.

And if we did reach 90 percent what is the plan then?

Second comment….

Jacinda says that all unvaccinated people in Auckland over the age of 65 need to stay at home.

Really? Anyone over 65 who has not been vaccinated has made that choice. Apparently there are 23000 of them in Auckland. They are not going to stay at home.
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September 21, 2021 8:01am
- Scott
  
  The plan Benedict my good man, is to keep this going as long as possible, preferably through to the next election. Princess jacinda will save us from covid! It’s all she’s got.
  
  Also she likes the control. She likes the power. Yesterday she announced the million people of Auckland can have takeaways tomorrow. And they were grateful. That’s power. Power is not a means to an end. Power is an end in itself.
  
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  September 21, 2021 8:07am
- Cinematic
  
  My ears perked up at the over 65 house arrest. Good luck with that Jacinda. Making silly unenforceable rules makes all the rules look silly and unenforceable.
  
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  September 21, 2021 8:12am
  - peterwn
    
    This was a suggestion, not a rule. Last year a few weeks before the first lockdown, there were strong suggestions that older people especially those with medical conditions ‘self isolate’. I know a middle aged guy who was prone to asthma who got out of Auckland well before Level 4 was announced and ‘worked from home’ at the family bach. At that time there were visions of ICU’s overflowing, shortage of ventilators, grocery shortages (eg toilet paper sales skyrocketing), etc, etc.
    
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    September 21, 2021 8:46am
    - Tony Stuart
      
      I think she’s trying to nip Winston Peters’ comeback in the bud, after he was less than complimentary of her government at the weekend!
      
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      September 21, 2021 9:33am
      - Alwynn
        
        That was precisely my thought. I suspect her nightmare is that Winston is once again reincarnated in 2023 and she has to kowtow to him if she wants to retain the Government ranks.
        Did you notice where Winston was when he was interviewed? He was up at his weekend place in North Auckland. He was obviously one of those who fled Auckland with its level 4 shutdown for the kinder climes of level 2. I wonder if anyone on the left will have a go at him for bypassing the woes of the Big Smoke where his favourite restaurants and bars are closed?
        
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        September 21, 2021 10:06am
      - sooty
        
        Nothing reported about Whinestone doing a come back! Shows how important his is!
        
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        September 21, 2021 2:54pm
    - Ed Snack
      
      Just for info as I checked, but Asthma is NOT a known risk factor with Covid. So if you or yours have asthma it is not a specific issue if you do catch Covid.
      
      Some prime factors I have seen identified are diabetes and especially diabetic complications, obesity, low Vitamin D levels, a number of lung related issues like COPD, and a compromised immune system (cancer, HIV, etc).
      
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      September 21, 2021 10:31am
  - KevO'Brien
    
    All the privileges for silly white sheilas eh?
    
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    September 21, 2021 9:13am
  - oldfella
    
    And, according to Cindy, people over 65 in Auckland who have not been vaccinated will be contacted to ask them WHY NOT!
    Sounds like a great idea. Let’s use stand-over techniques with the elderly and frighten them into submission.
    
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    September 21, 2021 11:34am
    - Benedict Yu
      
      Yeah I think that is a good idea. It is pretty stupid for anyone over 65 to not be vaccinated. They are either antivaxxers, which we can do nothing about, or asleep so they can maybe be woken up.
      
      Get vaccinated.
      
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      September 21, 2021 6:35pm
- PhilBest
  
  Who is doing the freakin’ maths on all this? Why is the curve not well and truly flattened enough at 70% vaccinated, especially considering that those at most risk of needing ICU are disproportionately represented among the vaccinated?
  
  A flattened Covid curve means Covid as a cause of death is down around number 20. Why does it have to the be sole metric among causes of death, that dictates everything we do? At some point natural immunity will do the job that the vaccinations don’t. If the 30% unvaccinated are really such a risk of being seriously infected, natural immunity will be reached quickly among them. If natural immunity is slow coming, then the rate at which they get sick won’t be a problem. Our alarmist modellers can’t have this both ways.
  
  In fact it is becoming clearer that most “infections” are asymptomatic or mild illness only that most people would not even have remarked on, just use the Strepsils and Vit C and ride it out. This is probably more the case in NZ than anywhere else in the world. It is only the mass, eye-wateringly costly use of hyper sensitive PCR that is enabling us to track asymptomatic infections, we have never done this before with any other virus and we really should regard it as a fascinating academic exercise at taxpayer expense.
  
  Probably most common viruses spread asymptomatically through populations in tandem with some proportion of the infected actually getting sick, we have just never before tracked it. Kary Mullis the inventor of PCR said it would detect almost anything in almost anyone – he was referring to the multitudes of viruses people will have picked up asymptomatically (an awful lot of people don’t understand this is what he meant).
  
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  September 21, 2021 8:12am
  - virtualmark
    
    With 1 death from over 1,000 cases in this latest outbreak I think you’ll find the vaccines are indeed flattening the curve of hospitalisations and deaths.
    
    Basically all of the people who have ended up hospitalised have been unvaccinated.
    
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    September 21, 2021 10:13am
    - All_on_Red
      
      Fat too
      
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      September 21, 2021 11:10am
    - PhilBest
      
      Yes but that could be a factor of the superspreading event having been in a community with low vaccination rates. Breakthrough infections are a thing all over the world and it should be obvious that “the environment in which infection occurs” is still the most important thing.
      
      I don’t mind predicting that if and when Delta Covid gets into an environment where vaccination rates are high but the environment is high risk due to inadequate ventilation for the numbers of people there, we will see a soaring rate of “vaccinated infected”.
      
      If anything, I say that explosions in breakthrough infections; “vaccinated infected”; occur as an inevitability any time restrictions are relaxed and people assume safety “because vaxxed”. I suspect that this is the determinant more than the alleged “waning effectiveness of the vaccine”. I suspect that if the serious challenge to the vaccinated (i.e. a high risk environment) occurred at 6 weeks it would have very little different outcomes to what has happened at 6 months.
      
      No-one is trying to tease out the right correlations because there are still outdated assumptions prevailing about how infection even spreads, and the vaccine trials made no attempt to differentiate between severe infection in a high risk environment, versus mild infection from a weak exposure. The trials were done in summer, too, guaranteeing a much lower level of challenge of their effectiveness.
      
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      September 21, 2021 11:48am
- cmm
  
  “Jacinda says that all unvaccinated people in Auckland over the age of 65 need to stay at home. ”
  
  This is a polarising them-and-us tactic. And, worse yet, it is working because so many people believe that the vaccination stops transmission.
  
  Many, if not most, believe that talking to an unvaccinated person could get you infected and that unvaccinated people put everyone at risk. All complete rubbish.
  
  When the virus does become endemic, unvaccinated people will be the scapegoat. They will go under the bus. Cindy tried, but the unvaccinated people let the team of 5 million down.
  
  In 6 months or so, I’ll bet we’re hearing people on the radio calling unvaccinated people murderers when 95-year old granny dies.
  
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  September 21, 2021 8:17am
  - Paulus
    
    It is an Ardern Command for unvaccinated oldies to stay at home.
    This morning in an interview Bloomfield effectively that the Ardern has done her own decision making despite what he and others have recommended so its now down to political Captains Choice.
    Not sure how much longer Bloomfield will be there saying things like that, after all it is the truth.
    
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    September 21, 2021 8:28am
    - DeepBlue
      
      I wondered if the 65+ request was a Captain’s Call, as Dr. Ashley didn’t mention it.
      
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      September 21, 2021 10:07am
    - cmm
      
      The mere fact that Bloomfield is not more independent and vocal shows that:
      1) He is really a politician – not a health person.
      2) He is there as a “beard”, giving Cindy the smokescreen of medical legitimacy for what she’s doing.
      3) He’s not earning his (insert fat salary here).
      
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      September 21, 2021 10:11am
      - Tom Hunter
        
        He is really a politician – not a health person.
        
        Shades of Dr Fauci then, who at 80 fucking years of age, with forty years in the saddle, is the highest paid employee of the US government, and who should have been fired years ago for his fuckup during the AIDS crisis.
        
        But he’s the modern Sir Humphrey: a bureaucratic survivor. Certainly more politician than doctor.
        
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        September 21, 2021 11:17am
      - krazykiwi
        
        Speaking of Fauci, this clip: –
        
        Biden’s White House medical advisor Dr Fauci on previously infected Americans and why they should still get vaccinated if shown to have stronger NATURAL IMMUNITY:
        
        “I don’t have a really firm answer for you on that”
        
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        September 21, 2021 4:04pm
  - Benedict Yu
    
    Yes I think you are correct. But within 12 months it should be apparent to everyone that many vaccinated people are becoming infected with COVID. And not like the 1 in 100 breakthrough infections like the measles vaccine. More like 40 in 100.
    
    As I have said before, our health experts must be aware of the UK and Israel data.
    
    Just to note I have submitted an Official Information Act request to the ministry of health.
    
    “Could I please have copies of any advice provided to Ministers on the longevity of the effectiveness of COVID vaccines, including but not limited to, the data from Israel and the UK on COVID vaccine effectiveness.”
    
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    September 21, 2021 8:33am
    - Odakyu-sen
      
      “But within 12 months it should be apparent to everyone that many vaccinated people are becoming infected with novel coronavirus strain __* .”
      
      Fixed it for you.
      
      *: The latest strain of the coronavirus to appear.
      
      Think of the coronavirus as like the flu virus. It mutates a lot. Vaccines are strain-specific. The vaccine will still work (on the old strain), but there won’t be a lot of the old strain in the environment.
      
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      September 21, 2021 8:55am
      - Benedict Yu
        
        “Vaccines are strain-specific.:
        
        No. Totally not correct for COVID vaccine.
        
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        September 21, 2021 9:40am
      - cmm
        
        BU: Yup, the CV19 vaccine doesn’t work for any of them.
        
        Naah, come on, it is strain specific. Strain specificity is not a binary thing of work/don’t work. It can have reduced effectiveness for some strains.
        
        There is data to suggest that its effectiveness on delta is different and there are major concerns that Mu will be even more problematic.
        
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        September 21, 2021 10:14am
    - virtualmark
      
      Benedict, none of the vaccine manufacturers promised protection from *infection*. Their pragmatic goal was to reduce hospitalisations and deaths.
      
      That is also the case for the flu vaccines … there is a significant “breakthrough” infection rate with the annual flu vaccine but those breakthrough cases are very mild.
      
      That may just be the best medical science can achieve with flu viruses.
      
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      September 21, 2021 10:16am
      - Surely Knott
        
        @ Virtual Mark – “none of the vaccine manufacturers promised protection from *infection*
        
        ” From the World Health Org describing how we can attain Herd Immunity: ” Vaccinated people are protected from getting the disease in question and passing on the pathogen, breaking any chains of transmission. . ” Is that what our current vaccines do.
        
        https://www.who.int/news-room/q-a-detail/herd-immunity-lockdowns-and-covid-19?gclid=CjwKCAjw4qCKBhAVEiwAkTYsPCQmgwLUA-iYPHmv8UyyV4UeUXisTQTU2tXmMh0VOhBrD4mbeae1mxoCNAMQAvD_BwE#
        
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        September 21, 2021 12:49pm
      - krazykiwi
        
        virtualmark, Imagine a survey given to a randomly selected group of NZers in 2019.
        
        “Which is the following is the primary purpose of a vaccination
        
        1. To prevent the vaccinated person contracting the disease
        
        2. To prevent the vaccinated person speadding illness
        
        3. To reduce the disease severity if the vaccinated person becomes ill
        
        Which would be the most selected answer?
        
        I posit #1, because this is what people have been raised to believe is the purpose of a vaccine. Your “none of the vaccine manufacturers promised protection from *infection*” may be technically correct, but it highlights the extent of the misleading information published by supposedly trusted public health entities like our MoH.
        
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        September 21, 2021 3:52pm
    - Show me the evidence
      
      That is one thing that baffles me, and I admit makes me a little wary of the Pfizer produced data – the difference between Pfizer clinical trial results on efficacy and the real world data coming out of Israel (exclusively used Pf), UK (used Pf/Moderna on <40yrs), Qatar (exclusively Pf) , Singapore (Pf/Moderna) etc. The 2 month trial data is on Medsafe (95% VE), and you can find the latest 6 month data in the pre-print study on https://www.medrxiv.org/(91% VE). These numbers are clearly higher than the reality of the countries above that have high vax rates. You would expect a difference but 40-60% vs 91%?
      
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      September 21, 2021 1:41pm
  - KevO'Brien
    
    In 6 months or so we will be wondering about what happened at Christmas when the shops were empty and many lost their jobs. When the economic tsunami arrives it will be a show stopper.
    The heat will be on Cinders in her fireplace then.
    
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    September 21, 2021 9:19am
    - cmm
      
      That won’t happen.
      
      Robbo will just print cash until the next time they lose an election. Then it’s someone else’s problem to clean up after the party.
      
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      September 21, 2021 10:15am
      - Ruahine
        
        Parliament has voted that the Gov’t can print another $41 billion.
        
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        September 21, 2021 10:30am
      - KevO'Brien
        
        Robbo can’t produce stock to fill shelves.
        I have just come back from a very bleak looking major home supplies company.
        My needs were specialised and I noticed that stock of them had gone down in the last month. My wife couldn’t basic sheets.
        The people won’t tolerate much more. Supermarket prices are rising too.
        
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        September 21, 2021 2:33pm
    - Paulus
      
      Nah ! the ladies will still love her in the morning.
      
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      September 21, 2021 10:24am
    - ecco
      
      Yes that’s the only time her support base will understand the damage to their lives, when they lose their jobs. This could be a long way off judging by the amount of taxpayer debt Ardern and Robertson are prepared to throw at this.
      
      With the control and censorship Ardern has over the media her voters are only getting one side of the story the whole time and there’s no dialogue of contrasting views on her elimination approach that’s not hidden behind a paywall. You only have to sign up to a few overseas sites to see the one sided, pro government coverage here.
      
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      September 21, 2021 11:47am
  - krazykiwi
    
    so many people believe that the vaccination stops transmission
    
    MOH claim that …
    
    It’s harder to find out how well the vaccine stops people passing on (transmitting) the COVID-19 virus. Recent studies show that the Pfizer vaccine can reduce transmission of the virus.
    
    The MoH is essentially lying. It is now absolutely clear that being vaccinated has no impact whatsoever on transmission. Close to 100% of the research I’ve read shows this, and posting an unqualified reference to ‘recent studies’ is reprehensible.
    
