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August 26, 2023 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 26 August 2023

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General Debate

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Souvlaki

Another good article from Amy Brooke in the Spectator.
Why is National so silent on co-governance…..is Luxon actually trying to shed support to NZ 1st you’d have to ask?
https://www.spectator.com.au/2023/08/the-hubris-of-identity-politics/
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August 26, 2023 8:04am
- pdm
  
  Souv – I think Luxon wants too much to be `Mr Nice Guy’. He does not seem to have the courage to confront the really hard issues.
  
  It will be to New Zealands detriment if he continues on that track if we have a National/ACT Government.
  
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  August 26, 2023 8:15am
  - Tricati
    
    So True – I’m forming the opinion Luxon is another corporate soft-cock, with all the clichés and buzz words, but side steps the really tough issues rather than offend someone.
    There has been so many opportunities to skewer Labour over the co-governance direction, especially the Mana o te Wai Statements having precedent over all New Zealanders, and private property rights; this by a small elite that beg to represent @16% of NZ population – Bloody madness.
    
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    August 26, 2023 8:26am
    - David Garrett
      
      Tricati: Luxon is another corporate soft-cock, with all the clichés and buzz words,
      
      Yep, that pretty much mirrors my view. But hey, he got many more gays working for Air NZ so that’s a considerable achievement (sarc.)
      
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      August 26, 2023 9:51am
      - Piniwi
        
        Right DG but not just queers filling the ranks of Air NZ. My recently completed trip booked on Singapore Air from Philippines was fine between Cebu to Singapore but the rest of the journey was downgraded as the carrier was Air NZ for Singapore to Auckland and the final leg Auckland to Nelson. The absence of blue eyes in the cabin crew help me understand where all those natives that used to end up working for NZ Railways are now employed by Air NZ. A little test offered to one aisle sized member of asking her what was the aircraft we were on she hesitated and the said 767-
        8. I said the only reason for the question was the fellow passenger next to me had a different aircraft safety card. Funniest part of it was seeing how much the natives have got so much contamination of Air NZ with the mythical flying waka or fwaka as it must be known as.
        
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        August 26, 2023 4:19pm
    - Paulus
      
      How do you know Maori are 16%.
      Both the recent and 2018 Census were bereft of so called Maori numbers, and this time was believed to be hypothetically a 78% return (nett of KFC).
      Who then makes up the so called number of 16% ?
      
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      August 26, 2023 1:39pm
  - CJames
    
    He (or his advisers) seem to be terrified that National will say or do anything that the media can use it to attack them. This has neutered them, making it look like on many issues, they are just a more competent Labour party. There is no vision and nothing that could be perceived as mildly controversial.
    And they wonder why their popularity is in the doldrums? Get out of Wellington.
    
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    August 26, 2023 8:32am
    - Dougal10
      
      Our current nz media are only hanging on to dear life with labour party funding. I guess national know that everything including the kitchen sink will get thrown at them to keep the gravy train flowing.
      
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      August 26, 2023 8:37am
      - septic skeptic
        
        But so what? This won’t change much no matter what Nat say or do, and trust in the MS
        
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        August 26, 2023 11:28am
    - Che Guava
      
      Democracy is rule by media. Public opinion is always dictated from the top-down and is shaped by control of the media apparatus. Most people generally believe whatever they are told is the case, perceive what is important and what is not important on the say so of interested parties, and hold the values they are told they should hold.
      
      As we’ve seen demonstrated over the last decade or so, when speech actually became free with the advent and ubiquity of the internet, so-called democracies quickly abandoned their theoretical commitment to free speech, because free speech is anathema to the current system that people tell us is “democracy.”
      
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      August 26, 2023 8:57am
    - Romney
      
      It’s more than perception. A less incompetent version of Labour is what they really are. They are not even denying it.
      
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      August 26, 2023 9:02am
      - G the giant from Dunedin
        
        Why, they have ruled out all co governance in all services, why do they have to bring it up every day snd sound like whiners? I do not remember Seymour mentioning co governance either come to think of it
        
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        August 26, 2023 12:37pm
    - David Garrett
      
      Cjames: “A more competent Labour Party” is what the Nat’s have been for years.
      
      I remember Rodney Hide telling me that at one of his regular meetings with Key, Key said: “We’re not much interested in policy Rodney; we just look after driving the ship more efficiently”
      
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      August 26, 2023 9:53am
      - Pope Punctilious II
        
        Look at the Nats current front bench – all liberals except for Shane Reti. That’s clear from their voting records and the recent pronouncements of Willis et al.
        
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        August 26, 2023 10:57am
      - Michael Sommerville
        
        And that, my dear friends, is why you have to vote ACT if you want real change.
        
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        August 26, 2023 11:19am
  - Nukuleka
    
    I’d suggest that Luxon is only too aware that the msm are waiting with boots at the ready to kick him brutally if he goes beyond his clearly stated belief in equal suffrage and the democratic principal of one person one vote. The last thing National needs is a media beat-up about race. Luxon may indeed have allowed NZ First to garner some support at National’s expense over the co-governance issue but National is progressing nicely upwards in the polls and that is what matters at present. Steady as she goes and don’t scare the horses. ACT will put the backbone into National once the election is in the bag.
    
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    August 26, 2023 8:34am
    - Paulus
      
      The so called media are sharpening their keyboards already to condemn the incoming National/Act Government.
      They think they are clever but are detrimental to New Zealand in most aspects.
      Nearly all of the so called Leaders are women who totally supported Ardern and would still do if she hadn’t run away.
      Recent poll indicated 52% of women over 50 years of age still support Labour.
      
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      August 26, 2023 8:40am
      - Close Hen Counters
        
        That is so depressing – could they be women who don’t have to work, hubby brings in good coin, shopping costs are not an issue, have told their kids to marry for money not love so breeding trophy children who will contribute fuck all to society … these women only have to worry about getting to Pilates on time, do I look better then other mothers in my lulu lemon, hope Andre cleans the infinity pool today … in my full time fucking horrible job that pays the mortgage and helps fund my sons, all the women I work with over the age of fifty are not voting labour
        
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        August 26, 2023 11:53am
      - G the giant from Dunedin
        
        I think that is bullshit, it’s older woman I hear blasting labour harder than men, that poll was sometime ago, and in fact I thought I heard the woman vote had moved strongly away from women
        
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        August 26, 2023 12:41pm
      - NZer In Exile
        
        I’m guessing the young middle and upper class mostly. They know very little but have massively inflated egos these days. They will have to go through the full degradation of totalitarian socialism in order to get a reality check. The way things are heading, by then it will probably be too late to escape it.
        
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        August 26, 2023 1:40pm
      - mawm
        
        Hen – I live around these women, the ones with big SUV’s dropping their children off at the private schools. They have heard of the proposed wealth tax, etc. and are probably the most vulnerable to it with their overpriced homes and expensive lifestyles, and they do not want a Labour/Greens/ Maori government. They might breed trophy children but they know the importance of money to maintain their status. They will not be voting for anyone but ACT/National.
        
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        August 26, 2023 2:13pm
      - Observer of Life
        
        And some women will vote ACT/National because they can see how the country continues to go down the gurgler with this useless mob in charge. Some drive SUV’s for a reason other than little Sebastian and Porsche needing a ride to Kings or St Kent’s.
        
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        August 26, 2023 3:21pm
      - cmm
        
        What they say is part of their image – as fake as their make up.
        It probably doesn’t gel with what they do.
        
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        August 26, 2023 4:06pm
    - Scott
      
      Nukuleka – I agree with your analysis. I suspect that the presence of Act will put some much-needed backbone into National on the issue of co-governance.
      
      For myself I’d like to see the removal of all race-based legislation and services. I would like to see us reaffirm one person, one vote. I would like to see health services based on need and not race. I would like to see all councils and all of our government elected on the basis of democracy and not racial preferences.
      
      One people, one nation, one rule of law for all. Is that too much to ask?
      
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      August 26, 2023 8:42am
      - jon
        
        Scott, so well said. All reasonable and sensible.
        .
        
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        August 26, 2023 9:48am
      - Flossie
        
        Isn’t that already what Luxon has said?
        
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        August 26, 2023 10:25am
      - PeeJay
        
        what sort of idiot could possibly downtick that?
        
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        August 26, 2023 10:34am
      - cmm
        
        Flossy, no I don’t think that is what he said.
        We cannot have one law for all while there are special cultural loopholes etc.
        
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        August 26, 2023 12:28pm
      - G the giant from Dunedin
        
        Act have not mentioned co governance either, Nats policy states there will be no co governance in services, end of story I would have thought
        
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        August 26, 2023 12:42pm
      - Paulus
        
        Bring back Telethon time when New Zealand was collectively together, and not as now totally divided in a great number of ways.
        
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        August 26, 2023 1:43pm
    - artemisia
      
      Agree 100% Nukuleka. A NACT government is a very different creature from a NAT government.
      
      National did make changes to interest free student loans back in the day, presumably recognising that an election policy completely abandoning free money for a big section of the voting population was not a bright plan. The changes were IIRC to do with age limits and a wider definition of family income.
      
