General Debate 26 February 2023

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Chuck Bird

This video is David Seymour being interviewed by Sean Plunket. He points out how slash used to be burned until the Greens had this stopped to save the planet.

David Seymour on climate change adaption

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjwnzK5Vzm8
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February 26, 2023 8:04am
- Ignoranus
  
  How does not burning wood in the back blocks ‘save the planet’?
  
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  February 26, 2023 8:10am
  - Chris Nisbet
    
    Let’s see. Let’s apply ‘green’ logic for a minute.
    Not burning the slash results in massive destruction of property when natural storms strike.
    This wipes out life savings as etc.
    This results in shorter lives due to increased stress, and decreased standard of living.
    Umm, I’m struggling now, but this must obviously be good for the planet, and we all know that this is way more important than human flourishing.
    
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    February 26, 2023 9:38am
    - backster
      
      You have to protect the Huhu Bugs,beetles, and cockroaches.
      
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      February 26, 2023 9:42am
    - pdm
      
      There are some greens Chris who want to take New Zealand back to the dark ages of Feudal Life.
      
      Was that not the forerunner to communism?
      
      Control the peasants.
      Control the peasants.
      
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      February 26, 2023 10:19am
  - sirknz
    
    Because wood isn’t the carbon that the ‘Green’ ideology wants to reduce.
    
    The only thing that the left seems to be any good at is causing the deaths of many people in a short space of time.
    
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    February 26, 2023 9:45am
  - G the giant from Dunedin
    
    I think the Greens suggest the carbon released from burning, but rotting wood also gives off carbon as well, crazy actually, just like volcanoes that give off huge carbon, you can not stop that, but greens think that’s nature and that’s different
    
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    February 26, 2023 9:59am
    - Stellaboxer
      
      No no no you let the wood rot where it falls and don’t allow it to be burned or gathered for firewood whilst at the same time you fell healthy trees and cut them up for firewood. Meanwhile whilst pine trees are being planted across the country to save the planet gangs of DOC workers are busy poisoning them on conservation land as pests. When the wood that’s been left to rot to save the planet causes an environmental disaster you blame climate change and tell everyone how lucky they are that you have been implementing the measures that you so far have and how it proves you should be given a mandate to make more rules , regulations and laws.
      
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      February 26, 2023 11:06am
      - Tom Hunter
        
        Perhaps it’s just Keynesian economics, where the government buries millions of dollars in a mine and then pays people to dig it up!
        
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        February 26, 2023 12:57pm
    - Taieri
      
      I think the Greens suggest the carbon released from burning, but rotting wood also gives off carbon as well
      ———————–
      
      No carbon is released by burning or rotting. The substance is called carbon dioxide. Do you drink hydrogen?
      
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      February 26, 2023 12:18pm
- Matt Long
  
  He did very well in the first half of the interview, acknowledged the very real danger that Luxon is likely to seek a coalition with the Greens to neutralise Act and that Luxon on board with thee radicle climate agenda.
  I think people thinking of supporting National in this election would do well to listen carefully to the first half of the interview.
  And think about this; Todd Muller as Agriculture and Climate Change Minister, chosen by Luxon.
  
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  February 26, 2023 8:58am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Is Luxon really that desperate? Green coalition?
    This fool is going to lose the Election for us, and we end up with another 3 fucking years of Communist Labour.
    No thanks.
    
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    February 26, 2023 9:11am
    - PeeJay
      
      If only it would just be ‘communist labour’. Nope, the real worry is that it could be far worse than that – it could easily be Labour-Greens-Maori. If that eventuates, 3 years of that shit will mean the last 5.5 years is remembered as a period of reasonably competent government!!!
      
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      February 26, 2023 9:50am
      - I remember when
        
        Peejay:
        You’re not that Jemmy Lynch are you???
        Trying to crowbar National out of the Election.
        
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        February 26, 2023 1:03pm
    - G the giant from Dunedin
      
      That’s bullshit, can you see that happening
      
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      February 26, 2023 10:04am
      - Stellaboxer
        
        G the giant yes I can but the results of that coalition I will witness from afar.
        
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        February 26, 2023 11:09am
    - Prince
      
      It’s Seymour suggesting this.
      Why ?
      Well it’s pretty obvious.
      
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      February 26, 2023 11:39am
      - Tom Hunter
        
        He’s clever, but then he also has the lesson about National joining the Maori Party in coalition, along with ACT, in order to neutralise ACT policies, especially about getting rid of the Maori seats.
        
        We now know that was driven by the likes of Wayne Mapp and Chris Finlayson:
        
        I know some here noted that National used to have a policy to do away with the Maori electoral seats. That policy never had a chance of proceeding because there was way too much resistance in the caucus to actually do it. In the end the policy was quietly dropped.
        
        Also more recently on this forum he has boasted quite smugly about how clever National was in so dealing with ACT. Seymour is likely well aware of that history.
        
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        February 26, 2023 1:11pm
      - Tom Hunter
        
        Oh, and these quotes from the same post:
        
        The policy of abolishing the Maori seats was never a core policy. There were other things that were way more important. So those who supported it, or in fact had come up with it, never even tried to push the policy within caucus to actually implement it.
        …
        Once John Key did the deal with the Maori Party in 2008, the policy simply disappeared from discussion. Everyone understood that such a policy could not survive when doing a deal with the Maori Party. That deal was done in order to balance Act, so between 2008 and 2017 National was never dependent on a single coalition partner.
        
        Reminder to all voters if you get to talk to a National candidate and they talk about policy: ask them if it’s core policy
        
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        February 26, 2023 1:20pm
      - nathie
        
        Don’t think the earlier “lesson” is relevant nowadays. They were different times and involved different people – none of them are around now.
        
        The Maori Party of 2008 (except for Hone Harawira who threw a tantrum, waka jumped and setup his own party) were somewhat Left/Centre-Left.
        
        The Maori Party of 2020/2023 is a Far-Left radical activist party and are racist.
        
        They are like the Far-Left Greens, there is no way the MP would go into coalition with National.
        
        They would be a nightmare for National to work with (and vice versa).
        
        Suggest if Labour somehow win the 2023 election and are forced to work with the Maori Party, the MP emboldened by the Greens will make Labour’s new “coalition of losers” very hard to govern and could come crashing down.
        
        So don’t think Seymour has much to worry about personally …
        
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        February 26, 2023 4:00pm
      - Tom Hunter
        
        Oh I know. At the time (not knowing the internal machinations of Finlayson-Mapp) I even entertained the possibility that a National-Maori Party coalition might begin to break the hold of the Left on the Maori vote.
        
        Pfft! All that happened was that the Maori Party got punished by their voters for cooperating with the enemy, hence the loss of sensible people like Sharples and the rise of Waititi and other ethno-nationalist, racist fanatics.
        
        Having said that I can’t help thinking that a Labour-Green-Maori coalition government might be a silver lining – assuming we can survive the hate, the social and economic carnage, because lessons would be learned.
        
        Even by National.
        
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        February 26, 2023 4:43pm
    - C-Town
      
      I used to think it might be a good idea for National to go into coalition with the Green Party as it would completely tear the Green Party apart and render the unelectable for future elections. There would be so many Greens appalled at the idea of going into coalition with National, especially its grass roots and youth members that they’d rebel and quit the party. Their support would evaporate very quickly and they’d never be elected again for a very long time.
      
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      February 26, 2023 1:31pm
  - BeaB
    
    Your choice is easy. Vote Labour Greens. Good luck.
    
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    February 26, 2023 9:55am
    - ClanMcleod
      
      Well listening to Luxon it is increasingly sounding like it doesn’t actually matter who we vote for. It’s depressing listening to the clowns in all parties in Wellington. This country is going further down the toilet with each passing year.
      I guess I’ll have to give my votes to Act and hope for the best.
      
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      February 26, 2023 10:16am
    - Matt Long
      
      Did you enjoy the interview? I do wonder how you got from it to vote Labour Green?
      
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      February 26, 2023 11:10am
      - Prince
        
        The problem with Act is a Labour/Act coalition is possible.
        
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        February 26, 2023 11:40am
      - Matt Long
        
        😆
        
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        February 26, 2023 12:08pm
  - G the giant from Dunedin
    
    Muller was a very respected agri spokesman before, don’t say no, because I have worked in agri all my life, and he was respected by everyone that I have heard from
    
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    February 26, 2023 10:03am
    - Don Beckett
      
      May be so – but he’s now fully on board with the green agenda, including reducing farm herds by 20% etc. He’s more wet than Luxon. I have been so disappointed over the past few months in our “alternative” govt.
      
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      February 26, 2023 10:21am
      - G the giant from Dunedin
        
        He was accused of being a full on greenie before, but his plan for dropping emissions on farms would be science based, a huge difference in grass seed and feed has happened in the last 5 years, but this rotten government will not give farmers credit for using lower emission materials
        
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        February 26, 2023 10:40am
      - Stellaboxer
        
        Don our system gives you an illusion of choice. Fundamentally the two main parties are the same with a fringe of harder line versions of the centre on either side. Look at how they all sang from the same song book during Covid. Some sang louder and more earnestly than others but it was the same song.
        
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        February 26, 2023 11:15am
    - Dougal10
      
      Not from any of the agri or hort people I know, you are blinded by your nat blinkers on muller.
      
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      February 26, 2023 12:17pm
    - Tom Hunter
      
      I don’t recall any other Fonterra shareholder/suppliers being impressed with him, especially when it became obvious that he and a bunch of other high-6-figure management twits had come close to bankrupting the company with all their ideas about overseas expansion while constantly trying to placate the Green fanatics.
      
      I always wondered which executives were pushing that last line and now I know, but I’m sure Muller was not alone, just as he’s not alone in travelling the same path now within the National Party.
      
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      February 26, 2023 1:23pm
      - Dougal10
        
        Willis was in fontera for a while too . The legacy of those past executives has been an expensive lesson for nz dairy farmers
        
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        February 26, 2023 1:40pm
  - Jimbob
    
    Matt, what dream was that from. This rubbishing of Luxon has reached fever pitch. You’re tying yourself in knots.
    
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    February 26, 2023 10:09am
- MCōs
  
  Is it illegal to burn slash or is it too dangerous?
  
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  February 26, 2023 9:03am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Ask cannabis Chloe, we are all normal here.
    
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    February 26, 2023 9:13am
  - pdm
    
    Mcos – just another Green `anti New Zealand’ project from 20 or 30 years ago.
    
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    February 26, 2023 9:30am
  - backster
    
    As I understand Pines are usually planted about 1000 to an acre. At a certain age and growth they are thinned to about 500, The thinnings are sometimes processed for fence posts etc but generally left to rot. Those still in the ground are pruned to about 18ft to give knot free timber. The prunings are left to rot and constitute little danger. The danger is after the forest is logged and all that remains on site is the Thinnings and prunings exposed to the onslaught of weather.
    In many cases the forest was planted after excessive weather caused great slips and the forest held the land together. No way could you burn in or near a forest.
    
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    February 26, 2023 9:59am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Once again, the Greens forced policies become the root of destruction. Burning slash is bad why?
  They are much, much more that a bunch of crazy tree huggers. Their social engineering has to stop.
  A glaring example was Pike River. It should have been open cast. But no, it had to be underground because the trees, snails and dickie birds could be damaged. So then ventilation shafts, notice shafts = more than one. Nope, only one shaft. In hindsight that was downright crazy. Management problems did not help either.
  Promoting your brand as environmentally conscious is called greenwashing. Er this is a good policy because it is good for the planet bollocks.
  I would like to see a breakwater at Takapuna beach for safer swimming, but no, the beach will not self clean according to the Greens. Listen you numb nuts, it works ate Waikiki Hawaii.
  Fuck, rant over,
  
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  February 26, 2023 9:08am
  - septic skeptic
    
    Open cast was never proposed at Pike.
    