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    September 21, 2021 10:12am
    - virtualmark
      
      krazy, there are several rigorous studies saying that the risk of *infection* in vaccinated people is about 40% of that in unvaccinated people.
      
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      September 21, 2021 10:17am
    - Ed Snack
      
      I think it can reduce, so is essentially correct. If vaccination reduces one’s chance of actually catching the disease (or being symptomatic) then that does reduce the chance of passing the virus on.
      
      You can’t pass it on if you don’t have it, and with possible exceptions, asymptomatic carriers have low viral loads which reduces spread.
      
      It isn’t a strong prevention, but it isn’t actually an untrue statement. What it hides is that even if vaccinated, if you contract Covid and display symptoms, you are at least as infectious as an unvaccinated person. And your chances of catching Covid if vaccinated are, as Benedict points out, considerable.
      
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      September 21, 2021 10:37am
      - Benedict Yu
        
        “and with possible exceptions, asymptomatic carriers have low viral loads which reduces spread.”
        
        Sadly that is incorrect. All the most recent evidence shows that vaccinated people with no or mild symptoms are highly infectious. That’s why there is no stopping COVID spreading. I can’t emphasise this enough.
        
        https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2021/07/30/1022867219/cdc-study-provincetown-delta-vaccinated-breakthrough-mask-guidance
        
        “It [the study] also found no significant difference in the viral load present in the breakthrough infections occurring in fully vaccinated people and the other cases, suggesting the viral load of vaccinated and unvaccinated persons infected with the coronavirus is similar.”
        
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        September 21, 2021 3:44pm
- Chuck Bird
  
  “I think 90 percent of the eligible population will be impossible. That is because the eligible population is 12 and over. ”
  
  The measure here and in Oz is eligible population.
  
  They still will not get to 85% let alone 90%.
  
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  September 21, 2021 8:22am
  - hullkiwi
    
    Chuck, it is a statistic. They will bend it.
    
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    September 21, 2021 8:30am
  - Ed Snack
    
    I don’t see why it is impossible, difficult maybe, but if we get alternative vaccines to remove what I see as a major blocking point – the “untested technology of mRNA vaccines” – then maybe enough of the doubters will go ahead if they see it as safe enough.
    
    Same for any group, high compliance is quite possible if the benefit to risk ratio is perceived as sufficiently positive.
    
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    September 21, 2021 10:40am
    - Don Beckett
      
      Correct. I’m not taking an experimental gene therapy. Novavax all the way.
      
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      September 21, 2021 11:23am
- ecco
  
  Ardern very poll driven though. At the next bad poll (where are any approval rating polls – are her media lackeys being told not to run any at the moment?) she’ll be telling us she’s been talking about 90% rate on first vaccinations, not fully vaccinated all along. As she’s cunning and devious, she’ll slice and dice the numbers any way she can to justify her about turns.
  
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  September 21, 2021 11:41am
- Ra Henare
  
  I suggest they are gaming the English language.
  ie 90% having had one shot.
  
  While the science will say 2 shots
  
  Like you I think they are pissing in the wind.
  
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  September 21, 2021 3:40pm
Captain Mainwaring

I thought Maori Language Week was last week.
So why are Prime and NewsHub still bombarding us with all this TeReo bullshit?
Just like the place names on the weather – still in place after last year’s Maori Language week.
Seems like it’s a permanent thing.
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September 21, 2021 8:02am
- Paulus
  
  Did you really think that Maori Language week was not going to be permanently extended ?
  Stop dreaming of the good times.
  
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  September 21, 2021 8:30am
- Benedict Yu
  
  It’s a permanent thing. At least you don’t need to sing Maori songs like the public servants so at meetings.
  
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  September 21, 2021 8:35am
  - plc
    
    And attend the weekly two hour practice sessions (Department of Internal Affairs)
    
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    September 21, 2021 8:54am
  - cmm
    
    I hope you charge them double time for that!
    
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    September 21, 2021 8:59am
  - KevO'Brien
    
    I hope none of those “songs” include the word “mauri”.
    
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    September 21, 2021 9:22am
  - KiWombat
    
    In our house we have abandoned “Shortland Street” which used to run in the background so that we could listen rather than watch. Recently the amount of Maori in that show has rendered it unable for us to understand, so we have a break from TV at 7 now, or listen to a re-run of the news.
    
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    September 21, 2021 10:06am
    - lifesgood
      
      Can’t you find something better to watch? Like Sky News for example.
      
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      September 21, 2021 10:39am
      - Fuzzysnuggleduck
        
        Netflix, Chromecast; Youtube, a host of online content providers like Amazon, Disney, etc.
        Smart TVs, Apple TV etc. etc.
        So much is available now.
        
        Shortland Street was always terrible, even at its best.
        Been a few Shortie confessionals on KB recently.
        
        Sweet Jesus, I thought we represented an ABOVE average intelligence sample of NZers. 😉
        This implies the average person is a smidgen above making mud pies and playing with road kill for entertainment…
        
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        September 21, 2021 12:30pm
      - curry4me
        
        lifesgood: Or the lawn growing?
        
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        September 21, 2021 2:06pm
- tf78
  
  Cptn – it started at Maori Language Week last year and never stopped.
  
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  September 21, 2021 9:09am
- oldfella
  
  TV3 last night told us that the Broadcasting Complaints Authority will no longer accept complaints about the use of Te Reo on regular (non-Maori) TV news programmes. So if you want to challenge it… tough!
  
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  September 21, 2021 11:41am
  - Nickc2
    
    Arrogant bastards! My wish is that SKY TV News does a News Show relevant to NZ and the rest of the world with a promise of absolutely no Te Reo spoken whatsoever. I’m picking that would be a viewer winner in NZ and although not initially profitable to the Murdoch empire, I think it will over time or even be used as a loss-leader.
    If this were to happen, it could also serve up non-partisan political opinion leading into the next and subsequent elections (if we are still allowed to have such things).
    
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    September 21, 2021 12:42pm
    - DaleK
      
      Unlikely. Have you seen the amount of Maori virtue signaling in their sports coverage these days?
      
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      September 21, 2021 2:03pm
      - Nickc2
        
        I thought that was just for their Maori Language week? Never mind, I’ll tell Rupert to get rid of that as well. /sarc
        
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        September 21, 2021 2:41pm
curry4me

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8hnZtRbA_0

AUKUS: Why Are France and China so Angry About This Pact? – TLDR News.

On Wednesday night, US President Joe Biden, UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson and Australian Prime Minister Scott Morrison announced a new security pact: AUKUS. The agreement has since sparked anger in both France for a perceived snubbing of their own deal with Australia, and China, who see this as an “incredibly irresponsible” move. [8:21]
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September 21, 2021 8:03am
- hullkiwi
  
  The irony of France getting upset, is that France was not a member of NATO because of the French nuclear programme had them at odds with NATO. A trade deal gets done that excludes France and they get the hump?
  
  Puts Major’s support for French nuclear tests in the 1990s into perspective. Nothing about defence, all about trade with France.
  
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  September 21, 2021 8:34am
  - curry4me
    
    hullkiwi: Yes, I agree. And in 1954, DeGaulle made Eisenhower pay for the Vietnam war in exchange for France staying in NATO. That didn’t end well.
    
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    September 21, 2021 2:08pm
    - Nickc2
      
      An American going through customs at Charles de Gaulle Airport in Paris recently was told by a Customs Officer “but Monsieur you cannot come in, you don’t have a Visa”. To which the American replied, “young man, I didn’t need on in June 44 either”. Needless to say, the American passed through customs without any further comment.
      The French have very short memories!
      
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      September 21, 2021 2:34pm
      - curry4me
        
        Nick2: I understand a lot of the locals at the invasion sites are very nice to American, and British tourists. It’s the ‘elite’ that are different.
        
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        September 21, 2021 8:34pm
- Ehlana
  
  Can’t see why China is upset. They’re miles away from Australia, America and the UK.
  
  Unless, of course, they were planning some mischief near Australia?
  
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  September 21, 2021 10:12am
  - curry4me
    
    Ehlana: China, up to no good? Color me surprised.
    
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    September 21, 2021 2:09pm
- Phronesis
  
  Well it’s pretty obvious why they couldn’t include France.
  
  Who’s going to take a military alliance seriously when its called FAUKUS…
  
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  September 21, 2021 10:15am
  - oldfella
    
    Phronesis, it could also have been called FUKAUS. Which is what the French would like to do to Australia at the moment.
    
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    September 21, 2021 11:45am
  - curry4me
    
    Phronesis: Yes, and deisel subs are rather noisy compared to their stealthy nuclear powered counterparts.
    
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    September 21, 2021 2:11pm
- virtualmark
  
  Shrug.
  
  Diplomatic statements like France’s and China’s are intended for domestic audiences. It’s performance theatre. Behind the scenes the real government-to-government discussions will be more pragmatic.
  
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  September 21, 2021 10:20am
curry4me

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zowIM_g_A0o

Undercover Federal Agent Arrested at Justice For J6, Internet Destroys the Glowies!

Undercover federal agent gets Arrested at the Justice for J6 rally and protest in Washington DC. The Internet immediately spots federal agents (glowies) and Destroyed them on the internet. Very funny. #January6th #Trump #Biden
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September 21, 2021 8:04am
Steve Todd

krazykiwi!

Further to our exchange on Sunday, I have produced a breakdown of valid Overseas Special (Party) Votes cast for the five successful parties at the 2020 General Election. As you know, an overall total of 61,037 such votes were cast.

Here is a summary of my calculations—

South Island General Electorates (16)

ACT NZ 515 (4.12%), Green Party 2,470 (19.75%), Labour 6,813 (54.46%), Māori Party 33 (0.26%), National 1,839 (14.70%), Others 839 (6.71%) — Total 12,509 (100.00%)

North Island General Electorates (49)

ACT NZ 2,016 (4.46%), Green Party 8,642 (19.10%), Labour 23,887 (52.79%), Māori Party 175 (0.39%), National 7,314 (16.16%), Others 3,215 (7.11%) — Total 45,249 (100.01%)

General Electorates (65)

ACT NZ 2,531 (4.38%), Green Party 11,112 (19.24%), Labour 30,700 (53.15%), Māori Party 208 (0.36%), National 9,153 (15.85%), Others 4,054 (7.02%) — Total 57,758 (100.00%)

Māori Electorates (7)

ACT NZ 34 (1.04%), Green Party 419 (12.78%), Labour 1,846 (56.30%), Māori Party 366 (11.16%), National 80 (2.44%), Others 534 (16.29%) — Total 3,279 (100.01%)

Totals

ACT NZ 2,565 (4.20%), Green Party 11,531 (18.89%), Labour 32,546 (53.32%), Māori Party 574 (0.94%), National 9,233 (15.13%), Others 4,588 (7.52%) — Total 61,037 (100.00%).

To see what the situation would have been had there been no Overseas voting, I ran the Party votes for the five successful parties (less the total number of Overseas Special Votes in each case)* through the Electoral Commission’s MMP seat allocation calculator. There was no change to the number of seats allocated to each party (being L 65, N 33, A 10, G 10, and M 2).

* Labour 1,410,999, National 729,042, ACT NZ 216,466, Green Party 215,226, and Māori Party 33,056.

I hope you get some use out of these figures.
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September 21, 2021 8:04am
- I remember when
  
  Perhaps the most interesting thing about the overseas voting breakdown is as an indication of the younger voters preferences.
  It would be even better if there was a breakdown into male and female voters.
  How would it correspond with the present polls.
  
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  September 21, 2021 8:16am
- Tony Stuart
  
  I can recall when overseas and special votes always favoured National, because Labour voters apparently couldn’t afford to travel.
  
  These days the Greens throw a whole lot of resource at the overseas vote, including sending MP’s to the UK, USA and Europe to campaign
  
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  September 21, 2021 9:37am
  - Steve Todd
    
    These days the Greens throw a whole lot of resource at the overseas vote, […].
    
    Which they’re perfectly entitled to do, of course.
    
    Maybe many Labour and Green supporters left for overseas after the 2017 election, meaning they could vote in 2020, whereas many National and ACT supporters, overseas since before the 2017 election, left it too late to return at least once, couldn’t get an MIQ space, so were unable to vote in 2020.
    
    On the other hand, as you imply, the demographics of overseas voters appears to be changing, not to mention the increased number who vote. The number of valid Overseas Special Votes during the MMP era are—
    
    1996 – 12,728; 1999 – 11,482; 2002 – 16,879; 2005 – 27,482; 2008 – 32,461; 2011 – 20,269; 2014 – 38,264; 2017 – 58,952; 2020 – 61,037.
    
    (No idea what happened in 2011.)
    
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    September 21, 2021 10:21am
    - plc
      
      GFC……no jobs for millenials
      
      6 0
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      September 21, 2021 11:01am
    - ecco
      
      Hopefully with the MIQ lobby system clusterf**k yesterday Ardern will have pissed off a lot of those overseas voters and their families that vote Green Party/labour from overseas. It’s around 25k people that are pissed off with that idiotic system isn’t it?They may see things differently now that they are effectively locked out of coming back, possibly even till past xmas.
      
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      September 21, 2021 12:20pm
- krazykiwi
  
  Steve, hey this is really useful. Thanks for compiling it. It would good if the Electoral Commission provided this analysis as part of their election datasets.. to save us punters from trawling spreadsheets!
  
  At first blush it appears that: –
  – the o/seas Green vote proportion exceeds the local Green vote
  – the o/seas Labour vote proportion is on par with the local Labour vote
  – the o/seas National/Act vote proportion is lower than the local vote.
  
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  September 21, 2021 10:20am
  - Steve Todd
    
    You’re welcome, kk.
    
    As soon as I started collating the figures, I was surprised at the Green Party and National percentages. I would have expected them to be reversed.
    
    It would seem that the OE is still very much a thing.
    
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    September 21, 2021 10:32am
- curry4me
  
  Steve Todd: Thanks for those figures.
  
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  September 21, 2021 2:12pm
  - Steve Todd
    
    Thanks, curry4me.
    
    It turned out not to be quite the onerous task I thought it would be when I started on Sunday night.
    
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    September 21, 2021 3:08pm
    - curry4me
      
      Steve Todd: Onerous, or not, it was a job well done.
      