      Could easily do similar, especially with a necessary ACT partner.
      
      First catch your hare.
      
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      August 26, 2023 8:49am
      - G the giant from Dunedin
        
        Free fees is a readable for Nats with act I am sure, why would they decide now otherwise?
        
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        August 26, 2023 12:44pm
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Be nice, be kind, I remember that from about 6 years ago. Different ball game now. Luxon needs to grab the bull by the horns and show he means business.
    
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    August 26, 2023 8:36am
    - NothingLeft
      
      He really doesn’t. He has to take votes of Labour in the centre, so has to be super careful not to say or do anything that turns off air-headed mildly left leaning or generally oblivious/ignorant men and women
      
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      August 26, 2023 8:40am
      - Pope Punctilious II
        
        OK, the problem you’ve identified is the widespread acceptance among the younger half of the electorate of “progressive” ideas like DEI. That’s largely down to progressive control of our education system, which goes some way back, was exacerbated during the Key years, and went into overdrive under Ardern and Hipkins. If the Nats are serious about a long-term improvement in the country’s fortunes, they need to clean progressive ideology out of our education system. But they show little interest in doing so, at least partly because influential people like Willis and Stanford are themselves products of said education system.
        
        If you vote for your local Nats candidate, and also give your party vote to the Nats, you are voting for a more competent government to manage the status quo in this country, with a few tweaks to policy. Is that what you want?
        
        If on the other hand, you want to turn this country’s fortunes around, vote for your local Nats candidate, but party vote ACT or NZF.
        
        This election is crucial. It might be our last chance to keep this country in the First World. National being able to rule alone would represent an opportunity lost.
        
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        August 26, 2023 11:10am
      - cmm
        
        No he does not need to take votes. It is more about turn out.
        What will sway things is ensuring his whole voter base turn out and Hipkins failing to get his to turn out.
        One way for Luxon to do that us to grow a spine and motivate people to follow him.
        Nobody is inspired by a jellyfish.
        
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        August 26, 2023 12:33pm
      - septic skeptic
        
        Pope, that’s a good post except for two little words. or NZF. I don’t get that. Winston and Shane will sell to the highest bidder and the likely result is another slush fund and jobs for the boys in whatever government pays best.
        
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        August 26, 2023 1:12pm
      - NothingLeft
        
        Agree. Defund all humanities depts in Universities – it costs NZ way too much both in the immediate bills and the long term impacts from turning weak minded and impressionable adolescents into useless marxist fuckwits intent on destroying civilisation. Any subjects with the word “Studies” in its title is garbage.
        
        Similarly halt all taxpayer funding of media, the other home of far left in NZ. And end all special treatment for unions, particularly in public service.
        
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        August 26, 2023 1:13pm
    - G the giant from Dunedin
      
      He is gaining one out of every 4 votes Labour loses, he has to be careful not to scare them back to the bitter and twisted Hipkins
      
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      August 26, 2023 12:46pm
      - mawm
        
        But he’s bleeding votes to ACT, Winston and to those who will not show up to vote. Center left is where he lies politically. I will not vote for that.
        
        ACT on the other hand failed the first time they had to stand up for their libertarian principles by not defending individual sovereignty and bodily autonomy during Ardern’s attack on our freedoms.
        
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        August 26, 2023 2:26pm
  - Gravelroad
    
    At the moment, Mr Luxon is just an opposition MP – and the leader of a team of likewise opposition MP’s.
    Look at what happened in 2017 – Labour, before the election, in total disarray. No policy, no leadership, no ideas, no influence. Just take a punt, change the leader to a “fresh young female face” and hope for the best.
    Then that duplicitous old codger Peters chooses the pretty young face as the Prime Minister and here we are, many all ready to vote for him again.
    National is trying to win from a place of concerted and determined negative electioneering from a significant range of vested interests.
    I don’t blame Luxon for being cautious.
    
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    August 26, 2023 8:51am
    - Swifty
      
      Agreed.
      
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      August 26, 2023 8:53am
    - Taieri
      
      I don’t blame Luxon for being cautious.
      ———-
      
      The question is: is it just a pre-election tactics? Or perhaps, an intrinsic feature of his approach to politics and life in general? Methinks, the latter…you don’t get very far in a corporation by upsetting the cart, let alone by calling the spade a spade.
      
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      August 26, 2023 10:01am
      - G the giant from Dunedin
        
        Well he has already stated one person one vote, and no co governance in services, but here people are on here falling for media bullshit
        
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        August 26, 2023 12:48pm
      - septic skeptic
        
        G. Yup. no co-governance “IN SERVICES”. Always a qualifier. I’m deeply suspicious.
        
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        August 26, 2023 1:14pm
      - Observer of Life
        
        G: But as you continually point out “ and no co governance in services”. The operative words being “in services”. So he’s ok in other areas, like National Parks. And we ALL know how that’s turned out in the Urewera’s!
        
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        August 26, 2023 3:31pm
  - Simon
    
    “Souv – I think Luxon wants too much to be `Mr Nice Guy’. He does not seem to have the courage to confront the really hard issues.”
    
    Wrong. National are just another leftiod social welfare party. The only difference between Labo and National is when Labo promises a baby unicorn for ever household National goes can Labo manage unicorns? Let’s make it a baby rabbit for household instead
    
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    August 26, 2023 8:55am
  - Jack5
    
    After PDM touched on National’s “nice guy” it’s apropos to ask whether anyone-else caught the fragment in the media that Jim Bolger appeared in the public gallery during the Parliamentary farewell speech by Todd Muller?
    
    Does that say anything about who was behind the mutiny against Simon Bridges?
    
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    August 26, 2023 9:25am
    - Matt Long
      
      I doubt Bolger holds much influence in National, I would say he attended because Muller used to work in his office.
      
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      August 26, 2023 10:23am
- Colville
  
  Luxon playing it safe.
  What he is doing is working so why would he change the message?
  
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  August 26, 2023 8:20am
  - cmm
    
    Sure he might win the election, but if he keeps playing it like Labour then what’s the point? May as well just leave Hipkins and Robbo in charge.
    
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    August 26, 2023 12:35pm
    - G the giant from Dunedin
      
      That’s rubbish, do you need reminded of how much labour policy will be gone?
      
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      August 26, 2023 12:49pm
    - Colville
      
      I actually don’t have problem with National moving a bit further left… They do that and ACT take up the void to the fight.
      That way Labour has no ground to occupy.
      End result is National rules and Labour is gone.
      Yes maybe 50% of labours policy would still be in play… But the reality harmful fringe stuff would be gone.
      
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      August 26, 2023 4:32pm
- Philview
  
  Another article urging a vote for NZ First. Chris Luxon had the fortitude to do a speech I think at Waitangi saying National would reverse Co-Governance in service delivery such as 3 Waters. If National back tracks they will be stuffed next time.
  
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  August 26, 2023 8:26am
  - G the giant from Dunedin
    
    He has said it more than just once
    
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    August 26, 2023 12:50pm
    - leoj
      
      So, why is he against a referendum on the principles of the treaty.
      
      Clearly, he has fooled you but not us.
      
      Luxon is a maori sympathiser.
      
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      August 26, 2023 8:11pm
- Dudley Quaffquaff
  
  When oh when will we finally grasp that there is a difference between what politicians have to (a) say before an election and (b) do after it, if they are to be successful in both time periods?
  
  Luxon needs to hang on to the squishy centre if he is to win. As such, he cannot afford to let the media, who are salivating for the opportunity, to claim that he’s RACIST. If there are people who won’t vote for anybody who isn’t explicit in opposition to co-governance, Seymour’s there for that. Luxon’s best bet is to continue to not be Labour and let Chippy carry on doing all the work for him.
  
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  August 26, 2023 8:30am
  - Close Hen Counters
    
    Well said! Love your pseudonym … I snorted 💙
    
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    August 26, 2023 11:59am
    - Observer of Life
      
      Ditto .. great name Dudley!! 😆
      
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      August 26, 2023 3:32pm
  - G the giant from Dunedin
    
    And when was the last time Seymour mentioned co governance?
    
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    August 26, 2023 12:52pm
    - Graeme Hall
      
      Attend one of his meetings. He talks about stopping it. It is the number 1 issue among his supporters.
      
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      August 26, 2023 6:10pm
  - NZer In Exile
    
    So once again it’s a total lucky dip. Prospective winners are slaves to the narratives of juvenile idiots in the media and wackodemia until they get in, then they do as they wish regardless of the woke-wooing blather they spouted before the elections.
    
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    August 26, 2023 1:28pm
    - G the giant from Dunedin
      
      [Mod – Tone your posts down, stop the aggression towards others. I will not be approving any of your posts that are aggressive and rude to other members]
      
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      August 26, 2023 8:10pm
      - NZer In Exile
        
        Looks like G spat his coffee all over the screen😂
        
        You were saying G?
        
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        August 26, 2023 10:13pm
  - Paulus
    
    But are women in the squishy centre as they do not like Luxon – not sure why – is it because he has been successful in life, and he is bald ?
    