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    February 26, 2023 10:03am
    - the deity formerly known as nigel6888
      
      I believe it was. Apparently there was a native snail.
      
      Pike River was also given environmental awards by the then Prime Minister Helen Clark.
      
      It was a very “green” mine, at least until it went boom, then of course all the awards were quickly forgotten in a stampede by politicians to forget all about why it was built the way it was.
      
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      February 26, 2023 10:19am
    - Don Beckett
      
      Yes it was.
      
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      February 26, 2023 10:24am
    - Bob
      
      never proposed at Pike…..
      Yes it was; that was the original choice of development of the MINE.
      GREENIE govt officials spiked that, and would only issue a permit if the mine was underground. They hoped that this more expensive option would kill the idea of developing a mine. IT ONLY KILLED 29 MINERS
      
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      February 26, 2023 11:14am
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      Yes it was.
      
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      February 26, 2023 12:28pm
  - Paulus
    
    Understand that they ? are going to re drill Pike River again – I thought that all the money that could be spent has !
    
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    February 26, 2023 10:24am
  - G the giant from Dunedin
    
    Yes I have seen the reef they use at Waikiki, they have that large swimming area off the beach, people swim across like a swimming pool
    
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    February 26, 2023 10:43am
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      Great isn’t it? So safe for kids and adults. No jetskis or boats.
      With all of the money on the North Shore, Takapuna is the worst ramp in Auckland in a northeast. Waves would fly over a breakwater in a high tide. Our tides rise and fall can be 12 feet or more. At Waikiki I never noticed a high or low. Maybe that is a reason Takapuna can not have it?
      Anyway, next year we are off to Hawaii then Alaska.
      Aston Waikiki Beach is just magic, we will never change.
      
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      February 26, 2023 1:07pm
      - Don Beckett
        
        Spent six great in Honolulu with SWAMBO & a couple of friends, motel 5 mins. walk to Waikiki. Really enjoyed Hawaii. Were on our way to a sailing regatta in Bellingham, WA in 2002, but because of the recent 911 event, the yanks were extremely jumpy. So we flew into Vancouver & met up with the othere 15 in the party, then hired a minibus down to Bellingham.
        The border guards on th US side were still very stressed – the Canucks not so much. Great trip though, & being there on the 1st. annivesary of 911, most impressed with the way the yanks do their ‘pageantry’. Stayed with a neat young couple with their 3 daughters – most enjoyable time.
        
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        February 26, 2023 2:05pm
      - G the giant from Dunedin
        
        Exactly
        
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        February 26, 2023 8:45pm
- Rich Prick
  
  Same with the Victorian bushfires and removing trees near houses. The Greens really are a plague upon us.
  
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  February 26, 2023 9:10am
  - G the giant from Dunedin
    
    Same in California, another left wing shit hole
    
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    February 26, 2023 10:05am
  - the deity formerly known as nigel6888
    
    recall the fireman fined for clearing trees around his house – 50m back all round. He planted thousands elsewhere, but still got prosecuted.
    
    Last laugh – his house stayed unburned during the big fires.
    
    Maybe forest managers, and professional firefighters know something about fire load and bushfires?
    
    But townie student politicians always know better….
    
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    February 26, 2023 10:21am
    - kowtow
      
      Yep , the hip types insist on building houses in fire prone forests , insist the trees are left there untouched and then have a cry when everything gets burned to a cinder .
      
      Meanwhile good folk get killed trying to fight the fires that these people make worse.
      
      And te media pardy then blames man made global warming when fires are bigger and more catastrophic than in the past , simply because the forest litter has been allowed to build up to atomic bomb energy levels .
      
      ( same in USA as already mentioned)
      
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      February 26, 2023 12:54pm
      - Don Beckett
        
        Same in NSW when I lived there in Wollongong in the 1980’s. Greens prevent burn-off of underscrub – every 4 or 5 years hot dry Spring – escarpment erupts in bush fires.
        The bastards never learn.
        
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        February 26, 2023 2:09pm
- Colville
  
  I am as keen to put the boot into the looney Melons as the next bloke but I would take Seymours comments with a grain of salt.
  
  Ground based logging where an excavator type machine with a logging head on it fells and de-limbs the fallen tree is significantly cheaper/faster/less skilled than having a bloke with a saw do it. BUT it leaves the limbs on the side of the hill and not at the skid site in a bloody great pile.
  
  The justification used for leaving the limbs on the hillside is that they rot down and the nutrients go back into the soil to help next rotation of trees.
  
  So its a money thing not a Green thing.
  
  My 2 cents anyway.
  
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  February 26, 2023 11:09am
  - Matt Long
    
    However the collapse of skidsites and concentrated debris from them was given as a major factor in the flooding damage in Golden Bay(?) Northern South Island.
    
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    February 26, 2023 12:05pm
  - I remember when
    
    Colville:
    A major reason for the use of mechanical harvesting is the safety of the crews involved, especially in steep country which presents extra danger for forestry crews.
    ‘nutrients go back into the soil to help the next rotation.’
    Second rotation forests almost invariably result in better crops, so yes its a money thing, but also a ‘natural’ agricultural and horticultural practice.
    
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    February 26, 2023 1:29pm
- Jim
  
  Same Green zealots pushed the Government into untreated timber in the building industry (1997-2004 from memory).
  
  If you own one of those era houses, good luck and ensure you keep your gutters clear. Let’s not even consider if it’s design is leak prone or it’s been built on a flood zone.
  
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  February 26, 2023 12:59pm
- lemuzz
  
  There has been a ban on lighting fires within forestry areas for at least the past 60 years. I know as I was with the fire service for 32 of those years. I was also in an industry that regularly used forestry tracks. To get a permit to travel on these tracks we had to carry a fire extinguisher and be permited and that NO fires were to be lit and sign a form to agree to the Forestry rules. There is no way that the forestry owners would risk billions of dollars by allowing slash to be burnt on site. I know that slash, stumps and dead trees are a big problem and that the trees shouldn’t have been planted on this steep ground, but they were and we now have to deal with the problem. The cost to remove this would be totally uneconomic. It can’t be chipped as the fibre board and paper industry don’t want bark in the chips. Keep in mind that tree harvesting is largely mechanized with tree processors able to cut the tree from its stump, de-limb and cut the log to the required length and trundle it to the skid site far faster than any stump grinder can handle the stump and there many tree harvesters working. So that leaves stump burial. I can remember the rows and rows of stumps in Canterbury after winds took out many forests and plantations. These took years to decay and turn into farm land. This cannot be done in the steep country in Hawkes Bay where these forests are. I think we are, in the short term just having to live with what we have got.
  
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  February 26, 2023 2:57pm
I remember when

Plantation Forestry National Regulations:
The National Environmental Standards for Plantation (NES-PF) came into force on 1 May, 2018.
Applies to any forest of at least one hectare that has beem planted specifically for commercial purposes and will be harvested.
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February 26, 2023 8:06am
Ignoranus

Yesterday 40 of us agreed Maureen Pugh was too scared to admit she believed the bad weather was an Act of God.

Why is God so angry with us? Is it something we’ve done wrong?
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February 26, 2023 8:07am
- Bob
  
  Why is God so angry with us……
  YES! because we keep voting for stupidity and ignorance.. i.e Socialists and Greenies.
  
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  February 26, 2023 9:38am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  What we have done wrong is allowing ourselves to be duped by socialists/communists.
  Did you notice that when it got to hot in the kitchen, Jaspinda fled? Smartest thing she ever did for NZ.
  
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  February 26, 2023 9:55am
  - Paulus
    
    Whilst Jacinda ran away look at the almighty mess that she has left for others to try and sort out.
    
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    February 26, 2023 10:26am
    - Bob
      
      Standard Socialist behaviour!
      
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      February 26, 2023 11:17am
- Wayne Mapp
  
  “Forty of us”. An unusual level of uniform opinion. In what circumstances were the 40 together?
  
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  February 26, 2023 11:48am
Jimmy Brown

They wana restart the practice of burning slash. Throw the greenies on top of the pile for better combustion.
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February 26, 2023 8:18am
- Albie
  
  It’ll only dampen the blaze if you do that, they’re too wet!
  
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  February 26, 2023 9:44am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    No! Shit burns real well, excellent fuel.
    
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    February 26, 2023 9:57am
    - Don Beckett
      
      Only when it’s dried out. 😆
      
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      February 26, 2023 10:26am
Tomtoddy

Seymour is talking more sense than Luxon at this point. I am not too worried about Luxon being a wet because he has to win the centre and the centre in NZ has become sopping wet. But if the country is ever going to progress and become a more pleasant place to live then Seymour will need to be close to the big decisions.

National do not have record of reform. They are a status quo party mostly. They need a lot of strong pushing to make the vitally needed changes to fix the mess left by the present lot.

The question about Seymour is can he do it all himself?? He needs more heavy hitters alongside him.
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February 26, 2023 8:20am
- Dougal10
  
  Luxon needs to get rid of the wet blankets around him like Muller and Bishop , that will give him more credibility .
  
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  February 26, 2023 8:31am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Credibility, and stability.
    
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    February 26, 2023 9:59am
  - Colville
    
    First Luxon needs to win the bloody election and that is looking to be a close thing.
    
    How about one step at a time??
    
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    February 26, 2023 11:14am
  - kowtow
    
    Er , he is one of those blankets .
    
    Wasn’t that what the coups were all about .
    
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    February 26, 2023 12:57pm
- Philview
  
  The alternative this year will be a Labour/Green/Maori Party Coalition Government. Coalition agreement red lines will massive tax rises and implementation of He Puapua and scaling back of democracy. I would take a moderate Chris Luxon anyday.
  
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  February 26, 2023 8:44am
  - Bob
    
    This year’s election is about the ‘future of DEMOCRACY’ in NZ
    
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    February 26, 2023 9:44am
    - Ghost
      
      Na. This years election is just like all the ones before, voting in a new face to carry out the same agenda. The path may sound a little different, but the destination is the same
      
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      February 26, 2023 9:49am
  - Paulus
    
    With the current Ardern economy who the hell would want to try and sort out her mess.
    Where would yoy start ?
    
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    February 26, 2023 1:16pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  With Luxon silencing Maureen Pugh’s free speech last week, I have really had enough of his nonsense. Until he breaks away from cuddling the socialists he will not get my votes – both candidate and party.
  Hey Luxon, we live in a fucking Democracy OK? You can not tell others how to think!
  Censoring Maureen Pugh was the last straw. It was wrong.
  I am more that happy to be a big hitter for David Seymour. To spread and compare policies and non-policies.
  
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  February 26, 2023 8:47am
  - Wayne Mapp
    
    If you agree to be a member of the National Party caucus you also agree to abide by party policy. As Luxon made clear in yesterday’s speech,
    National accepts that there is anthropogenic climate change, and has done for some time. For instance last years vote for net zero by 2050. So Maureen does not have the freedom to publicly depart from that view.
    I simply don’t understand how you cannot see why caucus discipline is required with respect to agreed party positions. I can only presume that is because you don’t agree with the science of anthropogenic climate change. That’s fine, you don’t have a requirement to accept caucus discipline.
    Your characterisation of Luxon restricting free speech is a deliberate misunderstanding of the role of caucus discipline. In fact it is simply an expression of your view of climate change.
    
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    February 26, 2023 9:00am
    - Yvette
      
      Wayne Mapp – So Maureen does not have the freedom to publicly depart from that view.
      