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      September 21, 2021 8:37pm
Ruawai

Bloomfield interviewed by Hosking this morning said his relationship with the Government is like a marriage where they disagree in private but in public they agree. This is not very open and transparent, the public should know the actual opinions of both the Government and the Ministry of Health even if their opinions differ.
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September 21, 2021 8:05am
- Maggy Wassilieff
  
  Absolutely pathetic.
  
  His Duty of Care is to the Health of the People of NZ not to pleasing the Government of the Day.
  
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  September 21, 2021 8:31am
  - Albert_Ross
    
    Which other civil servants do you think should publicly say so when they disagree with their Minister?
    
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    September 21, 2021 9:24am
  - Tony Stuart
    
    The rub is Maggy that the Public Service CEO’s serve effectively at the pleasure of the PM, in that if she or the relevant Minister says they have lost confidence in the CEO or the department, the CEO’s position becomes untenable.
    
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    September 21, 2021 9:39am
  - virtualmark
    
    Not quite true.
    
    The public service serve the Government of the day. Not the Opposition. And only indirectly the people. They are there to advise the Government and, as needed, implement the Government’s policy agenda … which in turn has been endorsed by the people at an election.
    
    For example, something that’s not widely understood, when there is a change of Government then advice provided to the previous Government is not directly available to the new Government. A new Cabinet minister can’t just trawl through the advice given to the minister in the previous Government.
    
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    September 21, 2021 10:24am
- virtualmark
  
  You can always OIA the advice from the Ministry of Health. And they may actually pro-actively release it anyway.
  
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  September 21, 2021 8:36am
- Nickc2
  
  Exactly, they are Public Servants FFS. As such, they must be answerable to the public, not to each other.
  
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  September 21, 2021 9:37am
  - MCos
    
    I think you’ll find the Director General of Health reports to the Minister of Health.
    
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    September 21, 2021 1:02pm
    - Nickc2
      
      Nothing like a vacant space eh?
      
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      September 21, 2021 1:36pm
cmm

If bribery is the new way to manipulate people for health outcomes, then there is definitely something worth looking at:

Obesity.

In NZ, the major causes of early death are cancers of various stripes, heart problems and strokes. A bit further down the list is type 2 diabetes. Obesity is a major player in all of these and also contributes to damaging overall health.

In this age of CV19 worries, it is also a major influence of your need to cope with CV19. The extra cardiovascular stresses of obesity mean that your body has less chance of fighting any infections – requiring more hospitalisations and resulting in more deaths.

Overall, reduced obesity would have a far better impact on health outcomes than having the jab.

Since bribery is the new way, then how about bribing people with lotto tickets to motivate them out of obesity?

Here’s an example scheme:
* Each person gets 5 lotto tickets if their BMI is below 30.
* 1 ticket if BMI between 30 and 35.
* Zero tickets if over 35.

Six months later have a follow up, but also have a bonus of 2 tickets for anyone that was obese and reduced their BMI by at least 2.

Of course this will be seen as racist/unfair. Obesity has never been raised as a significant health risk from the Podium Of Truth. Nor are obesity stats being published for hospitalisation/death cases.

Denying people this vital information might seem kind, but it is the grossest form of unkindness.

Imagine if a concerted anti-obesity drive had started 18 months ago. In 18 months fatties could have easily lost 25kgs moving them from high risk to low risk and changing their lives. While CV19 fear might have been a motivator, far greater benefits would have been elsewhere.

C’mon Cindy show you care!
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September 21, 2021 8:05am
- Cinematic
  
  Yep, this is a great idea!
  
  Think of all the money an I’m Not Fat Lottery could save NZ. Billions.
  
  I’m pretty sure in Japan they have some BMI targets that are applied? But sadly no lottery.
  
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  September 21, 2021 8:20am
  - Odakyu-sen
    
    It’s so much easier to stay slim in Japan.
    
    Ref: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lr4MmmWQtZM
    
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    September 21, 2021 8:59am
    - Cinematic
      
      Very interesting. Thanks for sharing.
      
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      September 21, 2021 11:21am
- DaleK
  
  Lets just literally pay people to lose weight and quit smoking. Say, $1000 per kilo lost over a 12 month period and $10,000 to cease smoking ( to prove commitment). There would be plenty of families who could actually save for a house deposit simply by modifying their lifestyles and at the same time improve their overall life and life expectancy. I guess people could put the weight back on after the year or start smoking again, however I bet that most people would prefer their new healthy lifestyle and wouldn’t want to go back. It would save the health system a fortune.
  
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  September 21, 2021 8:23am
  - Cinematic
    
    Could become a career choice. Fatten up in winter slim down in summer. The Oprah Winfrey effect.
    
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    September 21, 2021 8:54am
- Phronesis
  
  We could extend this to paying criminals 100K a year to stay out of prison. Still cheaper than funding prisons, courts, police etc.
  
  This is of course the sort of policy you think is great when you have no principles and fail to understand the medium and long term consequences of your actions. I’m sure Cindy will be implementing this soon.
  
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  September 21, 2021 10:24am
  - curry4me
    
    Phronesis: I think California is paying gang bangers to refrain from shooting each other.
    
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    September 21, 2021 2:16pm
CPB

Morning all, would appreciate some support from the Kiwiblog community to sign and share this new petition far and wide.

https://www.change.org/kiwis4xmas

With the elimination strategy dropped in all but name and vaccinations going strong, we no longer have a good reason to lock our fellow Kiwis out of the country for a second Christmas.

To make it easy for the Government we’re only asking that vaccinated NZ Passport holders skip MIQ with a pre-departure test and then a test on arrival (isolate at home till results comes back). It’s the logical step to start engaging with the world again and begin to shed our fear.
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September 21, 2021 8:07am
- cmm
  
  “To make it easy for the Government we’re only asking that vaccinated NZ Passport holders skip MIQ”
  
  See, this is exactly the sort of bullshit I am talking about.
  
  There is no solid data to back the idea that vaccinations stop transmission. Therefore vaccination status should have nothing to do with MIQ. Therefore giving people a free pass through MIQ if they are vaccinated makes no sense. It would, however, provide coercive pressure on people to get vaccinated.
  
  What would probably be more meaningful would be to give people antibody tests. Unfortunately those are banned in NZ.
  
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  September 21, 2021 9:06am
  - CPB
    
    I don’t disgree – but you play the game in front of you. The point of opening to the vaccinated first reflects that they are highly unlikely to need medical treatment if they do bring Covid in, or get it here, regardless of their age. And the Government has already flagged this is what they will do.
    
    It’s asking for a PDT and test on arrival that gives greater confidence for the Govt and general public on catching cases before they reach the community.
    
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    September 21, 2021 9:14am
    - Ed Snack
      
      Not highly unlikely at all, less likely sure, but still depressingly likely.
      
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      September 21, 2021 10:44am
  - tf78
    
    cmm, anything that could expose the fraud of this government i.e. Saliva testing, antibody testing and the availability of treatments for Covid. If all that is exposed, people will realize they’ve been done like a dinner.
    
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    September 21, 2021 9:21am
  - Benedict Yu
    
    Well actually there is solid data. Lots of it. The vaccines are about 70 percent effective, declining to 30 – 40 percent after 9 months. Nobody know what happens after that.
    
    Anyway in the real world, demanding that the Government allow unvaccinated people to enter New Zealand without being vaccinated would kill the petition. That is never happening in the forseeable future. In fact most airlines won’t take you. Not sure where Air New Zealand is at but Qantas has said no unvaccinated people on their planes. No exceptions. Simple as that. So if Air New Zealand does the same, how are these unvaccinated people going to get here?
    
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    September 21, 2021 9:28am
    - Sacha
      
      Air NZ could run a lottery for an ‘unvaccinated’ flight – I can only imagine the numbers of people who would throw away their vax certificates to get on a flight –
      
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      September 21, 2021 9:49am
    - cmm
      
      “The vaccines are about 70 percent effective”
      
      70% effective at what?
      
      Reducing hospitalisation: yes. Reducing transmission: no.
      
      The purpose of MIQ is to stop transmission.
      
      If skipping MIQ is based on chance of hospitalisation, then I suggest it would be as sensible making MIQ only for grossly obese people.
      
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      September 21, 2021 10:22am
      - Benedict Yu
        
        I’m not going to keep battling you on this – the data is crystal clear. The vaccines are highly effective (about 70 percent) effective at stopping transmission but this declines to about 40 percent after 9 months. Protection against hospitalisation is more than 95 percent, and declines slowly.
        
        I’m not going to endlessly post links to totally compelling data for you.
        
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        September 21, 2021 3:49pm
      - cmm
        
        There are two types of risk when it comes to transmission:
        1) Personal risk.
        2) Population risk.
        
        Let’s roll with the 70% number (although it drops off with time). That might reduce an individual’s chance of transmitting the virus. This has no actual benefit to an individual. What matters to an individual is if they develop disease (and how badly).
        
        But 70% is nowhere near good enough to provide herd immunity (ie. benefit to a population). Herd immunity needs over 95% (with zero reduction over many years) to prevent the spread of a virus through a population.
        
        Or, stated differently, 70% means that 30% (growing to 50% or more) are still going to transmit the virus. That might slow the spread slightly (ie. help flatten the curve) but it will not stop the spread through a population.
        
        As you have said before, it’s going to make it through the whole population – vaccinated or not.
        
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        September 21, 2021 5:26pm
    - virtualmark
      
      Benedict,
      
      The Pfizer vaccine, to use an example, is about 60% effective at reducing infection, over 90% effective at reducing hospitalisation and over 95% effective at reducing deaths.
      
      It’s effectiveness wanes at different rates depending on the robustness of the person’s immune system. For healthy adults it should provide adequate protection for at least 2 years (based on results seen to date). But the 65+ age group will likely need boosters at 6-12 months after their original two doses. The under 20 age group probably only need one dose, not two.
      
      It’s clear the travel rules (for airlines, health insurers and immigration) will soon require full vaccination. Won’t stop transmission/infections though … but it’s inevitable it will become endemic through our population anyway. Que sera sera.
      
      Realistically we are all going to be exposed to Covid before the end of 2022.
      
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      September 21, 2021 10:30am
    - Ed Snack
      
      Which of course should be recognised as stupid given that people who have had and recovered from Covid are far, far, safer passengers than the merely “vaccinated”.
      
      That is presuming there is no exception to vaccination by proving that one has natural immunity.
      
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      September 21, 2021 10:45am
- Tony Stuart
  
  Signed and shared on Twitter 😀
  
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  September 21, 2021 9:56am
  - tf78
    
    Tony, have you signed Hobson’s Choice – New Zealand not Aotearoa petition? 14,437 signatures so far.
    
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    September 21, 2021 9:59am
- curry4me
  
  CPB: Thanks for posting the link. I signed, and will put it on my FB page.
  
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  September 21, 2021 2:21pm
Yabster

The Three Waters $120B grab – what you’re not being told
The three waters are drinking water, wastewater and stormwater. The Three Waters Plan (that you may have seen advertisements for) is a tricky co-governance plan for central government to get control of our assets which are managed by our local councils. After more than 60 iwi-only meetings, the Government and tribal leaders have divided New Zealand into four massive, unwieldy zones. Each zone will take ownership and control of our water and water-related infrastructure.

Who will be in control?

Each zone will have a mega agency, managed 50:50 by tribal and council appointees on a 12-member board. For instance, the 20 local authorities in the South Island entity will have only six seats in total, despite contributing all infrastructure. One tribe there will have the other six seats. Those tribal representatives will, in effect, have a veto over what your community gets and pays as 75% of the board must agree on all decisions.

Is co-governance a fair structure?

Based on the performance of existing co-governance entities, no they’re not. The public representatives have nothing at stake, so choose an easy life, taking their pay while agreeing to whatever the tribal appointees demand. And demand they do, often in an intimidating way.

How does this affect you?

Each water agency will decide what services you get or not, how well pipes are maintained or not, how quickly repairs are done or not, and where new infrastructure will be built or not. Most importantly, they will decide how much you pay, whether you receive any benefit or not. Private landowners, businesses and farms will be vulnerable to tribal agendas and conflicts of interest.

Will the board be answerable to you?

No. Board members are not elected. There is no way to challenge them, to make them accountable, to avoid conflicts of interest, or to remedy poor decision-making or damage done.

Will councils be paid for assets we ratepayers funded?

No. The Government will borrow money to settle any Council debt on existing water infrastructure, but they won’t buy the asset. They’ll simply confiscate billions of dollars of value, paid for by generations of ratepayers. Councils will no longer have water infrastructure as an asset to use as security for borrowing. This will undermine council viability.

The Government claims improved water services. Is this credible?

No it’s not. Independent experts have reviewed government’s estimates of cost reductions and say the figures are “founded on unsound evidence and faulty analysis” (Castalia) and “should not be relied on to project actual expenditure, revenue and pricing outcomes” (Farrier).

Are councils in favour of Three Waters?
Councils have less than two weeks to decide. Many are saying “NO” to Three Waters, many are so far sitting on the fence, some are in favour. Cash-strapped councils are being pressured by financial inducements from central government to support the confiscation.

Do councils have to consult with their communities?

Councils are legally bound to consult ratepayers over major decisions on water. Unfortunately, the Government’s determination suggests they may pass special legislation to nullify this democratic requirement.

Why do some call this a silent ‘revolution’?

It fits. The Government’s Three Waters proposal involves the dismantling of our democracy, the denial of access by individuals to decision-makers, and the loss of accountability to affected communities.

YOU CAN HELP –

Demand a referendum. Please contact your councillor today or tomorrow and demand a right to vote on whether or not your community wants to give your three waters infrastructure to central government, to be managed by just six council representatives (from all the councils in your water zone) and six iwi appointees.
Copy this page and deliver into letter boxes in your neighbourhood or email to others.
NOTE: Three Waters is part of the He Puapua plan to set up two governments for New Zealand, one by Maori for Maori, and the other, a fully bicultural government for everyone else. This system would be subject to a tribal monitoring committee.

Pass this on to friends and family
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September 21, 2021 8:13am
- Ra Henare
  
  In Tauranga the consultation is by putting up a web page and asking for comments.
  
  https://www.tauranga.govt.nz/council/water-services/three-waters-reform
  
  Needless to say the Mahuta appointed Commissioners are already progressing Tauranga’s acquiescence.
  
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  September 21, 2021 8:42am
- kevn
  
  @Yab… Very good summation.
  