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    August 26, 2023 1:48pm
    - NZer In Exile
      
      Because he looks like the average middle aged male? It kind of seems like women have been programmed to believe men are inferior idiots since roughly the 1980s.
      
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      August 26, 2023 10:11pm
- oldpark
  
  Mitigation for All Blacks .Not too many teams can play for 40 minutes against Boks superior dominance .that is total minutes that ABS PLAYED .
  
  Remember they must be short of refs. The clown who did that game last did a so called Premier game in 2021. Go figure .
  
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  August 26, 2023 8:40am
  - oldpark
    
    Less we forgot or just deliberately over looked it .
    Abs World Cup Team v South Africa .They
    Only had 15 men playing for 20 minutes . rest was either 13 or 14 men for other 60 minutes.
    Admitted some of Abs were short of a gallop or were asleep at the wheel .Must try harder .
    
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    August 26, 2023 9:36am
  - In Vino Veritas
    
    There is no mitigation for that shite oldpark. Our scrum was a joke. Not helped by having pretenders in Vaai and Lord involved, plus our best (and only world class) prop not selected. Whatever the plan that the coach came up with, it was shown to be hopeless. Every world cup for the last 20 years has shown that defence wins matches. We leak tries like a colander (they’d be better letting the players organise the defence than let McLeod anywhere near it). The result had nothing to do with the ref and everything to do with our game plan and inability to break down the South African defence. Imo Jordan is our best fullback and gets to play wing. Imo Lienert-Brown is our best 2nd 5, and gets to not start. Imo Ioane is an OK wing who would not be guaranteed a start who is a very, very average centre (speed is great for a centre, but a little above average skills and limited game vision = being in wrong position). The list goes on.
    
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    August 26, 2023 10:16am
    - Opie
      
      Remember all those world cups you won with outside backs playing in the midfield…
      
      Maybe it will work this time as you have a wing and a fullback at centre and 2nd five.
      
      Great coaching and excellent captaincy from cane as always. Not.
      
      People forget that sa didn’t play their first team earlier in the year and the abs ran around them.
      
      The gig is up. A real good chance of losing to France in pool play and not getting past the 1/4’s. Again.
      
      This is nothing less than what they deserve after letting a guy that dragged his partner down the road by her hair continue to play for them and getting his charges dropped.
      
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      August 26, 2023 11:32am
  - pdm
    
    OP – you are tough on the ref.
    
    Now the TMO may be a different story because he was Mr Interferer in a lot of cases. More so than the referee.
    
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    August 26, 2023 10:28am
    - In Vino Veritas
      
      pdm, what we saw wasn’t an issue with the ref or TMO. It was a strategy and selection issue. And if Scott Barrett gets a holiday for a few games, and we have to rely on either of Vaai or Lord, our scrum will be minced by France. We just better hope that Retallick and Whitelock are fit and don’t get hurt.
      
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      August 26, 2023 1:02pm
  - virtualmark
    
    It’s clear that, despite the four great performances earlier this year, Ian Foster still hasn’t forgotten how to roll out a team who have no plan and no motivation on the day.
    
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    August 26, 2023 2:42pm
- Notsofast
  
  An outstanding article, current New Zealand politicians are gutless craven bottom dwellers.
  
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  August 26, 2023 9:20am
- Cassandra
  
  Except for the plug for NZ First at the end. Amy conveniently overlooks the fact that B……. Peters caused all this rapihi in the first place, and that ACT has been promoting equality for years.
  
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  August 26, 2023 9:48am
- JJ56
  
  The elites are hard at it in the form of Terrence Arnold and Sian Elias’ “Report of the Expert Working Group on Managed Retreat” https://environment.govt.nz/what-government-is-doing/areas-of-work/climate-change/adapting-to-climate-change/national-adaptation-plan/.
  
  A climate crises impacting on land is a gift. Leads to co-governance, a recommended Maori name (‘te hekenga rauora’), and Maori owned land having a status beyond our national planning laws.
  
  I’m betting they think the Nats won’t be able to wind that back.
  
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  August 26, 2023 10:00am
- Tony Stuart
  
  This is the opening paragraph of National’s Local Water Done Well policy:
  
  Local water done well
  In too many places in New Zealand, the drinking water, wastewater and stormwater systems are failing, causing pollution, wastage and massive bills for ratepayers. Labour has pushed through Parliament its undemocratic and unpopular Three Waters policy which is an asset grab that would take water services off the local communities who own them, and transfer them to four mega-entities that have mandatory co-governance. It’s the wrong answer and no-one wants it.
  
  https://www.national.org.nz/local_water_done_well
  
  And in the policy papers that sit behind Local Water Done Well, National is even more explicit:
  
  Co-governance
  Labour has allocated half the seats on the mega-entity boards to councils and allocated the other half directly to iwi. Mandating co-governance over a public service in this way is antagonistic, undemocratic and needlessly divisive.
  Iwi have rights and interests in water. But it does not follow that the way to give effect to those rights and interests is to confiscate council assets and transfer them to four unaccountable, co-governed mega-entities without giving the local communities who paid for them any say in the matter.
  Water is essential to all New Zealanders. What matters is that Kiwis get the services they need and have a voice in how decisions that affect them are made. These are community assets and local communities should determine how they are governed.
  
  Luxon has been saying repeatedly since early last year that National does not support the co-governance of public services. He reiterated just last week that all Three Waters legislation will be repealed by Christmas, and replaced by legislation that is currently being drafted. That legislation will have no co-governance provisions. What else do people want/expect from him?
  
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  August 26, 2023 10:35am
  - NoFax
    
    What are these “rights and interests” that Iwi have that are different to my rights and interests in water?
    
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    August 26, 2023 11:06am
    - NZer In Exile
      
      Special woo factors apparently.
      
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      August 26, 2023 2:58pm
  - Observer of Life
    
    TS: I want absolutely NO Co-governance on anything, anywhere, anytime. THAT is not promised by Luxon. More shared care of National Parks anyone?? More problematic Urewera Nat Park anyone??
    
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    August 26, 2023 11:07am
    - Paulus
      
      Bay of Plenty Western Bays Council have just done what was voted heavily against at last time, and allowed Maori members on the Council of right.
      New stupid Mayor behind it.
      
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      August 26, 2023 1:53pm
    - G the giant from Dunedin
      
      It doesn’t matter, the giving the Waikato river a human identity is what Luxon is talking about, the Iwi payouts left the urewera was not co governance, it was the payout to Iwi, it’s far different than co governance lije thus rotten regime want to foist on us
      
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      August 26, 2023 8:15pm
  - kowtow
    
    From the Nat Water done well ;
    
    ‘National will adopt the recommendation from Communities 4 Local Democracy (C4LD),’
    
    From C4LD ;
    
    ‘We’re Communities 4 meaningful Mana Whenua representation.
    The Government’s proposal is a poor solution for Mana Whenua, offering the same watered down representation that councils are being offered. We want to build on existing local relationships with Mana Whenua to offer real and meaningful partnership.’
    
    Either someone’s not done their homework or someone’s lying to the electorate .
    
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    August 26, 2023 12:29pm
    - septic skeptic
      
      Or someone has done their homework, is fully on board with special mana whenua rights and interests and hopes to pull the wool over the right wing voters eyes until he becomes PM.
      
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      August 26, 2023 1:21pm
    - PeeJay
      
      glad someone else has read the detail. Don’t believe the usual Nat cheerleaders on this – actually go and read the documents on this – it is literally Labour lite managed better.
      
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      August 26, 2023 1:22pm
  - G the giant from Dunedin
    
    Just shows how bloody stupid people on here are, why roils he parrot this every week or time he opens his mouth
    
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    August 26, 2023 12:54pm
    - septic skeptic
      
      G, I reckon in 18 months time you will be secretly disappointed but probably still praising Luxon’s pragmatic approach to race based rights and looking forward to the second term of the same.
      
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      August 26, 2023 1:23pm
    - Observer of Life
      
      It’s all in the wording G… no Co-governance “in services”. Read it and weep!
      
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      August 26, 2023 3:36pm
  - PeeJay
    
    This is a bit disingenuous – a growing criticism of National is that they are effectively Labour lite – they take Labour policy but manage it better. What National are proposing sounds different but is it really? Well, I decided to take a good look at this – both the summary and the full policy document and can see quite a few fishhooks and more than enough wriggle room to allow co-governance but under a different guise.
    
    Don’t believe me? Take the water regulator Taumata Arowai – National still support the new Water Quality Regulator (Taumata Arowai)….but will amend the governing legislation to focus on water quality only. Sounds a bit like tinkering to me? As the spiritual claptrap water statements (Te Mana o te Wai) is a key part of the regulator, will that be gone too? Or will that just be managed better?
    
    How about co-governance. Sounds great. Gone. Or is it? Nationals approach is that it returns control to local councils. Sounds good. The summary point goes further and states that “Ratepayers determine the governance of their water services”. So, overlooking the fact that ratepayers have next to zero control and aren’t the only ones that vote (remember – this quote is is from their own policy summary), and ignoring the fact that councils seldom do what the voters actually want, isn’t this just a massive sidestep? I mean, it’s not like any Council in NZ have actively tried to subvert democracy and install Maori co-governance without any democratic accountability…..I mean other than Auckland, ECAN, Rotorua…..I know National have very little interest in local government but really? This is the solution? Well, we are against co-governance but the council wanted it, and the councils always do what the ratepayers want, so really the locals wanted a form of co-governance so there you go.
    