      Maureen Pugh said –
      I have yet to see the response from James Shaw, where one of our local councils wrote to him and asked him for the evidence before they impacted their rate payers.[1] – from video trans-script
      
      This was then typically reported as –
      … she hadn’t seen evidence of man-made climate change, but was waiting for — quite specifically — Climate Change Minister James Shaw to provide her with the evidence [1]
      
      – editing out anything about “our local councils wrote to [Shaw]”
      
      Any real journalist of a bygone era – Shaun Brown, Ian Johnstone, Lindsay Perigo, Simon Walker, or Fred Dagg – would have asked Pugh what exactly was her view on climate change, or was she trying to hang one on Shaw, and in that amateurish attempt, she was in fact as “fucking useless” as Simon Bridges told Jami-Lee Ross she was.
      
      What is much worse, is that Luxon didn’t get to the bottom of this, and came up with his own example of “fucking uselessness” in saying he had spoken to Pugh and given her a reading list.
      
      National again snatched stupidity from the jaws of fate.
      People who thought Luxon was just “keeping his powder dry” should contemplate how really “wet” he is.
      
      __________
      [1] https://www.1news.co.nz/2023/02/21/analysis-pughs-climate-change-denial-is-bad-science-and-bad-politics includes video with Pugh’s attempt to smear Shaw, but media made it a backfire for Sure
      
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      December 26, 2022 9:53am
      - Yvette
        
        Dear Moderator – please remove the link because 1-News seems to have changed the item on their website.
        
        [Mod – fixed link]
        
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        February 26, 2023 10:03am
      - Widogast Corwin
        
        “… where one of our local councils wrote to him and asked him for the evidence…”
        
        Evidence of what?
        
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        February 26, 2023 10:26am
      - ClanMcleod
        
        Luxon is rapidly becoming as dangerous as Ardern was.
        
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        February 26, 2023 10:27am
      - Nothelen
        
        There is a Youtube clip where the WCRC discussed the climate change issue and decided to ask the Minister the question. They wanted to know the NZ official figure for the amount of climate change that is attributed to human activity here. It was the new council so I am thinking it would have been before Christmas. Surprised they never received a reply.
        
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        February 26, 2023 11:45am
      - Chris Nisbet
        
        @Widogast Corwin
        I think she was after some sort of evidence that the pile of money ratepayers were about to fork out to address some ‘climate change’ issue was actually going to achieve something.
        No doubt she asked the question thinking she was being a bit clever because she, along with the reset of us, know that it wasn’t going to achieve anything.
        Did you know that countries have already ‘invested’ ~$5tn trying to fix ‘climate change’ and apparently
        – reduced FF usage by a couple of percent or so
        – CO2 increases haven’t changed
        – the climate is doing what it’s always done
        
        – We have made a pile of people colder and poorer though.
        
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        February 26, 2023 12:03pm
      - Widogast Corwin
        
        I agree. Fossil fuel share in energy has hardly changed.
        
        Unfortunately for Ms Pugh, National supports most of the Government’s climate change policies. She can either support that position or resign.
        
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        February 26, 2023 1:01pm
    - Spam
      
      Wayne – you can believe in global warming, and still believe that the flooding in Gisborne & Hawkes Bay was not caused or by it. They are not mutually exclusive positions. The IPCC has specifically said that they have “low confidence” in a link between climate change and flooding, and also low confidence in a link between cyclones and global warming.
      
      Politicising this awful flooding as being “Climate Change” is ignorant. And worse, it is applied as a useful excuse and distraction over real failings – failure to deal with slash (which apparently can’t be burned, because climate change) and infrastructure that could mitigate flooding.
      
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      February 26, 2023 9:05am
      - Richard
        
        No one is talking about the eruption in Tonga. Apparently the moisture it added to the atmosphere will impact rainfall for the next 5 years. It’s easier (and trendy) to say ‘climate change’ caused the cyclone.
        
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        February 26, 2023 9:11am
      - Widogast Corwin
        
        None of that matters. Of course you can’t state that the cyclone was “caused” by climate change. Luxon was stupid to say so.
        
        However that does not mean that Maureen Pugh can say whatever she likes in public.
        
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        February 26, 2023 9:12am
      - pdm
        
        widegast.
        
        Maureen Pugh was asking a legitimate question of James Shaw’s reluctance/inability to answer a constituent councils question re Climate Change.
        
        She got unfairly slayed for it.
        
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        February 26, 2023 9:35am
      - Widogast Corwin
        
        What was this “question”?
        
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        February 26, 2023 9:38am
      - Bob
        
        and infrastructure …..
        I am still waiting for the investigative journalist who is brave enough to question the part of Council -local body and Regional- in these floods.
        I think that so far only a BUS DRIVER out on the streets has identified the cause of flooding.
        LACK OF COUNCIL ATTENTION TO CLEANING STORMWATER SUMPS, CLEARING DRAINS, STREAM AND RIVER MOUTHS TO PERMIT A FREE FLOW OF WATER.
        And how much do we pay these so called civil servants.
        
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        February 26, 2023 9:48am
      - Gravelroad
        
        @spam and others-
        Please read what Wayne Mapp says above.
        This issue with Ms Pugh is not about her beliefs.
        It is about her commitment to adhering publicly to her party’s policies – especially in an election year.
        If Ms Pugh does not wish to conform publicly to the political party to which she belongs, and which facilitated her current job in Parliament – then she can go with her conscience and resign , or not stand for re-election.
        
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        February 26, 2023 10:20am
      - pdm
        
        Widogast – apologies for reporting – thought I was hitting reply.
        
        See Yvette above for answer to your query.
        
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        February 26, 2023 10:24am
      - Yvette
        
        As Bob comments above –
        I think that so far only a BUS DRIVER out on the streets has identified the cause of flooding.
        LACK OF COUNCIL ATTENTION TO CLEANING STORMWATER SUMPS, CLEARING DRAINS, STREAM AND RIVER MOUTHS TO PERMIT A FREE FLOW OF WATER.
        
        Maureen Pugh in fact raised the matter, Bob, but unfortunately was as inept in that as her attempt to smear James Shaw for not answering a local council request for factual evidence – before “impacting” their ratepayers (presumably with higher rates)
        
        Pugh’s effort –
        The first question was relatively benign — did she believe climate change made Cyclone Gabrielle worse than it would have otherwise been?
        The answer was odd — a comment about how damage in Auckland had been caused by people not able to “prune and manage trees”. Odd, but not enough to inspire headlines.
        Then: Did she believe in man-made climate change?
        
        A similar situation applies in the USA in particular – not clearing forest fire breaks, and other forest debris and fuel (like slash), before fire devastates vast forest tracts and it is blamed solely on “climate change”. not partly on poor forest husbandry (or whatever the woke word is now for “husbandry”).
        
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        February 26, 2023 11:03am
      - Spam
        
        @GravelRoad
        Yes, I get party discipline. However what we saw from Luxon was not, in my opinion, a demonstration of that.
        
        Instead of looking at what Pugh said and the reasonableness (or otherwise), he sopped to the media line that she was / is a climate change denier.
        
        He had an opportunity to show leadership, and he failed.
        
        It would have been entirely reasonable for him t0 (for example) say something along the lines of “Maureen did not deny climate change. It is National’s stated position that Climate Change is real and must be addressed. But we must recognise that a key part of our strategy must include making our infrastructure resilient to storm events, and addressing the problem of forestry slash. Increase rainfall, in of itself, is something that can be managed with good infrastructure”.
        
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        February 26, 2023 1:01pm
      - Wayne Mapp
        
        Spam,
        If Luxon had made the statement you suggest, the next question he would have been faced with is; “do you believe that climate change is due to humankind activity?”
        Maureen had given answers quite similar to your proposal, which then generated the question about manmade climate change.
        Politicians in major parties cannot duck this question. It is going to be asked and they have to have a reply that deals directly with the question.
        In contrast Seymour is much less likely to be asked that same question, though I suspect he will be now. And he won’t be able to duck it.
        
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        February 26, 2023 1:47pm
      - Spam
        
        If Luxon had made the statement you suggest, the next question he would have been faced with is; “do you believe that climate change is due to humankind activity?”
        Maureen had given answers quite similar to your proposal, which then generated the question about manmade climate change.
        Politicians in major parties cannot duck this question. It is going to be asked and they have to have a reply that deals directly with the question.
        In contrast Seymour is much less likely to be asked that same question, though I suspect he will be now. And he won’t be able to duck it.
        
        And this is the thing with “gotcha” media, not interested in facts but in soundbites.
        He (Luxon) should be able to answer that question – he should be trained to. But he seems to be far more scared of a bad soundbite than actually leading. Despite this, he could answer by reiterating his policy. Or he can actually point to IPCC research that shows that they have low confidence that flooding is a result of climate change and suggest that flood mitigation is a much more valid strategy than taxing hard-working people more so that Tesla drivers can be given discounts. He could even say that it humans have an influence, but it is a moot point as in the short term, policy responses that seek to reduce emissions will have little impact (and will most likely result in increased emissions globally via carbon leakage). Point out that we have an ETS, that, as designed, will reduce emissions automatically, and doesn’t require any further policy interventions such as James Shaw trying to pick winners. That New Zealand needs a wide policy platform that improves infrastructure and makes it more resilient.
        
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        February 26, 2023 5:43pm
      - Wayne Mapp
        
        Spam
        What you are wanting is for Luxon to deny that there is such a thing as mankind caused climate change. Frankly that would be a disaster for National. Around 75 to 80% of the population accept the IPCC view of climate change. If Luxon rejected that, he would guarantee National is in opposition.
        The course you propose only works for Act. They can get up to 15% of votes, almost certainly consisting of those who reject the IPCC perspective. Most of the others of that perspective support parties that won’t even get to 5%.
        I would also note Luxon believes in the existence of anthropogenic climate change. He is going to say that. He also thinks that also is what most New Zealanders believe.
        
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        February 26, 2023 6:16pm
      - Spam
        
        Spam
        What you are wanting is for Luxon to deny that there is such a thing as mankind caused climate change. Frankly that would be a disaster for National. Around 75 to 80% of the population accept the IPCC view of climate change. If Luxon rejected that, he would guarantee National is in opposition.
        The course you propose only works for Act. They can get up to 15% of votes, almost certainly consisting of those who reject the IPCC perspective. Most of the others of that perspective support parties that won’t even get to 5%.
        I would also note Luxon believes in the existence of anthropogenic climate change. He is going to say that. He also thinks that also is what most New Zealanders believe.
        
        Where do you get that (“deny that there is such a thing as mankind cause climate change”) from?
        
        I am suggesting that he can acknowledge that, but move the conversation on to what to do about it, and say that letting the ETS do its job while investing in infrastructure and preventing carbon leakage is a much better solution.
        
        But the point is that what the media (and Shaw) are saying (and using as a beat-up) is not what the IPCC says. Someone needs to call them out on this. It won’t be Luxon.
        
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        February 26, 2023 8:08pm
    - JJ56
      
      I suspect the issue was much more about caucus discipline around his upcoming speech than climate change, per se.
      
      Anyone that follows climate science understand that attribution of extreme events only occurs in climate models so far, and the context of the Tongan volcano remains largely unexplored.
      
      I’d just note in passing that I see these models don’t reproduce something as significant and global as the Holocene climate accurately, so what chance do they have of being reliable on measuring the contribution to the intensity of rare localised events?
      
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      February 26, 2023 9:15am
      - lastmanstanding
        
        IMHO everyone has lost sight of what Pugh actually said at the start. She referred to Shaw not providing answers to the Council to questions they had asked Shaw about climate change. She herself didnt deny climate change. Her statement was then deliberately twisted by the media to cause trouble for the Nats. Luxon should have told the media to go back to what Pugh said. Instead he got sucked in by them. Luxon has bad judgement. He failed Politics 101 never let the media twist and turn statements and get away with it.
        