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  September 21, 2021 8:43am
- surfing
  
  It is even worse…. the government cannot answer basic questions about how three waters will be function…
  
  https://www.nzherald.co.nz/bay-of-plenty-times/news/confusion-and-concerns-continue-over-three-waters-reform/7GCXZV4REXEOPHFY6QIJYAEICY/
  
  Tolley…
  The community’s views were currently “pretty negative” due to a lack of information, she said.
  “In fact, even if we were to go to a referendum we haven’t got a specific proposal to put in front of the people.
  “We can’t answer all of the questions that are being asked of us by the ratepayers who own the assets.
  
  Government is taking our assets, and telling us to trust them…. I think they’ll hand them to the maori, and make the bay of plenty pay for water upgrades in the waikato.
  
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  September 21, 2021 9:36am
- marcw
  
  Yabster, you could at the least have the courtesy of acknowledging the fact that this is a verbatim copy of the Hobson’s Choice campain.
  
  https://www.hobsonspledge.nz/the_three_waters_120b_grab_what_you_re_not_being_told
  
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  September 21, 2021 10:27am
  - Yabster
    
    Next time I will Marc- its not a “campaign” though -its just giving the public the facts to make an educated choice or at least be informed, unlike the TV ads propaganda.
    
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    September 21, 2021 3:23pm
- blue collar
  
  I’m the guy who installs the sewer n stormwater n watermains . There is no way in hell a centralised system will work . Each council has unique soils/sands/rock , unique knowledge of how , why and where everything works , amongst the local body and workers .
  It’s our ratepayer assets and works just fine at the moment . If the govt wants to help , donate more taxpayer money to major projects , like dams and reservoirs and sewer treatment plants . And leak detection .
  Upgrading old asbestos and galvenised pipes should be currently happening ( is in the naki ) on an annual budget , same with the old earthenware sewers . If it’s not , I bet you live in a an area with a virtue signalling council wasting millions on nice to haves .
  A BIG ISSUE not talked about much is stormwater , especially now we hv 100 year storms every year it seems . The problem is that towns and cities are built from small beginnings . What worked for 20,000 people , won’t work for 200,000 , so on . That’s because the outlet pipes dictate everything . So for every subdivision , commercial or residential , every road is increasing the demand on the existing pipe sizes . Factor in regular major events and flooding is inevitable . It’s a massive job to dig out the old ones and put in bigger ones with all the buildings n traffic everywhere . You also need more sumps to catch the heavy rain …. and on it goes . In 50 years time do it all again .
  
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  September 21, 2021 8:45pm
Grant

An open letter to whoever is in charge at NewsTalk ZB…
Here’s a quote taken directly from your website this morning:
“Auckland could remain in alert level 3 for months as it wrestles with the deadly Delta variant following the Government decision to move the city out of level 4 lockdown, an expert warns.”
This is fear porn of the worst order.
A disease that has infected over 1000 kiwis in the last 5 weeks and carried off one very elderly person – who had other health issues at the same time – is not deadly in the slightest.
FFS just stop it!
Then maybe, just maybe, in the fullness of time, New Zealanders able to think for themselves, will take your news service seriously.
Until that happens, with only Hosking as an exception, you are part of the problem, rather then helping with a solution.
G
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September 21, 2021 8:13am
- Ruawai
  
  And in the highest health risk sector of our population PI.
  
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  September 21, 2021 8:42am
- Inandout
  
  Listening to Hosking this morning he is running with the hares as they say. On one hand saying the level decisions are political and then going full bore over right wing commentators in the US dying of covid. He seems reasonably happy with Jacinda’s edicts.
  
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  September 21, 2021 9:46am
  - virtualmark
    
    Both of those things could be true.
    
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    September 21, 2021 10:31am
Maggy Wassilieff

What we do and don’t know about Covid-vaccine immunity

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02532-4

Then, he says, he saw the data from seven months post-immunization. Although the results are preliminary, the vaccine’s ability to ward off hospitalization and death seems to drop off.

Next winter in NZ will be very revealing …
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September 21, 2021 8:14am
- Cinematic
  
  I’m sure I spotted the Reaper standing right behind Jacinda at yesterday’s presser.
  
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  September 21, 2021 8:22am
- Odakyu-sen
  
  Perhaps the vaccine’s ability to handle the virus it was designed to handle is unchanged; it’s just that new strains of the virus emerge.
  The net effect is that the vaccine’s ability to ward off hospitalization and death seems to drop off.
  
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  September 21, 2021 9:11am
  - tf78
    
    Odakysu-sen, if people had been allowed to let their natural immunity take over, a new strain wouldn’t be a problem. God is more clever than these money making scientists and pharmaceutical companies. If people have tested positive for Covid does that not mean that they have it, which will also show they are already immune. There are no logics anywhere with the Government and their fear porn propaganda wing.
    
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    September 21, 2021 9:28am
  - Benedict Yu
    
    No it drops off against all strains.
    
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    September 21, 2021 9:40am
- Phronesis
  
  The first wave peaking next winter is an absolute worst case scenario. Without actual leadership from this government it’s looking quite likely unfortunately. I think it’s implausible we make it through to summer 22/23 so the best case scenario is probably that the current outbreak smoulders on and hopefully becomes the inevitable full fledged first wave over the summer months while condirtions are favourable and immunity is high.
  
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  September 21, 2021 12:20pm
Maggy Wassilieff

Why on Earth does James Shaw need 14 support Staff with him at Glasgow?

https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA2109/S00171/shaw-to-have-14-staff-in-glasgow-for-climate-talks.htm

And is our Deputy PM really so ill-informed that he knew nothing about this matter at 5pm yesterday?
https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/2018813089/deputy-pm-on-alert-level-moves-and-miq-changes (From about 7:30 min)
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September 21, 2021 8:20am
- Warren
  
  Incompetence and entitlement.
  
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  September 21, 2021 8:28am
- RoboRob
  
  Perhaps someone should ask Shaw if he and the 14 support staff are fully vccinated. Perhaps the trip shouldn’t go ahead until they are.
  
  Me thinks that would put a quick end to the trip:)
  
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  September 21, 2021 9:17am
- Stu2
  
  Probably to ensure he doesn’t promise something NZ can’t deliver!
  
  Actually at the Paris talks we had technical experts behind the scenes giving feedback on the cost and implications of whatever positions were being discussed. Same again I imagine
  
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  September 21, 2021 9:21am
- KevO'Brien
  
  Small man, big staff.
  
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  September 21, 2021 9:35am
- Nickc2
  
  Who’s paying for this and if it’s us taxpayers, who approved it?
  
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  September 21, 2021 9:51am
- Tony Stuart
  
  I would be absolutely gobsmacked if Robertson was totally unaware of Shaw’s trip, and the size of the team accompanying him.
  
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  September 21, 2021 9:59am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Wonder if they are all wearing dresses?
  
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  September 21, 2021 10:02am
raven

The question is “Why?” Why would governments worldwide influence their citizens to get vaccinated, to a virus that is about as bad as a bad flu? Why would we have lockdowns, restrictions, daily 1pm updates, border closures, and overseas – vaccine passports. With promises of easing, when 90% of us get a vaccine that loses 40% strength after 4 months, when the viral load from a person with covid is the same, whether they are vaccinated or not?

What if the answer is depopulation? Bear with me. What if the left-leaning governments, with their climate change agenda, realise the earth is actually cooling and they are running out of time to push through environmental legislation to make it appear CO2 is the culprit. What if they want the Thanos effect?

I’ve heard people I thought of as intelligent saying that Thanos had the right idea – what if it’s happening right now?

A man-made virus, created in a lab through gain-of-function, gets into the population, worldwide pandemic declared, vaccines pushed on us, vaccine makers removed from liability, talk of vaccinated in hospitals presenting with Covid symptoms being treated with Ivermectin and recovering, while unvaccinated are put on ventilators instead and don’t do so well. All to push more people to get vaccinated.

Talk of lowered T-cells and heightened risk of cancers in the vaccinated, of vaccine side effects that are not automatically reported and collated. Talk of vaccine resulting in spike proteins building up in ovaries.

Bill Gates divorced recently. I understand he believes in depopulation, and is behind some of the vaccines. Powerful figures involved.

I hope this theory is wrong, but what if it’s not?
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September 21, 2021 8:22am
- KevO'Brien
  
  Time will tell. Like the crayfish in the boiler we may not be aware until too late.
  
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  September 21, 2021 9:40am
- surfing
  
  Dude, you can’t say Bill Gates invented the virus to depopulate the planet.
  
  This is conspiracy theory at worst.
  
  And, covid is far worse than flu, don’t know where you are getting your info from.
  
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  September 21, 2021 9:43am
  - burt
    
    Have you got a very short memory or are you just easily fooled?
    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/more-than-180-kiwis-are-hospitalised-with-the-flu-a-week/674VVXSHUID3VLUMAZHPEQ5NK4/
    
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    September 21, 2021 10:18am
    - surfing
      
      Your analysis is typical of those who want to hide the truth. You’ve selected a single data point from the worst flu season ever, and compared it with… not exactly sure. You tell me, because you have nothing to compare it with. There was no covid back in 2017.
      
      If you want to make similar comparisons, maybe take flu cases between April and August of last year…. there were 6 cases, and no-one died.
      
      Over the same period, we had…. 20 covid deaths and over a thousand cases? Our case numbers are too low though, you have to go overseas to make valid comparisons, and , all studies show covid is about 10 times worse than the flu.
      
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      September 21, 2021 12:22pm
      - burt
        
        . You’ve selected a single data point from the worst flu season ever.
        
        Was it the worst ever, how do you know that. Then you go on to take a data point from a time we were locked down.
        
        Stats and reasoning aren’t your thing are they.
        
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        September 21, 2021 1:10pm
      - cmm
        
        The bit you seem to have missed is the BAD:
        
        ” a virus that is about as bad as a bad flu? ”
        
        He did not say it was as bad as a mild flu or an average flu (the average flu is pretty mild and still kills hundreds in NZ every year).
        
        CV19 is certainly no worse than a BAD flu.
        
        Spanish Flu, Asian Flu, Hong Kong Flu and the Russian Flu were BAD flu pandemics. All of these were worse than CV19.
        
        Arguably, Spanish Flu was 300x worse than CV19. On top of that, all patients attributed to Spanish Flu were real cases – they didn’t have PCR back then to claim non-symptomatic cases as Spanish Flu cases.
        
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        September 21, 2021 1:14pm
      - Surely Knott
        
        Michael Bakers listener article from 2019 just before covid outbreak is interesting.
        
        “It is estimated flu kills about 500 people a year in New Zealand, which is about two per cent of all deaths.
        
        “It’s a bigger killer than the road toll. It’s amongst our most lethal infectious diseases, based on sheer number of fatalities each year.”
        
        However, he expected about only 1 in 20 flu deaths were recorded correctly, as some flu deaths present other symptoms, such as sudden heart attacks not long after having the virus.”
        
        So what he is saying the recording of flu deaths is subjective and 20 of those deaths should and could be recorded as flu deaths.
        
        So if as he suggests they decide to record all those same deaths as flu instead of recording them as heart attacks, then that would look like a pandemic. Especially if the government didn’t publish the other mortality statistics like the heart attack statistics which would go down. Where are our mortality statistics post 2017. Oz has them current until May 2021. How can we be asked to accept severe health measures without current and transparent health statistics.
        
        Then he says, “However, more than 40 per cent of hospital and GP-tested samples were positive for influenza, one of the highest numbers of confirmed cases for the period in recent years.
        
        The flu vaccination reduces the risk of getting the flu by around 60 per cent.”
        
        So 40% of hospital tests have flu. Imagine if we had the flu and flu deaths recorded daily on worldometer and a daily press conference.
        
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        September 21, 2021 1:20pm
      - surfing
        
        OK Burt, …. from your link …
        
        “We had the busiest July ever this year, with 136 influenza hospital admissions recorded, compared to 41 in July 2016”
        
        You cherry picked a bad year to support false claims.
        
        If you want objective analysis , by scientists …
        
        https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/coronavirus/coronavirus-disease-2019-vs-the-flu
        
        https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/in-depth/coronavirus-vs-flu/art-20490339
        
        https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-85081-0
        
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        September 21, 2021 1:28pm
      - burt
        
        surfing
        
        I think you failed to read the headline – 180 per week hospitalised. 180 per week….
        
        OK lets say it’s the worst ever for that hospital, it was still just flu, I don’t recall being locked down with the PM waving her arms and wobbling her head every day for 18 months back then – but you might.
        
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        September 21, 2021 2:58pm
- krazykiwi
  
  I don’t buy into the theory that Gates is a thinly cloaked Malthusian. However, there is considerable longitudinal evidence of his fascination with vaccination leading to some pretty awful outcomes for mainly third-world people.
  
  This article is well referenced: How many more young lives will be sacrificed on Gates’s vaccine altar?
  
  I challenge anyone to read this article and not come away concerned at the antic of this man. As a career technologist of about his age I have previously held Gate in high esteem. Not any more.
  
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  September 21, 2021 10:34am
  - cmm
    
    “As a career technologist of about his age I have previously held Gate in high esteem.”
    
    You’re far more generous than I am, but then you’ve probably not been personally fucked over by Microsoft as I have.
    
    Microsoft got to where it did mainly through lawyering and destruction rather than creating solutions for people.
    
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    September 21, 2021 1:16pm
    - surfing
      
      Got to agree, not impressed with Gates.
      
      I have a friend who was f***d over by microsoft too. In a business deal. Their power is immense.
      
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      September 21, 2021 1:31pm
    - krazykiwi
      
      Ug, not good. Yes I recall you mentioning this many GD-moons ago. My business got the other side of MS – support that helped us thrive.
      
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      September 21, 2021 1:39pm
    - thirteenstars
      
      Rubbish. They sold a product people wanted and the thanks they got was a slew of prosecutions from various governments around the world for being a supposed monopoly.
      
      Gates became mega wealthy but is still an ideological idiot.
      
      Microsoft’s success and Gates’ idiocy don’t necessarily have anything to do with each other.
      
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      September 21, 2021 3:06pm
- virtualmark
  
  Don’t be a muppet.
  
  To use statistics from the US … flu deaths average 36,000 a year, with worst ever year (2017) being 61,000.
  
  Meanwhile in the US Covid deaths are running at 400,000 a year, with worst ever *month* (Jan 2021) being 105,000.
  