    So in summary, no co-governance. Unless you look at the details. Then there might be.
    
    Sounds like a further example of National taking a Labour policy and making it work.
    
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    August 26, 2023 1:20pm
    - kiwikidsnz
      
      “Nationals approach is that it returns control to local councils. Sounds good.”
      
      Yeah, nah.
      
      https://akhaveyoursay.aucklandcouncil.govt.nz/maori-seats
      
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      August 26, 2023 1:39pm
      - Paulus
        
        Many local Councils are now heavily directed towards Maori aspirations and now have unelected places – Tauranga has had for over four years a four person Commissioners appointed by Mahuta and what a mess Tauranga now is – it is a dead gross selection of a number of building sites aimed at looking after Maori wishes and the 1000 plus Council staff.
        
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        August 26, 2023 1:58pm
    - NeverMindTheBollocks
      
      Taumata Arowai picked up the water quality checking role from MoH Public Health. They test water supply for quality.
      
      I’m happy that TA retain this role.
      
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      August 26, 2023 5:38pm
    - G the giant from Dunedin
      
      Then stick with a labour government, you have two choices
      
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      August 26, 2023 8:23pm
- Grumpy Silver Haired Female
  
  The woke left are too ready to destroy anyone who openly disagrees with their agenda for any centre right politician to risk it. I believe that Luxon has strategically chosen to tread a line that doesn’t give a hint of a whisper of a thread that can be used to take his reputation down that path.
  
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  August 26, 2023 10:38am
- G the giant from Dunedin
  
  Why ? They have clearly stated they will get rid of all co governance in services, why even speculate?
  
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  August 26, 2023 12:31pm
Chuck Bird

Has anyone heard Seymour’s response to Luxon supporting first year uni fees free?
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August 26, 2023 8:16am
- Tricati
  
  If Luxon had said they will change it to final year fees he may have got some support.
  
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  August 26, 2023 8:27am
  - Taieri
    
    If Luxon had said they will change it to final year fees he may have got some support.
    ————–
    
    And make its application conditional on achieving a certain level of merit.
    
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    August 26, 2023 10:08am
  - NeverMindTheBollocks
    
    As long as the students who got first fees free don’t then qualify for last year fees free.
    
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    August 26, 2023 5:40pm
- Souvlaki
  
  Seymour has the high ground….again.
  We’re bust….& by any objective assessment…it is not a sound ” investment”…pffft…what is Nationals ridiculous rationale??🤪
  
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  August 26, 2023 8:31am
  - kiwikidsnz
    
    National’s rationale will be their usual “Don’t frighten the horses” – thats how they facilitate co government Trojan horses such as Finlayson for years.
    
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    August 26, 2023 8:38am
  - kowtow
    
    Supposedly the Nats have opposed this all along but now with an election imminent they suddenly flip flop .
    Rationale ? Must be what the latest focus groups are telling them.
    
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    August 26, 2023 8:48am
  - Benedict Yu
    
    Estimated impact on Crown debt in the first 4 years of the fees free scheme.
    
    $2.143 billion
    
    Official Information Act Response 20180225 – Fees-free Tertiary Policy https://treasury.govt.nz/sites/default/files/2018-07/oia-20180225.pdf
    
    That debt impact we will be ongoing every year, year after year, at about $500 million, forever.
    
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    August 26, 2023 9:08am
    - imalwaysright
      
      Benedict , your numbers may be based on the assumption that we have graduates from secondary school who are capable of tertiary study.
      
      There was a drop in students accepted for tertiary study this year, and there is no reason to expect better next year.
      
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      August 26, 2023 9:29am
      - imalwaysright
        
        Benedict, maybe the money for tertiary fees should be invested in dental care.
        At least then they won’t look like hillbillies .
        
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        August 26, 2023 9:58am
      - NeverMindTheBollocks
        
        Population trends are part of that. Mini baby boom working its way through the education system.
        
        Look for school amalgamation in the next few years.
        
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        August 26, 2023 5:42pm
- Geoff1
  
  ACT would scrap it
  https://www.act.org.nz/one_third_drop_out_rate_should_end_fees_free
  
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  August 26, 2023 8:44am
  - kowtow
    
    I wonder how much all of this is some sort of political theatre .
    
    Seymour , only a few months ago, said scrapping the firearms register was a bottom line , now maybe not so much.
    
    We’ll have to wait and see I suppose .
    
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    August 26, 2023 9:47am
- Benedict Yu
  
  Just the same nonsense, and just as I feared. Labour introduces a terrible policy, and that is what it is. Ruinously expensive, ineffective, and regressive. It should be gone.
  
  Yet here we go, National will ‘do it better’ or something. 🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬
  
  This won’t be the only abomination they will leave in place. They simply cannot be trusted to apply reason and fairness in formulating policy.
  
  Down the Argentinian road. 🇦🇷
  
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  August 26, 2023 8:54am
  - NZer In Exile
    
    Shit choices all round when you get out the magnifying glass. Just have to choose the least worst option. That is your mission.
    
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    August 26, 2023 1:47pm
Bridgenag

News of the Week: Another Episode
of the world has gone crazy.

https://open.substack.com/pub/rwmalonemd/p/news-of-the-week-another-episode?r=1aj1bv&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web
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August 26, 2023 8:20am
Close Hen Counters

My hubby has taken our youngest son to his American university SAT exam at Kristin school today – hundreds of kids were there and I would be very interested to know if this is more than previous …. Kids not wanting to go to NZ universities and doing the American thing instead? Our boy is doing his bit for sport primarily rather than thinking his academic degree will be better …. That’s if he gets in 🤞🏻
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August 26, 2023 8:23am
Bridgenag

a republic, if you can keep it
the greatest threat to liberty is not elected government, it’s the permanent state that has increasingly come to dominate it and shade our perceptions of reality

https://boriquagato.substack.com/?r=1aj1bv&utm_campaign=pub&utm_medium=web
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August 26, 2023 8:24am
Dougal10

The dumbing down of education continues. Our local boys school of about 450 is putting in a time table where they will start at 9am (because 8:40 am is too early for some of the little petals) do 4 x 1hr classes with a 20minute break at 11am . Then they will have lunch after that they will duck around doing kapa haka and other silly shit from 2 till 3 each day .
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August 26, 2023 8:25am
- CJames
  
  I disagree with your logic. Our local intermediate scool introduced a Y8 Boys class maybe 15 years ago. Invitation only, but aimed at all the disruptive children. The boys get regular “breaks”, but it is to do solid exercise.
  The results have been successful. The boys concentrate in the classroom, getting better marks than that of their earlier years, other classes don’t have the stressed teachers trying to maintain control and the boys learn coping mechanism to help them at high school and beyond.
  Just more proof that many boys have a totally different learning style and needs to those of girls.
  
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  August 26, 2023 9:39am
  - Dougal10
    
    I am talking year 9 to 13 high school. This is a whole school plan , they already cater for the non academic kids with special teachers/classes and subjects. No opportunity to do a sixth subject , completely dumbed down to the lowest common denominator ,the lazy little twat who turns up at 9 and skives off at 1:20. The teachers are also only having 4 hours face time with students a day .
    
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    August 26, 2023 11:16am
Bridgenag

Yuck….
Two German childcare centres in Nordrhein-Westfalen issue child sexuality manifestos, waxing poetic about the benefits of masturbation and outlining rules for child sexual play

“While I have no doubt the field of child sexual pedagogy is unusually depraved, I suspected the reports were exaggerated or lacking important context. In this, I was very wrong. I have spent about six hours exploring this very disturbing rabbit hole, and I need a shower. Maybe ten of them. Read the rest of this post at your own risk.”

https://www.eugyppius.com/p/two-german-childcare-centres-in-nordrhein?r=1aj1bv&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web
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August 26, 2023 8:28am
- Observer of Life
  
  Bridge: That just makes me feel sick.
  
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  August 26, 2023 11:13am
  - Bridgenag
    
    coming here soon no doubt
    
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    August 26, 2023 12:10pm
- artemisia
  
  Littlies do that but a childcare centre is surely not the place.
  
  I was told by an ECE worker that they were expected to ask the little one if it was OK to change the nappy. Not making a big deal of it. The idea was to instill early that consent is right and proper.
  
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  August 26, 2023 2:56pm
Colville

Foster sets another record..

Awesome.
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August 26, 2023 8:34am
In Vino Veritas

Have given up on the NZ v SA game at Twickenham at 28-0. Has to be the worst performance by an All Black team since I started watching in 1971. An embarrassment. Our coaches are a joke. Completely bereft of ideas – who could have predicted flat, aggressive outside-in defence at World Cup? I mean, it’s never happened before….. And our scrum has been predictably wrecked. Lomax, Newell and de Groot are no Joe Moodie’s and Jordie Barrett is a second fives arse.
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August 26, 2023 8:35am
- pdm
  
  Hard to argue IVV except that Ioane was as bad in the midfield.
  