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        February 26, 2023 9:46am
      - All_on_Red
        
        Here’s a prediction of floods due to the effect the Eruption had on climate patterns.
        Note it was last October…
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDQ-EfqTViM
        “Oct 22, 2022
        The eruption of a volcano in Tonga may mean the east coast of Australia will have a very wet summer, says Meteorologist Rob Sharpe.
        The Hunga Tonga-Hunga Ha’apai volcano erupted in January this year, blasting vast amounts of water into the atmosphere.
        Due to this volcanic eruption and other climate drivers, Mr Sharpe says he’s “expecting this event to go down in the history books as the flooded Summer”.
        
        Pretty accurate. Didn’t NIWA forecast ‘hot and dry’?
        
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        February 26, 2023 9:50am
      - Its only I
        
        Ignore the fat finger report on lastmanstandings good post please mods
        
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        February 26, 2023 10:13am
      - artemisia
        
        My rellies in north Victoria sent pics kayaking in their yard. They have lived on the property for decades, first flood.
        
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        February 26, 2023 10:52am
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      Well that went straight over the top of your head. Did you hear it?
      My bitch is with Luxon censoring free speech and telling people what they must say.
      Remember the great Jaspinda at UN? Free speech is a weapon of war. Google that if you want some word soup waffle.
      My comment was not about ‘climate change’ but was about controlling people.
      
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      February 26, 2023 9:30am
      - Widogast Corwin
        
        The role of a Party Whip is, literally, to control MPs. You are not being realistic.
        
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        February 26, 2023 9:39am
      - Ghost
        
        When asked a question as a mp Steve you represent the party, you give the party line not your own. It’s nothing new, when you work for a businesses you don’t push your competition.
        
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        February 26, 2023 9:46am
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        @Widogast Corwin and Ghost.
        So Maureen Pugh has to tell lies against her will? Because she is an “MP” she has to tell those lies to the public and media? That sounds pretty communist to me.
        
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        February 26, 2023 10:17am
      - Colville
        
        Steve @ 10.17
        
        Pugh needs to STFU until she can put out a soundbite that wont get the party into trouble.
        
        She opened he mouth and created a problem and bad headline for Luxon/The Party because the Media is out to get her. Is she that dumb that she dosent realise that??
        
        All because she couldnt control her tongue.
        
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        February 26, 2023 11:21am
      - Widogast Corwin
        
        Are you actually telling me that up until now, you thought that Party MPs could just express any old opinion in public?
        
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        February 26, 2023 12:57pm
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        @Ghost.
        When working for a business I do things my way, and teach the boss.
        Why? Because I am the one with 50 years experience with the same company!
        That is not pushing the competition – it is outdoing them. 🙂
        
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        February 26, 2023 1:13pm
      - Tom Hunter
        
        You’ll notice that Wayne never gets into back-and-forth debates about anything here. His role is to comment as follows:
        – I have listened to and read the The Establishment Experts.
        – I have sensed the Great Moderate Centre.
        – I and National agree with both.
        – TINA
        For further information of what he thinks of you National voters is this…
        
        “…it is rather tiresome to keeping reading of the dinosaurs revolt.”
        
        Oh, and before any of the Nat True Believers start thumping the drum of how he’s an ex-MP, gone for twelve years now, the news is that he’s apparently the co-chair of National’s External Relations policy group, with all that implies given his attitudes toward China. As the man himself proudly said just a couple of years ago:
        
        You are right. There were (and are) a substantial number of National MP’s who would have similar views to myself.
        
        Every passing day proves that to be true.
        
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        February 26, 2023 1:34pm
    - Nickc2
      
      I’m afraid I can’t go along with that logic Wayne.
      If I vote for Maureen Pugh because she believes the same way as I do with regard to Climate Change, I’m going to be really pissed off when she starts spouting Luxon’s line because it’s caucus think.
      There’s no need to guess who won’t get my vote next time eh?
      
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      February 26, 2023 9:30am
      - Widogast Corwin
        
        That makes no sense. Do you think that National MPs should be able to vote as they wish in Parliament? That is the logical conclusion of your statement.
        
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        February 26, 2023 9:41am
      - Wayne Mapp
        
        Nickc2,
        
        Do you really think that National caucus members can say whatever they like, irrespective of the agreed position of the party?
        
        News for you, they can’t, and have never been able to do so.
        
        Don’t pretend this is an issue of free speech, it is about what you think of climate change. If National happens to have a different position to you, so be it. There are other parties to vote for.
        
        Of course no-one is going to agree on everything that a party has its policy.
        
        But it is clear for a number of commenters here, that climate change has become the decisive issue for them. That they won’t vote for a party unless that party’s position on climate change is basically in accord with their own.
        
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        February 26, 2023 9:48am
      - Bob
        
        won’t get my vote next….. more fool you!
        
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        February 26, 2023 9:52am
      - Nickc2
        
        Wayne Mapp @ 9:48AM
        So I vote National because their group think is anti-Co-Governance but have to accept their spending on that myth called Global Warming?
        I’m afraid I can’t do that.
        
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        February 26, 2023 10:15am
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        That is the point I was trying to get across Nick.
        On the Election Campaign you talk with the candidate and vote for them because you agree to the same views.
        However when your candidate becomes an MP she answers media questions immediately opposite of what you voted for. That is the bit that is wrong.
        
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        February 26, 2023 10:21am
      - Paulus
        
        Remember in Labour you do exactly what you are told – ask Dr Sharma.
        
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        February 26, 2023 1:24pm
      - Tom Hunter
        
        One of the small differences held between Labour and National over the years has been the claim that National MP’s were a little more independent of the Party than Labour MP’s, with the latter living and dying under the iron law of solidarity being everything – rule 42 and all that. At least that’s what I recall of the name, but certainly there are plenty of ex-Labour MP’s who fell foul of it.
        
        By contrast National have always had a reputation for mavericks, starting in my lifetime with Marilyn Waring, whose public views Muldoon tolerated as long as she voted on them such that National did not lose it’s majority, which eventually became the breaking point on nuclear ships and hence, the 1984 election.
        
        But similarly for Derek Quigley and others, who suffered by being booted from Cabinet and getting into angry rows with Muldoon – but who did not face the Labour-type public denigration employed by Luxon.
        
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        February 26, 2023 1:46pm
    - jv
      
      It is not a question of anthropogenic or not or how much, it is man’s arrogance on mitigation rather than adaptation.
      Yes about caucus discipline but that doesn’t require such a public beating.
      
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      February 26, 2023 9:32am
    - Chris Nisbet
      
      Wow, there’s a massive gap between agreeing that humans might be helping in some way to warm the planet a little bit and deciding that we need to attempt the physically impossible and completely wreck western civilisation to try and do something about it (I.e. net zero).
      But, if that really is National’s policy can I implore people NOT TO VOTE FOR THEM.
      
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      February 26, 2023 10:03am
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        Hear hear, what that man said.
        
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        February 26, 2023 10:22am
    - ClanMcleod
      
      Wayne Mapp – never mind what “National accepts”, as with covid, the “science” is NOT settled regarding climate change. “Believing” in it is akin to religion. Nice, but not evidence of anything.
      It is a cult. Luxon and National signing on to it is being part of that cult. Same as they did with the covid circus.
      
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      February 26, 2023 10:05am
      - G the giant from Dunedin
        
        Clan, Climate change has two separate opinions, why do the deniers which I am one of act like the ludicrous greens and suggesting there is only one opinion, life is about opinion when talking about politics, a good government has to govern for all NZers, unlike this Marxist regime who dictate.
        
        For the record, I can see climate has changed, but I am right in Maureen’s camp that it’s nature, not msn or cows farting
        
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        February 26, 2023 10:21am
      - Tom Hunter
        
        What’s the bet that Mapp still believes in the Chinese Lung Rot policies of lockdown and mask mandates even as scientists – MD’s, epidemiologists and others
        – are now stepping forward in public with data trashing them, and once fervant supporters are getting public space in forums like The Atlantic and Time to admit they were wrong and asking for amnesty and forgiveness.
        
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        February 26, 2023 1:49pm
    - Ignoranus
      
      https://yaleclimateconnections.org/2023/02/hurricanes-are-changing-with-the-climate-our-words-about-them-may-need-to-change-too/
      
      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9636401/
      A potential explanation for the global increase in tropical cyclone rapid intensification
      
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      February 26, 2023 10:26am
      - Chris Nisbet
        
        Cripes, the claim is that there’s an increase in the rate of intensification of cyclones, but the study the article points to actually says this…
        
        “However, a robust anthropogenic signal in global intensification trends and the physical drivers of intensification trends have yet to be identified”
        
        Ugh, and then the study sets out to ‘show’ that humans are involved in this intensification by employing the use of a model. Climate models don’t ‘show’ us anything, except that they’re pretty bad at predicting things.
        
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        February 26, 2023 11:56am
      - Don Beckett
        
        That contradicts what the IPCC are saying.
        
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        February 26, 2023 12:01pm
      - All_on_Red
        
        Extreme weather events are declining in Frequency and strength.
        ‘[D]ata for all year 2022 tropical storms shows that global wide, storms were at their lowest strength levels in the last 42 years (since 1981) as shown by the ACE (Accumulated Cyclone Energy reflecting the combined frequency, intensity and duration of all storms) data below from Colorado State University’s Department of Atmospheric Science which tracks NOAA’s National Hurricane Center tropical storm data.’
        https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2023/01/extreme-weather-events-declining.php
        
        Try actual Data not modelling. Or do you think NOAAs National Hurricane Center are ‘climate deniers’?
        
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        February 26, 2023 1:04pm
      - Ignoranus
        
        What does NOAA actually say?
        
        https://www.gfdl.noaa.gov/global-warming-and-hurricanes/
        
        Tropical cyclone intensities globally are projected to increase (medium to high confidence) on average (by 1 to 10% according to model projections for a 2 degree Celsius global warming). This change would imply an even larger percentage increase in the destructive potential per storm, assuming no reduction in storm size. Storm size responses to anthropogenic warming are uncertain.
        The global proportion of tropical cyclones that reach very intense (Category 4 and 5) levels is projected to increase (medium to high confidence) due to anthropogenic warming over the 21st century. There is less confidence in future projections of the global number of Category 4 and 5 storms, since most modeling studies project a decrease (or little change) in the global frequency of all tropical cyclones combined.
        
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        February 26, 2023 10:45pm
      - All_on_Red
        
        Projections- meh
        The Observed data shows it isnt happening.
        
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        February 27, 2023 7:48am
    - Chuck Bird
      
      Wayne, when people join the National Party. They do not expect the leader to be a dictator and a stupid one at that.
      
      You were an MP so you should know the rules. If an electorate has an active electorate the committee chooses the candidate not the party leader.
      
      Do you think Luxon’s interference in the candidate selection in Hamilton West acceptable?
      
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      February 26, 2023 10:42am
      - Wayne Mapp
        
        Luxon expressed a view on diversity of candidates. The local delegates have the actual decision. Presumably they take the Leaders view into account, especially after Tauranga, when choosing their candidate. Though of course they don’t have to and there have been many occasions where they have not done so.
        If I was a caucus member I would understand the ethos of caucus discipline, as my comments here make clear. This was apparent to me before I became a member of the caucus. One of the basic requirements is not to embarrass the Party. Pretty obvious I would have thought. Any half way sensible MP would know that the questions that Maureen got were likely to have dangerous traps. Part of the expected skill set of MP’s is to avoid stepping on obvious mines. Maureen has been an MP for several years. She should know the traps likely to be set by the media. Instead she walked straight into them. And in doing so, became to story, which forced the Leader (and many of her colleagues) to have to deal with it.
        As you know National has a clear position on climate change, one that would be well known to Maureen. It is her duty not to contradict it.
        Voters are not under that constraint. They can believe whatever they want and vote accordingly.
        You have made your view clear. You don’t believe in anthropogenic climate change, and won’t vote for a party that does so. A viewpoint that is apparently shared by many who regularly comment on kiwiblog.
        