  So saying it is no worse than the flu, and that Bill Gates gave you micro-chips because he was angry at his divorce is idiotic.
  
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  September 21, 2021 10:35am
  - raven
    
    virtuamark, digging deeper into how the stats are collated can be interesting:
    https://www.aamc.org/news-insights/how-are-covid-19-deaths-counted-it-s-complicated
    
    e.g. Advanced cancer patients are counted as dying from Covid.
    
    And this: “the agency (CDC) attributed at least two-thirds of those deaths to COVID-19 – because people died either from the disease or from other causes as a result of avoiding medical care because of the pandemic.”
    
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    September 21, 2021 11:16am
    - virtualmark
      
      And flu deaths are done the same way.
      
      Strictly speaking very few people die of the flu. They die of pneumonia, or of oedema induced heart attacks etc etc. But those things are secondary complications of the flu and so they are recorded as flu deaths.
      
      Same as with Covid.
      
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      September 21, 2021 11:48am
    - MCos
      
      You might want to find out where the flu fatality figures come from.
      
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      September 21, 2021 12:01pm
  - dcrane
    
    Except you have to be specific about what age class you mean, since the risk differs so enormously by age. For children, judging by deaths per year, covid has been less of a threat than the flu.
    
    Clearly, covid is a far greater threat than the flu for the very elderly.
    
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    September 21, 2021 11:20am
  - cmm
    
    “So saying it is no worse than the flu”
    
    He didn’t say that.
    
    He said it is no worse than a BAD flu.
    
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    September 21, 2021 1:17pm
- dcrane
  
  No way a conspiracy theory as extreme as “forcing world depopulation” could get through so many institutions without some major whistleblowers emerging from those institutions. Sure, some global warming extremists might be crazy enough to think it’s right to kill off 90% of humans, but you won’t get everyone in WHO, CDC, FDA, Pfizer, etc. etc. etc. to adhere to such insanity.
  
  This is a more complicated situation. Elites of western nations globally are in crisis because our systems have become corrupted by money and power. Failure is everywhere. They sense a potential loss of status and power if the deplorables, who are consistently on the losing end of all of this, begin to resist en masse. The elite/professional/administrative class instinctively clings to ideas that tend to increase their power over the lower classes. Half the time it’s probably not even conscious. The great clash over Trump is part of this.
  
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  September 21, 2021 11:26am
- miltonF
  
  I’ve been contemplating the same thing. We are endlessly bombarded with “green” policies designed to reduce our impact on the environment, yet the elephant in the room, population, is never discussed. Is this because there is already a solution in the pipeline? A solution that may be unpalatable to the public?
  
  If you’re a sick enough puppy to consider depopulation you’d certainly throw some eugenics in there for good measure. Two for one. A virus doesn’t discriminate but a vaccine does. That’s how you hit your target.
  
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  September 21, 2021 9:47pm
Chuck Bird

Did anyone hear Mike interview, Des Gorman, after the 6:30 news? His view is that the latest call was political.

I believe the polls will start hurting Labour in a few months once elimination is seen to fail and vaccination rates cannot get above 85%.
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September 21, 2021 8:32am
- Maggy Wassilieff
  
  You forget that a lot of spin will be created in the coming months..
  
  *We will be told that Delta is different….(Well we’ve already been told that)
  
  * The unvaccinated will be blamed for allowing the virus to spread
  
  * Finally we will be told that our Government has spent the last 2 years protecting us, so they could gain time analysing the “evolving” science around the pandemic…and now acting on best and new advice….the Government will lead us along the Freedom pathway.
  
  (And we will lap it up….as we have for the last two years)
  
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  September 21, 2021 8:41am
  - JamesP
    
    Obviously the government will spin. The work to walk back the elimination strategy has been underway for a while (about a month since Hipkins dropped the “big questions” truth bomb). But I think the current outbreak forced the government to increase the pace of change and that leaves them vulnerable. Assuming that L3 fails to contain spread, they have about three weeks until the case numbers begin to show this. That is how long Jacinda has to pivot and sell the change to the public.
    
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    September 21, 2021 9:04am
  - tf78
    
    Not me Maggy! When Covid first appeared I watched a doco on the Spanish flu and got a handle on how these viruses spread and slowly die off somewhat. We still have the remnants of that Flu around today, except the new one has been re-named Covid. The bs must stop.
    
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    September 21, 2021 9:35am
    - Ed Snack
      
      Except that isn’t literally true. Covid-19 is a Beta Corona Virus, same as SARS and MERS but NOT the same as an influenza virus. Influenza is another RNA virus but in a different virus family with a different structure, though it does target the same infection pathway into the body.
      
      There are other “similar” viruses as well, RSV being another respiratory virus from yet another family.
      
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      September 21, 2021 10:51am
  - KevO'Brien
    
    Very perceptive Maggy. I am surprised by the public’s need for a leader. But, look at the USA, Biden is probably now a proxy for Xi and and its business as usual.
    
    Strangest of times.
    
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    September 21, 2021 9:45am
  - BananaLlama
    
    This Labour government will have borrowed over 100 billion dollars and got stuff all for it. Imagine if we had spent 100 billion dollars on our healthcare system, covid wouldn’t even be a concern.
    Too bad lefties have kack for brains and can’t put this simple logic together.
    
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    September 21, 2021 12:33pm
- Ra Henare
  
  Of course it was political. All the Covid calls are political.
  
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  September 21, 2021 8:44am
  - dcrane
    
    All decisions by politicians are political and should be at some level, because all decisions involve choices about how to balance conflicting value goals. This is why we never should have accepted the claims that covid rules should be solely “based on the science”.
    
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    September 21, 2021 11:18am
- Odakyu-sen
  
  Even if vaccination rates reach 85%, what will happen when a new strain of the coronavirus pops up next year?
  
  Will we all face lockdowns and mandatory shots of a new vaccine for the new strain?
  
  How is this sustainable?
  
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  September 21, 2021 9:31am
  - dcrane
    
    And what will happen after we foolishly drive the evolution of a severely resistant strain of the virus, by forcing vaccination all the way down to age 5, and thereby render obsolete our best tool for helping the elderly/vulnerable?
    
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    September 21, 2021 11:15am
  - UrbanNeocolonialist
    
    After vaccination and subsequently almost everyone catching Covid and developing natural immunity future variants should be no worse than flu.
    
    And medical community will eventually learn a huge amount out of this pandemic about how best to treat respiratory viral infections. Eventually the antivirals and other pharmacological mitigations discovered in last year will make a big impact on future flu treatment (once Big Pharma stops working to delay their adoption).
    
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    September 21, 2021 11:27am
- 70andstilllearning
  
  Surprisingly Tova on TV3, in the lead up to the presser, made comment that the call would be political in order for the PM to retain buy in from the AKL population so I would agree with Gorman’s sentiment.
  
  I also thought, based on the PM’s comments and TV3’s summary banners that there had been a change made to the L3 household bubble expansion criteria. I labeled the change L4 Lite. The covid level explained site was updated some time after 5:15 yesterday and this shows my initial thought was wrong in that there has been rewording but no fundamental change to the criteria.
  
  But compare the PM’s word’s:
  “In terms of what level 3 means for Auckland, I can sum it up with one word: caution. You
  will have heard me say that when analysing where transmission has occurred, there are
  some strong themes and reasons why certain rules remain in place. They stop transmission
  at level 4 and are still in place at level 3. First, your bubbles remain. You are not allowed to
  visit friends or neighbours at level 3. You shouldn’t join them for food, talk closely across
  the fence, or even have children play together. I know this is strict and it is hard, but it is
  there for a reason.
  You are allowed to make very minor and small extensions to your bubble to bring in a
  person who may be isolated and vulnerable, such as an elderly relative. If you have care
  needs for children or the vulnerable, you may bring in another family member or carer to
  help. But, please, these are very tightly controlled extensions here. No matter what, your
  bubble must remain small and exclusive. These are the same rules that we have had in the
  past.”
  
  to the updated site language:
  
  “At Alert Level 3, you legally must stay in your household bubble.
  You can extend your household bubble to 2 or more homes to bring in close whānau, caregivers, or people who live alone or may be isolated. Everyone who is over 18 needs to agree to the extended bubble. Keep your extended bubble close and small. If you have an extended bubble arrangement you can invite those people to your home.
  You cannot invite other friends, whānau and extended family who are not in your bubble to your home.”
  
  So the key differences:
  PM: bubble expansion to a one person (elderly ) living alone
  Actual criteria: you can still expand bubble to a CLOSE family/whanua bubble.
  
  I’ve also noted @Ruawai’s 8:05 comment.
  
  So my new conclusion: Bloomfield probably? recommended retain L4, but she couldn’t do that without losing significant buy in, so L3 but spun to encourage L4 bubble criteria.
  Her/cabinet? call was absolutely political !!!
  https://www.beehive.govt.nz/sites/default/files/2021-09/Press%20Conference%20-%2020%2009%202021.pdf
  https://covid19.govt.nz/activities/meeting-friends-and-whanau/#meeting-friends-and-wh%C4%81nau-at-alert-level-3
  
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  September 21, 2021 10:02am
  - kloyd0306
    
    Gave up reading after the first maori word.
    If I have to refer to a dictionary, what’s the point?
    
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    September 21, 2021 11:43am
    - 70andstilllearning
      
      Not bad – you got just over 1/2 way through. Although just a couple of thoughts:
      “family/whanua” -dictionary supplied
      Ruawai – someone’s blog handle – but a map probably more useful.
      But I get your point that the comparative quotes were rather long 🙂 😉
      
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      September 21, 2021 1:00pm
      - kloyd0306
        
        Actually, you miss the point.
        I don’t care if you provide a dictionary, I don’t want any.
        Why not write “family” in the first place?
        I stop reading and/or watching at the first maori word. It’s not my language. English is.
        
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        September 21, 2021 8:05pm
- Ehlana
  
  All calls by politicians are political – what else can they be?
  These decisions are always going to be balancing acts. One the one hand, an out-of-control outbreak could quickly swamp our health system and lead to the kind of mass deaths that have occurred overseas. On the other, lockdowns and isolation have costs too – in other diseases not detected until too late, domestic violence (at the worst, family annihilation), worsening mental health, depression and suicide, economic destruction and unemployment, with all their attendant ills.
  There’s only so long you can keep everyone locked up. Did anyone really want to continue in level 4?
  
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  September 21, 2021 10:31am
  - MCos
    
    The health experts would have continue at Level 4, but that’s their field.
    They’re not paid to give the Cabinet advice on the problems faced by small businesses, for example.
    The Cabinet weighs up the various angles and comes to a consensus how to proceed.
    They know there’s people busting out of Auckland, probably on a regular basis, there’s kids missing out on schooling etc.
    BTW
    During one of the polio epidemics schools were closed for five months.
    
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    September 21, 2021 11:56am
- Paulus
  
  Nothing can hurt Labour and their wunnerful feminist leader.
  The wimmen will not have it !
  
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  September 21, 2021 1:36pm
Yvette

Some basic (still) covid questions –

1 – If two individuals are equally infected by someone who is covid-positive, say in a lift or some other such equal situation, and one of the two individuals is vaccinated and the other not –
– do both individuals contract the same viral load ?
– if so, can both individuals immediately pass on the same viral load to someone that they physically come in contact with?
– is it correct that the unvaccinated person, when the infection is incubated and she or he is infectious, will pass on a strong viral load? and …
– is it correct that the vaccinated person when the infection is incubated, will develop a milder illness, if at all, and may pass on a weaker viral load?

2 – Since the Pfizer vaccine seems to be acknowledged to wain in effectiveness – beyond 120 days efficacy drops to 77% – is there then a time frame when the target of 90% vaccination is reached, that the country can be “opened up” or will those first vaccinated be due booster injections, and the whole process need to roll out again?

3 – Is “herd immunity” a myth – as a released prisoner can return to a community and spread the illness, regardless of how many vaccinated people were between his departure point and his destination, or an infected tourist visit many places over a weekend, but infect no-one – so is “herd immunity” more a game of “covid Lotto” and a matter of who randomly may pass you by?

4 – Is the so far stated vaccination target of 90%, actually for those 4.2 million population over 12 years of age, so the 90% is in regard to 84% of the “Team of Five Million” and therefore only 75% of that 5 million?

Jacinda Ardern has implored people to get vaccinated “for our kids”, but so far there is no vaccination “of our kids”.
Arden said she wanted New Zealand’s vaccine rates in 2021 to lead the world
At 75% ?
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September 21, 2021 8:35am
- Albert_Ross
  
  Yes, no, yes, maybe, no, yes, in some cases, no, yes, probably.
  
  Happy?
  
  Why do you think random strangers of unknown qualification on kiwiblog will be able and willing to provide you with accurate and reliable answers?
  
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  September 21, 2021 9:32am
  - burt
    
    Why do you think random strangers of unknown qualification on kiwiblog will be able and willing to provide you with accurate and reliable answers?
    
    But plenty of people can tell us the vaccine is safe and effective and that we all should have it.
    
    Can you see it yet?
    
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    September 21, 2021 11:53am
    - Albert_Ross
      
      What am I supposed to see?
      
      What I do see is that people who know everything that it is currently possible to know about vaccines, by virtue of having spent their entire working lives devoted to the subject, and are prepared to put their names, work and professional reputations up for review by their peers and rivals – say that taking the vaccine is far less likely to lead to serious illness and death from covid than is not taking the vaccine.
      
      Nope – I’m not going to dismiss that on the advice of someone who’s managed to work out how to put a video up on YouTube.
      
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      September 21, 2021 2:44pm
- surfing
  
  – do both individuals contract the same viral load ?
  
  https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02187-1
  
  On average, vaccinated people carry a lower viral.
  
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  September 21, 2021 9:46am
  - raven
    
    surfing, Fauci said vaccinated and unvaccinated carry the same viral load:
    https://youtu.be/TRc9yKSjkP0
    
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    September 21, 2021 12:21pm
- KevO'Brien
  
  The reports are the “vaccinated” now carry the viral load for offloading.
  
  https://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2021/09/18/the-most-important-article-on-mrna-vaccination-you-will-ever-read/
  
  (A long, very detailed technical article by Mike Whitney.)
  
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  September 21, 2021 9:55am
  - Fletch
    
    Wow. If even some of that is true, it’s a complete disaster… No way we should be rolling out this vaccine.
    
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    September 21, 2021 10:41am
  - MCos
    
    Who’s this Paul Craig Roberts to write stuff like this?
    