  Forwards were poor overall with again no leadership from Cane – they were overwhelmed by the Boks and the scrum was an embarrassment.
  
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  August 26, 2023 10:34am
  - Opie
    
    Is cane the worst all blacks captain ever?
    
    6 1
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    August 26, 2023 11:37am
    - PeeJay
      
      Not if you read the player ratings. Great leadership in a losing fight etc. Honestly – if you read the one eyed ratings and formed an opinion on the result, you wouldn’t realised we’d just secured a record defeat!
      
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      August 26, 2023 1:28pm
- Dougal10
  
  The photo op they took will phil goff probably jinxed them.
  
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  August 26, 2023 11:22am
- Cinematic
  
  Jordie Barrett is the best second five the ABs have had since Nonu. The WC wasn’t on the line at Twickenham, in fact nothing was.
  
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  August 26, 2023 8:39pm
NeverMindTheBollocks

These West Indians seem very keen on financial reparations for slavery; no demand yet for the right to be returned to Africa. Funny, that.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/aug/25/guyanas-president-asks-european-slave-traders-descendants-to-pay-reparations/
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August 26, 2023 8:37am
- Dave
  
  But no demand that descendants of the African slave traders who supplied the slaves to Europeans pay reparations – strange.
  
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  August 26, 2023 10:18am
- sirknz
  
  Why not ask the original sellers for reparations?
  
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  August 26, 2023 2:55pm
  - Dave
    
    Why not etc…?
    
    The original sellers are dead, as are the original slaves; today’s descendants are often not descended solely from perpetrators or victims and the intervening generations have had mixed fortunes since the original crime of slavery. These facts make the notion of historical reparations to remedy historical injustice somewhat questionable.
    
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    August 26, 2023 4:00pm
pdm

Well I think we just saw the World Cup winners play – namely the Springboks who out played the All Blacks in every aspect of the game.

Sadly the All Blacks looked like a typical Foster prepared and coached team. Had it not been for Roigards fine individual try the All Blacks would have been lucky to get NIL.
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August 26, 2023 8:41am
- Biscuit
  
  Agreed, pdm.
  
  You know, I reckon that unless Foster and his team buck their game up 123456789% up there’s a GOOD chance he – Foster – won’t be the All Blacks coach for much longer…
  
  A bit more attention on ‘How to stay on the field for the whole Eighty’ might be more preferable to the focus the side puts on that – sorry if I offend anyone – inane and over-long pre-game war dance…
  
  Interesting that in a Sweepstake I run on the big sports games, 60% of the 275+ entries in thus far tip an All Blacks win over France in Game 1 of the 2023 RWC. Methinks there might be a few ‘Lemme CHANGE that’ emails headed my way before the comp begins…
  
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  August 26, 2023 9:32am
- Diogenes
  
  Ahhhh, this pre-World Cup game was a clever ruse by Mr Foster. Lull the other teams into a sense of false security.
  
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  August 26, 2023 10:08am
  - NK
    
    Who would you rather be right now, the Springboks or the ABs?
    
    I know my preference and the colour is green.
    
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    August 26, 2023 11:14am
    - Cinematic
      
      Sure, you go with the side with the overwhelming losing record against us. I’ll stick with the ABs.
      
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      August 26, 2023 8:38pm
imalwaysright

Watched an Electoral Commission advert on TV1 last night.

It was all in Maori.

No problem, it had subtitles .

All in Maori !
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August 26, 2023 8:42am
- JJ56
  
  An amusing sidelight on the Working Group on Managed Retreat mentioned above.
  
  Its sub title is ‘A Proposed System for Managed Retreat Te He Rauora/Planned Relocation’. This is conveniently translated into Maori, but strangely in that translation ‘Te He Rauora’ remains in Maori ….
  
  Limited self awareness operating there.
  
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  August 26, 2023 10:12am
- Grumpy Silver Haired Female
  
  Saw that. Aaargh!
  
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  August 26, 2023 10:43am
- OlderChas
  
  TV3 showing it too.
  
  7 0
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  August 26, 2023 10:49am
- Burtland
  
  get with it people – its for deaf maori !
  
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  August 26, 2023 12:15pm
- Steve Todd
  
  Hmm. Sounds like the ad is aimed at still-unenrolled Māori.
  
  Just a thought.
  
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  August 26, 2023 12:22pm
  - kowtow
    
    Were they offering kfc ?
    
    7 0
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    August 26, 2023 12:34pm
    - goNZ1
      
      Yep and a lunch with Seymour
      
      1 0
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      August 26, 2023 4:14pm
- Benedict Yu
  
  The subtitles are for deaf people who only speak Maori?
  
  6 0
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  August 26, 2023 12:28pm
- NZer In Exile
  
  And how many people honestly and genuinely use Maori as a first language in NZ? Who voted for forced immersion Maori language? If a party thinks there is a case for making NZ bilingual, go through the proper democratic methods of getting that introduced via the education system. Personally I think there are far more important priorities and this is just the minority woke fascists forcing their sanctimony on everyone else.
  
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  August 26, 2023 1:51pm
Che Guava

With the excellent mugshot they’ve given Trump, he has now ascended into the realm of symbol and icon, representing hope and the possibility of resistance to entrenched corruption and tyranny, if he hadn’t already.
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August 26, 2023 8:46am
- Biscuit
  
  I dunno, Che…
  
  Okay, I get it that The Donald reckoned he didn’t lose in 2020…
  
  And even me – regularly accused in here of suffering from Trump Derangement Syndrome, sniff – leans s-l-i-g-h-t-l-y to his way of thinking there…
  
  But…
  
  Exactly what changes have been made to the US votng systen that give (Ex) President Trump the confidence that no similar shenanigans will happen in just over 14 months time?
  
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  August 26, 2023 9:40am
  - Che Guava
    
    None really. But if they thought they could beat him again by ballot fraud alone, they wouldn’t still be so desperate to take him out by abusing the legal system. They probably thought he’d just go away after they stole the 2020 election, but they continue to underestimate the man and his unwavering support base.
    
    His supporters will have to fight fire with fire and harvest ballots in his favour the same way that the Establishment did in Biden’s favour in 2020.
    
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    August 26, 2023 9:45am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Similar shenanigans will happen, you can bet your bottom dollar.
    More security to stop ballot drops in the middle of the night. More scrutineers watching the counters and machines not being fed twice. Kicking out Republicans and covering the windows was a joke, where were the Police? Don’t remember what State and County.
    The Democrats are very desperate. Trump needs to watch his back. Presidents have been assassinated. The Dems don’t want to lose their swamp.
    
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    August 26, 2023 11:32am
    - Biscuit
      
      Mmm, Steve.
      
      I’m not sure that Trump is under threat of assassination – although 4 of 46 Presidents thus far being removed from office that way doesn’t inspire a great deal of confidence – but my point was that who can really have any faith in the US electoral system any more.
      
      Just suppose – bear with me! – that your man loses the 2024 election.
      Will he go away quietly?
      Or will he go deep into the next four year Presidential term bemoaning the crooked system as he has this current four years?
      
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      August 26, 2023 11:55am
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        HE WON’T LOSE
        
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        August 26, 2023 4:48pm
    - mawm
      
      “The Dems don’t want to lose their swamp.”
      
      I don’t think Mitch and his beneficiaries want to either.
      
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      August 26, 2023 2:51pm
- artemisia
  
  Alex Berenson on Trump –
  
  “Donald Trump has felt the boot of the government on his neck. And he is angry . …..On the coming radicalism of Donald J. Trump. The indictments have fueled him. If he wins in 2024, his second Presidency will marry that personal fury with a conservative attack on the administrative state to remake the government radically.”
  
  https://alexberenson.substack.com/p/on-the-coming-radicalism-of-donald
  
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  August 26, 2023 10:19am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    After 2020 he will double down.
    
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    August 26, 2023 11:35am
NeverMindTheBollocks

“The ongoing failure to deliver affordable private rental makes a strong case to focus new spending on longer-term solutions such as social housing, incentives to build new affordable housing and shared equity rental …”

The very definition of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/money/2023/08/population-growth-outstripping-affordable-rentals-child-poverty-action-group-report-warns.html
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August 26, 2023 8:54am
- artemisia
  
  DINKYs (double income no kids yet) do have a shot at stable housing before the planned babies arrive. Even if it starts out as a 1 beddie do up unit in the burbs after 5 years saving up.
  
  They are the ones to be supported and congratulated. Those who make different choices though ….
  
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  August 26, 2023 10:12am
- Taieri
  
  The population growth is outstripping not just the supply of affordable and adequate housing. It affects virtually all infrastructure. And where does this growth come from? The original authors of the massive immigration programme obviously never took into account the fact that the future New Zealanders not yet in this country will need to be housed, educated, treated when sick and so on. All politicians in the last 30 years, including the current crop are guilty of this oversight.
  
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  August 26, 2023 10:14am
  - artemisia
    
    Fewer people on welfare, less immigration.
    