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        February 26, 2023 12:10pm
    - Taieri
      
      last years vote for net zero by 2050
      ———————–
      
      The Net Zero has already been achieved.
      The Net Zero Thinking that is.
      
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      February 26, 2023 12:23pm
    - Chuck Bird
      
      “You don’t believe in You don’t believe in anthropogenic climate change”
      
      Where have I said that?
      
      I expect a leader of the National Party to not claim that the cyclone was caused by anthropogenic climate change.
      
      It seems to be a religion to him.
      
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      February 26, 2023 1:26pm
    - cmm
      
      What happened to the argument that:
      * National party is a “broad church”.
      * National party stands for freedom.
      
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      February 26, 2023 2:29pm
      - Matt Long
        
        A regressive take over of the party.
        National is now the Borg.
        
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        February 26, 2023 4:48pm
  - Widogast Corwin
    
    “Hey Luxon, we live in a fucking Democracy OK? You can not tell others how to think!”
    
    On this occasion I agree with Wayne Mapp. MPs have freedom of speech in the caucus room. They have never had freedom of speech in public.
    
    Let’s say a National MP stated publicly that a separate Maori health system was a good idea. Would you be telling Luxon not to censure free speech?
    
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    February 26, 2023 9:09am
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      It is the “control” that pisses me off. I have never in my life let someone to control me in this manor. It is plain wrong.
      
      11 9
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      February 26, 2023 9:34am
      - Widogast Corwin
        
        Well you would make a very poor National MP 😂 The role of the Party Whip is literally to control MPs.
        
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        February 26, 2023 9:43am
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        @Widogast Corwin.
        I have no interest in becoming a National MPI do have an interest in the candidate I vote for actually represents ME, not the opposite of what was campaigned on.
        
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        February 26, 2023 10:27am
      - Matt Long
        
        1, Luzon rebuked Pugh for a mischievous mischaracterisation of what she said. A leader would say “I’ll investigate what she actually said and then deal with the MP in question once I know the facts.” Idiots who make kneejerk reactions when they don’t know the facts are a cancer in any organisation. Luxon is the media’s cuck.
        2. Luxon in his “Climate Change caused this cyclone therefore any stupid reaction is justified” speech deliberately shut down public discourse by disparaging both so call Climate Deniers and moderates.
        
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        February 26, 2023 11:06am
      - ClanMcleod
        
        Nikki Kaye opposed mining on Coromandel and Great Barrier Island and from memory, crossed the floor when it came to a vote on the matter.
        I am not “into” the detail of how politics works, has something changed so that MPs are not allowed to hold alternative views to the party?
        If so, it sounds Orwellian.
        Maybe I’m too idealistic, but I find it implausible that every member of a political party can actually agree on every topic therefore compelling them to pretend they do is bizarre.
        
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        February 26, 2023 11:30am
      - Prince
        
        Have you ever been an MP ?
        I don’t think you are suited to the role.
        
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        February 26, 2023 11:47am
    - G the giant from Dunedin
      
      There will be Nat MPs that agree with Māori health system, isn’t it funny with some on the right they only think their opinion is correct
      
      1 2
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      February 26, 2023 10:23am
      - ClanMcleod
        
        But Luxon isn’t permitting “opinion”. He’s denying Pugh an opinion and forcing her to “believe” something.
        
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        February 26, 2023 11:33am
- Bob
  
  Since the advent of MMP, National have had to go into some form of coalition/support in order to govern. The result is that necessary legislative changes have had to be watered down; thus the changes are not so economically, environmentally or socially effective.
  
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  February 26, 2023 9:42am
  - G the giant from Dunedin
    
    Yes, and that same rotten MMP is what forces the the Nats to straddle the centre, they have too, remember ACT was set up to chase the right, and people on here say not true, but i clearly remember when ACT was set up, ACT to take the right, Nats yo go after the centre
    
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    February 26, 2023 10:16am
    - Mike
      
      When established, ACT pretended to be neither left nor right, and claimed it would soon be the largest single party. Since accepting it has little chance of that happening, it has veered around a bit, chasing pockets of voters. Similar to Peter Dunne shopping around for interest groups, but a bit more successful and a bit less obvious.
      
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      February 26, 2023 11:39am
  - artemisia
    
    National and ACT in government will be more conservative. Not less.
    
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    February 26, 2023 10:21am
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      That is what I would like, with a lot of Act MP seats in the House, enough to make National think instead of bullying.
      
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      February 26, 2023 10:29am
- artemisia
  
  Does anyone think National and ACT are not talking turkey? Of course they are.
  
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  February 26, 2023 9:45am
- G the giant from Dunedin
  
  Same in California, another left wing shit hole
  
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  February 26, 2023 10:09am
- G the giant from Dunedin
  
  What’s Seymour’s experience? He turned down portfolios twice, snd he was even asked by journalists if he wants finance, he said I don’t even know if I will take a portfolio, what does that mean? Is he just going to sit in his seat again and complain?
  
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  February 26, 2023 10:12am
  - Mike
    
    ACT is still scarred by their last experiences as minieters.
    
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    February 26, 2023 12:01pm
  - artemisia
    
    Interesting to see what ACT does in a coalition government. Their MPs are still building experience and after the 2023 election could be in a position to significantly influence government policy without being distracted by the big ask of ministerial responsibilities. Maybe baby steps.
    
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    February 26, 2023 3:11pm
- Paulus
  
  I still thnk that Seymour is a light weight as why has he no real strength followers supporting him ?
  His nice number two is good but !
  He will dilute any National votes and allow Labour/Greens/Maori back in.
  
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  February 26, 2023 10:29am
I remember when

Liz Gunn and cameraman reportedly arrested after a melee at Auckland Airport.
The article starts out by saying she is a former TV host and conspiracy theorist.
Attempting to interview/film family who had been kept in lockdown in the Tokelaus for refusing the covid vaccine.
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February 26, 2023 8:21am
Surely Knott

NZ takes another political prisoner. Don’t ask about the Unvaxxed Tokelau family that was put under house arrest for nearly a year for not taking the Pfizer if you want to maintain your social credit score.

The media also gets stuck in labelling the person a conspiracy theorist in the headline but without actually declaring what the conspiracy is. That makes it harder to rebut or debate the claim or label. You just are a conspiracy theorist.
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February 26, 2023 8:29am
- G the giant from Dunedin
  
  Note this rotten regime has still been delivering more jabs, (another one this week) but notice the government rhetoric has stopped, how come they no longer force the jabs on us, everyone I know has state no more jabs, I did what I thought was the right thing to do, took the first two jabs, got mild covid, and flicked the finger at this regime after to their boosters
  
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  February 26, 2023 10:28am
  - ClanMcleod
    
    Because to stop the vaccine regime they would be admitting that they do sweet fuck all to help anyone and that opens the door to questions regarding vaccine damage and death. They can’t open this up to debate, though eventually it will happen, with or without them.
    Notice how quiet all the former “experts” have been? That’s no coincidence.
    
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    February 27, 2023 7:36am
- ClanMcleod
  
  Astonishing (not really) that the media focus is on the “conspiracy theorist” Liz Gunn, and nothing of relevance about the fact that a family were imprisoned in their own home for refusing to be injected with an experimental medical concoction.
  
  I’m still waiting for one of the presstitutes who run these stories to explain what “conspiracy theories” they are talking about. Strangely none of them want to go into any detail. Also noted, this article has no author name attached, though they do quote the insipid Damien Venuto.
  
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  February 27, 2023 8:12am
peterwn

So the Opposition is calling for an inquiry concerning Cook Strait ferry services. I am not too sure what an inquiry would achieve with regard to existing ships and services except letting off political steam. Interestingly the Kaitaki is still operating freight only following engine failure (cooling system issues) late January. Seems Kiwirail and the authorities are still concerned that the Kaitaki remains vulnerable. Reading between the lines it seems that there are cross dependencies between the four engines that cannot be readily sorted. If this cannot be economically sorted the freight operation could become permanent.
What the enquiry should be looking at is the resiliance against technical issues for the two new ferries being built. Kiwirail has been ably to specify how the new ships should be designed unlike having to take what is given when leasing or purchasing second hand ferries. The diesel electric battery configuration is a good start (it is well proven since the submarines such as USS Bowfin has used such technology for many years. It is important however that services such as cooling, lubrication, heavy electrical layout and control systems are kept apart to avoid interdependence which can lead to simultaneous engine failure such as occurred on the Kaitaki. This would be a good time to further review design before too much is set in stone.
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February 26, 2023 8:36am
- Simon
  
  As baby boomers retire all that knowledge and experience is lost. Baby boomers maintain infrastructure and can’t be replaced with imported labour from Indian and Phillipines like National clown show think. ( it’s well beyond Labo to understand how complex a economy is)
  
  Without knowing any specific about the ferry would guess there just isn’t the employee knowledge base to operate efficiently. This will become more widespread in the coming years.
  
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  February 26, 2023 9:50am
  - Ghost
    
    Oh you’re back to posting your racist rubbish again.
    
    As for baby boomers, na, they have passed their knowledge on in the apprentices they have trained up, in the young employees they have worked with and you can see that every day with these people working hard and showing they know the job they are doing.
    
    As for your racism towards Indians and Phillipines you remind me of a stupid old woman at the doctors one day. Sitting there a foreign doctor came out to get a patient, she leaned over to her husband and said “aren’t you glad she didn’t call your name”. She’s no longer registered at that clinic, got the boot. Lovely doctor that doesn’t need people with your sort of racism. Thank goodness for these people who are coming in and filling up the shortages in the country, just a shame people like you don’t bugger off overseas.
    
    Oh btw, last time I was at the ED it had an American doctor, a British doctor, Indian nurses. The orthopaedic surgeons are from South Africa and Dubai. Thank goodness we can still get good people to move and work here.
    
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    February 26, 2023 10:05am
- Bob
  
  Remember who sold NZ Rail and its services; thereby confining the service to economic mediocrity!
  
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  February 26, 2023 9:56am
- Ghost
  
  Here is a good article worth reading. Seems they ran perfectly fine under labour came into power, lol
  
  https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/484857/biggest-pothole-on-sh1-calls-for-inquiry-into-cook-strait-ferry-failures
  
  Parliamentary questions from August show that 93 percent of Interislander ferries were on time in the 2018 financial year, but this was down to 68 percent in 2022.
  
  Meanwhile, 99 percent of Interislander ferries ran in 2018 versus 79 percent in the last financial year.
  
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  February 26, 2023 9:58am
- Paulus
  
  Living in Tauranga I see every day large vessels going in an out, and around the world, all the time every day and night, and we cannot get simple ferries to work ?
  
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  February 26, 2023 10:32am
  - Nickc2
    
    We buy/lease bargain basement crap. The ferries we get are past their life of type as with their engineers IMO.
    
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    February 26, 2023 11:36am
- nathie
  
  The current Cook Strait ferry debacle also reinforces how disconnected the Labour Party are to the issues faced by everyday NZ’ers (at the micro level eg their needs and plans) and the interconnections of industry and commerce (at the macro level eg from moving freight and food to the wider ramifications to industry and commerce when there are delays and the flow on effect).
  