    “The governments that encourage and coerce Covid inoculation are mass murderers who should be tried and executed for their crimes against humanity.”
    
    He also provides a graphic image of swinging bodies to illustrate his point.
    
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    September 21, 2021 11:24am
    - MCos
      
      Seems he’s a Holocaust denier, 9/11 truther & suspects government agencies killed JFK.
      
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      September 21, 2021 12:15pm
      - dave_c_
        
        What an ignorant cad you are MCos !
        
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        September 21, 2021 3:00pm
    - KevO'Brien
      
      Paul Craig Roberts is a former Economist and Cabinet(?) member of the Reagan Admin. He is also an accredited academic. Like many other economists he is trained in investigating facts.
      
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      September 21, 2021 2:47pm
- Sacha
  
  Overseas reports say that children under 16/17 years old will have good immune systems due to their mingling throughout their pre- and school years, that their illness is commonly mild, and that they do not benefit from vaccination.
  Given that there is no data on the long term effects of this new form of vaccine, it seems a cautious, sensible approach.
  
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  September 21, 2021 10:02am
- virtualmark
  
  1a = both individuals are exposed to the same viral load of infection, but the vaccinated person’s immune response kicks in *much* faster and so slows down the replication of the virus in their own nasal cells. Think of two fireplaces, both set, but one has damp wood … use the same type of match on both fires but one will not take.
  1b = no, the vaccinated person won’t brew up the same viral load in their nose/throat/lungs and so will exhale a lot lower amount of virus to that new person.
  1c = probably, the unvaccinated person will probably see a faster & bigger viral infection because it will take time for their immune system to recognise they have been infected (since their immune system hasn’t ever seen Covid before, either via infection or vaccination). That allows the virus to get a head start and build up a head of steam.
  1d = yes, the vaccine has primed, or taught, the person’s immune system to recognise the Covid virus as an invader and has built up B- and T-cells that are immediately available to fight the infection. So the virus doesn’t get to build as big a beach-head in that person, and so there is less viral load to pass on.
  
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  September 21, 2021 10:42am
  - virtualmark
    
    The danger of Covid is that it is novel – our immune systems haven’t encountered it before and so don’t immediately recognise it and don’t have a response ready to deploy. That gives the virus a head start during which time it can build up enough load/infection that your immune system is never able to catch-up and so, well, you die.
    
    The value of the vaccines is that they prime your immune system to recognise that the Covid virus is a threat that needs a response, and to trigger the immune system to build up cells that can counter it. So if/when you are infected it’s not a complete surprise to your immune system and it mounts an effective response.
    
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    September 21, 2021 10:46am
    - dcrane
      
      It’s also probably why early and aggressive treatment seems to make such a difference. The virus is novel but not *that* novel – we deal with coronaviruses all the time. So if the initial infection can be slowed, the immune system has more time to muster an effeective response.
      
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      September 21, 2021 11:14am
    - Cinematic
      
      Covid viruses aren’t novel. Your theory is only partly correct and wholly hysterical. Delta has killed no one worth counting from a public health perspective in NZ despite infecting thousands.
      
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      September 21, 2021 11:32am
      - virtualmark
        
        Covid-19 is a novel virus. Novel as in your immune system has never encountered it before and so has no pre-existing immune response to it. “Novel” is the correct medical term.
        
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        September 21, 2021 12:25pm
      - dcrane
        
        virtualmark – Technically every new mutant lineage of every virus, even different by just one DNA base, is “novel” in the sense that nobody’s immune system has ever seen it before. Novelty is a matter of degree.
        
        And if our immune systems have no pre-existing response at all to SARS-COV-2, how come so many young people fight it off without even knowing they were sick? There is a degree of novelty of course, since after it it may be a partly engineered virus, but there is also some existing immunity since after all its just a coronavirus.
        
        https://www.webmd.com/lung/coronavirus
        
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        September 21, 2021 1:00pm
      - zulumonster
        
        virtualmark’s post does not qualify under any definition of the word hysterical. Yours however …
        
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        September 21, 2021 2:45pm
      - virtualmark
        
        dcrane, not quite.
        
        With Covid, to use one example, your immune system will primarily recognise the “spike” protein. As long as that stays constant – which it should because its bound up in that coronavirus’ geometry – then your immune system will recognise and fight any sub-variants.
        
        Another example … OC43 is one of the four coronaviruses that cause the common head cold. We will all have been exposed to it several times before we were 10. Small dose exposures, because there’s such widespread immunity now. But in 1898, when OC43 first came out, it killed millions in a global pandemic. Because at that time it was novel.
        
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        September 21, 2021 4:03pm
Yvette

• Afghanistan: Sixty New Zealand human rights groups, activists call for Government to escalate response to ‘humanitarian disaster’

• Families and friends of Afghan nationals who supported New Zealand’s presence in Afghanistan continue to plead for them to be given visas and a safe passage out of the country.

• Plea for New Zealand Government to provide urgent visas to Afghan women at risk from Taliban.
A women’s empowerment programme in Afghanistan is calling on the New Zealand Government to provide urgent visas to an at-risk family of five.
They’re trying to get the young women on the programme out of the country because they fear they could be killed or married off to Taliban fighters.
“I do not know if the Taliban are going to kill me or not,” one woman says.

• Families of Afghan interpreters ‘scared and in hiding’
Twenty Afghan interpreters worried about their families being hunted by the Taliban came to Parliament this morning urging the Prime Minister and her Government to hear their pleas.
The interpreters waited three hours, however they were not met by any members of the Government.
One interpreter, who wore medals he earned for his service to New Zealand [as did several others wear up to four medals each], told 1-News they wanted help from the Government to bring their families to New Zealand.
“We worked for the New Zealand Government, we worked for the army, and we were the ones who were hunting those bad guys back in the day.
“But now they’re hunting. They’ve got the Government, they’ve got the power,” he said, referring to the Taliban.

… Holding a sign that read – “Please talk to us for 5 mins”, the interpreter said their siblings who were still in Afghanistan were in danger.

Apparently no one in Government has five minutes for these people, whose work for New Zealand leaves relatives facing death
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September 21, 2021 8:40am
- Jack5
  
  What’s the story on these “four medals” for New Zealand?
  
  Did New Zealand issue medals to Afghan translators, and if so, which medals, and what for?
  
  You have to feel for the translators, but NZ needs to take care. ISIL is active in Afghanistan. It will see international refugee moves as a way to infiltrate the West.
  
  While it would be ideal to bring out the translators who helped the NZ Army, I’m not so sure that NZ needs to rescue those who supported Hager the Horrible and the Stuff reporting team that went to bat for Afghans injured on an old firing range used by NZ.
  
  Then there’s the question of thousands of our own family members and friends backed up waiting to get into quarantine so they can come home to NZ.
  Do Aghans get priority over them?
  
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  September 21, 2021 11:31am
Yvette

Big gap between Pfizer, Moderna vaccines seen for preventing COVID hospitalizations.
Amid persistent concerns that the protection offered by COVID-19 vaccines may be waning, a report released Friday by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention finds that America’s workhorse shot is significantly less effective at preventing severe cases of disease over the long term than many experts had realized.
Data collected from 18 states between March and August suggest the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine reduces the risk of being hospitalized with COVID-19 by 91% in the first four months after receiving the second dose. Beyond 120 days, however, that vaccine efficacy drops to 77%.
Meanwhile, Moderna’s vaccine was 93% effective at reducing the short-term risk of COVID-19 hospitalization and remained 92% effective after 120 days.

Moderna’s shot contains 100 micrograms of vaccine, more than three times the 30 micrograms in the Pfizer shot. And Pfizer’s two doses are given three weeks apart, while Moderna’s two-shot regimen is administered with a four-week gap.

[Pfizer] Company officials also touted evidence from Israel, which rolled out boosters after seeing a rise in hospitalizations among people who were fully vaccinated. Those hospitalizations dropped dramatically after third doses were given, Israeli scientists have said.
But panel members made clear that despite Pfizer’s aggressive stance, it had not gathered enough evidence that a third shot was safe for young people and for those at lesser risk of becoming severely ill with COVID-19.
https://www.latimes.com/science/story/2021-09-17/study-finds-big-gap-between-pfizer-moderna-vaccines-at-preventing-covid-hospitalizations

Los Angeles Times – so as they say to Academy Awards voters, when sent disc copies of nominees films – “For Your Consideration”
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September 21, 2021 8:51am
- Sacha
  
  So the inference is that the vaccine is a bit like taking quinine for malaria – you have to keep taking it, forever.
  It’s a con.
  
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  September 21, 2021 10:11am
  - Rich Prick
    
    I knew there was a good reason for a daily G&T.
    
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    September 21, 2021 10:49am
- virtualmark
  
  Careful.
  
  Much of that data is derived from vaccinations given to quite old people … basically the demographic group who we have the longest experience with are the very old, since they were the ones given the vaccines back in Jan/Feb. But their immune response probably isn’t representative of younger people with healthier immune systems.
  
  The studies tracking the Phase III trial recipients (smaller group of people but spread across age groups) suggest the waning rate is slower than you’ve outlined above.
  
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  September 21, 2021 10:49am
  - krazykiwi
    
    Yes, this is what I’ve been reading. The rollout prioritisation is making summary analysis of prophylaxis and treatment outcomes a bit difficult. What’s needed are age-based cohort analyses, and even these would need comorbidity dimensions to make them meaningful.
    
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    September 21, 2021 11:14am
    - virtualmark
      
      Agreed. But I gather one problem is that the relatively small number of people in the Phase III trials, and even smaller portion in each key demographic, is making it hard to get statistically reliable conclusions.
      
      The merit of looking at the real life vaccinations is that you have millions of people to observe. The drawback is that they are millions of a distorted demographic just at the moment.
      
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      September 21, 2021 11:52am
      - krazykiwi
        
        I’d suggest the main drawback is that those million of people think they getting a drug that’s as safe as something their local doctor would prescribe, when in truth they are unknowing participants in the worlds largest drug trial.
        
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        September 21, 2021 1:42pm
      - virtualmark
        
        Well, only in the way that pilots in new aircraft in World War II could have been considered test pilots, because aircraft development times were hugely shrunk.
        
        Taking 5 years to do a deep longitudinal study of Covid vaccine effectiveness would have given us good information, but would also condemn millions of people to death. The cost would have outweighed the benefits.
        
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        September 21, 2021 4:07pm
Maggy Wassilieff

Double-vaxxed Olympic Swimmer hospitalised with Covid

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-09-20/madison-wilson-hospitalised-with-covid-19-fully-vaccinated/100475354
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September 21, 2021 9:00am
- Odakyu-sen
  
  What are her symptoms?
  How long ago did she get her second shot?
  Was the vaccine specifically for the strain of the virus (delta?) that she caught?
  
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  September 21, 2021 9:09am
kevn

@Maggy… Do you know, that is just how it is looking.
Hundreds of billions spent/wasted and hundreds, nay, thousands of crucified businesses later of course.
Rooting NZ.
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September 21, 2021 9:02am
Maggie Pie

RANDOM IMPERTINENT QUESTION….

Watching FOX last night reporting on the plight of 40k Haitian illegals pouring across the Mexico – US border.

What I’d like to know is…. what ‘Mobile Plan’ are they on?

Most of them were either recording videos or talking on smartphones.
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September 21, 2021 9:03am
- kevn
  
  @Maggie… Whole bunch of Africans have been flying in to join the migrant throng as well. Maybe the Nigerian dudes sell fones (with pre loaded numbers for biden) and plans? They are enterprising.
  
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  September 21, 2021 9:48am
  - dcrane
    
    Some Chilean or Brazilian plan, to judge from this story:
    
    https://www.reuters.com/world/us/over-10000-mostly-haitian-migrants-sleeping-under-texas-bridge-more-expected-2021-09-17/
    
    “Many of the Haitians interviewed by Reuters said they used to live in South America, often Brazil or Chile, and were headed north now because they could not attain legal status or struggled to secure decent jobs. Some Haitians also said they were encouraged by videos on social media about applying for asylum in the United States.”
    
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    September 21, 2021 11:10am
- jon
  
  Has TV One News carried a report on this crisis at the border?? I doubt they would have.
  
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  September 21, 2021 5:20pm
Benedict Yu

Looks like the USA will be vaccinating 5 – 11 year olds by November.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/sep/20/pfizer-covid-vaccine-children-5-to-11-trial

Inevitably New Zealand will follow. I suspect they will carve this cohort out of the 90 percent target. I’d be surprised if vaccination rates for 5 – 11 year olds reaches 50 percent.
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September 21, 2021 9:38am
- dcrane
  
  What a disaster. This is unnecessary since children appear to experience lower risk from covid than from the flu, and because forcing vaccination into the low risk classes will needlessly accelerate the evolution of resistant strains, as with overuse of antibiotics. Pfizer just wants to make squillions more in profits.
  
  Btw I love the ambiguous opening line: “In news sure to be greeted by parents across the US…”
  
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  September 21, 2021 11:08am
  - Benedict Yu
    
    Pfizer is currently doing a trial on infants aged between 6 months and 4 years. Expect that cohort to be rolled out in New Zealand by mid next year.
    
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    September 21, 2021 3:50pm
Fuzzysnuggleduck

Good analysis of politically motivated claims by police from COLFO (Council of Licensed Firearms Owners):
———————————–
You may have been outraged to hear Police Commissioner Andrew Coster saying on TV 1 News that LFOs are passing firearms on to criminals, that’s why we need a register.
Here are a few facts we obtained through an OIA request.
The truth is in the Numbers

On a number of occasions Chris Cahill, President of the Police Association, And now Commissioner Coster has claimed that licensed firearm owners are the prime source of firearms in the hands of criminals.
….we obtained data covering the past 11 years from the police through the Official Information Act.
An annual average of 8.6 holders of a firearm licence have been prosecuted for supplying firearms to unlicensed people. …

Annually an average of 188 Licence holders report a burglary where firearms are taken…
For the total number of firearms reported stolen from licence holders the average is 567 per year….
An average figure for firearms reported stolen that are recovered amounts to 32.
On average 3 firearms are reported lost each year…Very few of these appear to be recovered (4 in 11 years).

Police themselves lose on average 2 firearms held by them each year due to loss or theft….
…they failed to include the 11 firearms stolen from Palmerston North police station last year. (!!!)