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    August 26, 2023 10:56am
  - mawm
    
    T – we should be blaming the UN “Global Compact for Immigration” primarily and then the NZ government for not making the necessary infrastructure development and a program to get the best and brightest prior to participating in it.
    
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    August 26, 2023 2:56pm
  - artemisia
    
    Landlords like immigrants. There are plenty of them and not hard to choose good ones. Locals not so much.
    
    We’ve rented to many over the years. Never ever a dud, and quite often recommend another from their community when they are leaving.
    
    The influx of immigrants has to be increasing the rental demand.
    
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    August 26, 2023 4:22pm
Maggy Wassilieff

Will the Nats continue to play sneaky buggers with co-governance?

Is it too late to return to old-fashioned democracy…. one person/one vote?

https://pointofordernz.wordpress.com/2023/08/25/graham-adams-hipkins-insists-theres-nothing-to-fear-in-co-governance/
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August 26, 2023 8:55am
- Chris Nisbet
  
  Did Hipkins say there’s “nothing to fear” about co-governance, or “nothing too fair”?
  
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  August 26, 2023 9:08am
- oldpark
  
  Check out latest Super National Party Pamphlet.
  @Maggy Wassilieff 8.55am .
  Under the defined heading .
  “Local Water Done Well.”
  
  Repealing the undemocratic Three Waters and replacing it with a plan that will keep water assets in local control and require strict water quality standards .
  
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  August 26, 2023 9:18am
  - kowtow
    
    does it include “meaningful consultation” with persons based on race characteristics.
    Cos it it does it still breaches fundamental principles of democracy.
    
    14 2
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    August 26, 2023 9:53am
    - oldpark
      
      @kowtow . 9.53 am
      
      Answer is NO! Check out well defined National Party carved in stone Promises with the heading .
      
      “BACK ON TRACK:Even reads Tax cuts as well .With a host of definitive statements to make NZ “A Democratic Nation Once Again” .
      
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      August 26, 2023 10:20am
      - kowtow
        
        The devil is in the detail.
        The Nat pamphlet says clearly “no co governance” but points specifically to the c4ld document which states ;
        
        We’re Communities 4 meaningful Mana Whenua representation.
        The Government’s proposal is a poor solution for Mana Whenua, offering the same watered down representation that councils are being offered. We want to build on existing local relationships with Mana Whenua to offer real and meaningful partnership.’
        
        How then then does ‘real and meaningful partnership ” with race groups fit in with the basic principles of democracy.
        
        I fear that Luxon speaks with fork tongue.
        
        or put another way ; co governance dressed up as “partnership”
        
        or how “full and final” morphed into perpetual incrementalism.
        
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        August 26, 2023 10:51am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Nothing to fear in co-governance?
  You know he tells lies right
  
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  August 26, 2023 11:37am
- NZer In Exile
  
  Winston is actually the clearest on this stuff as far as I can see. He needs to assure everyone this time he won’t be playing kingmaker shenanigans. Also lay out his terms and conditions for coalition up front and stick to them.
  
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  August 26, 2023 3:05pm
  - G the giant from Dunedin
    
    He can never be trusted
    
    1 1
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    August 26, 2023 8:27pm
Maggy Wassilieff

Oh Dear..

The MSM is in decline…

and poor old RNZ is losing listeners…

The RNZ National total audience slide has been notable over the past three years. In 2000, it topped all the commercial stations with 703,000 weekly listeners and as recently as a year ago was a full hundred thousand higher than it has recorded in this latest survey.

Gosh!, I wonder why.

But fear not….a new Independent (rofl) body has arisen:

On Tuesday night about 100 media industry leaders or stakeholders gathered in Auckland for the official launch of a new industry body, Independent Media Agencies New Zealand (IMANZ).

https://www.newsroom.co.nz/nzme-good-times-are-august-around-the-corner
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August 26, 2023 9:03am
- Taieri
  
  a new Independent (rofl) body has arisen
  ———-
  
  Any entity set up by and with its membership appointed by the Government is by definition not independent.
  
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  August 26, 2023 10:16am
- kiwikidsnz
  
  I nominate Sean Plunket for the next Chair of the Broadcasting Standards Authority
  
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  August 26, 2023 10:28am
Andrew Worth

https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/132800611/lion-cub-held-by-tail-at-rotorua-wildlife-park-mpi-investigating-treatment-of-exotic-animals

Apparently lion cubs are as delicate as kiwis according to vet association head Dr Helen Beattie.
It’s people like her that lead to these attractions being shur down.
Personally I suspect a lion cub would eat a kiwi for breakfast.
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August 26, 2023 9:03am
- Matt Long
  
  How long before the Vet Association decrees Treaty Education courses for all animal owners?
  
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  August 26, 2023 10:32am
Jack5

Stuff’s feminazerati are still making a mountain out of the worm cast that is Tim van de Molen’s incident in a Parliamentary committee.

They must be finding bugger all else to dig up about National.

There’s to be a censure by Parliament, just like Winston Peters incurred 15 years ago . Who, except Wellington politics junkies, know or remember or care about that? It’s just a pub quiz fact-ette.

In Stuff’s description today: van de Molen will be “censured” with a a “formal public sanction” by Parliament.

Perhaps editors trimmed a next sentence that included “Guy Fawkes” or “Julius Caesar”.

Next Tuesday and Wednesday the Labour-subsidised media will shout about, then pontificate over, this little incident.

Voters will glance, or half-hear for a few seconds.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/132818438/tim-van-de-molen-the-anatomy-of-a-complaint
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August 26, 2023 9:13am
- nathie
  
  I saw on the Parliament tv or on demand page the 23 June meeting of the transport and infrastructure select committee a few days ago. Whilst it doesn’t show the incident, there is one video of Tim van de Molen trying to ask questions but with what sounds like Labour’s Shanan Halbert preventing him.
  
  Haven’t been able to find the video since (their search engine sucks) – hopefully someone else can?
  
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  August 26, 2023 9:48am
  - nathie
    
    Actually I stand to be corrected, it was on their FB feed and at around 29′ – upon replay it didn’t seem to be bad as I had wrote above, it was Halbert seeking clarification (over talking) van de Molen but not the end of the world.
    https://www.facebook.com/TISCNZ/videos/202324-estimates-for-vote-building-and-construction-hearing-of-evidence-22-june-/245324558203862/
    But anyway was this the same meeting or another on that day where the so-called incident occurred? Seems “odd” that a junior Minister from Labour would complain some two months later …
    
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    August 26, 2023 10:34am
    - BeaB
      
      Not odd. It was a hit job. They’re a nasty lot, Labour.
      Interesting that the meeting carried on to a second session with everyone still there. Even the sissy Halbert.
      I reckon Tim will get an even bigger majority. , thanks to sneak Rachel Boyack.
      
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      August 26, 2023 11:04am
    - DimChappie
      
      The incident with van de Molen and Halbert was following a meeting on June 29. There is a video from that date on Facebook but nothing suggesting great tension between them. Molen asks a roading question and Halbert offers to “show a count” at one stage, perhaps a tally of who got to ask questions.
      
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      August 26, 2023 2:15pm
- Tauhei Notts
  
  Over the past few days I have joined National Party stalwarts from the likes of Te Aroha, Morrinsville and Matamata. They are all in agreement; anybody threatened by the most inoffensive gentleman they have all ever met, viz Tim van der Molen; well that offended person must have a huge problem.
  I joked that the offended one did have a problem; the same problem the Nelsonian Nymph who lodged the complaint has; what will they do for a living after 14th October.
  
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  August 26, 2023 10:13am
Rusty

The All Blacks looked second rate against the Boks this morning and probably should have lost by 40 points.

There were signs in the previous match against the Wallabies in Dunedin that fans and critics overlooked when the ABs were under pressure.

Got to put the Boks, Ireland, and France ahead of the ABs for RWC winners unless Foster can turn it around.
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August 26, 2023 9:16am
- Burtland
  
  Foster has turned it around -worst loss in history
  
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  August 26, 2023 12:31pm
- G the giant from Dunedin
  
  Don’t forget the game in Dunedin was a B team, as soon as reserves came on they flicked the switch
  
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  August 26, 2023 8:30pm
rangitoto

Liam Lawson to drive for AlphaTauri at the Dutch GP after Daniel Ricciardo has broken metacarpal from a Free Practice 2 incident.
15 0
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August 26, 2023 9:29am
Maggy Wassilieff

Just another Friday Night in ~~Chicago~~ Auckland…..

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2023/08/two-drive-by-shootings-in-auckland-overnight.html
32 1
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August 26, 2023 9:30am
- Biscuit
  
  I blame those Tennis-playing thugesses, Maggy!
  
  13 0
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  August 26, 2023 9:34am
- Ghost
  
  “We Will Buy Them Back And We Will Destroy Them” – PM Jacinda Ardern
  
  18 0
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  August 26, 2023 9:36am
  - Matt Long
    
    It’s not the number of guns in a society, it’s the number of gun using criminals that aren’t incarcerated.
    
    19 0
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    August 26, 2023 10:35am
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      Special K doesn’t want them in jail.
      