  Where is the sense of urgency from Labour to have this issue sorted? Where is their “initiative”?
  
  According to the RNZ/Stuff article the value of the freight alone is $18b/year – that’s $49m/day!!
  
  Why hasn’t Labour called in the Air Force to assist by using it’s C-130 Hercules to airlift at least some of the cars/passengers and small good trucks (like the National Govt did in the 1970’s/80’s)? I’ve heard reports on radio/talkback that some cars are stranded for up to one month!
  
  What about Navy sealift vessel HMNZS Canterbury (in between resupplyng the cyclone hit East Coast)? It won’t be needed there all the time. That vessel can carry everything eg from heavy trucks to cars (just not rail freight – but that could be prioritised for the remaining commercial ferry operators). It can also carry passengers. Put it in for a few days to assist with clearing the backlog!
  
  Like I say where is the “initiative” from Labour? Is this what happens when Labour has become a party of ex-student politicians and the so called “professional managerial class”? They become disconnected from everyday issues?
  
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  February 26, 2023 11:23am
  - Taieri
    
    That vessel can carry everything eg from heavy trucks to cars (just not rail freight – but that could be prioritised for the remaining commercial ferry operators). It can also carry passengers. Put it in for a few days to assist with clearing the backlog!
    —————————–
    
    Apart from everything else, there’s a small matter of liability. HMNZS Canterbury is not certificated to carry passengers and commercial cargo. Ergo, it can’t be substituted for a commercial ferry.
    
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    February 26, 2023 2:13pm
    - nathie
      
      Thnx. Can it be certified? (Not suggesting it should, just wondering what the process is and whether it is worth it etc).
      
      Seems to be ok to use it in a natural disaster to evacuate civilians eg Kaikoura earthquake. But presumably non-CD use means overwhelming H&S compliance?
      
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      February 26, 2023 3:39pm
      - Taieri
        
        Doubt it. Naval vessels, even logistics vessels such as Canterbury are not designed for routine transport of passengers and vehicles. HMNZS Canterbury, despite her size is quite limited in the number of vehicles she can load. The set up is completely different, because it serves different purpose. Also the skill set required for regular ferry service is completely different from that on the naval vessel.
        In the past many merchant ships carried passengers. Anything up to 12 passengers was classed as cargo ship. anything above that number was classed as passenger ship. The rules for the latter were more stringent and class requirements far more extensive.
        Also, not sure how it works with naval vessels regarding cargo insurance, but even if there’s some form of insutance I doubt very much that civilian vehicles would be covered.
        
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        February 26, 2023 8:24pm
- Taieri
  
  Interestingly the Kaitaki is still operating freight only following engine failure (cooling system issues) late January
  —————-
  
  There’s no engine failure. Engines were shut down by their safety system when flexible expansion joint in the central cooling system failed. This is what the safety system is for – to protects the engines. My question is: why a single point failure results in the total loss of power on a passenger ship? A 25 year old, twin screw passenger ship at that. Has nobody noticed this design failure in all these years? Doesn’t say much about the professionalism of the people concerned.
  
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  February 26, 2023 2:02pm
- Taieri
  
  The diesel electric battery configuration is a good start (it is well proven since the submarines such as USS Bowfin has used such technology for many years.
  —————–
  
  The weight of the batteries required to power a vessel of the size of Kaitaki would preclude it from carrying any cargo. Not mentioning a small matter of charging such batteries of course. 23 MW of installed power on the Kaitaki is not your average Nissan Leaf…
  
  Submarines are fitted with electric propulsion for entirely different reason. This reason is called Noise.
  
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  February 26, 2023 2:09pm
  - peterwn
    
    But the two new ferries being built are diesel electric battery configuration. Admittedly the design battery capacity is limited (insufficient for a crossing on batteries only) but still enables a minimum pollution operating environment. As I understand it, batteries will be charged as much as possible from shore power and engines will be shut down in the Sounds. When the engines are run, they will be at a speed and power output for optimum efficiency (unlike usual ship engine operation).
    
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    February 26, 2023 9:36pm
Maggie Pie

My partner has a saying….”Follow the money honey”

Anybody else find this a wee bit concerning?

https://newsroom.co.nz/donations-create-conflict-issue-for-nashs-forestry-portfolio
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February 26, 2023 8:41am
- Tarquin North
  
  Where is this Aotearoa place they keep mentioning?
  
  26 2
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  February 26, 2023 8:56am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Must be somewhere near Ahitereiria
    
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    February 26, 2023 9:40am
  - pdm
    
    It is mythical Tarquin.
    
    Even Pete Wolfkamp betrayed evidence of taking the koolaid this morning by calling New Zealand that mythical name.
    
    Indoctrination is rife.
    
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    February 26, 2023 9:40am
    - Maggie Pie
      
      Even worse, he still has that dutch clown Rude Kleinplaster on his show 🙁
      
      12 1
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      February 26, 2023 10:40am
  - peterwn
    
    When CRL is up and running in central Auckland it will miss out on some patronage because potential passengers will find it difficult to relate to strange station names and where they want to go.
    
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    February 26, 2023 1:42pm
- Chuck Bird
  
  Thanks for pointing this out. I must forward this to some in the media. It sounds currupt to me.
  
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  February 26, 2023 10:46am
- peterwn
  
  Be careful with this sort of claim. It could give Labour a chance to introduce Government funding of political parties so there is no need to build membership, to shake down members for money or hold cake stalls.
  
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  February 26, 2023 1:38pm
Scooter

Very interesting interview with David Seymour. From what interviews I can see from overseas he is the most articulate, common sense based politician NZ has. Although the way Sean Plunkett interrupts his guests is starting to put me off.
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February 26, 2023 8:44am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  David Seymour has politically matured over the years.
  A no nonsense man now.
  
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  February 26, 2023 9:41am
  - G the giant from Dunedin
    
    But thanks to him turning down portfolios he still has no experience
    
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    February 26, 2023 10:32am
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      Experience comes with diving in at the deep end. Maybe Seymour needs just that?
      There are enough on the Act Party to support him.
      
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      February 26, 2023 1:17pm
    - Matt Long
      
      Versus the ministerial experience of Luxon, Willis and Bishop? Even Shane Reti, the first able member on their list,
      appears to have no ministerial experience. Number 5, Goldsmith before we find any.
      
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      February 26, 2023 5:01pm
    - Chris Nisbet
      
      I would rather have Seymour with zero experience than all that experience of the current lot governing over us.
      
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      February 26, 2023 5:07pm
G152

A lot of that ‘slash’ is from trees doing what trees do.
Blowing over, limbs breaking off, riding slips into rivers and just dying.
The amount pictured on the news looks like weve had a forestry industry for the last few hundred years
Check discoloured bark free timber and sawn ends
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February 26, 2023 8:49am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Here is an idea. Turn it into wood pellets for fuel. There is talk of stopping the Indonesian coal burning at Huntly. Converting it to wood. There is the opportunity, burn our own wood.
  But no, we will import wood pellets from Canada.
  There is something not right with the thinking in NZ. Are there drugs in the water or something?
  
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  February 26, 2023 9:47am
  - Bob
    
    the thinking in NZ……
    What thinking! not seen too much of it amongst the electors in the last 20 years
    
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    February 26, 2023 9:58am
  - Paulus
    
    Costs money to convert to pelletts.
    
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    February 26, 2023 10:34am
    - Colville
      
      Branches are very low density and mostly bark and needles. That isnt going to work for pellets.
      
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      February 26, 2023 11:30am
    - Flossie
      
      Surely it costs money to import coal from Indonesia?
      
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      February 26, 2023 11:59am
- MCōs
  
  ‘Slash’ by definition is the residue left over from harvesting trees.
  
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  February 26, 2023 1:31pm
BeaB

I’d love David Seymour to be deputy PM with real clout in the cabinet but I know vote splitting will inevitably lead to Labour getting in again. They have Green and Māori Party support sewn up as well as a solid tribal vote.
It’s National voters who seem to do all the dithering and demands for perfection.
What I’d like is to be able to give National two ticks so that I know I have done all I can with my vote to stop Labour but for there to be a pre-election agreement that ensures ACT a strong voice.
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February 26, 2023 8:54am
- pdm
  
  Beab – I get the impression Seymour is not interested in the Deputy PM role.
  
  I am open to being proved wrong though because as you say it would be a good thing.
  
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  February 26, 2023 9:43am
  - MCōs
    
    As I recall he turned down a cabinet position in a Key administration.
    Maybe collective responsibility is an issue with him/ACT.
    
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    February 26, 2023 10:32am
    - thirteenstars
      
      And that might be just the case, and it would be refreshing.
      
      I can see Seymour not wanting to be a stooge for National, and that’s a powerful operating position to be in.
      
      National’s got three options for coalition: ACT alone, ACT Greens to play them off against each other, and Greens alone.
      
      The Nats loathe ACT with a passion. The Nats are now a centre-left party and fully committed to the anti-growth policies of Net Zero, Paris, and the forced downsizing of NZ’s agricultural sector to achieve it.
      
      Those two things taken together make ACT Greens a real possibility. Luxon is a Teal and the Nats are a Teal party. For those unaware, the Teals are like political mahi-tahi: an ideological common-ground, grand alliance type of bridge between the Nat’s Blue-Green faction (now dominant) and the Greens proper.
      
      And you can bet that if ACT were to say, no way are we getting played off against the Greens, National will go with the Greens alone.
      
      Then maybe a few of the Nat stalwarts will finally realise what their party has become and what years of my team, right or wrong has brought us to.
      
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      February 26, 2023 11:50am
      - Steve Todd
        
        National’s got three options for coalition: ACT alone, ACT Greens to play them off against each other, and Greens alone.
        
        Well! You’ve turned out to be another commenter who simply won’t be told: https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2023/02/general_debate_18_february_2023.html/comment-page-1#comment-3323120.
        
        National has, in fact, just one option for coalition – ACT. As I said last Saturday, the Greens will not go with National (even if, together, they have 61+ seats). And they certainly won’t form a majority coalition with National and ACT (who, together have < 61 seats).
        
        Nor will the Greens give National and ACT (with < 61 seats) confidence and supply. Why would they, when they could form a majority coalition with Labour (and perhaps the Māori Party)?
        
        To summarise: in my view, if National and ACT, together, do not have 61+ seats (assuming no Māori Party overhang), there will be no change of government.
        
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        February 26, 2023 12:59pm
      - thirteenstars
        
        No, I won’t be told, not with reasoning like this:
        
        “In my humble, if it did, the Greens would be ejected from Parliament in 2026, including both Chlöe Swarbrick and Tamatha Paul losing their Auckland Central and Wellington Central seats, respectively.”
        
        Green voters will vote Green. Their support is consistent and their constituency has nowhere else to go, and if they did, they’d have gone there. And come 2026 when Labour takes over from the National caretaker government, the Greens and Labour will fall back into each other’s arms, never missing a beat.
        
        The point of a Nat-Green coalition is not that National wants to seriously discuss if cows have human rights, or that the Greens want to discuss building new six-lane highways, it’s the notion that under Luxon and the influence of the dominant Blue-Greens there is solid common ground with the Greens which would a) allow the Greens to advance the ball and show how grown-up they are, and b) for National to get confidence and supply while giving the Greens wins they are now committed to, anyway.
        
        And to show ACT who’s boss.
        
        Is it likely? No. Is it possible? Sure, and just a few years ago I’d have scoffed at the idea.
        
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        February 26, 2023 1:15pm
      - Steve Todd
        
        There is no doubt that if the Greens were to go with National, the party would disintegrate (both inside and outside parliament). End of.
        