Allowing for the fact that police seize an average 1300 unlawfully held guns each year, (2017 data), it is obvious that Mr Cahill its stretching the truth for his own agenda.
Just 0.0035% of the total population of licensed firearm owners are prosecuted for supplying guns to unlicensed people.
Less than half the guns seized can be those stolen from licensed owners so where do the bulk come from?
It is our contention that most guns circulating in the underworld (250,000 estimate) are those accumulated over many years, and more modern weapons smuggled in to the country with $ millions of drugs. .
….police have provided 12 known gang associates with a firearm licence {no wonder} wonder that criminals have ready access to firearms.

We have today lodged an OIA request to obtain more details of the 987 firearms seized in Operation Tauwhiro this year..
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September 21, 2021 9:47am
UrbanNeocolonialist

Saw mention of a theory last night that the reason young men are more vulnerable to heart damage from the vaccines is a lack of body fat that otherwise absorbs the vaccine fragments. Pays to be less healthy in this case.
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September 21, 2021 9:49am
- Ruahine
  
  Hmm. Lack of body fat maybe likely in Somalia. But Auckland. I am not so sure.
  
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  September 21, 2021 10:41am
- krazykiwi
  
  Interesting. Young male athletes are certainly over-represented in the myocarditis statistics. Adipose tissue is not so good for Covid-19 severity though. After age it is the next biggest risk factor (1.30x).
  
  In July Public Health England estimated that having a BMI of 35 to 40 could increase a person’s chances of dying from covid-19 by 40%, while a BMI greater than 40 could increase the risk by 90%.1
  
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  September 21, 2021 10:45am
  - All_on_Red
    
    The Fatties are vulnerable
    
    “Since the pandemic began,” Science Magazine reported in September, “dozens of studies have reported that many of the sickest COVID-19 patients have been people with obesity.” In one study published in August cited by the flagship journal, overweight patients stricken with COVID-19 were 113 percent more likely to be hospitalized compared to patients of an otherwise healthy weight. Obese patients were found 74 percent more likely to end up in intensive care units (ICU) and 48 percent more likely to die.’
    https://thefederalist.com/2021/02/19/70-percent-of-american-adults-are-now-overweight-a-new-high/
    
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    September 21, 2021 11:14am
- dcrane
  
  I wonder if myocarditis effects are most likely to manifest when the heart is subject to greater exertion (more common in males).
  
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  September 21, 2021 11:05am
- MCos
  
  There’s probably more danger crossing the road to the vaccination centre.
  
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  September 21, 2021 12:11pm
shogun

Today’s a day that ends in y, so here’s another story of a politician abusing power and engaging in blatant hypocrisy.

https://fee.org/articles/san-francisco-mayor-was-just-exposed-for-breaking-her-own-mask-mandate-and-she-s-not-sorry/

One rule for me and another for thee.
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September 21, 2021 10:07am
- mandk
  
  Four legs good, two legs better!
  
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  September 21, 2021 10:36am
- Libertarians are right
  
  Don’t forget the Emmys where only the plebs were masked.
  
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  September 21, 2021 10:39am
DeepBlue

The government should stand behind its vaccination plan and allow Queenstown to be a business MIQ hub for double vaccinated returnees under bond. Have businesses pay a bond and a higher MIQ rate to book the rooms up to 20 December.
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September 21, 2021 10:28am
- ecco
  
  We know friends in Malaysia who told us you can pay for a 6 star hotel for your MIQ there if you have the money. Can also queue jump the MIQ queue if you are prepared to pay the nightly rate.
  
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  September 21, 2021 1:17pm
Biscuit

I see Princess Eugenie has dropped a Royal sprog.

Now. which is it?

Her Dad, Prince Andrew, is still in Balmoral with Mumsie so as to avoid those nasty process servers re the sex scandal he is caught up in?

Or

Has Eugenie and her hubby told him ‘Keep yourself a few hundred miles away from our wee mite. And, no, neither you nor Fergie will ever be asked to babysit…’?

Or

Both of the above?
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September 21, 2021 11:15am
krazykiwi

A good essay from The American Institute of Economic Research: –

Why Totalitarians Promote Hate. A couple of extracts: –

In The True Believer, social philosopher Eric Hoffer observed: “Mass movements can rise and spread without belief in a God, but never without belief in a devil. Usually, the strength of a mass movement is proportionate to the vividness and tangibility of its devil.”

Hoffer recounts that before the “Final Solution,” “when Hitler was asked whether he thought the Jew must be destroyed, he demurred, “We should have then to invent him. It is essential to have a tangible enemy, not merely an abstract one.”

Hoffer continued with the story of “a Japanese mission that arrived in Berlin in 1932 to study the National Socialist movement.” Journalist Frederick Voigt asked “a member of the mission what he thought of the movement. The visiting delegate replied, ‘It is magnificent. I wish we could have something like it in Japan, only we can’t, because we haven’t got any Jews.’”

Hoffer found, “It is perhaps true that the insight and shrewdness of the men who know how to set a mass movement in motion, or how to keep one going, manifest themselves as much in knowing how to pick a worthy enemy as in knowing what doctrine to embrace and what program to adopt.”

Nazis argued that Jews were vermin that spread disease. If you thought that most Germans saw through the propaganda and merely went along because they were intimidated, you would be wrong. German doctors claimed, “that Jews were especially responsible for outbreaks of typhus.” They “published essays claiming that Jewish people’s supposedly ‘low cultural level’ and ‘uncleanliness’ were to blame.”

Yesterday’s “low cultural level” has morphed into labeling the unvaccinated and those not in step with Covid policy as “anti-science,” who manifest villainous disregard for the safety of others.
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September 21, 2021 11:30am
- Matt Long
  
  One of the most common side effects from the vaccine appears to be fascism.
  
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  September 21, 2021 1:48pm
- curry4me
  
  krazykiwi: I agree. When the Nazis were preparing their Nuremberg laws; they had an easy job of it. All they had to do was import most of the Jim Crow stuff from the Blue States of the Southern USA. Some thought the one drop rule was too severe, and adapted the laws to suit.
  
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  September 21, 2021 2:40pm
- cmm
  
  It is always interesting to look at this relative to the 10 stages of genocide.
  
  Genocide is not so much a tool with the goal of murder, instead it is a political device that employs murder as part of its endgame.
  
  In reality everyone is a victim of genocide. Of course the major victims are those that are persecuted and killed, but the people who are manipulated in the process are also lesser victims too. The goal is not so much the death of the victims, but the manipulation and power over those that remain.
  
  The same basic approach (without the killing) can still be employed as a highly effective political device. The power goals can be reached without the body count – something that modern social media etc makes far easier. This can be thought of as a “soft genocide” (perhaps there’s a better term).
  
  We’re seeing this in South Africa (and more recently in NZ) where westernism/whites are blamed for everything.
  
  This “soft genocide” follows the same basic 10 step plan, except for the actual extermination bit.
  
  We’re certainly seeing this “soft genocide” with CV19: society is being polarised, unvaccinated people are becoming the Untermechen. Unvaccinated are already being attacked, persecuted and discriminated against with the state and other power actors (eg. human resources in companies and other twats) enabling rules, laws and such which victimise unvaccinated.
  
  While I think it would be way overstating things to say we’re on the road to a real “hard” genocide, we’re certainly well down the road of a “soft” genocide.
  
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_stages_of_genocide
  
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  September 21, 2021 5:05pm
Jack5

The Herald keeps jabbing at the National Opposition today, with a report about Muller returning to the House, but including these words:

… He returns as Collins faces trouble in the polls and increased speculation she could be rolled by Simon Bridges …

When Jacindarella’s popularity goes off the boil, the Labour PR army seems to organise media stirring about the Opposition. Machiavellian PR.
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September 21, 2021 11:46am
- greybeard
  
  Not to mention the Tom Scott cartoon on the same subject.
  Oh well, Scott is justifying his share of the $55m or whatever they got.
  
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  September 21, 2021 12:26pm
- virtualmark
  
  Look, the Press Gallery is a group of off-med ADHD sufferers who view politics as some sort of entertainment hybrid of Celebrity Treasure Island and the UFC. Fawn over people, until it’s fight, fight, fight! Bread and circuses. There must be blood.
  
  Do not rely on them to provide insightful and thoughtful analysis of policies, decisions, capability or suitability. They don’t have the smarts or the inclination for that.
  
  Kneecapping opposition leaders is one of their regular games. You think they’re being mean to National because that hurts your feelings. But believe me they’re just as happy to shovel shit on Labour Party opposition leaders too (Cunliffe, Shearer, Little etc etc).
  
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  September 21, 2021 12:39pm
  - Libertarians are right
    
    Like that time Little was announced as the new Labour leader and they annointed him as the second coming (even with a halo)?
    
    Their treatment of National in Opposition is far worse than how they treated Labour. They do play the leader game but the difference is that they created the National leader story whereas Grant Robertson was running around knifing all the Labour leaders.
    
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    September 21, 2021 1:01pm
    - virtualmark
      
      When Collins is replaced they will laud her successor. The new shiny thing always gets a good write-up. But eventually they will turn on every politician.
      
      Eventually the Press Gallery will put the knife into Ardern too. Sure, right now it’s all glowing fawning adulation. But they will get tired of that and start baying for blood soon enough.
      
      Tis always the way.
      
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      September 21, 2021 4:09pm
      - rockape
        
        Have you ever seen the media suggest who they would prefer as leader? Nor have I.
        
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        September 21, 2021 5:52pm
  - krazykiwi
    
    Off-med ADHA sufferers. Lol, love the characterisation.
    
    So given this humorous, if sad state of affairs, how well do you rate the media’s job at accurately relaying pandemic news, furnishing us with balanced evidence of vaccination risk/reward, and of holding leaders to account for their declarations?
    
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    September 21, 2021 1:33pm
    - virtualmark
      
      I rate the media’s take on the pandemic fairly poorly. But just as poorly as their performance on transport, or the economy, or education etc.
      
      Golden rule: Whenever you read a media story about some event that you actually know quite a lot about, or were part of, you will always be amazed at how wrong they portray it.
      
      Once you realise that you start to doubt their reporting of the events that you weren’t involved in, or don’t have first hand knowledge of …
      
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      September 21, 2021 4:11pm
- Lance
  
  A number of years ago there was a spate (of gang organized) armed robberies in Auckland. I remember the Herald headline became “today’s armed robbery”.
  This is a bit like that “todays attempt to further destabilize National”
  
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  September 21, 2021 1:10pm
- DeepBlue
  
  I watched Judith’s press conference today. < 5% was taken up by rabid leadership and Queenstown mask questions, which Judith batted away. There was plenty of other material the MSM could have reported, but no.
  
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  September 21, 2021 3:26pm
Fletch

This linked from the site that Kev linked above.
For me, it’s probably the most informative thing I have ever read on the vaccines, how they work, why they do the damage they do, etc. Read it slow.

https://doctors4covidethics.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Letter-and-Notice-of-Liability-to-EMA-and-MEPs.pdf

Some of the takeaways for me are that we probably already have an immune response to Covid if we have been exposed to other coronaviruses like the common flu. In this way it is not “novel”. How do they know?

Another defining feature of a memory antibody response concerns the order in which antibody sub-types are produced. If a pathogen is new, IgM is the first type of antibody to arrive on the scene. It is followed later by IgG and IgA. The next time the pathogen arrives, however, IgG and IgA will be the first to arrive, indicating that the virus, or its relatives, have invaded before. Importantly, this is precisely what we see with COVID-19

It’s chock full of stuff that fills in a lot of the gaps for me and explains why the mRNA vaccines are a bad idea, and the boosters doubly so.
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September 21, 2021 12:36pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Once again they mention Anaphylaxis. Been there, done that. Wonder is Medsafe have sent this on to Jaspinda, or binned it?
  
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  September 21, 2021 1:33pm
Jibber NO Jabber

Had to LoL at Ardern setting ol’ Ashley up for the possibility it all goes belly up in the future.
Tho’ he’s always had that possum in the headlights look, even before Clark threw him under the bus.
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September 21, 2021 12:56pm
Steve Otto(North Shore)

This has to be a conspiracy, after all it came from Yahoo AU and the vid is Fox News – not the trusted CNN//
3 American scientists working in Wuhan now missing? How ’bout that?
https://nz.news.yahoo.com/trumps-explosive-claims-over-covid-lab-theory-enormous-evidence-214201093.html
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September 21, 2021 1:19pm
- mikenmildagain
  
  I expect Trump’s say-so on this will be treated in the usual way:
  – gospel for the ~~rubes~~ base
  – ignored by the rational community
  
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  September 21, 2021 5:55pm
I remember when

Does the Prime Minister not have enough to do.
Is there no-one else able to tell us where we can find a given testing station, or vaccination centre.
If it is safe to have 100 people at a function at 12.01am on Wednesday morning – why not on Tuesday morning.
Can changes to ‘alert’ Levels only occur in bulk, is it not possible, where only numbers alter, for it to happen instantly.
How many fewer cases than Zero will it take for the South Island to change Levels.
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September 21, 2021 1:30pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  All about show and convincing the sheeple. Se her sanitising her hands today? Holding them up for the camera. Show pony
  
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  September 21, 2021 1:38pm
  - RW Capitalist
    
    More like my little pony.
    A hollow, plastic, fantasy toy.
    
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    September 21, 2021 3:09pm
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      “my Little Pony” does not talk, this socialist pony does and says nothing.
      Hollow plastic fantasy toy?
      You got 200L of mind bleach to sell?
      
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      September 21, 2021 4:54pm
- krazykiwi
  
  The South Island isn’t sentenced to ‘Level 2’ because of case numbers. It has nothing to do with case numbers, or any health metric.
  
  It is all political theater, and the situation will only change if people wake up en masse and demand it.
  
  Confiscated freedoms will never be unilaterally returned.
  
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  September 21, 2021 1:48pm
  - KevO'Brien
    
    South Islanders may have to get a differential tax rate to adjust for the denial of freedom.
    
    3 2
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    September 21, 2021 2:51pm
  - RW Capitalist
    
    They don’t want their voter base in Auckland to get jealous and vote against them.
    
    5 2
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    September 21, 2021 3:08pm
  - cmm
    
    Imagine if SI was back to what it should have been all along – Level 0. Concerts, etc.
    
    How are they going to get any compliance in Jaffaland?
    
    Nope, SI has to do this for the team – show we’re all in this together etc etc.
    