      7 1
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      August 26, 2023 11:45am
- NZer In Exile
  
  Dame J’s incredibly brave confiscation of guns from the law abiding worked out well didn’t it?!!
  
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  August 26, 2023 3:07pm
CAKE FACE1

A lot of articles comparing Nationals high donations, compared to Labour’s pathetic donations. Is this unfair?

What these articles don’t mention is the fact that the Labour government spent over $500 million on media “advertising”, and about $125 million on the PJIF.

The donations to National are a tiny fraction of the amount invested by Labour into the media…
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August 26, 2023 9:31am
- kiwikidsnz
  
  & then there’s “Broadcast integration”…
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZu55jNoM-E
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gE7-G-OBqMw
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NzeO_cZ3SY
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMPAvnfta5k
  
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  August 26, 2023 10:05am
- Chris Nisbet
  
  I suppose that this ‘unfair’ funding means we’re not far away from being inflicted with stories about how government (i.e taxpayers) need to fund political parties even more than they do already.
  
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  August 26, 2023 10:30am
Ghost

Wonderful……. Maybe it’s time we just get rid of the justice system, it really seems a waste of time having it……

A repeat child sex offender who cut off his electronic tracking bracelet and sexually abused a 16-month-old toddler while on parole has had his prison sentence slashed on appeal.

Article
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August 26, 2023 9:33am
- Gravelroad
  
  Once again the rights of the criminal’s potential to be rehabilitated and have a happy life are more important to the judiciary than the well being and potential of the victim.
  And the needy woman who took this guy in to live with her and her kids wants to reassess her priorities.
  
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  August 26, 2023 10:00am
- jon
  
  Ghost, stuff these ankle bracelets, replace with a ball and chain, that would truly restrict these low lifes from free ranging out into the community!
  
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  August 26, 2023 10:46am
thirteenstars

And the Trump mugshot memes keep getting better:

https://twitter.com/barnes_law/status/1694894994501304504/photo/1
17 0
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August 26, 2023 9:34am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Wonder how long it will last on my Facebook?
  
  5 1
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  August 26, 2023 10:33am
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Errol Musk.
Ukraine run by a former stand up comedian.
Bioweapons labs? Things could go all pear shaped.

https://thepoliticalmovement.com/2023/08/25/errol-musk-speaks-out-against-ukraine-yes-thats-elons-dad/
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August 26, 2023 9:41am
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Biden wants America destroyed.
Climate Change Initiatives Benefit Blue Collar Workers.

https://buzzbombmedia.com/2023/08/25/whoopsie-new-study-destroys-bidens-claims-that-climate-change-initiatives-benefit-blue-collar-workers/
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August 26, 2023 9:44am
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Trump’s first tweet.

https://dailypresser.com/theoneadmin/trump-makes-first-tweet-after-surrendering-in-georgia-election-case-releasing-mugshot/

Then statement from his website:

I was ARRESTED despite having committed NO CRIME.
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August 26, 2023 9:56am
- virtualmark
  
  Well, beyond trying to criminally pervert the due election process, defraud Americans of their rightful votes etc etc.
  
  But sure, if you just go ask inmates they’ll tell you that prisons are full of people who committed no crimes.
  
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  August 26, 2023 2:35pm
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Nurse, nurse, medication spat out,
    
    2 1
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    August 26, 2023 4:51pm
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Stop Co-Governance. Julian Batchelor.

https://www.stopcogovernance.kiwi/blog/maori-leaders-you-have-nothing-to-fear-with-co-governance-yeah-right/

“We have nothing to fear except fear itself!”
President Roosevelt
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August 26, 2023 10:16am
Suze Wainwright

So are David Cormack’s murmurings on X that latest poll results are showing a bounce for Labour to the extent that the left bloc now leads the right bloc (Greens polling ahead of ACT) true (albeit with NZ First holding the balance of power)?

Or is he just trying to create some Twitter merry mischief with ‘leaked’ Talbot Mills (or possibly even Horizon) internal polling..?
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August 26, 2023 10:34am
- JJ56
  
  “A further morale booster was delivered on Friday when Labour’s internal polling landed, taken a bit later than 1News. That is understood to have Labour at 32 per cent and National at 34 – with the Greens on 11, Act on 10, NZ First at a healthy 6 and Te Pāti Māori on 4. NZ First would be the likely kingmaker.
  
  “That poll was circulated more widely than usual around Labour, due to the more heartening news it contained. It allows people to convince themselves that the 1News poll was a snapshot in time rather than the end times.”
  
  Claire Trevett, NZ Herald site today.
  
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  August 26, 2023 2:40pm
  - G the giant from Dunedin
    
    And it’s a load of shit, just like when Cunliffe was in the leadership, had labour often on 38 % only to kick them in the stats a few days latter putting them at 25%
    
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    August 26, 2023 8:35pm
  - jon
    
    That Talbot/Mills poll from Friday, now published on Polls NZ, shows it as a private poll, obviously meaning its a Labour internal poll but interestingly, unlike usual Talbot/Mills polls shown on this site, it doesnt indicate how many people were polled. Strange that figure has been omitted this time!
    
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    August 26, 2023 8:36pm
Pineapple Lumps

Hi KBers

Please take part in a Poll on these Political Policies – uptick if you agree with them, downtick if you disagree:

– We will build a sovereign New Zealand
– We will be free from Global Control (UN, WHO, WEF + more)
– We will enshrine the NZ Bill of Rights so it has supreme law status
– We will restore true democracy to the people
– We will protect Freedom of Speech
– We will provide compensation for those who are vaccine injured
– We will provide restoration and remuneration for mandated workers
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August 26, 2023 10:49am
- Ghost
  
  Brian Tamaki can claim all he wants, he’s never going to be in a position to do anything.
  
  14 1
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  August 26, 2023 11:11am
  - Pineapple Lumps
    
    Play the ball not the man
    
    5 6
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    August 26, 2023 11:14am
    - Ghost
      
      It’s not playing the man it is a fact, he will never be in a position to do any of this, it’s just another case of a small party throwing out everything they want knowing full well that they will never achieve anything they promise. If they got anyone into parliament none of this would pass any negotiations if they ever got on a ramp, and they won’t get on the ramp.
      
      12 1
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      August 26, 2023 11:23am
      - NZer In Exile
        
        Admit it. You dislike Tamaki because he’s a vocal trad values male leader and an evangelical Christian.
        
        I’m an agnostic but I support the listed goals. That’s what the question was about. Christians often do good charity work (he certainly has) but in my experience they are just as f’d up as human beings as the rest of us.
        
        6 2
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        August 26, 2023 2:01pm
      - Ghost
        
        No, I dislike minor parties who put forward policies that will never see the light of day. I also think that the parties should announce their partners before the election, work out what policies from each they will keep and campaign on them instead of a bunch of policies that will be dropped in the negations after the election
        
        2 1
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        August 26, 2023 2:10pm
      - Pineapple Lumps
        
        The fact is I asked for your views on the policies not your views on minor parties or Brian Tamakai.
        
        Fact is you are playing the man not the ball.
        
        1 1
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        August 26, 2023 2:46pm
      - Ghost
        
        And my views are the policies are worthless because they will never get into parliament and if they get someone in, then nothing will come of them because they will never be in a position to be part of a government, that’s not playing the man, that is just being honest. Your attempt to claim it is playing the man is just hiding from reality.
        
        And that is the problem with people who are rushing around supporting these nothing parties that won’t get into parliament, who can promise anything because if by chance they get someone in, nothing they promise will ever eventuate.
        
        Shit you might as well bring back the McGillicuddy Serious Party
        
        Your choices this election are labour\greens\maori party or national\act, where Winston will go only Winston knows. Anyone other party is just an illusion and a wasted vote.
        
        4 2
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        August 26, 2023 3:09pm
      - Pineapple Lumps
        
        We would only have Labour and National parties if everyone had followed your reasoning over the years Ghost.
        
        I agree that a vote for Democracy NZ will not result in these policies coming into being after this election. But that doesn’t make it a wasted vote. Voting for parties that are going to take NZ further away from where I want it to be is a bigger waste of a vote. Vote labour lite so you don’t have labour has some logic but it isn’t going to make NZ great again.
        
        You are not telling me how to vote anymore than G from Dunedin. I’ll make my own decision on that. I will be voting for the party and candidate that most align to the direction I want NZ to go in. Anything else is a wasted vote.
        
        2 2
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        August 26, 2023 4:04pm
      - G the giant from Dunedin
        
        Anyone even mentioning Tamaki is a nut bar, no wonder the country is screaming to the bottom
        
        0 0
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        August 26, 2023 8:38pm
    - NZer In Exile
      
      “No, I dislike minor parties who put forward policies that will never see the light of day.”
      
      You would have hated early ACT then? How do you think small parties become bigger parties?
      
      You haven’t actually stated whether you support the listed POLICIES or not.
      
      “I also think that the parties should announce their partners before the election, work out what policies from each they will keep and campaign on them instead of a bunch of policies that will be dropped in the negations after the election”
      
      Agree. That should be law.
      