        The party wouldn’t dare signal its willingness to enter into coalition with National during the election campaign, so it could only happen by betraying its supporters after the election.
        
        Your speculation might seem logical to you, but it ignores the reality of the Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand (as it is currently constituted). The only Green MP who could even contemplate a coalition with National is James Shaw.
        
        Were it to happen, the party organisation and membership would collapse, the MPs would eventually split – the way NZ First MPs did in 1998 –and those of its supporters who are left-wing rather than primarily conservationist, would abandon the party in 2026.
        
        Who knows how it would all play out – what new party, or parties, might arise from the ashes – but make no mistake, within short order, the Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand would no longer exist.
        
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        February 26, 2023 3:00pm
    - C-Town
      
      I think it had something to do with him wanting to push some bills through (either charter schools and/or Euthanasia) but he wouldn’t be able to do so as a member of Cabinet, especially as he was the party’s sole MP and couldn’t pass them on to someone else.
      
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      February 26, 2023 1:41pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  It will not be vote splitting if enough drop National altogether and do two votes Act.
  That sure would make National pull their pants up.
  
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  February 26, 2023 9:49am
  - BeaB
    
    That’s not going to happen so dream on.
    
    4 3
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    February 26, 2023 10:00am
  - lifesgood
    
    Now where have I heard that before and look what happened.
    
    4 0
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    February 26, 2023 10:06am
    - James Stephenson
      
      Do people still not understand how MMP works? All that really matters is your party vote and on that score, Nat + ACT is the important number. I want as much influence as possible for ACT so that’s where my PV will go.
      
      The problem last time around was idiot National supporters (looking at you, Farming community) voting Labour “to keep the Greens out”.
      
      If you’re a traditional Nat supporter and unhappy about the direction of the party, I’d suggest joining your local branch and getting involved.
      
      17 2
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      February 26, 2023 10:22am
      - Matt Long
        
        Exactly WHY are people talking about vote splitting for? Are they serious?
        If so, look up MMP on the interweb thingy and try to work out how it works.
        First Past the Post finished nearly 30 years ago.
        Vote ACT if you want a centre right coalition government, National if you want centre left and the fruitcakes if you want left or far left.
        
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        February 26, 2023 11:24am
      - Matt Long
        
        Vote splitting other than; Party Vote your favorite Party, Electorate Vote your National candidate that is.
        There no way under MMP this advantages Labour Greens, if people can’t comprehend this, get help.
        
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        February 26, 2023 11:33am
  - Captain Mainwaring
    
    All that two votes Act will achieve is Act taking enough electoral votes off National to let Labour take the seats. Is that what we want?
    
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    February 26, 2023 10:22am
    - Matt Long
      
      Under MMP your electorate vote means almost nothing.
      1. Party Vote the Party you want in power.
      2. Electorate vote the candidate that can win and is least egregious.
      
      10 1
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      February 26, 2023 11:28am
      - Colville
        
        I disagree re: electorate vote.
        
        Having your party of choice win LOTS of electorates is a bonus as they get local offices and staff for them along with the visibility that goes with that.
        
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        February 26, 2023 11:32am
      - Steve Todd
        
        @Colville @ 11:32AM
        
        Except that ACT has no chance of winning any electorate other than Epsom.
        
        To be quite clear: Electorate votes for ACT candidates, other than David Seymour, are wasted votes. And, as Captain Mainwaring says, could let Labour candidates win electorates they would not otherwise have won.
        
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        February 26, 2023 1:19pm
    - Dougal10
      
      It may null and void the labour list mp’s if they win electorate seats which may fill their total allocation of seats
      
      4 0
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      February 26, 2023 12:47pm
- G the giant from Dunedin
  
  He probably will have the opportunity to be dep pm, but will he take it, he has said he might not even take a ministry
  
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  February 26, 2023 10:33am
  - Bob
    
    opportunity to be dep pm……
    NOT sure that Seymour has the maturity to take responsibility, thus not keen on Portfolios; at least he has integrity in this matter: unlike the deadwood holding Portfolios in the present governement, no experience and no integrity morality.
    
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    February 26, 2023 11:31am
    - Hollyfield
      
      I thought in the past he had turned down the opportunity to be a minister as he wanted to focus on working with and building the new MPs in his party. I think this is a sensible decision considering the number of newbies. Now that the MPs have some experience in Parliament he may think differently. I would like to hope so anyway.
      
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      February 26, 2023 1:58pm
Swifty

400 immigration applications from the one Manurewa temple for religious workers:

https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/131234840/rajvinder-singh-had-a-unique-defence-ive-fallen-under-the-spell-of-a-godlike-figure

My Indian flattie says there’ll be money changing hands all the way along the immigration process and as evidenced by promises of permanent residency etc.

It’s immigration fraud on an industrial scale.

It’s an organised criminal racket.
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February 26, 2023 9:04am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Organised criminal racket. They must have been studying the Democrats.
  
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  February 26, 2023 10:39am
Bridgenag

An academic’s handy and short summary, sources included, concerning the mRNA jabs’ clinical trials and the increasing evidence of harm, for COVID Skeptics to share with their jab-endorsing loved ones, as well as randoms and bots they’re debating with on social media. No conspiracy theories. No wild speculations. No rants. Just a huge dollop of science, with a sprinkling of logic, and a dash of unintentional humour.
Useless – Clinical trials
Expectation of harm – Logic
Evidence of harm – Negative efficacy
Evidence of harm – Excess non-COVID deaths

https://open.substack.com/pub/metatron/p/science-summary-covid-jabs-initially?r=1aj1bv&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web
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February 26, 2023 9:08am
Maggie Pie

Donald Trump Jr retweets…..

What are these guys on?
Imagine if the races were reversed in this vid 🙁

https://twitter.com/EndWokeness/status/1629222747929714690

(Over 4.2 million views in one day! )
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February 26, 2023 10:00am
- Ghost
  
  “You’re white, and you know this happening then you are a killer too”
  
  Ok, let’s talk about black gang violence in the USA, black on black crime. Black on black police abuse. Want to own that before you point the finger at white people.
  
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  February 26, 2023 10:14am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  The Democrats have programmed them well.
  They will never leave the ‘plantation’
  
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  February 26, 2023 10:43am
MCōs

The National Party has come up with an alternate policy to Labour re water infrastructure.
As far as I can ascertain they intend to leave control with the people who control it now with some more regulations re fresh water.
I’ve often wondered why the water that is used to flush the toilet, wash clothes, wash dishes, water the garden, clean the car(s), must be potable?
Many towns/cities are finding out their storm water systems are well below par and at any moment a whole bunch of new locations may find the same thing.
Roads are hammered by flooding. Most roads/streets are streets are the responsibility of the local body.
Under the National Party policy who will be lumbered with the loans. The ratepayers or the taxpayers?
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February 26, 2023 10:12am
- Paulus
  
  Otherwise if the Maori control the 3 Waters they will decide who pays and not them.
  
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  February 26, 2023 10:36am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Willie Jackson said ‘once we control the water, we control the people.
    There is a Coup happening right under our noses. We won’t find out until it is too late.
    
    21 4
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    February 26, 2023 10:46am
- Colville
  
  MCos.
  Re: non potable water
  Biggest issue is you need to run two separate pipe systems in the walls of your house.
  People do do it if they have a bore etc but generally just for watering the garden/washing the boat .
  Flushing the loo etc uses a very small amount of water, its all used by the shower.
  
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  February 26, 2023 11:40am
  - Frank Hematuria
    
    “Rainwater harvesting” is common in some places, one I have personal experience of is Brisbane. Near impossible to retrofit I imagine, but new builds can be plumbed and wired to collect rainwater in an outdoor tank and pump it to outlets such as external taps and internal non-potable outlets (eg toilets). In my experience it works well until the pump fails or there is a drought.
    
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    February 26, 2023 12:23pm
greybeard

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/131336317/dog-alerts-eskdale-family-to-crisis-from-petrol-generator
Dear God some people are thick: running a petrol-powered generator for hours inside.
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February 26, 2023 10:15am
- sirknz
  
  “rEneWaBlEs WoUlD HaVe PrEvEnTeD tHiS!”
  
  – A Climate Change Devotee
  
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  February 26, 2023 10:18am
- kevn
  
  @grey… Reading the story it seems they/author, is blaming the ‘gas/petrol’ rather than the exhaust fumes.
  Surprising they got caught out. Most rural folk are very savvy with machinery.
  
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  February 26, 2023 10:40am
- nathie
  
  Wonder if they didn’t want to leave it outside so gangsters could hear it running and steal it???
  
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  February 26, 2023 11:35am
- Matt Long
  
  Ignorant, lucky we can learn about all the new genders in school rather than carbon monoxide poisoning now.
  
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  February 26, 2023 11:45am
sirknz

State Highway 1 is closed as are a bunch of other roads effectively cutting off Northland from the rest of the country by road.

Whacka Coathanger: Let’s close the Auckland Harbour Bridge overnight for new seal and not prioritise the clearing and repairing of the storm damaged roads.

Well done team, well done…
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February 26, 2023 10:16am
- Ghost
  
  Road crews are up there working on the roads, they’ve opened some already after slips, doesn’t seem like they are short staffed
  
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  February 26, 2023 10:21am
Maggie Pie

HERE’S A THORT…..

Why not just boycott this years Census altogether, and let ‘2023 Census-Aotearoa-NZ’ answer ALL of questions for you ?

https://twitter.com/SelinaStreet100/status/1628165291397218304
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February 26, 2023 10:35am
- Ghost
  
  Feed the questions into ChatGPT and get it to answer your Census for you?
  
  9 0
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  February 26, 2023 10:44am
- kevn
  
  @Maggie… Strangely enough I had a visit from a Data Collection Specialist from Stats NZ recently. I was asked to complete a form (he let me fill my wifes in) it was like a census format. I declined initially, but it was made clear that the request was compulsory.
  Seems odd to have double up data with the census pending.
  I did manage to get a business card from to confirm his bona fide.
  
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  February 26, 2023 10:47am
  - Maggie Pie
    
    Well sorry kev….but more fool you.
    Can’t believe you’d even answer the door to a strangler 🙁
    
    Unless someone knows our gate-code and the correct sequence of raps on the brass knocker, they could stand there for a f**ing week 😎
    
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    February 26, 2023 10:59am
    - Maggie Pie
      
      …’stranger’
      
      10 0
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      February 26, 2023 11:00am
      - H. Upmann
        
        It read much better in the first edition Maggie.
        
        12 0
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        February 26, 2023 12:52pm
    - kevn
      
      @Maggie… Indeed, I understand Akld is not the sunny provinces. However, he did present his card and was ID labelled. Checking later, I learnt he was an ex ChCh real estate agent recently semi retired to our sunny locality. Where your local NW owners have a bach.
      
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      February 26, 2023 11:09am
      - Maggie Pie
        
        Have you met Adrian?
        
        7 1
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        February 26, 2023 11:14am
- mogg
  
  Just tell them that you are suffering from early onset
  dementia, it works for everything even jury service.
  
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  February 26, 2023 11:03am
Ghost

Two good news bits in the one article

The number of uncontactable people following Cyclone Gabrielle in the Eastern District is down to eight, police have confirmed.

Police said in the 24 hours to 7pm on Saturday, 24 people have been arrested for a variety of offences – 14 in Hawke’s Bay and 10 in Tairawhiti.

The offences include burglary, car theft, serious assault and disorder.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2023/02/number-of-missing-people-after-cyclone-gabrielle-down-to-8-24-arrests-in-24-hours.html
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February 26, 2023 10:53am
- greybeard
  
  They will be arrested, charged, bailed and go on to repeat.
  