    7 3
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    September 21, 2021 4:43pm
- Inandout
  
  A Bunnings lady said almost with glee in her voice that ‘masks are here to stay, so get used to them’. I decided not to tell her that in aisle 3 two tradies were maskless.
  
  7 2
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  September 21, 2021 3:16pm
  - Inthe09
    
    Lets see how keen she is on them come the middle of summer.
    
    2 0
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    September 21, 2021 6:24pm
Prince

A very strange thing has happened to the vaccination numbers overnight.
Yesterday, total fully vaxed (two doses) was 1,618,673.
That was stated, on the MoH website, as 37.3% of the eligible population.
Therefore, the eligible population must be around 4.34 Miliion people.

Today, on the MoH website, fully vaxed are 1,644,597
That is 37.9% of the (previous) population.
But MoH now says that is 39% eligible population fully vaxed.

So they have reduced the population to 4.22 Million.

Easy to increase your percentages when you reduce the denominator surreptitiously.
(Disclaimer: This may have been explained in today’s podium of truth lecture, but I doubt it. There is no explanatory note on the MoH website).

https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-data-and-statistics/covid-19-vaccine-data#daily

I am relying on a simple spreadsheet I created because I just don’t trust this Government with numbers. If I have missed something, apologies. But t seems clear to me some skulduggery is going on. Jiggery Pokery even. From the supposedly apolitical Public Service.
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September 21, 2021 2:21pm
- krazykiwi
  
  Good catch. It will be interesting to see if this number continues to change.
  
  As for the ‘apolitical Public Service’, I don’t believe this has been the case for a couple of decades. The Public Service are varying shades of red, leftie-activist. More blatant when Labour is in power, and less so when National is in power.
  
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  September 21, 2021 3:38pm
- JackRabbit
  
  Prince, I think I have a potential explanation.
  
  As we know, there is a lot of phoning by Telehealth Services (Whakarongorua Aotearoa) to those who are not yet vaccinated, and who like myself will not get the Covid vaccine.
  
  When they rang and asked why I had not taken up the ‘invitation’ be to vaccinated, I politely said I had weighed up all the data and decided it was not for me.
  
  Aside from my status being updated on the system by the caller as ‘do not contact’ I also declined to be recontacted in 3 or 4 months. So that was also updated as part of the status, never to be recontacted.
  
  Having built and run sales prospect databases for many years, and still do, I understand the way in which stats get interpreted. Whakarongorua Aotearoa is part of the Pegasus group, and this is a telemarketing drive to get vaccine numbers up. Pegasus supply GPs and Clinics with services so even if you get a vaccine at a Clinic as a result of the call, they will profit out of it.
  
  So if I am flagged in the database as a ‘non-prospect’, it would be very easy to treat ‘non-prospects’ as no longer part of the eligible/potential vaccinees. So the total eligible population figure drops instead of the “refused to get vaccinated” figure increasing as part of the original total. I have seen this type of this subtle data reclassifying several times over the years.
  
  And although it is not right in this instance, any sales organisation will be wanting to know total eligible prospects, for future sales etc. in this case booster shots. From a sales pint of view, it makes sense, but from a “what percentage are refusing to take the vaccine” it is open to abuse.
  
  As the figures get reported, probably weekly, the totals get updated. Either way the ‘total eligible’ has dropped from 4,340,000 to 4,220,222 approx or about 120,000 or 2.7% of the original 4,340,000.
  
  We know that right from the beginning of this campaign data has been massaged. Treating ‘vaccine holdouts’ as part of the ineligible section, will be business as usual. So that way it is easy to say, the stats are we have X% vaccinated of all eligible people, than to admit that in the last week or so another 2.7% (120,000) refused. The narrative has to keep the vaccines in the best possible light, so that everyone who is currently un-vaccinated buys the illusion that everyone else ‘except a few nutters’ are getting vaccinated.
  
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  September 21, 2021 5:16pm
  - [email protected]
    
    Thanks for the warning that I might get a phone call asking why I have not yet been vaccinated.
    
    This has given me an opportunity to create an appropriate response. I’m am leaning towards:
    
    “Thank you for calling and your concerns. I know you are being paid to call me and please do not take my response personally.
    
    The reason I have not taken the Covid19 vaccine jab is because I just married a beautiful 19 year old. I am 73 years old and understand that the vaccine negatively affects the libido.
    
    Thank I you for calling but please put me on the ‘no contact list “
    
    6 0
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    September 21, 2021 6:15pm
    - fernglas
      
      So what will your choice be when Pfizer gets approval for 6yrs up to be vaccinated? As they are more likely to die from the vaccine than the virus, the only rational for vaccinating such young children could possibly be that it to protect people like you who have chosen to remain unvaccinated. So are you happy for little kids to risk their lives so you can remain unvaccinated? How very principled of you.
      
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      September 21, 2021 7:04pm
      - fernglas
        
        5-18 years of age in the US; 357 Covid deaths in 18 months
        https://data.cdc.gov/NCHS/Provisional-COVID-19-Deaths-Focus-on-Ages-0-18-Yea/nr4s-juj3
        
        0 0
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        September 21, 2021 8:52pm
  - KevO'Brien
    
    I’ve just had a lot of bumph addressed to me personally from the Health Dept.
    Are they trying to pick us off now one by one? This old Irish mongrel has a lurking anarchist inner.
    
    7 1
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    September 21, 2021 6:22pm
  - Prince
    
    Well I’ve asked the MoH for an explanation, so will advise when/if I get a response. Probably take a few days though.
    BTW, I see the 39.1% figure quoted on TV tonight, so I’m not misreading that.
    
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    September 21, 2021 6:24pm
    - JackRabbit
      
      It will be an explanation, and probably plausible. But unless you get a reply from a whistle blower an hour before he/she resigns, it is unlikely to be the truth.
      
      3 0
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      September 21, 2021 7:15pm
  - miltonF
    
    If this is true then “eligible population” actually means “willing population”. The government should be saying “we have fully vaccinated 39% of those who are eligible and willing to be vaccinated”. Big difference.
    
    It’s very deceptive because even at 100% of the govt’s “eligible population” vaccinated, we may still have 30% of the total population unvaccinated or more. That would make herd immunity via vaccines impossible, and that’s not even considering the low efficacy of the vaccine.
    
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    September 21, 2021 10:42pm
- MCos
  
  The estimated number of residents on 30-June 2021 was 5,122,600 of whom an estimated 968,600 were under 15yo. If there is an equal number of kids for each age under 15yo then 0-12yo would be 840,000 kids. So that’s about 4.285mil
  
  Fully vaxxed would be 38.4%
  
  https://www.stats.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/National-population-estimates/National-population-estimates-At-30-June-2021/Download-data/national-population-estimates-at-30-june-2021.xlsx
  
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  September 21, 2021 9:32pm
RW Capitalist

Provocative argument?
Observation:
In my 61 yrs, I don’t believe I have heard the word “Safe” or “Safety” used in one YEAR, as much as I am hearing it every week.
I would suggest that NO ONE can keep you safer than you can.
Look both ways when you cross the street (your phone does not have an app for that)
Think and look before you DO anything
and remember
The only people, in history, to achieve anything….
took risks.
The motto of the SAS is
“who dares wins” seems we all need a reminder.
Don’t need a reminder to:
Stay home if you are sick…your mother told you that
Avoid dangerous situations, especially if there is no gain in the risk.
Think BEFORE you act
Do we really need an ex fish and chip girl, to tell us that?
19 3
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September 21, 2021 3:06pm
- cmm
  
  We now live in an age where schools send texts to parents on Sunday evening to remind them that tomorrow is a school day.
  
  Victim culture has brought us that low.
  
  10 2
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  September 21, 2021 4:38pm
  - Ehlana
    
    Goodness, which school was that?
    
    3 1
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    September 21, 2021 4:49pm
  - [email protected]
    
    It is dumb for schools to be sending texts messages to remind people to send their kids to school. Next someone will be responsible to tell people to eat, exercise and get Covid shots.
    
    Wait, they are already telling people to get covid shots via text messages. Dumb me.
    
    5 0
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    September 21, 2021 6:00pm
Maggy Wassilieff

Three Uni students who fled lockdown 4 in Auckland to come to Gisborne are to face Restorative Justice.

https://www.gisborneherald.co.nz/local-news/20210921/uni-students-who-breached-border-to-face-restorative-justice-panel/
7 0
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September 21, 2021 3:38pm
- Ehlana
  
  I wonder how you pick a panel for that – who are the “community” here – the people of Gisborne? or Auckland?
  
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  September 21, 2021 4:51pm
- KevO'Brien
  
  What are they to do? Restore the viri they brought with them?
  
  3 1
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  September 21, 2021 6:14pm
ByGolly

Now it’s SHOTCUZZ…
Why do we encourage mediocrity in this country ?

I know, silly question.
6 2
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September 21, 2021 4:36pm
- mikenmildagain
  
  Maggy Wassilief might be able to tell us if ‘shot cuz’ is more or less an incitement to violence than ‘shot bro’.
  
  3 7
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  September 21, 2021 5:18pm
  - JackRabbit
    
    If it is, it is Marama Davidson and Takutai Kemp that plan to do the “shooting” and inciting violence.
    
    A separate named bus for Maoris, called ShotCuzz, is about as Racist as you can get.
    
    Hon Marama Davidson MP and Manurewa Marae Chief Executive Officer Takutai Kemp at the launch of ShotCuzz, a bus designed to make the Covid-19 vaccination more accessible in the South Auckland community.
    
    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/shotcuzz-bringing-vaccinations-to-the-people/2VEYPELUXPPN6TC7GU2F7WNSDQ/
    
    3 1
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    September 21, 2021 5:32pm
  - JamesP
    
    Extended family violence?
    
    0 0
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    September 21, 2021 9:05pm
jon

Can start to understand the huge ongoing demo in Melbourne today. Given the many prolonged lockdowns imposed by Premier Andrews civil disobedience has finally arrived. Media representatives have unsurprisingly been on the receiving end of anger from protesters an action that wont be met with much sympathy for MSM from many on here.
12 0
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September 21, 2021 5:33pm
- Tom Hunter
  
  Haha. Covered some of this in When the Illusion shatters.
  
  The protest by the CFME Union members against their own leadership is an eye opener.
  
  6 1
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  September 21, 2021 6:28pm
- Fletch
  
  What was interesting to me is that they started to show the story of the protest on 1 News, it was interrupted by a big screen that said ‘Delta’ and they stopped the story, apologized, and came back to it later. Why? Did they edit it for something? Who knows.
  
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  September 21, 2021 7:48pm
mikenmildagain

Justin Trudeau’s Liberals remain the largest party Canada’s parliament, so he is likely to form the next (minority) government.
4 10
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September 21, 2021 5:38pm
- Benedict Yu
  
  You seem pleased.
  
  6 0
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  September 21, 2021 6:27pm
- rangitoto
  
  They are crazy to vote for Castro.
  
  2 0
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  September 21, 2021 8:50pm
Benedict Yu

Every time I hear Julie Anne Genter speak I feel like buying a V8 Land Cruiser.
14 1
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September 21, 2021 5:55pm
Russ the Muss

4K for non compliance, on the spot instant fine!!! Of all the strange goings on with Covid. This to me is the worst! That a beat cop can fine you 4k for no mask is staggering, im absolutely livid! That is a massive amount of money and only a court should be allowed to impose that. Am I alone here? What are other thoughts out there in this? I am simply astonished that this can happen without parliament approval.
12 1
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September 21, 2021 6:24pm
- krazykiwi
  
  $4k in NZ?
  
  2 1
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  September 21, 2021 8:51pm
greybeard

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300412481/covid19-man-found-hiding-in-car-boot-trying-to-leave-auckland-in-border-breach
Some people will do ANYTHING to get to the Kapiti Coast………………..
3 0
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September 21, 2021 6:38pm
Northshoredoc

Disgraceful hypocritical junket ……

“Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern has defended the trip to Glasgow for the COP26 climate talks, stating New Zealand’s presence at the talks is “important”.

“Yes we are facing a global pandemic, but climate change is the most significant threat that we face for decades to come, and that needs a response from us now.”

She also confirmed the delegation would have MIQ spaces set aside rather than having to go through the overloaded virtual queue system.”

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-delta-outbreak-climate-change-minister-james-shaw-taking-nine-staff-to-glasgow-scotland-for-cop26-talks/XW7DYQHJRWZTWA3D6IGIS3JOGU/
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September 21, 2021 7:44pm
Fletch

Scaremongering story about the under-12’s and Delta. You just watch, they will be vaccinating young children, next.

https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/more-than-200-under-12s-caught-covid-in-delta-outbreak
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September 21, 2021 7:50pm
- krazykiwi
  
  There are 13,500,000 children aged 0-14 in the UK. Since 1-Jan-2021 15 have died of Covid-19 and based on current knowledge 14 of them will have have 1 or more comorbidities. These are facts. Our media are a fear-stoking disgrace.
  
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  September 21, 2021 8:58pm
  - fernglas
    
    The UK figure is 39 since the outbreak began last year, (of which 90% had one or more co-morbidities). That’s about 1 child death per 2 million population, compared to the US figure of about 357, or about 1 child per million population. In NZ, that would be 2.5 from the team of 5 million over 18 months.
    Six times more are beaten to death over that period by their families. Think about that for a second.
    The only possible justification for vaccinating children is to protect adults, particularly those who have not been vaccinated themselves. That is utterly shameful when the vaccine is so novel and untested; it would be immoral if it was a stable and well-proven vaccine. But this is what your government and others around the world are looking at. It’s a disgrace.
    
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    September 21, 2021 9:12pm
- fernglas
  
  See my comment above. The relevant statistic is how many of these kids even had symptoms, let alone were hospitalised. To vaccinate kids who don’t need the vaccine in order to protect older people who, for whatever reason, choose not to be vaccinated, is utterly immoral, and those who are prepared to accept that children should be exposed to the risk of the vaccine, so that they don’t have to be, are cowardly, amoral and selfish pieces of shit.
  
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  September 21, 2021 9:02pm
fernglas

So the Taranaki DHB gives you a bacon sandwich if you get vaccinated? First, bacon sandwiches are the type of food that contributes to people dying of Covid, because of obesity. Second, does this mean Jews, Moslems and vegans are not allowed to be vaccinated?
Thanks NZ, for another real (pork) belly laugh at your Covid strategy.
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September 21, 2021 8:45pm

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