      8 1
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      August 26, 2023 2:33pm
      - cmm
        
        No it should not be law.
        If they want to undermine their brand then fine.
        
        1 1
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        August 26, 2023 2:49pm
      - Ghost
        
        Restore true democracy, restore freedom of speech, have we ever had those to restore or just the illusion of them?
        
        We will be free from global control. Seriously the only way most of that list will happen is through a global event that resets everything.
        
        1 0
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        August 26, 2023 3:18pm
  - Swifty
    
    I refuse to have anything to do with a man who regularly tells his followers that a god routinely speaks to him and issues him instructions. That he has a special connection to this god that no one else, or few others, has or have.
    
    I certainly won’t ever vote for him for any position of authority. He is clearly not to be trusted.
    
    The man is one of New Zealand’s great charlatans. He lies for money on a daily basis. He lies to children.
    
    He takes enormous sums of money from poor New Zealand families and lavishes it on himself, his wife and their family.
    
    He should be reviled. Derided. And certainly never looked to for guidance or leadership.
    
    15 2
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    August 26, 2023 2:05pm
    - Pineapple Lumps
      
      I would say that he enriches more lives than you Swifty.
      
      2 8
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      August 26, 2023 3:01pm
      - Swifty
        
        ‘Enriches’.
        
        That’s an interesting take on what Tamaki does.
        
        Surely you mean misleads. Fills with false hope. Deceives with false promises.
        
        The only people Bishop Brian enriches is himself and his whanau.
        
        4 0
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        August 26, 2023 6:15pm
- Benedict Yu
  
  “We will be free from Global Control”.
  
  I’m suspicious when folk assign capital letters like that.
  
  AFAIK, the UN has never coerced New Zealand to do anything. It is all voluntary. For example, every climate change commitment in the UNFCCC. All voluntary.
  
  I’m happy to be corrected.
  
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  August 26, 2023 12:36pm
  - cmm
    
    Technically correct but belonging to UN does apply some peer pressure which our political class are eager to go along with.
    
    5 1
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    August 26, 2023 2:47pm
  - Pineapple Lumps
    
    Coercion comes in many forms. We were never forced to wear a mask or take the mRNA treatment — but most people felt they had no choice but to do these things.
    
    Our Government has been happy to sign up for WHO to take control of future pandemics. I’d prefer to retain sovereignty of decision making in NZ – not some global organisation who has zero accountability to the people of NZ.
    
    4 1
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    August 26, 2023 3:54pm
- G the giant from Dunedin
  
  Not one policy their about running the country, the WEF bullshit, the returning democracy crap is simply a wish, vote this rotten regime out snd these things will happen
  
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  August 26, 2023 8:37pm
Steve Otto(North Shore)

What Chinese products can you do without?
I’ll go first:
Joe Biden.
11 2
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August 26, 2023 11:59am
- kowtow
  
  covid
  
  9 0
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  August 26, 2023 12:15pm
- Burtland
  
  iphone?
  
  2 2
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  August 26, 2023 12:46pm
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Shit, my phone is …
    
    1 1
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    August 26, 2023 4:54pm
- NZer In Exile
  
  Totalitarianism.
  
  3 0
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  August 26, 2023 2:34pm
- virtualmark
  
  Steve, might be simpler to ask what Chinese product could you *not* do without.
  
  5 0
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  August 26, 2023 2:37pm
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    OK, you win.
    But you are still posting…..
    
    1 1
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    August 26, 2023 4:55pm
Jack5

Stuff has a whack at ACT’s Seymour for his reference to Nelson Mandela.

The report is described as being funded by NZ on Air, which used to be called the Broadcasting Commission. That means it’s ultimately financed by the Labour Government.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300958418/would-nelson-mandela-have-campaigned-for-the-act-party-not-according-to-his-grandson
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August 26, 2023 1:23pm
- Ghost
  
  Interesting, I thought the Public Interest Journalism had finished now, shouldn’t be used for hit jobs
  
  7 0
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  August 26, 2023 1:35pm
  - NZer In Exile
    
    Apparently the dirtbag media still get tons of lovely taxpayer dosh by running ads for the govt.
    
    9 1
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    August 26, 2023 2:36pm
- I remember when
  
  And a check of the ACT Party List shows that he isn’t.
  
  Of course he doesn’t qualify anyway!
  
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  August 26, 2023 1:51pm
- cmm
  
  If Seymour did say that then it is a supremely stupid thing to say.
  
  Mandela was a communist. Why would he have supported Act?
  And why the hell would Act be trying to get the thumbs up from a commie?
  
  It’s even more extreme than saying “if Rod Donald was alive today he would vote for Act.”
  
  Stupid lose-lose thing to say.
  
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  August 26, 2023 2:44pm
- Benedict Yu
  
  It was a stupid thing for Seymour to say. He doesn’t need to say weird things – he is not good at it. He is best when he hammers home facts.
  
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  August 26, 2023 3:50pm
- Inandout
  
  Jack, this Stuff employee line up gives a picture of where some sit politically.
  https://www.stuff.co.nz/about-stuff/300153543/meet-stuffs-senior-editorial-team
  
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  August 26, 2023 4:01pm
  - Jack5
    
    From the post by “Inandout” about the Stuff senior editorial team:
    
    Simon [Simon Plumb, Stuff’s “Commissioning Editor”] has been Stuff’s representative on the Media and Courts Committee since March 2023. Chaired by Justice Simon Moore, the committee includes High Court judges and senior news leaders from Stuff, RNZ, TVNZ, Newshub, NZME and the Aotearoa Media Collective.
    
    A Leftist media block of the State owned and the State subsidised.
    
    The “Aotearoa Media Collective” comprises two people: Mihingaarangi Forbes and Annabelle Lee-Mather. Their web site says: “We tell current affairs stories that highlight Maori issues from Maori perspectives.”
    
    The TV programme “The Casketeers” is the work of Lee-Mather.
    
    Scroll down on this link and you can read about the Media and Courts Committee:
    
    https://www.courtsofnz.govt.nz/about-the-judiciary/judicial-committees/#SCMC
    
    And here you can read about the Aotearoa Media Collective:
    
    https://aotearoamedia.co.nz/
    
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    August 26, 2023 7:31pm
Chuck Bird

National claim this is not an issue. I say it is. What do others think?

National’s PC stance alienates the very sector it needs to attract

https://theplatform.kiwi/opinions/national-s-pc-stance-alientates-the-very-sector-it-needs-to-attract
7 1
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August 26, 2023 1:43pm
I remember when

Alwyn Poole’s statistics for New Zealand’s secondary school system recently made me wonder about possible non-achievement issues.
Is there any government department ensuing that the children in emergency housing are being urgently monitored to ensure their education occurs?
Is nothing else, the social contact, and where they are available, free school lunches would be a step in the right direction.
This has to be the starting point for, as L V Martin used to say, putting it right.
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August 26, 2023 1:47pm
Mr T

Aucklanders may like to read how Auckland Council proposes to bring in Maori representation by Don Brash on Hobsons Choice.
Have your say.

Hobson’s Pledge

Māori seats for Auckland Council

[Mod – fixed, sorry about that]
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August 26, 2023 1:57pm
- Mr T
  
  Thanks mod, but link to the specific Auckland Council has gone.
  
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  August 26, 2023 2:24pm
mogg

I have just spoken to Ginny Andersen at our local market
. Me ‘Why did you say that “no Māori should be in prison” when we have rampant levels of crime and repeat offending.
Her reply, “I didn’t say that”
Me “Yes you did it was reported by every media outlet”
Her “It has been misinterpreted”
Me “you’re lying, you are an incompetent minister in a ridiculous government”.
Her “we need to identify neglected children when they are 12 yrs old……blah blah blah.
16 0
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August 26, 2023 2:11pm
I remember when

Collateral damage is just so much more meaningful when flying in Russia.
8 0
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August 26, 2023 3:27pm
Southern Raider

Just listening to ZB discussion on how Govt paid TVNZ to run a series on climate change and they got paid $300K. None of this was disclosed before each section run on TVNZ

Included articles on OneNews, Breakfast and 7Sharp discussions and a 1 hour documentary

Getting more and more like Russia each day
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August 26, 2023 4:00pm
- Chris Nisbet
  
  As part of their response to Sean Plunket when he enquired about this the PR person said that this has been going on for some time, as if that somejow made it better.
  
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  August 26, 2023 6:02pm
Jack5

Time harness racing cleaned out the rats:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/300958450/auckland-man-failed-to-feed-his-horses-leaving-them-to-eat-their-own-faeces
4 0
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August 26, 2023 5:30pm
kevn

Sthn… ZB, so should guarantee plenty of coverage showing the seedy labour tactic,
1 0
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August 26, 2023 5:31pm
NZer In Exile

Meme regarding the Biden Banana Republic harassment of Trump:

https://twitter.com/jsolom100/status/1687097033877037056/photo/1
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August 26, 2023 8:49pm
NZer In Exile

Ring any bells?

https://twitter.com/jsolom100/status/1611203507691954179/photo/1
4 1
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August 26, 2023 9:01pm

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