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  February 26, 2023 12:21pm
Chuck Bird

I hear that forestry in is a 6 billion dollar industry.

Does anyone know if part of that 6 billion is from carbon credits?
9 2
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February 26, 2023 10:54am
- Colville
  
  NZ exports circa $4Bil of wood so assuming we use 1/3 of each tree domestically** ($2bil) the $6Bil would have zero carbon value in it.
  
  I believe we tend to export a lot of pruned (very high value) and industrial (low value) and use the saw logs (medium value) … this is a gross generalization tho.
  
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  February 26, 2023 11:50am
Steve Otto(North Shore)

From my Facebook last year.

3 Waters simply explained
I was explaining it to someone today in very simple terms:
• You have an asset that you and your family has spent decades paying for
• You pay a small fee each year to pay for the upkeep of the asset to be able to use it
• Someone comes and tells you that they will buy your asset for 10% of its value but you will still be able to use it
• They tell you that they will pay you in 3 years the 10% value of the asset
• They then tell you they are going to borrow the funds to pay you in 3 years but you are going to have to pay them for the loan, the interest and the team of people they will put in place to manage the asset because you are going to use it. So in short you are paying for your asset twice
• They also point out that they are going to have to charge you 10x the amount you paid each year for the upkeep of your asset
• They are going to give away half of the asset to someone else who has the ability to change the outcome to suit their own agenda which inevitably is going to cost you more money…….
And they tell us this is a really good idea and totally for your benefit……
Your Government in action working for that team of 5 million…unless you do the math and work out that its only the 15% proportional part of our population that will end up financially controlling the asset that you have already paid for… you will pay again and again and again
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February 26, 2023 11:19am
- Mike
  
  You have to imagine that you accept the liabilities as well as owning the assets.
  
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  February 26, 2023 12:05pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  It is unfortunate that I can not relay the blog comment from Stopcogovernance.
  The site crashed or was infiltrated or something, I don’t know.
  It is up and running, but no daily post. All posts back to the end of Jan are gone.
  It is still worth going over daily topics back to August.
  I suspect this was done to shut the site down. Who would do that? Not hard to figure out who and why. Too much of the ongoing Coup was being exposed.
  Not over yet, the road tour is still happening I think.
  
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  February 26, 2023 12:46pm
  - Mike
    
    ‘infiltrated’?
    LOL
    
    4 14
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    February 26, 2023 12:48pm
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      Idiot. By infiltrated I mean ‘hacked’ Hacked to destroy the whole webpage.
      
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      February 26, 2023 1:21pm
- Nickc2
  
  If this happened in the US of A, the bastards stealing the asset would be shot eh?
  It won’t happen in NZ though because the bastards stealing the asset have all the guns.
  
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  February 26, 2023 1:19pm
kevn

@SteveO… and they were/are planning to use the entire 3 Waters jack-up as collateral to borrow many billions.
There is an almost 100% captive market who must have the commodity. Very secure for the lender.
Just a rat trap for the end user customers.
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February 26, 2023 11:27am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  It is bigger than the public can imagine.
  Democracy will be gone and what is left will be run by the Elite Maori Tribal Tyranny.
  I will probably die before it happens. It is a long slow process so as not to scare the horses. It really is happening. If only the Media would start ask questions about this. Willie Jackson, Nanaia Mahuta, Tuku Morgan. The hierarchy, the ones who gather all of the money. The Maori boy on the street will never see or benefit from any ‘settlements’
  
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  February 26, 2023 1:28pm
Maggie Pie

Anyone else seen all the pics circulating of the police manhandling Liz Gunn at the airport?

She’s quite a slight girl….couldn’t see her being much of a physical threat 🙁

Doubt they’d be quite so brave if it was a patched mongie.
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February 26, 2023 11:32am
- Mike
  
  Take no chnces with crazies? Lucky she wasn’t pepper sprayed.
  
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  February 26, 2023 12:03pm
- Pineapple Lumps
  
  Hi Maggie, haven’t seen of those but would be keen to if you can post a link. The footage from the people who picked up her camera and then had it taken off them by police, didn’t show any argy bargy. Might be because I’m not on Twitter?
  
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  February 26, 2023 7:11pm
kevn

@Maggie… Just following orders.
“Make it uncomfortable, why can’t she just keep to the narrative?”.
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February 26, 2023 11:37am
- Maggie Pie
  
  And have you noticed kev how stories like this really bring out the Misogynists?
  
  We’re all well aware of course there are a few odd b*stards out there who have never been with a woman in their sad lonely lives 🙁
  
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  February 26, 2023 1:48pm
Maggy Wassilieff

Just in case folks haven’t read of the 1938 floods that struck Eskdale Valley.
https://www.nzgeo.com/stories/inundated/
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February 26, 2023 11:44am
- Bob
  
  The explanation in he first few paragraphs of this narrative , a very simple and accurate explanation; is so simple that even the NZ media and James SHaw should be able to understand it.
  This weather phenomena was taught to us in Primary school, standard six during the 1945-55 era.
  Pity the science syllabus from that period has become lost in the education archives.
  
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  February 26, 2023 4:28pm
Chris Nisbet

NZ gets a mention in the latest Climate Discussion Nexus video (about glaciers)…

https://youtu.be/wC_T8l-6KfQ

Spoiler – Claims that Himalayan glaciers were retreating faster than anywhere else were porky pies.
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February 26, 2023 12:39pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  I still go back to the glacier I have seen. Exit Glacier in Seward, Alaska.
  Marker pegs showing where the glacier face was every 10 years or so. But then it stops.
  What is not told is the Glacier went all the way down to the ocean Resurrection Bay, some 12 miles away. The Glacier has been receding since hundreds of years before the Industrial Revolution.
  Some dick decided to built trains and cars, and spoilt everything by heating the planet up.//
  
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  February 26, 2023 12:56pm
  - Dougal10
    
    The Mackenzie basin and southern lakes are all remains of glaciers. NZ would have been a bloody cold place to live if they hadn’t disappeared.
    
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    February 26, 2023 1:47pm
    - NZer In Exile
      
      Glaciers decline and extend through the centuries.
      
      Once again, nothing unprecedented about those glaciers that were retreating recently.
      
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      February 26, 2023 7:19pm
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        Alaska has way over 300,000 glaciers, most un-named. Exit glacier is in Seward on the Kenai Peninsula. Up above Exit the Harding Icefield feeds a lot of glaciers, no idea how many. The Harding Icefield huge and will never melt.
        We are being fed a line of bullshit.
        
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        February 27, 2023 8:56am
I remember when

So do I understand the problem correctly?
Originally Maori burned large areas of bush, which no doubt caused some erosion and slit in the rivers.
They were replaced by farmers who have cleared native bush and scrub, which produced massive slips and tonnes more slit.
To overcome the problem they planted pine trees, among others, to reduce the erosion and silt.
The forestry owners harvested the forests which has resulted in massive areas of erosion and silt.
It is 100% the forestry owners fault.
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February 26, 2023 1:16pm
- Chris Nisbet
  
  Sounds like it might be about right until the end.
  ‘Climate Change’ dunnit.
  
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  February 26, 2023 2:05pm
Paulus

Did I not hear on RNZ this morning a lady Property Lawyer state that the flood plains of New Zealand have been increased by Global Warming !
Evidence – you must be joking !
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February 26, 2023 1:21pm
Ghost

When your slash has caused so much destruction what do you do? Ask for money

Daniel Williams was outside the Lawson Fields Theatre in Gisborne, waiting to hear finance minister Grant Robertson and his regional development counterpart Kiri Allan outline a support package for the region’s businesses.

Williams, a land manager for Ngāti Porou, said in regards to forestry, “The industry will need a lot of financial help.”

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300816200/cyclone-gabrielle-live-updates-number-of-uncontactable-people-drops-further
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February 26, 2023 1:32pm
Maggie Pie

Thort this was something worth sharing with the fam on a Sunday.

“Put a tbsp of top quality Extra-Virgin-Olive-Oil in your coffee next time you make one and OMG….heaven in a mug!”

I like my coffee really sweet so I use Condensed Milk to sweeten mine. Simply add the EVOO and stir it in. Creamy nutty wonderfulness! And unlike adding butter to your coffee, there’s no ‘oily after- taste’. In fact you would hardly even know it’s in there!
Plus you get all the health-benefits from Olive Oil as well. Increased energy. Beautiful smooth skin. Thicker lustrous hair. Clear eyes. The list goes on.
The only real downside I noticed, it can act as a mild laxative.
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February 26, 2023 1:36pm
- greybeard
  
  Oh, crap !
  I knew there was a catch.
  
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  February 26, 2023 3:50pm
Swifty

Might as well give up now because in 20 years NZ will be ‘on fire’:

https://i.stuff.co.nz/life-style/sunday-magazine/131299099/what-will-nz-look-like-when-todays-18yearolds-are-middleaged
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February 26, 2023 1:54pm
- emmess
  
  I can’t get through more than a couple of sentences of that crap
  
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  February 26, 2023 5:29pm
- NZer In Exile
  
  Wow. Baseless fear porn. Do they not give a crap about the mental health of the youth who read this unmitigated drivel?
  
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  February 26, 2023 7:13pm
Maggie Pie

What a pack of f**ing WET-WIPES these Sydney cops are!

Should have gone in really hard with the ‘Liz Gunn’ response 😎

https://twitter.com/australian/status/1629596682408296448
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February 26, 2023 4:07pm
- NZer In Exile
  
  Thorpe should regularly be drug tested.
  
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  February 26, 2023 7:15pm
Ra Henare

And now for something positive re China/NZ

China-led Pacific Ocean dive reveals deep-sea secrets in Kermadec Trench
Fascinating marine animals spotted by Chinese and New Zealand researchers thousands of metres below the surface

cmp.com/news/china/science/article/3211481/china-led-pacific-ocean-dive-reveals-never-seen-secrets-deep-down-kermadec-trench
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February 26, 2023 4:26pm
Maggie Pie

TRENDING

Wasn’t going to post this….but after a cuple of wines I thort fuk it 😀

https://twitter.com/PatriotNz2022/status/1629394732244959232
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February 26, 2023 5:29pm
Swifty

Stuff displays their hypocrisy and double-standards once again.

They are happy to publish anti-white hate, to laud those who write poems about ‘driving round in cars looking for white New Zealanders to knife’, to routinely overlook and fail to publish other instances in NZ and overseas of anti-white hatred and violence – but will happily posture and preen about Scott Adams who has said nothing approaching the foul racist deeds of some brown New Zealanders:

https://i.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/300816756/media-drop-dilbert-after-creators-black-hate-group-remark

I went on Twitter yesterday following a link from KB and had a look around some Maori-separatist-types to see what they are posting.

Anger. Hate. Bigotry. ‘Othering’. Racial stereotyping galore. It just went on and on. Real sick stuff that wouldn’t get posted on KB in a million years.

Why aren’t you reporting on that Stuff? Let’s see some of your ‘hard-hitting journalism’ about that.

But you won’t will you? Because you’re a bunch of cowards. Piss weak. Cowards without principle.
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February 26, 2023 5:31pm
Chris Nisbet

What is it with politicians?
– They put words in your mouth.
– They answer questions you didn’t ask.
– They seem unable to give a simple answer to a simple question.
– They tell you they’ve answered a question when they haven’t.
– They are often very good at talking right over the top of another speaker.
– They have a talent for making the most illogical of logical leaps.

Do they get special tuition to learn these ‘skills’?
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February 26, 2023 6:48pm
slightlyrighty

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2023/02/two-men-arrested-after-police-car-allegedly-shot-at-in-wairoa.html

Andrew Coster could not be reached for comment….
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February 26, 2023 7:44pm

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